"Santorum/Ryan agree: U.S. Upward Mobility worse than Europe"

Great headline.

Clearly what is need is more tax cuts for the 1% to help.

“most Western European and English-speaking nations have higher rates of mobility.”

Why is Santorum a Socialist?

Clearly what is need is more tax cuts for the 1% to help.

#2 | Posted by 726

That's right.. We're obviously still not doing enough for the job creators.

Why is this important when Sarah Palin has a new hairdo? herm

Americuns is just lazee.

#6 that may have some truth to it. Comparing income mobility, accurately, would have to take into account the culture of motivation and hard work. I'd venture to say that large segments of Americans, and Germans, would differ drastically.

But the big reason stopping income mobility? Go to NY or CA, and try to grow an apple or raise a cow and sell the juice or milk, legally. Tell me how long it takes you, how much it costs, and the amount of paperwork and cash it takes to hire a legal immigrant to help you.

"Government is the problem, not the solution."

I am related to a few folks who were born into a middle class family but have managed to moved themselves DOWN to the poor class.

They are all lazy. all of them. and they have done nothing but make bad choices on top of being lazy.

Why would most of them want to move up anyway? Think about it.....why work to live in the middle class when you can get taken care of and do nothing?

or is this stat just a product of our unemployment figures right now?

if so, then this trend will reverse once unemployment improves.......if not..then it's becuase we have more lazy people here than anywhere else in the world.

I'm going with lazy, personally.

We are fat and we don't care.

The largest driving factor is a loss of jobs amid a growing population. Sweden's population has been stable at 10 million for forty years. Demand for labor comparatively high and no one spends time in Court suing over workplace pollution or safety. Business, labor and Government cooperate. Here they litigate endlessly.

Do the mobility thing the way libs push black people into jobs they are not qualified for or into houses they can't afford - Affirmative Action/Diversity. It's a beautiful thing and it works. Just because people are stupid and lazy they shouldn't be held back.

Do the mobility thing the way libs push black people into jobs they are not qualified for or into houses they can't afford - Affirmative Action/Diversity. It's a beautiful thing and it works. Just because people are stupid and lazy they shouldn't be held back.

Posted by fwthom at 2012-01-05 02:39 PM

Did FWthom just say Black people were stupid and lazy?

Did FWthom just say Black people were stupid and lazy?

all my relatives I referenced are white.

Race is not the cause of our laziness problem.

I'm going with lazy, personally.

We are fat and we don't care.

#8 | Posted by eberly

Are you serious or just trolling again?

Speak for yourself.

Americans generally are not at all lazy.

WE as a group are quite productive. It is just that our wages do not reflect this anymore.

"I feel obliged" of course

I'm going with lazy, personally.

We are fat and we don't care.

#8 | Posted by eberly at 2012-01-05 02:28 PM | Reply | Flag:

I'm one left-leaner who is not afraid to say that this is, in fact, part of the problem. But it's not just blacks, it's not just liberals, it's not just poor people. While some of us have gotten the message the past few years and are changing our ways, America did get seriously complacent. We rely too much on cars, gadgets, and mindless entertainment too much. We eat cheese doodles and watch TV and play video games and waste our time on trivia. We live above our means. We expect a high standard of living no matter what external factors might be confronting us. We sacrifice nothing while our soldiers fight in two-plus wars.

Complacency sets in whenever anyone is at the top, or comfortable, for an extended period of time. This is why term limits are good. This is why competition is good. This is why change, like a new job, is good now and then. Stay hungry, stay busy, do something that matters.

That said, the gap between the very rich and the very poor is growing, and I don't think yanking the safety net at the bottom end and reducing taxes for the top end, especially right now, are serving us well.

The question is...why don't our wages reflect this increase in productivity?

could it be because productivity has increased solely because of technological advances and not because of actual harder work?

We had a comfortable middle class, their kids were taken care of, and now they take everything for granted, where work is a necessity and not a joy. We're just reaping what we sowed. In twenty years, you'll have either a bunch of motivated low-income aspirational people eager to do something for once, or a bunch of bitter low-income people despising success and screaming for more.

Donner, I really don't know what you do for a living but I work with real live business owners every day.

I shared this recently.....a manufacturing business client of mine had 8 openings (3 months ago).

they STILL can't fill them because nobody can pass a drug test or can't produce a drivers license.

these job openings are decent..$15/hr which is good for this part of the country and it included benefits.

there is no reason whatsoever whey these positions can't be filled...plently of applicants....just none that are any good.

we have a TON of unemployable people out there.

Posted by adammm at 2012-01-05 02:59 PM | Reply

I'll wager the latter... Think PIIGS, except with printing presses - Sort of like a hybrid of Greece and Weimar.

Should be fun.

I know this may be a bitter pill for some leftists to swallow, but true "hard workers" are indeed a rare find.

I'm not call everyone else lazy...I'm referring to real hard workers.

To be honest....I'm not a real hard worker either so I'm not saying this to be an asshole.

We rely too much on cars, gadgets, and mindless entertainment too much. We eat cheese doodles and watch TV and play video games and waste our time on trivia. We live above our means. We expect a high standard of living no matter what external factors might be confronting us. We sacrifice nothing while our soldiers fight in two-plus wars.

Exactly. And to add to that...I know concerns are expressed about what jobs our soldiers will get when they get home.

That will be a problem but not the problem many think.

Most employers will have a spot for a veteran....not because they are veterans but rather because they are "workers".

we have a TON of unemployable people out there.

#18 | POSTED BY EBERLY AT 2012-01-05 03:04 PM | REPLY | FLAG:

These same people could own you on any Xbox or playstation game. They could also tell you what is going on with the Kardashians. Just don't expect them to be able to balance a check book.

Generally speaking real 1% success in the USA has become limited to ethnicity, resulting cronyism, family money and networks that provide access to the best schools. A very few others have exceptional innate ability or a lot of luck such as winning the lottery or American Idol. You think not? Then demographically examine the 1% by religious heritage, race, education, geographic location, etc. for commonality relative to the populace?

Your success depends upon it. Success is not just about ability. It has become a club and you're either in it or not. Just as in India we have allowed a caste system to develop in the USA that does not benefit the greater majority. Those are the facts ma'm, and nothing but the facts. We've even been absurdly brainwashed and convinced by the 1% that to expose the facts is politically incorrect.

#20 Eberly: I'm not call everyone else lazy...I'm referring to real hard workers.

There aren't a lot of them but I'm thankful to have known a few. One Uncle was a very hard worker and I did odd jobs for him in my mid-teens: if you weren't on a break you better be moving otherwise he wasn't happy. Working for him really helped me when I got my first real job because I was considered a hard worker.

I've seen some improvement in attitudes toward work in the past 2-4 years due to the economic downturn, especially among the under 30 crowd. The really lazy people seem largely unaffected and that isn't limited to one race.

there is no reason whatsoever whey these positions can't be filled

#18 | Posted by eberly

Sure there is.........

they STILL can't fill them because nobody can pass a drug test

#18 | Posted by eberly

They can't fill those jobs because they care more if someone smoked a joint over the weekend than they do if the person is a good worker.

They can't fill those jobs because they care more if someone smoked a joint over the weekend than they do if the person is a good worker.

that is incorrect.

It is the "system" that cares about that problem.

OSHA govt
Insurance requirments specifically work comp (which is State statute driven)
"vicarious" liability (civil legal exposure....courts...IOW...gov
t)

The employer didn't create any of that...all govt driven.

but since you brought it up.......what does this say about the work ethic of workers (who need a job) that KNOW they are likely to have to pass a drug test as a condition of employment and sit on their ass and smoke dope anyway?

you are proving my point for me.

Generally speaking real 1% success in the USA has become limited to ethnicity, resulting cronyism, family money and networks that provide access to the best schools

I agree Robson but you are talking about entrance into the 1% which is different than simply trying to get folks into the middle class and why we can't.

judging by the way you guys would rather buy more useless guns than educate the next generation, this is going to grow...within 20 years, china will be using the u.s. as its labor source...some European countries already are...

..but I work with real live business owners every day...

#18 | Posted by eberly

You probably won't take this well, but I don't know any insurance salesmen who actually do anything like productive work.

We can't educate our kids but we can teach them tolerate.

they STILL can't fill them because nobody can pass a drug test or can't produce a drivers license.

LOL...and the people are screaming to legalize the pot. Sounds like a good idea....LOL!

They can't fill those jobs because they care more if someone smoked a joint over the weekend than they do if the person is a good worker.

#25 | Posted by TFDNihilist at 2012-01-05 03:46 PM | Reply | Flag

No, they care more for the rest of their employees.

Almost 90% of the time we have an accident at work and the employee is drug tested they fail. Safety is a major issue and the business insurance reflects the value of having a drug free employee.

It's quite a conundrum Money. It really is.

We passed a new work comp law in Kansas earlier this year that allows a carrier to DENY workers compensation benefits to a claimaint who fails a drug test after an accident.

It might be a overreach by the Kansas legislature becuase I am doubtful the courts will uphold it but I suspect some real battles over it.

You probably won't take this well, but I don't know any insurance salesmen who actually do anything like productive work.

I do. I know a few who work their ass off.

No, they care more for the rest of their employees.

Almost 90% of the time we have an accident at work and the employee is drug tested they fail. Safety is a major issue and the business insurance reflects the value of having a drug free employee.

TFD, to add to Money's point...if an employer knowingly allows a worker, who tests positive for drugs, operate a forklift (for example) and runs over another worker....that injured worker's family has the right to sue the shit out of the employer over that.

That will be construed as reckless endangerment, vicarious liability, negligent entrustment, etc....

Money, I posted the link about Boeing Wichita yesterday...did you see it? did you know?

found that 42 percent of American men raised in the bottom fifth of incomes stay there as adults.

What part of this don't you guys understand.

They started at the bottom and stay at the bottom. It is very clear here that work is not the issue, once in never out.

The problem isn't the work, the problem is upward available jobs, there isn't any for the size of the workforce. Shipping our jobs overseas has made our service economy so grand.!!!

Eberly,

Yes I knew quite sometime ago that Boeing was doing this, it isn't over yet as far as closing a few other areas too.

Boeing is in a stage of streamlining alot of processes and have a need to keep the production in control closer to the actual work.

found that 42 percent of American men raised in the bottom fifth of incomes stay there as adults.

I know I'm gonna get ripped for this but.........what % of the men in the bottom fifth of incomes are BOTH..............

1. sober
2. skilled in anything?

It's just a question.......

Eberly, valid question but another question would be what percent of the 1% are sober, they aren't drug tested either.

I wonder if they were tested every quarter the upper crust couldn't turn a profit and remove them from their positions.

It is funny, to be a federal certified employee one is randomly tested for drugs yet none of the senators and such are ever subject to such cause they have exempt themselves.

Now keeping this in mind reflect upon the upward mobility issue.

-Eberly, valid question but another question would be what percent of the 1% are sober, they aren't drug tested either.

nope and I suspect many aren't.

And I suspect a significant # of Federal elected leaders couldn't pass a drug screen either.

and it's 100% hypocritical to exempt themselves from it.

#9 | Posted by nutcase

You make a pretty good point. Also people don't live to work - they work to live.

The real point here is we as a nation at one point was the example to look upon as the upward mobility nation of success and now we are towards the bottom.

What changed?
What are we doing differently to change ourselves from a winning game to the losing game.

The effect is global for our country though, lost hopes!!! The value or our success is being dashed and depleated through our corporate and business quest for higher profit ratios.

7 and 8% profit isn't enough, now we need 10 to 15% all at the expense of our population workforce.

The economy is more than just profit margins and profit ratios, it is also about how we want our society and the standards we want within the society.

You make a pretty good point. Also people don't live to work - they work to live.

#40 | Posted by GalaxiePete at 2012-01-05 05:26 PM | Reply | Flag

It is only a good point for a society that lacks innovation and the willingness to create.

Our workforce has remained relatively the same for the last 20 years, always around 140 to 160 million, and shipping the jobs overseas stagnates innovation, creation, and all the advances in technology because the hopes are dashed for the upward success.

We are getting cross movement of all the same bad managers from one business to another, we are moving all our failed managers from one industry to another because they are in a class to themselves and the new necessary changes don't happen, just the same defeat moving from one business industry to another.

The most predominant ethnic group in America into the mid 20th century were gentile Europeans / Germans. This group didn't know the meaning of siesta and they were hardworking and innovative people.

Then the globalist NYC liberals who despised European nationalism colluded with other liberals, and gave us the 1965 Immigration Act. The result is we became a more global and ethnically diverse nation, that made us less united and more akin to the third world countries that some of these people came from. If you visit many of our areas and cities they now look like third world countries.

If you wish to see how innovative and hard working a nation's people are, look at their individual homelands and see how innovative they were as a society on their own.

I'll state that intermingling cultures can be a good thing, just as inbreeding is not a good thing, but often there are aspects that end up dividing society. Some nations and people have become very successful on their own, and if you mix those peoples it can create even stronger nations and societies. But if you bring in cultures and peoples that generally have not been successful on their own it can weaken a nation.

"Why would most of them want to move up anyway? Think about it.....why work to live in the middle class when you can get taken care of and do nothing?
#8 | Posted by eberly"

That doesn't hold water, Ebs. Europe has better safety nets, but better upward mobility. Why?

Europe has better safety nets, but better upward mobility. Why?

I don't know....why?

Americuns is just lazee.

#6 | Posted by danni at 2012-01-05 02:23 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag:

#6 that may have some truth to it. Comparing income mobility, accurately, would have to take into account the culture of motivation and hard work. I'd venture to say that large segments of Americans, and Germans, would differ drastically.

But the big reason stopping income mobility? Go to NY or CA, and try to grow an apple or raise a cow and sell the juice or milk, legally. Tell me how long it takes you, how much it costs, and the amount of paperwork and cash it takes to hire a legal immigrant to help you.

"Government is the problem, not the solution."

#7 | Posted by adammm

Admann, you obviously have zero knowledge of Canadian or European legislation, do you? Compared to them, America is a free fire business zone. Not to mention all that unionization and all them vacations. And there's the taxes for stupid things like health care, safety nets and environmental protection and all that liberal stuff that you righties claim prevent each and every American for becoming a millionaire.

Reality and the right...

Vote GOP and pretty soon Somolia will look like the promised land for anybody not in the 1%.

I've been saying this for years.
There are more entrepreneurs per capita in northern Europe than the USA.
Too many Americans believe so strongly in their Norman Rockwell illusions they can't see reality.

"I don't know....why?
#45 | Posted by eberly"

I don't know. But it seems to be something other than the availability of a safety net.

So we suck at upward mobility - we're # 1 in Outward mobility, as in Get out, you're fired, we can't use you anymore, we're going in another direction, we're phasing out your department, and we've done the research AND your job doesn't fit / is no longer necessary to our operations.

Good luck - don't write, or try to use us as a reference!

When 1% of the population takes a larger and larger portion of the overall pie there is less to be shared by the other 99%. It ain't rocket science to see what's wrong with America. When you allow money to equal free speech then he who has the most money will make the rules and the rules will benefit he who has the money.

Would single payer health insurance, paid for through taxes, for all Americans encourage or discourage entrepreneurship?

Hint: #47

When you allow money to equal free speech then he who has the most money will make the rules and the rules will benefit he who has the money.
#50 | POSTED BY DANNI

By Jove! You hit it! That would be the Washington Beltway crowd.

"By Jove! You hit it! That would be the Washington Beltway crowd."

I don't care where they live, they're the 1%.

Germany of 2012 represents exactly what the USA once was 50 or less years ago.

Their citizens do much better than the USA people. They are middle class not 3rd world paupers and get paid better, with more vacation, health care that is better, and less costly, and overall benefits that are better.

Their CEOs and financiers don't get paid billions for failure and / or overpaid for success from a central bank. Germany as a whole does much better in exports and financial responsibility than the USA which in the end should be the goal of our government, even though it is now 100% corrupted by owned politicians.

The USA is owned by the 1%. The 1% would probably call you a bigot or perhaps an anti-Semite, etc for even saying that but it is fact. The 1% owns the USA and in any real democracy the 1% should control nothing.

I don't care where they live, they're the 1%.
#53 | POSTED BY DANNI

You vote for them.

"You vote for them."

They aren't all the same Ray, I know you need to believe they are but I simply know better. The representatives of the 1% created our current economic situation out of their own greed, the people I voted for have tried, somewhat successfully, to resurrect the economy those folks destroyed whether or not you want ot believe it.
Jobs numbers for December will be out tomorrow, I've heard unoffical numbers over 300,000 jobs created and new unemployment claims way down. Don't look now but things could be looking up though I know that will piss you off.

Ray, it's like this.
The game is rigged, but it's the only game in town.

And there is a difference.
It's always a Republican in the White House when we launch a massive invasion.
Democrats are satisfied with small exercises of power like Yugoslavia or Libya.

They aren't all the same Ray, I know you need to believe they are but I simply know better.

LMAO. Maybe 1% are decent at the most.

The representatives of the 1% created our current economic situation out of their own greed, the people I voted for have tried, somewhat successfully, to resurrect the economy those folks destroyed whether or not you want ot believe it.

The DC culture is infested with roaches and termites, bad people. I gave up on it after Reagan. It's gotten much worse since. That and many other reasons is why I'm so certain this economy is for a depression far worse than the 30s.

Jobs numbers for December will be out tomorrow, I've heard unoffical numbers over 300,000 jobs created and new unemployment claims way down. Don't look now but things could be looking up though I know that will piss you off.

The statistics are a fiction. The feds don't want the public to know how bad they've screwed up. The stock market, bond market - it's all manipulated smoke and mirrors.

And there is a difference.
It's always a Republican in the White House when we launch a massive invasion.
Democrats are satisfied with small exercises of power like Yugoslavia or Libya.
#57 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

The party label is only cosmetic these days. There's a vast bureaucratic and corporate culture beyond the faces on the ballot box.

There are probably a number of variables limiting "upward mobility". One possible one is the % of ethnic minorities in the European countries. Denmark has less then 7% and Great Britain a little more then 8%.

#33 | Posted by eberly

I still think far less of real estate agents.

I guess the approx 2 million fewer jobs in US over the last three years may be part of the problem.

The party label is only cosmetic these days. There's a vast bureaucratic and corporate culture beyond the faces on the ballot box.

I agree.

Regardless, one party still wants to privatize things more than the other.

It is just that our wages do not reflect this anymore.

I'm reminded of an interview given by a Russian factory worker prior to the break up of the Soviet Union. When asked about his pay he replied; "they pretend to pay me and I pretend to work".

#64

nailed it!

swoosh!

no net

#43 | Posted by Robson

This is about the best post I have ever read on this blog. And no one even mentioned it or responded to it...

Good job Robson..

Then the globalist NYC liberals who despised European nationalism colluded with other liberals, and gave us the 1965 Immigration Act.

Why is it whenever liberals enact their policies, our country goes to shit. We have been on a downward spiral since the "liberal revolution" of the 60's..

"Why would most of them want to move up anyway? Think about it.....why work to live in the middle class when you can get taken care of and do nothing?

#8 | Posted by eberly"

Such a none thoughtful comment.

So, why are you working to live in the middle class? think that answers it all.

"We have been on a downward spiral since the "liberal revolution" of the 60's.."

Yeah!

Especially that period between January 1981 and January 1993, and the period between January 2001 and January 2009.

Hmmmm. January 1981 - 1993...Hmmmm. Which party had control of the Congress for that time? Hmmm....

and from 2001 - 2009, we had a conservative pretender there. But we still did better than we have since the messiah is in office...

"Hmmmm. January 1981 - 1993...Hmmmm. Which party had control of the Congress for that time? Hmmm...."

House: Democrats
Senate: GOP (1981-1987); Democrats (1987-1995)
White House: GOP (1981-1993)

So, it looks like the GOP, especially at the White House level, contributed to that downward spiral.

"and from 2001 - 2009, we had a conservative pretender there."

Not buying that.

Not buying that.

you think he was a real conservative? how so?

He did not spend conservatively
He did not alter social policy in a conservative direction

Lowering taxes was about the only thing that could be described as conservative.

but the tax cuts did not accompany spending cuts so, when coupled together, that was not a conservative move.

you think he was a real conservative? how so?

#72 | POSTED BY EBERLY

Because it was "conservative" voters who put him in office. You don't think it was liberals, do you?