The Kuwaiti-born Rauf, 52, is Imam of a mosque in Tribeca, has written extensively on Islam and its place in modern society, and often argues that American democracy is the embodiment of Islam's ideal society. (One of his books is titled, What's Right With Islam Is What's Right With America.) He is a contributor to the Washington Post's "On Faith" blog and the stated aim of his organization, Cordoba Initiative, is "to achieve a tipping point in Muslim-West relations within the next decade, steering the world back to the course of mutual recognition and respect and away from heightened tensions." His Indian-born wife is an architect and the recipient of the Interfaith Center's Award for Promoting Peace and Interfaith Understanding.

Since 9/11, Western "experts" have said repeatedly that Muslim leaders who fit Rauf's description should be sought out and empowered, to fight the rising tide of extremism. In truth, such figures abound in Muslim lands, even if their work goes unnoticed by armchair pundits elsewhere. Their cause is not helped when someone like Imam Rauf finds himself being excoriated for some perceived reluctance to condemn Hamas, and accused of being an extremist himself. If anything, this browbeating of a moderate Muslim empowers the narrative promoted by al-Qaeda, that the West loathes everything about Islam and will stop at nothing to destroy it.

Rauf and Khan have said Park51 -- it is envisaged as a 15-story structure, including a mosque, cultural center and auditorium -- will promote greater interfaith dialog. The furor over the project only underlines how desperately it is needed.

mistakenly view Islam as the malevolent force that brought down the towers

The terrorists were Muslims sent by Muslims claiming they were acting in the name of Islam... whether its their perverted view of Islam or not is besides the fact that Islam was the driving force behind the September 11th attacks.

#2 | Convolution a specialty.

So, whenever a minute minoity of extremists of any organization act violently, all members that organization are to blame? Even ones who have for decades condemned such action?

That must make sense in some alternate reality. Oh yeah. New Jersey.

"Since 9/11, Western "experts" have said repeatedly that Muslim leaders who fit Rauf's description should be sought out and empowered, to fight the rising tide of extremism. In truth, such figures abound in Muslim lands, even if their work goes unnoticed by armchair pundits elsewhere. Their cause is not helped when someone like Imam Rauf finds himself being excoriated for some perceived reluctance to condemn Hamas, and accused of being an extremist himself. If anything, this browbeating of a moderate Muslim empowers the narrative promoted by al-Qaeda, that the West loathes everything about Islam and will stop at nothing to destroy it."

In the A Hole's case, they are right.

but ignorance, bigotry and politics are more formidable obstacles. (See: Any post by Schizoidicks or, "Schizoid Dick" as we in the family affectionately refer to him.)
Posted by Corky at 04:20 PM |

.....already attacking me, and calling me vile names before I even sign in.......

......that's ok Corky....I forgive you......

as we in the family
Posted by Corky

......this is your family ?.......that's just sad.......

If they are so moderate then do one of two things--

1) Move the mosque to the Bronx--somewhere else.

2) Make it a true Inter-Faith project with a synagogue for jews, a church for christians and the mosque. Have a buddhist temple while they are at it.

That would be the conversation that folks would continue without all the nastiness that is seen right now.

If they wanted to respect the people and the memories of the victims--they would listen to the people who are sincerely being affected by them putting up a mosque.

The Pope or Catholic Church was going to build a building for the nuns near Auschwitz --there was a huge uproar by jews.

The Pope listened and then agreed and set the project somewhere else.

Rauf is a radical who wants the US under sharia law--hardly the moderate.

?.......that's just sad.......

Sad is posting a whine/hate thread about another Member, having your ass handed to you by yet other Members for whining like a little girl, .... then whining some more when you are mentioned, not headlined, in a thread.

Odd though; you don't deny being the epitome of the kind of ignorance and bigotry the author addresses.... you and Newt Gingrich, two peas in a pod.

-Rauf is a radical who wants the US under sharia law--

Proof of that statement please, sMurphy.

you don't deny being the epitome of the kind of ignorance and bigotry
#9 | Posted by Corky

....more hatred from Corky .....it's ok Corky......I forgive you.....

So, whenever a minute minoity of extremists of any organization act violently, all members that organization are to blame? Even ones who have for decades condemned such action?
#3 | Posted by Corky at 2010-08-03 05:41 PM | Reply

If for a second here we were dealing only with an extremist group like al queda that got a sucker punch in on us on 9/11 I think I would tend to agree with your sentiment,but this is not the case.
The islamic voice of reason is very much the minority today,quite opposite which you claim.Either by fear or reluctance to speak out against extremism these people are doing a great disservice to islam.
Perception is everything when judging islam in todays society.

rwd

Murph is a radical who wants the US under christian sharia law--hardly the moderate.

christian sharia law
#13 | Posted by klifferd

........there is no such thing......

........there is no such thing......

There is.

"Sharia" simply means "legal code" and the Christian legal code is simply whatever that clown in a funny hat sez it is.

No birth control, no divorce, no evolution, no jail for priests, etc etc.

Since this so-called cultural center decided that their grand opening was scheduled for September 11, 2011, I'm inclined to agree with Newt's "an act of triumphalism" comment.

What could possibly be less sensitive that that.

Olive branch, my foot!

I would never trust any Muslim who claims to be a moderate and then delivers such an obvious slap in the face to America.

I sincerely hope this project never reaches completion . . . nor would I be surprised if, in some mysterious manner, it didn't.

America and AMericans miss a great opportunity to show that our hatred should be placed at the feet of the perpetrators and not of their religious beliefs by not lambasting the desire and plans to build a Mosque near ground zero by September 11 2011. It could have been a great healing time to show the world and the rest of us that we will not be cowered by people with bad deeds and we won't blame a whole for a few bad apples. But like so many times America and AMericans must hate the whole because to do otherwise would strip the United States of a justification to bring war upon a people for the bad actions of a few. Same shit different day. Like so many times people blame all blacks for tghe crimes commited by a few. Same way with mexicans. They blame all mexicans for the bad actions of a few bad people who happen to be mexican.

Larry

Actually Larry,

The Mexicans who enter our country illegally get blamed for flouting our laws. Having said that, it's difficult for me to come down TOO hard on them as they have been tacitly invited to be here by our federal government as well as businesses who seek to utilize cheap, under-the-table laborers.

The Mexicans who enter our country illegally get blamed for flouting our laws. Having said that, it's difficult for me to come down TOO hard on them as they have been tacitly invited to be here by our federal government as well as businesses who seek to utilize cheap, under-the-table laborers.

Posted by JeffJ at 2010-08-04 08:01 AM | Reply

We all welcome them in even if many don't want to admit it.

You are a by-the-book guy, Larry.

What is going on is disgusting.

Our federal government refuses to enforce its immigration laws. Period.

This administration is beyond attrocious - hell, they even have a memo ccirculating podering ways in which they can supercede powers enumerated to congress in order to create amnesty and literally buy votes. Not that Bush and the GOP were much better.

Why even have immigration laws?

And, if these laws are so bad, why not change them to reflect the times.

I don't welcome anyone who gains entry into this country illegally.

LARRY

That's a bunch of bullshit.

When some group, any group, waves their fists in the air and shouts, "kill all infidels," (which includes you BTW)all in the name of some convoluted belief that they are right and everyone who doesn't think so needs to be killed, I'd call that's grounds for "if the shoe fits" category.

I wouldn't be surprised if some highly offended patriot might start wondering if one Ground Zero is enough. Maybe two would balance the scale a little better.

Chances are I would agree with him.

This administration is beyond attrocious - hell, they even have a memo ccirculating podering ways in which they can supercede powers enumerated to congress in order to create amnesty and literally buy votes. Not that Bush and the GOP were much better.

I don't welcome anyone who gains entry into this country illegally.

Posted by JeffJ at 2010-08-04 08:11 AM | Reply

Funny You pitch a fit about Obama;s Amnesty program but oh wait(Faking a BL2 moment yeah scary huh . . . . . . . this just in over teletype wire service ..................)

That's a bunch of bullshit.

When some group, any group, waves their fists in the air and shouts, "kill all infidels," (which includes you BTW)all in the name of some convoluted belief that they are right and everyone who doesn't think so needs to be killed, I'd call that's grounds for "if the shoe fits" category.

I wouldn't be surprised if some highly offended patriot might start wondering if one Ground Zero is enough. Maybe two would balance the scale a little better.

Chances are I would agree with him.

#21 | Posted by Twinpac at 2010-08-04 08:16 AM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

Smells the air. Gee That stench reminds me of Dubya You know where He and His supporters declared that either You are with us or against us and they waved their fists at those infidels (we who disagreed vehamentally with Dubya) and told them that they should be killed as well. I seem to recall a certain Ann Coulter declaring that "We need to execute people like (John Walker Lindh) in order to physically intimidate liberals." It reaks of the same stench that You are declaring TwinPac.

Larry

Larry,

Reagan and the Dem-lead congress passed amnesty under the auspice that we would get our house in order as a result. They failed. Reagan failed as did the Dem-lead Congress.

I don't pretend that Reagan was an infallible God. If they had fulfilled their follow-up promises (locking down the border) I would have been OK with amnesty. The same applies today: If our government proposed AND implemented a comprehensive plan to seriously-curb future illegal entry; I'd be willing to consider amnesty for those who have already entered illegally and have established themselves.

Both parties are complicit in this criminality.

I wonder what they will have for exhibits. Maybe the latest burqa fashions, or the best stoning techniques, or methods on how to disfigure women.

That said when Christian Nuns were trying to do something at Austerlitz, the Jews were upset, even though the Nuns meant no offense the Christians backed off out of respect.

The Muslims should do the same either build an interfaith facility or move the plan farther a way.

Reagan and the Dem-lead congress passed amnesty under the auspice that we would get our house in order as a result. They failed. Reagan failed as did the Dem-lead Congress.

Both parties are complicit in this criminality.

#24 | Posted by JeffJ at 2010-08-04 08:35 AM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

Funny how Dubya and a Republican led Congress never really touched the issue either. Funny how You make it a point to add the Democrat portion but yet fail to lay most of the blame at Reagan. You know the dude who signed the amnesty bill into Law a REPUBLICAN.

Larry

Larry,

This isn't a partisan issue.

The GOP is very complicit in this problem.

I get that and acknowledge it.

It would be refreshing if you could do the same in regards to Obama and the Dems - unless of course you can articulate how they are cracking down on this...

It would be refreshing if you could do the same in regards to Obama and the Dems - unless of course you can articulate how they are cracking down on this...

Posted by JeffJ at 2010-08-04 08:52 AM | Reply

NOBODY is going to do a damned thing about Illegal Immigration. Not in Washington DC at least. It would be Political Suicide Demo or Repub.

Larry

Larry... please cut the old biddy some slack.

Gran was only trying to bait a response. She just isn't very good at it and ended up sounding like a neo-con terrorist. LOL

NOBODY is going to do a damned thing about Illegal Immigration.

which is bad enough....but now DC is proving that not only do they not want to do anything about immigration, they actually want to get in the way of someone who does want to do something about illegal immigration.

pretty revealing.

Olive branch, my foot!

Oh? You no likey?

We also have eucalyptus branch.... oak branch... maple branch... poison ivy branch... etc.

We have many branches.

BBC.

Have a look at the video on the BBC link!

Some people are so annoyed... LOL.

As if they can do shit about it....

"#2 | Convolution a specialty."

What part of post #2 was factually incorrect?

I don't know why anyone thinks it is reasonable to ignore the attackers stated motives for what they did but it isn't.

This part....

"whether its their perverted view of Islam or not is besides the fact that Islam was the driving force behind the September 11th attacks."

Attacks by Islamist extremists does not equal that Islam as a whole was the driving force, it was most definitely not.

The driving force was a small minority of Islamist extremists, not mainstream Islam.

People like Rob and Schizoid Dick have trouble with that "nuance".

Moderate Muslims Behind 'Ground Zero' Mosque

Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, one of the leaders behind the Park51 project described by critics as the "Ground Zero Mosque," is a moderate Muslim who openly condemns Al Qaeda and argues that American democracy is Islam's ideal society.

Posted by Corky

Bullshit. Moderate? Bullshit!!!

If he really were a moderate, then he would understand that building a mosque on the site of an attack is interpreted as a victory.

Sorry, but this guy is not a moderate!

If he's a moderate, then he will have absolutely no problem building the mosque somewhere else.

you know, all these people screaming about sharia law coming to the usa are pretty friggin dumb.

let me put it straight: if this country adheres to its constitution, it won't happen, never.

however, if this country threats the constitution like a piece of paper, it might happen.

so it really has nothing to do with what muslims do or don't do in our country. its is up to us and how we act according to ideals that were thought of, tested and in place two hundred years before all of us were even born.

and those who are so vocal about the "islam threat" to america are those who coincidentally shit all over the constitution, reduce rights in this country in the name of fighting terror and increasing security, make unholy alliances with foreign countries like israel, and go around the world playing policeman.

Ah, our reverse barometer Eddie.

Now at least we know they are truly moderates.

If he really were a moderate, then he would understand that building a mosque on the site of an attack is interpreted as a victory.

Probably why they are not building it "ON THE SITE OF AN ATTACK." Speak in facts or be called a fear mongering liar. Not even next to it, but rather blocks away.

you know, all these people screaming about sharia law coming to the usa are pretty friggin dumb.

They want "Extreme Christian" law brought to America, so they cannot accept that Congress shall establish NO RELIGION.

"building a mosque on the site of an attack is interpreted as a victory."

GONG! It's not being built "on the site of an attack."

Just curious -- asking someone who gets lathered up over this; that is, not within the religious freedom crowd but the nativist mob -- what would be an appropriate distance from the place where the WTC formelry stood -- your choice: blocks, feet, meters, miles, light-years -- for this mosque to be built?

The driving force was a small minority of Islamist extremists, not mainstream Islam.

People like Rob and Schizoid Dick have trouble with that "nuance".

#34 | Posted by Corky

So, why build a symbol of conquest on the site then?

Moderate? Bull-fucking-shit!!!

I heard a debate between this "moderate" and Americans, some of whom lost loved ones. He had is ass handed to him even though he still continued to think that he was right.

And before you start your xenophobic tantrum, Corky, my father-in-law is a very religious Muslim. He IS a moderate. He would never associate serving God with violence against Americans!!! Even if it's a sign of peace.

BULLSHIT!!!

So, why build a symbol of conquest on the site then?

Answered:
#38 | Posted by kanrei at 2010-08-04 10:21 AM

A Mosque is a "symbol of conquest?" I thought it was a house of worship. You need help Eddie. Really.

Just curious -- asking someone who gets lathered up over this; that is, not within the religious freedom crowd but the nativist mob -- what would be an appropriate distance from the place where the WTC formelry stood -- your choice: blocks, feet, meters, miles, light-years -- for this mosque to be built?

#40 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis

Pearl Harbor should be taken care of by Hawaii. Religious freedom?

BWWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA!!!!!

The fake American thinks he knows what he's talking about. Where are you from, Doc?

Can anyone tell me what Eddie is trying to say in #44?

All of you who think that these guys aren't so bad, go to a Muslim country and contradict their teachings. Just make sure to arrange to have someone pick up your head afterward.

"If he really were a moderate, then he would understand that building a mosque on the site of an attack is interpreted as a victory. "

Probably why they are not building it "ON THE SITE OF AN ATTACK." Speak in facts or be called a fear mongering liar. Not even next to it, but rather blocks away.

#38 | Posted by kanrei

They found a wheel from one of the planes in the roof of the building.

They asked this "moderate" to build his mosque somewhere else. He refused.

go to a Muslim country and contradict their teachings.

So you would rather America be like one of your "Muslim Countries" and not allow the free practice of religion? You want America to have approved faiths and places of worship? Good to know.

Why do you hate America?

Can anyone tell me what Eddie is trying to say in #44?

#45 | Posted by kanrei

In Teabagspeak, it's something like

Pearl Harbor should be taken care of by Hawaii. Religious freedom?
BWWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA!!!!!
#44 | Posted by Eddie

How did you get to there (about three klicks past the "Next Stop: The Twight Zone" sign) by being corrected on your factually inaccurate statement -- old territory for you, Haskell -- that a mosque is to be built "on the site of an attack"?

The fake American thinks he knows what he's talking about. Where are you from, Doc?
#44 | Posted by Eddie

What's next, you moronic leg humper? "America, Love It Or Leave It"?

They found a wheel from one of the planes in the roof of the building.

ROFLMAO @ EDDIE.

A wheel? That is what you are all up in arms about? That is the cause of all your hyperbole and lies and exaggeration and hate? Yeah, you REALLY need help Eddie.

"This part....

"whether its their perverted view of Islam or not is besides the fact that Islam was the driving force behind the September 11th attacks.""

Actually, that is factually correct. Per the attackers.

"Attacks by Islamist extremists does not equal that Islam as a whole was the driving force, it was most definitely not."

If by "Islam as a whole" you meant "Muslims as a whole" then yes, that's true. Rob didn't say Muslims as a whole were behind the attack. He said Islam motivated the attack and that's true. You can't assign motivations to people when they've made their motivations clear.

"The driving force was a small minority of Islamist extremists, not mainstream Islam."

You're talking about the attackes themselves here, not their motivations. Again, we know that not all Muslims participated in 9/11. We know that not all Muslims agree with the attackers. But that doesn't change the undeniable fact that the people who did this have stated that Islam was their motivation.

I don't think Islamic extremism can be addressed if everyone wants to dance around the issue.

Islam attacked America on 9/11. All the Chearing seen on TV of Muslims basking in the deaths of Americans was very clear.

The Moderate Muslims have not been seen condeming the attacks and attitudes of Muslims chearing the deaths of Americans.

If they want Interfaith dialog, let them fund the building of a Synagog in Mecca. Show us how tolerant Muslims can be by inviting a Church and Synagog at the site of one of their defeats.

Thru out history, when Muslims defeat an enemy they build a Mosque on the site of their victims holy site.

The name of this mosque is taken from the name of a mosque built on top of a former christian church in Spain after they killed the christians and converted the place to Islam.

-The Moderate Muslims have not been seen condeming the attacks

If'n it ain't on FOX Gnus, it didn't happen!

#55 | Posted by Corky

Show me where it has occured.

"Islam attacked America on 9/11."

File that one in the burgeoning "Bullshit" folder.

If this Feisal dude were the one behind this mosque that is next to Ground Zero, there probably would have been less issues. I mean, I realize there would still be some but there could have been a reasonable discussion at least.

The dude who is building it is one of the jacakasses who when asked will say "Well its really hard to say what terrorism really is....". This is the kind of fool who may not be an extremist but who will end up with extremists speaking at his mosque because he won't make a stand. And having that next to Ground Zero shouldn't be acceptable to anyone. But we think that being tolerant is the same as being foolish pushovers so it went through anyway.

-But that doesn't change the undeniable fact that the people who did this have stated that Islam was their motivation

Their minority perspective of Islam may have been their motivation, but that does not equal, "Islam was their motivation" by a long shot.

That's like saying that Jim Jones was motivated to kill his followers by Christianity. It's just not true.

#55 | Posted by Corky

Show me where it has occured.

#56 | Posted by Marty at 2010-08-04 10:41 AM |

Google is your friend.

Can anyone tell me what Eddie is trying to say in #44?

#45 | Posted by kanrei

Just proof that you are trying to speak from authority on a subject you have no clue about.

"Islam attacked America on 9/11."
File that one in the burgeoning "Bullshit" folder.

#57 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis

So, who did attack America on 9/11, Budists?

and Corky, I am still waiting to see where a tolerant Muslim condemed the attacks on America. I have seen reports of Fatwa's on Cartoonists, but non on Terrorists. Why is that?

OK then Eddie,

Please explain what Pearl Harbor has to do with religious freedom.

Per you: Pearl Harbor should be taken care of by Hawaii. Religious freedom?

BWWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA!!!!!

Please explain Mr. Authority of What you Speak.

#55 | Posted by Corky

Show me where it has occured.

#56 | Posted by Marty at 2010-08-04 10:41 AM |

Google is your friend.

www.google.com

#60 | Posted by kanrei

Oops!

There are millions on millions of moderate Muslims,

HOWEVER!!! This guy is not.

Like I said, I should know the difference. My in-laws ARE moderate Muslims and this guy is not moderate.

#46 | Posted by LogicRules
All of you who think that these guys aren't so bad, go to a Muslim country and contradict their teachings. Just make sure to arrange to have someone pick up your head afterward.
------------
Ain't that the truth.

These people are folding like an accordion; they make Jimmy Carter look like a tough guy.

#46 | Posted by LogicRules
All of you who think that these guys aren't so bad, go to a Muslim country and contradict their teachings. Just make sure to arrange to have someone pick up your head afterward.
------------
Ain't that the truth.

These people are folding like an accordion; they make Jimmy Carter look like a tough guy.

-Show me where it has occured.

"Since 9/11, Western "experts" have said repeatedly that Muslim leaders who fit Rauf's description should be sought out and empowered, to fight the rising tide of extremism. In truth, such figures abound in Muslim lands, even if their work goes unnoticed by armchair pundits elsewhere."

I suggest you do your own homework. Try googling moderate Muslims and see what you come up with. Because it doesn't bleed, you won't likely find it on the evening news.

Hmmm... I had another comment on this thread but where did it go?

Oh right the DR's snitch ran off to Rogers and now its gone.

Really Rogers, sometimes the teacher has to smack down the tattletale on occasion too. Good Lord, I get that you don't want a constant flame war here but for fuck's sake how about a rule that people can only flag a couple times a day at most. Does corky send you an apple everyday too?

The growing anti-Muslim movement in this country is long overdue. If Muslims get their shit together and start contributing something to the world (besides forcing other countries to improve their defenses) then we can all live together. But as long as they're constantly blowing shit up, killing people over cartoons, stoning/imprisoning women for having sex and hanging children they should be pushed back in any civilized country.

So, who did attack America on 9/11, Budists?

Terrorists. Think about what was attacked.

The Pentagon- symbol of warfare and central command of NATO.

The World Trade Center- Not the American Trade Center, but the WORLD TRADE CENTER AKA Global economy.

So we have the headquarters of Nato and the world economy attacked and we want to pretend it was Islam attacking America. Pathetic.

Oops!

There are millions on millions of moderate Muslims,

Do try and actually follow the thread Eddie. I was answering the question by Marty questioning when any Muslim has condemned terrorism. It was part of teh very quote you quoted, so you had to know that.

RIF.org will help you provided you get someone to read it to you.

"The driving force was a small minority of Islamist extremists, not mainstream Islam."

Here is a chronological history of "mainstream" Islam. Pay particular notice to the use of the words, "battle," "expedition," "conquest," "campaign," "capture,"
"raid," "invasion," and the like. In light of all the history and what's taking place today in MANY countries and on MANY continents, I find it ludicrous that you want to push the "religion of peace" motto and expect us to buy it. I'm sure there are peaceful Muslims but the dominant goal of Islam in general still seems to be expansion and world control through WHATEVER means. The Gates of Vienna may now be somewhere other than Vienna.

Po' widdle Wobby, butt still so sore.

and we want to pretend it was Islam attacking America.

Looking at just the 9/11 attacks and I can see how people would think its not Islam that's the problem... widen the lens a little to include the persistent attacks over the decades, the extremism throughout the entire middle east, the lunacy over cartoon drawings, the violent oppression of women, gays, different religions, etc etc etc and I don't see how anyone can say its a minute minority. Millions of people rioted over a cartoon drawing... How the fuck can anyone not see a problem with Islam?

"So, who did attack America on 9/11, Budists?"

By your logic, Christians -- as a group -- are fighting a war against Muslims -- as a group -- in Afghanistan. Christians attacked Muslims when "they" invaded Iraq. Jews, as a group, asked pagan Romans to kill Jesus. And Protestants killed Abraham Lincoln.

Your logic is the logic of the terrorists and naifs.

Po' widdle Wobby, butt still so sore.
#72 | POSTED BY CORKY

Difference between you and me. This is clearly a dumpable comment based on RCades moderation policy, but I'm not flagging it because I'm not a fucking rat snitch. Grow a pair you little girl.

So we have the headquarters of Nato and the world economy attacked and we want to pretend it was Islam attacking America. Pathetic.

#69 | Posted by kanrei

Ok, so they didn't attack America, they attacked the whole F'ing world. Last I checked, America is still part of the whole world and our economy and way of life is tied to a global economy, which was attacked by Islam. Is that better?

Islam wants the world to go back to the stone age, and we should be infavor of that? Is that what you are saying, or do you just like to say Pathetic?

widen the lens a little to include the persistent attacks over the decades,

Oh, I have. It all goes to Iran and their desire to control the Middle East. It is the fact that the Middle East has pretty much always been occupied by one European country or another for most of the recent history. It is East vs West, not Islam vs other faiths no matter how much you try to make it seem that way.

"Since 9/11, Western "experts" have said repeatedly that Muslim leaders who fit Rauf's description should be sought out and empowered, to fight the rising tide of extremism. In truth, such figures abound in Muslim lands, even if their work goes unnoticed by armchair pundits elsewhere. Their cause is not helped when someone like Imam Rauf finds himself being excoriated for some perceived reluctance to condemn Hamas, and accused of being an extremist himself.

If anything, this browbeating of a moderate Muslim empowers the narrative promoted by al-Qaeda, that the West loathes everything about Islam and will stop at nothing to destroy it.'

al Queda does so appreciates your support in making their propaganda come true.

It was not Islam. It was the Middle East fighting against what they view as occupiers. There is no religion in this battle except for PR purposes for each side to rally support.

It is essential to any faith that they be persecuted for their beliefs. Christians tout that line all the time as do Jews with the "Chosen People" crap.

Hitler was not doing anything according to any faith, but he phrased much of his reasoning in Christian dogma to get people who would not normally support him to follow. Is that the fault of Christianity or of Hitler? Same thing with Islam.

Like I said, I should know the difference. My in-laws ARE moderate Muslims and this guy is not moderate.
#64 | Posted by Eddie

Oh, keeriest, another burst from the hole in the Universe that is Eddie.

"My in-laws ARE moderate Muslims"

Really? So what? If they're Iranian -- as you claimed when you proclaimed there's no racism in Colorado (you do know that "Iranian" is not a "race," even for racists, right?) -- then they're most likely Shia. This guy's a Sunni. Can you explain the difference, Eddie, and let us know what constitutes a "moderate" in Shia Islam and how that differs from a "moderate" in Sunni Islam?

Like I said, I should know the difference.

#64 | Posted by Eddie

Haskell, the sheer tonnage of even the basic stuff you should know but don't is of such an order of magnitude that it would cause Vermin's miscalculator to melt.

...whether its their perverted view of Islam or not is besides the fact that Islam was the driving force behind the September 11th attacks. -- #2 | Posted by Rob_The_A_Hole

So you would blame Judaism for Israel's war crimes?

"Their minority perspective of Islam may have been their motivation, but that does not equal, "Islam was their motivation" by a long shot."

Again, you can't address the behavior intelligently if you refuse to acknowledge their stated motivations.

"That's like saying that Jim Jones was motivated to kill his followers by Christianity. It's just not true."

Christianity is a little bit easier to pin down because it is split into much clearer demoninations so its easier to pick a congregation that very specifically matches your own beliefs. But yeah it was a Christian sect (I forget the exact name of their Church) and the followers who killed others on Jones' orders were undoubtedly motivated by Christianity as they interpreted it.

"How the fuck can anyone not see a problem with Islam?"

Because our little leftist/progressive friends believe in love, tolerance, compassion and understanding....unless you disagree with them. They are really too stupid to realize that once the Muslims are in charge, they are to be the FIRST ones to lose their fuckin' heads. Radical, moderate, or liberal Muslims...it doesn't matter...are not about to put up with gay marriage, free sex, drug use and all the other practices our little friends espouse. I'm gonna miss them once Sharia Law takes hold.

-So you would blame Judaism for Israel's war crimes?

Apparently these folks would blame all of Christianity for Jim Jones' murders.

Oh, I have. It all goes to Iran and their desire to control the Middle East

Huh? The majority of the 9/11 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia... have we ever been attacked by an Iranian terrorist? I get that they are fanning flames, but that doesn't excuse the other countries in the region.

The UAE is pretty much the only place outside of Israel in the Middle East where I could see ever visiting ESPECIALLY with my wife and daughter.

Is there anywhere in the ME that you would go to, especially with female friends/family?

Christianity is a little bit easier to pin down because it is split into much clearer demoninations

So is Islam. This shows how little you understand about it.

I love this movie called "The Believer." It was about a Jew who became a neo-Nazi. In once scene when they were trashing a temple, he realized his fellow Nazis had no idea why they hated Jews, they just did. He began asking them about the Jewish faith and they had no clue what he was talking about. He asked "how can you hate something you are so clueless about?"

That is many of our "anti-Islam" posters here.

-were undoubtedly motivated by Christianity as they interpreted it.

And so a religious interpretation no matter how slight and extremist the minority that make it condemns the whole religion?

Like I said, that's convoluted thinking.

So you would blame Judaism for Israel's war crimes?

#82 | POSTED BY PHOENIX

If there were more than 1 Jewish state in the world and they were all fucked up like Islamic countries. Yes.

This is a dead serious question, for all the spouting off Liberals do about peaceful Islam, would any of you honestly vacation in a Muslim nation? Would you take your wives, daughters... what if you were gay or had a gay family member or friend... would you take them?

"It was not Islam. It was the Middle East fighting against what they view as occupiers. There is no religion in this battle except for PR purposes for each side to rally support."

In a word: Bullshit.

To the people who carried out the attacks, their religious beliefs played a major role.

Is it likely that some key members of Al Queda who aren't willing to blow themselves up don't even believe in Allah? Absolutely. They may be using religion to fool others. But the dudes blowing themselves up are true believers.

Political correctness is really making people into fools. This isn't hard stuff to figure out once you take the "Its not right to criticize anyone else's religious beliefs" stick out of your ass. If their religious belief is that its OK for them to murder you for any excuse they can think of: Its OK to criticize. Sheesh.

have we ever been attacked by an Iranian terrorist?

Yes. Does Beirut ring any bells? 244 dead Marines and Reagan cut and run. How about all the Hamas and Hezbullah bullshit? How about the insurgency in Iraq?

Has Iran ever attacked us? Have they ever stopped?

So much for Rob's vacation in Indonesia.

Kanrei, I know they give support to groups like Hamas and Hezbollah, but are they actively fighting? I'm no friend to Iran, I'm just think its silly to pin everything on them and excuse the millions and millions of extremists and terrorists throughout the rest of the Middle East.

Iran can send me a whole truck load of RPGs and AK47s and I'm not going to do anything with them...

"And so a religious interpretation no matter how slight and extremist the minority that make it condemns the whole religion?

Like I said, that's convoluted thinking."

If you belonged to Jim Jones' church and killed yourself on his orders because you believed him the 2nd Coming, religion was your motivation. Undeniable fact.

That you think facts are "convoluted thinking" should give you pause but you just keep plodding along the path of brainless political correctness......

But the dudes blowing themselves up are true believers.

Actually, the vast majority of those "blowing themselves up" are not doing it. Many are drugged. In Iraq, we have found blow up cars with handcuffs in them showing the "bomber" had no choice. The bombs are mostly blown up by remote control as well, further showing the "bomber" was not in control.

This is the PR part of the war: if they can get you afraid that any Muslim might blow themselves up, then you get persecuted Muslims worldwide and then they win. Every faith wants to be persecuted- it is central that they world be against them so that they feel they are right.

So much for Rob's vacation in Indonesia.
#92 | POSTED BY CORKY

Ah calling me a kid toucher... even better. Still not flagging it woman.

"That is many of our "anti-Islam" posters here."

Perhaps, but that works both ways. Is it possible that most Muslims, being as isolated as they are kept by the leaders in many instances, have no clue what "infidels" are about?

"Christianity is a little bit easier to pin down because it is split into much clearer demoninations

So is Islam. This shows how little you understand about it."

There are sects but anyone can become an Iman and within those sects the preachings of those Imans vary widely. You're either intentionally being obtuse or you really are.

I'm no friend to Iran, I'm just think its silly to pin everything on them and excuse the millions and millions of extremists and terrorists throughout the rest of the Middle East.

I see them as part of everything that has gone wrong in the Middle East. The British broke up Persia and they want it back.

So we have the headquarters of Nato .. attacked and we want to pretend it was Islam attacking America.

#69 | Posted by kanrei

What??? Brussels was also attacked? I hope no frites stands were harmed. That would be tres tragique.

There are sects but anyone can become an Iman and within those sects the preachings of those Imans vary widely.

This proves mine and Corky's point and destroys yours. The people who did 9-11 are not Islamic.

"Actually, the vast majority of those "blowing themselves up" are not doing it. Many are drugged. "

We're talking about the motivations for 9/11. The 9/11 attackers were drugged for the entire time they were plotting, living in the US, etc?

Give me a fucking break from the PC stupidity for just a few and try to think. Please.

I see them as part of everything that has gone wrong in the Middle East.

They're a massive problem and without their weapons being sent to groups like Hezbollah the region would be astronomically better.

But Hezbollah is still using those weapons for perpetual war with Israel and the people of Lebanon are still electing Hezbollah as their representatives in government.

At the end of the day, I'm never going to see the "its just a small minority" argument when millions of millions of people rioted and killed over a cartoon.

"There are sects but anyone can become an Iman and within those sects the preachings of those Imans vary widely.

This proves mine and Corky's point and destroys yours. The people who did 9-11 are not Islamic."

Pathetic. By that logic, there are no Muslims at all. Back to the pathetic PC talking point drawing board. Or deal with reality. Your choice.

-If you belonged to Jim Jones' church and killed yourself on his orders because you believed him the 2nd Coming, religion was your motivation. Undeniable fact.

Yes, but Christianity as understood by millions of Christians was not your motivation, a warped extremist minority view of Christianity was your motivation, just as a warped extremist minority view of Islam and not Islam itself is the motivation of al Qaeda.

What is it about that that is so difficult about that for you to understand?

-That you think facts are "convoluted thinking" should give you pause but you just keep plodding along the path of brainless political correctness......

And here I was about to compliment you for holding a debate without personal rancor to cover up a lack of reasoned retort.

Glad I didn't get ahead of myself.

Sully,

Learn to read.

I said "Actually, the vast majority of those "blowing themselves up" are not doing it. Many are drugged. "

Does this mean you can find examples to counter it? Yes.

As to 9-11, it was widely reported that many of the 19 probably did not know the plane was going to be crashed, but rather thought it was just a hijacking. Only those who flew the planes knew the mission, so yes, only 4 of 19 were suicidal: the rest were murdered.

-What is it about that that is so difficult about that for you to understand?

What is it about that that is so difficult for you to understand?

Bad editing.

This proves mine and Corky's point and destroys yours. The people who did 9-11 are not Islamic."

Pathetic. By that logic, there are no Muslims at all.

No Sully. It shows that, if anyone can become an Iman, then they do not necessarily speak for all Islam any more than those Catholic priests who fucked kids spoke for all Catholics. Assholes get through all the time and those assholes cause damage, but do not define the entire group.

If you kill someone in the name of Allah, you are no more a Muslim than someone who kills in the name of Christ is a Christian.

I'm sure there are peaceful Muslims but the dominant goal of Islam in general still seems to be expansion and world control through WHATEVER means.

#71 | Posted by jestgettinalong

Give it up already!

Just shut your pie hole and learn to be a Good Dhimmi.

"The people who did 9-11 are not Islamic."

I KNEW IT! I suspected those Episcopalians all along. Thanks, Kanrei!

"The people who did 9-11 are not Islamic."

They are as far from the mainstream of Islam as Jim Jones was from the mainstream of Chritianity.

Besides, everyone knows they were Unitarians.

"Sully,

Learn to read."

We're talking about the motivation for 9/11 and you posted some bullshit about people being drugged. If you didn't know that we're talking about 9/11, you need to learn to read.

When did my America become a nation of intolerant haters? Any difference is now viewed as a threat. We hate immigrants, Islam, Christians, Jews, Israel, Washington DC, Obama, Bush, Republicans, Democrats, Rush, Sean, Beck, Olberman, each other. It is getting worse, not better.

America was founded as a beacon to the world, not a closed members' only club.

"If you kill someone in the name of Allah, you are no more a Muslim than someone who kills in the name of Christ is a Christian."

Maybe you should tell that to Major Hassan. I'm sure he THINKS he's a Muslim.

The people who did 9-11 are not Islamic.

#101 | POSTED BY KANREI

Huh? All 19 of the terrorists were Muslims.

The growing anti-Muslim movement in this country is long overdue. If Muslims get their shit together and start contributing something to the world (besides forcing other countries to improve their defenses) then we can all live together.
#68 | Posted by Rob_The_A_Hole

Back off Rob.

99.9% of Muslims LOVE America. That's an exaggeration, but that tenth of a percent are causing all the problems for Muslims.

If you didn't know that we're talking about 9/11, you need to learn to read.

#112 | Posted by sully at 2010-08-04 11:21 AM |

Actually, we are talking about Islam and if it is a terrorist faith, not exclusively 9-11. Follow the thread. The 9-11 Hijackers did not "blow themselves up," so when I was responding to another poster bringing up Muslims blowing themselves up, we were not talking about 9-11.

RIF.org will help provided you get someone to read it to you.

"Yes, but Christianity as understood by millions of Christians was not your motivation, a warped extremist minority view of Christianity was your motivation, just as a warped extremist minority view of Islam and not Islam itself is the motivation of al Qaeda.

What is it about that that is so difficult about that for you to understand?"

We may disagree on the size of the "minority" you're referring to but that's much closer to the position I've been posting all along than the BS you've been spewing.

FYI - I still disagree with your original position in case you feel the need to go back to it at some later point.

#116 | Posted by Eddie

Agreed. Someone check hell and see if it's frozen over.

Huh? All 19 of the terrorists were Muslims.

No, we know they were all Saudi and Arab, we assume they were Muslims. The fact that they killed in the name of G-d actually tells me they were not very good Muslims, but then again many people here probably think they are a good example of their faith too.

America was founded as a beacon to the world

Beacon to the White world...

Blacks, Natives, Asians really weren't a big fan of that beacon in the beginning.

We don't hate immigrants btw, we hate illegal immigrants. No one is talking about shutting down immigration, we're talking about stopping people from pouring across our border and leeching off of our social programs.

As for Islam, its given us plenty of reasons to hate it, and for the most part Islam hates America so fuck 'em.

No, we know they were all Saudi and Arab, we assume they were Muslims.

They were Muslims.

"It is getting worse, not better."

Can't be...we have the Great Community Organizer and Race Healer bowing to Arab despots, apologizing everywhere and holding beer summits. I'm quite sure we are more united than we have ever been.

"No Sully. It shows that, if anyone can become an Iman, then they do not necessarily speak for all Islam."

I said as much in post #53. I never claimed the 9/11 attackers were representative of all Islam. But they were motivated by their religious beliefs nonetheless.

-We may disagree on the size of the "minority" you're referring to but that's much closer to the position I've been posting all along than the BS you've been spewing.

Check your reading comprehension skills then, because I have said the same thing all along.

# 3 - So, whenever a minute minority of extremists of any organization act violently, all members that organization are to blame? Even ones who have for decades condemned such action?

What I said.

So, whenever a minute minoity of extremists of any organization act violently, all members that organization are to blame? Even ones who have for decades condemned such action?
#3 | Posted by Corky at 2010-08-03 05:41 PM

If for a second here we were dealing only with an extremist group like al queda that got a sucker punch in on us on 9/11 I think I would tend to agree with your sentiment,but this is not the case.
The islamic voice of reason is very much the minority today,quite opposite which you claim.Either by fear or reluctance to speak out against extremism these people are doing a great disservice to islam.
Perception is everything when judging islam in todays society.
rwd
#11 | Posted by rightwingdon at 2010-08-03 11:20 PM

So why permit a Mosque of all things to be built on the WTC site like a conquering flag? If the voice of moderate Islam is such a minority as you claim, why not institute an interfaith house of worship to bridge the gaps between Islam, Judaism and Christianity? Is it possible (if not outright obvious) that this "construction project" is tactically placed to seed more distrust? Who benefits?

So why permit a Mosque of all things to be built on the WTC site like a conquering flag?

The amount of misinformed people on this issue is staggering and tells me the news is reporting fear, not facts.

ONE LAST TIME: IT IS NOT BEING BUILT ON THE WTC SITE, BUT BLOCKS AWAY.

-I said as much in post #53. I never claimed the 9/11 attackers were representative of all Islam. But they were motivated by their religious beliefs nonetheless.

That's a distinction without a difference when talking about the thread topic of whether there should be a mosque near the 911 site, as if all Islam is to blame for 911.

Which is apparently the position of several posters here.

this is all a spit in the face of americans everywhere...they said this morning that it was an 'interfaith' building..bullshit...there are no plans for a synogogue or a christian church..only some sort of christian room...but nonetheless...its a joke and the mayor of new york is either a fool or a politically correct hack.

-why not institute an interfaith house of worship to bridge the gaps between Islam, Judaism and Christianity?

"He is a contributor to the Washington Post's "On Faith" blog and

the stated aim of his organization, Cordoba Initiative, is "to achieve a tipping point in Muslim-West relations within the next decade, steering the world back to the course of mutual recognition and respect and away from heightened tensions."

His Indian-born wife is an architect and the recipient of the Interfaith Center's Award for Promoting Peace and Interfaith Understanding."

This is what its like arguing with people who are so concerned with reaching a PC conclusion that they will ignore facts on the way to get there:

Sully: Clearly, 2 and 2 equals four so it stands to follow that....

Corky: Not so fast, that isn't fair. 2.49 rounds to 2. And 2.49 plus 2.49 equals 4.98, which clearly rounds to 5. So 2 and 2 also equals 5......

Kanrei: Don't forget 1.5 rounds to 2 and 1.5 plus 1.5 is three. So two and two can also be three.........

Sully: We're not talking about rounding. 2 and 2 is undeniably four, so from there.....

Chorus: So you think 1.5 and 1.5 is four?

When did my America become a nation of intolerant haters?

#113 | Posted by kanrei

When wasn't it?

"Check your reading comprehension skills then, because I have said the same thing all along.

# 3 - So, whenever a minute minority of extremists of any organization act violently, all members that organization are to blame? Even ones who have for decades condemned such action?

What I said."

But you used the above to make a case that Islam was not the motivation behind 9/11. Now you're pretending that's not what you were saying for some reason.

I had to explain the difference between Islam and Muslims to you in one post in this thread because you kept thinking Rob's reference to "Islam" meant "all Muslims". Remember that?

So I guess no one here would vacation in a Muslim country... odd considering its such a tiny minority of extremists and not Islam as a whole. If that were true I would think several of you could tell us about extended trips you've made to Muslim nations. Maybe you honeymooned there... Took your daughter and her friends for a summer trip... come on all those beaches, the waters of the Persian Gulf. Must have been lovely. Or if you haven't been surely you are all planning a trip there. We all plan vacations long in advance, I already know we're going to St. Lucia in early 2012.

So when you guys heading to Yemen?

Rauf is a radical who wants the US under sharia law--hardly the moderate.

#7 | Posted by MURPHY at 2010-08-03 08:55 PM

Troll, where did you gather this information?

America was founded as a beacon to the world, not a closed members' only club.

#113 | Posted by kanrei

Your grasp of American history is weak.

-This is what its like arguing with people who are so concerned with reaching a PC conclusion

This is what its like arguing with people who are so sure of other people's motivations and want to reference those supposed motivations instead of sticking to the facts.

The "Islam" as practiced by al Qaeda is not the same as the Islam as practised by the vast majority of Islamists, just as the "Christianity" as practised by Jim Jones is not the same as the Christianity as practised by the vast majority of Christians.

Now, some extremists like Schizoid Dick and others will blame all of Christianity for Jim Jones' crimes, but that doesn't make them rational either.

So I guess no one here would vacation in a Muslim country

That means nothing. I wouldn't vacation in Alabama either. I want to have fun on vacation.

This is what its like arguing with people who are so sure of other people's motivations and want to reference those supposed motivations instead of sticking to the facts.

But Corky, that is all they have.

They "know" why terrorists attacked us.

They "know" why a Mosque is going to be built.

They "know" what Islam is out to do.

They "know" what you and I think on the subject.

They "know" why we say they are wrong.

I want to have fun on vacation.

#138 | POSTED BY KANREI

Why wouldn't you have fun in a Muslim nation? All that oil money, the beaches, the history, beautiful architecture in some of their palaces and mosques. Sounds like it would be an amazing place to vacation.

Unless there was some other reason to stay away?

-But you used the above to make a case that Islam was not the motivation behind 9/11.

It was not. An extremist minority interpretation of Islam was.

"When did my America become a nation of intolerant haters?"

Probably back in the 60's sometime. Check with your little leftist/progressive friends who were burning, bombing and generally screaming hate in the streets who are now teaching in the universities and serving in the current administration.

It was not. An extremist minority interpretation of Islam was.
#141 | POSTED BY CORKY

Islam nonetheless

#139

All fundies are gnostics, theist or atheist; they know because they know because they know. I thought we had lost most of that BS when Niceville left.

Why wouldn't you have fun in a Muslim nation?

For one thing, the food sucks. For another, I don't speak the language. I like cold weather for vacations considering I live in Florida and most Muslim nations are slightly hot.

For one thing, the food sucks. For another, I don't speak the language. I like cold weather for vacations considering I live in Florida and most Muslim nations are slightly hot.

#145 | POSTED BY KANREI

For the life of me I don't get why you can't just be honest here.

Weather and food? That's why you wouldn't stay for an extended time in Yemen or Saudi Arabia or Pakistan? Come on man...

Moderate Muslim???

Is that like: boneless ribs, conservative Democrat, optimized ethics, or Union Worker?

-Islam nonetheless

So what?

Does it make any difference whether Jim Jones was a self-deluded Christian or whether these terrorists were self-deluded Islamists?

They are all people who use religion to justify their insane actions, even when the religion they use does not support their interpretations.

Does it make any difference whether Jim Jones was a self-deluded Christian or whether these terrorists were self-deluded Islamists?

If its just Jim Jones vs. 9/11 you have a point... if taken on the entire state of Islam today and over the past few decades you don't. Islam today is fucked up.

But we see the point. Because this guy who wants to build this mosque is Muslim, he can't be a moderate like the vast majority of Muslims, he must be an extremist like al Qaeda.

Did I mention convoluted thinking?

- Islam today is fucked up.

Al Qaeda appreciates your support of their propaganda that the West hates all of Islam, not just al Qaeda.

For the life of me I don't get why you can't just be honest here.

Weather and food? That's why you wouldn't stay for an extended time in Yemen or Saudi Arabia or Pakistan? Come on man...

#146 | Posted by Rob_The_A_Hole at 2010-08-04 11:51 AM

I am being honest here. You are assuming your view is a constant reality among everyone, but it isn't. I went to Israel in 1984 and hated it. It was hot as hell and the food sucked. I lost a ton of weight there because everything tasted like crap. I swore I would never return to the Middle East again.

Al Qaeda appreciates your support of their propaganda that the West hates all of Islam, not just al Qaeda.
#151 | POSTED BY CORKY

I wasn't aware that every rioter losing their shit over a cartoon of Mohammed was a member of Al Qaeda. Interesting.

What's funny/sad is that we have not only the usual suspect right wingers like Rob and the normally lucid indies like Sully and some atheist liberals like Schizoid Dick and even freak show theists like Sabbatai all supporting al Qaeda's propaganda that the West hates Islam.

I couldn't care less if they build there mosque on Ground Zero.

Just like I won't care when a rival Muslim gang blows their fucking building up.

I wasn't aware that every rioter losing their shit over a cartoon of Mohammad was the same as a terrorist who blows up buildings.

Interesting.

Alright Kanrei... Its just funny to me cuz every time I ask that question (and I've asked it a lot), a person claiming there is nothing wrong with Islam has a reason for never wanting to go to a Muslim nation.

Maybe you have other reasons, but come on. Its because the risk of violence towards westerners especially Americans is too high and they treat women and other groups of people like shit.

What's funny/sad is that we have not only the usual suspect right wingers like Rob and the normally lucid indies like Sully and some atheist liberals like Schizoid Dick and even freak show theists like Sabbatai all supporting al Qaeda's propaganda that the West hates Islam.

#154 | Posted by Corky

....and self righteous pricks like Corky who pretend to be above it all, like all good progressives.

I wasn't aware that every rioter losing their shit over a cartoon of Mohammad was the same as a terrorist who blows up buildings.
Interesting.

#156 | POSTED BY CORKY

They were killing people over a cartoon... you think setting off a bomb would be a stretch for them?

Troll, where did you gather this information?

#135 | Posted by jackass at 2010

maybe like a book or something? or by keeping his eyes open and listening rather than obeying the gods of the media..

What's funny/sad is that we have not only the usual suspect right wingers like Rob and the normally lucid indies like Sully and some atheist liberals like Schizoid Dick and even freak show theists like Sabbatai all supporting al Qaeda's propaganda that the West hates Islam.
#154 | POSTED BY CORKY

Holy shit, could you be more full of yourself.

That means nothing. I wouldn't vacation in Alabama either. I want to have fun on vacation.

#138 | Posted by kanrei

uh excuse me sir...but gulf shores is a terriffic place to vacation..UNLESS you dont like casinos and beaches with half naked women and alcohol every few feet....

Now, all that being said, if someone wants to show us the solid facts that the builders of this mosque are indeed secretly al Qaeda members and/or supporters and that their funding comes from such, then I'll protest the mosque, too.

But given the long-time moderate record of these individuals and their work towards peace and inter-faith relations and their allegiance to mainstream Islam, not minority factions, then the burden of proof is on the accusers.

Rob,

Many people will answer "no" to your question because of assumptions about the area. When you go there, you find it is basically like any where else for the most part. Also, those areas are usually in the news for war type activities and nobody would want to go to a war zone for vacation.

I am pretty sure countries in South America have really low tourist turnout too, but they are not Muslim at all.

-every rioter losing their shit over a cartoon

-They were killing people over a cartoon...

You really don't even read what you post, do you?

But given the long-time moderate record of these individuals and their work towards peace and inter-faith relations and their allegiance to mainstream Islam, not minority factions, then the burden of proof is on the accusers.
#163 | POSTED BY CORKY

Maybe the idea of radicalism or moderate isn't important here, but the idea of putting a Mosque so close to the site where Muslims killed 3000 Americans in the name of Islam.

You really don't even read what you post, do you?
#165 | POSTED BY CORKY

Millions of Muslims weren't rioting and killing because someone put some ink on a piece of paper?

When you go there, you find it is basically like any where else for the most part.

Right like that couple that was arrested for kissing in public?

I wonder what Theo Van Gogh's opinion of this mosque is... oh right.

New York voted to allow the building of the mosque because of one of the following.

1. Members of voting committee were told they would die by UAE.
2. They believe that if they allow the mosque they will not be involved in the next attack.
3. Obama has told them to vote like a liberal crack whore.
4. A ton of money has exchanged hands - check some bank accounts and hold them accountable.

Bottom line, pork ribs and pickled pigs feet are never going to be allowed within 3 city blocks of the new mecca obelisk

Because in the future, NYorkers and visitors to the site can look at the 911 Memorial and the mosque and wonder over how things could have been so much different in the past.

BOOM>..
rob...can you send corky a bandaide...looks like he needs one..

I guess liberals would be OK with building an Operation Rescue office on the former site of Dr. George Tiller's abortion clinic?

They did a report on NBC last night about this. The reporter went to the site of the Mosque. Looked and could not see Ground Zero. He then walked 75 YARDS down the street and, if he turned to the left, he saw the outer gate of Ground Zero 140 YARDS away.

You cannot see GZ from the Mosque and cannot see the Mosque from GZ.

I guess liberals would be OK with building an Operation Rescue office on the former site of Dr. George Tiller's abortion clinic?

On it? No

Next to it? No

A few blocks away? NO problem.

Oh, and based on private property laws and zoning, I would have no real say even if they wanted to build it on the site if the owners of the site had no problem allowing it.

"They "know" why terrorists attacked us."

That's not a claim of psychic powers. They told us.

Much more interesting is the phenomenon of others assigning them other motives.

NBC, MSNBC, CNN, they are all going to make it seam OK. Can anyone say liberal dumbass media

9mm ?

He's bragging.

They "know" why terrorists attacked us."

That's not a claim of psychic powers. They told us.

Selective belief of known liars never ceases to amaze me. The right displayed it leading up to the war in Iraq.

The Right: Saddam sends money to terrorists.

The Left: How do you know?

The Right: He said he did.

The Left: Saddam has no WMD's.

The Right: How do you know?

The Left: He said so.

The Right: You can't trust him, he lies.

For those oh so worried about AQ being able to use the push back against this as proof that the West hates Islam, couldn't AQ also claim that building a Mosque on/near the site where they attacked America as a victory for them? Its not like the people they're marketing to will know if its "moderate" or not.

Maybe we should not give a fuck about Al Qaeda's marketing campaigns?

Besides if Corky's right and its just a tiny minuscule minority of Muslims that are violent, all the marketing in the world won't matter... cuz they're too busy singing songs and planting flowers and playing with puppies to be violent.

The right displayed it leading up to the war in Iraq.

#179 | POSTED BY KANREI

Is this where I need to post speeches made by current high level Obama Admin officials making speeches in congress talking about the threat of Saddam Hussein?

They're pretty easy to find... along with their voting record.

couldn't AQ also claim that building a Mosque on/near the site where they attacked America as a victory for them

I don't think so. The building of the Mosque would counter the claims that America is at war with Islam and wants to rid the planet of it.

Jihad is a defensive war so AQ needs Islam to think it is being attacked to justify Jihad. To do this, they use Arab appearing people to commit horrible deeds, then say "Allah Ackbar" and we do the rest for them.

so when will japan erect a center close to pearl harbor?

what about the catholic church deciding not to put a church at auchiwz? the pope said he denied that because it was 'insensitive' to the jews who were murdered there...

and WHEN IN THe fuck will muslims show respect toward US rather than ALWASY demanding respect to them?
answer..WHY should they when they have so many dupes to bow to thier every whim and call...( I didnt say beck and call..didnt want to get all you radicals upset)

Is this where I need to post speeches made by current high level Obama Admin officials making speeches in congress talking about the threat of Saddam Hussein?

No, because I am making fun of us bloggers and not officials. The conversation I typed occurred here daily in 2003 and 2004. Those are things we said, not Bush.

"Al Qaeda appreciates your support of their propaganda that the West hates all of Islam, not just al Qaeda."

Who cares? The notion that our opinion of Islam one way or the other justifies Al Queda's actions is false.

We should be allowed to have whatever opinions we want about Islam and to voice those opinions within reason without being attacked. As long as we're not forcing our opinions on you, not discriminating against you if you live here and not harming you, its none of your business if we think your religion is fantastic or total trash. If you access our websites or other media and are offended, turn your attention elsewhere. You have no right to police us.

If the only reason why people were joining Al Queda is that they think we are disrespectful of their religion then they were fucked up before they joined Al Queda. Because that's really none of their business and if their religion tells them its their business then their religion IS aggressive and intrusive. (Please note, the IF at the front of this paragraph indicates I'm talking hypothetical. Thanks)

Al Queda's most effective rhetoric goes along the lines of this: "You are poor and unhappy. Do you know who made your life this way? Infidels! It is your religious duty to wipe them out. You have failed to engage in jihad and that's why your life sucks. Martyr blah blah jihad blah blah streets full of blood blah blah blah blah......." Too bad for them that their real problem isn't thousands of miles away but right in front of their ignorant faces: Their governements are shitty and self serving. They are kept poor and ignorant because their governments want them that way.

Jihad is a defensive war so AQ needs Islam to think it is being attacked to justify Jihad.

But don't they also need victories to keep the morale of their fighters up? To show them that they can win this war to turn the whole world Muslim?

"Look, they are building our mosques where we struck at them, clearly we are winning."

They're not going to know or care that its a "moderate" mosque... just the fact that it is one is enough for their propaganda.

"Selective belief of known liars never ceases to amaze me."

LOL. Now you're going to deny that people who are roped in by Al Queda think they are performing a religious duty? Really? Sure you want to go there? These terror leaders talk about religion and jihad incessantly and people join them even though they believe none of it?

I've been rightfully criticized for insulting people when making my arguements but I really don't know how to respond to this insanity without being insulting. Its insulting to me that someone would post nonsense and expect a reasoned response.

NO Sully,

I am countering this:

They "know" why terrorists attacked us."

That's not a claim of psychic powers. They told us.

Terrorists lie. You are saying something is true based on the world of a liar. You don't see the flaw in that?

-I don't think so. The building of the Mosque would counter the claims that America is at war with Islam and wants to rid the planet of it.

A moment of clarity in a sea of "Who cares?".

-Their governements are shitty and self serving. They are kept poor and ignorant because their governments want them that way.

Many of their governments, even their countries, are the result of lines drawn on maps after WWII by imperialists who are now SO surprised that that didn't work out too well.

"But do keep up the good work!" - Osama bin Hiddin'

"Terrorists lie. You are saying something is true based on the world of a liar. You don't see the flaw in that?"

I'm saying its true based on a world of over-fucking-whelming evidence. I have to assume that people who post on a topic here have some common knowledge on the topic. I also have to assume common sense. My posts are too wordy as it is.

Al Queda recruits using almost entirely religious rhetoric. You know this. Now the leaders could be just manipulating people. But the followers, the people on the planes in this example - How would they be convinced to blow themselves up and murder 3,000 people unless they believed the rhetoric? Its easy to say the guys who blow themselves up are liars. After all, they talk about how great it is to be a martyr but you won't see Bin Laden with a bomb vest unless he's putting it on someone else. But when it comes to the foot soldiers, they not only talk the talk, they walk the walk. Unless you just want to be contrary and live in a complete state of denial, its pretty obvious that they believe the rhetoric coming from their commanders. So when I say they tell us what their motives are, I'm not just talking about Bin Laden tapes. I'm talking about what has been well documented in the madrassas, on thousands of jihadi websites, in tapes that people who are about to kill themselves leave behind, etc etc etc. I know that you are aware that all this stuff exists. If nobody believed it, they wouldn't continue to put it out there. Common sense. But I still have to spoon feed it back to you? I'm beside myself that anyone needs this explained.

But the followers, the people on the planes in this example - How would they be convinced to blow themselves up and murder 3,000 people unless they believed the rhetoric?

I covered that already here, but I will repost it for you.

As to 9-11, it was widely reported that many of the 19 probably did not know the plane was going to be crashed, but rather thought it was just a hijacking. Only those who flew the planes knew the mission, so yes, only 4 of 19 were suicidal: the rest were murdered.

#106 | Posted by kanrei at 2010-08-04 11:16 AM

"Many of their governments, even their countries, are the result of lines drawn on maps after WWII by imperialists who are now SO surprised that that didn't work out too well."

Well first of all almost every border on the planet can fall into that category if you go back far enough.

That aside, the "imperialists" left. Going back generations to scapegoat others for your situation in the present isn't a reasoble way to live. Its ignorance. In the present, in REALITY the people opressing them now are not infidels living thousands of miles away. Its small minority of their own people. They can be dealt with or they can be allowed to continue to exploit. But xenophobic scapegoating that goes back generations just plays right into their hands.

Its not as if it is reasonable for an entire country to throw up their hands and say "70 years ago we got screwed so we're forever doomed to poverty and ignorance". They can deal with their current situation or not but whatever they decide they are responsible for their own actions. Brown people aren't grown babies who need to be held to a partonizingly lower standard.

"I covered that already here, but I will repost it for you.

As to 9-11, it was widely reported that many of the 19 probably did not know the plane was going to be crashed, but rather thought it was just a hijacking. Only those who flew the planes knew the mission, so yes, only 4 of 19 were suicidal: the rest were murdered."

That sounds like widely reported bullshit to me but regardless, it doesn't address what I said.

What about all the websites, religious schools and all the other rhetoric used in recruiting? We're not talking now about what they tell us but what they tell their own people, from whom they are trying to recruit.... Would all the rhetoric center around religion if nobody believes it? Would they continue to use recruiting methods that don't work?

I already know the answer. I'm asking you to think. And I can't believe I had to do it again.

it doesn't address what I said.

It directly addresses what you said. You spoke of "19 hijackers blowing themselves up," and I commented that it was widely reported that most probably did not know the plane was going to be crashed, so 19 did not commit suicide. The people flying the plane did, but the others were murdered.

What about all the websites, religious schools and all the other rhetoric used in recruiting?

Covered that many many times already too as has Corky. I am tired of repeating myself over and over again. The things you are asking have already been answered in this thread.

Some of the best recruiting rhetoric is about how those nasty infidel Americans hate all of Islam, not just al Qaeda, and things like bashing known moderate Muslims like the mosque builders only plays into that spiel as teh article notes.

Allowing the building of the mosques runs against their pitch, as K says.

When the "moderate" muslims make REGULARLY make statements like:

"Any man who cuts the nose off his wife for leaving him, and then tries to use the Koran or Islam to justifiy the act is shoving his SHIT onto the face of Allah. Any religious scholar that tries to justify it, INCLUDING ancient scholars, Even if they often have been accepted in Islamic Law, is also shoving his own SHIT onto the face of Allah."

...it would be a small and modest start in the right direction.

As to 9-11, it was widely reported that many of the 19 probably did not know the plane was going to be crashed, but rather thought it was just a hijacking. Only those who flew the planes knew the mission, so yes, only 4 of 19 were suicidal: the rest were murdered.

What is the evidence of this?

They killed passengers on board before they crashed the planes. Let's not act like they were naive innocents caught up in something they didn't understand.

I don't really know anything about this so called moderate trying to get this Mosque made, but does anyone know his thoughts on Burqas?

"I don't really know anything about this so called moderate trying to get this Mosque made"

The interview I saw with him, he was being baited by a reporter trying to get him to sound wishy-washy on terrorism. So he refused to call Hamas and some Egyptian group whose name escapes me "terrorists". But then he made additional comments that made it sound like nobody is really a terrorist. He's not pro-terror but can't say he's anti either. Indifferent.

"Some of the best recruiting rhetoric is about how those nasty infidel Americans hate all of Islam"

That's nobody else's business but our own. If people are blowing us up because we don't like Islam then their religion is aggresively violent.

I'm not willing to give up my rights to make others happy.

"Covered that many many times already too as has Corky. I am tired of repeating myself over and over again. The things you are asking have already been answered in this thread."

More bullshit. You can't get around this logic: If terrorist footsoldiers didn't believe the religious rhetoric then their leaders wouldn't continue to try to use it to manipulate them.

You haven't addressed that. Not even close. And you can't because its 100% true. I don't know why you even feel the need to "address it" to be honest. If the simple logic, common sense and facts are bothersome to you, that's your problem.

The interview I saw with him, he was being baited by a reporter trying to get him to sound wishy-washy on terrorism. So he refused to call Hamas and some Egyptian group whose name escapes me "terrorists". But then he made additional comments that made it sound like nobody is really a terrorist. He's not pro-terror but can't say he's anti either. Indifferent.

#201 | POSTED BY SULLY

Just read a few things on him. Saw the thing about him not wanting to call Hamas a terrorist so that's a little fucked up and makes me believe this moderate talk is nonsense.

There was also a HuffPo oped he wrote about France banning burkas where he points out that its not a Muslim rule but a cultural thing. But he doesn't condemn them...

Someone who doesn't condemn Hamas or the oppression of women is a moderate? Well I guess when compared to other Muslims.

#202

I see you still can't separate the wheat from the chaff, the mostly moderate Muslims from the extremist radical few.

"The Kuwaiti-born Rauf, 52, is Imam of a mosque in Tribeca, has written extensively on Islam and its place in modern society, and often argues that American democracy is the embodiment of Islam's ideal society. (One of his books is titled, What's Right With Islam Is What's Right With America.)

He is a contributor to the Washington Post's "On Faith" blog and the stated aim of his organization, Cordoba Initiative, is "to achieve a tipping point in Muslim-West relations within the next decade, steering the world back to the course of mutual recognition and respect and away from heightened tensions."

His Indian-born wife is an architect and the recipient of the Interfaith Center's Award for Promoting Peace and Interfaith Understanding."

Yep, terrorists for sure.

"Some of the best recruiting rhetoric is about how those nasty infidel Americans hate all of Islam"

Honestly, the case you are making is "They hate us for our freedom". Its not the job of Muslims to poll our opinions on Islam and correct us if they don't agree. If they believe it is, that is there problem. If they commit violence for this reason, then we should be at war with them.

I don't really believe too many people are turning all jihadi over our opinions but if you do and you are still defending them for that then that's pretty fucked up.

They killed passengers on board before they crashed the planes.

No, they didn't. According to the calls of passengers on the planes, they killed a few members of the flight crew, but the passengers were alive up until the crash. This is how Flight 93 crashsed and, more importantly, how people were making calls from the hijacked planes. You see, dead people don't use phones.

The amount of wrong information coming from those opposed to the Mosque and the events of 9-11 is ratehr scary.

#206 | POSTED BY CORKY

Do you think Hamas is a terrorist org? Cuz this douche your trumpeting doesn't...

You haven't addressed that.

Oh, but I have. That you cannot comprehend what you read is not my problem.

Here is one time: Actually, the vast majority of those "blowing themselves up" are not doing it. Many are drugged. In Iraq, we have found blow up cars with handcuffs in them showing the "bomber" had no choice. The bombs are mostly blown up by remote control as well, further showing the "bomber" was not in control.

This is the PR part of the war: if they can get you afraid that any Muslim might blow themselves up, then you get persecuted Muslims worldwide and then they win. Every faith wants to be persecuted- it is central that they world be against them so that they feel they are right.

#95 | Posted by kanrei at 2010-08-04 11:10 AM |

"I see you still can't separate the wheat from the chaff, the mostly moderate Muslims from the extremist radical few."

You're the one promoting the idea that "America hates Islam" is an effective recruiting tool, not me. In order for your theory to be true, then a good number of Muslims would have to find our opinion of Islam worth killing over. See, the leaders wouldn't choose a recruiting method with narrow appeal.

What I said is that they tell the poor that they are poor because they refuse to engage in jihad against the infidels keeping them down. That's how they recruit.

Don't assign me your ridiculous position. I've said more than once already that I don't believe this is how they recruit. I was refuting the idea that Muslims kill over our opinions, you were the one promoting it.

But if what you are saying were true, then we should be at war with them. Our opinions are none of their business.

-Honestly, the case you are making is "They hate us for our freedom".

You aren't usually so much into creating Strawmen, Sully.

The case I am making is that it was a very small minority of extremist radical Muslims who attacked us on 911, and that they and their radical interpretation of Islam are not the same as the peaceful moderate Muslims (and of the vast majority of Islam) who want to build this community center/mosque as a way of promoting peace and understanding among this and future generations.

"Oh, but I have. That you cannot comprehend what you read is not my problem."

The majority of jihadist foot soldiers are not being controlled by drugs. I'm not even willing to debate that. And that STILL doesn't adresss what I said anyway. They aren't recruiting by saying "FREE DRUGS HERE!". LOL.

They are saying Allah, jihad, martyr, etc. If that didn't appeal to people they wouldn't be doing it. You have not addressed that no matter how badly you wished you did. And there is no "addressing it" because its the simple truth.

-promoting peace and understanding among this and future generations

Of course, I understand how Rob isn't interested in that kind of "tripe", but you usually show more sense.

If that didn't appeal to people they wouldn't be doing it. You have not addressed that no matter how badly you wished you did.

Yes, I did. Here. Read it with someone next to you to help explain it to you.

Actually, the vast majority of those "blowing themselves up" are not doing it. Many are drugged. In Iraq, we have found blow up cars with handcuffs in them showing the "bomber" had no choice. The bombs are mostly blown up by remote control as well, further showing the "bomber" was not in control.

These are not "suicide bombings." These are people drugged and handcuffed to bombs so that a body will be found in the wreckage and we will believe in the concept of the suicide bomber. Suicide is a sin in all faiths, so anyone killing themselves is not religious.

Of course, to understand that would require thought from you.

Of course, I understand how Rob isn't interested in that kind of "tripe", but you usually show more sense.
#214 | POSTED BY CORKY

He doesn't think that Hamas is a terrorist organization. You're a fucking joke if you think someone like that is interested in peace and understanding.

ONE LAST TIME: IT IS NOT BEING BUILT ON THE WTC SITE, BUT BLOCKS AWAY.

#127 | Posted by kanrei

How far did the debree fly? How many blocks did the rubble tumble? How many New Yorkers had to flee how far to get to safety?

The attack was HUGE. Many blocks were buried under the dust and debree. Get off your hight horse telling us how big a wound Islam inflicted on America. Americans get to define how much we were hurt when a bunch of Islamics murdered thousands of people in the name of Allah and Millions of Muslims thru out the world cheered and would have been happier if the planes had Nukes on them and New York and Washington DC were wiped off the face of the planet.

I don't care how many blocks away it is. If it is in New York, then it is TOO F'ing Close!

Build a Synagog in Mecca to show US how tolerant You are!

You're the one promoting the idea that "America hates Islam" is an effective recruiting tool

Recruiting tool for them, not us. "They hate us for our freedoms" is the American recruiting tool to be used against them. They are saying "they hate us for our faith." Both are bullshit excuses to kill.

If it is in New York, then it is TOO F'ing Close!

No understanding of America. Shame.

Build a Synagog in Mecca to show US how tolerant You are!

Mecca is not America, does not tout religious freedom, and is what we fight against. If you want to use their standards to live, you move there. I would rather be free in America.

If you want to use their standards to live, you move there. I would rather be free in America.

Wait, I thought the ME was peaceful and only a small minority of muslims were the problem?

-He doesn't think that Hamas is a terrorist organization.

Really? Could I see the direct quote in context?

Or is it more like, "Saw the thing about him not wanting to call Hamas a terrorist so that's a little fucked up"?

I thought the ME was peaceful and only a small minority of muslims were the problem?

I never said the ME was peaceful, did I? We were talking about Muslims, not nations.

No strawmen and no moving goal posts.

No Kanrei, you apparently have no understanding of human emotion.
Are you an Imam? Have you called for a Fatwa against anyone?

Really? Could I see the direct quote in context?
Or is it more like, "Saw the thing about him not wanting to call Hamas a terrorist so that's a little fucked up"?

#222 | POSTED BY CORKY

Its fucking Hamas! Its not a gray area type question. They send their "soldiers" to bomb Israeli markets and clubs and pizzerias... they fire rockets indiscriminately at civilian populations...

They directly target civilians in hopes of terrorizing them into submission. That makes them a terrorist organization.

Any Muslim that doesn't think they're flat out a terrorist organization is not a moderate and probably sides with them.

I never said the ME was peaceful, did I? We were talking about Muslims, not nations.
No strawmen and no moving goal posts.

#223 | POSTED BY KANREI

Its fucking Saudi Arabia!!!!! there's probably 23 non muslims in the whole damn country and I'd bet zero non muslims in their government. So if the country is fucked up, its because the people are fucked up!

"You aren't usually so much into creating Strawmen, Sully."

I wasn't saying that's your main position. But you keep trying to tell people like Rob that they are playing right into Al Queda's hands by voicing negative opinions of Islam. And what I'm saying is right or wrong, he's entitled to his opinion. And anyone who thinks they should kill him for voicing an opinion is basically saying they should kill him for exercising free speech in a way they don't like. Free speech is a freedom we hold dear.

I know you were doing it more to tweak Rob than anything else but it just hits a nerve with me. To the extent that jihadists are motivated by Americans being critical of Islam, I don't give a shit. We can say whatever we want and if they want to fight over it, we should fight them. If we somehow had a sit down with all these people and the one last sticking point was "OK, the last thing we need from Americans is never to be crticial of Islam", I would hope we'd tell them to fuck themselves and deal with the consequences. Honestly. The whole concept of them policing our thoughts from afar bugs the shit out of me.

you apparently have no understanding of human emotion.

Oh, I do. Emotion is never cause to deny anyone their rights. Your hate blinds reason and you cannot see you are committed the very crimes you claim to hate from "them." You say they don't allow Churches to be built at sight X and they are assholes for that, but somehow we are within our right to do the same thing?

You apparently have no understanding of NOT being a hypocrite nor any understanding of what it means to be in America.

Suicide is a sin in all faiths, so anyone killing themselves is not religious.

Of course, to understand that would require thought from you.

#215 | Posted by kanrei

Not if you consider it war and are of Islam. The Islamic leaders keep recruiting people to blow themselfs up to get to their boat load of virgins.

"Really? Could I see the direct quote in context?"

There was a direct quote in the NY Post a few weeks back. You can look it up. He was being baited and he took the bait.

#217 | Posted by Marty

Actually the report is that a piece of the one of the planes landed on the roof of the building.

There are ashes of the victims everywhere.

If the muslims cared--they would listen and move the Cordoba project somewhere else in NY.

Um, the question wasn't about Hamas, it was about his quote, and I think I missed his direct quote on Hamas not being a terrorist org somewhere in that juvenile diatribe.

LMAO:

Not if you consider it war and are of Islam.

Yes, even then.

The Islamic leaders keep recruiting people to blow themselfs up to get to their boat load of virgins.

That you believe such a stupid excuse saddens me. They are handcuffed to the cars and the bombs are blown up remotely. These are not people killing themselves for Allah and virgins, these are people being killed so that we believe they did it for Allah and virgins.

There was a direct quote in the NY Post a few weeks back. You can look it up. He was being baited and he took the bait.

#230 | Posted by Sully

lmao, I would expect if there was, you might know that, but not Rob.

Traditionally, Islam has built mosques on historical sites as a sign of conquest. Look at the Hagia Sophia in Turkey, the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, and the Great Mosque of Cordoba in Spain. In every case, Muslims built mosques on those spots to send a message: "We conquered you, took your holy site, and now it belongs to us." That is the exact same message that building this mosque is supposed to send. In fact, just in case you missed what they're trying to do, they're naming it Cordoba House just to make sure no one can be confused....

#219 | Posted by CalifChris at 2010-08-04 02:24 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
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How fucking stupid are these fucking right winged assholes. There are 2 mosques in Wichita Kansas. They are built on land that wasn't conquered at all. Unless of course You are lame enough to declare buying property with money as conquering. What fucking war happened in Wichita Kansas that the Muslims won for them to have the ability to have 2 mosques in wichita Kansas?? Come on Christine be reasonable. What War did Muslims wage to conquer the land these 2 mosques are built upon?? G-d damned stupidity is all this is.

Larry

The guy building it says he is doing it to build understanding. Then he needs to show a little of it. It may be his right to build it, but that does not make it right to do it.

And I do not HATE him or Islam. I think they are being hateful and inconsiderate and will ultimatly undermine their stated purpose.

I would love a world where the different religions respected and tolerated each other, but building a Mosque in New York on teh aniversary of 911 is NOT the way to go about it.

Saudi Arabia: Muslim 100%

#233 | Posted by Rob_The_A_Hole

I never realized Saudi Arabia was 100% of the Middle East. Does Iraq, Syria, Lebennon, Iran, Turkey, Israel, and Egypt know about this?

Don't know why the fuss. Yes, it's emotional. But, rationally, if these folks have a right to build there, then let 'em. Or, some rich Christian group could buy their land and put up a Christian church. Or, the Scientologists could for all I care. And, they shouldn't pull any zoning law bullshit as a method of backhanded discrimination either. Newt's all fucking wet on this issue.

"Recruiting tool for them, not us."

I know. Last time I'm making this point: IF that were really an effective recruiting tool for them (which I don't believe it is), then "they hate us for our freedoms" is essentially true.

We are free to feel however the fuck we want about Islam. Whether you agree or not, that's the case. IF they hate us for that and that's the reason why people join Al Queda, fuck them. I'd rather deal with Al Queda attacking us then having them police my thoughts. And so would most Americans. That's why "they hate us for our freedoms" resonates with people who believe it.

AGAIN - I reject that this is how they effectively recruit. I'm saying IF that is really how they got people to join up, then "they hate us for our freedoms" is truth.

on teh aniversary of 911

More misinformation. This was reported in the New York Daily News. Would you quote the Globe?

When did Islam conquer Wichita, Kansas?

Good question, Lar.

Um, the question wasn't about Hamas, it was about his quote, and I think I missed his direct quote on Hamas not being a terrorist org somewhere in that juvenile diatribe.
#232 | POSTED BY CORKY

What about them being understanging to promote understanding?

"lmao, I would expect if there was, you might know that"

Just to be clear, I read the NY Post because they have a good sports section. ;)

What's ironic also is rwingers wanting to the ebil gubmint to tell property owners what they can build on an already zoned site.

Aw, see Sully! You gave him a hint!

What about them being understanging to promote understanding?

Posted by Marty at 2010-08-04 02:37 PM

It would be easier if the people against it showed some honesty. "They are building it ON Ground Zero!" "Islam is a terrorist religion!" "They are openning it on 9-11!"

With this much stupid and irrational nonsense being thrown around, it is hard to show any understanding. Honesty would get sympathy, but lying and hysterics makes those you are lying about just as stubborn.

What about them being understanging to promote understanding?

#244 | Posted by Marty

Is it only America who should be understanding? If people tell him, this offends us greatly, should he not consider that? Or is he lying about his motivations?

Now if they proposed a true Inter-Faith project with a church, a synagogue, a buddhist temple and a mosque---with the Board having a member from every faith--that might be acceptable to (more) folks.

All the faiths could share in the expense as well.

The Catholic church wanted to build a place for the nuns near Auschwitz--the jewish folks protested and the Pope listened and agreed to move it somewhere else.

#248 | Posted by kanrei

Deflection.

No response to why they cannot fathom the depth of the hurt and thus the irrational response to the insult.

Show us some compassion if Islam is so compasionate.

Is it only America who should be understanding?

I am only responsible for my own country and how we act. I live in an America of religious freedom and tolerance. If we can stop this today, then we can stop a Temple or Church tomorrow.

The fact that so many "Americans" are skipping happily up the hill of religious intolerance in the name of tolerance scares the shit out of me.

You know if these anti mosque builders would spend half as much energy condemning these Muslims on their own religious beliefs and promoting it then they would be making their G-d happier than raining hatred down on their fellow Humans.

Larry

Deflection.

Not at all. You shoot arrows at them and wonder why they circle the wagons? You try to act like the countries we oppose and wonder why so many stand up and say "no in my country?" That is sad. Really, really sad.

I never realized Saudi Arabia was 100% of the Middle East. Does Iraq, Syria, Lebennon, Iran, Turkey, Israel, and Egypt know about this?

#238 | POSTED BY KANREI

Okay let's check the demos of all those countries...

Iraq: Muslim 97%
Syria: Sunni Muslim 74%, other Muslim (includes Alawite, Druze) 16%
Lebanon: Muslim 59.7% (Shia, Sunni, Druze, Isma'ilite, Alawite or Nusayri)
Iran: Muslim 98% (Shia 89%, Sunni 9%)
Turkey: Muslim 99.8% (mostly Sunni)
Israel: Jewish 76.4%, Muslim 16%
Egypt: Muslim (mostly Sunni) 90%

I'll add a few more too

Yemen: Muslim including Shaf'i (Sunni) and Zaydi (Shia), small numbers of Jewish, Christian, and Hindu
Kuwait: Muslim 85% (Sunni 70%, Shia 30%
United Arab Emirates: Muslim 96% (Shia 16%)

So clearly I need to apologize here for associating Islam and the Middle East. With such diversity, the two clearly have nothing to do with each other.

The fact that so many "Americans" are skipping happily up the hill of religious intolerance in the name of tolerance scares the shit out of me.

#252 | Posted by kanrei

Then show us how it's done. Show us some compassion about the deaths of thousands of people a few blocks away and move the Mosque soemwhere else.

-There you go fuckhead...

You ever notice that it's the wee children and the weak sisters who think that ad hominem helps their point?

Especially when the context of the question and his statement do not support the accusation that he SAID Hamas is not a terrorist organization.

He didn't comment either way. He's a diplomat.

On the other side, I am so proud of our leaders, both political and religious and of all faiths and parties for fighting for freedom of religion and against intolerance. The fact that so many Christians, Jews, and Muslims can come together in support of this renews my faith in the American people.

Then show us how it's done.

I am. So is Corky. So is Larry. So are the religious and political leaders of New York. Maybe you should start acting like an American.

-Now if they proposed a true Inter-Faith project with a church, a synagogue, a buddhist temple and a mosque

American mosques at least, and this proposed one specifically, are open to all faiths.

You ever notice that it's the wee children and the weak sisters who think that ad hominem helps their point?

Earlier in this thread you called me a kid toucher with your Indonesian vacation comment... Good Lord you're a tool.

He didn't comment either way. He's a diplomat.
#257 | POSTED BY CORKY

Its Hamas!! He's not a diplomat, he's a terrorist sympathizer.

They fire rockets into cities and murder civilians... a man like this is not a moderate. A moderate would condemn such activities. No one is saying he can't condemn what Israel does too, just that if he were actually a moderate, he'd have a problem with a Muslim group murdering civilians.

ONE LAST TIME: IT IS NOT BEING BUILT ON THE WTC SITE, BUT BLOCKS AWAY.

#127 | Posted by kanrei

Yeah? How many "blocks away" equal 600 feet?

600 feet is the distance from the WTC to where the mosque is being built.

Show us some compassion if Islam is so compasionate.

#251 | POSTED BY MARTY AT 2010-08-04 02:42 PM | REPLY | FLAG:

Showing compassion is not a requirement of the building permit. They can open any day they want, for any legal reason they want, even if it's on 9/11, and even if the true intent would be to mock America. As long as they are not breaking any laws or inciting others to do so, they can do as they wish. We, as Americans, should see this as plainly evident.

This mosque should not bother anyone. The only symbolic value it has is the value the Muslim-bashers choose to invest it with. Disregard it and it becomes just one more building in the jungle of lower Manhattan.

You ever notice that it's the wee children and the weak sisters who think that ad hominem helps their point?

Posted by Corky

but ignorance, bigotry and politics are more formidable obstacles. (See: Any post by Schizoidicks or, "Schizoid Dick" as we in the family affectionately refer to him.)
Posted by Corky at 04:20 PM |

#262 - AREIAL = AERIEL

America is tolerant. We tolerate everything. We don't always like it, but we put up with it. There have not been wide spread attacks on Muslims in this country, there have been some, but not lots.

We give tolerance, and we expect it in return. New York is standing up and asking, Is there some legal way we can stop this Insult?

The law makers look at the rules and say, no. They have every right to build a Mosque on the land they bought, and they are correct.

BUT, it is STill and Insult from Islam to America. Americans do not like it, and we are having a fit in the streets carying signs. When Islam has a fit, they kill innocent people and claim it is retribution.

Do you see the difference?

If they build the Mosque, them people will not like it and will carry signs outside the building expressing their dislike. They will NOT kill Imams as they come in and out, they will not blow up cars out front, they will peacefully protest, some very loudly.

We ARE Tolerating it and acting according to our laws.

We are ASKING Islam to DEMONSTRATE this so called understanding by moving it some where else.

Do you get that? We don't want you dead, we want you to not dis-honor our dead that people of the Islamic faith Murdered! What is so hard to understand about that?

You see in Christine's arial shots of of ground zero?? How would You know what tyhose other buildings are if they weren't pointed out by someone with intimate details of what went on inside. I mean this whole anti Muslim Mosque building is quite telling at how immature we as a Nation are still even at this late hour 230+ Years of age. Fucked up what it is.

#263 | Posted by somoco

Very true, but not very understanding.

"You know if these anti mosque builders would spend half as much energy condemning these Muslims on their own religious beliefs and promoting it then they would be making their G-d happier than raining hatred down on their fellow Humans."

The main thrust behind this is the 9/11 families. I generally find their proprietary attitude towards ground zero annoying but in this case I think its understandable they're going to be upset and have an emotional reaction. At first I was saying the people behind this mosque are like Fred Phelps but I think that's going a little too far. That they've generally been inconsiderate to the fact that they are dealing with grieving families is fair though.

None of the parties involved handled this well.

-Earlier in this thread you called me a kid toucher with your Indonesian vacation comment... Good Lord you're a tool.

WHOA! Someone's Freudian Slip is showing! Must be guilt, lol. Anything Rush-like you want to tell us about there, Robby?

All I said was that you wouldn't want to vacation in Indonesia as it is Muslim. The rest must have to do with your conscience.

-Its Hamas!! He's not a diplomat, he's a terrorist sympathizer.

There are actually some Jews in Israel who sympathize with plight of the Palestinians and don't go around calling Hamas members terrorists.

Some are, some aren't. They are not even the worst political types in the West Bank.

"I am a peace builder. I will not allow anybody to put me in a position where I am seen by any party in the world as an adversary or as an enemy," Rauf said, insisting that he wants to see peace in Israel between Jews and Arabs."

Well said for someone in his position.

All I said was that you wouldn't want to vacation in Indonesia as it is Muslim.

Yeah, that's what you were saying. God you're fucking pathetic. You can't even be enough of a man to own up to your insults? I was more/less fucking with you on the flagging stuff that you aren't a man, but geez, are you a woman? Its okay if you are, it would explain a lot...

Well said for someone in his position.
#271 | POSTED BY CORKY

Actually it was a pretty stupid thing to say for someone leading the charge to build a mosque at ground zero...

roflmfao!

You said: This is a dead serious question, for all the spouting off Liberals do about peaceful Islam, would any of you honestly vacation in a Muslim nation? Would you take your wives, daughters... what if you were gay or had a gay family member or friend... would you take them?

#89 | Posted by Rob_The_A_Hole

I said: So much for Rob's vacation in Indonesia.

#92 | Posted by Corky

Now, I guess if you say so you may know a lot more about what' you'd do there, but I only referred to Indonesia as being a Muslim nation.

As a matter of fact, I've never heard it being known for what you say it is. Thailand maybe, or one of Rush's fav Caribbean spots, but Indonesia? Never hear that.

New York is standing up and asking, Is there some legal way we can stop this Insult?

No, New York isn't. Ironically, a very small group is trying to stop this. The New York City Council just yesterday voted 8-1 to approve building the Mosque.

Oh, and Rob, no matter how many times you say "on ground zero," it does not change the fact that you are wrong, spreading a lie, and adding to the chaos of this issue and not adding any facts to it.

I said: So much for Rob's vacation in Indonesia

And why would I, someone here this whole time trashing Muslims even plan for a vacation in Indonesia? Must have been some other reason you were going for there...

I'm not flagging your post Corky, don't worry its not going to get dumped. There is no reason for you to be so defensive about your little insult. This dance you're doing is embarrassing for everyone.

Oh, and Rob, no matter how many times you say "on ground zero,"

Actually that was the first time I said it. i consider that entire area Ground Zero... I lived in Newark in 2001. Watched the whole thing play out from on top of our parking garage. The whole fucking area was wrecked.

No they're not being built in the actual outline of the building, but you acting like its a huge distance away is not really truthful either.

"There are actually some Jews in Israel who sympathize with plight of the Palestinians and don't go around calling Hamas members terrorists."

I believe you but they must be real idiots. Regardless how you feel about Israel, Hamas is a terror group. Their stated goal is not liberation of the Palestinian people but rather the destruction of Israel. Huge difference. Plus, their tactics are just to kill people randomly, which has never, ever led to a nation just disappearing. They know that. So really their goal just seems to be murder.

I really can't fathom how being pro-Hamas is seen as a pro-Palestinian position to be honest. They're a giant stone tied around the necks of all Palestinians.

#276

Rob plays spinmeister. How pathetic.

Lots of people vacation in Indonesia, and it's Muslim, which was the retort to your query about who would want to vacation in a Muslim country.

Nothing to do with you, just like almost everything else.

That you would take it that way is rather Freudian, however.

#262 - AREIAL = AERIEL

#266 | Posted by CalifChris

I think you mean "aerial" Miss "I Used To Be A Legal Sexretary So Everything Has To Be Perfect"

No they're not being built in the actual outline of the building, but you acting like its a huge distance away is not really truthful either.

I have always stated it was 2 blocks from Ground Zero. In what world is 2 blocks "acting like its a huge distance away?" I have said it is not on it, or next to it. It cannot be seen from Ground Zero nor can Ground Zero be seen from it.

#275 | Posted by kanrei

Yes, a small group is asking the law makers (city council) who have said no, correctly. What about the rest? Just putting blinders on to the rest of my post #267?

- They're a giant stone tied around the necks of all Palestinians.

Agreed. They seem about as bad about their political choices as a TP'er in Alaska.

"So why permit a Mosque of all things to be built on the WTC site like a conquering flag?"

The amount of misinformed people on this issue is staggering and tells me the news is reporting fear, not facts.
ONE LAST TIME: IT IS NOT BEING BUILT ON THE WTC SITE, BUT BLOCKS AWAY.
#127 | Posted by kanrei at 2010-08-04 11:33 AM

Blessed be.

this is all a spit in the face of americans everywhere...they said this morning that it was an 'interfaith' building..bullshit...there are no plans for a synogogue or a christian church..only some sort of christian room...but nonetheless...its a joke and the mayor of new york is either a fool or a politically correct hack.
#129 | Posted by afkabl2 at 2010-08-04 11:36 AM

Wait, did you read kanrei and not believe him, or just ignored it? It turns out he is correct, this story is being hyped quite purposefully. He did post that all caps, perhaps your browser is refudiating the loud data?:]

"If you have a hate agenda clap your hands" [clap, clap]

Nothing to do with you, just like almost everything else.

If it was nothing to do with me why would you say:

So much for Rob's vacation in Indonesia.
#92 | POSTED BY CORKY AT 2010-08-04 11:09 AM

I asked if any liberals would go to a Muslim nation... and you replied with that. Its clearly the insult we both know it is.

That you would take it that way is rather Freudian, however.

#279 | POSTED BY CORKY

No, its not Freudian at all and I'm guessing you have no idea what that phrase even means.

I am honestly embarrassed for you... no idea why you're trying to dance away from this insult unless you think everyone is a little snitch rat like yourself and you're trying to build a defense if it got dumped.

I read it Marty, but it was irrelevant to teh issue. You are trying to justify your being intolerant based on how you perceive others are acting. Children use the excuse "but they did it first;" adults understand that we are only responsible for our own actions. What "they" do or did I could care less. It is what I am doing that matters to me.

How funny!

The only time no one will insult Rob, he has to make one up on his own. I don't care about a fucking dump, punkinhead, but I've never referred to anyone here as such, even you.

That you insist on making shit up instead of arguing the facts only shows how shallow you are.

Maybe the building should be tagged with anti muslime cartoons. Perhaps prophet mohammad molesting boys.

I don't care about a fucking dump, punkinhead, but I've never referred to anyone here as such, even you

Yeah, you clearly do. You go around flagging anyone and everyone as abusive/offensive tattling to rcade, and then you go and make an insult like that. Now that you're getting called on it you're trying to spin away from it.

Like I said, I'm not dickless dude, I don't flag people like you. So you don't have to be scared of getting a dump, you're safe.

Sad part is, it wasn't even that funny of an insult...

#288 | Posted by bph320

If you actually have a case you'd like to make, posting that sort of odious crap does nothing to either bolster your cause or give anyone reason to accord you credibility.

My America is obviously gone. The same people who deeply fear us basing our laws on the laws of other nations are justifying their hatred and intolerance with the actions of other nations. I thought Iran was wrong if they didn't allow a Temple or Church to be built somewhere. How is us acting like them making us any less wrong?

-You go around flagging anyone and everyone as abusive/offensive tattling to rcade

Mother Wobby, Psychic at Large!

Careful, he knows which key you stroke!

Sad part is that if I HAD meant that, it would be insulting to those people everywhere.

#286 | Posted by kanrei

I'm not being intolerant. I am asking the question, if Islam and this man are trying to promote respect and understanding, then they need to show some.

If you cannot win an argument on the merits, then resort to name calling. It is effective, but more childish than anything I have stated.

Be well, I must leave now, I am tired of arguing with a brick wall.

buy the building next door and open a tittie bar.

Mother Wobby, Psychic at Large!

wow, you can't even admit to flagging people when its obviously you.

Impressively dickless...

If you cannot win an argument on the merits, then resort to name calling. It is effective, but more childish than anything I have stated.

I have won this argument on the merits and only the merits. I have countered every paranoid intolerant ranting excuse people have tried here with logic and reason. All day long and did not call anyone any names.

I guess when the facts can win, try the "victim" card.

So but let's document your extreme knowledge of pedophiles going to Indonesia. I've never heard that about Indonesia.

Where do you get your information? EIB Network?

#262 - AREIAL = AERIEL

#266 | Posted by CalifChris

I think you mean "aerial" Miss "I Used To Be A Legal Sexretary So Everything Has To Be Perfect"

#280 | Posted by Gimme_a_Scotch at 2010-08-04 03:16 PM

You got me, Gimme.

But "Miss whatever" takes no responsibility for any typos she makes prior to Noon and her second cup of coffee. lol

buy the building next door and open a tittie bar.

Posted by bruceaz at 2010-08-04 03:30 PM |

Rudy changed the zoning laws in New York. There used to be porn shops and strip clubs all around the area, but he wanted more tourists to the area and made it so they are not allowed.

Corky I'm not going to play you're, "I wasn't making a joke/insult" game. Its just really embarrassing at this point.

Hell you can't even admit you flag people to get them dumped, no matter what I say you're not all of a sudden grow a pair and man up to what you were/are doing.

So funny. The A Hole posts something stupid, gets a Dump, then whines for days on end about getting a Dump.

It's no one's fault but your own.

I have won this argument on the merits and only the merits.

Declaring victory is rarely a good idea. This thread said it was a moderate behind this Ground Zero Mosque, and he's clearly not.

I flag people! Abusive ever since Rcade suggested we do it when stalked. I have stalkers and am not afraid to admit I flag and I even write Rcade when I can't handle it myself. So what? 99% of what I flag as abusive gets ignored for the most part and rightly so. It doesn't matter IF you flag it, RCADE still decides if it is dumpable or not.

So funny. The A Hole posts something stupid, gets a Dump, then whines for days on end about getting a Dump.
It's no one's fault but your own.

#301 | POSTED BY CORKY

I'm not saying it wasn't dump worthy... most of what I said is. You're the one that flagged it and others (like the one from this thread).

You know you're a fucking rat and you know nobody likes a rat which is why you're not admitting to it, but you also haven't denied it yet either...

I don't care about getting dumps or suspended... I just like pointing out that you're the little tattletale bitch who is doing the flagging around here.

It doesn't matter IF you flag it, RCADE still decides if it is dumpable or not.

#303 | POSTED BY KANREI

Completely disagree... I don't like snitches.

Stalkers are totally different. But if someone throws an insult out and your first move is to start flagging, then you're a fucking tattletale.

Rob,

I "declared victory" because he did. I was playing his childish game. I have not called him one name, but he accuses me of it and says he is done posting here.

You know I don't play the "I win" game generally.

#303 | Posted by kanrei

How intolerant of you.

-I'm not going to play you're, "I wasn't making a joke/insult" game

Translation: "I've never heard that about Indonesia either, but I was looking for some excuse for calling you a "fucktard".

Truly, truly pathetic.

But if someone throws an insult out and your first move is to start flagging, then you're a fucking tattletale.

Not my first move, or even second. I did not start flagging Skizz until he kept saying I was a Muslim. I have had 3 people today believe I was one because of his shit.

How intolerant of you.

#307 | Posted by gavaster at 2010-08-04 03:40 PM

Not at all. Jokes and online attacks are one thing, personal attacks are something different. You hit me and I hit back. That is not intolerance, that is defense.

"I've never heard that about Indonesia either"

Yeah, nobody has ever heard of sex tourism in 3rd world south east asian countries...

You're a fucking moron.

Flag away Snitch... Hi Rogers!

#304
lmao he's not only psychic, but he's a gnostic.

How does Rob know who flags his posts? He knows because he knows!

He also knows how to turn a halfway decent thread into a shitpile, as long as it is about Rob..... amazing talent, that.

. I did not start flagging Skizz until he kept saying I was a Muslim.

Totally different... stalkers here are bullshit, and I've certainly had my run in with them here and had to deal with that.

I did not start flagging Skizz until he kept saying I was a Muslim. I have had 3 people today believe I was one because of his shit
Not that there's anything wrong with that.

How does Rob know who flags his posts?
#312 | POSTED BY CORKY

Because every dump/delete I've gotten over the past few months has been in conversations with you or Tosser.

Also you haven't fucking denied it...

He also knows how to turn a halfway decent thread into a shitpile

Sorry I'll ask your mom to leave...

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Posted by bruceaz at 2010-08-04 03:44 PM
There is if you are not one. We all know what he meant when he said it. He threw words at me like "terrorist apologist," questioned if I was American and my patriotism, and kept at it. He was trying to portray Islam as evil on Earth, all Muslims as evil- so what was he implying about me when he said it?

And on that hilarious note, I've got to hit the gym...

Later fucktards.

BTW I really don't have a problem with building a Mosque there. You can't tell people they can't build a house of worship on private property in America... Anyone should be allowed to do it even Muslims.

You can't tell people they can't build a house of worship on private property in America... Anyone should be allowed to do it even Muslims.

That is all I have been saying for days.

Ah so, now Rob plays the "your Mom" card!

To be expected after "snitch' and "tattletale" one supposes.

Isn't 3rd grade class out by now?

Ah, I see it is.

What's ironic also is rwingers wanting to the ebil gubmint to tell property owners what they can build on an already zoned site.

Posted by Corky at 2010-08-04 02:38 PM

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Kanrei,that's a Seinfeldism,equivalent to an old jewish saying,right?
Anyway you guys beat this horse to death,thought a little levity would be ok after 300 posts.SOM

#322 | Posted by bruceaz at 2010-08-04 03:52 PM |

I caught that after I sent it. I have been under attack from so many places today, I was just in defense mode. You are right: levity is needed here.

That is all I have been saying for days.

#318 | POSTED BY KANREI

And its the right argument. You can't have the government telling people they can't worship on private property... pretty sure there are some decent amendments in the constitution about that.

This just annoys people because he's clearly not a "moderate" and its Muslims and 9/11...

#310 | Posted by kanrei

Just doing my part to fan the flames. lol

I've read most of this thread. I agree with you that it is a property rights issue at hand. They can build wherever they like, this is Am-Rica.

On the other hand, I think you're wrong to pretend that those living in NYC have no justification for being upset and protesting this mosque. Yes you haven't said it in plain English, but it is implied through your statements. Americans reserves the right to peacefully protest, for any reason.

One more thing on tolerance. Tolerance has become synonymous with spineless. So anytime I see someone stating they are being tolerant a red flag goes up in my mind. I'm not interested in being a doormat in the name of tolerance. I think two people can have radically different views, state them publicly, and defend them vehemontly and still be tolerant...now I'm venturing into a soapbox issue that deviates from this thread. The end.

Ah so, now Rob plays the "your Mom" card!

I've been playing your mom all day where are you?

You still haven't denied flagging.

On the other hand, I think you're wrong to pretend that those living in NYC have no justification for being upset and protesting this mosque. Yes you haven't said it in plain English, but it is implied through your statements. Americans reserves the right to peacefully protest, for any reason.

I agree. The other point I keep driving home is the misinformation those protesting are using.

"On Ground Zero" is being said a lot and it is not true. Many people upset over this are basing it on the Mosque being "ON GROUND ZERO" I would protest that too, but a few blocks away? Come on.

I flagged that one, mah bitch.

Tolerance has become synonymous with spineless.

I disagree. I see tolerance as being very strong for it takes strength to tolerate something you don't agree with. It is pretty easy to tolerate something you do.

I flagged that one, mah bitch.

#328 | Posted by Corky

You look like the flagman at Daytona lately.

I flagged that one, mah bitch.
#328 | POSTED BY CORKY

LOL

Today under the DR bigtop, come see the self flagellating, flagrant, flaming, flagless, flagging flogger....... CORKY!

#327 | Posted by kanrei

Aw, come on now. If protestors were honest they'd look stupid. You'd see union workers with signs like, "I'm lazy, I have a crack habit to support, and I want more money." Unfortunately, honesty is not a trait most humans exemplify or aspire to, neither is self education.

Most people want to be told what to think about a certain issue rather than do the research themselves, thus the mass amounts of misinformation on every side of any issue. We find someone who thinks like we do and let them do the grunt work for us so we can pursue things that actually interest us and still pretend to be in the know on all things politically(our economical, educational, etc, etc.)

our = or

Sheepdip. Just what we need to cover the Odeur De A Hole.

Nice thread Sully, Kanrei.... too bad it became just another of Rob's shitpiles.

Sorry Corky... You should be careful, you know frequent flagging can lead to flag dysfunction.

;p

Just playin man.

#329 | Posted by kanrei

That depends on the issue. Some groups of people in our county wanted a vote on the permission to sale beer, wine, etc., which was banned until last year. To allow a vote they had to have X number of signatures. I would have signed the petition(but didn't) to allow the vote, but I would have still voted no. Some would say I was intolerant, but tolerance is really a matter of where you draw the line. You could say that to truely be tolerant I would sign the petition, vote yes, and then do business with those that endorse it.

"I see tolerance as being very strong"

Case by case scenario. Where the majority approves of homosexuality are you stronger if you tolerate it or stand against it? I'd say to stand against it. Vice versa, if the majority disapproves of homosexuality it would be a position of strength to advocate tolerance. Tolerance and strength is subject to the individual and cirumstances.

"I see tolerance as being very strong for it takes strength to tolerate something you don't agree with."

If you're coming from a place where you believe the other person is annoying but not doing anything wrong, I agree.

If claiming to be tolerant is easier than standing up for yourself in a situation where you are being wronged, then not so much.

(I'm not accusing you of the latter, BTW. In this case I understand that you don't find the mosque to be objectionable at all even if I disagree with a shitload of things you've said here.)

just another of Rob's shitpiles.
#336 | POSTED BY CORKY AT 2010-08-04 04:12 PM | REPLY | FLAG: Corky's Mom

LMAO... even if I'm suspended... so worth it!

Where the majority approves of homosexuality are you stronger if you tolerate it or stand against it? I'd say to stand against it.

I would say to tolerate it. I am not going to, pardon my French, screw a man even if they gave winning lottery tickets with each act of sodomy. It is not something I have any interest in, so I am not threatened by gay people and see them as people. I do not mean to imply you are threatened at all BTW. To me, it is not something I have a right to have a voice in because it is something I am never going to have to do.

even if I disagree with a shitload of things you've said here.

DIsagreeing is fine and even good Sully. The debates here are very Talmudic in nature in that there is rarely a right or wrong answer, but we all learn through our defense of our points.

You and I walk up to the line often, but we never cross it with one another. I will debate with you any day.

To further my point Gav,

I am personally anti-abortion, but I am pro-choice 100%. I would never consider abortion as an option, but that is a choice I made. It is not for me to make that choice for anyone else. It is not my right. Not being gay, I have no interest in if they marry or not.

-Corky's Mom

lol, what an infantile douchebag you are.

You must be so proud.... not to mention your Mom.

But it's always been the same here. Posters who aren't bright enough to keep up with the arguments adults make resort to, "Yo' Momma" insults.

Nothing new, just same tired old whiny baby stuff.

LIBERAL HYPOCRICY HISTORICAL MOMENT

yes thats right retort fans...another installment of that current events rockem sockem addition to your daily blogging experiance..and all right here and
FREE FREE FREE FREE

close your eyes and lets get in the way back machine

" those damn jews are building those apartments"...corky

"yeah thats right,..who do those jewboys think they are..building those apartments in a city they control..KILL THEM all."..assorted posters..

"israel CANT DO THAT"...okay so its paraphrased...BARRY OBAMA

and BACK TO TODAY...

the mosque in new york
" thats a local issue and the white house will not get involved."

fuckin hyprocrites.

sorry corkmiester...didnt mean to single you out...

I like the two men that asked the Iman if they could get married in the Mosque after it's built, and his response was no, and we executed gays.

Thank god these Muslims are moderate.

Walk into that mosque with a picture of the Prophet Mohammed on your tee shirt and you'll soon find out how moderate and tolerant they are.

#343 | Posted by kanrei

I understand your point of it takes strength to tolerate others and maintain your own position. My point is I think for the majority, tolerance has become the lack of a will to stand up for what they really believe. For a few tolerance is strength, but for most tolerance is simply insecurity. Say what you mean, and mean what you say. That's all I'm sayin. A strong America depends on strong individuals with firm(educated) opinions.

We disagree on the abortion and gay marriage. I think you lose your choice to/to not carry a child when you engage in sex and homo. is a mental disorder contrary to nature. We can discuss those on another thread.

and speaking of hypocricy.

obama says this is a local issue...but goes into convulsions when israel builds apartments in jerusulum..

no better look at where his priorities lie.

So, the moderate muslim's want a towering presence and loud speakers droaning over the whole which was the trade center? Like the other conquests of the faith have their monoliths over sites of previous victories?

And these are considered moderate?

Fool!

Our so called, Democrat run, news media are behind the Mosque as well.

"Thru out history, when Muslims defeat an enemy they build a Mosque on the site of their victims holy site.

The name of this mosque is taken from the name of a mosque built on top of a former christian church in Spain after they killed the christians and converted the place to Islam."

#54 | Posted by Marty at 2010-08-04 10:39 AM | Reply | Flag

Hail Marty who obviously owns a fucking history book! I've said before & still think it's tantamount to banging a dude's wife in his own bed. It's like this, if if looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, waddles like a duck, chances are its a fucking duck!

I find it funny that people not only tolerate but DEFEND the extremism that Islam encourages & celebrates and indoctrinates their children with but has the vapors over the similar "extremisms" in Christianity real or imagined. You CANNOT & SHOULD NOT negotiate or try to reason with despots of any kind. No matter the spirit in which something is offered or accepted it is seen as WEAKNESS! If you don't believe it, borrow Marty's history book!

Hatebiggov I need your email addy.

Hatebiggov-

So, you embrace bin Laden's goal of creating a religious war between Islam and the West, and are willing to rebuke those moderate Muslims, enemies of bin Laden, who wish to build a community center open to all (not a mosque) more than two blocks from a place where dozens of Muslims and thousands of real people (non-muslims, in your world)) were murdered?

I find it funny that people not only tolerate but DEFEND the extremism that HATEBIGGOV encourages & celebrates and indoctrinates their children with...

finding a moderate muslim is like finding a unicorn.

The terrorists were Muslims sent by Muslims
we no longer use the terrorists word it is now militants