Great news. Corn is a terrible choice for an ethanol feedstock.

Now the viability of other sources can finally be evaluated. This is actually wonderful news for the alternative energy crowd.

Good. Now how about spending some money on truly alternative energy? : ) Nah, we can't. We have to save the money. "We could have saved the Earth but we were too damned cheap." (Vonnegut) (And yes, I know I'm idealistic.)

Oops. I was typing that at the same time Blood was typing his. Great minds? : )

It will be fun watching the Republican candidates dance around this one in Iowa.

There are actually contrarian positions on this in Iowa: Corn growers are addicted to the subsidies, while hog growers have to pay so much more for feed.

Who will the candidates suck up to?

This is a total fuck up and fuck over. It won't change the ethanol content of the gas because of the EPA rules. So basically gas prices are set to go up, a lot.

Now how about spending some money on truly alternative energy? : ) Nah, we can't. We have to save the money.

You must be terribly naive if you think Congress is going to "save" this money.

We have a new 1.2 Trillion loan to cover, right?

"You must be terribly naive if you think Congress is going to "save" this money."

I was being a bit ironic. You know, gov't going bankrupt, must make cuts--that old line. Of course, Congress will spend the money elsewhere. But I'm willing to bet it won't be on alternative energy exploration.

Who will the candidates suck up to?

#4 | Posted by verm

They'll go with the pigs, being GOPpers.

2 bill over "several years"? Wow, less than Republicans are willing to pay for Israel's socialist healtn care.

It will be switched over to Solar and Battery development and Fisker Car Co. of Ireland in order to save ex-VP Gore from losing to much of his millions - after all Tipper deserves SO much more!

Is it true the 1% are all OLD Democrats who donated to Obama's campaign?

Ethanol was a stupid subsidy because ethanol barely puts out more energy than it takes to produce it. Now we need to stop the subsidies for wind, solar and Odumbo's electricmobile.

Ethanol is liguid solar energy. And it can be made from nearly any plant that grows.

All you need are the right bugs.

The savings will go to Ex-VP Gore and his buddies at Fisker Automotive of Ireland for Battery Research / development! After all, we as a people, cannot sit still and see him lose his millions in earth warming funds (kick-backs(?))!

Is it true the 1%-er's are all OLD DEMOCRATS who have donated the 'Maximum' to Obama's re-election campaign?

The tax credit amounted to 45 cents per gallon of ethanol blended into gasoline.

Reitz is right; our gas will be going up now at least 45 cents per gallon.

Grass clippings, switch grass, sweet potatoes, dandilions, cattails, apples, weeds, and yes, even weed itself.

Every locality in the U.S. has something native they can produce ethanol from.

Also, did you know that most pre-1925 vehicles ran on ethanol?

As an engineer in the oil and gas business, the projections I have seen place the long-term future price of gasoline at $8/gal. This is partly political and partly economic.

No one has incentive to develop alternative energy sources while the price of oil is at $100/barrel. There is no relative profit to be made.

Of course, as americans, we can't address a problem of this magnitude until it actually blows up.

Oil production WILL come to an end because there is a finite amount. Our society is built on cheap energy (no other source currently has the BTU's per dollar that oil has).

Another tasty little fact for you. A regular car engine is about 30% efficient. A racing car engine is about 40% efficient. The first engines were only 5% efficient. Todays efficiencies are only possible after 100 years of intense development.

It will require a similar effort among government, business and yes, regular everyday tinkerers and shade tree mechanics, to make these new technologies happen.

However, ethanol is not considered to be a viable oil-replacement by anyone except corn-growers and Archer Daniel Midland. 'Bout time for those subsidies to stop.

The tax credit amounted to 45 cents per gallon of ethanol blended into gasoline.

Reitz is right; our gas will be going up now at least 45 cents per gallon.

#14 | Posted by kanrei

I know it sounds counterintuitive, but that .45 cents is precisely the market inefficiency that was holding ethanol back.

Now other feedstocks are economically viable.

Liz, in what year do those projections have us at $8/gal?

Ask any moonshiner, ethanol is produced in a still which requires LOTS OF ENERGY, almost as much energy as the ethonol gives out when it is burned. IT DOES'NT MATTER WHAT YOU USE FOR THE ETHANOL FEEDSTOCK IT IS STILL A STUPID WASTE OF ENERGY.

FUCK ETHANOL< SOLAR< WIND AND BARRY'S COAL BURNING VOLT.

I'll bet David Blume is stoked today. This was his iniative that finally happened.

Well done David!

Bachmnnn will be a no term president!

Not even the GOPhers took the pledge this year signalling this sea change.

Be Well.

Liz, in what year do those projections have us at $8/gal?

#18 | Posted by BloodSacrafice

We should have already been there, except a couple of new developments happened in the past 10-20 years that changed the equation.

1) hydraulic fracking. this is mostly for gas and shale gas.

2) horizontal drilling. Used to, you could only drill straight down. Now you can drill down and at an angle and even horizontally.

Both of these technologies have opened new reserves previously thought unreachable. The end of oil production is still coming because oil is finite (as is gas and uranium), it has just been postponed for a while.

Gas production will continue longer because the US has shit-loads of gas, but the infrastructure is not complete enough to switch over to gas. That switchover will costs trillions. To develop any new infrastructure, ethanol, cellulosic ethanol, gas, hydrogen, fusion reactors, solar, wind, etc... is going to cost trillions.

As a side note, I'm sure most of you don't remember, but in 2008, right before the economy crashed, do you remember what happened? Gasoline went from $1.75/gal to $5/gal in a matter of months.

Congress actually did something right?

What the fuck?!?

"Reitz is right; our gas will be going up now at least 45 cents per gallon."

Hard truth, unless our fuel prices go up alternative energy will never really become viable. Those driving gas guzzlers will suffer, it isn't as if you haven't known gas was going to keep rising in price so why did anyone continue buying those cars? For me, in a very economical car, gas prices are no worry.

For me, in a very economical car, gas prices are no worry.

Unless you grow 100% of your own food and purchase nothing, gas prices should be a worry to you. Everything that is shipped will see the price rise as a result of this.

Ask any moonshiner, ethanol is produced in a still which requires LOTS OF ENERGY, almost as much energy as the ethonol gives out when it is burned. IT DOES'NT MATTER WHAT YOU USE FOR THE ETHANOL FEEDSTOCK IT IS STILL A STUPID WASTE OF ENERGY.

#19 | Posted by fwthom

From a systems engineering point of view, here's your own point FWTHOM.

Those moonshiners took a low-quality energy source (firewood) and converted it into a very-high quality energy source (alcohol).

Not only that, and by your own words, moonshiers seem to break about even on the energy required; old, low quality energy in to new, high quality energy out.

Pretty amazing when you think about it like that, isn't it?

Any properly designed ethanol production faciility works on the same principle. Use low-quality energy (waste heat preferably) and use it to produce the higher-quality ethanol with.

With the .45 cents/per gallon artificial market inefficiency now gone, other feedstocks have a shot at becoming viable.

Just wait and see.

Unless you grow 100% of your own food and purchase nothing, gas prices should be a worry to you. Everything that is shipped will see the price rise as a result of this.

#26 | Posted by kanrei at 2011-12-28 11:02 AM

It was a bad subsidy, though the possibility of food prices rising when we're still trying to recover from an economic low sucks.

How many jobs would be created with ethanol production plants located in every county of the United States?

How much of our energy dollars would remain stateside, very, very local to you in fact, instead of coming back to haunt us out of horrible, primeaval places like Tosserkhastan?

How many local "farmers" (are folks who grow weeds farmers?) would be helped by providing a local market for highly varied feedstock production?

And what about the air?

Not only that, I sure would love to raise our collective middle finger at the...

...Straight of Hormuz, and the bearded closet homos (aka the IRGC) that think they own the damned thing.

We need to do this so the entire Middle Ass will fucking drowned in their earth-killing oil.

#15 | Posted by BloodSacrafice
Great ,guess that means I'll have to get a Model A. My MPG drops when I use this .

"Unless you grow 100% of your own food and purchase nothing, gas prices should be a worry to you. Everything that is shipped will see the price rise as a result of this."

When energy prices rise high enough it will make it unprofitable to outsource jobs because transportation costs will be too high. We have created an economy based on subsidized energy which cannot sustain itself.

Jimmy Carter looks smarter every single year and Ronnie Raygun and all his sychophants look dumber.

is going to cost trillions.
The cost is irrelevant when factored against the cost of no longer having a functioning power grid. Alternative energy should be the main focus of humanity. All these scientists mucking about on M-theory or inter-stellar space flight need to be thrown in work camps until they can produce something potentially useful. It is going to be hard under the current circumstances; it will be impossible to do by candlelight or powered on whale oil

grow 100% of your own food
That can't be done without petrochemicals, either. We won't need to worry about the shipping cost of food as Peak Oil approaches, there won't be enough surplus food to ship.

Those driving gas guzzlers will suffer, it isn't as if you haven't known gas was going to keep rising in price so why did anyone continue buying those cars? For me, in a very economical car, gas prices are no worry.

#25 | Posted by danni

Gas guzzlers... Hmmmmm... What does that really mean today?

Commuter vehicles, family vehicles, non-work vehicles are mostly of the fuel efficient type anymore, easily topping 20 mpg average, probably more around 25 to 30 mpg. With mostly very high reliability. Hybrids and such get much higher mpgs, but come up lacking in that all-around weather and terrain category.

Sure there are those who must purchase giant dickmobiles to compensate for whatever lacks they may have in other areas, but people of that ilk are a minority.

Work vehicles though are a different matter. Form must meet function. Form and function for work vehicles demands large(r) size, innate toughness, high capacity, big frames, big motors. Fuel efficiency is not a high consideration when it is grunt power that is needed. So rising gas prices will ultimately transfer to the consumer because these vehicles still must be fed.

When energy prices rise high enough it will make it unprofitable to outsource jobs because transportation costs will be too high.

Meanwhile, people freeze during winter because they can't afford heating bills, people starve because they can't afford food, and children will go naked because we can't afford to clothe them, but Danni is happy in her economic car because outsourcing MAY end one day eventually.

Great ,guess that means I'll have to get a Model A. My MPG drops when I use this .

#31 | Posted by patron

The Model A got 75 miles to the gallon of ethanol. The Model T though put on some more weight and only got about 25.

Ethanol was a stupid subsidy because ethanol barely puts out more energy than it takes to produce it. Now we need to stop the subsidies for wind, solar and Odumbo's electricmobile.

#11 | POSTED BY FWTHOM AT 2011-12-28 10:08 AM | REPLY | FLAG

Wow. You might be even more stupid than Tosser.

Jesus Christ people.....calm down.

The world is not coming to an end over this.

Jimmy Carter looks smarter every single year and Ronnie Raygun and all his sychophants look dumber.

#33 | Posted by danni

It is a damn shame that Carter's original plan for the DOE didn't work out so well.

Good news coming out of Congress for a change.

"It is a damn shame that Carter's original plan for the DOE didn't work out so well."

It's a shame Jimmy Carter wasn't reelected due to the Iran hostage crisis and that the traitor Reagan who made a deal with the Iranians to continue holding the hostages was elected which enabled him to set back energy policies decades. Many or even most of the problems in America today can be traced directly back to that stupid actor.

Hard truth, unless our fuel prices go up alternative energy will never really become viable. Those driving gas guzzlers will suffer, it isn't as if you haven't known gas was going to keep rising in price so why did anyone continue buying those cars? For me, in a very economical car, gas prices are no worry.

#25 | POSTED BY DANNI AT 2011-12-28 11:00 AM | REPLY | FLAG:

You, on the other hand, are DEFINITELY more stupid. Gas going up means the cost of everything goes up. I realize you've never even seen what poverty looks like, but hey. Companies will not do a god-damned thing to develop "alternative" energy any more than they are now. The price of everything will go up, oil company profits will remain high, and the poor will suffer.

Those moonshiners took a low-quality energy source (firewood) and converted it into a very-high quality energy source (alcohol).
#27 | Posted by BloodSacrafice
But, moonshiners don't pay for the wood fuel ,they just take the trees around(which are not theirs) and burn and pollute the area.

#42 | Posted by danni at 2011-12-28 11:42 AM | Reply | Flag: again with that rant. can't stop it. needs to move on....but won't. never

#27 | Posted by BloodSacrafice
#44 | Posted by patron

Drink some more methanol.
Lots of it.
Soon.

BTW, a 2007 Mini Cooper gets shit MPG for its class, is manufactured overseas with parts constructed on three continents, and came to you after being shipped across the ocean on a gigantic diesel-chugging clunker from the 1960's.

That's very clever ZeroxOnly.

Say, I've been thinking since you just happend by. I've been reading a lot of your copied and pasted materials, and was hoping to someday read something that you wrote yourself.

You must do that from time to time right?

"The price of everything will go up, oil company profits will remain high, and the poor will suffer."

When fuel costs manufacturers more than labor jobs will be created in America, the poor will get those jobs.

"Flag: again with that rant. can't stop it. needs to move on....but won't. never"

"Nevertheless, several individuals most notably former Iranian President Abolhassan Bani-Sadr,[2] former Naval intelligence officer and National Security Council member Gary Sick; and former Reagan/Bush campaign and White House staffer Barbara Honegger have stood by the allegation. There have been allegations that the plane crash the killed the Portuguese Prime Minister, Francisco de Sá Carneiro, in 1980 was in fact an assasination of the Defence Minister, Adelino Amaro da Costa, who had said that he had documents concerning the October surprise conspiracy theory and was planning on taking them to the United Nations General Assembly."

-When fuel costs manufacturers more than labor jobs will be created in America, the poor will get those jobs.

what would be some examples of that?

Although overall ethanol production will likely slip at first, increased production of non-corn ethanol will create inherently local jobs; that simply did not exist before because of artificial market barriers.

Fine, drive your Model A. Myself I prefer modern cars with great comfort,handling , the ability to drive as fast as i like thru the desert,no worries about my tires,being able to stop without dragging my feet. And all this along with 28 mpg if I cruise the seed limit.Oh and then safety features , if I crash air bags crumble zones , you crash you fly through the glass window or out side of the car. No I'll stick with the future.

"The rising cost of shipping everything from industrial-pump parts to lawn-mower batteries to living-room sofas is forcing some manufacturers to bring production back to North America and freeze plans to send even more work overseas."

For me, in a very economical car, gas prices are no worry.

#25 | POSTED BY DANNI AT 2011-12-28 11:00 AM | REPLY | FLAG:

wow. you really believe that high gas prices only affects you at the pump? how amazingly narrow-minded of you.

There are to many people on the planet. There exists no technology that will allow a world population of 7+ billion people to drive cars with all the associated burden that makes worldwide driving possible. China will develop a national highway system and a billion Chinese will be driving. Maybe if everyone had a nuclear reactor in their car?

"Hemp turns out to be the most cost-efficient and valuable of all the fuel crops we could grow on a scale that could fuel the world."

#54

Thanks.

Congress actually did something right?

What the fuck?!?

#24 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE

Amazing. It must be April Fools day or something.

I'm glad the government got it collective head out of its ass long enought to end Ethanol subsidies that have done nothing but drive up food costs. Now who do I see about all the tax dollars pissed away by all these green projects like these plants built all over the country.

Who'll be left holding the bag in Pa. ethanol plant's demise?

CLEARFIELD, Pa. - Five years ago, officials of Getty Petroleum Marketing Inc. enlisted then-Gov. Ed Rendell to help build Pennsylvania's first ethanol plant in this borough of 6,100 people, a badly needed investment in a community battered by coal's long decline.

The state agreed to support the $270 million project with $27 million in grants and loans and by issuing $67 million in tax-free bonds. Getty agreed to buy the ethanol to blend into its gasoline.

But by the time the plant began converting corn into ethanol in December 2009, the market for the additive had soured. Last month, Bionol Clearfield L.L.C. shut down and declared bankruptcy, less than two years after starting up.

Someday we might have really cheap clean energy like, perhaps thorium nuclear but for sure it won't be wind, solar or coal fired electric and Odumbo, the democrat party and the MFing greenies, Darwinists and warmers don't have a clue what it will be. In the meantime we will need rivers of oil, mountains full of coal and pipelines full of gas.

Kick a greenie in the nuts today!

I'm not exactly cheering that others will have to pay more for fuel but I have wondered why so many folks, some of my own kids, buy gas guzzlers. It isn't as if rising fuel prices is a surprise for anyone is it?

#57 | POSTED BY DANNI AT 2011-12-28 12:28 PM | REPLY | FLAG

I get you. I'm glad they are getting rid of this subsidy. but gas prices will affect you, even if you don't drive at all. it increases the cost of everything. food prices are dramatically increased as the cost of diesel rises. ask a farmer. petroleum products are in everything. so, while your Prius might help during the occasional stop at the pump, your cost of living has risen dramatically in ways that you won't necessarily see.

plus, many still work in areas that require body on frame construction with lots of torque and hp. those are typically the 99%ers.

Ethanol is a terrible thing to have in the gas tank of a boat. It's love of water spoils the fuel in no time. Then you have to figure out how to get rid of it legally. No easy task.

''Ending the ethanol tax breaks is projected to save about $2 billion over several years.''

This is the biggest joke!

They ain't goin' to save no stinkin' money!

They will spend it and more on other --bigger--programs of waste...

''Ending the ethanol tax breaks is projected to save about $2 billion over several years.''

This is the biggest joke!

They ain't goin' to save no stinkin' money!

They will spend it and more on other --bigger--programs of waste...

Posted by MURPHY at 2011-12-28 02:16 PM |

Didn't Obama just ask for 1.2 Trillion more? Here is the .2 part. One Trillion to go.

Errr...this would actually be .02, my mistake.

And Kan--that will last 2 weeks and then they have to do it again!

This is part of Obama's campaign against Congress.

All year through this election cycle--more fights in congress and Obama over the debt, the deficit, and spending, and it's all so useless.

U.S. corn ethanol had further been protected by a 54-cents-per-gallon tariff on imports of ethanol from other countries (meaning Brazil). That import duty was also ended by the departure of Congress for the year.

So, in a month or two we will have another ethanol law just without the tarrif.

They [the Republican Congress] will spend it and more on other --bigger--programs of waste...

#64 | Posted by MURPHY

By Murphy "logic" Congress shouldn't cut anything because they will spend it on something else.

"Kick a greenie in the nuts today!

#61 | Posted by fwthom

Hey dummy, I'm an environmentalist and I've been denouncing ethanol subsidies for years.

Now who do I see about all the tax dollars pissed away by all these green projects like these plants built all over the country.

So in a thread about future energy shortages due to our current source and usage issues you're contribution is to denounce attempts to fix that problem?

That leads to a longer-range question: Will there be sufficient ethanol produced and imported to meet the escalating ethanol-use requirements of the 2007 Energy Independence and Security Act passed by Congress?

That law requires that 36 billion gallons of ethanol be blended into U.S. vehicle fuel by 2022â€"which is more than three times the 11.1 billion gallons used in 2010. The requirement rises to 15 billion gallons for 2015.

Congress has blocked the EPA’s approval of E15 gasoline, which has up to 15 percent ethanol, largely at the request of automakers and others who fear damage to engines not designed to handle fuel with that volume of ethanol. The current standard, in places for decades, permits up to 10 percent ethanol in pump gasoline.

Congress blocks E15 cause auto makers fear the engines will breakdown and yet pass a environmental bill making it mandated. Yep, congress at its best.

At least they removed the tarrif to allow other countries to import the ethanol.

Ethanol is a terrible thing to have in the gas tank of a boat.

#63 | Posted by nutcase

I hear water in the tank is pretty bad too.

Subsidizing stupid shit like ethanol, wind, solar and coal fired electric OIbamamobiles is only making the energy supply situation worse.

Drill baby drill, oh and do some research on thorium nuclear.

Didn't Obama just ask for 1.2 Trillion more? Here is the .2 part. One Trillion to go.

#65 | Posted by kanrei at 2011-12-28 02:17 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

Errr...this would actually be .02, my mistake.

#66 | Posted by kanrei

Keep going. $2 Billion = $.002 Trillion

Leaves $1.198 Trillion to go. Let's keep em coming.

The Brazilians sure don't think ethanol is stupid.

That's good news because it is causing a lot of engine problems,especially small engines and marine engines.

Those driving gas guzzlers will suffer, it isn't as if you haven't known gas was going to keep rising in price so why did anyone continue buying those cars? For me, in a very economical car, gas prices are no worry.

#25 | Posted by danni

From the mindless idiot of the dr left!!!

UNTIL she's bad mouthing big oil, then everything is their fault. What sort of selfish hypocritical high horse snobbish elitist are you danni? A DBag of MAJOR proportions!!!!!

Do you love how everyday she falls more in love with Jimmy Carter??? Says something enough times she believes it, no one else in the world does though.....

Driving an import!!!!!!! While crying that people are exporting jobs, she buys AN IMPORT!!!!!!!!!

#79 | Posted by DavetheWave
well said!

Congress final did something sensible.The ethanol subsidy was a boondoggle from the start. Made a lot of poor people hungrier.

Good. Now how about spending some money on truly alternative energy? : ) Nah, we can't. We have to save the money. "We could have saved the Earth but we were too damned cheap." (Vonnegut) (And yes, I know I'm idealistic.)

#2 | Posted by pragmatist

I'm for it if they could be smart about it. So far, the government's been batting zero.

Republicans have even found a way to piss of farmers! HAHAHA!

"I'm for it if they could be smart about it. So far, the government's been batting zero."

Okay, what does being smart about it look like?

Driving an import!!!!!!! While crying that people are exporting jobs, she buys AN IMPORT!!!!!!!!!

#79 | Posted by DavetheWave

Which, I believe if she still has it, is a Mini Cooper, a BMW built in England. Overall mpg is good, though not stellar for a vehicle in that class. Add in that the reliability ain't so hot on those. Also add in what is probably a 3000 to 5000 dollar premium just for cute when compared to other cars of equal size and capability.

The Mini is not a deal. There are in fact much better vehicles in terms of miles per gallon, capability, and reliability for much lower cost.

But it sho' is cuuuuuute. And that is what counts the most to many vehicle buyers.

Those driving gas guzzlers will suffer, it isn't as if you haven't known gas was going to keep rising in price so why did anyone continue buying those cars? For me, in a very economical car, gas prices are no worry.

#25 | Posted by danni at 2011-12-28 11:00 AM | Reply | Flag:

Sorry danni but you deserve this one for that line...

Driving an import!!!!!!! While crying that people are exporting jobs, she buys AN IMPORT!!!!!!!!!

#79 | Posted by DavetheWave at 2011-12-28 06:38 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

Now dave, don't point out her being inconsistant or a hypocriate, that just makes you a right wing "tool".

Don't ask her about her Nike shoes either. She needs them. Everyone else is evil and bringing about the destruction of the American dream via outsourcing and child labor, but not her.

Reitze: "I want fwee!"

"The Mini is not a deal. There are in fact much better vehicles in terms of miles per gallon, capability, and reliability for much lower cost."

Not that I could find. There are lots of cheaper cars but they sure as hell did not drive like a Mini. You can cruise in it at 90 and feel like you're in a much bigger car.
Also I bought it used, it's a 2005 and I admitted right here that it was still wrong and that I won't buy another import though buying an English car from a German manufacturer isn't exactly equivalent to buying anything Chinese. The English and the Germans pay US level wages or even better so they aren't undercutting wages here. China is.
Also as to the reliability, mine as been virtually perfect, no problems to report at all. Definitely the best car I've ever owned.

Who'll be left holding the bag in Pa. ethanol plant's demise?

CLEARFIELD, Pa. - Five years ago, officials of Getty Petroleum Marketing Inc. enlisted then-Gov. Ed Rendell to help build Pennsylvania's first ethanol plant in this borough of 6,100 people, a badly needed investment in a community battered by coal's long decline.

#60 - Paneocon

In Cali we had this happen with MBTE, and conversion to dyno machines for smog. The station owners got it in the shorts, when they changed the law to test only....

It was only a matter of time... If you aren't to big to fail, when you get in bed with the devil... sooner or later you get fucked!

#88 ? IDK what you mean Prag.

91--In the Smug Alert link you posted, silly. Ike at the end...

Congress Ends Ethanol Subsidy

It's about time they did ...