Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs
Sunday, March 14, 2010

Joel Benenson, the leading pollster for President Obama: It is ironic that Democratic pollsters Patrick H. Caddell and Douglas E. Schoen felt "compelled" to "challenge the myths" about public attitudes on health care by simply restating one of the most commonly stated -- and patently wrong -- Republican myths. ... [I]t is irresponsible, and wrong, for Schoen and Caddell to assert that a "solid majority of Americans oppose" health-care reform.

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Most want reform. That is the easy part. What does reform look like, that gets a bit more difficult. What we know is that the bill the Dems are currently trying to pass is *not* what people want.

The Dems will pass it at their own peril. When the elections come people will know exactly who to blame.

The Health Care bill and Health Care Reform are two completely different animals. Democrats erroneously call Obama's agenda in health care "health care reform", of which there is very little reform. Some, but not much, in the 2000+ pages of government take over.

Mandating something isn't reforming it. It's making it mandatory, which is the goal of the CIC. (Controlfreak-in-Cheif)

"Truth and rtards......has any repub ever met a lie he or she didn't like?"

Doug Schoen is a democrat campaign consultant, Pat Caddell used to be a pollster for the Carter Administration. But now they are liars? You wouldn't know the truth if it deservedly hit you in the face.

In fact, two recent polls, including one with the most negative ratings on health care, reveal through follow-up questions that a significant number of people who oppose current plans do so because they don't go far enough rather than because they go too far.

Not only is it absurd to suggest that these people would rise up against Democrats for passing the president's plan, it is far more likely that they would join others who support the plan and punish those who tried to block reform or voted against it.

HAG-
If you're in control of the Dem party, do base your party's re-election on that?

My point is this.
You guys can point to all the Polls you want to prove your assertion that we're facing a bloodbath this November.
I will believe it after the votes are counted.

Rethugs are counting on 100 million people suddenly coming down with amnesia and forgetting all about 2000-2008 and the Bush Depression we are still digging ourselves out of.

Good luck with that, losers. Anyone who votes Republican deserves a quick trip to the nearest Death Panel to be rendered into bio-diesel and cat food.

If you're in control of the Dem party, do base your party's re-election on that?
#6 | Posted by OohRah

Maybe. Yeah. Especially if the Tea Partiers continue to try to force some ultraconservative purity test on the GOP.

most americans want reform, but that doesn't translate into wanting to give the corporations another bailout while doing nothing to fix the problems that they create.

the health care bill had a lot more support until the repubs shoved all there erroneous sh!t in it.

BINGO KBM... "The Health Care bill and Health Care Reform are two completely different animals"

Very tricky play on words the polster did.

I would love to see Health Reform, but detest the current bill or any form I've seen over the past year. I believe my vote for Health "Reform" was counted in that poll by the way.

Uffda on me.

--Path~

They just don't want the current dem plan! Beware of statistics. Lies, damn lies, and statistics!

not, the republicans have no input in the either the house or senate bills. There are so many proposals running around out there everyone has lost their place.

Is the house going to pass the senate bill? If not, it looks like they are all starting from scratch again. The only hope the dems have is passing the senate bill as passed by the senate. That way it won't have to go to comitee and get stalled.

the health care bill had a lot more support until the repubs shoved all there erroneous sh!t in it.
Posted by NotMyRealName at 2010-03-14 05:46 PM

Among the populace, yes. Among the Senate, sadly not, which was the reason all the "erroneous sh!t" was put in it in the first place, to try to peel off just a couple of the GOP no block.

This is kinda like asking people if they like sex. The majority will say 'yes'... until they find out they are about to be fucked by the govt.

Wasn't it Pelosi who said something like, "you won't know what's in it until after it's passed."

most americans want reform, but that doesn't translate into wanting to give the corporations another bailout while doing nothing to fix the problems that they create.
#10 | Posted by Shawn

That's what I was arguing on the Healthcare Reform Myths threads. Covering everyone is only one half of the goal. If reform does not address the unsustainability of rising costs, the current legislation has given away long term viability for short term political gain.

That's why a single payer system would make sense. Hospitals wouldn't BE able to charge $100 a day for Kleenex or any of the other outrageous charges. They could charge what they get paid.

We need the return of community hospitals. For decades they provided high quality, non-profit care for millions of Americans, then HCA began buying them up, closing them, and setting up for-profit hospitals.

Take the profit out of health care. Works in dozens of countries with higher life expectancy, lower administrative costs, lower % of GDP, etc.

the health care bill had a lot more support until the repubs shoved all there erroneous sh!t in it.

#11 | Posted by NotMyRealName

Absolutely.

"Death Panels" and "Government Takeover of Health Care" were sucked hook, line, and sinker by FauxNews idiots and repeated ad nauseum regardless of the truthfulness of those ridiculous statements.

FauxNews Republicans are great at being suckered to be against their own best interests.

I have mentioned this a few times before on other threads, but I will repeat it here.

Insurance is a way of spreading the costs. You don't know if you are going to have a problem this year, or next year, but sooner or later you expect to have something go wrong. It is a way of averaging the costs, so you aren't hit with a large bill unexpectedly.

This works the same with home, fire, auto and health.

Actuarials compute the statistical chance of any problem occuring in a population, based on some truly horrible math. What percentage will have a car wreck, what percentage will have a heart attack, etc.

The difference is that home costs are relatively fixed, as are cars. Health care cost are not. When the first MRI machines came out, the number of request for them were HUGE, as they were much better... however, the cost was also huge. All new medical procedures and equipment comes at a cost. As the ability of hospitals and doctors to recover these costs go down, the number of new items will decrease. Add to that the requirements that are loaded into health care. Someone owns a drug treatment program and he gets drug coverage mandated by the states in every policy. He knows that he will get more in new revenue from the insurance companies than he had to pay in bribes. Same for mental and nervous conditions, etc.

Adding 30 million currently uninsured (probably more, as the number of people flooding across the border will skyrocket when offered free health care without proof of citizenship) will increase the cost to each and every subscriber. Forcing the coverage of new procedures will further strain the budgets.

Finally, the only solution is what has been done for thousands of years. Those who can afford will have what they need, and the rest will get whatever amount is left, divided however many ways there are.

If you are one of 100 million subscribers, or one if 200 million, the amount of care available is finite. If private insurance companies run the game, then the divisions will be based on ability to pay, with different levels of care. If the gobt runs the game, (assuming waste is < 4%), there will only be one level of crappy serivice. A medical provider with the compassion of the IRS. Either way, people will have limited choices, limited drugs, increased suffering and increased deaths. [if gobt waste is > 4%, the gobt takeover will actually increase the suffering and deaths]

What we know is that the bill the Dems are currently trying to pass is *not* what people want.

And the stay the course plan of the government covered GOPpers ain't it either. Which one is closer?

A medical provider with the compassion of the IRS. Either way, people will have limited choices, limited drugs, increased suffering and increased deaths.

Funny, reality in the rest of the civilized world supports that.Then again the right doesn't support reality, either.

lets adopt Hawaii's health care system

Good article.

Of COURSE the pollsters who claimed an 'overwhelming majority oppose HCR' never bothered to mention that when further questioned those who opposed these bills opposed them because they didn't go far enough.

Momma always told me never to argue with fools, so I bite my tongue AU.

That's what I was arguing on the Healthcare Reform Myths threads. Covering everyone is only one half of the goal. If reform does not address the unsustainability of rising costs, the current legislation has given away long term viability for short term political gain.

-------------

glad to hear it if it is true.

Please note that this article can't provide a single poll that actually shows either a majority or even a plurality of people who favor health care. This article relies SOLELY on doctoring the numbers of completed polls.

Numbers never lie, but statisticians do.

#25 | Posted by path

Good idea to READ the article before posting on a thread about it.

Few do, evidently.

Smells like a one term President loosing his Presidency to me.

Americans wanting health care reform is a far cry from them wanting this thousand page disaster. Even the numbers he quoted proved that.

At the end of the day..."Yes, it is true that most Americans would like to see some kind of 'health care REFORM'.." as said, the interpretation is the issue.. this administration has left the track totally on 'REAL REFORM' and are attempting a 'disguised and misguided' TAKEOVER of the system and intefering with the capital system.. there are many other ways to approach reform and this is not even in the ballpark.. there is a definite need for a 'reforming of regulation' in the insurance industry, but not to the point of trying to destroy it undercover.. we should be spending time on identification of the real needs.. and, also not spending so much time on a small percentage of the population on one issue.. the more REAL issues are the economy today.. this health care reform being bantered about is not a positive for the economy either..
why can't we focus on things like prescription drug costs??? controlling costs in ALL phases of health care and hospitals.. segregating and funding pools for the catastrophic events and taking them out of the mainstream premium pool??? stop making millionaires out of mainstream workers who suffer malpractice (all for taking care of all medical and future REAL earnings), but why give out money far beyond anything that they would ever earn.. and it goes on..many ways to approach this other than a pure 'EGO' bill that not one fruitcake in the WH or on the Hill will suffer from personally..!!!

why can't we focus on things like prescription drug costs??? controlling costs in ALL phases of health care and hospitals.. segregating and funding pools for the catastrophic events and taking them out of the mainstream premium pool??? stop making millionaires out of mainstream workers who suffer malpractice (all for taking care of all medical and future REAL earnings), but why give out money far beyond anything that they would ever earn..

'Cause WE won, sucka.

--Barry

Government takeover my lily white ass.

The previous excuse technically used by GNOPers to call the Bill a government takeover was that it had a public option, which it no longer has more's the pity.

Now the technical reason given is that it is an ebil gubmint takeover because the Exchange has the audacity to actually have minimum requirements for what kind of trashy policies can be sold, so that makes it a government takeover.

How completely sad and pathetic.

The number of people in Congress that have read the Healthcare bill are the same number that read the NIE.

Obama Pollster - of course you know it must be valid - LOL

The 'hope and change you got' is Lies, More LIES, and DAMN LIES - LOL

The 'hope and change' you got' is Lies, More LIES, and DAMN LIES - LOL

Rove-Cheney get help rewriting history and making up faux memes about the present too

I don't know how anyone can think the govt should run health care.

They took over a brothel and couldn't make a profit selling booze and pussy.

My point is this.
You guys can point to all the Polls you want to prove your assertion that we're facing a bloodbath this November.
I will believe it after the votes are counted.

#7 | Posted by frankf55

How about the Virginia, Massachusetts, and New Jersey votes?---they've been counted.

39 MAT,

Amen to that brother. More of the same on the way.

JM

Wasn't it Pelosi who said something like, "you won't know what's in it until after it's passed."

#17 | Posted by Ray

Exatamundo....

American do not oppose health care insurance reform.

They oppose the Dems bills--both of them--almost 60%.

re: I don't know how anyone can think the govt should run health care.

#38 | Posted by 1libertarian at 2010-03-14 09:35 PM | Reply | Flag:

I don't know of anyone who can find his asshole with a map, flashlight, and compass who believes that either the House or Senate version of health insurance reform is any more "govt run health care" than what we already have. What we have now is insurance companies run amok, and a system where we spend more on health care than most all western democracies and with poorer results.

re: Wasn't it Pelosi who said something like, "you won't know what's in it until after it's passed."

#17 | Posted by Ray

Exatamundo....

#41 | Posted by MURPHY at 2010-03-14 11:04 PM | Reply | Flag:

Golly. That sounds awful. Pelosi said "something like that". I wonder what she actually said....

...not that it's important to a bunch of fucking retards who like to get their panties in a bunch over what someone didn't really say. When you paranoid motherfuckers wish to join the reality-based world, you should include actual quotes around what someone actually said and not use those little quotes around what someone on the radio said someone said something "like", you stupid motherfuckers.

"this article can't provide a single poll that actually shows either a majority or even a plurality of people who favor health care."

The stupid is strong with this one.

Everyone wants health care reform. Fucking duh. Too bad this isn't it. This fool should have been polling whether "most Americans" want this claptrap of a bill. Of course that polling has been done ad nauseum, and the results have been pretty clear.

SpokaneJim-
re: This fool should have been polling whether "most Americans" want this claptrap of a bill.

Well, many of them are against the "death panel" provisions that execute the infirm and innately stupid, and some are against the provisions in the bill that execute the old when they can no longer contribute to society, but are rather a drag on it. I think the real killer to the proposed plans is the slippery slope to Hitler's Germany, though. That, and that the innately stupid haven't been offed already, as is evidenced by your posts.

Jim-
re: Everyone wants health care reform.

Such as? I mean, I'm sure you have some good suggestions to offer before Obama-care murders you and your genetic line for being too stupid to deal with the complexities of modern life.

So what are they? (this may be your last chance)

BET 44,
Great to have thoughtful, sophisticated folks like you on the board. Are you still teaching university-level literature?

Here is that Pelosi quote you were seeking...

www.youtube.com

JM

Okay. That was indeed a stupid thing to say.

What was in the Medicare Part D Bill muscled through by Bush and how was it paid for?

don't know? just hearing about it? just finding out what was in it?

What was the actual solid evidence for Iraq having WMDs that threaten the US. Just had to go to war so you could find out what cool stuff was in it?

Etc., etc....

I have a visceral distrust of people who only decided that our gov't was out of control the day after a black Democrat was elected president, and were silent through wars, boondoggles, doubling debts, and a reckless headlong descent into a near depression in the years before. So forgive me for not gnashing my teeth over Pelosi's stupid comment.

Beattle way to change the subject but as long as you bring up the debt ratio The real issue is the ones who screamed about doubling the debt but ignore or are silent about the triple and quadrouple debt by the current adim. Again continue with the deflections and dont for get to call anyone who disagrees a racist.

The problem isn't American Health CARE...Health Care in the U.S. is GREAT!...The Problem is American Health INSURANCE

And the People don't want ObamaCrapCare because they KNOW it doesn't fix the problems it will only make things worse.

51 -
I couldn't give a shit less what color the POTUS's skin is. Claiming racism is total b.s.

Government should be building roads, maintaining a military, a police force, fire, schools, hospitals - and that's about it! I want them the hell out of my life -- not in my face EVERY time I take a step.

Socialism - NOT skin color - is the problem with this admin.

JM

ps - I've always maintained that Bush was a dunce.

It is, of course, a far different question than do Americans want the current pending monstrosity.
Just another devious Dem diversion.

85% of Americans don't want this bill.

the narcissistic prissy president always rolls out his state run media polls each time another "holiday vote" is coming on his legacy. what a tool and a fool.

re: The real issue is the ones who screamed about doubling the debt but ignore or are silent about the triple and quadrouple debt by the current adim. Again continue with the deflections and dont for get to call anyone who disagrees a racist.

#52 | Posted by WI_Hunter at 2010-03-15 12:30 AM | Reply | Flag:

That reminds me that a BIG part of the problem is people who don't understand the difference between the debt and the deficit, or the difference between running structural deficits (As Republicans like to do), and short term deficits required to stave off a depression after spendthrift Republicans have ruined the economy.

re: 85% of Americans don't want this bill.

#56 | Posted by RIGHTPOLICY at 2010-03-15 10:58 AM | Reply | Flag:

Really?
Link, please.

Great headline --- "Most Americans Want Health Reform".

Most Americans would love to hit the Powerball lottery too if asked.

JM

Shouldn't that be 85% of americans don't know what's in this bill. They rely too much on being told what is in this bill without researching it themselves.

The comments I've seen are:


This bill is too expensive, it will bankrupt the US.

This bill pays for lazy bums who don't want to work, they should just get off their lazy asses and get a job.

Obama (in many derogatory terms) is a socialist and this is his/their (democrats) way of taking over all facets of your life.

The majority of americans are against this bill.

I shouldn't have to pay for someone else's healthcare, I got mine go get yours.

I take care of my own health, so should everyone else.

We should start all over because they should do things in baby steps.

The congress are exempt so until they join in the same plan we should reject it.

This bill is 2400 pages long, no telling what's hidden in it.

My personal favorite: Have you ever seen a program that the government hasn't fucked up or bankrupted.


I think I've seen most of those in the news as republican talking points.

From the polls I've seen, there's a qualifier..most polled don't like the bill because it does not go far enough. It does not include the public option.

DRAG 61
I love the term "republican talking points". Such an umbrella.

Are you kidding me? Maybe 1% of "VOTERS" believe the bill does not go far enough. Give me a freaking break!

JM

Do you want Health Care Reform? Yes

Do you want THIS reformation of Health Care? No

The question asked really matters in polling.

Instead of Republican talking points, should I have said Fox news and limbaugh talking points. Should I have said Boehner's talking points.

I have seen many here describe democrats in a much worse way. Calling ALL Liberals socialists and facsist (sic) and Hitler, etc.

I'm not speaking derogatorily, just making a comment of what I've seen, at least that I care to repeat here.

I've read other people wishing that anyone who wants this to pass would just die already, read anyone who doesn't want this to pass would die already.

The amount of disdain for others in this country is incredible. Instead of reasoning we have talking points, 10 sec or 30 sec snippets of misinformation.

Dragon - you saw my prior post and the web link to the bill and the associate issues....It is not "talking Points" the stuff said about the bill is true..and I have given you the page numbers.

Illegal Aliens are covered - they cannot shop at the CoOP but if they are below the poverty level they are covered.

If you go via the government plan you have to open up your checking account for electronic funds transfer.

Doctors are paid the same - there is a bumper put in for Surgeons and Rural.

There are two NEW government agency's established MacPac and the new Department of Health Care that reviews what procedures that they will - and will not - pay for. If they won't pay for them you can't get them.

There is a "one time shot" at re-admittence. If you are admitted to the hospital for something - you cannot be RE-admitted unless approved by the MacPac council

Abortions are covered and funded by the Federal Government.

And Many many many other abuses of power by the federal government on the population.

How can you - or any of you - stand for such a ursuping of individual freedom and liberty? How can you agree to support such an Obamanation?

Is it true that chris matthews fainted at the obamacare speech today, was it from humping obama's leg like a little chihuahua? probably heat exhaustion, or overdose of viagra.
I heard his blow-up obama doll is in some serious shape.

Foshaffer,

NO, I didn't see your other post, but had to look it up.

None of the pages were what you pointed to, I must have been reading a different bill.

The readmittance that you are talking about I found in the Medicare section. It's to prevent hospitals from discharging you prematurely and then you having to be readmitted.

Most of what I read in the bill is good. Employers still cover employees if they want. Large employers are not allowed in the plan until 2014. Smallest and smaller employers are allowed in immediately.

Most things take effect almost immediately, not 4 years from now, it's all laid out as fy1, fy2, fy3, etc. fy1 begins jan 1, 2011.

States still have control of insurances, this bill does not change that but supplements what is available. It also stops insurance companies from charging a lot more based on pre-existing conditions.

About the only fault I could see some people having with it is it does not like medical savings accounts or only long term care or catastrophic care.

I'm not sure where you're getting the eft. That would be for physicians and hospitals to take your payments. Yes there will still be co-pays and deductibles depending on the coverage you get. Any premiums paid by you to the exchange would be by employer deductions just as they are now.

There is specific language that states no abortions shall be paid by federal funds. There is also specific language that states that illegal immigrants are not allowed in this program.

After reading as much of the bill as I did, I'm still bewildered why someone would disapprove of this.

thomas.loc.gov

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