I am going to assume that the ows'ers with college degrees fall into this category.

Another display of your ignorance.

Where did you dig up that bullshit?

What will the world do without Art History degrees? Or Parks and Recreation degrees? Or Elizabethian Poetry degrees? Or sociology degrees?

#1 | POSTED BY 2008 AT 2011-11-28 10:23 AM | REPLY | FLAG: I believe everything I read as long as it fits into my view of the world.

DORK

I would argue that the word would be a sadder place without art history degrees (if that means people genuinely interested in art).

More to the point, an undergraduate degree is not the same as a training program, nor should it be. The vast majority of college grads I knew in the early 90s were in jobs not directly related (or not easily seen as related) to their major. And that wasn't a bad thing; it was generally a choice, or the major was not directly connected. What's the problem? People need to stop conflating education and training.

4--We need an irony flag. Rcade?

Glass, why not refute the stats offered?

What will the world do without Art History degrees? Or Parks and Recreation degrees? Or Elizabethian Poetry degrees? Or sociology degrees?

#3 | Posted by Lipzoidial

IGNORANTS RULZ!

Prag do your kids a favor and teach them to say "would you like Fries with that" This is Obamaville and MeDee's is the only one hiring.

I wanted to major in Women's Studies. Hell, I love studying women!

Then I talked to the department head and realized that she was a dyke.

What will the world do without Art History degrees?

Would you like fries in the Renaissance, sir?

Vermin's a terrific example of the ignoramus who can't help boasting about his ignorance.

#9,
Is convinced that every woman who rejects him is a dyke, and had to travel to Asia find a straight woman to buy.

American kids feel both entitled and pressured into getting a college education regardless of whether they have the intellectual capacity to profit from it, the work ethic to manage it, or the money to pay for it.

HAHAHAHAHAHA

Smells like someone who hates intelligence, knowledge and learning.

For me, our nation benefits from an educated class, but perhaps my education puts me in a minority.

Going to the moon served no purposed but the knowledge it took to accomplish has benefited mankind immeasurably.

So too, in its own way the knowledge of the arts.

I wanted to major in Women's Studies. Hell, I love studying women!

Then I talked to the department head and realized that she was a dyke.

#9 | Posted by vernon at 2011-11-28 10:48 AM | Reply | Flag:

She wasn't a lesbian until she met you.

#9,
Is convinced that every woman who rejects him is a dyke, and had to travel to Asia find a straight woman to buy.
#12 | Posted by oldwhiskeysour

Who says he bought a woman? Or a member of the tribe Homo sapiens sapiens, for that matter?

She wasn't a lesbian until she met you.

#14 | Posted by truthhurts at 2011-11-28 10:53 AM | Reply | Flag:

Perhaps she realized that she could not keep up. Liberals like you always take the easy path.

She wasn't a lesbian until she met you.

#14 | Posted by truthhurts at 2011-11-28 10:53 AM | Reply | Flag:

Perhaps she realized that she could not keep up. Liberals like you always take the easy path.

#16 | Posted by vernon at 2011-11-28 10:58 AM | Reply | Flag:

What color is the sky in your world?

I believe the spiraling cost of higher education will be a disaster for the humanities--and that is a very sad thing.

While I love philosophy, literature, art and history, I can understand why in the minds of many, they take a back seat in chosen majors when tuitions are in the tens of thousands for a single year if not a semester. With such great expense, a college education must be seen more and more as an investment not in an intellectual future but in the economic future and earning potential of the graduate--at the least to pay back the huge loans.

It will be a shame when the only ones pursuing them may be the extremely wealthy or the extremely poor who qualify for grants or scholarships. Beyond that it may be only at small state run colleges or community colleges that these programs may be cheap enough to gather students.

8--I don't teach my kids what to say. I encourage them to engage in thinking. That might not lead them to a great job, but it sure will help them become true citizens.
+++++

18--Good post. Sad, but probably true. Unfortunately, many people see arts and humanities not as back seat but as not belonging in the car at all. And that's just bad for society.

One of the smartest guys I ever met could talk Proust and literary history as easily and as well as he could talk philosophy as easily and as well as he could create code. These things are not mutually exclusive. I'm not a Bloomian cultural literacy guy, but well-rounded is good.

She wasn't a lesbian until she met you.

#14 | Posted by truthhurts

That happened to me twice!

One of the smartest guys I ever met could talk Proust and literary history as easily and as well as he could talk philosophy as easily and as well as he could create code. These things are not mutually exclusive. I'm not a Bloomian cultural literacy guy, but well-rounded is good.

#19 | Posted by pragmatist

I learned most of that stuff in high school. Good luck with that anymore.

You read Proust in HS? Really? Where were you, France? And philosophy? In a serious way? And coding? Yeah, I learned Basic in HS, but serious coding wasn't around yet.

We did The Prisoner in high school, but mainly was English lit. Some philosophy too.

But we should do something similar here too. We give students college money just because they're going to college. A degree in engineering or physics is a better student loan investment than one in Womyn's Studies. So why aren't interest rates higher, given the repayment risk? Why involve taxpayers in that equation at all?

I believe the spiraling cost of higher education will be a disaster for the humanities--and that is a very sad thing.
#18 | Posted by Grendel

Decades of government loan subsidies had the effect of creating more college graduates then the market could absorb, and raising tuition fees all across the board. Student debt is topping a trillion dollars. It's a bubble on the verge of popping.

Liberal arts has about a 500 year old legacy. It'll survive.

I believe the spiraling cost of higher education will be a disaster for the humanities--and that is a very sad thing.
#18 | Posted by Grendel

Decades of government loan subsidies had the effect of creating more college graduates then the market could absorb, and raising tuition fees all across the board. Student debt is topping a trillion dollars. It's a bubble on the verge of popping.

Liberal arts has about a 500 year old legacy. It'll survive.

Since when is GlassHouse envious of the Chinese?

They still have 40 million people living in caves! Cutting out "non-employable" degrees in higher education will only undermine their own culture - but that's kind of the point under communist regimes.

"Get rid of Sociology Majors! The Chinese did it and just take a look at them!" -- GlassHouse

College majors that do not produce high rates of employment two years post-graduation is not an issue in this country.

#25 | POSTED BY RAY

Not if people like GlassHouse - and the Communist Chinese - have their way.

What will the world do without Art History degrees? Or Parks and Recreation degrees? Or Elizabethian Poetry degrees? Or sociology degrees?

#3 | POSTED BY LIPZOIDIAL AT 2011-11-28 10:35 AM | REPLY | FLAG:

i have no objection to these degrees, provided we don't provide government loans/subsidies. loan defaults, kid in debt forever, nowhere degree. that's not a recipe for success.

College majors that do not produce high rates of employment two years post-graduation is not an issue in this country.

#26 | Posted by rstybeach11

Go to the nearest Starbucks, and ask the guys in the green aprons whether they majored in coffee brewing, or something else.

#28 | POSTED BY SOMOCO

Much like so many other things in government that you thankfully DON'T have control over.

You're a fool to believe every graduate of each of the majors you listed out has failed as a productive member of this society.

Lastly, you don't go to college for training - that's what vocational schools are for. It's called a "higher education" for a fucking reason - an education that goes beyond a single mode of thought.

You are a shrewd little runt of the right wing. Open your fucking eyes and stop following the extreme rhetoric of those hungry for power. Why are you people so damn bitter?

Who's the bitter one? Godalmighty.

"We did The Prisoner in high school, but mainly was English lit. Some philosophy too."

Okay, how old are you? : ) No, I'm not being age-ist. It's a serious question. I mean, we read some stuff in HS (25 years ago) that seems no longer workable in today's HS. I only heard of Proust once I got to college, though I still haven't read any of his work (Balzac, Dickens, Flaubert, Turgenev, Tolstoy, Dostoevski, Shakespeare, Faulkner, O'Connor yes, but no Proust). Philosophy in HS? Well, I remember that we read The Prince, but Aristotle, Nietzsche, the utilitarians, Marx, Kant, Herodotus... All those guys were college reading for me.

"But we should do something similar here too. We give students college money just because they're going to college. A degree in engineering or physics is a better student loan investment than one in Womyn's Studies. So why aren't interest rates higher, given the repayment risk? Why involve taxpayers in that equation at all?"

Give? Not so much. Loan--and that's an important distinction. I'm still paying some of my college loans. Yes, some people default, but more of us keep paying and paying. College studies simply cost too much. That rate of increase noted in the article matches my anecdote--my alma mater costs 250% of what it cost when I went there, and neither wages nor inflation have increased to that degree in the same period of time. But I don't think we should adjust how we fund college based on a person's stated interest, which often changes throughout the college career. Need is need. And lots of us who took loans become contributing members of society, no matter our course of study (often unrelated or seemingly unrelated even!).

#29 | POSTED BY RIGHTISRIGHT

If you want to base your perspective of the issue solely on your own anecdotal experiences at Starbucks, then I truly feel sorry for you. Although I don't frequent Starbucks, the few times that I have been there, the workers in green aprons looked like they were either in high school or fresh out of high school. The Starbucks by my college consisted of...wait for it...college kids.

I don't know anyone working at Starbucks with a degree from a higher ed. institution - but then again, I don't know anyone who works at Starbucks - but then again again, I don't base my perspective of the issue solely on my own anecdotal experiences; that would not be logical.

College studies cost so much because of government-subsidized loans. As long as the Department of Education and the banking industry stands willing to make loans available to cover every penny between when the student can afford to pay and what colleges charge for the privilege of going there, there is no need to keep a lid on prices. Simple economics.

An engineering degree from a top school should cost much more than, say, an education degree, or one in history. Ditto for medicine. But it doesn't work that way. The free market isn't allowed on campus, and so there's no reason for anyone to question why kids shell out $160,000 for a piece of paper that says they studied classical literature, when I could say the same by heading to the public library.

#32 | POSTED BY PRAGMATIST

It's sad to see people here actually believe the tax payer is on the hook for all of these graduates who are unable to find work 2 years post graduation.

If higher education was completely paid for by the tax payer and available to every citizen as a right - like in socialist countries - then I might understand all the outrage; the tax payer is paying for the citizens' higher education just like the tax payer is paying for the citizens' primary education (which his obviously how it works here).

But the distinction in loan versus social entitlement is completely being blurred here. Higher education loans backed by the government are not social entitlement - it's a fucking loan!

I don't base my perspective of the issue solely on my own anecdotal experiences; that would not be logical.

#33 | Posted by rstybeach11

* * * *

I don't either. But if you don't know kids who are still unemployed or way under-employed after finishing college more than two years ago, you need to get out more. Or, failing that, pick up a newspaper. Are actually admitting that you're ignorant on this point? That kids leaving college aren't getting the offers they used to, for the pay they used to get? That in record numbers they're going back to live with mom and dad? That they're struggling to pay off their gigantic student loans on the lousy jobs that they have to wind up taking? That many of the OWS demonstrators are demanding that the government forgive their student loan debts, for that very reason?

Is that it? You're just oblivious to the world around you?

i have no objection to these degrees, provided we don't provide government loans/subsidies. loan defaults, kid in debt forever, nowhere degree. that's not a recipe for success.

#28 | Posted by somoco

you do realize that you are talking a wide disparity of results and impact here?

Student loans are completely different from subsidies.

I for one think we should minimize loans but maximize subsidies. Our nation can only benefit from an educated populace.

Imagine what we could do if we took half of the defense budget and put it to college scholarships-more education, graduating students who are not in debt.

And certainly subsidize more for engineering and medicine than liberal arts, but still educate your populace.

You're a fool to believe every graduate of each of the majors you listed out has failed as a productive member of this society.
#30 | Posted by rstybeach11

If there is no market for their degrees, then they can't use their education to produce anything. The original idea of liberal arts education was to produce better citizens. That had the effect of bloating the size of government, the reason why the market can't create jobs.

In this environment, a person interested in liberal arts could learn on his own.

But the distinction in loan versus social entitlement is completely being blurred here. Higher education loans backed by the government are not social entitlement - it's a fucking loan!
#35 | Posted by rstybeach11

Not exactly. The loans came with government guarantees they would be paid. It also had the effect of driving the cost of interest below market. It's very similar to the housing market.

TruthHurts > Vernon = truth, justice, and the American way.

And let's not forget that many state colleges were subsidized by taxpayers. Those same colleges lowered their standards and had open enrollment. It all adds up to a glut of college graduates.

I for one think we should minimize loans but maximize subsidies. Our nation can only benefit from an educated populace.

* * * *

I'm not so sure about that anymore. In 1945, the average American had only an 8th-grade education. Yet those generations made it through the Great Depression, fought and won World War II on two fronts, ran the Berlin Airlift, and created the greatest economic behemoth in the history of mankind. Fast forward 50 years or so, and we've got more and more kids getting more and more degrees, yet nothing is working very well. Is it possible that the last thing we need is another few hundred thousand graduates of poetry or law?

This is a debate raging in my household right now. My son is a commercial fisherman who makes $65,000 a year at the age of 18. But his friends have been poking fun of him for never having gone to college, so he wants to register for weekend classes at the community college. It'll be years before any of his so-called friends are making the kind of money he is, and I told him that instead of studying English lit and sociology just because that's the core you're supposed to have, just take a few classes in bookkeeping or accounting, so you can be in a position to run your own boats some day. Wouldn't that be better? No can do, says the college. Can't do any of that until he has a couple of semesters under his belt studying nothing that helps him.

#34 | POSTED BY RIGHTISRIGHT

Some people turn a Classical Literature degree into a formidable career that contributes to society. Removing the opportunity for someone who has a talent and interest in Classical Literature to follow the career path of that person's choice sounds border line communist to me. If a private college wants to charge more for their different degrees, I think they should have every right to do so. But considering the public basis of state colleges, I don't believe there should be any changes to tuition fees based upon the discipline of interest.

What a lot of you people are not acknowledging is the fact that there are people who are mentally incapable of completing a degree such as engineering because the curriculum is not conducive with their abilities. Why would you force someone who has a talent for literary arts into a curriculum of math and science? That's simply not logical. Forcing that individual to pay more for their education at the same state university because of a lower mathematical ability is simply not American. Choice in education is a value here in the States - you want government to decide what young adults will study in college? Move to Europe - that's exactly what they do in the ladder years of high school - determine what the kids are good at and force them into the corresponding higher education curriculum. Using economics as the sole basis of determining the future of education will be the death of humanities at all levels. This is what you are suggesting?

#36 | POSTED BY RIGHTISRIGHT

Has a lot more to do with a struggling economy than it does "too many graduates with non-engineering degrees". In one way or another, the right will always try to find a way to blame liberals. This time blames is placed upon the "mythical" liberal institutions known as colleges.

#41 | POSTED BY RAY

So your answer to the problem, in short, is less college graduates? The Federal Student loan program is on the hook for $1 Trillion dollars. You telling me that the vast majority of those loans are going to default because so many of them are taken on by students with humanities degrees who will not make anything productive out of their lives? Where are you basing these assumptions? Why are you assuming recent graduates with engineering degrees are doing so much better in a country that is turning strictly into a service based economy?

My son is a commercial fisherman who makes $65,000 a year at the age of 18.
....
It'll be years before any of his so-called friends are making the kind of money he is

I call this the stripper syndrome. Basically, you can make pretty decent money at a young age with minimal skills so you don't see the need for school. This is not an issue if you love your job, plan ahead for your future career path, and don't get hurt, etc. The people that I know that took this path tended to spend their money too freely and had their careers end before they expected. Over 30+ years, they would have been much better off getting a degree in a useful field (assuming they have the mental makeup to be successful in a useful field)...not to mention wear and tear on their bodies which really does speak to quality of life after age 40.

In 1945, the average American had only an 8th-grade education. Yet those generations made it through the Great Depression, fought and won World War II on two fronts, ran the Berlin Airlift, and created the greatest economic behemoth in the history of mankind. Fast forward 50 years or so, and we've got more and more kids getting more and more degrees, yet nothing is working very well. Is it possible that the last thing we need is another few hundred thousand graduates of poetry or law?
#42 | POSTED BY RIGHTISRIGHT

No...what your ignoring is the shift from a manufacturing based economy (where an individual with an 8th grade education can provide quite well for a family) to a service based economy (where an individual with an 8th grade education would be lucky to keep himself above the poverty line). Is the institution of education to blame? Or is it the change of corporate and capital culture combined with the change in cultural ideologies in places like China and India that has allowed a purge of manufacturing jobs over seas?

Talk about alarmists. This generation may be different from the previous one, but they will not be less productive because of the education they received.

#45 | POSTED BY JACQUE_STRAP

Physical skill will only provide you for so long - your brain is much more durable in terms of use over time than your body. A person can only fill a physically stressing job for so long. A job requiring more mental than physical skill and experience (i.e. education) is much more suitable for a long lasting career. Literary arts degrees can be used in many different disciplines - teaching being one of them.

My question is what's the benefit of having a kid who makes $60,000 a year but doesn't know what to do with it? Maintaining that sort of income is more dependent upon knowledge than brute physical force - knowledge of finance and society.

4--We need an irony flag. Rcade?
Glass, why not refute the stats offered?

#6 | POSTED BY PRAGMATIST AT 2011-11-28 10:40 AM | REPLY | FLAG:

You are talking about asshouse here.

My question is what's the benefit of having a kid who makes $60,000 a year but doesn't know what to do with it? Maintaining that sort of income is more dependent upon knowledge than brute physical force - knowledge of finance and society.

#47 | POSTED BY RSTYBEACH11

Most of the people that I know that took that route ended up way overspending on monster trucks and ex-wives. Overall, I think they would have been better off in school and gaining maturity/perspective.

#49 | POSTED BY JACQUE_STRAP

Most of the people that I know who took the route described in #47 ended up going back to school - some twice (bachelors and masters) - later on in life because they were tired of their work's physical nature.

My dad was making good money as a trucker back in the 1980s, but he hated the back pain that resulted from it. Nice trips and vacations only go so far in relieving chronic back pain. He went back to school (masters and teaching credential) and became a school teacher - which he claims was the most rewarding decision of his life.

Anecdotal, I know - but that's what a lot of people seem to rely on here, so I shall provide to appease them.

So your answer to the problem, in short, is less college graduates?

That's what the job market is saying.

The Federal Student loan program is on the hook for $1 Trillion dollars. You telling me that the vast majority of those loans are going to default because so many of them are taken on by students with humanities degrees who will not make anything productive out of their lives?

At least not in the liberal arts field.

Where are you basing these assumptions? Why are you assuming recent graduates with engineering degrees are doing so much better in a country that is turning strictly into a service based economy?
#44 | Posted by rstybeach11

I only reflecting what I see in surveys, most published by government. I'm in engineering and I've seen that job market shrink too. The tragic fact that the job market is shrinking everywhere. The service economy is another accident waiting to happend. Government jobs too. This economy is carrying impossible levels of debt. Until it is reconciled, the future of the American economy is very bleak.

#51 | POSTED BY RAY

I agree with everything in the last paragraph of your post. But it all has to do with the world's acceptance, utilization, nature and abuse of capitalism. The great wonderful society brought forth from the ashes of the great depression - save any flaming phoenixes - did so in a world still wary of capitalism - and foreign governments wary of democracy. Global cultural changes in the 1950s-1980s set in motion an inevitable decline for the country in which capitalism originated, but was destined to dominate only for a short period. It is now the time of countries who can provide massive amounts of labor for cheap. The next shift will involve the country that is capable of implementing massive amounts of automation. Which ever produces the most the cheapest will prosper. That definition does not fit current U.S. economic model - nor does it show to fit future economic models, barring significant technological advancements.

For a time, cotton industry was dominated by those who had the most, strongest, and cheapest physical labor. Than the cotton gin changed everything. The dominator of automation will ultimately dominate the global capitalist market.

I agree with everything in the last paragraph of your post. But it all has to do with the world's acceptance, utilization, nature and abuse of capitalism.
#52 | Posted by rstybeach11

With emphasis on abuse. No society can thrive where corruption is out of control, where one can no longer trust institutions with the safe handling of money, where money is created whimsically out of nothing to pay for debts, where the government we want to trust to protect us and our property is the greatest threat to our person and property. I'm old enough to whitness 50 years of decline.

You are a shrewd little runt of the right wing. Open your fucking eyes and stop following the extreme rhetoric of those hungry for power. Why are you people so damn bitter?

#30 | POSTED BY RSTYBEACH11 AT 2011-11-28 03:31 PM | REPLY | FLAG

Not bitter at all. If you want to pursue a career that is relatively unproductive monetarily, then you shouldn't expect it to be subsidized by taxpayers. That is not a hard concept Rsty. An underwater basketweaver isn't going to pay back their student loan... So, they should pay for it themselves. They shouldn't get rid of the major, of course; however, is it useful for us to pay for it?

is it useful for us to pay for it?
POSTED BY SOMOCO

You're not paying for it. It's a loan that is paid back by the student. If the student defaults, it screws his ability to further benefit from capitalism (i.e. credit). Tax payer picks up the default. How many are out there with the majors being denigrated on this thread? Far fewer than you might imagine and are asserting here. Majority of defaults come from for-profit colleges that provide poor education and charge ridiculous tuition.

#54 | POSTED BY SOMOCO
As a tax payer, why aren't you angry about tax payers going after veterans?:

It costs taxpayers twice as much to send a veteran to a for-profit school than to a public university: $10,900 compared with $4,900.

#54 | POSTED BY SOMOCO

Sorry, not "tax payers going after veterans". Meant to read "for-profit colleges (companies) going after veterans).

#55 I don't disagree that a whole bunch of defaults are from for-profits. little shitbag institutions with shitty students who won't amount to a level-2 ditch digger. stop all that shit too.

we do pay for it with the defaults dumbass. that's the point. why let a kid spend $80K for a career that won't support the repayment?

there are a whole shitload of majors that would be on the list: music, art history, dance, communications, religion, sports therapy, home economics... etc........

Liberal arts has about a 500 year old legacy. It'll survive.

The liberal arts of the trivium and the quadrivium of the Ancient world was kept alive in the monasteries, cathedral schools and universities of the Middle Ages and into the Renaissance. It has been around for more than 2000 years; I agree it will survive.

There is such a thing as credential inflation; a college education is a great thing, but it is not needed for every job in the world. In my state one has to have a college degree in biology or wildlife management in order to be a park ranger. College degrees are deemed necessary for firefighters, police officers. Entry level business jobs want them too--a generation ago this wasn't necessary.

Now that it is, everyone needs to go to college just to enter the workforce for any job beyond skilled laborer; thus creating an economic burden on government loans and personal finances.

"everyone needs to go to college just to enter the workforce for any job beyond skilled laborer"

Everyone?
Really?

I went to college to get the hell out of Waco and hang around with smart people, and they're scurrying about still, but I think the most interesting genius of my lifetime (purposely limiting the field to similar folk) is Bill Lear.
My real career was with the company he and Paul Galvin started.
That check still clears every month.
Bill's aviation/education counterweight was Jimmy Doolittle.

It's all there in textbooks.
Read and understand.
No one is stopping you.

Otherwise you really need to be used for fertilizer or clearing mine fields.

I'm horrified at the pure emphasis on marketability evidenced by so many here.

"I'm horrified at the pure emphasis on marketability evidenced by so many here."

Welcome to the club.

It's all there in textbooks.
Read and understand.
No one is stopping you.

Otherwise you really need to be used for fertilizer or clearing mine fields

While Socrates would agree that the unexamined life is not worth living, he also suggests that the bedrock of a liberal arts education is humility--in coming to grips with his paradoxical realization that he was wiser than everyone else because he understood his own ignorance.

A true education is a humbling experience. Are you truly educated, Zat?

#63 | POSTED BY GRENDEL

I think there are very few here who are capable of calling themselves humble - after witnessing some of the most egregious bloviating and pontificating as of late.

I once had an argument with a friend in which I contended that I was the most uncompetitive person she'd ever met.

How Steven Wrightish!

While Socrates would agree that the unexamined life is not worth living, he also suggests that the bedrock of a liberal arts education is humility--in coming to grips with his paradoxical realization that he was wiser than everyone else because he understood his own ignorance.
...
#63 | Posted by Grendel

Well said, Grendel.

Student loans are paid back when there's a healthy job market for college graduates to go into. This is true even for degrees that don't lend themselves to jobs, because a lot of people go into careers that aren't directly linked to their majors.

The biggest problem in higher education is that colleges are raising tuition and other fees like crazy, even during an economic downturn when they should be cutting them. The student loan program appears to have contributed to rising costs, because schools know the loans are guaranteed by the government.

If the U.S. capped what it was willing to guarantee on student loans, tuition costs would drop.

"I'm old enough to whitness 50 years of decline."

But not intelligent enough to know that corruption, etc. was not invented during your lifetime. It has always been there, society can and does operate concurrently with corruption, it always has, always will. The sky is not falling you just think it is because you are so egocentric that you actually think the ideas you consider are original or that previous generations haven't considered the exact same things yet come to more postive conclusions. There will be future, and it will be one that you cannot predict or even imagine no matter how intelligent you think cynicism makes you appear.

Markets are just as abstract as philosophy.

Everyone knows we only need industrial robots. There is no other reason to form a society or live.

I'm sure 60% of acting school graduates have no work in acting. So lets close all acting schools.

Another reason the U.S. will be passed. Asians dont need lit degrees because they already have culture. They dont need a college professor telling them about culture.

"Asians dont need lit degrees because they already have culture. They dont need a college professor telling them about culture."

Try signing up for some more liberal arts courses while Uncle Sam's still punching your ticket. You've got a lot to learn.

"The biggest problem in higher education is that colleges are raising tuition and other fees like crazy, even during an economic downturn when they should be cutting them."

State-supported universities have seen a continuing decline in the share of costs actually picked up by the states which supposedly sponsor them and which those institutions serve. So where to find the funds to make up the shortfall?

Then again...

"I want a university the football team can be proud of."
George Lynn Cross
President, University of Oklahoma (1953-1957)

State-supported universities have seen a continuing decline in the share of costs actually picked up by the states which supposedly sponsor them and which those institutions serve. So where to find the funds to make up the shortfall?

* * * *

That isn't it. Costs are rising at public colleges right alongside those of private ones. No, colleges don't have to rein in costs. Ever. The student loan program sees to that.

So the college cost bubble inflates ever higher, without regard to economic fundamentals at all.

"Costs are rising at public colleges right alongside those of private ones."

Football coaches are expensive.

William M Brown Head Coach Intercollegiate Athlet $2,511,667 2010
William C Powers President Governmental Relations $511,491 2010
Thomas W Gilligan Dean Business School $487,500 2010
Gregory L Davis Asst Coach Intercollegiate Athlet $427,075 2010
Steven Weinberg Professor Natural Sciences $391,791 2010

"No, colleges don't have to rein in costs. Ever."

You obviously know nothing about the subject. There have been all sorts of cutbacks at many schools, ranging from salary freezes to freezes on replacement hires and on and on.

"Football coaches are expensive."

And how.

Ask the suckers who're talking about ponying up $6M to get the University of Kansas coach to take a hike.

But not intelligent enough to know that corruption, etc. was not invented during your lifetime. It has always been there, society can and does operate concurrently with corruption, it always has, always will. The sky is not falling you just think it is because you are so egocentric that you actually think the ideas you consider are original or that previous generations haven't considered the exact same things yet come to more postive conclusions. There will be future, and it will be one that you cannot predict or even imagine no matter how intelligent you think cynicism makes you appear.

#69 | Posted by danni at 2011-11-29 08:42 AM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

You're right, corruption always has and always will exist.

"Lets give the government more money and power and make sure they take care of our healthcare while they're at it."

Danni (Can't put two thoughts together)

At what point are we turning universities into trade schools?

The biggest problem in higher education is that colleges are raising tuition and other fees like crazy, even during an economic downturn when they should be cutting them. The student loan program appears to have contributed to rising costs, because schools know the loans are guaranteed by the government.

Kaboom...the coming to Jesus moment.

Means test for loans. End government backed loans. Then if you want to take the risk of higher interest rates for your liberal arts degree, knock yourself out.

If people want to take the road to higher education the first step they should make is thinking long and hard about why they are signing their life away under the yoke of student loans, instead of lining up for their government check, and thinking about "what they are going to do" later.

People here love to talk about how wonderful it is in foreign countries that everyone can go to school...except you are means tested from day one, and if you are a shit student, you don't go to college.

End government backed loans.

I was able to attend college because of those loans and paid them off in full with the education I got. The student loan program is great. It just needs to be fixed to discourage colleges from making tuition ridiculous.

Salary freezes? Right.

Probably news to you guys in the Ivory Tower, but hiring and salary freezes don't cut costs. Costs are cut with layoffs and pay cuts. There's a depression in private sector America, but not for you.

But it's coming. Hope you're ready.

It's also no small source of amusement that Doc is a full time tenured prof who manages to squeeze two classes a week around what appears to be about sixty hours a week of daytime blogging. Look for that kinda thing to be ending too.

#82 | Posted by iraqibukkake

Dead on. If you do not prove yourself in high school there is no college, though the structure is a bit different.

And even if you are allowed to go, you may not go for what you want unless approved by the gov.

Even as annoying as the OWS'ers are I would still have it our way; free to make choices, free to succeed, free to fail.

The college industry has arrived at the same point that most industries have reached. They are no longer about creating products that people need, they are about convincing people that they are necessary and useful when they are not.

Scratch the Masters in Fine Arts with an emphasis in puppetry...LOL

Earlier this month, the left-wing magazine the Nation highlighted Joe Therrien as a symbol of the Occupy Wall Street movement. A New York City public school drama teacher, Therrien was frustrated with the shortcomings of the school system. So he quit his job and "set off to the University of Connecticut to get an MFA in his passion â€" puppetry." Three years and $35,000 in student loan debt later, Therrien returned home, only to find he couldn't land a full-time job. Apparently, a master's in puppetry doesn't provide the competitive edge in the marketplace he'd hoped for.

"Apparently, a master's in puppetry doesn't provide the competitive edge in the marketplace he'd hoped for."

Maybe that's not what he hoped for. Maybe he wanted to pursue a passion, and he saw this as the best way to do it. We can think that's silly, and I sure think taking out loans to do it was ridiculous, but I wouldn't make that assumption or use this evidence to leap to larger conclusions.

I know a woman who, five years ago maybe, left a lucrative gig as an urban planner to pursue a music degree. She is kicking herself now. But I don't make deeper conclusions over it. I'm sure it's happening, but the bigger issue is probably the kids entering college now and not thinking about what loans will do to them... That's serious and much more widespread than these two examples. 1. We don't make the dangers of loans clear enough. 2. Kids entering college generally (or very often) simply aren't equipped to think that far ahead.

Just remember Anne Hathaway's fiance has a degree in theater, and he is getting married to a wealthy Hollywood actress.

If Prag refuses to make a deeper connection, allow me. If someone wants to pursue her passion, let her go ahead no problem. But when the taxpayers underwrite said pursuit, we have a right to ask why we're doing so, and whether the investment makes sense.

I'm horrified at the pure emphasis on marketability evidenced by so many here.

#61 | Posted by pragmatist

When it costs well over $100,000 to get a degree, marketability better be a large part of the equation.

I have 3 people in their 20s in my sphere who just graduated from college.

1- Phsycology - Currently going to grad school, cuz you need a Masters, or Dr. to get real work

2- Forensic Anthropology - Working at a day care earning minimum wage.

3- Hispanic Studies - could not find a job, went back to getting Gov. grants to continue going to school (ie profesional student)

Each spent close to $100,000 to get that education.

"If Prag refuses to make a deeper connection, allow me. If someone wants to pursue her passion, let her go ahead no problem. But when the taxpayers underwrite said pursuit, we have a right to ask why we're doing so, and whether the investment makes sense."

What's the percentage of defaults on student loans? What's the cost-benefit analysis?

RiR, I'm still paying off my loans (many for going back to become a teacher). I know some others my age who are, too. I know no one personally who defaulted on his/her student loan.

If there's a huge percentage, I see your point.

And you missed an important point of mine. Allow me to repeat:

" ... the bigger issue is probably the kids entering college now and not thinking about what loans will do to them... That's serious and much more widespread than these two examples. 1. We don't make the dangers of loans clear enough. 2. Kids entering college generally (or very often) simply aren't equipped to think that far ahead."

A quick glance at Google tells me that if you discount for-profit institutions (for which we probably should not back student loans), the number is pretty small: 4-8% or something. (I looked very quickly.) The rate among those graduating from for-profit institutions is something like 11-14%. That's high. And some here talked about colleges selling kids a bill of goods. That's more true at these institutions.

92--College costs are too high, no doubt. But education is not training. That should not be the primary purpose of college.

The psych student, btw, should have planned for that. Or taken his/her degree and gone to work in publishing or some other white-collar industry that just wants a college graduate.

The FA student? Is that a function of a bad degree or of a saturated market? (Where does one go with that degree, assuming it's tied to a specific kind of gig, as psych can be. Is this degree more popular because of the TV show Bones? : ) )

Hispanic Studies? See note about psych student.

You can have marketability be part of your equation, but lots of businesses just want college graduates 'cause they believe it says something about the applicant (follow-through, intellect, commitment, whatever). Those particular folks don't care what the degree is in.

I told him that instead of studying English lit and sociology just because that's the core you're supposed to have, just take a few classes in bookkeeping or accounting, so you can be in a position to run your own boats some day. Wouldn't that be better? No can do, says the college. Can't do any of that until he has a couple of semesters under his belt studying nothing that helps him.

#42 | Posted by rightisright at 2011-11-28 03:57 PM | Reply | Flag

The study of human behavior won't help him? How ignorant!!!

How to read about society and it past political upevils won't help him? How ignorant.

The core of those supposed outer bound degrees always come to the benefits of the whole.

In fact, embracing diversity is a core of most successful corporations and it is most successful in educational diversity.

Only 1/3 of our population finishes 4 year degrees. 1/3....

look at this debt issue and attribute it with 1/3 of the population and the cost of an education is barbarically too high.

The universities are making so much money that they have the ability to tell respective customers to go fuck themselves and no one seems to think there is a monopoly here.

I didn't go to college after my stint in the military to become simply a bigger cog in some fat cat's money machine. An officer I served with noticed I was always reading books that he rarely saw enlisted men reading and after learning I went to a Catholic high school, quietly began recommending selections for me to read, adding authors far beyond my current intellectual pay-grade at the time, which planted the seed in me the knowledge that the world around me was a richer and far more diverse place than I had been raised to believe even existed. I went to college to become more well-rounded--not to make more money.

The first book he gave to me was Roget's Thesaurus, which I quickly discovered was the keys to the kingdom. I paid my loans off, by the way. Every penny.

You can have marketability be part of your equation, but lots of businesses just want college graduates 'cause they believe it says something about the applicant (follow-through, intellect, commitment, whatever).

It isn't 1970 anymore. Everyone is "supposed" to go to college. If marketability isn't the number one factor in your equation these days, you're doing it wrong.

Personal enrichment and uplifting of society sounds wonderfully romantic, but when that first 500 dollar loan payment comes due, you better have a way to pay for that shit or you're fucked.

Art and humanities are worthless only to materialist capitalist cretins that know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

Just what we want. A society of accountants.

Art and humanities are worthless only to materialist capitalist cretins that know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

Just what we want. A society of accountants.

#99 | Posted by nullifidian at 2011-11-29 01:57 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
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They're not worthless, just worth very little. If you paid a hundred grand for a degree in one of those, you're a moron.

If you want to learn for the sake of learning, google that shit. If you think you're going to pull in a decent wage as a history major, you deserve what's coming to you.

Also, you should ask the nearest humanities major to file your taxes. See where that gets you.

my degree in chinese has been rendered useless stateside by the gov't. any chinese/taiwanese that can afford to buy a place in a US university and come out w/ a degree gets a multiyear work visa. the result? american companies that need chinese speakers churn and burn the new grads for 3 or 4 years. their visas end and they go home in plenty of time for the next round of naive, overseas workers while americans who majored in the vitally "difficult" field are left out of jobs.

"They're not worthless, just worth very little. "

Worth very little only to grubby little mercantilists who only recognize monetary worth. Go ahead, create a society devoid of art, music, philosophy, literature, etc. Only a drone would think it's a society to be admired or worth living in.

"Go ahead, create a society devoid of art, music, philosophy, literature, etc."

I wasn't aware that those things all required a college degree.

"It isn't 1970 anymore. Everyone is "supposed" to go to college. If marketability isn't the number one factor in your equation these days, you're doing it wrong.
Personal enrichment and uplifting of society sounds wonderfully romantic, but when that first 500 dollar loan payment comes due, you better have a way to pay for that shit or you're fucked."

No kidding. You missed at least one salient point: "...lots of businesses just want college graduates 'cause they believe it says something about the applicant (follow-through, intellect, commitment, whatever). Those particular folks don't care what the degree is in."

If you don't believe it, go do a poll of 20 business leaders across the country. (Obviously, to be a programmer, you need to know how to program--that is, there are jobs like that, that require specific training. But lots of businesses don't require that or do that on the job.)

And no shit, it's not 1970. Who do you think I am, Ray? Afk? I'm a young whippersnapper compared to most on here.
+++++

"Also, you should ask the nearest humanities major to file your taxes. See where that gets you."

I could file your taxes just fine, pal. My degree in literature is irrelevant to that. I have a brain, and I'm not afraid to use it. Any college graduate ought to be able to fill out a tax return, and most with a brain could read the codes (if they had time and inclination) and figure out some more deductions. Most college grads I knew and most I know now could learn how to handle that. What, btw, does a CPA require in education? Is that a four-year degree? But see, that's training.

This idea that people who are well-educated can't get gigs is silly. And if you're making that argument, you damned well better not be one of those who recently came on here touting the idea that geniuses are dropouts. Why, that would make you a hypocrite. Every college graduate I know personally has done just fine, sometimes in a field directly related, sometimes not. (shrug) I don't get why so many of you care so much? RiR made a point about taxes; other made a point about the bubble and the high cost of college. Those are worth talking about. But slinging around this shit that you need a specific kind of degree (not humanities) to get a decent-paying gig is just ignorant.

"I wasn't aware that those things all required a college degree."

They don't. But for what it's worth, that's where lots of people get exposure to and immersion in those things. Most professional writers these days (for instance) come out of a degree program or at least are college-educated. Most professional musicians come out of a conservatory or a place resembling one. (Of course, in music, the general reality is that those people have to have been immersed since a very early age, which often, if not frequently, means they come from wealth already. Well, okay, with classical musicians. : ) )

"They're not worthless, just worth very little. "

Worth very little only to grubby little mercantilists who only recognize monetary worth. Go ahead, create a society devoid of art, music, philosophy, literature, etc. Only a drone would think it's a society to be admired or worth living in.

#102 | Posted by nullifidian at 2011-11-29 02:34 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
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Last time I checked Picasso didn't a piece of paper saying he was knew what he knew. I also don't recall individuals needing a degree to produce music either. I guess no one ever told Bob Marley that he needed one.

Pull your head out of your ass.

Pull your head out of your ass.

#106 | Posted by curisemssl

Pull some art of your ass, bean counter.

As far as I'm concerned, entrance to a college or university should be reserved for those who have spent at least two or four years in some constructive endeavor in the "real" world.

"Also, you should ask the nearest humanities major to file your taxes. See where that gets you."

I could file your taxes just fine, pal. My degree in literature is irrelevant to that. I have a brain, and I'm not afraid to use it. Any college graduate ought to be able to fill out a tax return, and most with a brain could read the codes (if they had time and inclination) and figure out some more deductions. Most college grads I knew and most I know now could learn how to handle that. What, btw, does a CPA require in education? Is that a four-year degree? But see, that's training.

This idea that people who are well-educated can't get gigs is silly. And if you're making that argument, you damned well better not be one of those who recently came on here touting the idea that geniuses are dropouts. Why, that would make you a hypocrite. Every college graduate I know personally has done just fine, sometimes in a field directly related, sometimes not. (shrug) I don't get why so many of you care so much? RiR made a point about taxes; other made a point about the bubble and the high cost of college. Those are worth talking about. But slinging around this shit that you need a specific kind of degree (not humanities) to get a decent-paying gig is just ignorant.

#104 | Posted by pragmatist at 2011-11-29 02:46 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
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You're right for the most part. I was simply defending accountants, while I'm not one, I work with them. Obviously, they have a better chance of getting higher quality jobs, but at what cost.

Like I said, those degrees aren't useless, no learning is, but they are worth less that one which would provide a greater return. I was simply saying that some people go in to uni because it's "the thing to do", have no real goal and end up with a very very expense piece of paper. They should have thought about the consequences first.

Do the skills they learnt in uni help them in other facits of life. Hell ya. Could those skills have been learned other ways and with a much small investment. Hells ya. Not a wise investment decision.

If I'm not mistaken, and I easily could be, you need 120 credit hours and some work experience before you can become a CPA.

Good for you on filing your taxes and yes, everyone should be able to do their own, with the cheap programs that are available. Most, however, do not, from my experience. Also, those are simple personal taxes, not even remotely close to advanced estate planning, corporate returns etc. etc.

As far as I'm concerned, entrance to a college or university should be reserved for those who have spent at least two or four years in some constructive endeavor in the "real" world.

Posted by jestgettinalong

"Constructive endeavor" meaning that which is lucrative in a profit-driven society. You're a small-minded dwarf.

Bush voter, right?

Pull your head out of your ass.

#106 | Posted by curisemssl

Pull some art of your ass, bean counter.

#107 | Posted by nullifidian at 2011-11-29 03:04 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
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Nah. I'll just buy the pieces I want. I'll leave the toiling and near poverty life to you "cool" people.

OK..so when exactly WAS the last time you checked? The only one I see here with their pin head up their perpetually-clenched rectum is you. Picasso came from an age where only the richest of the rich could afford to send their children to university. Picasso's father was a fucking art college instructor in most well-known art conservatory in Spain, so Picasso was steeped in the arts from the moment he was born.

Bob Marley? Shit...I doubt anybody currently playing at Carnegie Hall or the Met got there by busking Bob Marley covers in the fucking subway. Take your American Idol mentality for a long walk off a short pier. First, though, I'm curious...your degree is in...?

"Good for you on filing your taxes and yes, everyone should be able to do their own, with the cheap programs that are available."

Geitner couldn't do it.

First, though, I'm curious...your degree is in...?

#112 | Posted by dutch46 at 2011-11-29 03:17 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
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Finance and International Business.

It was a long time ago. Point being, creating art doesn't require an arts degree. You could find out anything you want, these days, online. Or in a library, and it wouldn't cost you a hundred grand. Do you agree or not?

And yet Bob Marley is known the world over...

"Constructive endeavor" meaning that which is lucrative in a profit-driven society."

Wrong, Buzzardbreath! I was thinking along the lines of a stint in the military, coupla seasons picking produce, or maybe carrying bedpans in a hospital. Might that make someone APPRECIATE an opportunity for college? You know, like I told you before, if STUPID was a snowflake, you'd be a walking blizzard.

"You're a small-minded dwarf."

Yep...I was right, you're terminally stupid, nothing temporary about it.

"Bush voter, right?"

Bush isn't running, you know...but then maybe you don"t, LOL

"You could find out anything you want, these days, online. Or in a library, and it wouldn't cost you a hundred grand. Do you agree or not?"

Knowledge isn't necessarily education. And by and large, I still believe that the best way to learn is through interaction with people. Even though I'm an English teacher with a degree in literature and extensive reading and researching on my own, I still get more out of a book (learning experience) when teaching it (discussing it with kids, never mind designing discussion and assessments) or talking about it with whatever adults in whatever context. This idea that one can educate oneself entirely through the magic Internet still is bunk to my way of thinking.
+++++

"I was thinking along the lines of a stint in the military, coupla seasons picking produce, or maybe carrying bedpans in a hospital. Might that make someone APPRECIATE an opportunity for college?"

Hm. How very liberal of you. : ) Kidding. But I'm with you. I think (sometimes I even believe : ) ) that every US citizen should do a couple of years of community service (for lack of a better term)--could be military, Teach for America, creative individualized volunteer work, whatever. The value to the individual and to society could be huge. It wouldn't have to be before college, but I see some wisdom in that--maybe your APPRECIATE idea but also just about maturity. But of course, this could mean that said individuals are mooching off the 'rents for another two years. While we're at it, how about we make high school graduation or GED a requirement for voting? : )

I think you should run for office and get that put through. : )

"Go ahead, create a society devoid of art, music, philosophy, literature, etc."

* * * *

Holy Strawman Batman!
Nevertheless, it's amazing the Renaissance took place without credentialization from the Boise State Universities of their day. Truly amazing. How did they manage all that, without ponytailed and Birkenstocked professors telling them how to do things?

Tell me, please: when did American colleges last create a great artist? A top composer? But never mind all that. The bill is in the mail.

"Also, you should ask the nearest humanities major to file your taxes. See where that gets you."

* * * *

Timmy Geithner has several humanities degrees. I wouldn't ask him for any help.

"While we're at it, how about we make high school graduation or GED a requirement for voting? : )"

No...but we might require answering a few basic questions like:

"You could find out anything you want, these days, online. Or in a library, and it wouldn't cost you a hundred grand. Do you agree or not?"

Knowledge isn't necessarily education. And by and large, I still believe that the best way to learn is through interaction with people. Even though I'm an English teacher with a degree in literature and extensive reading and researching on my own, I still get more out of a book (learning experience) when teaching it (discussing it with kids, never mind designing discussion and assessments) or talking about it with whatever adults in whatever context. This idea that one can educate oneself entirely through the magic Internet still is bunk to my way of thinking.

#117 | Posted by pragmatist at 2011-11-29 03:39 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
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I don't think we disagree entirely here. I'm just saying that going to university, paying a lot of money for a degree which won't allow you to make more money and then complaining that student loans are too high, because you don't make enough to cover the costs, is not all that bright.

Learning is never a "waste" but there are certainly more efficient ways of spending your earned (unearned in the case of student loans) money.

Conversations and teaching one of the best ways to learn and teach.

"Finance and International Business. "

As I predicted. A bean-counter. Most of these people work in the financial sector which has brought this country to its knees.

Plato suggested a "philospher King" would be the ideal governor of a society. Not an accountant. But you probably never heard of Plato.

Most of the Wall Street crooks have degrees in Finance. Thanks for nothing, paper-pushing parasites.

Grendel's #18 nailed it, and I don't feel like reading the rest of the slop in this thread. College is so expensive that it is now an investment that anyone who borrowed for tuition needs to pay off. I think humanities courses can help make you a well-rounded thinker, but the reality is that they don't pay the bills. If universities weren't raising tuition 8% per year, more people could "afford" to study whatever they want to, instead of being forced to study whatever will get them a job.

Finance? Ah, I had assumed as much..bean counters who believe their affluence grants them carte blanch to simply buy culture like a new pair of shoes will always be with us. Enjoy your empty life of acquisition. I thank the muses that not all businessmen have that opinion about supporting the arts.
blog.artsusa.org

Television is the perfect example of what happens when you grant personhood to Money in regards to the arts. The ledger becomes their liturgy, while the Louvre is sold off piece by piece to collectors and turned into Le Mall.

#122 | Posted by dutch46 at 2011-11-29 04:39 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
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You did, did you. Well that's nice. I don't attempt to buy culture, I have my other means of enjoying life. I choose to spend time with family and cook tasty meals. That's my art form.

I actually don't aim to acquire physical goods. I simply want to have a life where I'm not worried about personal finance in my later years. I would rather save now and enjoy the smaller things in life.

I have zero problem with others "supporting the arts" by whatever means available to them. I just don't like people bitching their loans are too big because they really can't actually produce art on their own.

Well, I'm not too sure what to say to the latter statement. T.V. is shit. You're right. That's why I do other things with my time.

As I predicted. A bean-counter. Most of these people work in the financial sector which has brought this country to its knees.

Plato suggested a "philospher King" would be the ideal governor of a society. Not an accountant. But you probably never heard of Plato.

#123 | Posted by nullifidian at 2011-11-29 04:45 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
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Sorry wrong type of finance, you were clost though. I work with small companies on valuations, for various purposes. Sadly, mostly for divorce.

I'm not a day trader. Although, as I'm trained in what they do, it provides me the insight to know how to protect myself from the shit show. What some of them did was criminal.

Yea, I think I came across him. I took a couple extra philosophy courses as electives. Interesting debates, little homework.

Most of the Wall Street crooks have degrees in Finance. Thanks for nothing, paper-pushing parasites.

#124 | Posted by nullifidian at 2011-11-29 04:49 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
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Work smarter not harder. That's what I always say.

Maybe if you could find someone to pay you to think about art and give your opinion on it you'd do the same...

Fat chance that is going to happen, I know I know.

Those particular folks don't care what the degree is in."

If you don't believe it, go do a poll of 20 business leaders across the country.

Pardon my formatting...posting on my phone and text selection is broke as fuck in the dolphin browser for some reason...

Anyway...I agree with you. My point is that there are so many "just a degree" folks out there that you are competing with a gigantic pool of people. If you want to be employed when you leave college, your best bet is to minimize your competition.

And I wasn't trying to suggest you were old as fuck with the 1970 comment, just saying that in today's world "just a degree" isn't enough in the hyper-competitive job market...if you want to guarantee employment.

Every degree has merit. It's just some degrees have more merit than others. The problem is not the degree it is the cost of getting said degree. The gov't loans are driving up the costs because the colleges want that money so they raise the costs. They also spend money on crap--multi-million dollar salaries for coaches and administrators, worthless buildings, endowments that never spend money, and I'm sure an entire list of stuff.

Worth very little only to grubby little mercantilists who only recognize monetary worth. Go ahead, create a society devoid of art, music, philosophy, literature, etc. Only a drone would think it's a society to be admired or worth living in.

Only a moron would think the world would be devoid of those things without a degree.

If anyone has seen 'Waiting for Superman' it was explained clearly that high schools graduated kids with the intention of only having 5% (or some such percentage) going onto college. Another 30% going to training type courses to get those jobs. Another 40% going to blue collar type jobs. And 25% going to construction/labor intensive type jobs. Well--there are very few blue collar jobs--and a gaggle of those kids are hitting the books going to college. Guess what? They are not getting jobs with degrees either. They have made college too easy with all the loan money. And the kids are getting degrees that might be considered useless in today's economy.

Interesting. Another time when the Chicoms come up with a good idea. What good is a degree in Women's Studies or Black Studies? There many others that do not qualify a person for a job. Of course, we have people who teach such studies, but they must not be that numerous. Most colleges require a Ph.D., don't they? Some more wasted years in school.

When I studied physics, often we'd encounter some gnarly higher-order polynomial that really just looked like no fun at all.

But surprisingly often, as in almost always, it turned out the math had actually been solved, just for it's own sake, by some Renaissance Frenchman a century earlier. Because that's how Renaissance Frenchmen did things.

Equating "currently useless" with "permanently unprofitable" is amazingly short-sighted.

"your best bet is to minimize your competition"

Agreed. One could also do very well by becoming a plumber or an electrician.
+++++

"Because that's how Renaissance Frenchmen did things."

FF! Good closing line, too.
+++++

132--It's been said for at least two decades that high school is the new college. I've still not seen Waiting for Superman. I'll get on that. If there's a company policy to prepare only a few kids for college, I have to tell you: I haven't received the memo.

I think Murphy is pretty close to the truth.

The non-college degree jobs. They just aren't here any more. And they ain't coming back. Sure, they're hiring in North Dakota. What about the other 57 states?

Maybe you're the type of guy who a generation or two ago wouldn't have wanted to go to college in the first place. Maybe just stay in town and work up at the plant. Well, they closed the plant, and you gotta do something, so college it is.

I know a guy used to be a commercial diver, now he's a professor. There is undoubtedly an education bubble that's been ballooning up rather quickly of late; I sure hope somebody learns something from it.

I have no problem with someone getting a degree in The Arts or The Humanities, etc., as long as afterwards they do not complain about being unable to find employment OR not making 'big' incomes.

Damn first I agree with Murphy and now MSgt.

I mean, there's always the Army, right? 20 years and then retire is not a bad deal... shit I'd be retired now if I had thought of that! Plus free health care.

138--Downside: might get killed. Or maimed for life. Granted, those prosthetic legs are mighty cool...

My wife has an MLS (master's in library science). She still has a regret about how she got it: by paying for it. Well, she paid because she thought she was going to be a restorer or work in an art library at a college. As life panned out, she became quite devoted to public service, first as a public librarian, now as a K-8 librarian (which duties are much bigger and more influential than that sounds). Had she known this, she would have taken the offer from the city library to have them pay for the degree in return for three years of service--she ended up working two years for that city library anyway! And we would have been out of (her) debt much sooner. Live and learn? Pass it on to your children? I don't know. Sometimes, we have to make our decisions and live with them; sometime we don't know until we live life (she just didn't think she wanted to do that with her life).

Tell me, please: when did American colleges last create a great artist? A top composer? But never mind all that. The bill is in the mail.

#118 | Posted by rightisright at 2011-11-29 03:42 PM | Reply | Flag:

Really? Are you this ignorant?

I can clearly see art isn't your bag but I know you pass their art every day and never give it a glance.

"Tell me, please: when did American colleges last create a great artist?"

Using that logic, all the business schools should be closed, since they clearly aren't producing grads who understand business.

Business school is a perfect example of how the college degree is the proxy measure, the standard bearer in the class war, the great social divide separating the two tiers of our economy.

Most of these people work in the financial sector which has brought this country to its knees.

Actually, our government was the root cause.

Actually, our government was the root cause.

Guns don't kill people, people kill people.
Government is a tool. So is a gun.

Government policy, Snoopy.

PS - I don't call you Snoopy in a derogatory manner.