No doubt he feels what he's doing is important. So many self-absorbed 18-year-olds are like that.

Ok, let me get the conversation started:

Maybe this school should take a page from that school in Mississsippi and cancel the graduation ceremony and just send the dipolomas home.

Good idea, buad idea?

And this school would have the students vote on whether or not to have a prayer during the ceremony.

The House opens every session with a prayer--every day.

The Senate does as well.

What would be great is when they have the moment of silence the students graduating start saying "Our Father"..

No doubt he feels what he's doing is important. So many self-absorbed 18-year-olds are like that.

It's not just 18 year olds who are like that.

See yourself for example and everyone who thinks a prayer is important.

The House and Senate opening with a prayer bothers me more than the coins and the pledge of allegiance. I would hope that one day they stop doing that.

What's amusing about this is that the kid will get the ACLU toiling away on his behalf for nothing, and an already cash strapped school district will have to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars figuring out what to do.

They should just ignore it, and go ahead. The worst thing you can do these days is reply to a letter from an attorney. Best to just chuck it directly into the trash.

and an already cash strapped school district will have to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars figuring out what to do.

I think it's pretty obvious what they should do.

Not be so self-absorbed as to think THEIR prayer is so important to cost the district hundreds of thousands of dollars.

It wouldn't cost them hundreds of thousands of dollars if they just ignore the lawsuit, and go ahead.

Kids are amusing at that age, but it gets worse when adults encourage them. Don't like the school dress code? The rules for prom? A 30-second invocation?

I've been to Jewish weddings, Catholic schools, Islamic countries, and there are times when you disagree with what's happening, you lower your head in bowed respect, and go along to get along.

But not this guy! Get a lawyer! This is America!

This is a perfect example of how a loser-pays system would go a long way. If the kid knew that he would get a bill for several thousand dollars unless the ACLU could get a judge to throw out a 30-second-long prayer at his graduation, he might be less inclined to waste everyone's time and money just so he could see his name in the paper.

Valedictorian Sues to Stop High School Graduation Prayer

What a dumbass.

"The House and Senate opening with a prayer bothers me more than the coins and the pledge of allegiance. I would hope that one day they stop doing that."

God knows it's not helping. They couldn't be more jacked up if they were sacrificing goats as an opening act.

Cancel graduation. Mail the diplomas. Tell the Valedictorian to have a nice life.

If someone wants to pray, they can do it any time they like. This is a graduation---not a church.

Pray---go to church

Graduation---hand out diplomas and applaud.

Why some people have to force their religion on others at every opportunity seems to me to be a real sickness.

Graduation isn't a right. It's a tradition. Traditions can be discontinued. Just as this child wants to discontinue the tradition or prayer.

There's a certain merit in consistency.

" Just as this child wants to discontinue the tradition or prayer."

This "child" is 18 years old. What is it about Christians that they insist on infantilizing young adults?

The "man" can have his own graduation party in place of the ceremony he is responsible for deep-sixing and see if any of his friends attend.

What would be great is when they have the moment of silence the students graduating start saying "Our Father"..

Why do so many stupid fucks have a hard-on for theocracy?

Murph, your boner is showing.

Graduation isn't a right. It's a tradition. Traditions can be discontinued. Just as this child wants to discontinue the tradition or prayer.

I'm a host of loons would love to see the school demonstrate the importance of petty superstition over recognizing the achievements of graduates.

This "child" is 18 years old. What is it about Christians that they insist on infantilizing young adults?

You are absolutely right. That's why its absurd when people talking about sending "our kids" to war, like we were forced to go or something.

18 = adult.

Prayer during public events in state institutions = dumb.

It wouldn't cost them hundreds of thousands of dollars if they just ignore the lawsuit, and go ahead.

really? simply ignore the court, huh? just don't respond, what kind of defense is that against a legitimate legal charge against you?

gonna cost you a heck of lot more money, and a lot more than just money, if you try that.

see, we have what we call a "legal system" here in America. but yeah, some people tend to ignore it all the time... then they wind up in court having to answering as to why. ignorance is also no defense. insanity yes, ignorance, no.

Cancel graduation. Announce to the student body that there was a lawsuit and it will not be settled in time to hold the normal ceremony.

Encourage all of the students to find a lawyer to sue the 18 year old, and the ACLU for the loss of their graduation ceremony.

Give the little prick an F and move the salutatorian up to give the speach. Oh, and have some Christian Minister say a really long prayer and mention Jesus Christ about 100 times to piss off all the budding libbies.

It wouldn't cost them hundreds of thousands of dollars if they just ignore the lawsuit, and go ahead.

"If this school didn't want it's students to sue...."

There's two things going on here. Only one of them has anything to do with the law.

The second part has to do with a weenie raining on everyone else's parade. The proper thing to do is not haggle with the weenie, but cancel the parade.

The reputation of the weenie is therefore firmly set as a weenie, and not as the brave young man challenging tyranny.

Unless you want to argue that, along with the right to sue, he's entitled to exactly the sort of place in local history I'm willing to bet he fantasized about.

Looks like the theists are reduced to calling this student a "weenie". Pathetic and juvenile, but it certainly is an improvement over the way Christians used to deal with heretics.

Good idea, buad idea?

#2 | Posted by mitch

GOOD IDEA.

god forbid our younger population stand up for what they believe is right. far better for them to be drones and accept the status quo, that way nothing will change, everything will stay the same, all life will be good for all people.

"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism."

"Every generation needs a new revolution."

"Reformation in government follows reformation in opinion."

"An enlightened people, and an energetic public opinion... will control and enchain the aristocratic spirit of the government."

The second part has to do with a weenie raining on everyone else's parade.

He's raining on your parade. The majority do not give a shit if your pathetic superstitions get a nod or not. The Supreme Court has already ruled that it is not appropriate to hold a prayer at graduation. All in all, Jesus is about as necessary in a graduation ceremony as my pubes are in beef stew. Most people don't particularly care one way or another. Among the people who have strong opinions on this issue only the atheists have the law on their side. Tough shit, bible thumpers.

I guess in the eyes of a self-deluded religious crackpot, standing against a blatantly unconstitutional action makes you a "weenie". More likely... you've got your tits in a ruffle because someone is putting your myth in its proper place.

If this school didn't want its student to sue, it should have done a worse job educating him about our constitutional rights.

Newsworthy or funny?

So, if 1 person is opposed to something, it should be banned, right?

One little shit stain wants no prayer, and the hundreds of students that do want it are told to fuck off. Using the courts, the minority can oppress the majority.

Wonder if we on the right could ban Al Whore and his global warming bullshit from schools? Prevent guest speakers that we don't like, that sort of thing.

No, probably not. We might not agree with the idiots on the left, but we do believe in free speech.

I think the school should just cancel everything except regular classes. No concerts, no games, no graduations, etc. And if anyone asked, I would respond "don't want to upset the shitstain and have to deal with antoher law suit".

The second part has to do with a weenie raining on everyone else's parade. The proper thing to do is not haggle with the weenie, but cancel the parade.

Any school administrator who would cancel a graduation ceremony out of spite is an assclown. Graduating high school is a major life accomplishment, both for students and their families. What's more important: Recognizing that accomplishment or sticking it to people who believe that Supreme Court decisions on school prayer mean something?

I'm in agreement with 1LIBERTARIAN---If it's this easy to get mixed up in an argument about church vs. state, change school culture such that such conflicts could never gain arise.

My own opinion is that both "sides" need t cmpromse and have a sense of humor and tolerance about such things. There are ways fr ths to happen short of legal interventions.

But if that's too much to ask then I imagine literally millions can be saved in most schl districts by getting rid f the fluff so man people like to crusade about.

So, if 1 person is opposed to something, it should be banned, right?

Five people are opposed to it: The Supreme Court justices who were the majority in Lee v. Weisman.

The computer is leaving out my vowels.

"What's more important: Recognizing that accomplishment or sticking it to people who believe that Supreme Court decisions on school prayer mean something?"

Sticking it to those godless infidels!

Any school administrator who would cancel a graduation ceremony out of spite is an assclown. Graduating high school is a major life accomplishment, both for students and their families. What's more important: Recognizing that accomplishment or sticking it to people who believe that Supreme Court decisions on school prayer mean something?

#31 | Posted by rcade

How about the same message to the assclown that is filing the suit? A simple SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU ASSCLOWN would work nicely. Instead of allowing the majority of the students to decide what they want, 1 single self-indulgent dick-trickle is trying to force his belief down the throat of everyone.

This, unfortunately, is the standard procedure of leftist.

oh shit . . I agree with Cade

I may have to re-think my position & get back to ya

:)

Just have a moment of silence and the kids can start reciting the Lord's Prayer.

No one will stop them.

Isn't this snot-nosed brat getting enough attention shown to him on Graduation Day? He's the Valdictorian for his graduating class -- a worthy accomplishment, btw. But now he had to ruin the ceremony for everyone else by inserting animosity and politics into what should just have been a day of fond remembrance and celebration for his classmates and their family members. I hope this precocious punk trips on his robe and falls flat on his face as he's stepping up to the microphone.

Will the ceremony be ruined if the prayer is removed? Why? Please explain in non-inflammatory ways.

At first blush, I too would say the prayer is unconstitutional, but that's without putting much thought into it. : ) (Hey, I"m living the tradition. : ) )

That said, I would suggest that this kid is exhibiting some pretty serious understanding of constitutional issues and processes. Holy shit! A kid _learned_ something in high school? Not just facts and figures, but application to "real world" issues? And some of you are attacking him? Fucking brilliant.

The only negative I see here for the school, other than money of course, is possible bad press. But if the admin fucked up and _asked_ kids to vote on it, then shit, they opened the door, and this was bound to come up sooner or later. We live in America, folks. Differences of opinion and right to act on them. Like it or not.

If the school/district wants to give students power in determining format of the ceremony, they need to ask an open-ended question like "What would you like the ceremony to look like?" That's a little unspecific, but you should get the idea. Point is, leave it open and let the kids suggest what goes in. If a majority suggest prayer on their own, that _might_ be a workaround of any constitutional challenges. See, if a kid wants to start a Bible club in school, there's no constitutional problem there--as long as the school doesn't institute it and no teachers run it. (I believe I can attend such a meeting, as a member of the school community, and it can be held in the school, but I can't _lead_ it. I say "I believe" 'cause I've not read the case law--this is an understanding formed through other conversations and small-scale explorations of laws and decisions relating to schools.)

Instead of allowing the majority of the students to decide what they want ...

The majority of students don't get to decide when to follow the Constitution and when to ignore it. As a libertarian, you should be mindful of the fact that "majority rules" is often a principle that stomps all over the rights of the minority.

If a majority of the people wanted to ban gun ownership, would you say that the majority should be allowed to decide what they want?

But now he had to ruin the ceremony for everyone else by inserting animosity and politics into what should just have been a day of fond remembrance ...

The school administrators are the ones who created this issue, not the student. By holding a prayer or no-prayer vote, they were in effect organizing a school prayer. Officials aren't allowed to do that.

And btw, is there any evidence of his party affiliations? Seems to me a "strict constitutionalist" (a phrase I hear many rightwingers apply to themselves these days) could, without much work, come to the same conclusion this lad has. Who says he's a liberal, folks? Wasn't stated in the linked article, unless I read too fast.

Isn't this snot-nosed brat getting enough attention shown to him on Graduation Day? He's the Valdictorian for his graduating class -- a worthy accomplishment, btw. But now he had to ruin the ceremony for everyone else by inserting animosity and politics into what should just have been a day of fond remembrance and celebration for his classmates and their family members. I hope this precocious punk trips on his robe and falls flat on his face as he's stepping up to the microphone.

#39 | Posted by CalifChris

Another "smart" kid with no commonsense---he'll make an excellent politician some day.

It's telling to see all the vitriol leveled at the student by the self-professed Christians here.

The "man" can have his own graduation party in place of the ceremony he is responsible for deep-sixing

I see. So your view is to cancel the entire thing just because your particular brand of superstition is being told to stay at the door, just to put the kid on the spot and cause animosity towards him?

It's ironic you call him a child when your reaction is much MUCH more childish that his actions.

My own opinion is that both "sides" need t cmpromse and have a sense of humor and tolerance about such things.

I agree.

However, I don't think Christians have a good track record of compromising on things like this.

Another "smart" kid with no commonsense---he'll make an excellent politician some day.

No common sense? It seems that he has a relative abundance of it.

That's probably why people are already pissed. He doesn't even have his high school diploma yet and he's one of those 'intellectual elitists.'

And we all know how bad it is to be one of THOSE.

Wasn't there a story last year about a Valedictorian who thanked Jesus, and was forced to apologize or lose her diploma?

If the little shitstain had a set of balls he would go to a Church and demand that everyone stop praying.

Only an idiot like FuckWadTimmie would post about some kids nether regions. What a perv.

And we all know how bad it is to be one of THOSE.

#45 | Posted by jpw

Not necessarily bad but just sad---have watched a number of them fail in the real world and fall on their faces.

"The House and Senate opening with a prayer bothers me more than the coins and the pledge of allegiance. I would hope that one day they stop doing that."

God knows it's not helping. They couldn't be more jacked up if they were sacrificing goats as an opening act.

#11 | Posted by valis at 2010-03-13 03:45 PM | Reply | Flag:

Psalm 66:18 may provide a clue why it does not appear to be helping.

"If I regard iniquity in my heart, The Lord will not hear."

If the little shitstain had a set of balls he would go to a Church and demand that everyone stop praying.

Except a church is an appropriate place to pray...

"Wasn't there a story last year about a Valedictorian who thanked Jesus, and was forced to apologize or lose her diploma?"

I hope not. That would be entirely inappropriate. The _school_ can't advocate a particular religion. I don't know of any legal restriction on a student mentioning his or her God or gods in a public forum. And it wouldn't make any sense to me. I don't think the schools should present religion or religious sentiments, but what's wrong with a kid doing it? As long as it's not inciting violence or revolution or something, as in breaking some other law or endangering the public welfare.

If that was a story, I'd love to see a link and what happened in response. (ACLU! Or somebody.)

And btw, is there any evidence of his party affiliations?

This was a high school graduation, not college. At the tender age 18 I doubt he had time to build a loyal and extended affiliation with either one of the two main political parties.

He'll probably find himself a flexible judge who will put a kibbosh on the thing, and have his little five minutes of fame at the expense of everyone else.

It's interesting how open-minded libbies pretend to be, but they're not, really. A Repub legislator hollers out "You Lie!" during one of Obama's speeches, and is crucified by the libtards. A Supreme Court justice merely mouths the words "not true" during yet another silly Obama speech, and the same thing goes for him.

Dissent is in no way tolerated, ever. If you doubt their hysterical claims about global warming, you're the same as a holocaust denier. If you question whether or not Obama knows what he's doing, you're a racist. There's no room in the Democratic Party for a small group of legislators in the House whose views on abortion are holding them back from voting for this socialist plan. And so on it goes.

America's sick and tired of these people, these liberal douches who know what's so good for everyone else, and live the opposite. They're a tyrannical minority, and fortunately, the rest of us are just switching them off. They're just despicable people.

America's sick and tired of these people, these conservative douches who know what's so good for everyone else, and live the opposite. They're a tyrannical minority, and fortunately, the rest of us are just switching them off. They're just despicable people.

Sounds about right as well.

If only we could find a way to get along without politicians, we'd be all set.

The Supreme Court ruling seems clear to me.

Eight years earlier, the Supreme Court held in a 5-4 decision that a public school could not offer a prayer at graduation.

"This was a high school graduation, not college. At the tender age 18 I doubt he had time to build a loyal and extended affiliation with either one of the two main political parties."

I know, I know. My point is, some people on this list--well, at least one--were assuming he is a liberal. That's just silly. And that said, I know a graduating senior right now who is more politically aware than a great many adults I know. And he has been since at least freshman year. His thinking has--stages of development and all that--become less black and white. But even three years ago, we had some good conversations. Now, his logic skills and his history run deeper, so the conversations are stronger. He was a staunch Bush supporter then, and now is more of a libertarian (calls himself a "strict constitutionalist"). You should hear his critique of the Tea Party. So no, no extended affiliation with a party, but this guy has some pretty well-developed views. Why couldn't the valedictorian also have them? Maybe "party" was the wrong word (on my part). I should have said "ideology" or some such.

"It's interesting how open-minded libbies pretend to be, but they're not, really. A Repub legislator hollers out "You Lie!" during one of Obama's speeches, and is crucified by the libtards." A Supreme Court justice merely mouths the words "not true" during yet another silly Obama speech, and the same thing goes for him."

Not by this liberal. I thought both were in poor taste (though part of me would love a more British-style Congress, as far as verbal challenges go), but not worthy of all the hoo-ra. But you know, you just called the president's speech silly. Silly man.

Maybe I'm not a "libtard"? Do you differentiate, or all liberals retarded?

"Dissent is in no way tolerated, ever."

And the current and recent iterations of Republican leadership embrace diverse points of view? Boy, I have this really great bridge for sale--cheap!

Isn't this snot-nosed brat getting enough attention shown to him on Graduation Day? He's the Valdictorian for his graduating class -- a worthy accomplishment, btw. But now he had to ruin the ceremony for everyone else by inserting animosity and politics into what should just have been a day of fond remembrance and celebration for his classmates and their family members. I hope this precocious punk trips on his robe and falls flat on his face as he's stepping up to the microphone.

#39 | Posted by CalifChris at 2010-03-14 01:12 PM | Reply | Flag:

This arrogant manchild is trying to demonstrate his self perceived power and intellect to his lesser classmates.

That's okay. Society either eventually molds these puffed up pieces of debris into shape, or they're ostrasized to live in small groups of other parrots just like the grown up, snark, atheist liberals do.

See, if a kid wants to start a Bible club in school, there's no constitutional problem there--as long as the school doesn't institute it and no teachers run it. (I believe I can attend such a meeting, as a member of the school community, and it can be held in the school, but I can't _lead_ it. I say "I believe" 'cause I've not read the case law--this is an understanding formed through other conversations and small-scale explorations of laws and decisions relating to schools.)

#40 | Posted by pragmatist

When I was in school (back in the dark ages), I was in a group called Youth for Christ. We had to leave the school to have a meeting... but he KKK came out and had a rally in the parking lot.

I still don't understand why the libbies are so DAMN afraid of GOD.

Well, I would understand if they were actually being judged... but afraid to allow someone to speak?

If I were in school, and the prayer was Catholic (which I have never been), I wouldn't be offended. I wouldn't be offended if it was Muslim either. Or Jewish.

Now they are suing to prevent the moment of silence.

I say get rid of the whole damn stupid mess. Give the parents a voucher and let them take the children where they want.

People who are afraid that GOD might be mentioned can find an athiest school if they choose.

1GOPiggie,

Why do Republicans go on and on about God while they reject nearly every single teaching of Jesus Christ?

Hypocrites?

"Now they are suing to prevent the moment of silence."

I must have misread. I thought it was a spoken prayer. A moment of silence is fine--no denomination there. : )

"...People who are afraid that GOD might be mentioned can find an athiest school if they choose."

Our schools, by your definition, are atheist. We, as teachers and as schools, are not allowed to advocate or otherwise insist on the practice of any religion. That said, if a kid wants to pray in school, in accord with his/her faith, he/she is free to do so. I have known some kids who are very sincere in their faith, and I think that's a wonderful thing. I have a colleague (well, more than one, but this one seems more so than the others) who is very sincere in her faith. She does not let that enter the classroom in any obvious way. I should ask her how she feels about prayer in schools, and about this news item.

Waitaminnit! I just reread the article, well, the first few grafs. It appears that the suit is challenging the vote aspect.

Yes, I'd say cancel graduation rather than engage in an expensive and possibly acrimonious legal wrangle over it.

Establish a private organization, or more than one private organization, to schedule, fund, and hold one or more private graduation ceremonies for whatever orientation.

Allow people to vote with their feet. If the Valdectorian has 80% fewer people to listen to his Valedictory address, that's natural consequences. Since he's a "man" and not a boy, this shouldn't affect him one whit.

I still don't understand why the libbies are so DAMN afraid of GOD.

It has nothing to do with being afraid of God.

It has everything to do with people being incapable of keeping their personal beliefs just that-personal.

But I guess I don't understand it that well either, since it annoys the shit out of me that some insist on their beliefs being public but it doesn't annoy me enough to go to court over it.

Prag

Here's an example of the kinds of problems private schools avoid. All the states have to do is grant a full school tax exemption to parents who send their kids to a private school.

The courts have already said in a similar case that it is unconstitutional. Still he could have talked to those planning the graduation, told them that he would pursue legal options if they did not remove it. Whether it is a moment of silence or not, the Principal calls it a prayer, therefore in the eyes of the law should not be held. It is not a matter of partisanship, but a ruling from the supreme court.

I still don't understand why the libbies are so DAMN afraid of GOD.

You can't be afraid of something that doesn't exist. Public prayer is just a public nuisance.

"If I lived in a Muslim nation, a Hindu nation or anything else, I would expect to go along with the majority," Rutherford said. "He's trying to go with minority rule. To me, that's wrong in a democracy, one that was founded on Christian principles."

What a great quote.

What an idiot.

Christians once again trying to force their lies upon youth. Good thing this kid is stepping up and saying no. I would like to see graduation canceled so all the xtian parents could suffer.

Here's message for uppity Christians from Jesus.

"And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you." (Matt. 6:5-6)

"Here's an example of the kinds of problems private schools avoid. All the states have to do is grant a full school tax exemption to parents who send their kids to a private school."

Private schools are private; they can allow prayer all they want. It would be easy for this school to avoid this problem: not do it. Simple. And it's not states, Ray; it's towns, too. Most education funding is via the property tax, and in many states, there is a mechanism and a formula for sharing, but you'd have to get the towns/cities to forgive taxes as well. And of course, that would make it really hard to plan revenue for budgeting purpose. And that, it seems likely to me, is exactly in line with your thinking: If public schools can't get (enough) money, they'll have to close.

And btw, let's do some math. My school taxes are something like 2K per year. There is no private school in my area (nope, not even a Catholic school--it closed) that costs less than probably 15 times that number. So how exactly would that tax exemption help me send my kids to private school (never mind how I would get them there--I'm certainly not going for a boarding school and turning my children's entire lives over). Mathematically, your suggestion makes even less sense than McCain's tax-credit-for-health-
insurance idea.

RAY---Jesus was known to pray in public, and more than that to teach crowds of people how to pray. Making a to-do of yourself when praying is what irked Him.

I've solved this for everyone. Let graduation become a private tradition rather than a public one. Too sane an idea?

"I would like to see graduation cancelled so all the Christian parents could suffer...."

Fess up---The kid in question is yours, right?

My school taxes are something like 2K per year.

In all probability, the schools are being subsidized by the state.

Mathematically, your suggestion makes even less sense than McCain's tax-credit-for-health-
insurance idea.

Mathematically, the schools are hiding the real costs of education from taxpayers.

There is no way can bureaucratic institutions operate as efficiently and innovative as market based institutions. They are tailored for preserving the status quo. The Catholic Church is a classic example.

I've solved this for everyone. Let graduation become a private tradition rather than a public one.

Still stamping your feet and throwing a tantrum I see.

I've solved this for everyone. Let graduation become a private tradition rather than a public one. Too sane an idea?

Not even close. Graduation from a public school is a secular event and an important one for students and their families. People who want their religion to be a part of their child's schooling should send them to private schools, not force the rest of the public to be exposed to their faith.

There is no way can bureaucratic institutions operate as efficiently and innovative as market based institutions.

Our military costs significantly less to do a job than contractors like Blackwater.

RAY---Jesus was known to pray in public, and more than that to teach crowds of people how to pray.

Thank you, Zed, for pointing out that Jesus was a hypocrite.

Making a to-do of yourself when praying is what irked Him.

What is there about "secret" don't you understand?

Why do Republicans go on and on about God while they reject nearly every single teaching of Jesus Christ?

Hypocrites?

#62 | Posted by axe

Why does the leftist trot out the same lie over and over? Could it be that they have no argument for the FACTS and must stick to attacks and misdirections?

axehole

Our military costs significantly less to do a job than contractors like Blackwater.
#79 | POSTED BY RCADE

The last I read, it costs a million dollars to send a soldier to Afghanistan. Blackwater isn't competing in a consumer market; it's a government contractor and a bad case of government bureaucratic corruption.

Prag,

One of the ideas that was tried after the courts declared that little skulls full of mush couldn't even hear about God in a 1 min speech (but of course they can be taught how to use a condom, or about children having 2 daddies, or anything else the leftist dream up)... was having the students have a prayer.

The 'do we want a moment of prayer / silence' was proposed. I believe this was put to a vote of the students and they wanted to have this included. There are other suits going on, so I don't know if this is the moment of silence issue or a student led prayer (so much for free speech, huh! Wonder if they would allow a speech that was pro-gay agenda? Of course they would).

Either way, one little dick-trickle didn't like the idea that someone, somewhere, might think the word GOD in that moment of silence and is trying to prevent it.

1GOPiggie,

The FACT is that you Republicans are always claiming to be christians yet ever single position the Piggies take on social issues is in complete opposition to Jesus' teaching.

EVERY ONE!!!! Not hyperbole, just the truth.

Prag,

"more than 9K per student"

25% of all US schools are private.

Average Private School Tuition: 2003-04

-----------------All --Element Second K-12
All Schools ----$6,600 $5,049 $8,412 $8,302
Catholic -------$4,254 $3,533 $6,046 $5,801
Other Religious $5,839 $5,398 $9,537 $5,748
Non-Sectarian -$13,419 $12,169 $17,413 $13,112

other than those non-sectarian bastards, looks like 9k a child would be fine.

"Thank you, ZED, for pointing out Jesus was a hypocrite...."

Thank you, RAY, for reinforcing the perception you've never really read the New Testament.

" those non-sectarian bastards " are the only ones not getting a subsidy.

"Graduation from high school is a secular event...."

Graduation ceremonies from high school are owed to no one. Given that, I'm not sure why anyone wnats to argue with me.

Actually, I'm, a bit confused. I've argued for perfect individual freedom when it comes to graduation ceremonies. That's wrong?

Instead of fighting over the baby and tearing it apart, create a lot of new ones and be as creative as you wish. People can come and go to them as they will. That has to be fair, and it has to be legal.

I'll go with my original observation---The idea is much too sane. You'd rather fight about it.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

God is still allowed in Public Schools. Schools are actually forbidden from interfering with students' individual, non-disruptive prayers, their formation of prayer-groups, their formation of religious student clubs, and their and other non-disruptive, entirely student-led religious activities. That "non-disruptive" component is key. Participation in and exposure to the religious activity has to be completely voluntary on the part of the other students. As long as those conditions are met, it would actually be unconstitutional for the schools to interfere (note the "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" portion). Students who are stopped by their school from engaging in non-disruptive religious activity can sue, and in fact on numerous occasions have sued successfully to prevent the school from interfering. Many Traditionalists unfortunately ignore the work courts have done to protect students' rights to conduct non-disruptive religious activities when leveling often unfair charges of activism against modern courts. Many Church-State Separationists have also created these problems by falsely claiming to schools that they are subject to legal action if they do not take such action. Both sides are incorrect, and ultimately harmful, in these assertions.

"God is still allowed in Public Schools. "

Does he have to pass through metal detectors like everybody else?

Thank you, RAY, for reinforcing the perception you've never really read the New Testament.
#88 | POSTED BY ZED

Looking at the United States Constitution, no provision is made for education, but the Constitution does instruct that ... "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." (Tenth Amendment) In other words, education is reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Why, then, do we have a cabinet level United States Department of Education (US DOE)? Does this not violate the U.S. Constitution? In a word, "yes." The US DOE was established under the Carter Administration as a political payoff to the teacher unions for their support of Jimmy Carter for president.

thanks again jimmah

"Does he have to pass through metal detectors like everybody else?"

Could it be that they have no argument for the FACTS and must stick to attacks and misdirections?

Followed by:

One of the ideas that was tried after the courts declared that little skulls full of mush couldn't even hear about God in a 1 min speech (but of course they can be taught how to use a condom, or about children having 2 daddies, or anything else the leftist dream up)... was having the students have a prayer.

What's that you were saying again 1Libertarian?

There could also be a good argument made for declaring those who must have their little prayers are the skulls full of mush.

But there's no reason to rehash that age old argument.

Actually, I'm, a bit confused. I've argued for perfect individual freedom when it comes to graduation ceremonies. That's wrong?

No, you've thrown a temper tantrum because someone has the gall to challenge your particular brand of superstition.

"The aim of public education is not to spread enlightenment at all; it is simply to reduce as many individuals as possible to the same safe level, to breed a standard citizenry, to put down dissent and originality."
H.L. Mencken.

The last I read, it costs a million dollars to send a soldier to Afghanistan.

#82 | Posted by Ray at 2010-03-14 04:48 PM | Reply | Flag:

They should try booking with Priceline.com

The aim of public education is not to spread enlightenment at all; it is simply to reduce as many individuals as possible to the same safe level, to breed a standard citizenry, to put down dissent and originality."
H.L. Mencken.

#98 | Posted by Ray at 2010-03-14 06:40 PM | Reply | Flag

mencken was a smart man

"The aim of public education is not to spread enlightenment at all; it is simply to reduce as many individuals as possible to the same safe level, to breed a standard citizenry, to put down dissent and originality."
H.L. Mencken.

Yeah, if only everyone could be an expert in critical thinking like me!

-Ray

It's been a decade since I graduate high school, but I don't recall it being anything remotely close tow hat you describe.

"Gall to challenge your particular brand of superstition...."

I'm afraid I missed the person who did that. Was it you? It wasn't the kid in question, or are you telling me he had an agenda beyond bringing the school district in line with the law?

RAY---You have a website about the Bible. That doesn't mean you understand the Bible. You don't, largely because you don't want to. Your website is a monument to you lack of seriousness.

If there are five-hundred people on planet Earth who see Scripture the way you do, I'd faint and fall over. You and Bob were separated at birth, with the exception that Bob's ideas do spawn an occasionally interesting piece about ancient astronauts on cable.

I'm afraid I missed the person who did that...It wasn't the kid in question...

Now you're playing obtuse. Very mature of you.

That doesn't mean you understand the Bible. You don't, largely because you don't want to.

Of course he doesn't.

His interpretation differs from Zed's, who we all know has everything figured out and knows the REAL way of the universe.

Or so he's arrogant enough to believe.

High school students and their parents can start graduation clubs, structuring them as they like and paying for them by themselves.

They can invite whomever they want to speak and attend. People would be free to respond or stay home. Perhaps some individuals would like to attend more than one.

Who the hell cares?---All the kids in question will have finished school at that point. Make sure you understand the salient point---THEY ARE NO LONGER IN SCHOOL.

My suggestions aren't really much different from what there is now, save for the fact the tax payers don't foot the bill

Zed

You're so messed up, there is no point in arguing.

If there are five-hundred people on planet Earth who see Scripture the way you do, I'd faint and fall over. You and Bob were separated at birth, with the exception that Bob's ideas do spawn an occasionally interesting piece about ancient astronauts on cable.

Argument by popularity is not a proof of anything. Argument by authority is not a proof of anything.
Those are common fallacies found in any textbook on logic.

"His interpretation is different from ZED'S...."

I'll say. And different from approximately 5,999,999,999 other human beings. That in itself should suggest a wee something.

Graduation ceremonies from high school are owed to no one.

If these ceremonies have no value, then why is it so important to inject religion into them?

"Argument by popularity...."

RAY---When are you going to submit a paper to someone with the credentials to critique it for you? How many years have you hung fire on that, and do you want to die having never tried?

"If these ceremonies have no value...."

Said that they aren't owed to anyone. Pretty much the same way proms and football games aren't owed. If they are valued, someone can do something about it. I'm not sure how the principal got saddled with that job.

It's been a decade since I graduate high school, but I don't recall it being anything remotely close tow hat you describe.
#101 | POSTED BY JPW

His interpretation differs from Zed's, who we all know has everything figured out and knows the REAL way of the universe.
Or so he's arrogant enough to believe.
#105 | POSTED BY JPW

I have a great compromise.

let there be a prayer but the prayer must be

Allaahu Akbar (4x)
Ashhadu Allah ilaaha illa-Lah (2x)
Ash Hadu anna Muhamadar rasuulullah (2x)
Hayya' alas Salaah (2x)
Hayya' ala Falaah (2x)
[Fajr only] A-Salaatu Khayrun Mina-Naum (2x)
Qad qaamitis Salaah (2x) [Iqama only - not recited in Athan]
Allaahu Akbar (2x)
Laa ilaaha illa-Lah

Wouldnt that please everyone?

"They don't teach thinking skills...."

You can find reputable journals and how to make submissions to them on the internet. Be a scholar or be a crank, your choice.

RAY---When are you going to submit a paper to someone with the credentials to critique it for you? How many years have you hung fire on that, and do you want to die having never tried?
#110 | POSTED BY ZED

Because it is in the self-interest of people with credentials to preserve their careers. To be fair, scientific peer review committees suffer from the same flaw.

My suggestions aren't really much different from what there is now, save for the fact the tax payers don't foot the bill

Except it's borne purely by your bitch fit because someone has the balls to not want to deal with your brand of BS.

You realize how authoritarian you look (and how much you're supporting anti-religious folks' position) by asserting that graduations should be handled by individual private groups so you can have your way.

Fine, take your ball and go home. Be a whiny bitch.

Don't expect to use the tax payer funded facilities (ie school auditorium or gymnasium) for your private groups either.

And different from approximately 5,999,999,999 other human beings. That in itself should suggest a wee something.

Really. Isn't half the world Muslim? Plus atheists, Hindus, Buddhists ect ect ect.

Besides,having a long list of believers doesn't in any way validate a claim.

Final solution anyone? How about old practices that have been discarded? Does blood letting have validity because at some point a lot of people believed in it?

"Because it is in the self-interest of people with credentials to preserve their careers...."

And it's in you self-interest to sit on your ass about these things and blow smoke.

"Isn't half the world Muslim....?"

About 1.2 billion, as I recall. They'd be on my side.

"Having a long list of believers doesn't validate a claim...."

Mind-reading the motivation of professional historians doesn't validate much, either.

You can find reputable journals and how to make submissions to them on the internet. Be a scholar or be a crank, your choice.
#114 | POSTED BY ZED

Let me give you some analogies. It was the printing press that led to the Protestant Revolution. This time the internet is spearheading the breakdown in mainstream news.

My website will be on line for as long as I live. My son will probably keep it on line for as long as he lives.

RAY'S problem is not with religion. RAY'S problem is with history. History isn't what RAY says it is. If he wants to argue otherwise, he's wasting his time doing it here.

My dear RAY----I think it's wonderful the internet is breaking down mainstream news----What's that got to do with serious scholarship?

It's not easy to prove yourself to people who know their stuff. It's intended not to be. You wouldn't want that otherwise.

That so many people believe this crap is symptomatic of how badly people think. The poor quality of government schools has a big role to play in this. They don't teach thinking skills.

LOL that's a little simplistic.

It's much more likely that it's due to the fact that kids are taught their parent's religion from day one.

Not exactly right, Zed. You mean I'm wasting my time with you and a few others. I knew that long ago.

History isn't what RAY says it is.

What history is that?

Because it is in the self-interest of people with credentials to preserve their careers. To be fair, scientific peer review committees suffer from the same flaw.

LOL the lament of the persecuted.

Peer review committees are often composed of the very people who are most likely to NOT grant a paper publication out of career motive.

They're composed of people with expertise in that field, ie COMPETITORS.

(disclaimer-I can only speak for the biological sciences as that's what my experiences are limited to)

It's much more likely that it's due to the fact that kids are taught their parent's religion from day one.

#123 | Posted by jpw

shhh you might confuse those who believe in free will

"What history is that....?"

I dunno. We could start with the proofs some 1st Century Jews were secretly animists. Got any? Beyond your Tarot readings, I mean.

About 1.2 billion, as I recall. They'd be on my side.

LOL sure.

"LOL...."

Well, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be on yours. But if you'd like to argue otherwise, I'll listen.

Said that they aren't owed to anyone. Pretty much the same way proms and football games aren't owed.

That doesn't have a goddamn thing to do with some bible-thumping moron feeling the need to interject his personal myths into a school ceremony. In violation of the constitution, I might add.

Zed seems to think that the school should take the approach of, "since we can't pray at graduation, there will be no graduation". It doesn't surprise me. Self-righteous jackasses of his breed are petty enough to place their superstitions above the interests of students and the rule of law.

LOL that's a little simplistic.
It's much more likely that it's due to the fact that kids are taught their parent's religion from day one.

It is certainly a factor. But still, the raison d'etre for government schools is as Mencken said, to homogenize the minds of the citizenry so they cooperate with the power of the state. Critical thinking skills enable people to think independently, their worst fear.

"In violation of the Consitution...."

Fine. I suggested a means to make it all OK with the Constitution. My, wasn't that evil?

"There will be no graduation...."

I of course said nothing of the sort. Been dipping that special snuff again?

I said: My school taxes are something like 2K per year.

And Ray said: In all probability, the schools are being subsidized by the state.

Me again: Yes, Ray, they are, to some degree. Some funding comes from the state coffers, and there is a formula/mechanism whereby some of the municipal taxes go to the state and get redistributed (socialism! agh! socialism!) to the towns. Some towns get extra money that way, meaning other towns give more, and some towns break even. Social contract to me; ripoff to you. (shrug)

-----

I said: Mathematically, your suggestion makes even less sense than McCain's tax-credit-for-health-
insurance idea.

Ray said: Mathematically, the schools are hiding the real costs of education from taxpayers.

Me again: No, they're not. There is data all over the place, right on DoE websites for instance--very easy to access. I haven't looked up for the state I live in, but I've done lots of union work in the state I live in, so I know that per-pupil cost in that town is closer to 11K. Still far far less than any private school tuition nearby. Nice diversion, though.

-----

RAY: There is no way can bureaucratic institutions operate as efficiently and innovative as market based institutions. They are tailored for preserving the status quo. The Catholic Church is a classic example

ME: Blah blah blah. Schools as market-based make no sense. You will never convince me otherwise. Schools cannot be, and should not be, for profit. But I'll never convince you of that. So I think we'd be better served not even trying. Whaddya say?

I dunno. We could start with the proofs some 1st Century Jews were secretly animists.

What? Jews secretly watch anime?

Zed

Those who spend their lives studying the bible and nothing else, naturally believe the bible is all there is. Those who spend their lives studying the bible and searching other cultures and history know much more about the bible than those who only focus on the bible.

I believe a person who was raised in a Hebrew speaking household, and studied the Torah, the Bible, and the Koran for years, before starting on a 40 year study of ancient languages and ancient religions if more qualified than a person with a doctorate in bible study. After the forty years of study of history and ancient languages, this person wrote his first book. I think that book is more relevant to understanding the bible than a person would get from a lifetime of going to church and reading the bible.

The person who spent those 40 years is Zecharia Sitchin, and I believe he is the most qualified person on the planet to explain the bible and its history. WHY? Because I have read 8 of his books, and they are coherent where the bible is fanciful. His books make sense of the biblical tales of the Garden of Eden---the Flood---the Tower of Babel, and more. Of course I shouldn't say his books---he does nothing but interpret ancient texts---the texts on which the bible is based. I have read the bible and Sitchin. You have only read the bible.

"The 'do we want a moment of prayer / silence' was proposed. I believe this was put to a vote of the students and they wanted to have this included. There are other suits going on, so I don't know if this is the moment of silence issue or a student led prayer (so much for free speech, huh! Wonder if they would allow a speech that was pro-gay agenda? Of course they would)."

1Lib, you're missing the point. It is against Supreme Court decisions--this has been pretty well decided, and I don't know why it's even an issue. Prayer in schools is a big fat no-no.

Again, if a kid wants to pray or thank God in his or her speech, I don't think there'd be a problem with that. This is an entirely different situation.

I'm not gonna bite on your other buttons. (Unfortunate metaphor mixing.)

There's likely more evidence of anime in the 1st Century than there is anything RAY believes in. Then, to add salt to the wound, her asserts he's a clear thinker.

Peer review committees are often composed of the very people who are most likely to NOT grant a paper publication out of career motive.
They're composed of people with expertise in that field, ie COMPETITORS.
(disclaimer-I can only speak for the biological sciences as that's what my experiences are limited to)
#125 | POSTED BY JPW

Sorry. I don't believe in tooth fairies. Scientists, today, are heavily dependent on government grants. With few exceptions, their subject matter has to sell government in some way. That's why we've seen two farces recently: global warming and the swine flu. Many more lie below the surface.

"You have only read the Bible...."

That's right, BOB. I've read nothing else. Ye gods....

Well, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be on yours. But if you'd like to argue otherwise, I'll listen.

You act as if it's a simple dichotomy.

Has it crossed your mind that they'd have their own, separate opinion?

Nahhhh. That makes things too complicated.

And no, you won't listen.

You'll comment on how what I say is strange as if you have a monopoly on what is "normal." Then you'll point out why I am biased, without acknowledging the fact that you are biased as well.

"Why, then, do we have a cabinet level United States Department of Education (US DOE)? Does this not violate the U.S. Constitution? In a word, "yes." The US DOE was established under the Carter Administration as a political payoff to the teacher unions for their support of Jimmy Carter for president. "

That's just funny. If so, it hasn't worked out very well for those verdammt teacher's unions. The DoE and the NEA do not get along very well, at least not in the last decade or so. Ever hear of Rod Paige? Margaret whatshername? Arne Duncan? None of these people are popular with the unions.

It is certainly a factor. But still, the raison d'etre for government schools is as Mencken said, to homogenize the minds of the citizenry so they cooperate with the power of the state. Critical thinking skills enable people to think independently, their worst fear.

Bullshit.

You just need some way of rationalizing why no one else seems to believe your "independent" thoughts.

"Without acknowledging the fact that you are biased as well...."

Well, I HAVE come to a few conclusions. If that's the same as bias, then I'll own it. RAY'S job is to convince me otherwise through use of evidence. That's your job, too. Both of you need to try harder.

Sorry. I don't believe in tooth fairies. Scientists, today, are heavily dependent on government grants. With few exceptions, their subject matter has to sell government in some way. That's why we've seen two farces recently: global warming and the swine flu. Many more lie below the surface.

As usual you display nothing more than ignorance and proudly declare yourself to be full of shit.

What other lies exactly?

Please explain these to me for my amusement.

Wait, wait. The gov't schools don't teach thinking? I'm fucking cracking up here. Do you people read anything I write here? Oh, that's right: I must be a total liar, merely a tool of the gov't. (Well, according to Ray, I'm part of the problem.) Jesus fuck, I know 10th graders who can put together better arguments than some of you (though their grammar skills might not be as tight). No, we're not perfect, but to say we don't teach thinking is a bit extreme. I know I sure as fuck do.

+++++

As for private schools, again, I have done research for those near me (you know, where I could actually send my kids and still be a parent), and their costs are much, much higher than anything cited in this thread. So what can I say? Reality check--even with a 10K payment to me from the gov't (not an exemption on my taxes 'cause my taxes are what they are), I still couldn't send my kids to a private school, not around here. And--tangenting here, nothing to do with the money argument--unless my kids had problems that couldn't be addressed by my local public schools (learning disabilities, what have you), I would be a total hypocrite for sending them to a private school. (I have more than a few flaws, but hypocrisy is not among them. : ) )

Well, I HAVE come to a few conclusions.

In deed.

If that's the same as bias, then I'll own it.

Reaching conclusions is not bias. Considering the total picture, including that which you take on faith and little else, is where you see bias.

Did you find God on your own? Or were you introduced to it as a child by your parents?

RAY'S job is to convince me otherwise through use of evidence. That's your job, too. Both of you need to try harder.

It's not anyone's job.

This is a free discussion of ideas without any obligations or "jobs" of any sort.

Besides, I think what you view as evidence varies considerably from what I consider evidence.

Oh, and btw, if the schools--well, if this valedictorian's school--weren't teaching thinking, this lawsuit wouldn't have happened. He is clearly applying concepts he has learned in class, and even if it's only "Hey, this is cool; I can make waves," it's a fairly clever wave to make for a blowhard teenager. : )

Do you people read anything I write here? Oh, that's right: I must be a total liar, merely a tool of the gov't.

Of course you are. You disagree with the critical thinking expert Ray.

ME: Blah blah blah. Schools as market-based make no sense. You will never convince me otherwise. Schools cannot be, and should not be, for profit. But I'll never convince you of that. So I think we'd be better served not even trying. Whaddya say?
#134 | POSTED BY PRAGMATIST

I don't expect to. You spent your whole life in government education. You can't think any other way.

That's right, BOB. I've read nothing else. Ye gods....

#140 | Posted by Zed at 2010-03-14 08:02 PM | Reply | Flag:

What else have you read that is relevant to the discussion? What history of the bible have you studied? Who were the authors?

#139 | Posted by Ray at 2010-03-14 08:01 PM | Reply | Flag: thinks the mid-19th century is "recently"

"Did you find God on your own.....?"

My parents weren't religous. I spent most of may life, as ZAT likes to say, insufficiently interested in relgion to even call myself an atheist. But I have also been consciously an atheist. All of that seems very silly to me now.

I suggested a means to make it all OK with the Constitution.

You a means to continue interjecting your worthless rituals into places where they are not needed.

Do you know what "private" graduation ceremonies are? They're called graduation parties. If you want to pray at one, you're free to do so. A school cannot simply wave a magic wand and make its functions private, though.

You a means = You suggested a means

"Interjecting worthless rituals into places where they are not needed....."

Didn't do that, either. You must be seriously stoned.

You spent your whole life in government education. You can't think any other way.

Only Ray is capable of "thinking."

You may as well give up now, as you are clearly going against someone who is intellectually superior.

-snark off-

"...You spent your whole life in government education. ..."

And you know this because???

Open your eyes, Ray. Not all teachers are the same, and not all teachers begin teaching straight outta school.

And if you meant my own learning, you again struck out. Public HS, private college. Pretty radical college actually. And years of self-study on probably more topics than you can imagine.

So Ray, you've proven again that people who can write correct sentences can still say stupid shit.

I have been very open to you, and you keep coming back to assumptions and insults about my supposedly limited intellect or perspective. Oddly enough, here I am on the other end, still considering there could be value in some of your links. If I didn't have to spend so many hours indoctrinating youth, maybe I could look 'em up. (Fe, and if you don't know what means, to quote you, "Look it up.")

"A school can't wave a magic wand and make it's functions private...."

I'm sorry---The law that madates a school-sponsored graduation ceremony? I missed that one.

"You must be seriously stoned."

Put down the bong! A typical Drudge cliche used by people on the losing side of an argument.

Clearly, JP. Clearly. I'm getting closer to giving up entirely. But then, it can be fun to see what crazy shit he'll say next. By which I mean what variation on "I'm an independent thinker and no one else is" he'll dream up next.

You just need some way of rationalizing why no one else seems to believe your "independent" thoughts.
#143 | POSTED BY JPW

I don't really give a shit. If I did, I would be a conformist like you.

My parents weren't religous. I spent most of may life, as ZAT likes to say, insufficiently interested in relgion to even call myself an atheist. But I have also been consciously an atheist. All of that seems very silly to me now.

When and why did you become religious or a believer or whatever?

I'm not being snarky, but am genuinely curious.

If you don't want to answer (being a public forum and all...) I understand.

It would help, NULLIFIDIAN, if ZOMBIE actually described something I did. Postulating he's intoxicated does him a favor. I'm not, for example, saying he's just naturally stupid.

Zed

I would say your failure to answer my question is proof you have read nothing but the bible. Therefore, you are trying to lead through ignorance. Sadly, history has been full of such leaders, and more sadly still, they have had millions upon millions of followers who were even more ignorant than their leaders. TV preachers are a prime example.

Clearly, JP. Clearly. I'm getting closer to giving up entirely. But then, it can be fun to see what crazy shit he'll say next. By which I mean what variation on "I'm an independent thinker and no one else is" he'll dream up next.

LOL

That's really the only reason I engage him.

Amusement.

The smugger and more arrogant the better.

Occasionally he does bring something up worth looking in to though, so it's not ENTIRELY amusement. Just mostly...

So Ray, you've proven again that people who can write correct sentences can still say stupid shit.

Like I give a shit. Your mind is in a cocoon. Can't think outside the government box.

I'd say my failure to answer your question is out of sense of simple boredom. I'll tell you what---Estimate the number of books of ANY sort you've read in your lifetime. I'll just sit back and watch ZAT make fun of you.

Oh, and btw, if the schools--well, if this valedictorian's school--weren't teaching thinking, this lawsuit wouldn't have happened. He is clearly applying concepts he has learned in class, and even if it's only "Hey, this is cool; I can make waves," it's a fairly clever wave to make for a blowhard teenager. : )

#148 | Posted by pragmatist

I have to respectfully disagree. Could have been an activist anti-religious teacher, a parent or some other adult, simply using the child.

Remember the guy who sued to take under god out of the pledge did so in his daughter's name. Maybe if his daughter had been older, he would have twisted her arm instead.

I don't really give a shit. If I did, I would be a conformist like you.

You remind me of the goth kids in high school.

Convinced they're different than everyone else...in the same way ALL the other goth kids are.

You're neither unique or special, Ray. Get used to it.

I have been very open to you, and you keep coming back to assumptions and insults about my supposedly limited intellect or perspective.

It's not an IQ issue. Critical thinking is a skill.

You're neither unique or special, Ray. Get used to it.
#170 | POSTED BY JPW

I'm crushed. :(

I'd say my failure to answer your question is out of sense of simple boredom. I'll tell you what---Estimate the number of books of ANY sort you've read in your lifetime. I'll just sit back and watch ZAT make fun of you.

#168 | Posted by Zed at 2010-03-14 08:25 PM | Reply | Flag:

You call boredom---I call bullshit. You could have named an author of a book in that post. I would say that you have proven yourself a liar to most on this thread.

The law that madates a school-sponsored graduation ceremony? I missed that one.

The law mandates that no endorsements of religion occur at public school functions. The fact that you would rather cancel a function entirely than forego a bit of useless superstition only shows your pettiness.

How sour are those grapes, Zed?

"Like I give a shit. Your mind is in a cocoon. Can't think outside the government box."

Blah blah blah. That wasn't even clever this time, Ray. And you know, two days ago, despite your insults, you almost had me going to explore some of the stuff for which you offered links. But now you're back in asshole mode. (shaking head sadly)

But do me a favor--if you're gonna bother talking to me, don't assume my background or my beliefs.

+++++

"I have to respectfully disagree. Could have been an activist anti-religious teacher, a parent or some other adult, simply using the child. "

Fair enough, 1Lib. It could have been. But it could just have been him. I know enough teenagers to know that it's possible. And I seem to give them more credit than many here do.

+++++

"It's not an IQ issue. Critical thinking is a skill."

No kidding, Ray. Do you understand the English language? You have insulted my intellect, my ability to think critically (though I'm not sure that's exactly what you're asking me to do), and my perspective. Your sentence here does not respond to my comment. Admit that you have made assumption after assumption, and offended me (whether by design or otherwise, and if it wasn't by design, you're not as clever as I think you are), and maybe we can then move back to talking issues rather than talking about each other.

#175 | POSTED BY PRAGMATIST

Like I said the other day. I've gone as far with you as I can. I gave you some links that take thought in different directions. Do what you want. I don't care.

Ah, but Ray, you keep trying. You must care. Oooh, Ray cares about me. He's so sweet.

"Cancel a function...."

Didn't say that, either. Take another hit.

What I've suggested is that the "function" remain but shift venues and funding. People are then free to honor whatever traditions they wish, or none at all. They can get together and pray for their youngsters, or have a kegger and get shit-faced.

What I've suggested is that the "function" remain but shift venues and funding.

Idiot. That would entail the school canceling the function and a truly private organization taking over in their stead. That is the only way your superstitions could be incorporated into the ceremony. Why is the superstitious element important? Graduation is a day dedicated to the achievements of students, not some stale old dogma that has nothing to do with their academic or athletic achievements.

Why do the bible-thumpers feel the need to make such a production out of their rituals? Why go to the trouble of putting the function in the hands of a private organization?

Your only goal is foisting your supertisions off on the uninterested. It is not the duty of the state to appease a horde of superstitious idiots. Why pander to fools when those fools can pray on their own time in an unobtrusive fashion?

The function is not cancelled. Idiot. The function continues. Idiot. But the school doesn't do it. Idiot.

Just go to the kegger. You know you want to.

Why is the superstitious element important?

just to piss you off.

Prayer is to thank God for life, health and all his benefits to the children oof men. When you stop acknowledging your creator then you have joined the dark side that is going to be eliminated soon.
But you have every right to kill yourself if you want to, I wouldn't make that choice, since living eternally in peace and love is so much nicer than non-existance. Praise GOD!

Wow, that is neat.
I wonder how many times anyone ever praises God on this site.
Praise GOD! Jesus is wonderful! All glory to Jesus, he is my redeemer, he is lovely and I want to be with him forever!
Read your Bible and live.
Ignore your Bible and follow your pastor and die.
Promise/

Have a nice day in the LORD
Happiness is service for others.
God rules, and satan drools
Satan (Lucifer-Liar)is a dead duck walking
he is already as good as dead.
Amen Praise the Lord from whom all good things flow.

Wow that is neat.

Satan spents all his time distracting you from God.
Well, it didn't work
HERE IS GOD!
He made all things and loves you he died for you even though you don't know him.
All he wants is you to be happy.
Jesus is wonderful
Praise God, the son, the fulness of heavenly blessing!
Here the crackle?
Satans walls of isolation fall down like Jerichoes walls by faith.
YOU ARE WANTED FOR A POSTION OF PRINCE AND PRINCES OF THE UNIVERS
Those who join JEsus now will be his WIFE a special group higher than the angels
the last peole of the world who stay faithful will follow him through all eternity and never leave his side.
All you ahve to do is WANT THIS and ASK HIM FOR IT
that is all
jsut want it
and then ask for grace to follow his word in all things
that is it
and yo are so much happier than lying drugging and stealing.
Amen Prasie God.

!

Now, athiests lets see what YOU have and lets compare the last few posts
then I will ask everyone
Do you want to be happy like me?

Or derogatory cursing like the following athiests?
your choice.
Jesus can do it,.

Athiesm always takes you to a rude, obnoxious four-letter swearing dungeon lifestyle of depravity and hatred of all things good.
Jesus always takes you to the light and love of everyone

make your choice
see it here now
it is your final choice for eternity.
Amen even so come Lord Jesus.

Praise God from whom all blessings flow
Praise him all ye heavenly saints below
Praise him all ye heavenly host!
Praise father son and holy ghost!
Amen.

crackle ceackle crackle

what you gonna do athiests?
I dont wanna be like you
i want to be like Jesus too.
I hate living and being blue
I will always to God be true.

Jesus-God rules!
Lucifer drools!

Why do the bible-thumpers feel the need to make such a production out of their rituals?

For the exact same reason that you bible-humpers try to attack GOD at every possible opportunity.

Why go to the trouble of putting the function in the hands of a private organization?

Better yet, put the whole damn thing in private hands, from K - college. Get the govt out of creating little puppets.

Your only goal is foisting your supertisions off on the uninterested.

So are yours, you just have different beliefs. Christians believe the universe is ordered. You prefer to believe that it just "happened", order from Chaos. Can't say that either belief will be proven until after death. And, if you are right, not even then.

It is not the duty of the state to appease a horde of superstitious idiots.

True, but you want them to appease your idiotic and unproven beliefs, and not someone else's. Different beliefs, same type of idiot.

Why pander to fools when those fools can pray on their own time in an unobtrusive fashion?

#180 | Posted by ZombieHunter

Why pander to fools who believe in nothing... they can contemplate nothingness while they burn in hell.

Come live WITH ME FOREVER and be my neighbor
We will explore an INFINITE universe where we travel at the speed of thought doing good deeds for the angels and beings around the universe forever!

Better than any comic book, it is real.
Wonderful food and friends and pets and animals. I will have greyhounds and a lion or too at my house.
and I will play violin all day.

it willl be great, I'll take you to meet Bach.
c'mon it is true, star trek is false.
get with the reality.

Now for the atom bomb the one that wipes out satans kingdom forever
remember this if you dont remember anything else.

Satan is bound by the word of God (Bible)
When you quote a scripture Satan cannor fight you.
When you resist him he HAS TO LEAVE YOU FAR AWAY.

every temptaition to sin all you say is
"RESIST THE DEVIL AND HE WILL FLEE FROM YOU"

This is the hydrogen bomb against satan
he CANNOT RESIST HE HAS TO LEAVE AT ANY TIME

REMEBER IT

and here is number two

"If ANY MAN (OR WOMAN) comes to me, I(JESUS) will NOT CAST HIM OUT!"

Say it and it is so.

and finally

"I CAN DO ALL THINGS THROUGH CHRIST WHICH STRENGTHENETH ME"

these three will get you saved just say all three continuaously every day.

amen
even so come Lord Jesus.

I changed my mind--

This would be better--

When the dude walks up to the podium to give his V-Speech---all the other grads-to-be should start reciting the Lord's Prayer..

Now that would be one heckava graduation ceremony.

lol

Praie GOD!
What INCREDIBLE DAMAGE was just wrought to satans kingdom of sand.
He is a dead duck walking anyway
who cares what he does.
Amen even so come LORD JESUS

FOlks, this summer is it.
You ahve aabout three months to read your Bible through once, do it
4 chapters in old testament and 4 chapters in new and ask
What does God want me to do as you reead it

and then just do that reading for today right away
GUARANTEED SALVATION if you ask for Jesus liek this.
three months

you may not be here THIS FALL!

About half the world won't be...

You certainly will not be here in 2012 at all

You could be in heaven with me.

Love you.

When the dude walks up to the podium to give his V-Speech---all the other grads-to-be should start reciting the Lord's Prayer..

Yeah, be completely disrespectful and petty just because someone doesn't prescribe to your beliefs.

That'd be one heckuva Christian thing to do.

And you wonder why some react so vehemently to your mere presence?

RichardRhine,

Are you drunk again?

"c'mon it is true, star trek is false."

Has anyone ever seriously suggested that Star Trek is true? Um, it's fiction; yep, check, we know.

As for the Bible, there are some damned good stories in there, too. Touching, moving, and marvelous. And some horrifying ones, too.

Hey, Richard--2012? Are you suggesting that the Mayas and the Christians are in agreement on the timing of the end of the world? Wow. New one to me.

"This "child" is 18 years old. What is it about Christians that they insist on infantilizing young adults?
#15 | Posted by nullifidian"

There is a priest joke in there somewhere.

#193

The Valedictorian should respond by giving them the middle finger. Mooning would be too much.

"The Valedictorian should respond by giving them teh middle finger...."

That's what his law suit is about.

I'm waiting for the first public school or city meeting to start by quoting Daniel P Coughlin or Barry C Black.

It's time the gov't decide whether the 1st Amendment meant Separation of Church and State or that the gov't cannot determine which religion everyone must follow.

I could just see the court case.

"We quoted the words of Daniel P Coughlin and Barry C Black before at the beginning of the meeting/graduation. What's wrong with that. These two men are PAID FEDERAL GOV'T EMPLOYEES saying PRAYERS in the House and Senate."

"But, the Constitution states that the House and Senate may choose their own Officers."

"True, but the 1st Amendment to the Constitution is an AMENDMENT. Which means, it DOES apply to the House and Senate. If the House and Senate aren't violating the Constitution, then all these previous cases before are hogwash."

"Then there's only one thing to do. Save the people money and remove the Chaplains of the Legislature and their staffs due to the Unconstitutionality of their positions"

Techinically, the kid is probably right. But I really don't get all these douches who freak out about prayer. I think prayer is pretty much nonsense but if other people want to do it, let them knock themselves out. If it isn't bothering me and if makes someone else happy the only reason I'd have to file a lawsuit is because I can. And causing other people grief simply because you can makes you a douche.

On the other hand, those of you saying to punish all the students by cancelling the graduation are small minded and petty as well. "I can't get my way so ruin it for everyone." Grow up.

I have no problem with people praying either, just not on my time. When you are in a ceremony, you have to waste precious time watching as others pray. There are only 24 hours in a day, no sense wasting my time with your prayer.

"I have no problem with people praying either, just not on my time. When you are in a ceremony, you have to waste precious time watching as others pray. There are only 24 hours in a day, no sense wasting my time with your prayer."

That's just an excuse to be a whiner. The graduation ceremony is not about you. Only a douche goes to someone else's graduation with hundreds of other people there and considers it "his time". As Spiccoli would point out, if you are spending it with other people, it isn't just your time. 30 seconds of prayer doesn't affect the amount of time scheduled for event anyway.

The kid's your typical whiney ass atheist (just check out this thread lol), but this is already a decided matter; the school shouldn't have given him reason to whine in the first place.

I'm an atheist, and I seldom whine. (I also wouldn't make a big deal about this, but I don't question the lad's motives the way many here do.) Oh, and I don't do the Pledge of Allegiance either. I have no use for a fealty oath.

RE: Whining

If blogs were around in the 1950's people would be complaining about that whiner Rosa Pakr making such a big fuss about giving the white man his seat. "Just give up the seat and be done with it" people would probabl write.

If blogs were around in the 1950's people would be complaining about that whiner Rosa Pakr making such a big fuss about giving the white man his seat. "Just give up the seat and be done with it" people would probabl write.

#208 | Posted by mitch at 2010-03-15 11:05 AM

I'm an atheist, and I seldom whine.
#207 | Posted by pragmatist at 2010-03-15 11:00 AM

"If blogs were around in the 1950's people would be complaining about that whiner Rosa Pakr making such a big fuss about giving the white man his seat. "Just give up the seat and be done with it" people would probabl write."

Some people would have.

But that has no relevance here as your comparison is as ridiculous as the first legal male prostitute comparing himself to Rosa Parks. Both comparisons betray an extreme ignorance as to what Rosa parks was standing up against. This kid isn't living under a generations old system of apartheid that severely limits his quality of life. He's complaining about a hundred people babbling inconsequentially for 30 seconds simply because he can.

If blogs were around in the 1950's it would not have taken 20 years to pass the civil rights bills. You would have "live blogging" from the riot, opinions written about all sides, and outrage directed at the White House pressing for action sooner.

If blogs were around in the 1950's RCade could have gotten started early and would have figured out how to implement kill files by now.

Blogger sues Rc-de to stop "kill files" would be his next headline.

The non-whiney atheist, an endangered species.

#210 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE

If anyone whines it's Christians claiming there is a war on Christmas, which is realy a myth.

If anyone whines it's Christians claiming there is a war on Christmas, which is realy a myth.

#215 | Posted by mitch at 2010-03-15 01:04 PM | Flag: Whines Like a Christian; Thinks He's Rosa Parks

"I have no use for a fealty oath."

#207 | Posted by pragmatist

You may have no use for one now however "fealty oaths" do have there use and it is positive.

They tend to be dismissed as quaint when the biggest concern we have is the temperature of the room or the coffee being too hot.

"fealty oaths" gain a little weight when the barbarians are at the gate:)

"You may have no use for one now however "fealty oaths" do have there use and it is positive."

Only when the society that uses them has honor, holds a code of honor up as being paramount. We don't have that now. If we believed in oaths, we wouldn't have so many divorces. : ) And no, I don't believe in them--we don't live in the Middle Ages.

"They tend to be dismissed as quaint when the biggest concern we have is the temperature of the room or the coffee being too hot.
"fealty oaths" gain a little weight when the barbarians are at the gate:)"

What are you getting at exactly? I knew agreement couldn't last, but before I take you up on combat, I'd like to know what we're arguing about. Heh.

In any case, I'd rather be judged by my actions than my words. Words can be empty. Though I am a liberal (yep, self-proclaimed), I am also as my handle indicates, and I believe that dissent is a very high form of patriotism. So fealty doesn't make sense to me. I'm with Chesterton on nationalism: ""My country, right or wrong" is a thing no patriot would ever think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying "My mother, drunk or sober." Though I like the words to Carl Schurz as well: "Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right; when wrong, to be be put right."

My point is words do mean something.

"Words are, of course, the most powerful drug used by mankind." -Rudyard Kipling

I know you are "too cool for school":) however even Mick Jagger couldn't resist one of those "fealty oaths". Sir Michael Phillip Jagger

Come on now I know your all grown up and everything however deep down isn't there just a little piece of you left that wouldn't like to kneel down and have the Queen of England place a sword on each side of your shoulders? Knight Pragmatist! Has a nice ring to it doesn't it?

That's Sir Prag, Earl of Effectif, Lord of the High Actuality, if you please.

Of course, words mean something. That's why I don't like it--the words mean little, or mean something most speakers don't actually seem to understand (and no, I'm not talking about the "under God" nonsense--doesn't bother me at all; the whole damned thing bothers me : ) ).

What was "the barbarians at the gate" part about, other than a good allusion?

"That's Sir Prag, Earl of Effectif, Lord of the High Actuality, if you please."

I will grant this if you kneel before me:)

"What was "the barbarians at the gate" part about, other than a good allusion?"

Sometimes during difficult times, especially during difficult times, the oaths that we take give us an extra "kick in the ass" to maintain the original course. Focus is the key, oaths help people maintain this focus. They help us recognize something larger than ourselves. If one believes in "God" a cause, a country etc...it makes no difference whether their is one or not. The only thing that matters is the power one gets from not focusing on their self whom they know all too well to be flawed. It is when they focus on there selves that excuses are made for failure. "oh I am only human" "of course I can't do it". Give a man a cause, tap him on the shoulder with a sword, knight him and stand the fuck by and watch him do the "impossible".

Thanks, Dirk. I get your point better now. That said, I think the ideals of the pledge are appropriate and true to the ideals (if not always the practice) of our country. And I try to live them. I think it's the wording that gets me: allegiance, flag... Sometimes I wonder, Where's the king in all this? : ) And I think we (thought we) threw off the monarchy in the 1770s... : ) (Yes, I understand better than I'm pretending. I'm playing rhetorical games here, but I believe what I'm getting at. I'm also multitasking, and it's possible I'm not making much sense.)

But I'm happy to have had a civil exchange with our resident poster whose name means "dagger."

If the school insists on the prayer, the students who don't approve of state sanctioned religion should ignore it and exercise their first amendment right of free speech by conversing with their fellow graduates during the government endorsed talk-to-Jesus. Or they could just start singing their favorite Lady Gaga song. Or they could loudly recite the first amendment in unison.

Scottish Dagger my friend!

if the little godless cumstain dosnt want to have a prayer at his day of glory then the answer is simple then and ive not seed any of the above posts adress it-------He has a choice He dosnt have to attend the ceramony simple as that no one is forceing him to attend so make a big statement and dont attend your day of glory.

FTA: "If I lived in a Muslim nation, a Hindu nation or anything else, I would expect to go along with the majority," Rutherford said. "He's trying to go with minority rule. To me, that's wrong in a democracy, one that was founded on Christian principles."

* facepalm *

Coupla things.

First, America is NOT a Christian nation.

Informed by Judeo-Christian principles? Sure. But the Founding Fathers went out of their way to ensure that there was no official state religion.

Second, America was also founded on the idea that the "tyranny of the majority" was not to be allowed and this kinda thing defeats that.

Are there examples of prayer in government that seem to defy the idea of separation of church and state?

Hellz yeah, from prayer breakfasts to the Red Mass celebrated before every new SCOTUS session to "faith Based Initiatives" etc.

Doesn't make 'em right.

Just proves how insistently insidious religion is in the US.

Mostly southern states doing an end around the illegality of school prayer by inviting religious speakers to attend graduation ceremonies is just another exam[ple of this.

Spudpoints to both the ACLU and this brave 18 year old fer calling shenanigans on the use of this sketchy tactic.

Be Well.