Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs
Monday, December 12, 2011

For the first time, the Environmental Protection Agency has found chemicals used in fracking contaminating an aquifer. Samples taken from two deep water-monitoring wells near a gas field in Pavillion, Wyoming, showed synthetic chemicals such as glycols and alcohols "consistent with gas production and hydraulic-fracturing fluids," the agency stated. Amy Mall, senior policy analyst with the National Resources Defense Council, said that "it's a game-changer. EPA experts and scientists have recognized that there is real contamination, that there is a real scientific basis for linking it to fracking."

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Interesting video thanks, I guess I need to learn more on fracking

Tap Water on Fire !!

"dAmN REGULATIONS!" - tHE rIGHT

(blt impression)

Who gives a frack? There's nothing more important than extracting and burning up as much fossil fuels as quickly as possible. It's every American's patriotic duty. Burn it, baby, burn it.

#4 | Posted by nullifidian at 2011-12-12 12:11 AM | Reply | Flag: "There is no way I am going to read anything more than this headline"

Is anyone the least bit suprised that that crap is winding it's way into the water supply?
You know, water.
The fluid we REALLY can't live without.

Synthetic chemicals discovered in the aquifer are just as likely “the result of contamination from their own sampling,” he said.

True. One of the biggest problems encountered in QA/QC issues with water sampling techniques is cross-comtamination due to sloppy procedure---especially when you're using bailers to fill a sample vial that requires a positive meniscus.

While testing detected petroleum hydrocarbons in wells and in groundwater, the agency at the time said it couldn’t pinpoint the source of the contamination.

But the hits they got in this were "synthetic chemicals such as glycols and alcohols", which aren't hydrocarbons.

Levels of the chemicals in the deep wells are “well above” acceptable standards under the Safe Drinking Water Act, the agency said.

What an interesting fact to bury in the 11th paragraph of your "news" story. That is some outstanding journalism and truly demonstrates Jim Efstathiou Jr's commitment to seeking objective truth as he does God's thankless work as an "objective journalist". The ignorant left-wing cunt from the joke that is the NRDC got to tell us what a "game changer" this was in the 4th paragraph.

Fracking chemicals may have entered the aquifer through faulty well construction, gaps in impermeable rock or fractures created during drilling, the EPA said.

Yep.

Anybody with a slightly greater than Trig Palin understanding about the principles and practices of oil & gas extraction; and/or hydrogeology understands how remote the possibility of aquifer contamination is due to hydraulic fracturing techniques.

In essence, you have a small, shrill group of people who are similar in mentality to:

A.) "birthers"

B.) People who thing public policy can alter macro-climate cycles

C.) Those who believe the earth is 6,000 years old

D.) People who think aircraft contrails are actually chemicals experiments

E.) Ron Paul supporters

the reporter on this story: Jim Efstathiou Jr. in New York

New York?

Imagine that!

I like the title of the video, too...

"Fracking Hell: the Untold Story"

...as if this is an "untold" story.

I mean Jesus fuck---every liberal faggot with a laptop in the western world has been hoping, trying, praying for some indication that these big, bad, job-creating, community-reviving extraction companies are somehow creating an environmental disaster.

The hard truth is....they're not.

And we're going to continue to burn hydrocarbons for energy until well after you're dead.

And wind and solar aren't feasible sources of energy for a 1st world economy.

And we're not all going to move from the suburbs into revitalized inner-city "New Urban Communities" where we all take public transportation to work and live neato-mosquito, utopian neighborhoods---perfectly engineered for direct social interaction with all levels of racial and socio-economic strata.

"People who think aircraft contrails are actually chemicals experiments"

Come again?!

en.wikipedia.org

They vote, too...

Research the well in question. It is a vertical,(that's straight down), shallow well. If the casing is improperly sealed these wells might leak. Constant monitoring is a good thing. Deep horizontal wells are much less likely to leak.

here in NE Ohio fracking Jobs are raising the standard of living, feeding & educating children, paving roads, repairing bridges, heating Hospitals, AND giving HS grad with a work ethic the ability to pull down $75k per year to START ..
~ there are OHIO EPA guys swarming the area overseeing testing, extraction and reporting ..

~ ~ outside enviro-activists are welcome to request a forum for their views IF they disclose funding & tax-filings ..
~ they have been very uncomfortable with compliance in this area

hmmmm .. activists rant that industry disclose ALL proprietary info, but REFUSE to disclose who is paying for their Hotels, dinners, & SUVs etc

Here's my concerns:

1. $$$ FUCKING Politics - I know people with over 100 acreas each. The gas companies are offering them upwords of $10K/acre just to start drilling and then possibilities of $K / month shares on top of that. So the land owners are willing to sell their properties or "mineral rights" even if they have to truck in or distil water after that. But what about the FUCKING POLITICIANS? Who will they represent? The people in the towns who will get poisoned and stuck with expenses for basic water? Or the profiteers paying into their campaigns?

2. A pipeline is bad enough. It's good the leak-detection technologies are improving - but sereiously public could benefit from that being intentionally improved/demonstrated... I recently learned why the beautiful maple trees in the front yard of the home I grew up in died over the last 10 years. It was due to an underground pipeline leaking near them. The Gas SEEPED from a 10' depth along 50' of roadway (it spread) and wiped out 3 Maple trees that were each over 40 years old and about 50' tall. Gas-co trucks were there a couple weeks ago and explained what happened - how it seeped, and how the tree deaths and grass not growing showed them where to dig. The trees were nice healthy maples good for another 75 years before that leak. ... I remember how I climbed the old tree to put a water-line across the road when we dug the lake in the back yard. I had to on/off the water-lines, fill but buckets and carry 10 gallons for the horses, and fill the house-tank before school while everyone used the BR in the a.m., then re-drain the line. .... I remember climbing the other tree to put a wire up higher than my bedroom window and use it for an antenna - it picked up some long wave radio.

3. GOM Leak - 75% METHANE. WTF not harvesting from locations like that rather than where CLEAN WATER is a PRECIOUS RESOURCE?

4. Methane/gas is released from drilling oil wells constantly - its a major source of it in the environment and more "warming" than CO2. So why isn't that relative opportunity in perspective? How much is released? Can it be pipelined with possibly new pipes in existing pipe-lines?

Questions Emerge On EPA's Wyoming Fracking Study

Six Questions on Pavillion from Energy In Depth:
1) Why the huge difference between what EPA found in its monitoring wells and what was detected in private wells from which people actually get their water?

2) After reviewing the data collected by Region 8, why did EPA administrator Lisa Jackson tell a reporter that, specific to Pavillion, “we have absolutely no indication now that drinking water is at risk”?

3) Did all those chemicals that EPA used to drill its monitoring wells affect the results?

â–ª Diethanolamine? Anionic polyacrylamide? Trydymite? Bentonite? Contrary to conventional wisdom, chemicals are needed to drill wells, not just fracture them â€" even when the purpose of those wells has nothing to do with oil or natural gas development.

4) Why is the author so confident that fracturing is to blame when most of his actual report focuses on potential issues with casing, cement and legacy pits?

5) 2-BE or not 2-BE? That is the question.
▪ EPA indicates that it found tris (2-butoxyethyl) phosphate in a few domestic water wells. What the agency doesn’t mention is that this chemical is a common fire retardant found in plastics and plastic components used in drinking water wells. It’s not 2-BE, which, although also a common material, is sometimes associated with the completions process.

6) Is EPA getting enough potassium?
▪ Several times in its report, EPA notes that potassium and chloride levels were found to be elevated in its monitoring wells. But just because you have potassium and chloride doesn’t mean you’ve got potassium chloride, a different chemical entirely and one that’s sometimes associated with fracturing solutions. Nowhere in its report does EPA suggest that potassium chloride was detected.

www.forbes.com

www.energyindepth.org

#14 in other words whatever the EPA might have said of value has been drowned in confused bullshit. $$$-Fucking-Politics via paid-noise-making internal to the FDA. For every good research result there's a counter-result that says it didn't count. So they're bough $-Fucked-useless.

"They've used terms like 'likely,'" Hock said today in an interview. "What they've come up with here is a probability. It's not a definitive conclusion."

www.bloomberg.com

There are documented cases of these chemicals polluting wells and ground water. This is not news. And really, how retarded do you have to be to believe that this shit could be pumped into the ground and NOT contaminate anything else?

"New York?

Imagine that!"

Holy Shit! He's a Yankee queer from New York? Everybody knows that hillbillies have a monopoly on truth, justice and the American Way!

Grow the fuck up, idiot.

Also, the arguement that energy companies must be allowed to extract natural gas using whatever cheap, half assed process they want without concern for anyone else's rights is a false one. If you incent them to do so, they can figure out a way to do this cleaner. There is no reason to bend over for them and screech "Poison us, pleeeeeease!" without even attempting to find a better way....

I was wondering who would be the first RightWingNut idiot who would post that there is no conclusive evidence between Fracking and Water Pollution.

Looks like it is a toss up between JAK FUK MI and the PA NEO NAZI.

Both seem to believe you need to be a non liberal geological expert to even have the right to develop an informed opinion on the issue.

Meanwhile the ExxonMobil Banner add is running at the end of the thread prompting me to run their youtube video to see how fracking is COMPLETELY safe because it only disrupts the earths crust below the level of the water table.

WHAT A BUNCH OF CORPORATE BIG BROTHER BRAINWAHSING BULLSHIT!!

You do not need a college degree to be able to create a supposition that CRACKING the ground could pollute the WATER in the ground.

Oh OH no one has actually been able to PROVE this yet?

It will be proven soon enough.

Oh OH but it creates jobs!

When the skies are black and the temps are hot as hell and you can't get clean water to drink REMEMBER THIS MOMENT! When you had the chance to DO SOMETHING and you sat on your ass making excuses.

There are documented cases of these chemicals polluting wells and ground water.

No, there are not.

This is not news.

It's news to you, apparently.

And really, how retarded do you have to be to believe that this shit could be pumped into the ground and NOT contaminate anything else?

Well, far less retarded than you have to be to think that anything resembling a hydrological connection exists between oil & gas formations---over a mile below the earth's surface, and fucking aquifers.

Grow the fuck up, idiot.

How about you go fuck yourself instead, chump.

And go learn something.

Also, the arguement that energy companies must be allowed to extract natural gas using whatever cheap, half assed process they want without concern for anyone else's rights is a false one.

Except nobody's making that argument, dipshit.

Companies have been fracking for decades. This isn't new technology with some new, environmental bogeyman.

I guess that's another one of those things that's "news" to you, but not to anybody who halfway knows what the fuck they're talking about.

I was wondering who would be the first RightWingNut idiot who would post that there is no conclusive evidence between Fracking and Water Pollution.

There is no conclusive evidence between Fracking and groundwater contamination.

I'm sorry if that fucks up your stunted little comprehension of the world around you, but that's the way it is.

Maybe you should stick to fretting over "global warming", or sodas in school vending machines, or inadequate public transportation, or any other number of horrors stupid shits like yourself need to invent to keep yourselves occupied.

"No, there are not."

Yes there are. Some of the people who have documented this even wear cowboy hats and live on ranches so you might believe them!

"Well, far less retarded than you have to be to think that anything resembling a hydrological connection exists between oil & gas formations---over a mile below the earth's surface, and fucking aquifers."

LOL. Yes, the chems are magically transported a mile below the Earth. They don't have to travel through the Earth to get a mile below the Earth!

"Except nobody's making that argument, dipshit."

You throw a hissy fit at the mere suggestion that the process can affect people negatively. Why deny it, dipshit?

Yes there are.

No, there are not.

"You Tube" videos aren't documentation. Again, there is no conclusive evidence between Fracking and groundwater contamination. I'm sorry if that fucks up your stunted little comprehension of the world around you, but that's the way it is.

the chems are magically transported a mile below the Earth

Through a steel casing...they're not "injected" into anything near the groundwater strata.

You throw a hissy fit at the mere suggestion that the process can affect people negatively.

Except I'm pointing out that the process doesn't affect people negatively, no matter how badly your poorly-informed little ass wishes it to be otherwise.

'"You Tube" videos aren't documentation. Again, there is no conclusive evidence between Fracking and groundwater contamination. I'm sorry if that fucks up your stunted little comprehension of the world around you, but that's the way it is.'

Yes, there is no such thing as simple common sense.

Rancher has clean well water.

Fracking occurs near ranch.

Rancher now has well water that when exposed to flame, a film of plastic forms over the surface.

Who polluted the water? Duh, uh we'll never know! No way to put 2 and 2 together on that one!

"Through a steel casing...they're not "injected" into anything near the groundwater strata."

The way I've seen it, they try to blindly seal off the shaft with concrete before shooting the chems down the shaft.

"Except I'm pointing out that the process doesn't affect people negatively, no matter how badly your poorly-informed little ass wishes it to be otherwise."

Except I've seen documentation of people being affected negatively and the gas companies settled with them. So I obviously know more about this than you becuase you are apparently ignorant to this undeniable reality..

Yes there are.

No, there are not.

"You Tube" videos aren't documentation. Again, there is no conclusive evidence between Fracking and groundwater contamination. I'm sorry if that fucks up your stunted little comprehension of the world around you, but that's the way it is.

the chems are magically transported a mile below the Earth

Through a steel casing...they're not "injected" into anything near the groundwater strata.

You throw a hissy fit at the mere suggestion that the process can affect people negatively.

Except I'm pointing out that the process doesn't affect people negatively, no matter how badly your poorly-informed little ass wishes it to be otherwise.

#25 | Posted by Jak_Se_Mao

you pump non degradable products into the ground they will eventually find their way into drinking water.

Except I've seen documentation of people being affected negatively

No you haven't.

There is no documented evidence of groundwater contamination due to fracking.

and the gas companies settled with them.

A "settlement" doesn't mean anything other than a company finds it cheaper to pay it than it does to prove a negative in a protracted legal battle. And you're more than welcome to post some kind of link to whatever settlement you think you've seen.

you pump non degradable products into the ground they will eventually find their way into drinking water.

And now we've taken the stupidity to the next level....

you pump non degradable products into the ground they will eventually find their way into drinking water.

Did you learn that in the capillarity unit of the Douchesquirts Principles & Practices of Hydrogeology textbook? Because that would be a neat trick for a fluid to permeate upwards through a mile of rock and "eventually find its way into the drinking water".

Dumbfuck.

Synthetic chemicals discovered in the aquifer are just as likely â€Å"the result of contamination from their own sampling,” he said.

True. One of the biggest problems encountered in QA/QC issues with water sampling techniques is cross-comtamination due to sloppy procedure---especially when you're using bailers to fill a sample vial that requires a positive meniscus.

TH: SOOOO just assume cross contamination, assume poor sampling? Ummm if cross contaminated, the compounds detected came from another contaminated well? alcohols and glycols and SOCs are not typical lab contaminants, which is the primary source of QA/QC issues. the use of a bailer is not likely to increase cross cotnamination, typical EPA procedure (which undoubtedly was used given the sensitivity of the topic) requires dedicated bailers.

While testing detected petroleum hydrocarbons in wells and in groundwater, the agency at the time said it couldn’t pinpoint the source of the contamination.

But the hits they got in this were "synthetic chemicals such as glycols and alcohols", which aren't hydrocarbons.

TH: pointless drivel discussing rhetoric. Only question is Are the SOCS and glycols and alcohols used in the fracking process.

Levels of the chemicals in the deep wells are â€Å"well above” acceptable standards under the Safe Drinking Water Act, the agency said.

What an interesting fact to bury in the 11th paragraph of your "news" story. That is some outstanding journalism and truly demonstrates Jim Efstathiou Jr's commitment to seeking objective truth as he does God's thankless work as an "objective journalist". The ignorant left-wing cunt from the joke that is the NRDC got to tell us what a "game changer" this was in the 4th paragraph.

TH: not quite sure your point beyond partisanship. Being above the SDWA standards is pretty big news.

Fracking chemicals may have entered the aquifer through faulty well construction, gaps in impermeable rock or fractures created during drilling, the EPA said.

Yep.

TH: OR more likely were in the aquifer sampled. Again, you cant assume faulty construction. The drillers who install these wells know what they ar doing. Why dont you give some information on the extensive training and licensing these well drillers are required to obtain?

Anybody with a slightly greater than Trig Palin understanding about the principles and practices of oil & gas extraction; and/or hydrogeology understands how remote the possibility of aquifer contamination is due to hydraulic fracturing techniques.

TH: well unless one is a partisan hack, one would realize that pumping in millions of gallons of contaminated water will contaminate groundwater which in turn could be drinking water. ANd here we have testing

SNIP

FTA

Hock said he wasn’t sure if Encana used the synthetic chemicals found in the aquifer when fracking wells in Pavillion.

TH: Total and utter bullshit. COmplete and utter and complete bullshit. This gentleman knows exactly what is pumped into the ground. If he does not he is the most incompetent person in the industry.

or excuse me, Hock COULD be intentionally left ignorant so he can make a statement such as he did. which is telling in and of itself.

Research the well in question. It is a vertical,(that's straight down), shallow well. If the casing is improperly sealed these wells might leak. Constant monitoring is a good thing. Deep horizontal wells are much less likely to leak.

#11 | Posted by jdmeth at

The drillers who install these monitoring wells are highly experienced and trained professionals with decades of experience and numerous licenses. The likelihood that the wells were improperly sealed while possible is less likely that the wells actually being contaminated.

The drillers who install these monitoring wells are highly experienced and trained professionals with decades of experience and numerous licenses. The likelihood that the wells were improperly sealed while possible is less likely that the wells actually being contaminated.

Do you know how profoundly fucking stupid that statement you just typed is?

you pump non degradable products into the ground they will eventually find their way into drinking water.

And now we've taken the stupidity to the next level....

#29 | Posted by Jak_Se_Mao at

raises eyebrow

ummm they bust up the rock by injecting high pressure water and non degradable SOCs. The rock is in contact either abutting or adjacent to the groundwater and you would have us believe that it is stupidity to think that the SOCs will not reach the groundwater? Despite your earlier argument that wells could leak? Therefore, the fracking wells could also leak, nay?

The drillers who install these monitoring wells are highly experienced and trained professionals with decades of experience and numerous licenses. The likelihood that the wells were improperly sealed while possible is less likely that the wells actually being contaminated.

Do you know how profoundly fucking stupid that statement you just typed is?

#34 | Posted by Jak_Se_Mao

ok, then you would agree therefore,that the fracking wells could leak, correct?

jak, before you embarrass yourself I am more knowledgable on the subject than your average DRer

"No you haven't.

There is no documented evidence of groundwater contamination due to fracking."

Yes, there very clearly is. Now you've gone from saying "no proof" to "no evidence". That former is debatable if you are willing to suspend the common sense. The latter is claim on your part is an outright lie.

"A "settlement" doesn't mean anything other than a company finds it cheaper to pay it than it does to prove a negative in a protracted legal battle. And you're more than welcome to post some kind of link to whatever settlement you think you've seen."

www.newsinferno.com

All you have to do is Google "fracking settlements" and a bunch of stuff pops up. But Mao, the "expert" is totally unaware of any of these cases or any evidence at all that fracking has ever bothered anyone in the least.....

Your ignorance is not evidence of anything, Mao. Pretend to be the expert all you want but you're clearly wrong.

Did you learn that in the capillarity unit of the Douchesquirts Principles & Practices of Hydrogeology textbook? Because that would be a neat trick for a fluid to permeate upwards through a mile of rock and "eventually find its way into the drinking water".

Dumbfuck.

#30 | Posted by Jak_Se_Mao

does bedrock have fractures in it? even before you have intentionally fractured said bedrock? does water not travel through fractures, does water not travel from high pressure to low pressure?

The only way a groundwater well is going to be contaminated with fracking chemicals is through faulty casing.

Do your dumb ass a favor and find yourself some kind of map that is a scaled, spatial representation of the distances, bedrock strata, etc. between oil and gas formations and aquifers.

Let's make today the first day of a big new world for you.....

does bedrock have fractures in it?

Down in the formation it does.

does water not travel through fractures

Not a mile upwards, through solid bedrock---or even fractured bedrock.

The only way a groundwater well is going to be contaminated with fracking chemicals is through faulty casing.

#39 | Posted by Jak_Se_Mao

Well jacks himself is moving in the right direction, at least he is admitting that groundwater COULD be impacted that is an improvement I suppose.

does bedrock have fractures in it?

Down in the formation it does.

TH: well more accurately the entire formation

does water not travel through fractures

Not a mile upwards, through solid bedrock---or even fractured bedrock.

#40 | Posted by Jak_Se_Mao at

TH: WRONG

I'll only believe fracking can cause problems when I hear it straight from a man in a cowboy hat with boots on and straw in his teeth and even then only after I see his employee ID from a gas company and a driver's license from a southern state!

Yeehaw!

Douchesquirts, you were given a task to do in #39.

Don't come back until you've completed it.

Until then, you're wasting my time.

#43 | Posted by Sully at 2011-12-12 11:10 AM | Reply | Flag: I got nothing. But look at me!

Stupid shit.

sure jackmeoff and you are tasked with revisioning the laws of hydrodynamics

"#43 | Posted by Sully at 2011-12-12 11:10 AM | Reply | Flag: I got nothing. But look at me!"

First off, that was a pretty accurate spoof of your position.

Secondly, I shredded that position.

All you've got is a face full of your own bullshit after I rubbed your nose in it, sweety...

"does water not travel through fractures"

Not a mile upwards, through solid bedrock---or even fractured bedrock.

#40 | Posted by Jak_Se_Mao

At the extreme pressures that are used in fracking, I would think that the fluid most certainly could travel upwards through fissures in bedrock to contaminate well water, as could the natural gas that's been released by the process.

and the load that the bedrock places on the water forces it upward as well.

Secondly, I shredded that position.

To "shred", in this context, means to debunk. And you've done nothing of the sort.

You got your ass handed to you because you're incapable of defending your assertion that fracking impacts groundwater---and that has a lot to do with the fact that you don't know what the fuck your talking about.....your tepid little cunt-wafts about what you've "heard" or seen on YouTube notwithstanding.

At the extreme pressures that are used in fracking, I would think that the fluid most certainly could travel upwards through fissures in bedrock to contaminate well water, as could the natural gas that's been released by the process.

The "extreme pressures" occur over a mile below the earth's surface, and the gas routes upwards through the well casing, which is the only nexus between the formation and the surface. The idea that fluids somehow magically migrate upwards through karstic fissures in thousands of feet of rock to an aquifer near the surface is absurd. Those are two totally different worlds with respect to the movement and behavior of fluids.

and the load that the bedrock places on the water forces it upward as well.

Jesus fucking Christ you're an idiot.

Tell you what, douchesquirts....I've got another task for you.

I want you to calculate how much head pressure it requires to move a column of water upwards in....let's say a 12" ID pipe....vertically placed.....a total of 10,000 feet.

I want you to calculate how much head pressure it requires to move a column of water upwards in....let's say a 12" ID pipe....vertically placed.....a total of 10,000 feet.

#52 | Posted by Jak_Se_Mao at 2011-12-12 11:48 AM

willing to bet it is less than the pressure needed to fracture bedrock

"To "shred", in this context, means to debunk. And you've done nothing of the sort."

You've repeatedly claimed that there is "zero evidence" of fracking chems contaminating water. Yet, there are numerous examples of this happening:

Well water is clean.

Fracking occurs close to well.

Well water is contaminated.

Frackers give money to compensate home owners for contaminated well.

I gave you a link to one such story. A simple Google search will reveal several others.

That right there is "evidence" that fracking fucked up those wells, whether you want to pretend to no understand what "evidence" means or not, shitbird.

Y"ou got your ass handed to you because you're incapable of defending your assertion that fracking impacts groundwater---"

Except I did. Your "zero evidence" claim was proven 100% false. And you choose to pretend it didn't happen. Because you're an ignorant twat who obviously knows less about this than anyone posting on this thread.

Your "zero evidence" claim was proven 100% false

No it wasn't.

There is zero evidence that fracking has any impact on groundwater.

Well water is clean.

Fracking occurs close to well.

Well water is contaminated.

That's not "evidence".

That's Sally's cunt-waft.

Now I look forward to you providing something that dazzles us all with regards to how fluid can defy the laws of physics, gravity, hydrogeology, and common fucking sense.

"That's not "evidence"."

Of course it is. Only a retard would think it a coincidence that wells become contaminated after fracking occurs locally. And even the gas companies know this because they are settling and forcing the homeowners to sign gag orders.

You apparently don't know what "evidence" means.

"Now I look forward to you providing something that dazzles us all with regards to how fluid can defy the laws of physics, gravity, hydrogeology, and common fucking sense."

No, I don't have to. You are trying to limit what constitutes "evidence" to your narrowly defined parameters because you know you are wrong. This little trick may work whatever local simpletons you pay to pretend you know what the fuck you are talking about but us big city folk aren't so easily dazzled by know it alls slinging bullcrap. The fact that the chemicals are showing up in wells is evidence, dumbass.

Not only that but we've already established that the fluids don't spontaneously appear a mile underground even though your entire position seems predicated on this fantasy.......

there is direct evidence that fracking-contaminated well water causes backwater texans with a shit-stained linguistic dictionary and a chip on their shoulder the size of big bend country to start frothing at the mouth and shrilly repeat certain obscenities like "fucking" and "cunts" and act like general buffoons whenever the subject is mentioned.

ummm they bust up the rock by injecting high pressure water and non degradable SOCs. The rock is in contact either abutting or adjacent to the groundwater and you would have us believe that it is stupidity to think that the SOCs will not reach the groundwater? Despite your earlier argument that wells could leak? Therefore, the fracking wells could also leak, nay?

#35 | Posted by truthhurts

Mr Truth-dude, the scenario you describe above would & DOES accomplish the REMOVAL fossil fuel products from the proximity of ground-water .. where they naturally co-existed for eons

~ high fives & a hearty thanks to Haliburton!

ummm please open a dictionary and learn the definition of fracturing.

THEN proceed to google fracking bedrock and learn about chemicals used in process

THEN return here. Otherwise your input, like your life, is pointless.

Only a retard would think it a coincidence that wells become contaminated after fracking occurs locally.

Its not a coincidence, dumbshit. The substances found in the "contaminated" are also naturally occuring in the ambient groundwater. There is no link between the fracking activities and elevated methane---other than lawyers and a sense of victimhood.

And even the gas companies know this because they are settling and forcing the homeowners to sign gag orders.

It's a "settlement" stupid fuck. It doesn't "prove" anything except the fact that it is cheaper to settle than to fight a protracted legal battle to prove a negative. But we've already covered that above.

You apparently don't know what "evidence" means.

I know you've yet to establish any kind of evidence that fracking contaminates groundwater supplies. But don't feel bad, neither has anyone else.

are trying to limit what constitutes "evidence" to your narrowly defined parameters

In this case, "evidence" constitutes some indication that injecting fluids 1 to 2 miles beneath the surface of the earth somehow has any fucking impact whatsoever on a groundwater supply way up near the surface. There's nothing narrow about that parameter at all.

Not only that but we've already established that the fluids don't spontaneously appear a mile underground

We've established that fluids are injected a mile underground, and that there is no evidence that fluids injected a mile underground have any impact on aquifers a mile above them.

We've also established that you're somewhat of a dumbfuck with an opinion that is informed by little else than emotion.

Despite the fact that hydraulic fracturing has been employed for half a century at comparable depths of thousands of feet, opponents of natural gas insist that groundwater is now being contaminated. This claim, no matter how many times it is repeated, lacks substantive data to support its conclusions as both the national association of state groundwater agencies and the multistate governmental agency representing states' oil and gas interests have found no evidence of groundwater contamination from hydraulic fracturing fluids.

www.usnews.com

Debate Club Sponsored by Shell

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAhAHA

Tooo

FRACKING

FUNNY

"Its not a coincidence, dumbshit. The substances found in the "contaminated" are also naturally occuring in the ambient groundwater. There is no link between the fracking activities and elevated methane---other than lawyers and a sense of victimhood."

Fail. We're not talking about just methane. Your ignorance to the facts doesn't mean they don't exist. Do some homework and come back when you are qualified to discuss.

"It's a "settlement" stupid fuck. It doesn't "prove" anything except the fact that it is cheaper to settle than to fight a protracted legal battle to prove a negative. But we've already covered that above."

If there were really no evidence at all linking them to the pollution, as you suggest, then they would not be settling. You can pretend otherwise all you want but it doesn't make any sense.....

"In this case, "evidence" constitutes some indication that injecting fluids 1 to 2 miles beneath the surface of the earth somehow has any fucking impact whatsoever on a groundwater supply way up near the surface. There's nothing narrow about that parameter at all."

Where fracking occurs, wells are polluted and the companies compensate the injured parties. That's evidence. Deal with it, dummy.

"We've established that fluids are injected a mile underground, and that there is no evidence that fluids injected a mile underground have any impact on aquifers a mile above them."

Dumbshit - Some of the water (I've read half) returns to the surface and has to be treated. Not even the frackers deny this. This isn't even debatable. So either you didn't know this or you did an keep forwarding an intellectually dishoenst arguement anyway. Either way, you are unqualified to discuss this sensibly.

"We've also established that you're somewhat of a dumbfuck with an opinion that is informed by little else than emotion."

My opinion is based on reality and common sense. You obviously know less about this anyone here and are just making an emotional arguement based on your narrow little party approved world view.

We're not talking about just methane.

If you're talking about fracking chemicals, you're even more fucked, because there is nothing, no evidence whatsoever, of fracking chemicals having migrated upwards through a mile of bedrock and into the water supply.

If there were really no evidence at all linking them to the pollution, as you suggest, then they would not be settling

Again, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Companies settle all the time and pay off a plantiff to avoid legal battles---even if there is no culpability whatsoever.

Where fracking occurs, wells are polluted and the companies compensate the injured parties.

That's not "evidence", douchnozzle. Where fracking doesn't occur wells are polluted. Naturally high levels of methane occur in ambient groundwater. "Evidence" pertains to establishing some causality between whatever somebody finds in their well (in an aquifer near the surface) and the act of injecting fluids through thousands and thousands of feet of lithology into an oil and gas formation.

Dumbshit - Some of the water (I've read half) returns to the surface and has to be treated.

You stupid motherfucker, it travels back up the same way it goes down---in a cased wellbore. It doesn't percolate upwards through a mile of bedrock, through an aquifer, bubble to the surface, and magically transport itself into the frac-tank for treatment.

My opinion is based on reality and common sense.

Your opinion is based on what you know about the fracking process, hydrogeology, and lithology.

In other words, it's based on jack shit.

Now go learn something and get back to me when you can demonstrate to me what an environmental disaster all this "evil" fracking is.

Gee Jak Off,

Did it ever occur to you that the natural gas (or oil) well itself provides the path for groundwater contamination, even if there's a verticle mile between them.

In a move straight out of the tobacco industries playbook, those residences whose faucets became flammable soon after fracking occurred in their neighborhood, are sworn to silence after being bought out. I suppose you think the oil companies would buy these victims out of their residences for no reason. Some victims become ill or develop rashes after taking a shower from water wells that have been safe for hundreds of years, until fracking.

Who gives a frack? There's nothing more important than extracting and burning up as much fossil fuels as quickly as possible. It's every American's patriotic duty. Burn it, baby, burn it.

#4 | Posted by nullifidian

You say this sarcastically, yet, the electric car and other alternative poser creation is just not taking off as it should.

"Companies settle all the time and pay off a plantiff to avoid legal battles---even if there is no culpability whatsoever."

Not in cases where there is "zero evidence" against them. Your pretentions to the contrary are ridiculous. I understand that they may settle in cases where they could still win in court. But they don't settle when there is absolutely nothing to link them to the injured party. You're making that up.

"That's not "evidence", douchnozzle."

Of course it is. The correlation between well contamination and local fracking is evidence. Your claims to the contrary are obviously wrong.

"You stupid motherfucker, it travels back up the same way it goes down---in a cased wellbore. It doesn't percolate upwards through a mile of bedrock, through an aquifer, bubble to the surface, and magically transport itself into the frac-tank for treatment."

There may be laws about this now, but it used to be kept in open pools and sprayed into the air as "treatment". You can pretend all you want that every drop of this shit is well accounted for but you're not fooling anyone. These shafts are not water proof either. They are "sealed" with concrete being poured blindly into a mold. On the way down and the way back up there is opportunity for the water to contaminate the surrounding area and its happened and has been documented.

If fracking were planned next to your property, we both know you'd be concerned. But as long as it others being poisoned you are cozy in your protective layer of ignorance.

Who gives a frack? There's nothing more important than extracting and burning up as much fossil fuels as quickly as possible. It's every American's patriotic duty. Burn it, baby, burn it.

#4 | Posted by nullifidian

You say this sarcastically, yet, the electric car and other alternative poser creation is just not taking off as it should.

#67 | Posted by Eddie

Yes and thank god we can still race our muscle cars in a circle.

Aren't there enough cases around this country of communities being ruined by Fracking that you don't really need the scientist and bureaucrats to come to a consensus to prove it?

I mean...

1. Everything is fine. People have lived there 200 years...
2. Frackers come in and put wells in. Nothing else changes.
3. Suddenly people are sick, their drinking water is burnable, contaminants are found in the water, etc.

I mean it is an assumption. But is damned hard to "prove" the wells and fracking are the source - but give me a break. The oil industry is a bit notorious for profits before safety after all.

Another great example is aquifer around here. There are big farming operations that irrigate. When they turn their pumps on; the wells of the houses within half a mile radius go dry. DEQ and courts says it can't be proved that is the reason - yet when they turn them off the water comes back? Give me a break. I mean that just defies logic.

Then there are things like underground coal fires that cause problems as well. Centralia, PA is the most famous. But we also have them in the area I am from. In this case it is impossible to deny though...

Now - is Fracking always bad. I am not convinced it is. However Fracking is a proceses of fracturing rock formations for the purpose of extracting gas or oil. The use hydraulic pressure to do so. So if you are breaking rock, does it not stand to reason you are creating fissures of unintended consequence as well? That the pressure induced is sufficient to drive things through new and existing fissures toward the surface? I have looked into it quite a bit and I know a little about geology, mechanics, etc. It is ignorant to think these problems are not caused by Fracking.

"1. Everything is fine. People have lived there 200 years...
2. Frackers come in and put wells in. Nothing else changes.
3. Suddenly people are sick, their drinking water is burnable, contaminants are found in the water, etc."

Don't forget:

4. Energy company settles with sick people for undisclosed amounts in exchange for signing a gag order even though there is nothing to hide.

But we're not allowed to have common sense. Common sense is bad for job creators, the flag and gold star mothers.

I really do enjoy the irony that this aquifer is in Wyoming, seeing that Dickless Cheney was the turd who allowed this to happen via the secret energy meetings!

Go Red States! Just don't drink the water.....or get it near an open flame!

"Just don't drink the water.....or get it near an open flame!"

But think of lighting farts!
All that benzine!

The Fracking Song

CAN YOU DO THIS WITH YOUR TAP WATER?

Dont drink this water

Can you imagine a fire department using that shit?
(On Jak's house.)

One thing that puzzles me about this story is the number of vertical wells 50, 60 years and older that are leaking in the water tables are never mentioned. Pennsylvania is full of them. shitty casing technology and corrosion has done much more damage. Shale gas and oil has the potential to solve our energy demands until something better comes along. we need to figure out how to improve the process for sure.

The only way a groundwater well is going to be contaminated with fracking chemicals is through faulty casing.

The ONLY way Jak? And you sounded so sure of yourself!

Pennsylvania's Department of Environmental Protection in 2009 concluded faulty well casings and drilling operations contaminated the groundwater) doesn't hold up -- if that were the case, methane concentrations would be high in wells located farther from the shale gas site as well.

Although the study is able to rule out biogenic gas (from shallow sources) that could have been previously present in wells, it does not rule out methane from deep sources unrelated to the production wells. Nor does it identify -- assuming the gas was not present in the well water before drilling began -- whether the gas got there from poor cementing around the casing, upward migration from the fracked seam, old wells, or from microfractures created farther above the seam that allow methane in other areas to migrate to the wells.

www.rff.org

I suggest you all read the.... whole.... artical first.

Then speak.

As for Pavillion Wyoming:

It is 0.2 Sq. miles in area. Yes I said 0.2 Sq miles.

"All land" no lakes.

In 2000 there were 165 people living there.

Reitze seems to be trying to give you the idea that what ever is going on is effecting tens of thousands of people's health at this moment.
No, he did not say that, but he also did not say any of the above.

Which he should have if he knew, which I doubt.

Read the story again and carefully understand just what is being said by whome.

.....NOPE in 2012..... The the unions of teachers. (Better ?)

I think I have a bad "N" key.

Then the unions of teachers.

does water not travel through fractures

Not a mile upwards, through solid bedrock---or even fractured bedrock.

#40 | Posted by Jak_Se_Mao at

I always knew the geysers at Yellowstone were fake!
Thanks Jak!

Aren't there enough cases around this country of communities being ruined by Fracking that you don't really need the scientist and bureaucrats to come to a consensus to prove it?

No, there aren't.

Suddenly people are sick, their drinking water is burnable, contaminants are found in the water, etc

There's a dipshit marketing a movie called Gasland which purports to show flammable tapwater. The probem is, the subtances that make the water flammable are naturally occuring. The wells in Parker County were flaring/ignitible long before fracking was ever used as a production technique. The video of a flaming garden hose is not even connected to the source of the water, It's a vent hose.

What you have are a shrill group of fucking idiots who, with absolutely zero scientific evidence, are trying to pretend this process is contaminating their well water supplies---which is preposterous. People can "claim" anything when they have an opportunity to make money via a lawsuit. Pretty much anybody in the technical community understands there is not a real problem---but rather a perceived or political problem. Processes occurring 5000 to 6000 feet below the surface don't instanteously migrates up to land surface.

Another great example is aquifer around here. There are big farming operations that irrigate. When they turn their pumps on; the wells of the houses within half a mile radius go dry. DEQ and courts says it can't be proved that is the reason - yet when they turn them off the water comes back?

That's not a great example of anything. In fact, that has nothing to fracking or the ability of fluids to migrate through 5,000 feet of bedrock and magically contaminate wells.

So if you are breaking rock, does it not stand to reason you are creating fissures of unintended consequence as well?

Yes. A mile or two below the earth's surface.

That the pressure induced is sufficient to drive things through new and existing fissures toward the surface?

It may drive it towards the surface, just as I might throw a wad of paper towards China. There's not enough ambient pressure to push fluids upwards through a mile of bedrock---that's preposterous.

The ONLY way Jak? And you sounded so sure of yourself!

That's because I am.

And you might want to pay a little bit closer attention to what you reproduce from your link. It says absolutely nothing or than what a particular study failed to identify.

There is zero evidence that fracking has any impact on groundwater.

Fucking deal with it.

In 2000 there were 165 people living there.

Reitze seems to be trying to give you the idea that what ever is going on is effecting tens of thousands of people's health at this moment.
No, he did not say that, but he also did not say any of the above.

Which he should have if he knew, which I doubt.

Read the story again and carefully understand just what is being said by whome.

.....NOPE in 2012..... The the unions of teachers. (Better ?)

Posted by MENSAKOOK at 2011-12-12 07:00 PM | Reply

Right....because aquifers understand invisible lines drawn on the map....sure.

p.s. Mensa huh?

There is zero evidence that fracking has any impact on groundwater.

Fucking deal with it.

#80 | Posted by Jak_Se_Mao at 2011-12-12 07:25 PM | Reply | Flag:

Drink up, stupid!

"I'm not aware of any proven case where the fracking process itself has affected water...".

---Leftist Hack/EPA Administrator Lisa Jackson

It says absolutely nothing or than what a particular study failed to identify.

its says that water in the wells can be contaminated by means other than through a faulty casing.

It can come from microfractures created farther above the seam that allow methane in other areas to migrate to the wells.

And this is just what fracking does according to the EPA.

Groundwater contamination doesn't come directly from injecting fracking chemicals deep into Shale rock formations well below water aquifers but from waste water evaporation ponds and poorly constructed pipelines taking the waste water and chemicals to processing facilities.

A 2011 report by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology addressed groundwater contamination, noting "There has been concern that these fractures can also penetrate shallow freshwater zones and contaminate them with fracturing, but there is no evidence that this is occurring.

its says that water in the wells can be contaminated by means other than through a faulty casing. It can come from microfractures created farther above the seam that allow methane in other areas to migrate to the wells.

It doesn't say that at all.

Can you not fucking read?

Nor does it identify -- assuming the gas was not present in the well water before drilling began -- whether the gas got there from poor cementing around the casing, upward migration from the fracked seam, old wells, or from microfractures created farther above the seam that allow methane in other areas to migrate to the wells.

It says absolutely nothing or than what a particular study failed to identify.

Dumbass.

It says absolutely nothing or than what a particular study failed to identify.

it identified the microfractures as an option not a cause

it does not rule out methane from deep sources unrelated to the production wells. Nor does it identify...

So microfractures created farther above the seam that allow methane in other areas to migrate to the wells are not an option according to you as you told us there is NO OTHER WAY EXCEPT A FAULTY CASING.

Yet the chemical signature of fracking was found in the well water.

so according to you there is No other way it could have got there except a faulty casing....and yet it is possible that microfractures do allow methane in other areas to migrate to the wells...

got it

It can come from microfractures created farther above the seam that allow methane in other areas to migrate to the wells.

And this is just what fracking does according to the EPA.
#84 | Posted by donnerboy

dude .. get ahold or yourself and quit talking silly
mineral lease records from 1976 to present indicate nearly 500,000 producing SHALLOW NATURAL GAS WELLS in USA ..
these are NOT FRACKED WELLS .. they are into the SAME sandstone/limse-stone layers where the aquifer resides
O-M-G .. it's just mother nature stuff my friend .. the sky is not falling

With regards to the EPA, Chocolate Carter appointed a fucking joke of a human being named Al Armendariz to head our region (Region 6). This piece of shit has made quite a name for himself for his inability to come to conclusions based on scientific reality. His behavior in the Range case in Parker County, Texas is no exception.

I can't link to Colleen Schreiber's outstanding piece in Livestock Weekly this week because it's subscription only, but it absolutely shreds this shrieking fucking horseshit that tends to surround the issue:

John Riley, attorney with Vinson & Elkins LLP, started off [The Texas Railroad Commission Panel] with more discussion on the legal issues. Referring back to the EPA emergency order, he played part of a news clip of Alfredo "Al" Armendariz, EPA regional administrator for Region 6, a 2009 Obama appointee, who initiated the order.

In that clip Armendariz made a firm statement about how the EPA had proven that an emergency order needed to be issued. He talked about his personal enforcement philosophy being like that of the Romans, where you crucify the first five people you see, and then after that the town pretty well behaves.

"I've spent 28 years practicing law,' Riley said. "Fifteen of those years were in some form of governmental enforcement, and I've never heard of anyone in that entire time, even the most zealous prosecutors in the DAs office, express themselves in such an irresponsible fashion.".............

Riley also showed a copy of an e-mail from EPA's Armendariz sent to colleagues in the environmental community, including the Environmental Defense Fund, WildEarth Guardians Public Citizen and Environmental Integrity Project, informing them that "we're about to make a lot of news." The e-mail was sent less than 30 minutes after Range was informed of the emergency order. In fact, EPA had already given news interviews and written a press release before Range was even alerted about the order.

Range won a discovery dispute in the U.S. District Court for the Western District of Texas. EPA was ordered to appear for deposition. In wrapping up his comments, Riley offered a list of what he termed "key admissions" by the EPA during that deposition. First, EPA admitted that they performed no evaluation of the geology of the area and other potential sources such as the Strawn formation, a much shallower, natural gas-producing stratum. They also admitted to ignoring their own experts, both internal and external, with respect to opinions pertaining to the limited isotopic analyses.

"Their fundamental position is that there wasn't gas in the wells until Range began its operation, so it must be that Range caused it, because after they began production, gas was found in those wells," Riley said.

The most "shocking" admission that came during the EPA deposition, he continued, was that the EPA personnel admitted that the administrative record submitted to the Fifth Circuit was incomplete. The EPA, Riley said, "cherry picked" the record submitted. For example, they failed to submit information which clearly showed that domestic water wells in the area were known to be flaring gas as far back as 2005.

Dr. Charles Kreitler, a hydrogeologist with Austin-based LBG-Guyton Associates, was brought in on the case in mid-December 2010. He followed up with still more details, calling it a "fascinating case" but definitely a "Chicken Little and the sky is falling type of issue."

dude .. get ahold or yourself and quit talking silly

not my words. I am just quoting the EPA experts and scientists (who) have recognized that there is real contamination, that there is a real scientific basis for linking it to fracking."

I bet you guys can't wait to get you man in charge again so you can finally get rid of those dumbass experts and scientists once and for all.

maybe you guys can put Michelle Bachmann or Rick Perry in charge of the EPA and they can just pray all those fracking problems away.

N

not my words. I am just quoting the EPA experts and scientists (who) have recognized that there is real contamination, that there is a real scientific basis for linking it to fracking."
#90 | Posted by donnerboy
fair enough .. that you are quoting EPA, a gvt bureaucracy ..
~ but, I have learned to be a bit skeptical whenever Gvt tells me anything .. especially where gvt has an interest & it's counter to common sense ..
and, my Gvt proves me right time after time after time

B.) People who thing public policy can alter macro-climate cycles

macroclimate
[mak-ruh-klahy-mit]
mac·ro·cli·mate
noun
the general climate of a large area, as of a continent or country.

With that statement, Pinche moves the goalposts, twice.
First, Pinche avoids the word and the topic "global."
Second, instead of denying antropogenic warming, Pinche denies there's anthropogenic disruption of some non-global "cycle."

That made absolutely no sense whatsoever.

You are a profoundly stupid shit.

Now take a breath, compose yourself, and try again to express what it is you think you're trying to say.

The mythical notion of "anthropogenic global warming"---or whatever the fuck you zealot fucks call it this week--is (supposed to be) expressed by changes, both extreme and gradual, in the various macroclimate cyles that exist throughout the globe. One of the components of "climate" is temperature.

Beyond that, I'm not quite sure what the fuck it is you're babbling about. But that's OK, because neither do you.

Actually, cult-members like Snoofy are a perfect illustration of what invent, publicizes, and drives pop-culture myths about the effects of activities like hydraulic fracking.

The issue isn't groundwater contamination, and it never was. The bigger issue is our use of hydrocarbons and other realities that fly in the face of how the un-American, anti-progress, anti-humanity Left feel we should be living our lives. That's why they have to lie, mislead, and otherwise feel obligated to reason from predetermined conclusions back to carefully selected facts, rather than vice-versa.

That's kind of a shitty, Nazi-like basis for forming public policy, but not surprising.

Jackoff is a paid oil company whore. Panneonazi is just a fucking slut who parrots oil company lies for free.

Neither of them can be believed.

They should have to prove it!The Other side should have their experts because the government has an agenda of obstruction.

Jackoff is a paid oil company whore.

#96 | Posted by axe at 2011-12-12 10:42 PM | Reply | Flag: jealous because his excrement whore gig doesn't even pay minimum wage

Jackoff is a paid oil company whore

I make millions on here, bitch.

David Koch is giving me a Bilderberg mousepad just for this post alone...

The Other side should have their experts because the government has an agenda of obstruction.

Unfortunately, this government really does.

The EPA is a disgrace---particularly Region 6.

Be it the flexible permit disgrace, setting arbitrary ambient air quality standards, the fracking witchunts, coal-plant permitting, or any number of other issues....what is going on right now is very, very close to criminality. I regularly talk to the older folks in the enforcement, industry, and consulting sectors most of whom agree this is the most unscientific and ideological EPA there has ever been. There will be an accounting in 2013. There need to be some bureaucrats prosecuted---starting at the top.

The issue isn't groundwater contamination, and it never was. The bigger issue is our use of hydrocarbons and other realities that fly in the face of how the un-American, anti-progress, anti-humanity Left feel we should be living our lives. That's why they have to lie, mislead, and otherwise feel obligated to reason from predetermined conclusions back to carefully selected facts, rather than vice-versa.

I'm scoring this a full-point ad hominem attack.

Notice the bait-and-switch, where suddenly the topic is no longer groundwater contamination, but instead let's talk about how Snoofy is glad 9/11 happened to America because we deserve it. Now, follow closely, because Pinche is putting on a clinic here: Immediately upon assigning a false position, Pinche makes accusations of lying and misleading, which is in fact precisely what Pinche just did.

Think of it as doubling down on crazy.

Earlier, Pinche flirted with reality,

The mythical notion of "anthropogenic global warming"---or whatever the fuck you zealot fucks call it this week--is (supposed to be) expressed by changes, both extreme and gradual, in the various macroclimate cyles that exist throughout the globe. One of the components of "climate" is temperature.

Despite the pejorative language, this seems to be informed, accurate, and reasonable enough. Let's see where Pinche goes with it, this could be good:

Beyond that, I'm not quite sure what the fuck it is you're babbling about.

Oh, dear. Pinche set the table, but didn't feel comfortable taking a seat. That's a shame.

"Oh, dear. Pinche set the table, but didn't feel comfortable taking a seat. That's a shame."

Regardless of the intended target/audience, that's poetic.

In 2000 there were 165 people living there.

Reitze seems to be trying to give you the idea that what ever is going on is effecting tens of thousands of people's health at this moment.
No, he did not say that, but he also did not say any of the above.

Which he should have if he knew, which I doubt.

Read the story again and carefully understand just what is being said by whome.

.....NOPE in 2012..... The the unions of teachers. (Better ?)

Posted by MENSAKOOK at 2011-12-12 07:00 PM | Reply

Right....because aquifers understand invisible lines drawn on the map....sure.

p.s. Mensa huh?

#81 | Posted by COMMONSENSE

I give some idea of the area we are talking about,then ask every one to reread the artical to understand whos saying what and you have a problem with that ?

Attacking what you THINK is going on WILL NOT help you find out what is going on.

.......NOPE in 2012....Then the unions of teachers.

Notice the bait-and-switch, where suddenly the topic is no longer groundwater contamination

I see it!

Its right there in Post #93!

B.) People who thing public policy can alter macro-climate cycles

macroclimate
[mak-ruh-klahy-mit]
mac·ro·cli·mate
noun
the general climate of a large area, as of a continent or country.

#93 | Posted by snoofy

So please tell me what is it you think you're babbling about.

You've made precisely two posts on this thread, both of which have nothing to with the topic.

Most people do not trust the EPA and their politically motivated studies any more than they trust congress.

There is zero evidence of fracking chemicals getting into drinking water!

Unless you read the linked article.

Or the numerous cases of these companies paying people off after poisoning them.

Or use some common sense which tells you that you can't pour millions of gallons of tainted water into the ground without some of it contaminating the local environment. Or that concrete blindly poured down a hole is not waterproof.

But other than that, there is ZERO EVIDENCE!

LOL!

#105 | Posted by YouHateMe at 2011-12-13 09:51 AM | Reply | Flag: dismally stupid, like most people

Drink some Benzine and get back to us, retard.

Drink some Benzine and get back to us, retard.

#107 | POSTED BY ZATOICHI AT 2011-12-13 10:01 AM | REPLY | FLAG

Some arrogant shit stains like Zatoichi worship the EPA.

Jackoff is a paid oil company whore.

#96 | Posted by axe at 2011-12-12 10:42 PM | Reply | Flag: jealous because his excrement whore gig doesn't even pay minimum wage

#98 | Posted by goatman at 2011-12-12 10:53 PM | Reply | Flag:birds of a feather whore together

Except I've seen documentation of people being affected negatively and the gas companies settled with them. So I obviously know more about this than you becuase you are apparently ignorant to this undeniable reality..
#27 | POSTED BY SULLY

Don't argue with the shit stain called Jak. He lives in his own bitter right wing reality show that paints anything outside his paradigm as liberal communist masturbating. The positive is that his vile behavior only harms him and will shorten his useless life so the rest of us can move on and evolve. Fuck you jak.

Now go learn something and get back to me when you can demonstrate to me what an environmental disaster all this "evil" fracking is.

#65 | POSTED BY JAK_SE_MAO

now jak off is a hydrologist and scientist..

Article in the NY Times says some folks are starting to link fracking and all those earthquakes that seem to be popping up around the country. www.nytimes.com

Obama's stated energy policy is for electricity prices to necessarily skyrocket. When Capntrade fizzled he began wielding the EPA to achieve his goals and we are all paying for it.

Now go learn something and get back to me when you can demonstrate to me what an environmental disaster all this "evil" fracking is.

#65 | POSTED BY JAK_SE_MAO

now jak off is a hydrologist and scientist..

#111 | Posted by Legio at 2011-12-13 12:57 PM | Reply | Flag:

No, Yak_say_Moo is heavily invested in the frackin' industry... make no mistake if yer a righty yer all about DA MONEY... fuck public health... he doesnt't live near frackin' operations and does not have to drink the tainted water. Fuck those people who don't want contaminants in their water, he says, it's perfectly safe.

"Now I look forward to you providing something that dazzles us all with regards to how fluid can defy the laws of physics, gravity, hydrogeology, and common fucking sense.
#56 | Posted by Jak_Se_Mao"

If it's that simple to prove, why would they pay money to people who suddenly have contaminated wells after fracking takes place near them?

"Now I look forward to you providing something that dazzles us all with regards to how fluid can defy the laws of physics, gravity, hydrogeology, and common fucking sense.
#56 | Posted by Jak_Se_Mao"

If it's that simple to prove, why would they pay money to people who suddenly have contaminated wells after fracking takes place near them?

#115 | Posted by mOntecOre

Why to prove there is no such problems of course.

Jak is an oil industry shill. These wells are not all that deep as he claims for one thing. For another there is know way to know for sure the permeability of rock layers in an area. It is always a best guess based on past history. Then throw in things like the process of casing wells - we all know that never goes wrong right? Then there is the refusal to accept that Fracking is Hydraulic fracturing. Rocks under the pressure at depth have a lovely concoction of good for you stuff pumped down into the rock layer to "break it up" and allow gas and oil to flow. Sure that won't have any effects on other layers.

Lets see oil naturally seeps through how many feet of rock in many areas to come out on the surface? Gas is typically a little deeper but can also be shallower? So Bullshit Jak_Off. When you apply pressure to cause hydraulic fracking you are not just applying enough pressure to make the well produce you are applying enough to break rock. Up to 250 psi from what I understand. If it is a weak well, you may need to maintain pressure to produce but new wells quite often have plenty of pressure to produce on their own... i.e. It just flows out. How much pressure is needed to raise from these depths? Average depths are in the 6000 foot range for gas, but not all are that deep and maybe only somewhat ironically not all cause issues either.

Whenever Big Oil comes in and hands out paychecks willingly - you know they caused a problem and want to keep it quiet. What more can you say? Have they ever done this in Natural Gas Well areas Jak? Or are they just dumb for quietly "settling"?

Obama is removing coal fired plants, responsible for 50% of America's electricity, from production, while the EPA wages war against "fracking" to prevent the nation from exploiting America's vast natural gas resources. His plan is to replace thiw energy with what??????????????????

After all, if you can't triple electricity bills and the price of gasoline, the fake green energy crap will never happen. RIGHT!!!!!!

Obama is removing coal fired plants, responsible for 50% of America's electricity

Link or STFU

Link or STFU

Pick one

Link or STFU

#119 TruthHurts.....

Industry groups such the Edison Electric Institute, which represents investor-owned utilities, and the American Legislative Exchange Council have dubbed the coming rules "EPA's Regulatory Train Wreck." The regulations, they say, will cost utilities up to $129 billion and force them to retire one-fifth of coal capacity. Given that coal provides 45 percent of the country's power, that means higher electric bills, more blackouts and fewer jobs. The doomsday scenario has alarmed Republicans in the House, who have been scrambling to block the measures. Environmental groups retort that the rules will bring sizeable public health benefits, and that industry groups have been exaggerating the costs of environmental regulations since they were first created.
www.washingtonpost.com

Obama is removing coal fired plants

I believe what you meant to say is this:

The White House later this month is likely to approve a highly controversial clean air regulation that will force the electricity industry to either clean up or replace its oldest and dirtiest coal-fired generation plants.

Though the country is mired in slow-growth and a near jobless economic recovery, the Obama administration’s Environmental Protection Agency plans to order the clean-up for one compelling and hard-to-ignore reason: the health benefits for the American public far exceed the costs to either the industry or electricity consumers. The coal plant “maximum achievable control technology” or MACT rule would provide an estimated $10 in health benefits for every $1 of industry costs, according to the EPA.

The regulations, they say, will cost utilities up to $129 billion and force them to retire one-fifth of coal capacity.

They are not forced to retire anything. Americans provide billions in subsidies to the coal industry. $4.5 billion in financing for fossil fuels. Coal profits are up in some case as much as 153%.

Environmental groups retort that the rules will bring sizeable public health benefits, and that industry groups have been exaggerating the costs of environmental regulations since they were first created.

So, once again, according to Republicans, Good Health is bad for you and not worth the cost.

These wells are not all that deep as he claims for one thing

The wells are generally a mile to 2 miles beneath the surface, dumbfuck. That's what I "claim" because that's the general depth of the formations.

For another there is know way to know for sure the permeability of rock layers in an area.

Fracking is employed in relatively impermeable geologic formations for the purpose of creating the fissures that allow the product to flow to the well. In other words, if it were a relatively permeable formation, there would be no need to frack---impermeability is why they frack in the first place, you stupid shit.

Then throw in things like the process of casing wells - we all know that never goes wrong right?

A failure in a well casing is always remote possible, but that doesn't constitute evidence that fracking itself is inherently damaging.

Then there is the refusal to accept that Fracking is Hydraulic fracturing.

That sentence is so breathtakingly stupid I can't believe I wasted 10 seconds of my life reproducing it.

Rocks under the pressure at depth have a lovely concoction of good for you stuff pumped down into the rock layer to "break it up" and allow gas and oil to flow.

The fracking "concoction" is a mix of water, trace chemicals, and sand---well over 99% of which is water and sand. A fraction of a percent might consist of emulsifiers like as guar gum---- diluted in millions of gallons of water.

Sure that won't have any effects on other layers

Sure it will....if the fracking mix somehow defies the principles of physics and/or hydrogeology by migrating upwards through thousands of feet of impermeable rock and into a perched aquifer. Just as an aside, you kind of remind me of a thousand feet of impermeable rock. But I digress.

Lets see oil naturally seeps through how many feet of rock in many areas to come out on the surface?

In some areas where the formation is close to the surface and the lithology allows for it, it certainly does. But those aren't areas where it would be necessary to employ the fracking process, are they dumbass?

When you apply pressure to cause hydraulic fracking you are not just applying enough pressure to make the well produce you are applying enough to break rock.

That's how it works, genius...albeit 4,000 - 12,000 feet below the surface of the earth.

If it is a weak well, you may need to maintain pressure to produce but new wells quite often have plenty of pressure to produce on their own... i.e. It just flows out.

No, shithead. The whole point of employing the technology is to recover the resource in the formation after the natural pressure has subsided. That's what "fracking" is, and why they do it.

why would they pay money to people who suddenly have contaminated wells [sic] after fracking takes place near them

Because it's cheaper than fighting a protracted legal battle whose outcome is dependent upon you proving a negative.

The study cited above in #76 found a correlation between proximity to drilling activity and higher levels of methane in water wells, but, as was pointed out several times, did not attribute this to subsurface migration of natural gas from hydraulic fractures. It was far more likely contamination from shitty well construction than anything related to fracking. Furthermore, they acknowledged that methane is naturally present in nearly ever other well in that area----which is not unusual in any area with hydrocarbon formations.

No, Yak_say_Moo is heavily invested in the frackin' industry... make no mistake if yer a righty yer all about DA MONEY

LOL.

What a fucking dumbshit. Vapid, emotional horseshit is all you can muster. But thanks to me you're a little bit smarter today than you were when you woke up this morning.

You're welcome.

Frankly, I'm a little tired of rubbing peoples' faces in their own fucking ignorance with nothing to bill my time to. And no, I do not work in the oil and gas industry, but a significant part of what I do involves collecting, analyzing, and interpreting environmental data and coming to conclusion based upon these things called "facts". Assumptions don't cut it----especially grandiose, sweeping assumptions that indict and entire process or industry.

The cold, hard truth is that there is no scientific evidence that the practice of hydraulic fracturing is bad for the environment.

Cash settlements made with opportunistic residents who claim their wells to be impacted aren't "scientific evidence".

Your absorption and internalization of pop-culture bullshit regarding the supposed "dangers" of fracking isn't "scientific evidence"

Thoroughly debunked documentaries filled with lies, distortions, and half-truths aren't "scientific evidence".

Get the fuck over it.

Nice thread Jak.

there is no scientific evidence that the practice of hydraulic fracturing is bad for the environment.

What's the p-value for that assertion?

With your vast discernment you should shun all motorized vehicles,ride a bicycle,walk or ride a horse.

fracking should be criminialized and these traitors to humankind need to be punished

The cold, hard truth is that there is no scientific evidence that the practice of hydraulic fracturing is bad for the environment.

There is now.

Defending fracking are ya now?

Is that just knee jerk "Drill baby Drill" GOP rhetoric spewing out of you or do you really think that?

Have you ever not been wrong in your entire life?

Be Well.

"Frankly, I'm a little tired of rubbing peoples' faces in their own fucking ignorance with nothing to bill my time to."

Give it a rest with the know it all bullshit, Nancy. In #25 you claimed that the chems are injected underground through a steel casing, which is total bullshit and you were corrected. You have no idea what the fuck you are talking about. You're getting schooled and pretending its the other way around. You know nothing about this and have proved it. You're good at being a fraud but you've been exposed on this one so move on....

Have you ever not been wrong in your entire life?'

He did vote for Hillary once.

Why is the fuckhead Jak defending this whole fracking process so vigorously? What a pathetic piece of shit.

Because it's cheaper than fighting a protracted legal battle whose outcome is dependent upon you proving a negative.

ummm you also dont seem to understand the legal system.

The defendent doesnt have to prove anything. It is up to the plaintiff to prove his wells were impacted by the fracking. the defendent will attempt to refute the plaintiff's assertion.

The defendent doesnt have to prove anything.

No, but he still has to pay for his defense. Jak's right -- quite often corporations settle a suit against them because it's cheaper than going to court and defending themselves.

ummm you also dont seem to understand the legal system

I don't think you understand economic realities that corporations deal with and what they will do to mitigate them.

umm no goatcheese, I was only pointing out that jakmeoff was stating a falsehood. never commented on the economic principle you discussed.

so once again you are wrong.

I don't think.

#136 | Posted by goatman

FTFY

#138 --

Gee, that was so original, and still oh, so, funny after all these decades and iterations.

But more to the point -- you have no rebuttal to my post so it stands as unchallenged and you concede it to me.

Thank you. It wasn't a total loss for you, though. You got an ancient second grade jab at me and I'm sure you are still rubbing that chubby you got doing it.

umm no goatcheese, I was only pointing out that jakmeoff was stating a falsehood. never commented on the economic principle you discussed.

so once again you are wrong.

His point was clearly that it is cheaper to pay off someone whether than fight him in court. (he clearly states that) You moved the goalpost to something irrelevent about the defense not having to prove anything.

Therefore it is you who are wrong in jak's point -- but correct according to the new place you put the goalposts, which weren't anywhere near their original position.

You got busted. Be a big boy and deal with it even though the truth does hurt.

you have no rebuttal to my post so it stands as unchallenged and you concede it to me.

except for the simple fact that I rebutted you in my post 137

jak meow states corporations cant afford to fight lawsuits because
and I quote "whose outcome is dependent upon you proving a negative."

I point out that

"The defendent doesnt have to prove anything. It is up to the plaintiff to prove his wells were impacted by the fracking. the defendent will attempt to refute the plaintiff's assertion."

So my point being that Jackmeow was wrong about asserting that the oil companies must prove a negative

THEN YOU claim the following

'No, but he still has to pay for his defense. Jak's right -- quite often corporations settle a suit against them because it's cheaper than going to court and defending themselves.

ummm you also dont seem to understand the legal system

I don't think you understand economic realities that corporations deal with and what they will do to mitigate them.
"

Since jackmeow's point was about a defense based on proving a negative and that is what I correctly refuted. Your point fails on its most basic level as YOU are criticizing a point I did not make.

THEN I post the following

umm no goatcheese, I was only pointing out that jakmeoff was stating a falsehood. never commented on the economic principle you discussed.

so once again you are wrong.

#137 | Posted by truthhurts at

Which is a BRILLIANT summation of how you are wrong and completely refuting your criticism of my post

then you attempt to claim the following:
you have no rebuttal to my post so it stands as unchallenged and you concede it to me.

SO now admit you are wrong, apologize and move on or I wll have to continue bitchslapping you.

umm no goatcheese, I was only pointing out that jakmeoff was stating a falsehood. never commented on the economic principle you discussed.

so once again you are wrong.

His point was clearly that it is cheaper to pay off someone whether than fight him in court. (he clearly states that) You moved the goalpost to something irrelevent about the defense not having to prove anything.

Therefore it is you who are wrong in jak's point -- but correct according to the new place you put the goalposts, which weren't anywhere near their original position.

You got busted. Be a big boy and deal with it even though the truth does hurt.

#140 | Posted by goatman

WHOA did you hear the squeal of tires as goatcheese backpedaled?

His point was clearly that it is cheaper to pay off someone whether than fight him in court. (he clearly states that) You moved the goalpost to something irrelevent about the defense not having to prove anything.

irrelevent? As in he posted it?

Just like bOoB -- the longer, rambling, multi screen posts brought on by desperation on your loss of face make you believe you are correct.

Oh well. At least your monicker fits. You are clearly butt hurt LOL

My point was NOT that corporations settle instead of fighting lawsuits. That is a no brainer.

My point was jackmeow did not understand the legal system because he asserted the defense must prove a negative, which is patently false

As evident by my statement

"ummm you also dont seem to understand the legal system.

The defendent doesnt have to prove anything. It is up to the plaintiff to prove his wells were impacted by the fracking. the defendent will attempt to refute the plaintiff's assertion."

I do not in any way comment on settlements as you seem to be arguing that I did.

Just like bOoB -- the longer, rambling, multi screen posts brought on by desperation on your loss of face make you believe you are correct.

Oh well. At least your monicker fits. You are clearly butt hurt LOL

#143 | Posted by goatman

Translation: I am wrong, please forgive me truthhurts

on your loss of face

then perhaps you could copy a post of mine where I comment on the issue of settlement as opposed to commenting on a defendent having to prove a negative. If I am so butt hurt that should be easy.

I am waiting.

Translation

Truthhurts moves from the highly intellectual and thought provoking "FTFY", to the acme of abstract thought: "Translation".

LOL

got nothing goatcheese?

I am waiting

got nothing goatcheese?

You got me, big boy. I can't compete against zingers like "FTFY" and "Translation". But I beg you, please don't drop the "mother's basement" bomb on me!

LOL

Truthhurts moves from the highly intellectual and thought provoking "FTFY", to the acme of abstract thought: "Translation".

LOL

#147 | Posted by goatman

TH:let's take a small trip down memory lane

You live the life.

I live my life.

FTFY

You live the life the party tells you to live. You admitted as such with your implication that you think weighing in on the candidates is silly.

Posted by goatman at 2011-11-20 01:58 PM

do yourself a favor goatcheese, say "I was wrong. I am sorry Truthhurts" and all will be forgiven.

First law when you have dug yourself a hole.

Stop Digging.

Um, TH -- try again. If you bothered to read, I focused that FTFY at myself. LOL At any rate, what is your point? I said something about myself to zed and that turns you into a genius with FTFY? LOL

Man, you are hurtin' bad!

Your turn, dude

on your loss of face

then perhaps you could copy a post of mine where I comment on the issue of settlement as opposed to commenting on a defendent having to prove a negative. If I am so butt hurt that should be easy.

I am waiting.

#146 | Posted by truthhurts

Still waiting goatcheese

obfuscation will gain you nothing.

say "I was wrong. I am sorry Truthhurts" and all will be forgiven.

If I lived for your faux forgiveness, I would utter that lie for you. If you ask me nicely, I might still tell you the lies you have to hear. I'll even tell you I am gay and fat. People seem to love those. But first you need to get over yourself. LOL

No more on this. It pisses rcade off and he'll put me in jail again.

Sorry to leave you so butt hurt, truthhurts. Last words are all yours, buddy. That's what a nice person I am.

as I expected you are not man enought to admit you were wrong.

"Because it's cheaper than fighting a protracted legal battle whose outcome is dependent upon you proving a negative.
#125 | Posted by Jak_Se_Mao"

No it doesn't. That's not how it works. The plaintiff has the burden of prove his case. If he doesn't the defense wins without even putting on a case.

By the way, defendants rarely settle a non-meritorious case to avoid the cost of defense. Because if they do, they will just be seen as an easy mark by unscrupulous lawyers who will then keep suing them. Of course, they claim to settle non-meritorious cases all the time, so dumbshits like Goatshart will shill for them.

"His point was clearly that it is cheaper to pay off someone whether than fight him in court."

And that makes no sense. Corporations just don't pay on baseless claims against them. That is a fantasy. Why? Because doing so encourages more baseless claims and because false claims harm their reputation.

The claim that American corporations just hand out money anytime someone files a bullshit claim isn't true.

Corporations just don't pay on baseless claims against them. That is a fantasy.

easy there.....they will do that at times.

know when to hold 'em
know when to fold 'em.....

you know, that sort of thing....

And that makes no sense. Corporations just don't pay on baseless claims against them.

According to my cousin (an Ivy League school grad who for four years has been on the top 100 lawyers in the state and two years ago, top 100 in the country) they will do that if the defense costs significantly more.

Sorry, sully. No offense, but unless you can top her credentials, I'll take her word, not yours.

The claim that American corporations just hand out money anytime someone files a bullshit claim isn't true.

This is true. But no one is making that claim, Mr. Hyperbole

According to my cousin...

#159 | Posted by goatman

Moder8's brother says your cousin is full of shit.

Moder8's brother says your cousin is full of shit.

Oh well. It doesn't change the facts.

(an Ivy League school grad who for four years has been on the top 100 lawyers in the state and two years ago, top 100 in the country

how can you believe an east coast elitist?

how can you believe an east coast elitist?

I've known her my whole life and know her to not be a liar. Also, the cases she and the legal teams she heads up has won (you have heard of many of them) and election to these top lawyer positions indicate she is knowledgable in her field.

"This is true. But no one is making that claim, Mr. Hyperbole"

There are dozens of these settlements. Mao is claiming every single one is baseless.

I'm surprised you've blundered into this thread considering last time we discussed you pretended not to know that fracking involves poisonous chems. You also claimed that these wells don't use millions of gallons of water individually, which is wrong too. You may be the only guy here who knows less about this than Mao.

how can you believe an east coast elitist?

I've known her my whole life and know her to not be a liar. Also, the cases she and the legal teams she heads up has won (you have heard of many of them) and election to these top lawyer positions indicate she is knowledgable in her field.

#164 | Posted by goatman at

dude its a joke, I am sure she is the only lawyer who doesnt lie.

You may be the only guy here who knows less about this than Mao.

And I'm fat, gay, scrub toilets on an oil rig, and make fries for a living too -- that is when I am not in my mother's basement. They all work for me, sully

dude its a joke, I am sure she is the only lawyer who doesnt lie.

Indeed. She has such a huge financial stake in telling me what she did about corporations settling frivolous lawsuits. LOL

"According to my cousin (an Ivy League school grad who for four years has been on the top 100 lawyers in the state and two years ago, top 100 in the country) they will do that if the defense costs significantly more."

Ask her what they would do if its likely that paying one baseless claim would lead to dozens of more baseless claims - which is the situation we are talking about here.

"They all work for me, sully"

Except my claims are based on my own experience in discussing this with you. If I really wanted to dig up the links, I could.

Ask her what they would do if its likely that paying one baseless claim would lead to dozens of more baseless claims - which is the situation we are talking about here.

I'll try to remember to ask her next time I see her. It probably won't be until next Thanksgiving though, so you'll have to remind me.

dude its a joke, I am sure she is the only lawyer who doesnt lie.

Indeed. She has such a huge financial stake in telling me what she did about corporations settling frivolous lawsuits. LOL

#168 | Posted by goatman

He we go again.

I was refering to this part of your previous post.

"I've known her my whole life and know her to not be a liar."

"I'll try to remember to ask her next time I see her. It probably won't be until next Thanksgiving though, so you'll have to remind me.
#171 | Posted by goatman"

Obviously, Sully is right about this. To say otherwise is simply ridiculous. But since Goatshart has the second most fragile ego in this entire loony bin, he won't admit his folly.

The reason there's been such a boom in fracking is because Congress exempted fracking from environmental regulation. www.scientificamerican.com

"In 2005 Congress -- at the behest of then Vice President Dick Cheney, a former CEO of gas driller Halliburton -- exempted fracking from regulation under the Safe Drinking Water Act."

Predictably, the lack of oversight led to incidents like this:
bayridgejournal.blogspot.com

"Residents of the northeastern Pennsylvania town of Dimock, who complained to the Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Protection when Cabot Oil and Gas contaminated 18 local water wells with methane, are settling their case -- after Cabot was found liable for the damage."

The methane contamination incidents in Dimock, in the heart of the Marcellus Shale, have made the town emblematic of the clean water battles being waged by outnumbered, outgunned little towns from southwestern New York State to western Virginia as a result of the so-called "Halliburton Loophole", the exception that takes fracking out from under federal regulators.

Beginning in August, 2008, shortly after Cabot began fracking their land, Dimock residents began complaining of exploding water wells and discolored, foul-smelling water.

In April 2010, Pennsylvania’s DEP fined Cabot $240,000, shut down several wells, and made the company provide clean drinking water to the owners of the contaminated wells."

Part of the "sell" when it comes to fracking is that the risks are low.

Well, that's now how risk analysis works.

Most people wouldn't play Russian Roulette with a standard revolver.
There's only a 1-in-6 chance the bullet is in the chamber, but if it is, you're dead.
Now, let's say the revolver has a thousand chambers. There's a much lower chance the bullet is in the chamber, but if it is, you're still dead.
The lesson is this: Lowering the chances of the bullet being in the chamber hasn't reduced the severity of the worst-case scenario.

That's the problem with fracking. No matter how unlikely an accident might be, it still has the potential to be quite catastrophic when it goes wrong. (See Also: Deepwater Horizon)

I will go on record as saying wars in the middle east are a better way to secure our energy needs than poisoning our own countryside.

"That's the problem with fracking. No matter how unlikely an accident might be, it still has the potential to be quite catastrophic when it goes wrong."

Its impossible to quantify the risks becuase the energy companies lie about them. They claim there has never been a problem.

The idea that you can trust people who will never admit a problem can occur to safely mitigate any risks is ridiculous.

That's why I don't get why the pro-fracking crowd is so willfully ignorant. Admit there are risks and show that you're taking them seriously.

Its impossible to quantify the risks becuase the energy companies lie about them. They claim there has never been a problem.

The idea that you can trust people who will never admit a problem can occur to safely mitigate any risks is ridiculous.

That's why I don't get why the pro-fracking crowd is so willfully ignorant. Admit there are risks and show that you're taking them seriously.

#176 | Posted by Sully

Me either.

And we have a perfect case history that verifies this concept to study and understand.

The People vs. Big Tobacco

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"

That's why I don't get why the pro-fracking crowd is so willfully ignorant

I see we've morphed into the projection phase.

There are dozens of these settlements

Companies settle cases all the time to avoid protracted legal battles.

That is just a fact.

its likely that paying one baseless claim would lead to dozens of more baseless claims

That may or may not be the case, but it doesn't change the fact that companies settle cases all the time to avoid protracted legal battles.

There are dozens of these settlements. Mao is claiming every single one is baseless.

A settlement can't be baseless, dumbass. It's just a settlement----and is accompanied by extensive language stating that said settlement is not an admission of guilt or wrongdoing

The plaintiff has the burden of prove his case.

Which is why there has never been a successful judgement against the evil fracking companies for the claims made against them---only settlements.

Its impossible to quantify the risks becuase the energy companies lie about them.

Being an ignorant little prick who throws the word "lie" around with nothing to back it up with doesn't help your case.

There is nothing mysterious about the process of hydraulic fracturing. There is nothing mysterious about principles and practices of hydrogeology.

The fact that you want, so badly, for fracking to suddenly become an environmental boogeyman is your problem.

Feel free to produce any scientific evidence that hydraulic fracturing contaminates anybody's groundwater. You've had almost 180 posts to do so, and have had the floor wiped with your sorry ass time after time.

Part of being an educated, well-rounded human being is the ability to challenge what you think you "know" when evidence (or the lack thereof)disproves it.

I can't stand fucking loudmouthed liars who impugn job-creating industries from a position of complete ignorance. It has become an all too disturbing trend.

It's just a settlement----and is accompanied by extensive language stating that said settlement is not an admission of guilt or wrongdoing
Don't forget the "confidentiality agreement" so neighbors and the press don't find out what's going on.

Which is why there has never been a successful judgement against the evil fracking companies for the claims made against them---only settlements.
They're so terrified of having their business practices revealed to the public that they settle.

Feel free to produce any scientific evidence that hydraulic fracturing contaminates anybody's groundwater
That was easy.

ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACTS COULD POSE FINANCIAL RISKS

In August 2010, the Pennsylvania DEP fined Atlas Resources over $97,000 "for allowing used hydraulic fracturing
fluids to overfill a wastewater pit and contaminate a high-quality watershed."

That's mismanagement of a surface wastewater pit, dumbass.

That's not inherent to the actual process of fracking.

Can you frack without hydraulic fracturing fluids?
No.
Thus, managing the required physical components is an inherent part of the actual process of fracking.

Can you operate a fracking site without men?

No.

Can men function without food at the well site?

No.

Thus, a traffic accident involving the food vendor truck that results in a diesel spill on the highway is an inherent part of the actual process of fracking.

Don't be an obfuscating stupid shit.

And just as a selfless gesture on my part to help make you a little less stupid than you are, the potential mismanagement of wastewater stored in surficial treatment basins isn't "inherent" to the fracking process. Rather, it is inherent to any industry that stores wastewater in surficial treatment basins.

(the potential mis)management of wastewater stored in surficial treatment basins isn't "inherent" to the fracking process.

Yes it is.

No...it's not.

Sorry.

In fact, most wastewater from the fracking process isn't stored in open basins but is routed to frac-tanks in a closed system.

Just shut the fuck up, bitch.

Don't pick fights you aren't equipped to win.

the potential mismanagement of wastewater stored in surficial treatment basins isn't "inherent" to the fracking process. Rather, it is inherent to any industry that stores wastewater in surficial treatment basins.

So it's inherent to some but not all fracking operations. Glad we cleared that up.

That part where it's inherent to some fracking operations goes a long was towards explaining why Pennsylvania fined Atlas Resources over $97,000 "for allowing used hydraulic fracturing fluids to overfill a wastewater pit and contaminate a high-quality watershed."

But according to Pinche, this has nothing to do with fracking.

And I suppose the fact that Marcellus Shale gas drillers committed 1,435 violations in 2.5 years in no way speak negatively about the industry's regard for safety, procedure, and being good neighbors.

In the last two and a half years, drilling companies were cited for 1,435 violations -- 952 of which were considered most likely to harm the environment, according to the report.

Land Trust spokeswoman Alana Richman said DEP provided a computer spreadsheet with information about each violation.

"We simply wanted to know what was going on with the drilling and put it out there as a statement of fact," Richman said.

Nearly half of the violations were related to improper erosion and sedimentation plans and improper construction of wastewater impoundments that contain fracking water. These impoundments were improperly lined or not structurally sound.

In one instance, the Department of Agriculture quarantined a Tioga County farmer's cattle because they could have ingested the frack water that leaked from the impoundment.

There were 155 citations for discharging industrial waste onto the ground or into commonwealth waters.

Nothing to do with fracking, though.
Completely unrelated to fracking.
Those discharges of industrial waste, they're totally a separate issue.
Right, Pinche?

So it's inherent to some but not all fracking operations

"Inherent" is something existing in something as permanent, essential, or characteristic.

The practice of storing wastewater in surficial pits isn't inherent to the fracking process. Wastewater stored and managed pits and the potential issues it creates isn't the point of contention. Nobody's arguing that surface activities cannot impact the soil or groundwater.

And I suppose the fact that Marcellus Shale gas drillers committed 1,435 violations in 2.5 years in no way speak negatively about the industry's regard for safety, procedure, and being good neighbors.

None of which are related to the actual fracking process and the bullshit notion that it's contaminating the groundwater table.

the bullshit notion that it's contaminating the groundwater table.

vs.

There were 155 citations for discharging industrial waste onto the ground or into commonwealth waters.

Both of these statements cannot be true.

Can they, Pinche?

You seem to have difficulty understanding is the substance of the argument you've taken upon yourself to advance.

Let me help you:

1.) The evil fracking companies are spraying billions of gallons of poison into the ground where the 99% get their water from wells.

2.) That's got to be bad, right?

3.) Nothing you can explain to me regarding the process, the geology, gravity. etc. can ever convince me otherwise.

There were 155 citations for discharging industrial waste onto the ground or into commonwealth waters.

That's mismanagement of a surface wastewater pit, dumbass.

That's not inherent to the actual process of fracking.

The point of contention is whether or not evil chemicals are migrating upwards through a mile of impermeable rock and destroying Bubba's well.

Spend as much time reading the thread as you've just invested creating strawman arguments.


Both of these statements cannot be true.

That depends on where you start and stop highlighting the text you wish to cut and paste, doesn't it?

Jackass.

Pinche ignores contamination by the fracking industry unless the contamination was pursuant to the "actual fracking process."

It's a convenient way to avoid the discussion of pollution.

Pinche defines fracking to be only a tiny part of the energy extraction process, conveniently ignoring anything and everything that happens on the surface.

That's mismanagement of a surface wastewater pit, dumbass.

Mismanagement... by whom?
Was it the fracking industry?

What was in the surface wastewater pit anwyay?
Was it "leftovers" from the fracking industry?

It's a convenient way to avoid the discussion of pollution.

LOL!

Well Snoofy, we can certainly have a "discussion of pollution".

But that's a tad bit broader topic than the thread above....

Whatever takes our attention away from a position you are incapable of defending, I guess....

Snooty had his tuck kicked in as usual.

What was in the surface wastewater pit anwyay?

Wastewater.

Was it "leftovers" from the fracking industry?

I can't imagine it would be anything else.

What's your point?

Pinche defines fracking to be only a tiny part of the energy extraction process

Pinche does....

Because that's what it is.

conveniently ignoring anything and everything that happens on the surface

That's because Pinche's not writing a book explaining the origins and vectors of contamination for every point-source of pollution known to man.

Read the thread, faggot.

Prepare yourself for the meeting before you contribute content.

I guess Snookie got tired.....

Was it "leftovers" from the fracking industry?

I can't imagine it would be anything else.

What's your point?

That the stuff used in fracking gets into the water.

Kinda the point of the whole thread, actually. "Fracking Polluted Aquifer."

"Non-Fracking-Related Fracking Fluid Runoff And Spill Polluted Aquifer" was too long of a title, and sort of danced around what's the source of the pollution.

The "stuff" used in anything has the potential to get into the water when improperly managed.

Kinda the point of the whole thread, actually. "Fracking Polluted Aquifer."

But the prevailing issue of the thread is that someone wanted to make the case that injecting a predominately water/sand mixture into a gas formation 1 to 2 miles beneath the surface of the earth is somehow contaminating perched aquifers a few feet below the ground surface.

Because neither you nor any of the other various shitstains were able to make a logical case that this was indeed a fact, we defaulted into other things.

And while that drives up the comment count of a given thread, it does little to change the fact that there is no proven scientific evidence that the fracking process is impacting groundwater supplies.

"...the prevailing issue of the thread is that someone wanted to make the case that injecting a predominately water/sand mixture..."

Well, the actual wording of that was:

"...synthetic chemicals such as glycols and alcohols "consistent with gas production and hydraulic-fracturing fluids..."

And the subsequent wording was:

...synthetic chemicals discovered in the aquifer are just as likely the result of contamination from their own sampling...

Exacty. No one knows. Hence the questions.

One "knows" something based on the evidence available to evaluate.

No one "knows" that those white, smokey trails left by airplanes cruising at 35,000 feet aren't actually spraying chemicals on us in some grand, bio-engineering experiment.

Hence, I have questions about it.

Now take me and my "questions" seriously.

"Now take me and my "questions" seriously."

Sorry, it doesn't work that way.

I know the sun will come up in the morning, but I have no documented evidence to prove that.

How about this idea. Do you think it is absolutely impossible for hydraulic fracturing mining processes to contaminate ground water?

I have no idea myself. I'm in mountaintop mining and we just blow them up and grind them down, so we're way above the water table.

I know the sun will come up in the morning, but I have no documented evidence to prove that

Take a picture.

That's "documented evidence" of the sun coming up.

How about this idea. Do you think it is absolutely impossible for hydraulic fracturing mining processes to contaminate ground water?

Nothing's impossible.

Do you think it is absolutely impossible for the Bilderberg Group and Koch Brothers to be conducting bio-engineering experiments upon us via chemicals released by high-flying aircraft?

Fingerprinting contaminants in a medium and tracing them back to a point source isn't a necessariy a complex and mysterious process.

There is no evidence that the fracking process contaminates groundwater.

Furthermore, there is no compelling reason to believe it does.

"Take a picture. That's "documented evidence" of the sun coming up."

Can't. Were talking about an event that hasn't happened yet.

"Nothing's impossible."

Another way of saying "it's possible".

....a predominately water/sand mixture...

Yeah, about that.

It's not about the water and sand per se it's more about the other chemicals being used in fracking that concerns people. In fact, to-date, 7 states, Colorado being the latest among them, have all taken "preemptive self-regulatory" steps towards make fracking concerns disclose what those chemicals are. Those steps are obviously being taken in order to proactively protect the industry from the federal regulations on this subject which they know are coming due to a considerable public concern on this issue.

Thing is even those laws being written in part by the industry itself don't tell us everything.

There has been a significant public outcry that aquifers can be contaminated by chemicals used in fracking, though the number of instances where this has occurred is small.

Energy firms use hydraulic fracturing to break open dense rocks and allow oil or gas to flow into wells. Millions of gallons of water, mixed with tons of sand and chemicals, are injected down a well into a rock formation until the rock fractures.

Colorado's new regulation, approved after being endorsed by energy companies and environmental activists, goes further than most in requiring drillers to disclose all the chemicals they use in frackingâ€"not just the chemicals considered potentially hazardous.

In the disclosures, to be made public online, both states must also identify the concentration of each chemical in the fracking fluid. Energy firms in Texas and Colorado will be able to withhold certain chemical names as trade secrets to protect proprietary formulas.

The Colorado rule requires companies to explain why they're invoking the trade-secret privilege and disclose the general chemical family, if not the specific name, of each component of fracking fluid.


online.wsj.com

So there's that.

Oh yeah, and the emissions thing.

UPDATED RESEARCH at Cornell University in New York has found that methane emissions from hydraulic fracturing (fracking) of shale gas deposits would contribute more to climate change than emissions from conventional natural gas and even coal.

The latest research by Prof Robert Howarth, director of Cornell's agriculture, energy and environment programme, shows that one well-pad fracking shale gas would emit more greenhouse gases than a community of 100,000 people in a year.


www.irishtimes.com

But other than that?

Yeah, great idear./snark>

Be Well.

/Yer really earning yer pay on this one, Maoser.

But the prevailing issue of the thread is that someone wanted to make the case that injecting a predominately water/sand mixture into a gas formation 1 to 2 miles beneath the surface of the earth is somehow contaminating perched aquifers a few feet below the ground surface.

Indeed, it "somehow" is contaminating drinking water.

And here's how, specifically: The fracking fluid comes back up to the surface, at which point it leaks, spills or is otherwise "improperly managed" and proceeds to contaminate groundwater.

There is no evidence that the fracking process contaminates groundwater.

And yet there is ample evidence that the fracking industry contaminates groundwater. Pinche is adamant that fracking fluid spills and leaks are unrelated to the fracking process. Which is nonsense, as the raison d'etre of the fracking fluid is the fracking process. Furthermore, the spills are happening while the fracking fluid is still under the management of the fracking industry.

Pinche is reminiscent of Janet Napolitano declaring "the system worked" because, while the terrorist got through screening an boarded the plane with a bomb, the bomb never exploded.

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