Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs
Friday, December 02, 2011

Religious believers distrust atheists more than they do members of other religious groups, gays or feminists, according to a University of British Columbia study. When asked what group a "freerider" who cheats and steals might belong to, participants were more likely to categorize the person as an atheist than a Christian, Jew, Muslim, gay, or feminist. Only rapists fared as poorly -- participants were about as likely to put the "freerider" in this group. "People did not significantly differentiate atheists from rapists," the study found.

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Hmm. The source article puts it differently:

Atheists, rapists top list of people religious believers distrust the most, UBC study finds

Religious believers distrust atheists more than they do members of other religious groups, gays or feminists, according to a new study by University of B.C. researchers.

The antipathy does not seem to run both ways, though. Atheists are indifferent to religious belief when it comes to deciding who is trustworthy.

Gervais was surprised that people harbour such strong feelings about a group that is hard to see or identify. He opines that religious believers are just more comfortable with other people who believe a deity with the power to reward and punish is watching them.

The Vancouver Sun

So they will all stop using electricity immediately.
Right?

"Religion is all bunk."
~Edison

LOL!

#1 - 60 character limit on the title homie.

I've never met an atheist that wasn't an ass. I'm not saying they all are. Just those I have known.
They push harder than the Phelps'.

I personally do not believe in the existence of atheists.

Michael Medved has atheists on his show for discussions.

They would probably like to be called humanists. And they did start with some religious foundation when younger and then grew away from their faith and God--for all kinds of reasons.

Yet they profess to hold the same values as those of religious beliefs--be kind --take care of your family, be honest, trustworthy, generous, integrity, etc. Well they got them from religion and just dropped God from the reasons to be a good person.

Not as fulfilling would be my guess.

Decent, conservative family values rapists everywhere are just pissing mad about this comparison!!

(kidding. just kidding)

It's got to be hard to realize that you're such a piece of shit as a person that you require an invisible daddy figure looking over your shoulder to judge you at all times to do the right thing, and someone else is simply doing it because doing the right thing is rewarding and feels good in and of itself.

Yet they profess to hold the same values as those of religious beliefs--be kind --take care of your family, be honest, trustworthy, generous, integrity, etc. Well they got them from religion and just dropped God from the reasons to be a good person.

Not as fulfilling would be my guess.

Well...and I mean this in the best way possible...you're not exactly known as the brightest bulb on the strand.

All of those values that religious nuts like to attribute to God just so happen to be values that endear one to their fellow man.

As social beings that's an important consideration.

I don't think of atheists as untrustworthy as rapists but in the same league of untrustyworthyness as Christians and other followers. And for the record I find fencesitters and agnostics the least trustworthy of all (I'm an independent thinking Deist)

(I'm an independent thinking Deist)
#10 | POSTED BY GIMME_A_SCOTCH

Get off your fucking high horse. Your beliefs are no better than anyone else.

It's got to be hard to realize that you're such a piece of shit as a person that you require an invisible daddy figure looking over your shoulder to judge you at all times to do the right thing, and someone else is simply doing it because doing the right thing is rewarding and feels good in and of itself.
#8 | POSTED BY ZEROPOINTNRG AT 2011-12-02 12:30 AM | REPLY | FLAG: extreme butt hurt over article, looking for his Preparation H

#12 | Posted by bartimus at 2011-12-02 02:48 AM | Reply | Flag:

Remember, as pragmatist seemed to infer on a previous occasion, almost all those posting with a "Z" name on the DR are trolls.

I think all this really shows is that the religious proponents (at least the "Christians") don't understand their religious teachings (that all men have equal propensity to conduct the most terrible acts).

The only reason they might feel atheists are especially untrustworthy might be that they think atheists delude themselves from the truth (in a sense similar to Romans 1 and 2) and are thus more prone to inconsistency... but many people have a habit of deluding themselves and being inconsistent. Again, all people have the same base propensity to conduct the most terrible acts.

atheists are way worse than lil john.

topdocumentaryfilms.com

The Thinking Atheist

religion is a meme.

Anyone that says atheists are less trustworthy than religious people are simply saying that they are more trustworthy than people different from themselves.

"Yet they profess to hold the same values as those of religious beliefs--be kind --take care of your family, be honest, trustworthy, generous, integrity, etc. Well they got them from religion and just dropped God from the reasons to be a good person."
To pretend that morality originated with religious is ridiculous and, like I said above, it's just more distrust of anyone different from themself.

religion is a meme.

#15 | Posted by webwrangler at 2011-12-02 07:54 AM | Reply | Flag:

If you were a thinking atheist you would realize that atheism would be a meme as well.

Your video is interesting, ill-informed and ignorant, but interesting.

#17 | POSTED BY EXPSREDEMPTION AT 2011-12-02 08:02 AM | REPLY | FLAG:
i don't know about atheism being a meme. but like most documentaries
you have to watch critically.
i'm watching this documentary now.
topdocumentaryfilms.com
World War II in Colour
great pictures.

Remember, as pragmatist seemed to infer on a previous occasion, almost all those posting with a "Z" name on the DR are trolls.
#13 | POSTED BY EXPSREDEMPTION AT 2011-12-02 07:42 AM | REPLY | FLAG:

Lol, by no means full time. I do seem to have hooked one with a cast made out of full snarkiness, however.

Zero point energy - en.wikipedia.org - swiped as a moniker both out of my love for and constant amazement at physics, as well as the fact that a little particle you can't seem to pin down or get the energy out of somewhat describes me - work full time, school full time, still find time for weight lifting, scuba diving, snowboarding, arguing with you people, driving my girlfriend crazy, and somehow causing my Dr. to ask if I had ever been tested for ADD within 10 minutes of meeting, since I wouldn't quit pacing.

#18 | Posted by webwrangler at 2011-12-02 08:15 AM | Reply | Flag:

Yes, it must be watched critically. It is also nice when the people who put documentaries together are able to think critically when trying to understand the subject that their documentary is addressing.

In this instance, it is base level understanding with an inability to accurately or thoroughly examine.

ill-informed and ignorant,

Too funny from an ignorance pusher.

To pretend that morality originated with religious is ridiculous and, like I said above, it's just more distrust of anyone different from themself.

#16 | Posted by danni at 2011-12-02 08:02 AM | Reply | Flag:

Wrong

"Christianity has functioned for the normative self-understanding of modernity as more than just a precursor or a catalyst. Egalitarian universalism, from which sprang the ideas of freedom and a social solidarity, of an autonomous conduct of life and emancipation, the individual morality of conscience, human rights, and democracy, is the direct heir to the Judaic ethic of justice and the Christian ethic of love. This legacy, substantially unchanged, has been the object of continual critical appropriation and reinterpretation. To this day, there is no alternative to it. And in light of current challenges of a postnational constellation, we continue to draw on the substance of this heritage. Everything else is just idle postmodern talk."

- Jurgen Habermas, Time of Transitions, ed. and trans. Ciaran Cronin and Max Pensky (Cambridge: Polity, 2006), 150-1.

"One of the things we were asked to look into was what accounted for the success, in fact, the pre-eminence of the West all over the world," he said. "We studied everything we could from the historical, political, economic, and cultural perspective. At first, we thought it was because you had more powerful guns than we had. Then we thought it was because you had the best political system. Next we focused on your economic system. But in the past twenty years, we have realized that the heart of your culture is your religion: Christianity. That is why the West has been so powerful. The Christian moral foundation of social and cultural life was what made possible the emergence of capitalism and then the successful transition to democratic politics. We don't have any doubt about this."

- David Aikman, Jesus in Beijing: How Christianity Is Transforming China and Changing the Global Balance of Power (Washington, DC: Regnery, 2003), 5

See also - The Victory of Reason: How Christianity Led to Freedom, Capitalism and Western Success (New York: Random House, 2005)

Max Stackhouse, A Christian Perspective on Human Rights, Society (January/February 2004)

Max L. Stackhouse and Stephen E. Healey “Religion and Human Rights: A Theological Apologetic, in J. Witte Jr and J. D. van der Vyer, eds., Religious Rights in Global Perspective (Dordrecht: Kluwer, 1996), 486. Mary Ann Glendon, The World Made New: Eleanor Roosevelt and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (New York: Random House, 2001).

ill-informed and ignorant,

Too funny from an ignorance pusher.

#21 | Posted by 2008 at 2011-12-02 09:06 AM | Reply | Flag:

You must be the ignorance pusher you are referring to in your retort.

"The Christian moral foundation of social and cultural life was what made possible the emergence of capitalism and then the successful transition to democratic politics."

I'll leave it to you to figure out for yourself how ridiculous this claim is.

#22 | Posted by ExpsRedemption at 2011-12-02 09:14 AM | Reply | Flag: FF!!

That has to be the most ridiculous pile of horse shit I've seen so far this morning.

Maybe this has something to do with it:

"Atheists Angry After PA Officials Refuse to Host "Holiday" Tree of Knowledge

WTF is a "holiday" tree? It's meaningless. There is no tradition of such a thing. This just seems like childish attention-seeking to me.

..." The county's refusal to allow the tree is creating angst among non-believers. "We just want our citizenship to be recognized and the community to understand our diversity," Downey explains." Source
.

Who is not recognizing them? They are citizens like anyone else. And everybody knows there are atheists who are part of America's "diversity"."

snorphty.blogspot.com

The author is an atheist by the way.

#24 | Posted by danni at 2011-12-02 09:17 AM | Reply | Flag:

I'll leave it to you to explain it, since it came from a CASS representative, someone far more knowledgeable than you. Oh, and the first blurb is from an avowed Atheist philosopher in Europe.

I know you don't like the facts... but they are still the facts.

Maybe you and Zatoichi can go and have a pity party, cats and all.

i can respect the culture most are brought up in.
but i don't have to believe.
www.youtube.com

"Michael Medved has atheists on his show for discussions.

They would probably like to be called humanists."

I'm an atheist. I don't view "atheist" as a group or religion and don't see the need to put a label on it as if it were. "Humanist" is meaningless to me....

Its the people who make atheism their whole identity and get all self righteous about it who are annoying. They bother me as much as they bother religious people.

But then again, to me such atheists are no different than people who are in your face regarding their religion.

"Michael Medved has atheists on his show for discussions.

They would probably like to be called humanists."

I'm an atheist. I don't view "atheist" as a group or religion and don't see the need to put a label on it as if it were. "Humanist" is meaningless to me....

Its the people who make atheism their whole identity and get all self righteous about it who are annoying. They bother me as much as they bother religious people.

But then again, to me such atheists are no different than people who are in your face regarding their religion.

"People are willing to hire an atheist for a job that is perceived as low trust, for instance as a waitress. But when hiring for a high-trust job like daycare worker, they were like, nope, not going to hire an atheist for that job."

This was funny to me since its proven that pedophiles will use religious organizations as a way of gaining access to kids.

This was funny to me since its proven that pedophiles will use religious organizations as a way of gaining access to kids.

#31 | Posted by Sully at 2011-12-02 10:33 AM | Reply | Flag:

This also makes me laugh. Another thing that makes me laugh is when some people make this statement and at the same time say "I just don't understand why some religious organizations have such strict hiring policies...".

Atheism as a Stealth Religion: The Series

by atheist David Sloane Wilson (who bemoans "the new atheism")

scienceblogs.com

scienceblogs.com

scienceblogs.com

scienceblogs.com

scienceblogs.com

scienceblogs.com

"This also makes me laugh. Another thing that makes me laugh is when some people make this statement and at the same time say "I just don't understand why some religious organizations have such strict hiring policies...". "

I don't think they have strict hiring policies at all. Alot of them scrounge for volunteers so they are not really "hiring" at all.

If acting religious makes someone seem trustworthy and above suspicion in the minds of some, then of course pedos are going to pretend to be religious.

"Atheism as a Stealth Religion: The Series

by atheist David Sloane Wilson (who bemoans "the new atheism")"

Its annoying as hell. When I see an atheist organization I think "Oh my God, they formed the equivalent of a 'church'! Why? The best part of being an atheist is not having to join some kind of support group for the purpose of affirming your beliefs. I'd rather hang around a church once a week than sit around at some atheist meeting..."

At least the rapist gets pleasure out of his crime. Atheists, at least the ones who foam and curse while posting here, seem to be miserable.

an atheist organization is like a club for anarchists.

"I'll leave it to you to explain it, since it came from a CASS representative, someone far more knowledgeable than you." Do you think the Chinese traded before Christ walked the Earth? Did the Greeks have a democracy? Even Native Americans conducted commerce between tribes long before Christ. It is the most self-serving point ever to pretend Christianity was the root of things like Capitalism or democracy. It is stupid beyone words.

"I'd rather hang around a church once a week than sit around at some atheist meeting..."
It would definitely depend on which church. Some aren't too bad while others are houses of hate.

Because obviously fear of God's punishment is the only reason people are ever nice to each other.

While written in jest, this is probably true. I became an atheist around 10-11 but I was never outwardly anti-theist until 2001 when my nievity was shattered and I noticed, maybe for the first time, just how destructive and hateful these creatures can be in defense of their god(s).

But I don't want to erase all religion, and I don't think it is even possible. It's best to keep these animals in their mind-forged cages or they'll kill us all. Without god watching them they're capable of anything.

Too bad Norway doesn't have more atheists:
www.thegatewaypundit.com
They might have fewer actual rapes.
Speaking of rape:
en.wikipedia.org

If christians think we're like rapist I guess I'll have to take their word for it. I've never met a rapist so I don't know what they're like. I'm sure they got their evidence during a stint in the nik. The prison population is overwhelmingly christian so they've likely bumped into a few rapists.

At least the rapist gets pleasure out of his crime.
#36 | Posted by Diablo
FLAG: speaks from experience.

=Its annoying as hell.

Isn't it though.

Not all atheists are created (lol) equally. Nor are theists.

There are fundie extremist theists and fundie extremist atheists who "know" their opinion is fact, and try to rub it in the face of those who don't share their unchallengeable "wisdom".

But most theists and most atheists appear to be moderate, reasonable types who are just making their best judgement on the currently unknowable.

-I've never met a rapist so I don't know what they're like.

I doubt many people in this poll have either, which poll appears to be just reflective of some negative connotation that atheism still has with some people.

If acting religious makes someone seem trustworthy and above suspicion in the minds of some, then of course pedos are going to pretend to be religious.

#34 | Posted by sully at 2011-12-02 10:47 AM | Reply | Flag:

Most churches I know have strict policies on who can volunteer etc. It deals a lot with membership in first order and then extra scrutiny from that point on as second order. Why? For the very reasons you mention.

Of course then many people outside complain about it quite extensively.

"I'll leave it to you to explain it, since it came from a CASS representative, someone far more knowledgeable than you." Do you think the Chinese traded before Christ walked the Earth? Did the Greeks have a democracy? Even Native Americans conducted commerce between tribes long before Christ. It is the most self-serving point ever to pretend Christianity was the root of things like Capitalism or democracy. It is stupid beyone words.

#38 | Posted by danni at 2011-12-02 10:56 AM | Reply | Flag:

You just proved that you have no concept of the context of the post. Read a little, then try hard to learn a little, then respond.

This is not about capitalism in an of itself, this is about a CASS member giving incite on why he sees America has been so successful in this regard.

I've never met an atheist that wasn't an ass.
#4 | Posted by KBM

.....a man is known by the company he keeps......

"But most theists and most atheists appear to be moderate, reasonable types who are just making their best judgement on the currently unknowable." Exactly. Some, like me, only claim to be agnostic because we admit we don't know and can't possibly know.

I personally do not believe in the existence of atheists.
#5 | Posted by MSgt

....but you believe in the existence of God......

......which would mean that your beliefs are consistent in their accuracy....

"Most churches I know have strict policies on who can volunteer etc. It deals a lot with membership in first order and then extra scrutiny from that point on as second order. Why? For the very reasons you mention."

I'm sure they do. But manipulative people have a pretty easy time acting like the type of person the church is looking for...

"Of course then many people outside complain about it quite extensively."

I'm not complaining. I merely stating a fact: Child molestors look for opportunities to build themselves up as trustworthy people and to gain access to kids. If being religious helps in this regard then they will pretend to be religious. A child molestor who is looking to gain the trust of a religious person is never going to tell them "I'm an atheist". They are going to claim to believe whatever the person they are trying to manipulate believes.

#33 | POSTED BY CORKY AT 2011-12-02 10:45 AM | REPLY | FLAG:
good read from what i got through will try to complete it later.

#49 | Posted by Sully at 2011-12-02 11:31 AM | Reply | Flag:

1. Didn't say you were complaining
2. Churches exert extra scrutiny exactly because they know your last paragraph is true.
3. You did just kind of state that a true believer in Christ would not say they were an atheist to rape kids, but a person who is an atheist pay pretend to be a believer in Christ in order to rape kids.

#40 | POSTED BY BLUSKY AT 2011-12-02 11:00 AM | REPLY | FLAG:

I went from being simply agnostic and truly neutral on the subject - since honestly, I cannot know - to more truly anti-theist myself several years ago while researching a paper on longevity and life extension (everything from resveratrol, rapamycin, and telomerase to the more far-out-there theorizing by Aubrey De Grey) and came across one Dr. Leon Kass, Bush's once chairman of the President's Council on Bioethics. What I came across was a modern luddite, arguing strongly against any research into extending or augmenting the modern human lifespan quite strongly from a base of Judeo-christian ideals. (His viewpoint on one such occasion presented here - a long read, I disagree with ALL of it - www.firstthings.com)

It made me realize that part of the reason we are not putting more emphasis into conquering/curing aging is because we have a sizable portion of society who already believe they are going to live forever - in some completely unprovable immaterial afterlife. And this group, for whatever reason, not only believe that they should die, but everyone else too. I don't know about them, but I love life, I enjoy the benefits of modern technology, and absolutely feel we should be pouring every available resource into improving both the quality and quantity of both. So to see people actively pushing pro-aging and death politics, anti-cloning, stem-cell, and any other such research, made me realize that religion could no longer merely be viewed as a bunch of quaint superstitions and morality tales that do no harm. Of course, a lot of religious people believe in charity, community, and many other very worthwhile ideals, but the essential tenet, that we somehow have an afterlife, where all wrongs and inequalities can be made right (in some ways, making them ok), where this life is less sacred because it is somehow not all you've got, this is directly harmful. Immoral, in and of itself.

That's my actual, non-troll reason for coming out so strongly against religion. It's essential concept can be used to justify death, dying, sickness, injustice, inequality, and so many other problems, by saying "that's ok, God will make it right in the next life." What God?

"Remember, as pragmatist seemed to infer on a previous occasion, almost all those posting with a "Z" name on the DR are trolls. "

Whoa, there, hoss. I remember no such thing. If you wanna say that, you better help a brother out with a link. : )

Atheists are all rapists themselves, right? I mean, it's what we do, right? We rape the helpless and plot to murder good churched-up conservatives. Those of us who don't do that have no moral compass because we don't have God (or a god) in our lives. It's obvious. (Almost as clear as my sarcasm?)

I personally do not believe in the existence of atheists.

It is arguable that atheists don't worship one less God; they just worship or at least recognize something else as a deity--in particular the universe.

It (the universe) is an all powerful (all the power in existence is in it), ordered, infinite, eternal and beyond our comprehension. It has consciousness and self awareness. (Are we not a part of the universe? Are we not conscious? Perhaps it has other more complex consciousnesses.) It is awe inspiring and sublime. Contemplation of the wonders and majesty of it bring many people joy.

If one wants, one could extend the metaphor.

Its scientists are its priests.
The scientific search for understanding of it are its rituals.
It's laboratories, its churches and temples.
It has "sacred" texts that seek to explain it in the form of theories and treatises.
It has a communion of "saints," esteemed scientists and thinkers of the past that it venerates.

(Just thinking out loud)

Cheers

"3. You did just kind of state that a true believer in Christ would not say they were an atheist to rape kids, but a person who is an atheist pay pretend to be a believer in Christ in order to rape kids. "

No I didn't. I said a molestor is going to say whatever you want to hear to gain your trust.

It is arguable that atheists don't worship one less God; they just worship or at least recognize something else as a deity--in particular the universe.
#54 | Posted by Grendel

.................or not.......

Sometimes things are just what they seem.

Let me fix that headline:

"AMONG SUPERSTITIOUS IDIOTS, atheists as popular as rapists."

Done.

re #11 you're lucky I don't have a ladder or I would climb down there and bitchslap you

#53 | Posted by pragmatist at 2011-12-02 01:10 PM | Reply | Flag:

Exchange is here.
www.drudge.com
www.drudge.com

The nature of the exchange is what lead me to use the words "seemed to infer". You didn't disagree.

Sometimes things are just what they seem.

#56 | Posted by skizziks at 2011-12-02 01:49 PM | Reply | Flag:

You mean to say that because the universe seems to be fine tuned... it IS fine tuned? I doubt you are saying that.

You mean to say that because the universe seems to be designed... it IS designed? I doubt you are saying that

You mean to say that because biology is increasingly intricate and seems to be designed... it IS designed? I doubt you are saying that.

#60 | Posted by Excrementretention at 2011-12-02 02:05 PM | Reply | Flag: seems to be full of bullshit

But it is mildly entertaining to drop by from time to time, point at the pathetically stupid moron, and laugh hysterically.

www.youtube.com

#55 | Posted by Sully at 2011-12-02 01:40 PM | Reply | Flag:

Relax, I am joking.

However, who would be more likely to lie in order to be able to rape children? A true believer and follower of Christ, or a person who is an atheist who has no intrinsic reason not to lie in order to rape children?

(Realize that the actions are not depended on the person being an atheist but rather that they are a person not held with particular aversion to lying about what they want. The fact that they are an atheist is a non-issue. It just goes to show that all people have the ability to conduct horrible acts).

#61 | Posted by Zatoichi at 2011-12-02 02:08 PM | Reply | Flag:

Your post makes no sense. So you don't doubt that is what skizziks is saying? I doubt that.

You doubt that the universe and biological life seems to be designed? That sounds like a personal problem. Many atheists who don't think it is designed at least admit that it does have the appearance of design.

Now please, tell us about Tektite II.

Your video is interesting, ill-informed and ignorant, but interesting.

#17 | Posted by ExpsRedemption

which part exactly? Be precise. And why is it "interesting"?

It is arguable that atheists don't worship one less God; they just worship...

And you could argue that atheists don't "worship" anything. Even if It is more powerful than them. They may marvel they may question they may seek a deeper understanding, they may even be spiritual. But, they do not have the need to blindly "worship" something. Perhaps it is a defect. But, perhaps it is also an evolutionary step forward too.

You doubt that the universe and biological life seems to be designed?

#64 | Posted by ExpsRedemption

That's your argument? "it SEEMS?"

To ancient people the sun SEEMED to orbit the earth.

Then SCIENCE discovered that earth orbits the sun.

You have no idea what you don't know until someone smarter than you figures it out.

You mean
You mean
You mean
#60 | Posted by ExpsRedemption

......no...........

....I mean that atheists really just believe in one less god than you do.....

Yet they profess to hold the same values as those of religious beliefs--be kind --take care of your family, be honest, trustworthy, generous, integrity, etc. Well they got them from religion and just dropped God from the reasons to be a good person.

Not as fulfilling would be my guess.

#6 | Posted by MURPHY

Do we really have to dredge up all of the sick twisted amoral shit that's in the bible....AGAIN?
People realized the value of working together and being kind to one another long before your twisted fairy tale became a "religion" and they'll continue to do so long after your religion is in the dustbin of history.

we have a sizable portion of society who already believe they are going to live forever - in some completely unprovable immaterial afterlife.

Ironically enough, these are the same ones who fight like hell to stay alive via evil science, when their time comes, or bemoan somebody getting killed by some evildoer. Christianity has martyrs too.

The distrust is understandable. Atheism basically tells religious nuts of all varieties that their entire view of life and the universe is a fraud and a scam.

And that scares them.

Because,they know they'll only find out the truth when they kick the bucket.

really not much here,
if you believe in a "god" or what have you,
you are the weak,

#66 | Posted by SpeakSoftly at 2011-12-02 02:24 PM | Reply | Flag:

I didn't say that my argument was that "it seems". Pay attention.

Also... when people refuse to actually consider the possibility that it IS designed... it is hard to confirm that it is. Scientism abounds in science ruled by strict naturalism.

Because,they know they'll only find out the truth when they kick the bucket.
#70 | Posted by northguy3

.....lucky for them they'll be too dead to feel embarrassed.....

#73 | Posted by skizziks at 2011-12-02 02:51 PM | Reply | Flag: actually thinks he knows something about the issue.

Because,they know they'll only find out the truth when they kick the bucket.

#70 | Posted by northguy3

They probably won't know then either. They'll be dead.

You doubt that the universe and biological life seems to be designed?
#64 | Posted by ExpsRedemption

You need to pay attention to what you write oh purveyor of hocus pocus.

consider the possibility that it IS designed

Baloney. When you want to rule out random chance in arriving at the life we have today, they you put your faith in the "fact" that it seems designed. Which is hooey.

Of course for the church to feed man's insatiable ego, ID makes perfect sense under the notion that we are sooooo special in the universe that God had to have created us. No random accident that led to creation can co-exist with our need to feel special and better than the rest of everything.

However, who would be more likely to lie in order to be able to rape children? A true believer and follower of Christ, or a person who is an atheist who has no intrinsic reason not to lie in order to rape children?

A Catholic Priest.

actually thinks he knows something about the issue.
#74 | Posted by eberly

........why thank you......I'm flattered........

actually thinks he knows something about the issue.

#74 | Posted by eberly

I suspect he knows as much about this issue as anyone else.

Of course for the church to feed man's insatiable ego,

really? I seem to be witnessing atheism feed man's insatiable ego to purpose to know something about life after death.

I suspect he knows as much about this issue as anyone else.

correct....nothing. But he thinks he knows more. Perhaps you do too.

I seem to be witnessing atheism feed man's insatiable ego to purpose to know something about life after death.
#79 | Posted by eberly

.....athiests know all there is to know about what comes after death......

which is what, exactly?

......just what it seems........

....you are dead and you stay dead.......

.....this is our only life, and when it's over.....it's over.....

I personally do not believe in the existence of atheists.

It is arguable that atheists don't worship one less God; they just worship or at least recognize something else as a deity--in particular the universe.

It (the universe) is an all powerful (all the power in existence is in it), ordered, infinite, eternal and beyond our comprehension. It has consciousness and self awareness. (Are we not a part of the universe? Are we not conscious? Perhaps it has other more complex consciousnesses.) It is awe inspiring and sublime. Contemplation of the wonders and majesty of it bring many people joy.

If one wants, one could extend the metaphor.

Its scientists are its priests.
The scientific search for understanding of it are its rituals.
It's laboratories, its churches and temples.
It has "sacred" texts that seek to explain it in the form of theories and treatises.
It has a communion of "saints," esteemed scientists and thinkers of the past that it venerates.

(Just thinking out loud)

Cheers

#54 | Posted by Grendel at 2011-12-02 01:24 PM | Reply | Flag:

The metaphor doesn't work for me. I worship nothing. I do have more confidence in provable science than I do in something that even its adherents term "faith." But even science is imperfect, of course.

I grow less and less confident in my beliefs, or even that which is called knowledge, as I get older. I am skeptical of just about everything. I question most mainstream thinking, although I admit sometimes I am lazy and accept what I read or am told because my life needs order. I question non-mainstream thinking as well, because any thinking is done by humans, none of whom know everything.

In fact, the one thing I feel sure of is that no one is really sure about the big questions. No one knows everything. Yeah, some of you act like you do, but you don't. Not really. No one living knows if God exists, if there is an afterlife, or what our purpose in life is. Deep down there is just that little pang of doubt, isn't there? That maybe you've been duped? To state otherwise is either ignorance, delusion or the height of arrogance. I do my best to respect deists but I also respect atheists and agnostics. People trying to find meaning in life -- and doing so in a way that respects others -- those are the people I respect.

I find most religion to be filled with hypocrites and phonies, and I'm appalled by the horrible things done on a daily basis by people who consider themselves doing "God's will." That is not to say atheists are incapable of evil.

If religion gives you comfort, go with it. But hey, I'm gonna be skeptical.

I think it was Ben Franklin who said, "Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see."

That's assuming the "famous quotations" lists are true.

.....athiests know all there is to know about what comes after death......

Only the Gnostic fundamentalist ones, who know because they know because they know, just like a fundamentalist theist.

Or, I guess you could scientifically prove your statement in a lab?

You still haven't used up the Earth's supply of these........ yet?

Conservation is the key!

....you are dead and you stay dead.......

so...you DO think you know something? interesting.

you could be right.....but it might not be that simple.

Or, I guess you could scientifically prove your statement in a lab?
#85 | Posted by Corky

......prove a negative ?.....prove that leprechauns don't exist ?.....

.......you know better than that.......

.....athiests know all there is to know about what comes after death......

#81 | Posted by skizziks

For me, being a non believing in a deity gives me the ability to simply say that I DON'T KNOW what happens after death. Although, just like believers, I have my opinion.

you could be right....
#86 | Posted by eberly

.....I've yet to be shown wrong.....

.....if you have any verifiable evidence of an after-life, then please present it, so we can examine it.......otherwise......

......we'll just have to accept that my conclusion is correct.....

......just what it seems........

....you are dead and you stay dead.......

.....this is our only life, and when it's over.....it's over.....

Those are positive statements. I'd just like to see the lab results. Thanks.

Or you could stfu because you have no special knowledge, Gnostic or scientific; you know no more about it than anyone else.

Only, like extremist rwing fundie theists, you still mistake your opinion for fact.

"The nature of the exchange is what lead me to use the words "seemed to infer". You didn't disagree."

Ah. I seemed to IMPLY, not INFER. (You inferred. : ) ) But point taken. I was, of course, just playing. Sort of amazing that you remembered that exchange. Maybe 'cause you don't get defended (if that's what I was doing) by lefties very often? : )

"leprechauns don't exist"

They don't?

Shit!

Now what am I going to do with all these little green suits?

.....I've yet to be shown wrong.....

one could assert anything about the afterlife and claim, "I've yet to be shown wrong".

we'll just have to accept that my conclusion is correct.....

wrong. and to assume you know anything about it, like you just did, illustrates an incredible about of arrogance and ego.

you're not a God, Skiz...you are just another atheist who who can't stand organized religion.

Those are positive statements. I'd just like to see the lab results. Thanks.
#90 | Posted by Corky

.....sure thing......just go to the nearest cemetery....and wait.....

.....take as long as you want with the verification experiment......

......but eventually you will conclude as I did....that the dead have an overwhelming tendency to stay dead.......

Ah, so. Cuz Skiz can tell what happens to consiousness after death by sitting next to graves?

So, no lab results? Not very scientific, really.

Skiz is just another fundie atheist, the kind in the series at #33.

you're not a God, Skiz...you are just another atheist who who can't stand organized religion.
#93 | Posted by eberly

......I agree completely.....I am not a god (I don't believe in gods anyways) .....I am just another atheist....and I abhor the damage religious ignorance causes on a daily basis......see Eb.....we can agree on some things.....

Ah, so. Cuz Skiz can tell what happens to consiousness after death by sitting next to graves?
#95 | Posted by Corky

.....evidently, the consciousness dies along with the body....worm food......

......it's happened to all the billions and billions who have already died.....and it will continue happening......

........I mean.....what did you think was going to happen when you died ??.....rivers of honey & wine with 72 virgins ??......please....

........I mean.....what did you think was going to happen when you died ??.....rivers of honey & wine with 72 virgins ??......please....

yeah, those guys are a bit off their rocker to purpose to know what happens after death, aren't they?

one could assert anything about the afterlife and claim, "I've yet to be shown wrong".
#93 | Posted by eberly

......not quite.......

.....if I say that there is no such thing, but you say that such a thing does exist.......

......then it would be incumbent on you to prove that there was some evidence for the existence of an afterlife.......

Same as the leprechauns, I say they don't exist because no one has provided evidence of their existence......if you say that they do exist, then you must provide some evidence of that, for your premise to take precidence over mine.

yeah, those guys are a bit off their rocker to purpose to know what happens after death, aren't they?
#98 | Posted by eberly

.....no more or less than any other after-life believers......

Ah. I seemed to IMPLY, not INFER. (You inferred. : ) ) But point taken. I was, of course, just playing. Sort of amazing that you remembered that exchange. Maybe 'cause you don't get defended (if that's what I was doing) by lefties very often? : )

#91 | Posted by pragmatist at 2011-12-02 03:18 PM | Reply | Flag:

I just remember most conversations.

#76 | Posted by 2008 at 2011-12-02 02:56 PM | Reply | Flag:

Interesting, misguided take. I think that things happen "accidentally" and by "chance" should be considered just as well. However in science it is presumed that everything results from naturalistic causes.

We might be here by accident, but then of course our need to feel important is just a delusion. We are no more important than the rock that was smashed to be mixed with the cement that was used to make your sidewalk.

Yet... I have a feeling you value your life and other humans lives more than that, and hold it against those that don't.

I wonder why that is.

if I say that there is no such thing, but you say that such a thing does exist.......

......then it would be incumbent on you to prove that there was some evidence for the existence of an afterlife.......

wrong assumptions there, skiz. you are assigning a position to me to wiggle out of this.

here...lemme help..

"if I say there is no such thing, but you say that nobody has any way of knowing.....

.....then it is incumbent on ME to prove how I know there is no such thing."

there...that's better.

it is this simple skiz...you and I are standing outside a very very very large and solid door. You think you know the room it goes to is empty....I have no idea what is on the other side.

one of us is purporting to know something the other doesn't about what is on the other side.

101--Given how much you post here (me too), that's pretty damned impressive. Must be all that clean livin' and godliness. ; )

then it is incumbent on ME to prove how I know there is no such thing."
#103 | Posted by eberly

......I have already answered this point.......

....and that is that there is no evidence for the existence of an after-life.....proving or disproving is done with evidence........

You think you know the room it goes to is empty....I have no idea what is on the other side.
#103 | Posted by eberly

.....false analogy......death is not a doorway to anything......

.......it is the cessation of life........

one of us is purporting to know something the other doesn't about what is on the other side.
#103 | Posted by eberly

......not at all.......because there is no other side.......and no one can provide evidence that there is.......

death is not a doorway to anything......

I don't think it is either......but I really don't know.

death is not a doorway to anything......

.......it is the cessation of life........

it is a transformation from life to death. the door represents the transformation.

Interesting, misguided take.
#102 | POSTED BY EXPSREDEMPTION AT 2011-12-02 03:48 PM | REPLY | FLAG:

Not misguided at all based on fact.

Prove otherwise.

it is a transformation from life to death. the door represents the transformation.
#109 | Posted by eberly

.......if you want to call the process of dying a 'transformation' instead of a cessation, then you are not technically wrong......but what do we transform into besides worm food ?.......

.......well......the only evidence we have is that we become worm food......so that is the only reasonable conclusion.......we can therefore know that after death, there is only continued death...

......whereas the all the happy hunting ground proponents are just engaging in groundless conjecture.......

God, A Poem

A nasty surprise in a sandwich,
A drawing-pin caught in your sock,
The limpest of shakes from a hand which
You'd thought would be firm as a rock,

A serious mistake in a nightie,
A grave disappointment all round
Is all that you'll get from th'Almighty,
Is all that you'll get underground.

Oh he said: 'If you lay off the crumpet
I'll see you alright in the end.
Just hang on until the last trumpet.
Have faith in me, chum-I'm your friend.'

But if you remind him, he'll tell you:
'I'm sorry, I must have been pissed-
Though your name rings a sort of a bell. You
Should have guessed that I do not exist.

'I didn't exist at Creation,
I didn't exist at the Flood,
And I won't be around for Salvation
To sort out the sheep from the cud-

'Or whatever the phrase is. The fact is
In soteriological terms
I'm a crude existential malpractice
And you are a diet of worms.

'You're a nasty surprise in a sandwich.
You're a drawing-pin caught in my sock.
You're the limpest of shakes from a hand which
I'd have thought would be firm as a rock,

'You're a serious mistake in a nightie,
You're a grave disappointment all round-
That's all you are, ' says th'Almighty,
'And that's all that you'll be underground.'

1983

James Fenton

To his Coy Mistress

by Andrew Marvell

Had we but world enough, and time,
This coyness, lady, were no crime.
We would sit down and think which way
To walk, and pass our long love's day;
Thou by the Indian Ganges' side
Shouldst rubies find; I by the tide
Of Humber would complain. I would
Love you ten years before the Flood;
And you should, if you please, refuse
Till the conversion of the Jews.
My vegetable love should grow
Vaster than empires, and more slow.
An hundred years should go to praise
Thine eyes, and on thy forehead gaze;
Two hundred to adore each breast,
But thirty thousand to the rest;
An age at least to every part,
And the last age should show your heart.
For, lady, you deserve this state,
Nor would I love at lower rate.

But at my back I always hear
Time's winged chariot hurrying near;
And yonder all before us lie
Deserts of vast eternity.
Thy beauty shall no more be found,
Nor, in thy marble vault, shall sound
My echoing song; then worms shall try
That long preserv'd virginity,
And your quaint honour turn to dust,
And into ashes all my lust.
The grave's a fine and private place,
But none I think do there embrace.

Now therefore, while the youthful hue
Sits on thy skin like morning dew,
And while thy willing soul transpires
At every pore with instant fires,
Now let us sport us while we may;
And now, like am'rous birds of prey,
Rather at once our time devour,
Than languish in his slow-chapp'd power.
Let us roll all our strength, and all
Our sweetness, up into one ball;
And tear our pleasures with rough strife
Thorough the iron gates of life.
Thus, though we cannot make our sun
Stand still, yet we will make him run.

Then SCIENCE discovered that earth orbits the sun.

Humans using logic and reason proposed the theory that was later proved to be true.

"Science" didn't actually do anything.

.......and now to close up this conversation on a nice note.......

........here is my take on dying..........

www.youtube.com

it is a transformation from life to death. the door represents the transformation.

#109 | Posted by eberly

ok...do we use the same door to enter Life when we are born? Is this like a revolving door? BTW- EXACTLY what do we transform from when we are born? Are we DEAD or nonexistent. How can we be DEAD if we were never ALIVE? It would follow logically then if we are non-existent before we are born and we go back out that door we return to nonexistence.

ok...do we use the same door to enter Life when we are born?

great question.

It would follow logically then if we are non-existent before we are born and we go back out that door we return to nonexistence.

when viewed from the physical world you live in....I suppose you are right.

but maybe that is a very limited and obstructed view of what we are talking about.

#115

cool Skiz...but it's ironic of sorts that you reference a song that focuses on a "room" but you don't think there is a door.

in any case...nice song.

#118 | Posted by eberly

.....thanks.....I wrote it...I'm the studly blue hair on the red base..

I had to go back and watch it again. Nice

The grave's a fine and private place,
But none I think do there embrace.

Anybody who quotes Marvell earns points in my book--not that it would matter to you.

Marvell as a metaphysical poet was not an atheist. The carpe diem theme of "To His Coy Mistress" is not a denial of an after life; rather, it implies that physical and romantic love are temporal--not eternal--thus enjoy it here and now for they are not matters of the soul and eternity.

While this poem is one his best known poem, my favorite is the "Dialogue Between Body and Soul"

Soul. O, WHO shall from this dungeon raise
A soul enslaved so many ways ?
With bolts of bones, that fettered stands
In feet, and manacled in hands . . .

Body. O, who shall me deliver whole,
From bonds of this tyrannic soul ?
Which, stretched upright, impales me . . .

.......thanks.......

I've never met an atheist that wasn't an ass. I'm not saying they all are. Just those I have known.
They push harder than the Phelps'.

#4 | Posted by KBM at 2011-12-01 11:03 PM | Reply | Flag:

YEAH!

It;s terrible the way all of those 'atheists' protest soldiers funerals with signs about gay people...Damn atheists.

p.s. You're relegated to 'DR assclown'.

Yet they profess to hold the same values as those of religious beliefs--be kind --take care of your family, be honest, trustworthy, generous, integrity, etc. Well they got them from religion and just dropped God from the reasons to be a good person.

Not as fulfilling would be my guess.

#6 | Posted by MURPHY at 2011-12-01 11:37 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag:

NONE of that stuff comes from religion, unless your parents felt it was some churchs job to raise you.

but maybe that is a very limited and obstructed view of what we are talking about.

#117 | Posted by eberly

and I can see you haven't bothered to think it through yet.

keep trying...

wow. soooo many DR posters are gonna go to hell.

It's got to be hard to realize that you're such a piece of shit as a person that you require an invisible daddy figure looking over your shoulder to judge you at all times to do the right thing, and someone else is simply doing it because doing the right thing is rewarding and feels good in and of itself.

#8 | Posted by zeropointnrg at 2011-12-02 12:30 AM

Read much of the bible? Your statement/question is addressed.

101--Given how much you post here (me too), that's pretty damned impressive. Must be all that clean livin' and godliness. ; )

#104 | Posted by pragmatist at 2011-12-02 03:51 PM | Reply | Flag:

Nah. Daily dose of Ginko

#113 | Posted by Zatoichi at 2011-12-02 04:49 PM | Reply | Flag: Epic Fail

#121 | Posted by Grendel at 2011-12-02 05:32 PM | Reply | Flag

128--So you lack godliness? : )

You need another herb to help with your spelling: ginkgo. : ) Oh, well, it's probably transliterated anyway. Heh.

I often forget what I had for dinner before I get to the next day.

Read much of the bible? Your statement/question is addressed.

#127 | POSTED BY WASHBOARD AT 2011-12-02 09:33 PM | REPLY | FLAG:

It was required reading in my home growing up every day for 14 years. On top of that, read it personally 6 times.

It's an interesting tale of a small tribal god, who begins as one of many, and "proves" his superiority to others - as his priests tell it, it course - before becoming the dominant totem of one nomadic pastoralist culture. "He" is then used at varying times as a political tool to justify genocide, slave ownership, homophobia, child sacrifice, (it wasn't just Isaac) xenophobia, and more difficult to name phobias that involve fear of shellfish and cotton/poly blends. Big fan of clothing tassels, too.

At one point in this entire narrative, which honestly is a fascinating read, given that it graphically illustrates the myths, values, cultures, and philosophies of it's long-dead authors, it tells the story of a philosopher who showed up about 2000 years ago and tried to sell people on a much more enlightened concept of loving one another and there being a spiritual component to life that is distinctly different from the physical, so making the laws of the earlier philosophy unnecessary but as guidelines. Seemed like a nice guy, at least took a stand against beating people to death with stones just for getting laid. Also disliked using religion as a capitalist means of bilking idiots from their money. In fact, it was his only recorded mention of violence.

From there, a great deal of text got written back and forth between various arguing philosophers, who couldn't agree on whether all mankind reaped the benefit of the Jesus guy getting offed as a political scapegoat, or whether you still had to show some works, as faith without works was viewed by some as dead. This was interspersed with other important notes on lifestyle, such as women needing to stay away from scissors and talking. Finally, 3-400 years later, some council in Nicea actually got around to proofreading the whole mess, and edited out a whole crapload that didn't agree with the rest.

About 1600 years later, a substantial portion of Americans still think that mass of pre-enlightenment bullshit is still applicable to life now, and somehow see a difference between faith and gullibility. Did I get it all?

Did I get it all?
#131 | Posted by zeropointnrg

........best summary ever............

#131 | POSTED BY ZEROPOINTNRG AT 2011-12-03 03:29 PM | REPLY | FLAG
good one.


It's got to be hard to realize that you're such a piece of shit as a person that you require an invisible daddy figure looking over your shoulder to judge you at all times to do the right thing, and someone else is simply doing it because doing the right thing is rewarding and feels good in and of itself.

#8 | Posted by zeropointnrg at 2011-12-02 12:30 AM | Reply | Flag:

So, what is the atheist's basis for determining what is "doing the right thing?"

So, what is the atheist's basis for determining what is "doing the right thing?"

#134 | Posted by MACV1972 at 2011

"People should just know", is popular.

"So, what is the atheist's basis for determining what is "doing the right thing?"

One of the most important parts of a parent's job is to teach their children right from wrong, so that their children will do the right thing when they grow up.

Apparently, some children never do grow up.

"People should just know", is popular."

Ignorantia juris non excusat or ignorantia legis neminem excusat.

#134

Are people really serious when they ask this question? This is where I question the morality of theists, who seem to require an exogenous reason to perform any altruistic act. There are other reasons, such as the one mentioned about parental upbringing, but the two that stand out most to me are society's ability to self-regulate, which is also exogenous, but certainly not supernatural (just means locking up or rehabilitating dangerous deviants) along with a purely endogenous reason which is that we evolved as social animals. Sure - no boogieman is going to get you if you're always a me-first selfish jerk. Fulfillment and long-term personal happiness probably won't either. Which is why I tend to still try and follow Buddhist principles for living my life.

Let me turn the question around - isn't it even harder to live a moral life and care about others when you think some supernatural being is just going to right all wrongs and make death a happy place anyway?

"People did not significantly differentiate atheists from rapists," the study found.
Depends on the atheist imo. (looks at Zatoichi)

On a side note, while atheists are often whiney, lonely mom's basement types on the internet, I've never known one in person that wasn't an upstanding individual. The only truly ugly people I've actually met IRL all professed to be Christian.

I'm not speaking from a bias either, since I consider myself a Christian. (I say that extremely liberally)

I'm not speaking from a bias either, since I consider myself a Christian. (I say that extremely liberally)

#140 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE

a Liberal Christian you say? As a Christian how much different for you is a Muslim from say a rapist or a terrorist?

"If you believe your behaviour is being watched [by God] you are going to be on your best behaviour," said Gervais. "But that wouldn't apply for an atheist. That would allow people to use religious belief as a signal for how trustworthy a person is."

This has to be the most ridiculous point of view I have ever heard. So what you mean to tell me is... that without YOUR imaginary friend YOU are not trustworthy or a good person. You would not be / are not capable of critical thinking or free will or just being a good person in general on your own without the sky fairy.

GROW UP. Sky fairy doesn't exist. You would be a muslim, hindu, taoist or something else if you were born somewhere else and your parents did not hand down their traditions to you. God should be a universal earthly theme, when, in fact, he is regional. Your Republican Christian God is the Western Hemisphere God. You are an idiot.

I remember being in Church when I was very young. I would say 9-12 years of age, and I would think- so If I god damn the holy spirit, I could never be forgiven and I would go to hell no matter what.... if I say or think GOD DAMN THE HOLY SPIRIT, I am a goner! What about the people in China? they do not know Jesus or accept him as their savior. A billion Chinese in Hell... they are gonna need a pretty big common area!!! what a load of crap! GIBBERISH!

snickers. I knew back then it was farfetched bulloney! he he he

Wow.. Lot of people misinterpreting the study. Here is a hint, its probably a bad idea to whine about how unreasonable, angry, poor company, or offensive atheists are, as a statement about how true the article is, when the article itself states, very clearly, that this is not the problem.

Here is some help, what the article ***actually*** says is:

"Even an atheist that was nice, kind, helped you across the street, gave you free money, and/or was the bestess person on the entire planet, would be trusted only slightly more than a known rapist."

This is the exact opposite of what some here are stating about their personal experiences with such people. What it says instead is that we are trusted almost as little as people that **are** trusted all the time, due to, just to be clear, how often date rape, and the like, are excused, ignored, or unreported. In fact, I would argue that the guy sitting next to you on the bus might be a rapist, and you would, ironically, trust him more, for not knowing that, than an atheist, based purely on the question, "Which church do you attend?" Why? Because no one asks, "Have you ever raped someone?", so all the myriad rapists out there have pretty much no fear of ever being distrusted. But, let someone admit they don't believe in god, and there are lots of people just waiting to prove themselves "more" untrustworthy, by a) slandering atheists in general, b) calling them all unpleasant (maybe you should consider why they might be that way towards you, probably for telling them they are damned, or something?), and c) because, as a group, they will, usually, tell you the truth about what they are, unlike rapists.

To me, this is a bit like saying, "I would much prefer to operated on by David Berkowitz (son of sam), than Gregory House." Why? Because the later one is an admitted asshole, while the former claimed to be a born again Christian? Is it any wonder the terms, "nuts", "insane", "crazy", or, "stupid" come up in certain conversations with the faithful, especially if they are trying to argue that the atheist must be an immoral, confused, god hater, who just hasn't been saved yet? I have seen less offensive statements start brawls. Why then, if atheists are so bad, unpleasant, and untrusted (only the last one even proven by the study), do you not hear them beating the stuffing out of everyone that ever pulls this argument?

#143 | POSTED BY KAGEHI AT 2011-12-05 12:07 PM | REPLY | FLAG:
good one

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