Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs
Monday, August 02, 2010

"The only people who are going to buy it are going to be very rich people who are going to park it outside their townhouse for ostentatious show of how virtuous they are while they drive around in their Cadillac Escalade," claims columnist Charles Krauthammer.

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I know that you've got to start somewhere, but how many Americans are going to shell out the $ for this right now, in this tight uncertain economy? I think that the Nissan Leaf, at $32K, is still too expensive, but it's still more palatable. Yes, I know, there's a tax credit. But wouldn't people right now still want to buy a 35 mpg gas car for $20K if they had to make a choice, unless they have plenty of disposable income, and wanted this as a second car or a status symbol?

Chevy is misguided in its pricing, though I understand the lease cost will be a little more more reasonable. But leases suck, especially if you travel any reasonable distance, like most people, and have to deal with the mileage charges at the end.

Well he has made his prediction. I think the Volt could do fabulously well...but we will have to let the market (and a $7,500 tax credit) decide.

And reasonably priced too at just over the average yearly wage of the American worker.

A new car was $2000 in 1960

Average wages were twice that

"Volt uses a range-extending gas generator that produces enough energy to power it for hundreds of miles on a single tank of gas."

Comparing the Leaf to the Volt is really apples and oranges. You can drive a Volt on a long trip without stopping, you can't do that with a Leaf.

8 K over nearest rivals price?

Not good.

8 year 100,000 mile warranty?

Good.

A disaster?

It aint even out yet.

Waaaay to early to predict.

Kraphammer is just being his usual snake in the weeds self here.

Be Well.


8 K over nearest rivals price?

Not good.


The 8K doesn't matter...the government is giving a $7,500 credit. It will sell well in the US, maybe not so much in your parts without the credit.

And for the physics people:

FTA: There is an onboard gas engine that acts as a generator to constantly replenish a battery pack.

So a gas engine is replenishing the battery? How much more efficient is replenishing the battery with a gas engine than having the gas engine power the car?

The Volt is $15,000 more than the Prius, even AFTER the tax credit, and poorly designed besides. So when you do the math, you realize that as a buyer, you'll never make up the difference in fuel savings. It also requires premium unleaded gasoline, though don't really know why.

Maybe later versions will come way down in price. Who knows. But that's only likely if sales are strong. As it stands now, you lose money forever by buying the Government Motors product.

The second significant aspect is that the gasoline-driven generator engine can easily be replaced with an engine that runs on E85, diesel, bio-diesel, pure ethanol or even a hydrogen fuel cell. People would then be able to chose their engine based on fuel availability and prices in their region.

www.treehugger.com

That is actually pretty cool, even if it turns out not to be cost effective by someone doing a break even analysis. But break even analysis doesn't take into account smugness, which is actually very valuable to some people.

"Irony: Obama in Detroit (30% unemployement rate): "we are moving in the right direction!"

theblogprof.blogspot.com

Only in ObamaNation.

Actually, according to the CBC, Canada will have credits up to $10,000, but:


In an effort to achieve that, McGuinty announced "rebates of between $4,000 and $10,000 for plug-in hybrid and battery electric vehicles purchased after July 1, 2010.

So the Volt will still have the same gap compared to other vehicles.

www.cbc.ca

He is right that this car will probably mostly be purchased as a status symbol.

He is wrong in saying "This is a classic example of what happens when the political and ideological desires of an administration are imposed on a private company"

I have been following the development of the Volt and early as late 2006/early 2007 the car was being targeted for a 2010 release with an expected price over 40K.

Sorry Charlie but you can't blame O for this one. This plan was brought to you by the same brains that ran GM into the ground in the first place.

More people should ride scooters. 80 mpg

More people should ride scooters. 80 mpg

#15 | Posted by jackass

Yes-sirree Mister jackass I fully agree with that sentiment and they should ride them scooters (and wheelchairs too) down the middle of the road it don't bother this bib overall wearing quixotically liberal weight-challenged farm-boy none

Larry "Pass the Cheetos" Mohr

#16 | Posted by Gimme_a_Scotch

Are you trying to kill him?! Larry will have an aneurysm if he comes to this thread. I pray that on Larry's first day in college, a morbidly obese kid doesn't zip his wheelchair next to where Larry is sitting.

A Vespa will do 60 mph. If you have a 10 mile commute to work that is perfect. I have a Motorcycle that I love to ride during the summer.

So in addition to all the other subjects he doesn't know anything about but opines about regularly, Krauthammer's now added the automobile business? He must have a record number of points built up in Holiday Inn Express's Priority Rewards program.

I believe the problem is it only goes 40 miles on a charge and uses premium fuel. Weren't some stations phasing out premium fuel?

I think a lot of the vespa's have a top speed of 50 mph.

I want to drive a couch.

That 'great' tax credit is paid for by all of us (52-53%) who pay federal income taxes - so those not buying one of these is subsidizing the 'poor'..

You can do much better buying a VW diesel, they cost less, are low maintenance and get killer gas mileage.

They have to start somewhere, and if enough people buy the volt it will get better and cheaper.

I want a diesel Fiesta

I want a diesel Fiesta

#25 | Posted by American1st

I agree with you. And, I think ford may be underestimating the U.S. market for diesel cars. With a compelling promotional campaign I think America could be convinced that the Fiesta makes more sense than many Hybrids.

when the government makes a car .....

en.wikipedia.org

"That 'great' tax credit is paid for by all of us (52-53%) who pay federal income taxes"

It comes out of the same pot as the SS money; you could just as easily say it's paid by 100% of folks who earn wages. It's a pretense to suggest payroll taxes aren't federal taxes on par with income taxes: most workers will pay more in payroll taxes over their lifetimes than income taxes, especially when you count the amounts paid on their behalf.

isn't krauthammer paralyzed?

can't someone find a sty full of hungry killer boars and give him the hannibal lecter treatment?

I pray that on Larry's first day in college, a morbidly obese kid doesn't zip his wheelchair next to where Larry is sitting.

#17 | Posted by butthole_surfer at 2010-07-31 06:10 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

I don't care if they zip past Me on sidewalks nor do I care if they zip past Me in hallways cause THAT'S WHERE THOSE SCOOTERS BELONG not however in the middle of THE CITY STREETS that is what pisses Me off to no end. They do NOT belong on city streets county roads and the like. Just like those fucking ATV's driving along on the County roads just tyhis past wednesday evening. One had a damned CHILD on the back with Her Father driving it down the road. I don't particularly care to get behind a slow moving bicycle nor do I care too much about a Horse and buggy. But G-d damned it not a motorized wheelchair/scooter nor an ATV. Pisses me the clean the smooth off.

Larry

PS for GAS Do not EVER sign My name to Your words. NEVER. You want to make a statement great more power to You. Just don't put My name to it. You capisce??

Krauthammer is a sad sack.Sorry for what happened to him but so what

They do NOT belong on city streets county roads and the like. Just like those fucking ATV's driving along on the County roads

Larry,
I'm sorry I made fun of you going back to school in the past.Since then I've paid more attention to your posts.You are quite educated in constitutional law and what's been going on.How is it that these little things bother you so much.

Because they tie up traffic as well as they are a safety hazzard on roadways. Many of them lack reflectors at the very least nor headlights nor taillights.

Larry

Share the road Larry,Life is good buddy,ease up.Good luck,all well with school.

"I have been following the development of the Volt and early as late 2006/early 2007 the car was being targeted for a 2010 release with an expected price over 40K."

I was wondering about that very thing--it seemed to me that I had heard the Volt name before Obama came into office.

+++++

Larry, scooters do NOT belong on sidewalks, just as bicycles do not belong on sidewalks. If you want to argue for a scooter lane, like a bike lane, or for scooterists (?) making way appropriately, fine, but they do not belong on sidewalks. (Yes, I feel just as strongly about my point as you do about yours. : ) ) That said, I understand your frustrations.

+++++

Krauthammer is paralyzed? That would explain his bizarre posture, if not his general undead appearance.

+++++

And rwers, are you listening? One of the "great" conservative columnists/talking heads just said that the bailout was NOT socialism. Granted, he seems to imply that production of the Volt is, but he just knocked down one of your talking points, from YOUR side. I love it.

"Krauthammer is paralyzed? That would explain his bizarre posture, if not his general undead appearance."

Even worse, he's a board certified psychiatrist.

In what way is that a problem, Doc?

"In what way is that a problem, Doc?"

I think Doc believes that anyone with that much education should be a certified, card holding, leftist/socialist/progressive stalking the corridors of academia and not be publicly spouting conservative "propaganda"...right, Doc?

I dunno, Jest. I'm THINKING something else, but let's allow Doc to answer the question, eh? I'm betting it's something very different from that.

"I dunno, Jest. I'm THINKING something else, but let's allow Doc to answer the question, eh?"

I'm just pulling Doc's chain. He's used to it. :-)

"Quantifying just how much taxpayer money will have been wasted on the hastily developed Volt is no easy feat. Start with the $50 billion bailout (without which none of this would have been necessary), add $240 million in Energy Department grants doled out to G.M. last summer, $150 million in federal money to the Volt's Korean battery supplier, up to $1.5 billion in tax breaks for purchasers and other consumer incentives, and some significant portion of the $14 billion loan G.M. got in 2008 for "retooling" its plants, and you've got some idea of how much taxpayer cash is built into every Volt."

Edward Niedermeyer is the editor of the Web site The Truth About Cars
www.watchdogonwallstreet.com

I was wondering about that very thing--it seemed to me that I had heard the Volt name before Obama came into office.

Yup. The Volt has been in the works since 2007:

www.newsweek.com

How is $41,000 for an electric car ridiculous when SUVs are priced that high and suck up an obscene amount of gas?

I believe the problem is it only goes 40 miles on a charge and uses premium fuel. Weren't some stations phasing out premium fuel?

#20 | Posted by mysterytoy

The Volt uses interesting technology. A very small gas engine kicks in to recharge the batteries when they run low and kicks off when they're charged, allowing for extended distance driving. Personally, I'd feel better knowing I could drive any distance without having to wait a few hours for the batteries to recharge.

Here's a Motor Trend video of a reporter taking one for a test drive:

www.youtube.com

A green slot car, HO scale, made of plastic and glue. A wind-up toy. A piece of crap compared to our American cars of the past.
This sort of downsized surrender to a radical ideology is an embarassment to America.

Diablo, you do realize that the cars of the past don't work in the modern economy, right? I mean, I love boats with fins on the asphalt as much as the next guy, but have you been paying attention for the last 30 years? Gas crisis? High cost? We can't live this way anymore. You noticed that the Hummer is dead, right?

And American cars have been crap compared to the Japanese for quite some time...

And I rather like its look. My dad (age 69) would agree with you on the love of old cars and distaste for the look of new, but he would agree with me on the cost issue. Interesting that an old Republican can think that way...

A piece of crap compared to our American cars of the past.

Yeah, I'm nostalgic for those wonderful old deathtraps. It's so much worse to have cars whose occupants can walk away from a crash, among numerous other benefits.

"The Volt is $15,000 more than the Prius, even AFTER the tax credit, and poorly designed besides."

So now RisR adds auto engineering to the list of things he pretends to know something about.
I read up on the Leaf, on Nissan's own web site and they are vague about many details about the car. One interesting detail was that if you run the A/C or heater the range (100 miles) will be significantly reduced. Here in Florida you run the A/C so you would not get anywhere near 100 mile range. Americans shouldn't be so quick to judge our own car company's offerings negatively just because the cynics among us act as though they really know what the hell they are talking about, most simply don't.

Will the 2010 Volkswagen Golf TDI Be Diesel's Biggest Winner?

VW thinks up to 30 percent of Golf buyers will go for the oil-burner option, just like 30 percent of Jetta buyers and an amazing 50 percent of Jetta Sportwagen buyers.

In part, that's because VW has sold hundreds of thousands of diesels in the US, starting way back in 1978. And unlike Mercedes-Benz, the other traditional diesel vendor, Volkswagen's diesels are actually affordable by real people. Not a single Benz diesel stickers at less than $40,000.

www.greencarreports.com

No VW is affordable by real people. I mean, I wish. But I couldn't get a used VW in my price range last year. Bought a Toyota instead. VWs used to be affordable... Twenty years ago...

Jetta Takes on Prius: Toyota Prius vs. VW Jetta TDI Diesel

Interesting, PA, but I'm not in the market for a new car anyway--not even a used car this recent. We have two Toyotas, both four years old or more. We did extensive searches across our region--and the Toyota was the most affordable good car we could get. By the time we can afford to buy new, I expect the market will have changed a great deal.

Krauthammer is a creep.

"Diablo, you do realize that the cars of the past don't work in the modern economy, right? I mean, I love boats with fins on the asphalt as much as the next guy, but have you been paying attention for the last 30 years? Gas crisis? High cost? We can't live this way anymore."

Allow us to drill and build more refineries, get rid of the stupid gas-guzzler taxes and fuel-efficiency laws and we certainly could live that way. You could also build more nuke plants for the Volt crowd to recharge their mattel toys as well. I remember the dire warnings in the 70's that we would be out of oil by the 90's. The environmental crowd is the new socialist vanguard. Full of crap all the time and praised for it.

Ooookay, Diablo. Pretty clear where you stand.

I'm not cool with ripping up the earth more, nor does deep-water drilling appear to be a good idea. I see pursuing ALL forms of energy at the same time as a good thing.

Are you an oil scientist? I'm not. But it sure doesn't look like it will last forever. Regardless, I'm in no power to allow or not allow, so your plea sent my way does no good.

How much more efficient is replenishing the battery with a gas engine than having the gas engine power the car?

People I know with a Prius get about 48 MPG around town. The closest I've ever come to that is the low 30's, and that was in a Honda Civic, which is smaller than a Prius. I'm going with "it's between 50% and 100% more efficient." There could be some efficiencies from regenerative braking too; I have no idea if those technologies are in place in any of these vehicles.

Consider the Diesel locomotive. It burns diesel fuel to power an electric generator, which turns the wheels. This is necessary because a diesel engine itself would not generate enough torque for the load. Electric motors are good at delivering torque at any RPM, unlike gas and diesel engines which have a "power band" and a "torque band" at certain RPM ranges. This is also why big trucks have so many gears, so they can consistently apply torque across the range of speeds from stopped to cruising. I wonder if Krauthammer has nasty things to say about Diesel locomotives... LOL!

"How much more efficient is replenishing the battery with a gas engine than having the gas engine power the car?"

Since this has been incorrectly answered I must point out that an internal combustion engine is ~1/3 efficient while electric is >9/10 efficient.

It's a wash. Especially if a lot of days it's only driven 40 miles.

Now if you used a hydrogen fuel cell instead of an engine the efficiency becomes much better.

Soon battery range will be ~300 miles and one imagines battery exchange stations could appear with their own solar/wind recharging systems.

We chose a Leaf for our local needs.

"How much more efficient is replenishing the battery with a gas engine than having the gas engine power the car?"

Since this has been incorrectly answered I must point out that an internal combustion engine is ~1/3 efficient while electric is >9/10 efficient.

It's a wash. Especially if a lot of days it's only driven 40 miles.

It would be a wash if it were the same engine in both cars. It's not. My Civic put out about 90 BHP, a Prius engine about half that.

Hmmm... Okay, let's try this.

The engines themselves operate about the same efficiency, but one vehicle is notably more efficient than the other, because of how the engine is put to use.

Happy?

See, this is what happens when you use words like "engine" and "efficiency" around a physicist. They think you're talking about thermodynamics, when you're really asking about miles per gallon.

Unless, of course, you are really asking about thermodynamic efficiency, in which case it's unavoidably less efficient to store the energy output from the engine as potential in a battery, due to entropy.

Isn't this fun?

Larry, scooters do NOT belong on sidewalks, just as bicycles do not belong on sidewalks. If you want to argue for a scooter lane, like a bike lane, or for scooterists (?) making way appropriately, fine, but they do not belong on sidewalks. (Yes, I feel just as strongly about my point as you do about yours. : ) ) That said, I understand your frustrations.

#35 | Posted by pragmatist at 2010-08-01 09:49 AM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

YESSSSSSSSSSSSS Scooters belong on the sidewalk. That is what they are fcr!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

www.thescooterstore.com

Krauthamer is a diaster, period.

Krauthamer is a disaster, period.

~Ichiro

Agreed!

In fact, Spud would go further...

Krauthamer is a disaster EXCLAMATION MARK!

/fixt.

^_^

Well and truly gone now.

Be Well.


""This is a classic example of what happens when the political and ideological desires of an administration are imposed on a private company...It's not how many jobs you create or even save, it's can you sell a product in the market that will make a profit? Otherwise, it's a farce."

WOW...so Chevy researched, designed and built this vehicle since President Obama took office?

No? Then the above quote simply shows what a political hack Krauthummer is.

I don't give a shit when Chevy designed it.

The fact is this: GM was about to go bankrupt until this administration seized the company with tax-payer dollars and is now using tax-payer dollars to highly subsidize a product that it owns. Am I the only one who recognizes the conflict-of-interests here?

The Volt has the same problems as other electrics: Long re-charge times, a loss of power as the batteries run low, environmental nightmares when the defunct batteries need to be disposed of, high cost, etc.

The Volt gets around the lack of range issue by installing a small gas engine. So, it's essentially a hybrid that uses more battery and less gas power than the typical hybrid.

Why mess around with this crap right now?

Diesels offer amazing mileage with great torque and diesels outlast internal-combustion, hybrid and electric motors usually by well over 100,000 miles.

Like the EV1 before it, the Volt will fail because it is too expensive, too heavily subsidized (a fact that pisses some people off) and too impractical on a number of fronts.

But, this is part of why GM was going bankrupt in the first place.

#59: Larry, I thought you meant scooter as in Vespa, not as in motorized wheelchair-type thingy. I agree that the latter belongs on the sidewalk. There's a guy who tools all around my town on one, and he rides on the sidewalks. I have never seen anyone ride the "vehicle" you linked on a city street or even country road.

We have a VW diesel bought this year and it is the second best car I ever owned. The best car ever owned IS my Geo metro 1 liter (62 MPG) I still drive. I bought it for 7000 dollars in 1997 and it has 170,000 miles on it now. absolutley the best car ever built. had three porsches, fords dodges (no chevies yet) and I used to race.
I can go three hours for six dollars. or drive it for 2 dollars an hour. it goes 80 mph if needed and climbs any hill at 55 mph

Someone could fire up the factory and sell them for 10,000 each and they would sell like hotcakes.

the electric cars being built now are too heavy, and their range is too small. The Geo is like the volt in that it uses a small gas motor, but it will run on regular and it directly drives the wheels instead of wasting energy transferiing to electric.

the VW is ok also, but iI would rather drive the geo.

#55 | Posted by snoofy

Civic is bigger then a Prius. I have one. I drove both. If it isn't is certainly feels like it is inside. Honda's don't get the mileage that Prius do for some reason. Actually nobody does currently.

The thing about the Volt is to remember this: you have a loss of energy going from the engine charging the batteries. It's the laws of physics. But you also have a loss in drive train. So depending on how well they actually designed the system it may or may not be advantageous to the design.

The EV1 didn't fail. Everything I know about them is they were awesome from the drivers of them. The problem was they were only available on a lease. GM wouldn't extend that lease either. They were a threat to oil companies at that time - think that had anything to do with their demise? I might be mistaken but I think there existence was the cause of the Prius.

Also note that Honda made the first Insight (seen one this weekend) that easily topped the Prius in mpg. I knew a couple people that drove them on long commutes and consistently got 70+ mpg. So why did that car go away and why had Honda not replicated it with the new one?

Yes price on the Volt is too high. But Krauthammer is a dolt. These have been in design for years. I think the only reason they actually came out was the surge in gas prices that actually triggered the demise of GM. GM was pushing hard on them a year before the bailout.

companies like GM with bad ideas should be allowed to go bankrupt.
Its like a bloated jabba hut, you just gotta let them go.

We have two civics. they are ok
The Geo Metro is a better car.

Mileage is all about air resistance.
and weight, and friction on the tires.
thats it.
the geo metro was designed by a genius.

prius engine and Geo metro engine same power.

geo burns regular, alcohol, or anything else.
prius burns premium
geo gets better mileage

electric is ineficient.

As time goes on, technology sucks power.
our greatest power wastage in the USA alone is the computer. average home system runs 1000 watts continuous, 40 years ago, 1000 watts continuous average would run our house.

technology is what is killing us, you have to burn that much more coal.

The Microsoft switching center here in Quincy wahington runs 40 MEGAWATTS of power continuously and has 22 diesel generators for emergency backup and all they have is 33,000 computers in there, listening and directing microsoft traffic for any computer online.

Computers are self defeating, and when the power grid goes down, nothing at all will work including purchasing, shipping, transferring shopping or whatever. We won't have real money and everyone will go brok on the same day.

Biggest curse that ever happened to mankind. It put us in a glass house and there is no escape from it. We are so vulnerable.

"The EV1 didn't fail. Everything I know about them is they were awesome from the drivers of them. The problem was they were only available on a lease. GM wouldn't extend that lease either. They were a threat to oil companies at that time - think that had anything to do with their demise? I might be mistaken but I think there existence was the cause of the Prius."

See Who Killed the Electric Car? Many of you will diss it for being some leftie thing, but it should make us all think.

your home comp[uter alone, could power an electric car everyday for 100 miles.

waste.

And here you sit, Richard, posting on line, and not just a quick comment here and there... So is your beef with computers (as seemed above) or with those who advance the electric-car agenda?

I have been following the development of the Volt and early as late 2006/early 2007 the car was being targeted for a 2010 release with an expected price over 40K.

Sorry Charlie but you can't blame O for this one. This plan was brought to you by the same brains that ran GM into the ground in the first place.

#14 | Posted by johnny_hotsauce at 2010-07-31 05:43 PM

Short memory?

The U.S. Government bailed out GM. If they hadn't, would the VOLT still be released now with a 40k price tag?

No. And this "disaster" would have been prevented.

Government Motors would have considerable problems selling this contraption at half the price.

I have no idea if the Volt will be a success or not, and neither do you.

What is fascinating is the number of you hoping for a failure, and the disappearance of the American auto industry.

"What is fascinating is the number of you hoping for a failure, and the disappearance of the American auto industry."

Exactly.

We might do well to remember that the same voices who are cheering for the Volt to fail are the same one's who cheered for GM to fail a year ago. They were wrong then most likely they are wrong now.

We might do well to remember that the same voices who are cheering for the Volt to fail are the same one's who cheered for GM to fail a year ago.

who, exactly, are you talking about? you are referring to folks who both cheered for GM's failure and now cheer for the Volt's failure.

go ahead....name them.

I don't think anyone's cheering for the Volt to fail. That's weird. It's also weird that you think anyone cheered for GM to fail. They did fail. They went bankrupt. What bothered me--and tens of millions of others--was the same too-big-to-fail mantra that says that when a firm of a certain size goes bankrupt, the taxpayer has to swoop in and throw money at them, instead of going through the bankruptcy courts.

Why was GM too big to fail, but not Chrysler? Why not CIT? Why not YRCW? Why AIG, and not Lehman Brothers? Why Merrill, but not the 110 banks that have failed this year? And the hundreds more from the past four years?

Bigger is better, I guess. And if a car costs $41,000, that means it must be twice as good as one that runs $20k. Krauthammer is pointing out what I've seen five other authors write in the past week: for $41,000, it's a lousy buy. How typical of GM to build up the Chevy Volt hype for three years, only to build a turd.

"I don't think anyone's cheering for the Volt to fail. That's weird. It's also weird that you think anyone cheered for GM to fail. They did fail. They went bankrupt. What bothered me--and tens of millions of others--was the same too-big-to-fail mantra that says that when a firm of a certain size goes bankrupt, the taxpayer has to swoop in and throw money at them, instead of going through the bankruptcy courts."

That bothers this liberal, too, and lots of others in this country. True capitalism would have allowed the failure. But how many "free market" declaimers in Congress voted for the bailout? Anyone have stats on that. GWB certainly was for it.

"Bigger is better, I guess. And if a car costs $41,000, that means it must be twice as good as one that runs $20k. Krauthammer is pointing out what I've seen five other authors write in the past week: for $41,000, it's a lousy buy. How typical of GM to build up the Chevy Volt hype for three years, only to build a turd."

Except that that's capitalism. You build a new thing, sell it for a lot, and over time the price goes down. One must recoup investment/R&D costs. I can't say this is what they're doing, but it's certainly a common capitalist argument--we see it particularly in the drug trade (er, pharmaceuticals).

But yes, I think that's a high price. Lousy vehicle? I don't know. I can't afford a new car, hybrid, electric, or otherwise. Why not let the market decide?

There could be some efficiencies from regenerative braking too; I have no idea if those technologies are in place in any of these vehicles.

The Ford/Mercury line of hybrids use regenerative breaking. My 2010 Milan advertises 41mpg. On short trips around town I've got up 59.8 mpg so far. on the highways it averages about 37-38 mph. It's a better car all around than the Prius (my opinion) better styling etc. In 2011 Lincoln will be adding the Fusion technology to the MKS. The wife and I are very happy with it and really enjoy the less frequent trips to the filling station.

There could be some efficiencies from regenerative braking too; I have no idea if those technologies are in place in any of these vehicles.

#55 | Posted by snoofy

The Prius supposedly recaptures potential with breaking. I have had a Prius for 5 years and I don't see the battery charge go up when I break. I DO get 42 MPG overall. It was 47 when I first got it, but I consistently get 42 now without hypermiling (very annoying for all).

As to your question about powering the vehicle vs the battery, you can use a small gas engine to power a bettery, but have to have a bigger one to move the vehicle.

The Prius uses the both engines to move the vehicle when acceleration is needed. I never seem to run out of acceleration when I need it. 80 MPH or more. Gas mileage goes wayyyy down when you hammer the accelerator, but if you cruise at 60 MPH you still get an average of 40+ MPG.

I have no idea if the Volt will be a success or not, and neither do you.

What is fascinating is the number of you hoping for a failure, and the disappearance of the American auto industry.

#76 | Posted by TedBaxter at 2010-08-02 09:38 AM

Really?

No idea at all, huh?

That's laughable!

It's okay, you really don't need to wait for the official DEM talking points before you have permission to be honest.

You know the VOLT is a turd. Look around you, see anyone buying, or even thinking of buying the VOLT?

Just be honest and repeat after me. The VOLT is a TURD, the VOLT is a TURD, the VOLT is a TURD,...

The majority of you DEMS don't even recycle your own trash.

And that's FREE!

So why in hell would you spend 41k on an electric car?

Answer: you won't. And neither will your neighbors.

The majority of you DEMS don't even recycle your own trash.

And that's FREE!

So why in hell would you spend 41k on an electric car?

Answer: you won't. And neither will your neighbors.

The Volt represents the liberal eutopian dream of environmental nirvana, harmony and worship. This is just a drug induced idea that shit out of the 60s. Dems use you useful idiots for power, and to control you. They will steal your money in taxes, stuff into the unions to buy votes, then double down charging you $40,000. Oh, and there ain't no brothers going to be driving one of these. The dumbing down is complete.

"go ahead....name them."

You're on that list.

Well now that it is Government Motors...the Obamanation will just make it mandatory that every citizen buy one! And if you refuse or can't afford it, then you will need to pay a fine that is almost as much as the car!

"some posters here have scrutinized the Volt"

Riiight. go up a the thread and you'll see I was the only one to even bother to find out the major differences between the Volt and the Leaf yet several others had already made their pompous pronouncements without knowing anything. You guys just make me laugh. People with opinions but without knowledge always do.

If one tenth of the union-supporting loyalists who punched the hole for Obama had gone out and bought a GM car, they wouldn't have gone bankrupt. Isn't that typical of the libbies? To criticize right-wingers for GM's failure, while zipping around in a Toyota product?

I guess bendor is one.

Another thing that's fascinating are those of you who swear you'll never drive anything not huge and powered by an internal combustion engine. I supposed that's true if you're over seventy. The rest of will be here to see the change.

Mighty fancy golf cart they got there...

People with opinions but without knowledge always do.

good point. a great example of that would be posters who accuse another of rooting for failure when they didn't post on the subject even once. And if one had gone upthread to see that they would know that. but like you said, posters with opinions without knowledge always make you laugh. I'm glad you can laugh at yourself.

so thanks again Danni for shining the stupid spotlight on yourself.

Environmentalism always looks so swell on paper. But putting it into practice in your own life?

No way. Not you LIBS! I'd be willing to bet that barely 1 in 10 of you fuckers even bother to separate your own recyclables (the Gubmit's job?).

The heavy lifting part is ALWAYS reserved for somebody else to do.

Just like Al Gore; "green" living is for others. Not for him (or you).

And, "somebody" else will be driving the VOLTs all over America. Just not you.

Right?

This place, and Krauthammer too, is so full of cynicism and hate. You can't just be skeptical of a new product by an iconic American company, which is a sane and reasonable approach, you have to make sweeping pronouncements about how it represents socialism and mandatory purchases and union thuggery and all such malarkey.

My advice: Lighten up. Enjoy life a little. If you don't like the Volt, don't buy it.

This place, and Krauthammer too, is so full of cynicism and hate. You can't just be skeptical of a new product by an iconic American company, which is a sane and reasonable approach, you have to make sweeping pronouncements about how it represents socialism and mandatory purchases and union thuggery and all such malarkey.

My advice: Lighten up. Enjoy life a little. If you don't like the Volt, don't buy it.

#98 | Posted by cbob at 2010-08-02 11:26 AM

Great advice for everyone here including me.

Are you considering a purchase? Just curious. Interested in hearing the reasons why (or why not) you would purchase a VOLT.

Anyone?

"so thanks again Danni for shining the stupid spotlight on yourself."

I love yanking your chain Eberly.

"Are you considering a purchase? Just curious. Interested in hearing the reasons why (or why not) you would purchase a VOLT."

So I can stick in the nose's of all the Prius drivers out there, thats about it.....

I have been following the Volt for a long time and am excitied about the product. Originally, this thing should have been out a year ago and been priced at $25,000. Unfortunately, GM management screwed this one up a bit in my opinion. A big problem causing delays was software. Basically, they want the car to run on battery power only if the trip is 40miles round trip as that is much more efficient than gas. So, they tried to design the software to know when exactly to switch over based on driving habits, etc. This was stupid - they did not have to automate to this extent. They simply could have had a simple button at start up asking for the expected distance, say, under 50 miles, over 100 miles, over 300 miles - 3 simple choices which would activate 3 different profiles. This would have saved months on development but they chose to over engineer it instead. Hopefully, they will be able to quickly wring out the costs to get back in the sub $30K price point as I think it is a fantastic idea. Anyone against this car is straight up anti-American.

I've been following the Volt a long time too. I've even got a Reuters article in my files from 2007 about how Volt was going to save Chevrolet, and how GM was shutting other brands to pour resources into Volt development. What's to complain about? Seemed like a great idea.

So they've had years now to come up with a viable, American-styled alternative to Prius, and they built an overpriced Prius. It looks the same, except for the fact that the Prius can seat five, versus four. And it costs twice as much. The time from Pearl Harbor to Japan's surrender was shorter than GM had to build a good alternative to Honda's and Toyota's hybrid vehicles, with an avalanche of interest-free government money besides, and tax credits. And they built a Prius that costs twice as much money.

"Are you considering a purchase? Just curious. Interested in hearing the reasons why (or why not) you would purchase a VOLT."

I am considering it. Frankly, the oil industry is subsized in this country by tax dollars flowing into the military indistrial complex and the blood of our youth. Reliance on foreign oil is the BIGGEST national security threat this country faces today. Take away the evironmental arguments, take away the dollar flow out of the econmy on foreign oil - those things are tiny. It is the national security threat that is most concerning to me. Burn all the coal you want or nuclear power to create the electricity. How many of our troops have died to liberate coal fields? Get rid of oil and then you can slash the defense budget by 75% - that is a fact.

time from Pearl Harbor to Japan's surrender was shorter than GM had to build a good alternative to Honda's and Toyota's hybrid vehicles

That is exactly right, and even ignores the monster head start GM had from building a fully production ready, 100% electric car (the EV1) YEARS before the first Prius rolled off the production line. Blame this one on management - they screwed up. Maybe if GM had pushed the EV1 instead of recalling and cushing them, they would never had needed a bailout in the first place.

"Anyone against this car is straight up anti-American."

#102 | POSTED BY JACQUE_STRAP AT 2010-08-02 12:15 PM | REPLY | FLAG: SAY WHAT???

#104 - Excellent points, Monsieur Strap.

Yes, I would consider buying one, Bendor. Although I will admit the price is higher than I'd like. But you know, small steps. Let's get the hell off foreign oil. Work on every alternative available.

Another thing we can do is stop driving every damn place. Build communities in a more walkable/bikeable pattern. Quit using school buses so much and let kids go to their neighborhood schools. Reinstate passenger rail where practical.

Too costly, the old rule should still apply.

Car = 5 months salary

House = 2 1/2 years salary

Any more, your in trouble.

If your household income is 60K per year, that leaves you 25K for a car. (All of them)

No wonder many are in a financial mess.

Why would anyone in principle, even a rightwinger, be opposed to a vehicle which can reduce our need for and reliance on foreign oil? Why?

"Unfortunately, GM management screwed this one up a bit"

Wow, there's a suprise. They should have let GM die.

"Why would anyone in principle, even a rightwinger, be opposed to a vehicle which can reduce our need for and reliance on foreign oil? Why?"

Lots of money in oil.

We can always count on Moder8 and Letus for the Strawmen of the Day.

There will be plenty of Volt's on hand, at a dealer near you. Letusknow when you buy one.

Just be honest and repeat after me. The VOLT is a TURD, the VOLT is a TURD, the VOLT is a TURD,...

#84 | Posted by BENDOR

ok...BENDOR is a TURD, BENDOR is a TURD, BENDOR is a TURD.

AS DANNI said...it is obvious most of you haven't even researched this vehicle. You are just shooting from the hip...with blanks.

The EV1 did not fail... it was buried by GM and the oil execs.

This new EV car could sell like hotcakes...depending on several factors. Oil could spike again. The states and the feds could increase the tax incentives for hybrids. There could be many other factors that might drive the sales of this car up or down.

Your friends at Fox could talk shit about it like you are here.

Personally I would love to have a VOLT. I definitely will go drive one...they look nice for a hybrid. Since they haven't even been rated yet anyone who thinks they don't handle well or or not designed well are talking shit. I have heard they handle very well.

And The Idea is sound. A generator on wheels. It would really b cool if I could park it in my driveway and power my house with it when the grid goes down.

Now THAT would be sweet. Later we could replace the gas generator with a hydrogen generator with an upgrade.

If I get one I will be sure and wave at all the LEAF drivers when I pass them on the side of the road. Maybe I could stop and charge them for a charge!

Time will tell whether they have produced a car that works and one that people will buy. Given history I'd be more inclined to buy something produced by Ford. Krauthammer's opinion is basically worthless because it's a partisan political opinion that shows nothing more than that he hates anything that he thinks of as "socialist".

"If one tenth of the union-supporting loyalists who punched the hole for Obama had gone out and bought a GM car, they wouldn't have gone bankrupt. Isn't that typical of the libbies? To criticize right-wingers for GM's failure, while zipping around in a Toyota product?"

RiR, you are assuming that one-tenth of the union-supporting loyalists who punched the hole for Obama can afford a brand-new car. I can't. GM or otherwise. And I don't live beyond my means. Not a bad idea for people to put their money where their mouths are, though.

+++++

BAT, how many cars can you buy for 25K? Assuming you want a new one, the answer is, not many. As for houses, shit, by your formula, we should have been able to afford a house with a much higher price tag than the one we bought. Oh, right, that assumes one has no debt. Hm.

+++++

Cbob, in total agreement about changing the way we live, but too many (here and offsite) think Americans should live however they want and not have to pay the price long-term. If I can afford it right now, why shouldn't I have it? (Whatever it is.)

41k isn't just too much, it is way too much. The Volt won't compete on any level with any car in its class, not economy, or emissions, or performance. Sounds perfect for the average American car buyer, huh? It is a bad car, but so was the Hummer and look how many muppets bought them.

If Fiat ever brings this beauty: fiat500usa.blogspot.com over the pond the guys at Chevy can pack their bags.

Well he has made his prediction. I think the Volt could do fabulously well...but we will have to let the market (and a $7,500 tax credit) decide.

#3 | Posted by butthole_surfer at 2010
'

uh...excuse me sir for disagreeing slightly...no we dont...THIS govt picks winners and losers and as soon as barry got behind the wheel over the weekend..that meant billions of more tax money was on the table.

"There will be plenty of Volt's on hand, at a dealer near you. Letusknow when you buy one."

Let us know when you get your Leaf.

I don't care regardless. I drive a Lexus with 274,000 miles on it. And when it breathes its last, I'll buy another.

"There will be plenty of Volt's on hand, at a dealer near you. Letusknow when you buy one."

Let us know when you get your Leaf.

#118 | Posted by danni at 2010-08-

okay Im pretty decent at 'getting' liberal humor, but I have to ask

HUH?

BY THE WAY.

tropicl disturbance in atlantic....SHO it off to your east please...

"Why would anyone in principle, even a rightwinger, be opposed to a vehicle which can reduce our need for and reliance on foreign oil? Why?"

Lots of money in oil.

#111 | Posted by LetUsPrey at 2010-08-02 01:33 PM

Because you can buy a better hybrid at 2/3 the cost? Could be one reason.

"Why would anyone in principle, even a rightwinger, be opposed to a vehicle which can reduce our need for and reliance on foreign oil? Why?"

Lots of money in oil.

#111 | Posted by LetUsPrey at 2010-08-02 01:33 PM

Because you can buy a better hybrid at 2/3 the cost? Could be one reason.

So a gas engine is replenishing the battery? How much more efficient is replenishing the battery with a gas engine than having the gas engine power the car?
#9 | Posted by butthole_surfer

I believe the gas engine runs at idle all the time. & probably no fluctuation in engine RPM to accelerate the vehicle as a result. The electric motor likely is direct-driven where no transmission would be necessary. I can see your point in questioning the need for the batteries. Locomotives use a generator to power their electric motors, not charge batteries. The greater the power demand, the harder the diesel runs & more fuel is consumed. The batteries in the Volt are acting like a buffering system allowing the motors to have the acceleration power they need w/o an added draw to the fuel supply. Statistically, this makes for a more fuel-efficient vehicle that can make the claim "it can go up to 40 miles on charge w/o the need for gas". However, power always needs to come from somewhere. Whether you're charging from your wall, or off your 4-cyl engine to replenish your cells… you're still burning fuel.

Potential system problems I can think of…
The tiny 4-cyinder engine idles while charging… I could see where abundant carbon build-up will result from not "revving".
Hilly terrain will severely limit 40mi cell mileage range.
Exposure to heat or cool environmental temperatures will affect battery efficiency.
…other than that and the price, I'd like one.

so if they can make a cell phone that recharges with your own kinetic energy as is out now...couldnt this be the same..or just too large to be feasible at the moment?
I mean didnt all think the self winding watch was like a miracle and YEaH I know its not the same thing but SOMEoNE came up with that once upon a time...

AND THE solar plane that stores enough energy during the day to fly all nite?????

"build it and they will come"

NO !!!!

build what THEY WANT, and they will come.

Good point, Afk. Waitaminnit, though--did you just say something positive about solar?

Look. I am a right winger. I drive a Prius because it is economically feasable for me. I also drive a Chevy Avalanche because it will haul 5 people and their gear.

My Avalanche is getting old. I went to look at new ones, and they are $40,000+. I decided to hold on to the old girl (2002).

I only paid $25,000 for the Prius (42 MPG average) with over $7000 back from state and fed. (ie paid $18,000 real money).

Why in the He!! would I even consider paying $40,000+ for a 4 person little car? Not ecenomically feasable.

I would LOVE a car that I can plug in and drive 40 miles. It would take me to work and back, or to the store and back, no problem. It would be cool. Cool should not cost $40,000!!

And I only paid $23,000 for the Avalanche back in 2002.

A new car was $2000 in 1960
Average wages were twice that
#5 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2010-07-31 03:47 PM

and the cars were basically motorized beer cans...

With as much fuss as they're making over AC usage… you suppose they're gonn' get pissy about pluggin' in your 220v rapid car charger during peak hours? Also, the cars that don't have their own power replenishing systems and can only use an outlet… What the hell ya gonna' do when your car runs out of juice mid-way up a hill? Better have quite the length of extension cord. :^D

"AC" as in Air Conditioner.

the geo metro was designed by a genius.

#69 | Posted by richardrhine at 2010-08-02 08:41 AM | Reply | Flag:

It's a small, light Suzuki

nothing special

Yuneec Chinese Electric Airplane Info & First Flight
www.youtube.com

SkySpark - record 100% electric airplane
www.youtube.com

Worlds First!! Electric Plane 2 Seater
www.youtube.com

Electric Airplane Electraflyer-C on CNN
www.youtube.com

Sonex Electric Powered Flight, EAA AirVenture Oshkosh 2007
www.youtube.com

Electra Flyer, Murphy Maverick, Hummel CA 2, EuroFox
www.youtube.com

What is fascinating is the number of you hoping for a failure, and the disappearance of the American auto industry.

#76 | Posted by TedBaxter at 2010-08-02 09:38 AM | Reply | Flag:

"What is fascinating is the number of you hoping for a failure, and the disappearance of the American auto industry."

Exactly.

#77 | Posted by danni at 2010-08-02 09:54 AM | Reply | Flag:

go to Mississippi and say that:

A significant supplier for the Toyota Motor Corp. plant in Blue Springs, Miss., is moving forward with its plans for a $200 million plant in nearby Baldwyn.

Auto Parts Manufacturing Mississippi Inc.'s plant will provide auto bodies for the Toyota vehicle assembly plant from its 516,700-square-foot facility located 10 miles north of Tupelo, according to a statement from Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour.

The Baldwyn plant will be the company's first in the United States and will employ close to 300.

memphis.bizjournals.com

"I believe the gas engine runs at idle all the time. & probably no fluctuation in engine RPM to accelerate the vehicle as a result.

Potential system problems I can think of…
The tiny 4-cyinder engine idles while charging… I could see where abundant carbon build-up will result from not "revving".

#124 | Posted by R0B0T at 2010-08-02 03:23 PM"

I don't think the engine runs all the time, the idle part isn't as clear but I would doubt that it idles all the time. Even if it did I can't imagine carbon build-up being a problem with todays computerized fuel delivery systems.

#137 | Posted by vernon at 2010-08-02 04:54 PM | Reply | Flag: Doesn't know what American means.

Why would anyone buy a vehicle that requires the driver to use butter upon their bellies before they got into the damned thing?? You would think a bigger vehicle would be more practical. I wouldn't give a dinky assed car to a teenager that's for sure. I'd get them a big assed Hooptymobile so if they wind up in a wreck they can at least walk away from it if not drive away with maybe a bent bumper. These crazy vehicles are made of asswipe paper. One wreck and it's a junker. Oh and did they ever get the wiring fixed on these hybrids. I remember reading a few years ago Fire Fighters complaining that the high voltage wiring went through the window support columbs and were a electrocution hazzard. My guess is they haven't.

Larry

Let's see. GM put 480 million of our dollars into developing this abortion of a car. Let's see how many they sell.....Anyone here who pretends it's a good idea? Then tell us about the cost benefit analysis for the car. What??? There aren't any discussions or projections of their efficency??? CLEAR MESSAGE THAT THEY ARE NOT ECONOMICAL.....I suggest you put your hand on your wallet and back out of the show room floors.....

Funny how none of the left is talking about the 2 billion GM spent of our money for a sub prime auto finance co 2 weeks ago. I thought the dr left BASHED sub prime companies for making bad loans and screwing people. now you ignore your past comments COMPLETELY.

The dr left, as hypocritical as the day is long.

So here we have a gov owned company spending our money to buy a sub prime company. While this might actually help them come to market as an IPO, I find it ludicrous...seeing that the gov owns GMAC and has plenty of capacity there to generate any amount of loan power needed. WHY BUY A SUB PRIME (evil) greedy sob banker???
oh that's right the left can't defend themselves, they merely attack the questioner!

DR LEFT= CLUELESS

In what way is that a problem, Doc?
#37 | Posted by pragmatist

In my experience -- based, I hasten to add, on a couple of interviews I've conducted with psychiatrists (not involving me as a subject) and discussions with some (again, not involving me as a subject) -- I've found many psychiatrists to be like many other doctors: they assume they know damn near everything and amazingly fall back on their experience as MDs to back up statements on anything from dancing to dandelions. But psychiatrists differ a bit from most of the MDs I run into: many get ambiguity mixed up in it and assume that everyone is as fucked up as they are.

Again, I'm generalizing. It was meant as a joke. But I'm not really interested in what a psychiastrist who thinks he's an expert on international affair, national politics, defense issues, the economy, and now automobiles has to say. Especially Krauthammer, who strikes kme as almost unbelievably pedantic and narrow.

Krauthammer is the one that said the auto bailouts would be disastrous, as it became obvious that these were successful, no peep from Krauthammer, not even chirping. His record on being right is very low. So his opinion can be safely discarded

Orders for the volt exceed production!
Chevrolet says that, in response to strong initial demand, as shown by orders, it is increasing the annual production capacity of its Chevrolet Volt extended-range EV by 50 percent to 45,000 units by 2012.

The volt is a joke. I agree with Krauthammer, it is a disaster. The whole idea is to reduce your carbon footprint, right? Well, anybody who understands physics and science knows that just the opposite will happen. When you transform energy from one source to another, an inherent inefficiency cannot be overlooked. Direct fired gasoline powered engines are far more efficient than converting the energy into electricity. Basically, you've just moved your footprint from one energy source to another, and made your overall footprint even larger.

"The volt is a joke. I agree with Krauthammer, it is a disaster. "

Yeah, I agree with Krauthammer as well. He advocates raising gas taxes, a far better way to reduce oil consumption. But I bet all the rtards around here praising him don't support him on this. They want to do nothing.

A gas generator operating at optimum efficiency speed and settings can be multiples more efficient than a direct-drive gas engine tuned for optimum power. That's why hybrids are so efficient.

Vernon, do you understand the difference between "American" and "Japanese"?

Yeah, I realize 300 Mississippians will be employed which is cool if they're paid a decent wage with timely raises and bonuses.

I get this odd feeling regarding this because my M16 all those years ago was made by Hydramatic (GM's auto trans company) wonder how I'd feel if it were "Made by Hyundai"? Not sayin' I used it all that much, but still.

Vernon, do you understand the difference between "American" and "Japanese"?

Yeah, I realize 300 Mississippians will be employed which is cool if they're paid a decent wage with timely raises and bonuses.

I get this odd feeling regarding this because my M16 all those years ago was made by Hydramatic (GM's auto trans company) wonder how I'd feel if it were "Made by Hyundai"? Not sayin' I used it all that much, but still.

#147 | Posted by TedBaxter at 2010-08-02 09:35 PM | Reply | Flag:

I understand that the 300 new autoworker jobs will be filled by Americans. Joining thousands of other American autoworkers at Toyota, Honda, Isuzu, Mercedes, BMW, Hyundai, Hino, etc.

Your ancient prejudice against foreign manufacturing is not at issue. I was responding to the comment about the demise of the American auto industry.

Why must that be narrowly defined to three companies? Did Chrysler cease to be American when it was acquired by Mercedes? Do you know that GM and Ford own significant pieces of foreign car makers?

If GM is a stakeholder in Hyundai, which makes cars in Alabama built by Americans, is it part of the American auto industry?

#137 | Posted by prozacboi at 2010-08-02 05:08 PM | Reply | Flag: Thinks Japanese will be sent to Mississippi to make cars

PS for GAS Do not EVER sign My name to Your words. NEVER. You want to make a statement great more power to You. Just don't put My name to it. You capisce??

#30 | Posted by LarryMohr

Hey Larry I like you I really do but BITE ME!!! CAPISCE???

Fuck off GAS that is My name not Yours. You want to sign Your posts more power to You just don't sign My name to it. Got that Mother Fucker. Yeah I'll take the Dump RCADE since You won't do what is right.

Larry

The fact is this: GM was about to go bankrupt until this administration seized the company with tax-payer dollars and is now using tax-payer dollars to highly subsidize a product that it owns. Am I the only one who recognizes the conflict-of-interests here? JeffJ

Conflict of Interest? Nahhhhhh...

And the product will fail--people won't buy them--unless they give them away.

And how much gas does it take to charge one of these cars with electricity?

Fuck off GAS that is My name not Yours.

Larry

#151 | Posted by LarryMohr

Gee I had no idea you felt so strongly about it Mary...er...Larry

P.S. BITE ME!!!

Hey, Doc. Thanks for clarifying.

I think at least a few posters here think they're just as smart and informed as Krauthammer thinks he is.

#137 | Posted by prozacboi at 2010-08-02 05:08 PM | Reply | Flag: Thinks Japanese will be sent to Mississippi to make cars

No, but thanks to your link, but conviently left out by you, I know that...
"Auto Parts Manufacturing is the U.S. division of Toyota Auto Body. Based in Kariya-city, Japan, Toyota Auto Body is about 56 percent owned by Toyota Motor and is part of the Toyota Group of Companies"

I don't think the engine runs all the time, the idle part isn't as clear but I would doubt that it idles all the time. Even if it did I can't imagine carbon build-up being a problem with todays computerized fuel delivery systems.
#136 | Posted by prozacboi

No,it only runs while charging, but that's most of the time when compared to how many miles you get off a full charge versus how many you get off the tank of fuel. Carbon build-up isn't as much of a question of how fuel is delivered as much as what remains from the burnt fuel. Carbon is blown out when the engine accelerates. If your running idle all the time (what would be the point of the batteries buffering the system if not the case), you'll never get it out. We'll be seeing diesel-like black plumes of the stuff shooting out every time the engine starts... what a humorous sight that'd be?

A gas generator operating at optimum efficiency speed and settings can be multiples more efficient than a direct-drive gas engine tuned for optimum power.
#146 | Posted by jsalathe

I pretty much agree there.

I don't know where Krauthammer was on the issue of federal assistance for GM but, like many other conservate idealogues, I suspect he didn't want to see it happen. He, and others of his ilk, can't abide a successful GM because it would be convincing evidence that their conservative, non patriotic ideas are BS. Consequently, they will bash anything that GM does which demonstrates that it is recovering.

"Carbon build-up isn't as much of a question of how fuel is delivered as much as what remains from the burnt fuel.

#156 | Posted by R0B0T at 2010-08-02 11:53 PM"

??? Thats the point of computer/electronic fuel injection, very efficient fuel mixture.

??? Thats the point of computer/electronic fuel injection, very efficient fuel mixture.

Posted by prozacboi at 2010-08-03 07:54 AM | Reply

That is called stoichiometric

Direct fired gasoline powered engines are far more efficient than converting the energy into electricity.

#144 | Posted by Republican4ever

That is not true in all cases. Take for example freight engines using diesel engines turning electrical generators to power the bogies.

Light rail, subways, and many intra-city passenger lines are direct electric.

There is no beating the efficiency, power, and torque of an electrical motor.

That said, e-vehicles for the general public are still not ready for prime time.

The tiny 4-cyinder engine idles while charging… I could see where abundant carbon build-up will result from not "revving".

#124 | Posted by R0B0T at 2010-08-02 03:23 PM"

I don't think the engine runs all the time, the idle part isn't as clear but I would doubt that it idles all the time. Even if it did I can't imagine carbon build-up being a problem with todays computerized fuel delivery systems.

#136 | Posted by prozacboi

BG 44K Fuel System Cleaner will fix that right up.

www.bgprod.com

I was under the impression that the 4 cyclinder in a hybrid only ran during a power demand. IE at initial start up climbing hills or when the electric motor was under load or losing voltage. Then the gasoline motor kicked on to give the car that extra boost of power. Until then it was totally off and not running.

Larry

"The tiny 4-cyinder engine idles while charging… I could see where abundant carbon build-up will result from not "revving"."

Does GM know this genius engineer is available???

#155 | Posted by prozacboi at 2010-08-02 11:50 PM | Reply | Flag:

The workers are Americans, paying taxes in America and spending their paychecks in America

They are making cars that will be sold to other Americans

So, tell me, are they part of the AMERICAN auto industry? Simple yes or no question.

+++PRAGMATIST++++
1 - Toyota Prius for a start

2 - Congratulations on being one of the few that didn't overbuy.

I know many more people in the following situation.
Combined income 50K-80K

2-4 cars/toys = 60-80K average total
House assessed at 250K-350K

Early '70's
Pack of smokes .35
Gal of gas .35
Gal of milk .35
New Car 2,500
New House 20,000
Workers wage 3.00 - 5.00 hr

Today, in most cases, not factoring in the added taxes, take above numbers X 10, EXCEPT for WAGES. Today's average workers wage is 10.00 - 25.00, or above numbers x 3, or 5 at best, well below inflation.
There's your problem.

#151 | Posted by LarryMohr at 2010-08-02 10:43 PM | Reply | Flag:

I had an 8th grade science teacher named Larry. You got issues with him, too?

Investors' Business Daily and Forbes have reviews this morning which pan the car.

And a quick question: if there's a taxpayer subsidy of $7500 for buying a $41,000 car, and it's acknowledged that people who buy it are well-off, aren't we subsidizing a purchase by the rich?

Why should it be any different. We bailed out wall street for the rich, and taxpayers have to pay for that as well.

He advocates raising gas taxes, a far better way to reduce oil consumption.

#145 | Posted by nullifidian at 2010-08-02 07:07 PM

Raise taxes on gasoline reducing consumption!? How do you propose NOT killing off the economy at the same time?

Reduced consumption means just that - reduced economic activity because of less money being spent by the American consumer.

You support further weakening the economy?

I had an 8th grade science teacher named Larry.
#166 | Posted by vernon

Poor bastard's probably rolling over in his grave.

??? Thats the point of computer/electronic fuel injection, very efficient fuel mixture.
#158 | Posted by prozacboi

Emission neutrality might look great on paper, and even in the controlled environment sort term, but there are so many factors like the degradation of internal components that are void of a sensor telling the computer to compensate it's fuel/air ratios on the fly. True, they've come a long way, but it's not perfect and eventually carbon will build up and billow.
BG 44K Fuel System Cleaner will fix that right up.www.bgprod.com
#161 | Posted by ZOT

Well, you've got me there. :^D

Does GM know this genius engineer is available???
#163 | Posted by danni

What, do you presume to think only peasants post on this site? Or, maybe you are the type who'd prefer what GM can offer over that of Raytheon Co. ...not me.
Genius? Guess that depends on where you have your bar set, Danni. Man, I would hope I'm not a "genius"... it would make me loose hope in humanity to know I would be considered a member of the intellectually elite whose mind alone could change the world. Not me kiddo. I guess anymore, the average guy just starts to look good next to all the waste-oids that populate this globe. Unfortunate.

"What, do you presume to think only peasants post on this site?"

At the rate this is going there will be, if not already, more of us than the well healed.

Only a dolt will buy a Volt. Hey, what a sales jingle that could be. If true, then millions will be sold since only dolts voted for Obumbles.....

Give going green a real jolt. Buy the all new Chevrolet Volt

Emission neutrality might look great on paper, and even in the controlled environment sort term, but there are so many factors like the degradation of internal components that are void of a sensor telling the computer to compensate it's fuel/air ratios on the fly. True, they've come a long way, but it's not perfect and eventually carbon will build up and billow.
#171 | Posted by R0B0T

gm-volt.com
Looks like the engine kicks on after the cells are nearly depleted. I'm gathering, though they're not entirely clear, that the generator takes over entirely - supplying the motor with the juice directly. If that is indeed the case, the (gas) engine will fluctuate in RPM as the (electric) motor requests more current. So, essentially the engine has to work harder under certain conditions and can expel any possible carbon. Meaning, I would be wrong to worry of carbon buildup due to an idling engine.

It could be that the engine keeps the batts at a constant/neutral sustaining state. If that is true, then the engine may not need to fluctuate due to power demand.

Regardless, since the engine doesn't charge the batteries per se, once you get home you'll have to plug it in (10 hours via 120v outlet, or 4 hours via 240v rapid outlet) to recharge... we just can't turn on the engine, get out, maybe mow the grass while we let the thing re-charge via gas engine (or expect it to charge while stuck in traffic???).

Also, there is a battery temperature regulating system to keep the cells efficiency in tact wile in frozen or hot environments. So that nixes that concern too! I'm down to the price being the biggest issue.

The question again arises… What happens during peak consumption in the summer months? Are we going to be harassed to not charge our cars along with not drying clothes, running the dishwasher, cooking food, using hot water, and turning on our air conditioners? Just wondering if I'm also going to have to have a windmill and solar panels installed in order to charge my car… that's $40,000 plus…

If that is indeed the case, the (gas) engine will fluctuate in RPM as the (electric) motor requests more current. So, essentially the engine has to work harder under certain conditions and can expel any possible carbon. Meaning, I would be wrong to worry of carbon buildup due to an idling engine.

No, from what I have read that is not the case...the generator charges the batteries and the batteries power the motor. The batteries can also act like an UPS that conditions the power out. So the batteries are always powering the electric motor. I don't see why you couldn't just leave it in the driveway charging from the gas engine if you wanted to.

You are wrong about the carbon build up anyway. Most generators run at constant rpm unless the load fluctuates drastically. Load fluctuation is probably not good for generators. Try it a home. When my diesel generator runs it runs at a pretty constant rpm.

When this car is properly reviewed all these questions will be answered.

Until then I think we should trash this car every chance we can just in case it turns out to be very cool so we can at least preemptively attack it to muck up it's sales potential anyway.

That would be the "Patriotic" thing to do right?

You are wrong about the carbon build up anyway. Most generators run at constant rpm unless the load fluctuates drastically. Load fluctuation is probably not good for generators. Try it a home. When my diesel generator runs it runs at a pretty constant rpm.
#177 | Posted by donnerboy

No, it's not healthy for your diesel gen-set to run at a constant RPM. Nor do you want an over-powered unit supplying your house (evidence being not noticing fluctuations in RPM). If you're generating power, but only using a fraction of it, it is not only dumb… er inefficient, but will cause damage to the unit over time (might want to think about plugging in a neighbor or two). A regulator keeps your voltage and frequency (Hz) constant, but when the amp draw changes while things in your home, coach, or strategic mobile defense vehicle, etc. powers off/on their different components, the engine retards under each applied load, the governor senses the change, adjusts the throttle accordingly, and the effect is a lower RPM. Air conditioners, heaters, refrigerators, ranges, microwaves, vacuums, toasters, hair dryers… any one of them requires a large enough load that you can actually hear the draw in a 60kw unit. Using a multi-meter & tachometer, a light bulb will reveal the change.

Until then I think we should trash this car every chance we can just in case it turns out to be very cool so we can at least preemptively attack it to muck up it's sales potential anyway.
That would be the "Patriotic" thing to do right?
#177 | Posted by donnerboy

What the hell are you talking about? Oh, is this a political thing for you?

"So, tell me, are they part of the AMERICAN auto industry? Simple yes or no question.

#164 | Posted by vernon at 2010-08-03 10:01 AM"

No.

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