Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs
Saturday, March 20, 2010

Bob Herbert: A story that is not getting nearly enough attention is the ruinous fiscal meltdown occurring in state after state, all across the country. Taxes are being raised. Draconian cuts in services are being made. Public employees are being fired. The tissue-thin national economic recovery is being undermined. And in many cases, the most vulnerable populations -- the sick, the elderly, the young and the poor -- are getting badly hurt.

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Reagan's 'Voodoo Economics' included Hocus Pocus lowering what was historically returned to states in order to claime he 'lowered taxes'. States that ended up having to raise sales taxes and fees to make up the deficits.

This is impossible. The economy is booming, GDP is screaming higher, unemployment has stabilized, housing is in recovery.

I know. I read it here on the DR numerous times, in articles posted by DanniforthCorkySarvis Unity.

"It's all the Democrats fault. I heard it on the radio" - WrongIsWrong

No, I agree with you. It's Reagan's fault. Obviously.

That bastard! All those Michigan schoolteachers getting laid off, all because of a guy that left office more than 20 years ago.

Budget cuts also tend to weaken rather than strengthen a state's economy, especially when they entail furloughs or layoffs. Government spending stimulates an economy in recession. And wise spending is an investment in everyone's quality of life.

Lets have a 20 trillion dollar budget for FY 2011 in that case.

"in articles posted by DanniforthCorkySarvis Unity."

I've never posted an article like that.

So once again, bereft of the truth, RiR resorts to a lie.

RiR repeats right wing talking points. Claims he doesn't watch FoxNews, so it must be talk radio.

No one gets the crap thee right wingers spout from mainstream news.

I don't listen to talk radio or Fox News. Maybe they're listening to me. Or maybe the so-called talking points are so sensible to so many people that you don't need some guy with a $400 haircut telling you what you should say.

I think Barack Obama is a lying, duplicitous turd, and a lousy human being. His tax-dodging Treasury Secretary is the worst to have ever held the post, and Joe Biden is the biggest embarrassment in American public life. Obama is running the worst administration in memory, and coming on the heels of Bush's, that is really, really amazing. The only people more pathetic and stupid than Obama himself are his supporters, which include you.

So let me know what right-wing radio personality says things like that on a daily basis, and I'll maybe start tuning in. Otherwise, it's not even worth having to hear all the commercials to buy gold.

"I think Barack Obama is a lying, duplicitous turd, and a lousy human being...."

...but I voted for George W. Bush and Dick Cheney, twice.

And you'll vote for Obama again. That's what libbies do. Collapsing poll numbers, skyrocketing deficits, foreign leaders snubbed to squeeze in another few days of arm-twisting and bribes, and it's all Fox News' fault. Or Reagan's.

Kerry and Gore were worse than Bush too. That's also amazing. But I'll never vote for a Democrat again in my lifetime. Ever. Republicans, Constitution Party, Libertarians--anything is preferable to the people who are now kowtowing to ObamaPelosiReid. It's disgusting.

How is all that low interest government borrowing and deficit creating legislation you were a cheerleader for while Bush was President working out, Mr. Financial Genius?

Anyone Bush's chief cheerleader like you should keep their traps shut to avoid embarrassment.

I suppose it's the fault of small-government conservatives that the states are collapsing.

It's a shame they can't print their own money anymore, or issue sovereign debt, or have the Fed take over their crummy loans. Then they could just get Geithner and Bernanke--both Obama appointees--to paper over their debt problems until the next generation.

But no. Too bad. All those states who pulled the lever for Obama, now going broke.

My State is in the black. We know how to be fiscally accountable around here, and we pay our bills. We also have real resources and not imaginary paper wealth and a bunch of debt.

That's because of Obama, Wurst. The bankrupt states are Reagan's fault, and the healthy ones are because of this rip-roaring Obama recovery that's underway.

I'm not from TX, but I have to laugh when liberals say they want them to secede or STFU when they are one of the few states that are fiscally sound.

I will say, the four states in good financial states are NOT LIBERAL states. WY, ND, MT, and TX.

#15 | Posted by wurster at 2010-03-20 12:15 PM | Reply | Flag: thinks a $10B-$12B deficit is 'good financial shape'

"AUSTIN, Texas – Oddly enough, water will not occupy the top spot on Texas legislators' agenda when the body meets next month.

“The number one priority will be the budget,” says Woody Anderson, a Mitchell County farmer and chairman of the Ad Hoc Advisory Committee for Agriculture and Livestock.

Anderson discussed his committee's work during the recent Texas Commodity Symposium in Amarillo.

“The budget shortfall will get a lot of attention from this session of the Texas legislature,” Anderson said. “Depending on whose numbers you believe the deficit could range from $3 billion to $5 billion or from $10 billion to $12 billion. Every segment of the government will be looking for budget relief.” '
southwestfarmpress.com

nice try again skippy

your figures dont figure the rainy day billions and billions...

and if you think states are having trouble now wait until the govt UNFUNDED MANDATE on medicaid comes down or goes UP as the case may be here

Oh my gosh, AU these are states we are talking about, not the whole country.

Each one is separate and has done their own cooking so to speak. No thought towards saving for a rainy day, whatsoever, with at least 10 states. Who are the two biggest losers?

California and NY. Maybe they should contact Texas and ask them how it's done? I can assure you of one thing, California is going to come begging soon. After all why should they pay for their problems...it's our fault, not theirs right AU?

Hey Zat how does that compare to 175 billion short.... like in Cal?

All states are in belt tightening mode, Tx and Indiana included! But they are not about to ask to be bailed out by the messiah.

Texas is projected to run an $11 Billion deficit next year. They aren't immune.

My state has a huge 'rainy day fund'. We're fairing pretty well.

Perry arrogantly refused Stimulus funds. Stupid.

Has he changed his mind yet?

No he hasn't, and they have alternatives.

BTW Texas is the only state in the nation in which every single school district carries a AAA ratings form Moody's, S+P, and Fitch!

Funny all this talk, and California's shortfall NUMBER ONE IN THE COUNTRY, is left unmentioned!

States can leave the union:

The Supreme Court added its opinion in Texas v White (74 US 700 [1869]).

It said that the entry of Texas into the United States was its entry into "an indissoluble relation." It said that only through revolution or mutual consent of the state and the United States could a state leave the Union.

www.usconstitution.net

So if both sides agree, the State can secede. Of course, that's the tricky part ;)

RIR doesn't even try to blend in half truths with his lies anymore. He just goes all out and lies full out these days. I think he is about ready to lose his minds. Maybe we need to delve a little deeper into what has gotten him so angry. I think it is personal issues that have caused him so much strife. Maybe business isn't doing so well?

#4 | Posted by rightisright

FF

Moodys gives Texas schools AAA rating?

Yet 58% of Texans, presumably educated in Texas schools, strongly believe, or "aren't sure", that humans and dinosaurs co-existed.

I doubt that 58% of Californians are that ignorant, Wavy Davy.

Texas is projected to run an $11 Billion deficit next year. They aren't immune.

My state has a huge 'rainy day fund'. We're fairing pretty well.

#20 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY

Texas currently has an 8 billion reserve fund and their bonds(currently) have a high rating. By the way, AU, what state does your rearend reside in?

I'm not from TX, but I have to laugh when liberals say they want them to secede or STFU when they are one of the few states that are fiscally sound.
I will say, the four states in good financial states are NOT LIBERAL states. WY, ND, MT, and TX.

#15 | POSTED BY WURSTER

Let me know how that works out for you once the "good news" gets out and your state is swamped with unemployed workers collecting UI. BTW Texas Unemployment is a "low" 8.2%..

your beloved WY,ND,MT you could fit the population of those states in one major blue state city..of course there is low unemployment.

www.bls.gov

Texas is projected to run an $11 Billion deficit next year. They aren't immune.

My state has a huge 'rainy day fund'. We're fairing pretty well.
#20 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY
Texas currently has an 8 billion reserve fund and their bonds(currently) have a high rating. By the way, AU, what state does your rearend reside in?

#27 | POSTED BY MATSOP

So its a 3 billion dollar deficit..

So its a 3 billion dollar deficit..

#29 | Posted by Legio

Only if they don't take action---Texans often make the hard choices and then move on---Californians examine their navels for 2-3 years and then when the problems are overwhelming, they either move out or ask Uncle for help.

$3 Billion this year, projected $11 Billion next.

MATSOP, I live in Nashville. Tennessee has a projected $96 million deficit, which the rainy day fund will take care of easily.

MATSOP, I live in Nashville. Tennessee has a projected $96 million deficit, which the rainy day fund will take care of easily.

#32 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY

Thanks for the info---a border state---I would surmise Kentucky is in a similar situation.

MATSOP

I don't know about Kentucky. Tennessee is in pretty good shape though.

California's problem is Proposition 13. They need to readdress that. Property taxes were really high as speculators drove up prices in the 70's but they're too low now as a percentage of home values.

"Public employees are being fired. " - article

You people are silly, move to California, they have $20Billion dollar deficit.....and are hiring like drunken sailors....

"Step right up? Even amid budget deficit, California still hires by the thousands"

"Departments have not been prohibited from filling positions," she said. "But they have been limited in the number of positions they can fill."

Last month alone, he helped place 20 clients onto the state payroll -- his best showing in more than a year.
www.mercurynews.com

Your comment about California, property taxes, property values and speculation are really interesting---if you look at the tremendous leverage created in this country over the last 30--40 years, there is one common denominator, SPECULATION---one of my favorite subjects--partisans constantly argue about how the other guy's president did "this and that" and screwed up our economy. But if you look at long running history and the common denominator of speculation the culprit of all these bubbles (speculation) was the Federal Reserve and their ability to print unlimited money--the ultimate solution in our future to make sure this never happens in our country again is to neutralize the fed and create money with some type of standard.

Your comment about California, property taxes, property values and speculation are really interesting---if you look at the tremendous leverage created in this country over the last 30--40 years, there is one common denominator, SPECULATION---one of my favorite subjects--partisans constantly argue about how the other guy's president did "this and that" and screwed up our economy. But if you look at long running history and the common denominator of speculation the culprit of all these bubbles (speculation) was the Federal Reserve and their ability to print unlimited money--the ultimate solution in our future to make sure this never happens in our country again is to neutralize the fed and create money with some type of standard.

#37 | Posted by matsop

That is way too simplistic. The time to do that has long passed. Tricky dick abolished specie as the standard due to our 3.8 billion trade deficit in 1971.

Attempt to abolish the current fiat system and establish a specie backed standard would effectively collapse the G-7 nations economies making the current crisis look like a sniffle.

deflation would be rampant.

MATSOP

In the 70's when property values were skyrocketing something needed to be done, mostly for the sake of seniors who bought their houses in the 40's and 50's and couldn't afford property taxes on houses that skyrocketed in price. It needs to be tweaked - especially since property values have now fallen to a more reasonable level. That's my take anyway.

MATSOP

In the 70's when property values were skyrocketing something needed to be done, mostly for the sake of seniors who bought their houses in the 40's and 50's and couldn't afford property taxes on houses that skyrocketed in price. It needs to be tweaked - especially since property values have now fallen to a more reasonable level. That's my take anyway.

#39 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY

May have to be tweaked again since I don't know if we've seen the bottom of housing prices yet---all depends on how fast they can rachet inflation up.

Your comment about California, property taxes, property values and speculation are really interesting---if you look at the tremendous leverage created in this country over the last 30--40 years, there is one common denominator, SPECULATION---one of my favorite subjects--partisans constantly argue about how the other guy's president did "this and that" and screwed up our economy. But if you look at long running history and the common denominator of speculation the culprit of all these bubbles (speculation) was the Federal Reserve and their ability to print unlimited money--the ultimate solution in our future to make sure this never happens in our country again is to neutralize the fed and create money with some type of standard.

#37 | Posted by matsop

That is way too simplistic. The time to do that has long passed. Tricky dick abolished specie as the standard due to our 3.8 billion trade deficit in 1971.

Attempt to abolish the current fiat system and establish a specie backed standard would effectively collapse the G-7 nations economies making the current crisis look like a sniffle.

deflation would be rampant.

#38 | Posted by Legio

Legio, gold is becoming a currency in its' own right and will take on more relevance as people around the world lose confidence in their currencies---Matsop's prediction---the plan is to get out of this problem by a combination of taxes and inflation through the debasement of currencies---once inflation takes hold, the expectation is to pull an FDR and resurrect the gold reserve act increasing the value of gold that really drops the value of currencies and will allow the payment of debt with a lot of cheap dollars--the "healthcare reform" bill is the first step in the tax scheme---not really much reform---also more spending.

so far its fuck California and 37 other States....

But, hurry, quick, bailout private criminal enterprises, else the sky will fall.

oh and y the way, the so called recovery is a sham

"There is no subtler, no surer means of overturning the existing basis of society than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and does it in a manner which one man in a million is able to diagnose."
-John Maynard Keynes

That is way too simplistic. The time to do that has long passed. Tricky dick abolished specie as the standard due to our 3.8 billion trade deficit in 1971.

Attempt to abolish the current fiat system and establish a specie backed standard would effectively collapse the G-7 nations economies making the current crisis look like a sniffle.

deflation would be rampant.

#38 | Posted by Legio

May be way too simplistic but throughout history man in his arrogance thought he was always smarter then man before him and more advanced---as Mark Twain (paraphrasing) said: history doesn't always repeat itself but it certainly rhymes---a new standard will not happen suddenly but will evolve over time---it will be forced on us since the "deleveraging monster" will devour whom he wishes---we have a combination of deflation/inflation now and the powers to be are desparately attempting in their policies to assist inflation ---that's part of what "reform" is about---that's why they're "cramming" this bill down our throats (combination of taxes and increase spending)---a risky game ----globally and nationally we're in the process of entropy---the economist might say the economic energy over time has become disordered and the system is coming to an end just as it would in a thermodynamic or physical system---the Christian would (simplistically?) say this country has spit in the eye of god (as in past history of civilization declines) and morally become "disordered". When all is said and done, this country will end up at the end of this tunnel totally different then when it began in 1776---since man/civilizations in their hubris don't hold onto the anchor(s) thrown to them by their "simplistic" founders.

Legio, gold is becoming a currency in its' own right and will take on more relevance as people around the world lose confidence in their currencies---Matsop's prediction---the plan is to get out of this problem by a combination of taxes and inflation through the debasement of currencies---once inflation takes hold, the expectation is to pull an FDR and resurrect the gold reserve act increasing the value of gold that really drops the value of currencies and will allow the payment of debt with a lot of cheap dollars--the "healthcare reform" bill is the first step in the tax scheme---not really much reform---also more spending.

#41 | POSTED BY MATSOP

You have no concept of specie and its use as a means of exchange. You cannot use a specie that has medical,industrial or commercial value as it undermines the intrinsic value of its usage as a means of exchange. The rarity of gold and silver prohibits usage as stated before the deflation would be crushing and commerce would effectively halt. We would look like the Sudan economically. Guaranteed.

May be way too simplistic but throughout history man in his arrogance thought he was always smarter then man before him and more advanced---as Mark Twain (paraphrasing) said: history doesn't always repeat itself but it certainly rhymes---a new standard will not happen suddenly but will evolve over time---it will be forced on us since the "deleveraging monster" will devour whom he wishes---we have a combination of deflation/inflation now and the powers to be are desparately attempting in their policies to assist inflation ---that's part of what "reform" is about---that's why they're "cramming" this bill down our throats (combination of taxes and increase spending)---a risky game ----globally and nationally we're in the process of entropy---the economist might say the economic energy over time has become disordered and the system is coming to an end just as it would in a thermodynamic or physical system---the Christian would (simplistically?) say this country has spit in the eye of god (as in past history of civilization declines) and morally become "disordered". When all is said and done, this country will end up at the end of this tunnel totally different then when it began in 1776---since man/civilizations in their hubris don't hold onto the anchor(s) thrown to them by their "simplistic" founders.

#45 | POSTED BY MATSOP

Being educated as an Economist, my take is we will experience deflation not inflation.

You have inflation in the items that people need and deflation in things they don't need (capitalism). Overall deflation is needed in order start a new inflation bubble cycle.

I will say, the four states in good financial states are NOT LIBERAL states. WY, ND, MT, and TX.

There are 19 states that have no deficit at this point. Hawaii, one of the most liberal states, is one of them. It is also one of the few states with mandatory health insurance for all working people and children and just about anyone else who applies for it. This is proof here that the chicken little arguments by the babbler and rightiswrong are nothing but hot air.

BTW Hawaii's unemployment 6.9%, considerably lower then Texas.

Being educated as an Economist, my take is we will experience deflation not inflation.
You have inflation in the items that people need and deflation in things they don't need (capitalism). Overall deflation is needed in order start a new inflation bubble cycle.
#47 | POSTED BY LEGIO

There are three sides to the inflation-deflation argument. One or the other or both at the same time, stagflation.

Inflation because of too much money. The dollar lost half of its purchasing power in the past 25 years. research.stlouisfed.org

Deflation because of too much debt.
Household debt deflating.
research.stlouisfed.org
Commercial credit contracting.
research.stlouisfed.org

nflation because of too much money. The dollar lost half of its purchasing power in the past 25 years. research.stlouisfed.org
Deflation because of too much debt.
Household debt deflating.
research.stlouisfed.org
Commercial credit contracting.
research.stlouisfed.org
#49 | POSTED BY RAY

Micro 101..

Inflation can be due to demand and lack of availability as well .. not just due to currency.

Stagflation is stagnating wages and inflation in goods and services. We do not "officially" have stagflation . Unemployment has been stagnating presence on wages.

...the ultimate solution in our future to make sure this never happens in our country again is to neutralize the fed and create money with some type of standard.

Once again matsop goes off half cocked and spews forth a voluminous but impotent spray of polished words. Just like any politician interested only in votes, it all sounds wonderfully simple until the brick wall of reality suddenly finds itself in front of his speedy train to financial ruin.

The fact is that the economy is already intrinsically tied to speculative investments in futures, derivatives and inflated real estate values, etc., all of which were already based on perceived value of commodities and assets. Just like gold, their value goes up and down with the whims of the free market and long gone are the days when this will ever be stabilized.

We now live in a global economy and that fact alone will prevent any material commodity from ever controlling the world economy again. The reason for this is very simple. It all comes down to a history lesson learned over the past couple of centuries.

The value of gold and silver was artificial from the start. What made it a monetary standard in the first place was brisk international trade between the East and the West just before the time of Columbus. With the dawn of the Renaissance, wealth and opulence soon overtook the feudal system and the middle class began lusting for the finery that was China's legacy. The Europeans unfortunately had nothing besides the ship builders and clock makers that China wanted in exchange for their silk, porcelain, culinary arts, agri-technology and medicine. One of the few things China did want was gold and silver. This spawned the conquistadors who determined that the path to the riches of the east was to murder and enslave the natives of the new world and confiscate those precious metals. When those ran out, the Europeans created a new opiate of the masses in China, Opium itself.

It all worked out fairly well until communism beat out the imperialists, banned the drugs and private holdings of vast amounts of land. Eventually capitalism replaced rape, plunder and pillage as a means of capital gain not just in America, but the communist countries as well. The truth of the matter is that there is not enough gold in the world to sustain international trade nor is there the demand that there once was in the east for our ill-begotten metals. Food and energy is now king, and that will never revert in our tiny life spans as the population continues to balloon.

The fact is we can't just keep repackaging loans forever, nor can we replace loan debts with gold. The only thing that will save America is the down sizing of big business monopolies and the total, unhampered financial collapse of the banking industry. The only way this will ever be accomplished is with the correct action by the federal reserve which is to quit meddling and start prosecuting the crooks that perpetrated the greatest robbery in the history of the world.

Stagflation is stagnating wages and inflation in goods and services. We do not "officially" have stagflation . Unemployment has been stagnating presence on wages.
#50 | POSTED BY LEGIO

That's just an obscure way of saying inflation and deflation at the same time. I posted the diverging trends. Officially, the economy is in "jobless" recovery, which is bullshit. Austrian Theory 101.

Austrian Theory 101.

#52 | Posted by Ray

Ludwig Von Duck was gay.

Great post but will Ray finally see the light? I have been praying for economic collapse for some time.

California just needs to tax, for just one year, all the movie star wages at 80 to 90%. Then they'd be out of the red quick.

of course, some people think that's the fix nationally.
Tax all the rich at 80%

#51 | POSTED BY RINGMASTER

Here's a tip. Gold and silver have been monetary metals for thousands of years. Every country that tried to replace them with fiat money eventually went bankrupt. There are no exceptions in monetary history. The reason is that gold forces nations to live within their means. Fiat money imposes no restrictions.

The dollar has been completely off the gold standard since 1971, and already it's lost half its purchasing power against a basket of currencies, and thirty times its value against gold.

So you and Legio go right ahead and keep dreaming of gold as a useless metal. This is not something our government can control by reckless spending and borrowing. It is those policies that give reason to own gold and silver. There is no safer place to store ones savings.

Ludwig Von Duck was gay.
#53 | POSTED BY NULLIFIDIAN

You ducked the question. What right does the State have to restrain you from smoking marijuana?

Great post but will Ray finally see the light? I have been praying for economic collapse for some time.
#54 | POSTED BY JACKASS

Jackasses say the dumbest things.

"What right does the State have to restrain you from smoking marijuana?"

It's an elected government, and it certainly is empowered by the citizenry to do that. Which is why we need a constitutional amendment recognizing privacy rights, which would obviously include the right to cognitive liberty.

Here's a tip. Gold and silver have been monetary metals for thousands of years. Every country that tried to replace them with fiat money eventually went bankrupt. There are no exceptions in monetary history.

I hate to be the one to pop your bubble ray, but there is no countries left that are on the gold standard. That said, are you now going to say they are all bankrupt now? I've got news for you, countries don't go bankrupt, they just inflate their currencies. Your argument has no logical basis.

I will go on record as saying there will always be winners and losers in every game and it ain't gonna make do difference who has the most gold anymore. It's all about the ability to feed, house and protect the people from foreign aggression anymore. The days of the conquistadors are over ray. Get over it.

Soooo... -- the sick, the elderly, the young and the poor -- are getting badly hurt.

The well, middle aged rich are not.

Sooooooooo

tax the rich...

thats it!

Bet no one ever thought of that.
that will make them want to work more too!

It's an elected government, and it certainly is empowered by the citizenry to do that. Which is why we need a constitutional amendment recognizing privacy rights, which would obviously include the right to cognitive liberty.
#59 | POSTED BY NULLIFIDIAN

Which is another way of saying the majority rules by force. Sorry buddy, property rights are basic to all other rights. The rights of the state and the rights of individuals are mutually exclusive. When the majority is willing the surrender the rights of the minority, they are willingly surrendering their own rights. The Constitution was a handy device to deceive the general public into thinking they had rights. You took bait.

"Sorry buddy, property rights are basic to all other rights. "

Sorry, that's just an assertion on your part which requires the absurd concept of "self-ownership". Humans are not commodities however much you wish it to be case.

Officially, the economy is in "jobless" recovery, which is bullshit. Austrian Theory 101.

#52 | Posted by Ray

Jobless for who? The insular market known as the US? Definitely not in foreign markets. Its been wage deflationary for US workers.

So you and Legio go right ahead and keep dreaming of gold as a useless metal. This is not something our government can control by reckless spending and borrowing. It is those policies that give reason to own gold and silver. There is no safer place to store ones savings.

#56 | Posted by Ray

There you go again..

I never said it was USELESS, quit the contrary its usefulness in everything from circuitry, connectors and medical devices and chemistry make it anything BUT useless. Those alone relegate it to a different category that it CAN'T be used as specie. Two different conversations here.

I hate to be the one to pop your bubble ray, but there is no countries left that are on the gold standard. That said, are you now going to say they are all bankrupt now? I've got news for you, countries don't go bankrupt, they just inflate their currencies. Your argument has no logical basis.

I agree. They will inflate their currencies before they go bankrupt. I've been saying all along, that fiat currencies always go their intrinsic value: zero.

I will go on record as saying there will always be winners and losers in every game and it ain't gonna make do difference who has the most gold anymore. It's all about the ability to feed, house and protect the people from foreign aggression anymore. The days of the conquistadors are over ray. Get over it.

You need to wake up. Our government is evermore dangerous and destructive than foreign invaders. The most powerful military machine the world has every seen didn't do that to defend us against foreign aggressors. That was to build a military empire. It's been only forty years since the dollar was off the gold standard. All that printing and borrowing only hastens the end of the dollar.

I never said it was USELESS, quit the contrary its usefulness in everything from circuitry, connectors and medical devices and chemistry make it anything BUT useless. Those alone relegate it to a different category that it CAN'T be used as specie. Two different conversations here.
#65 | POSTED BY LEGIO

Of course, I meant your argument gold (and silver) useless as money. It was gold that gave the dollar legitimacy after WWII. History is too rich with the failures of fiat currencies.

Sorry, that's just an assertion on your part which requires the absurd concept of "self-ownership". Humans are not commodities however much you wish it to be case.
#63 | POSTED BY NULLIFIDIAN

They were commodities as slaves.

The enforced servitude of one person (a slave) to another or one group to another. A slave has no personal rights and is considered the property of another person through birth, purchase, or capture.

Chattel slavery involves outright ownership of the slave by a master, but there are forms of partial slavery where an individual is tied to the land, or to another person, by legal obligations, as in serfdom or indentured labour. Historically there have been two basic types of chattel slave. Domestic or house slaves performed menial household duties for their masters and were often counted as a measure of status. Productive or field slaves, who usually held a lower status, worked to produce marketable goods; the African-American slaves who laboured on the American plantations of the 17th–19th century are an example.

encyclopedia.farlex.com

Because you have no concept of liberty, you are a slave to the state and don't realize it.

"They were commodities as slaves. "

Exactly. That's what propertarians advocate. Some of you propertarians are in favor of voluntary slavery. It just shows how fucked up your value system is when you favor property over human beings.

Jobless for who? The insular market known as the US? Definitely not in foreign markets. Its been wage deflationary for US workers.
#64 | POSTED BY LEGIO

Wages have not rescinded in nominal dollars; they haven't kept up with inflation. To describe the phenomena as "wage deflation" misses a subtle but profound point. Historically, as inflation progresses, wages fall behind.

The enforced servitude of one person (a slave) to another or one group to another. A slave has no personal rights and is considered the property of another person through birth, purchase, or capture. "

Yep, thanks for reinforcing my point, Ray. You can't "purchase" a human being unless you believe in humans as commodities, as propertarians assert.

Exactly. That's what propertarians advocate. Some of you propertarians are in favor of voluntary slavery. It just shows how fucked up your value system is when you favor property over human beings.
#69 | POSTED BY NULLIFIDIAN

C'mon with that kind of bullshit! I explained before that property cannot have rights. It's impossible.
Every legal document lists the name of a person or business as the owner of a property. To get to a property, the state has to go through a person or association of persons. This is common law.

It is the concept of the Social Contract where the state claims to own the rights to you. They can do whatever they want to you because they have the power. I know you don't see it. Neither does a dog.

"I explained before that property cannot have rights. "

Don't be stupid. We are talking about property rights, exercised by people. Skip the semantic games. You're starting to sound like PettyGoat.

Yep, thanks for reinforcing my point, Ray. You can't "purchase" a human being unless you believe in humans as commodities, as propertarians assert.
#71 | POSTED BY NULLIFIDIAN

The State already owns you from the time you were born. It's the Social Contract thing.

sobering..

cohort11.americanobserver.net

Don't be stupid. We are talking about property rights, exercised by people. Skip the semantic games. You're starting to sound like PettyGoat.
#73 | POSTED BY NULLIFIDIAN

Are you going to ignored what followed?

"The State already owns you from the time you were born. It's the Social Contract thing."
#74 | Posted by Ray

No, the state doesn't own you, and yes, you are part of a community, that's what the social contract is. You don't like it, try to become some bad ass John Galt in the middle of nowhere, without the physical, social and legal infrastructure built by countless generations before you.

Wages have not rescinded in nominal dollars; they haven't kept up with inflation. To describe the phenomena as "wage deflation" misses a subtle but profound point. Historically, as inflation progresses, wages fall behind.

#70 | Posted by Ray

yes they have.. Wages for many of the corporate drones I know have not increased for 2 or more years. The real value of the wages received are "deflated" since the stagnant growth has not kept pace with inflation. Whether the nominal value decreases or the wages remain stationary the end value is the same. Prices of goods and services are increasing in areas demand is high, and thus cannibalize the flat or stationary wages.

You don't like it, try to become some bad ass John Galt in the middle of nowhere, without the physical, social and legal infrastructure built by countless generations before you.

This country crossed a significant threshold in the 70s. Since that time, government has been consuming more resources from the private economy than it can produce. That's why we're getting poorer.
The legal infrastructure was slowly being dismantled from the time of the Progressive movement after the Civil War. I am sure you know more about Marxism than I care to know. Likewise, my specialty is liberty.

I remember a survey in the Soviet Union, where most Soviets believed they were free. That's the way it is when you are born into an unfree society. People never had liberty, so they never missed it.

Ray take your gold buy a boat and bon voyage. America has no use for men like you. You haven't contributed anything in your 70 yrs here and I doubt you will in your last 5-10 here. It is better if you find someplace else to go.

I could go camping at a national forest not too far from here for 20 years and rarely even feel civilization near until I went for supplies.

Austrian theory defines inflation and deflation in terms of the money supply. The general price level is an effect of the supply of money.

Wages for many of the corporate drones I know have not increased for 2 or more years.

Still, wages have not decreased in nominal dollars.

The real value of the wages received are "deflated" since the stagnant growth has not kept pace with inflation.

I don't use "deflate" that way, but okay.

Whether the nominal value decreases or the wages remain stationary the end value is the same. Prices of goods and services are increasing in areas demand is high, and thus cannibalize the flat or stationary wages.

Okay. Typically, those high demand areas benefit most by high interest rates.

At the roots of all this is the expanding money supply. Agree?

Jackass - you are insignificant. You're so stupid, you're funny too. I used to design the factory machines you service and barely understand. I can't figure out anything you do outside of scheme to rip off other people.

So when is the Gold Confiscation Act of 2010 to be passed?

Probably after Obamacare is passed.

So when is the Gold Confiscation Act of 2010 to be passed?

Probably after Obamacare is passed.

#84 | Posted by Petrous

Nah, they'll first have to try to get the deficit under some control with the taxes from the"healthcare reform" bill and over time watch the gold price move higher. As mentioned before they're probably singing out of the FDR song book. It'll be interesting if they are and it happens---I'll love reading the postings then.

At the roots of all this is the expanding money supply. Agree?

#82 | Posted by Ray

yes..The only way to solve this issue now is deflation by collapsing the price of goods or by going on a specie std (not necessarily gold or silver).

Either will cause much pain for rich and poor alike.

asset class deflation affects the wealthy majorly. It is akin to write downs of goodwill for corporations.

yes..The only way to solve this issue now is deflation by collapsing the price of goods or by going on a specie std (not necessarily gold or silver).

Either will cause much pain for rich and poor alike.

asset class deflation affects the wealthy majorly. It is akin to write downs of goodwill for corporations.

#86 | Posted by Legio

And, legio, you think any government will take the step toward deflation----this one seems to have no inclination by its' recent performance.

asset class deflation affects the wealthy majorly. It is akin to write downs of goodwill for corporations.

#86 | Posted by Legio

And also, who has control in our government halls---the bankers---you think they'll allow asset deflation---that'll take a move to neutralize the fed and move more of the monetary policy and oversight into the treasury.

Another comment,Legio, why do you think 2 of the most successful hedge fund managers in history are taking huge positions in the gold market---both John Paulson and George Soros.

#89. Really? By the way, are you referring to Quantum Endowment Fund? That's not George. It's his son Robert. This month's change in position:

Increased Positions (Soros):
Select Sector Financials (XLF): Increased by 63,730% (no, not a typo)
Pfizer (PFE): Increased by 365%
Monsanto (MON): Increased by 244.4%
Suncor (SU): Increased by 171%
SPDR Gold Trust (GLD): Increased by 152%
Emdeon (EM): Increased by 54.6%
Plains Exploration (PXP): Increased by 14%
Hess (HES): Increased by 11.2%

Brand New Positions
Citigroup (C)
DirecTV (DTV)
Select Sector Financials (XLF)
Calls Bunge (BG)
Kinross Gold (KGC)
Autonation (AN)

Read more: www.marketfolly.com

#90 | Posted by YAV

Thanks for the info---another position these fellas have taken a large position in is NG or novagold. I believe it was through a secondary offering.

Thanks for the info

No problem. That link shows overall assets - the gold spdr being the single highest, but if you add up the Petroleum holdings, they are 18.38% v 7.5%. More interesting are the notes at the end.

It was interesting when Soros made a speech awhile back and said the gold market was an ultimate bubble---I thought the guy had lost his marbles and so did others---after that they saw where his fund had taken a huge position in the gold SPDRs. What he was originally saying was that gold was the ultimate bubble in the future. He's kind of late to the game but better late then never.

To get to a property, the state has to go through a person or association of persons. This is common law.

Just try not paying your property taxes and see who really owns the land. The state doesn't have to go through anyone to take it that way.

Personage is absolutely taxable and controllable and this is why gold can and will be regulated if it ever becomes a national standard again, which it will not be for the reason that private investors would be able to dominate the political process if allowed to keep the paper gold is now traded with and the rich in control now will never allow that to happen.

If the world decided tomorrow to go back to the gold standard, assets and debits would have to be balanced and the worlds gold reserves divided up with the entire world. You can't just leave some countries out in the dark because they had no gold reserves. It just doesn't work that way anymore.

You are a dreamer ray, and matsop. There is no magic bullet anymore that we can run to to solve the sharing of the worlds commodities, which is really what this is all about to begin with. The strength of the future for any country will not be how much gold it has, but how much food, medical coverage and fuel it has. When the plague days finally close in due to overpopulation, gold won't be worth shit.

In the end Malthus will be vindicated. He is correct in theorizing that the in the final days we will all be forced to except a subsistence economy and gold standards, as well as fiat currency will be as useless to the world as it was to the cavemen.

Who knows where we end---many will say gold is not an investment but that's all I treat it as---cycles come and go---we're in the midst of potentially the greatest commodity cycle we'll ever see---I treat it as an investment and ultimately will have to sell it to take possession of whatever is the mode of exchange in the future

and the rich in control now will never allow that to happen.

#94 | Posted by ringmaster

And that's a statement I possibly can agree with.

Herbert: State Meltdowns Imperil Recovery

Hmmm....

So, let's take a look at the governance that has resulted in the best statistical results vs. the governance that has resulted in the worst statistical resultst -leftists would argue that we should adopt the policies of the worst-performing states on a national scale; results be damned.

Not one Republican voted for this healthcare bill. It's the new Democrat brand, and one that now must lower the deficet, imporove quality, add 10 years to Medicare, not raise taxes, create jobs in the private sector. Can't wait to see the results!

Not one Republican voted for this healthcare bill. It's the new Democrat brand, and one that now must lower the deficet, imporove quality, add 10 years to Medicare, not raise taxes, create jobs in the private sector. Can't wait to see the results!

#98 | POSTED BY RIGHTPOLICY

At least they are trying. The right does nothing. If a boat was sinking an there were repubs and dems the comment by the repubs would be why bail? The damn thing is going to sink anyway..

In the words of Ace Ventura
looooooooooo-- sssssssssssssssserrrrrrrs..

good article for you Matsop and Ray..

finance.yahoo.com

Gold standards are a sort of "Jedi mind trick" in which people are fooled into thinking that the purchasing power of the money they hold -- whether paper or metallic -- is safe and secure because of the gold that supposedly backs it. However, the truth of the matter is that the value of any and all forms of money, whether paper or metallic, isn't worth much more than the paper that the monetary charter is written on. Governments can and do change the rules of the currency game at will, and at any moment. When one studies history -- as opposed to the historical fictions parroted by gold pamphleteers -- one comes to understand that the history of the gold standard is the story of the constant failure of this institution to provide societies with monetary stability. All gold-based currency systems inexorably collapse. As do all fiat money systems.

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