Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs
Tuesday, March 09, 2010

Sens. Chuck Schumer (D.-N.Y.) and Lindsey Graham (R.-S.C.) are working on a bill to prevent employers from hiring illegal immigrants: a national biometric identification card all American workers would eventually be required to obtain. Under the plan, all legal U.S. workers would be issued an ID card with embedded information, such as fingerprints, to tie the card to the worker. "It is fundamentally a massive invasion of people's privacy," said Chris Calabrese, legislative counsel for the American Civil Liberties Union.

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we are all being tracked and tagged to an extent we probably cant comprehend. honest people will have to put up with another inconvenience and dishonest people will figure a way around the system.

How much money is that going to cost. I thought we where in a GD recession.

Fuck you, Commie!

a national biometric identification card all American workers would eventually be required to obtain.

As always, this is one of the few times Biblical paranoia saves us from ourselves as they really freak everytime this "mark of the Beast" is brought up.

I'm with you ron. I don't care if it doesn't cost a dime, it is bullshit.

I don't have a problem with it if they don't make all the illegals legal---otherwise, what's the point other then ratcheting up our paranoia.

Biometric IDs aren't for the illegals folks...they are for you...just like every piece of draconian "anti-terror" legislation that is passed that just happens to have loopholes to include American citizens.

Workers' IDs are nothing new in this country. Miami Beach required them years ago (maybe the still do?).

Everyone is required to have a drivers license to operate a motor vehicle. (No mark of the beast nonsense there.)

Why aren't the Mexican haters all giddy about this proposal that would actually do something about illegal immigrants? If they couldn't work, they wouldn't be crossing the borders.

Seems the pants pissers just want to piss, regardless of the issue.

We already have a system to prevent employers from hiring illegals. They ignore it. Perhaps enforcement of the existing policies using the existing tools is worth a try.

A great thing about being an American is that here in the great US of A we don't have to show our "papers" to anyone. We are not required to carry any identification of any sort. (Obviously paperwork is needed for certain privleged activities such as driving or international travel.) The notion of some Kommisar or fascist police officer demanding our "papers" smacks of dictatorship. In America, a person minding their own business and not hurting anything should not be required to prove who they are or what they are doing simply cuz the government wants to know.

Having said that, I am not offended by appropriate paperwork being required by employers to job applicants. The right to employ someone is a privledge. It is an activity already regulated by tomes full of statutes. Requiring the employer to confirm that the applicant for a job actually is legally entitled to perform the job under US law should not offend anyone.

"A great thing about being an American is that here in the great US of A we don't have to show our "papers" to anyone."

Police ask people for their ID all the time. It might not be completely legal but they still do it and if you don't comply they know how to make you wish you had.

Every time I pass through an airport they scan the bar code on my passport -- and then usually collect fingerprints for cross-matching. Some airports now have signs saying they will soon begin using retina scans.

So what? How is my privacy affected? Every time I touch something -- door, coffee cup, flashlight, handrail -- I'm already leaving my fingerprints.

Bad people will find a way around it, but I'm delighted to make the lives of bad people inconvenient. It also creates one more variable for them.

Biometric finger print IDs can already be cracked. Hardly "tamper proof."

'Big Brother' meets the 'Nanny State'.

Biometric finger print IDs can already be cracked.

My key ring full of thumbs is starting to stink...

When will you have to use the ID. Is it just for workers or to keep track of everything you do.

Basically, Vernon and Graham are right. The idea of a non-intrusive Government has been over for generations. Might as well go all the way. Those who value security over freedom won the battle a long time ago.

My key ring full of thumbs is starting to stink...

Be glad that biometric data doesn't include retinal scans.

Bad people will find a way around it, but I'm delighted to make the lives of bad people inconvenient. It also creates one more variable for them.

If by "inconvenient" and "variable" to the bad guys you mean "new stream of revenue" for the bad guys, then I agree with you.

Just because some freedoms are reduced for protection does not mean that the American people should just give up whatever freedoms we have left.

this and the mcain-liberman bill would push the republic into a dictatorship.

Seems like up until now we have willingly sacrificed anything we were told we needed to in order to be safe from terrorists, meanwhile we leave the borders wide open for undocumented aliens to enter the country at will. Somehow I doubt that these cards would accomplish their stated intent but would coincidentally be used in other ways we don't even consider.

I am against this type of ID. How about if instead of more Big Brother Government, they just require all employers to use e-verify and send undercover officers posing as illegals and arrest employers who try to hire then anyways and show the perp walk in the 6 o'clock news? Just sayin', it might work and there is not need for biometrics or any of that crap.

Leave it to Chuck U Schumer and Senator Grahamnesty to fuck things up!

Businesses who try to hire illegals should be forced to have a sign in front of their door stating that they attempted to violated immigration law, then people could voted with their feet and wallets.

Those who value security over freedom won the battle a long time ago.

#17 | Posted by TFDNihilist at 2010-03-09 12:43 PM | Reply | Flag:

I routinely travel to a number of countries with my American passport. I move about within those countries with ease.

How has my freedom been reduced?

In fact, with a security system than gains public confidence, I have more freedom of travel and movement.

You can't even rent a Rent-A-Wreck without a credit card and drivers license. Banks require all sorts of things just to cash a check for a non-customer.

If you write a check at Safeway do you freak out when they ask for ID?

My key ring full of thumbs is starting to stink...

#15 | Posted by ZombieHunter at 2010-03-09 12:36 PM

Whoa man, you're making it more difficult than it needs to be.

www.engadget.com

So how'd they do it? By copying the master fingerprint onto a piece of latex and attaching it to his thumb, Adam Savage was able to open the lock without a problem.

I'm with you ron. .....
#5 | Posted by Sniper at 2010-03-09 12:03 PM | Reply

a phrase I never thought I would read...yuk yuk

Leave it to fascist Vern to be all gung ho in favor more governmental control of our lives. Since it happens only incrementally he doesn't even realize it is happening. Or, even worse, he argues that since we are already so controlled by government, what's a little bit more control?

Completely anecdotal, but my bro-in-law who works in information security said that fake prints sometime work better on scanners than real prints.

Seems like up until now we have willingly sacrificed anything we were told we needed to in order to be safe from terrorists, meanwhile we leave the borders wide open for undocumented aliens to enter the country at will.

Which is the exact reason that the War on Terror is and always will be a farce. Anyone who believes that we're in Iraq and Afghanistan to protect our freedoms without addressing the above statement needs to take a hard look at what we're doing in this country.

but I dont like this either..
anything dreamed up by these two knuckleheads needs to be looked at with a REALLY close look to say the least...

AND SCHUMER...for Gods sake...do something about that stupid hairdo .....

iraq....can I say that I disagree....

I disagree..
there I said it anyway...so can tell us where the 9/11 planners were living at the time...
we can certainly argue about iraq but al quada in afghanistan I thought was something both sides agreed on...

Leave it to fascist Vern to be all gung ho in favor more governmental control of our lives. Since it happens only incrementally he doesn't even realize it is happening. Or, even worse, he argues that since we are already so controlled by government, what's a little bit more control?

#29 | Posted by moder8 at 2010-03-09 01:00 PM

And yet you're "not offended" by requiring that every American worker carry a set of their fingerprints embedded in a biometric ID card. lol! If Vern is fascist, you're fascist-lite.

We already have a system to prevent employers from hiring illegals.

#9 | Posted by Sully

The SS chech they have started is another government failure. They can't do anything right including collecting taxes from government workers.

They can't do anything right
#35 | Posted by Sniper

Tell that to the people who manufactured your ankle monitor.

LoD: I think I made clear that I am offended by requiring Americans to carry any form of ID. If you want to engage in certain privledged activities such as driving, international travel or buy a gun in most States, proof of identity is the price you pay. But nobody, certainly not the government, requires you to engage in those activities. I do however, acknowledge that employment is different from the above named activities. And I do agree with your implicit point that even a one-time requirement of presenting an id to an employer is intrusive and obnoxious. Sadly, we have reached the juncture where such an infringement is less obnoxious than the alternative.

so then we should take away id from everything?
the people who go apeshit over photo id on election day for instance...dont they gladly use that for getting other shit?

and if the govt is about to tell you that you HAVE to buy health insurance, cant they tell you what to do and say and have and be?

"A great thing about being an American is that here in the great US of A we don't have to show our "papers" to anyone."

Actually, I visited in and lived 37 of the 50 states and I can say that in all but 1 it was a law to carry either a drivers license or state id, failure to do so carried a fine and potential jail time. Plus, that was enough for the officer to handcuff you and perform searches on your person and/or vehicle. The only time I was able to avoid giving such info was when I pretended to be my friends drunk retarded brother.

... in all but 1 it was a law to carry either a drivers license or state id...

I could be remembering this wrong, but it seems there was a USSC case in the mid '80s or so that ruled that people were not obliged to carry and produce ID on demand. I may look that one up later. I'm not in the google mood now.

RichardSpirit: I am unaware of any law in any State which requires an American to carry ID when in public. I acknowledge that they may exist without me knowing it, but I am very doubtful. Please cite me such a law. And I don't mean a drivers licence while driving or something along those lines. I mean a law, any law, requiring an American to carry an ID while minding their own business in some public place. For example, sitting on a park bench in the middle of the afternoon.

And I do agree with your implicit point that even a one-time requirement of presenting an id to an employer is intrusive and obnoxious. Sadly, we have reached the juncture where such an infringement is less obnoxious than the alternative.

#37 | Posted by moder8 at 2010-03-09 01:18 PM

I think if we were serious about illegal immigrants obtaining work in the states, we would have harsh penalties for the employer (or enforce what we already have). This is just putting more of the burden on regular people. The more information we're required to keep stored by the government, the more opportunity for abuse or theft, which could result in the very thing you're trying to prevent.

Many places have forms of "vagrancy" laws require a minimum amount of money sometimes as well as the ability to produce ID.

BUT...have you been told to give someone your SS number and said no that you werent required to do that for anything???

makes the teller or person go batty. and THEN tell you that whatever it is you are asking for...you are denied...

I believe this is one of the rare times you are right, m8. I don't think laws that compel indentification are Constitutional

In some states, there are stop and identify statutes which make it illegal to not properly verbally identify oneself to a law enforcement official.
Notice the word "verbally". Doesn't mention written docs.

en.wikipedia.org

Moder8

en.wikipedia.org

While the details, enforcement and interpretations vary from state to state here is some examples.

The laws that govern a person's obligations in a state or local jurisdiction with a "stop and identify" law may not be obvious. Hiibel's conviction depended on two different laws:

1. Nevada Revised Statutes (NRS) 171.123(3), which requires a person to identify himself, but does not provide a penalty for failure to do so.
2. NRS 199.280, which provides a penalty for a person who "... willfully resists, delays or obstructs a public officer in discharging or attempting to discharge any legal duty of his office ..."

The Justice Court of Union Township, Nevada, determined that Hiibel's refusal to identify himself[22] constituted a violation of NRS 199.280, the offense of which he was convicted.

The wording of both "stop and identify" laws and "obstructing" laws varies among the states that have enacted such laws. For example, New York's "stop and identify" law[23] allows a police officer to demand that a suspect identify himself but does not explicitly require the suspect to comply, and its "obstructing" law[24] apparently requires physical rather than simply verbal obstruction.[25] Laws in different states that appear to be nearly identical may be different in effect because of interpretations by state courts. For example, California's "stop and identify" law, Penal Code 647(e) had wording[26] similar to the Nevada law upheld in Hiibel, but a California appellate court, in People v. Solomon (1973) , 33 Cal.App.3d 429 construed the law to require "credible and reliable" identification that carries a "reasonable assurance" of its authenticity. Using this construction, the U.S. Supreme Court held the law to be void for vagueness in Kolender v. Lawson, 461 U.S. 352 (1983).[27]

Some "stop and identify" laws, such as Colorado's,[28] require a person detained to provide additional information, including an address and written identification if it is available. The wording of the Colorado law is similar to New York's in that it does not appear to impose a duty on the suspect; likewise, a violation of the Colorado "obstructing" law appears to require use or threat of use of physical force. However, the Colorado Supreme Court held in Dempsey v. People, No. 04SC362 (2005) (PDF) that refusing to provide identification was an element in the "totality of the circumstances" that could constitute obstructing a police officer, even when actual physical interference was not employed.[29] As of January 2010, the validity of a law requiring that a person detained do anything more than state his name has not come before the U.S. Supreme Court.

or they could make the ID into an anally inserted suppository and it will say Patriot II on it, which makes it OK.

Rare times I am right? LOL. This from Goatman? Okay.

As with many laws that violate our rights they are not so straight forward but allow flexible interpretation that can be used to violate our rights.

Much how simple teenage vandalism is now considered acts of terrorism.

Plus, its really hard to argue with the man who has a nightstick in your back. I have lived in neighborhoods where I was stopped and searched at least twice a week. Most often the excuse some minor thing like one time I wasn't walking against the flow of traffic because there was no sidewalks.

RichardSpirit: Not to get too uber-technical about this point, but here in California we have Penal Code section 148 which involves delaying or obstructing an officer during legal discharge of his duties. Nevada's law is based on California's law. In both cases, before a person can be charged with a violation, it must be demonstrated that the officer had a legitimate reason ("probable cause") to be contacting the person they sought to identify in the first place. Section 148 charges are thrown out of court here in California all the time because the cop had no business hassling the person in the first place.

MODER8

While technically that may be true however that doesn't stop the convictions;

The Justice Court of Union Township, Nevada, determined that Hiibel's refusal to identify himself[22] constituted a violation of NRS 199.280, the offense of which he was convicted.

How am I supposed to know if the cop is lawfully carrying out his duties? What if he is looking for someone? Is my refusal to not identify preventing his search? All I know is that I am minding my own business and suddenly this cop is demanding me to identify myself.

Wonderful! Sounds almost like no one can buy or sell unless they wear some mark!

You have the right to remain silent.

DAMN zat..

please follow your own advice.

I routinely travel to a number of countries with my American passport. I move about within those countries with ease.

That's International travel, which is a different story.


How has my freedom been reduced?
#26 | Posted by vernon

Well, you're only traveling with their permission. They could decide to keep you from going to where you want to anytime they choose. If your name turned up on some list or another say.

or they could make the ID into an anally inserted suppository and it will say Patriot II on it, which makes it OK.

#48 | Posted by AuntieSocial

But, if you do that then AFKbabble will want a dozen.

you have the right to do as you are told.

go where you are told.

etc.

FREEDOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

For the Nevada case, the guy could have just stated his name, without any paperwork, and would have been ok.
Writing for the Court in Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada, Justice Kennedy stated:

"Here the Nevada statute is narrower and more precise. The statute in Kolender had been interpreted to require a suspect to give the officer credible and reliable' identification. In contrast, the Nevada Supreme Court has interpreted NRS 171.123(3) to require only that a suspect disclose his name." 542 U.S. 177, at 184185

Justice Kennedy continued:

"As we understand it, the statute does not require a suspect to give the officer a drivers license or any other document. Provided that the suspect either states his name or communicates it to the officer by other meansa choice, we assume, that the suspect may makethe statute is satisfied and no violation occurs." 542 U.S. 177, at 185

Writing for the Nevada Supreme Court in Hiibel v. Dist. Ct., Chief Justice Young said:

"The suspect is not required to provide private details about his background, but merely to state his name to an officer when reasonable suspicion exists." 118 Nev. 868, at 875

Besides all the privacy issues, the biometric cards are a NIGHTMARE. Commercial marine employees/operators face logisitic nightmares getting these cards. AND paying for the card readers is off the charts.

FUNNY how the gov doesn't acknowledge this FACT.

www.workboat.com

www.trackitt.com

Some truck drivers, dockworkers and others, however, have complaints. They say that the application fee is too high, that computer crashes and other problems have caused frequent delays at enrollment offices, and that the card duplicates other required permits and licenses.

"It's outrageous," said Joe Rajkovacz, regulatory affairs specialist at the Owner-Operator Independent Drivers Assn., which represents 160,000 truck drivers. "The whole thing is a joke."

It is being reported that this is a gateway for illegals already here to be granted amnesty.

Seems like up until now we have willingly sacrificed anything we were told we needed to in order to be safe from terrorists, meanwhile we leave the borders wide open for undocumented aliens to enter the country at will. Somehow I doubt that these cards would accomplish their stated intent but would coincidentally be used in other ways we don't even consider.

#22 | Posted by danni

I'll be damned. another thing we agree on dan. Until they close our borders, nothing will do any good. Down here in the valley of the sun, our border is only a 3 strand barb wire fence. The big fence you see in border wars quits a little ways out of town.

Hate to tell you folks but Biometric ID cards have been around since at least 1995. NY Welfare recipients use them for Medicaid and other things. When you sign up for welfare they take your two index finger prints and store them in a data base. The minutia data is written into a 500kb string which is programmed into the cards magnetic data strip. Any service you get through medicaid will require you to swipe your card and then they verify that it's you by scanning your index finger too. This cuts down a lot on people loaning out their cards to let their cousin take his kids to the DR.

I ran the rollout and implementation in lower NY for the Vendor Morpho Systems, Now Sagem Morpho.

Anyway, No big deal really. Eventually everything will be on one card.

We put an even scarier system in in Malaysia. Everyone in the country has the everything card. It has your ID and your debit account on the one card. Everywhere you go you swipe...

coolest thing I ever saw.... If your wife thinks you are a little late getting home from work she can actually call a number... The guy on the other end will tell your wife where you last swiped. Yes lady he should be home soon he just passed through the subway at 110th street ten minutes ago....

It is efficient

The old women in the welfare centers in NYC used to call me the Anti Christ....

I used to smile and say Yes Mam

Hate to tell you folks but Biometric ID cards have been around since at least 1995. NY Welfare recipients use them for Medicaid and other things. When you sign up for welfare they take your two index finger prints and store them in a data base. The minutia data is written into a 500kb string which is programmed into the cards magnetic data strip. Any service you get through medicaid will require you to swipe your card and then they verify that it's you by scanning your index finger too. This cuts down a lot on people loaning out their cards to let their cousin take his kids to the DR.

I ran the rollout and implementation in lower NY for the Vendor Morpho Systems, Now Sagem Morpho.

Anyway, No big deal really. Eventually everything will be on one card.

We put an even scarier system in in Malaysia. Everyone in the country has the everything card. It has your ID and your debit account on the one card. Everywhere you go you swipe...

coolest thing I ever saw.... If your wife thinks you are a little late getting home from work she can actually call a number... The guy on the other end will tell your wife where you last swiped. Yes lady he should be home soon he just passed through the subway at 110th street ten minutes ago....

It is efficient

The old women in the welfare centers in NYC used to call me the Anti Christ....

I used to smile and say Yes Mam

Hate to tell you folks but Biometric ID cards have been around since at least 1995. NY Welfare recipients use them for Medicaid and other things. When you sign up for welfare they take your two index finger prints and store them in a data base. The minutia data is written into a 500kb string which is programmed into the cards magnetic data strip. Any service you get through medicaid will require you to swipe your card and then they verify that it's you by scanning your index finger too. This cuts down a lot on people loaning out their cards to let their cousin take his kids to the DR.

I ran the rollout and implementation in lower NY for the Vendor Morpho Systems, Now Sagem Morpho.

Anyway, No big deal really. Eventually everything will be on one card.

We put an even scarier system in in Malaysia. Everyone in the country has the everything card. It has your ID and your debit account on the one card. Everywhere you go you swipe...

coolest thing I ever saw.... If your wife thinks you are a little late getting home from work she can actually call a number... The guy on the other end will tell your wife where you last swiped. Yes lady he should be home soon he just passed through the subway at 110th street ten minutes ago....

It is efficient

The old women in the welfare centers in NYC used to call me the Anti Christ....

I used to smile and say Yes Mam

Sorry the damn page post button is screwy

In any event with the Bio Card Identity theft would be almost completely impossible

Hey RCADE could you please delete the extras? Sorry bout that.

Also did all of England and France with the Law enforcement AFIS Systems too.... England is a pretty locked down country these days.... Between the cameras and the other technology you need to line the walls of your bathroom with lead so the Queen cant see or hear you wipe your ass....

The wording of the Colorado law is similar to New York's in that it does not appear to impose a duty on the suspect

In new York it doesn't matter anymore. They don't even really care what name you give them until after they finger print you... You can give any name you like.... But, If you have ever been arrested in the past, They will know who you are within 20 minutes after they fingerprint you on the Live Scan System.

I ran that one for the vendor too.... Morpho Systems Also... Maybe I am the Anti Christ....

If you get arrested in any state you are fingerprinted. Two and sometimes three cards are printed, A Police Card, An FBI Card and a State Card. Three sets of fingerprints. The FBI Cards are sent to the FBI its red and white and has your prints on it. They scan that into their database. In fact the FBI now has a Fingerprint database of almost everyone ever arrested in the US. In NYC they have the ability to search that database in minutes... They can also search the NYC and New York State Database. You can't fool the system man... They catch you every time.

Hint... If you have ever been arrested never leave a single finger print behind at a crime scene.... They will be at your house in under an hour..... So If you shoot someone... Don't drop the gun.... If you rob a bank better wear gloves... You Will Get Caught.

But if you are not arrested, if you have done nothing wrong, why should the govt have the right to track you? Damn, Man, all this time (well, under a week), I thought you were a conservative.

#37 | Posted by moder8 at 2010-03-09 01:18 PM | Reply | Flag:

115 words just to say "Vernon is correct"

Next comes the implanted chip. And the sheep will take it willingly.

Love Your Servitude!

Aldus Huxley gave a speech entitled: The Ultimate Revolution on March 20, 1962 at the Berkeley Language Center.
www.youtube.com

Next comes the implanted chip. And the sheep will take it willingly.

Love Your Servitude!

From our favorite resident of the People's Republic of Denmarch!

And the sheep will take it willingly.
#74 | Posted by vernon| Flag: WEIRD

Why don't they take half of the DEA and turn it into an agency to enforce immigration laws. At least then those worthless bastards would be doing something useful for a change.

Danni,

Rightocenter would probably put that post on the 'Moment of Clarity Award' short-list.

okay I dont like it either that much but at least think about some positives.
national security...couldnt get in country without it.
dont treat at hospitals without it..

and et cetera, et cetera....

but then there is always the idea of big brother knowing your every move and other info...you know sort of like questions from the upcoming census..
which by the way, there is a move here to tell people just what legally they have to answer on that form..
one radio guy said all you have to give them is your name and how many people live there.

interesting stuff....

Afk--

Do you _have to_ tell the gov't anything in the census? I mean, by law? Or by enforcement?

If you do, why are there all these ads reminding people to participate? Why wouldn't the ads state that we MUST participate?

Do you _have to_ tell the gov't anything in the census? I mean, by law?

Yes

4. Is completing the Economic Census mandatory?
Yes. Federal law requires you to complete your Economic Census form and return it to the Census Bureau. The United States Code, Title 13, establishes these requirements...
bhs.econ.census.gov

Representation and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers ... . The actual Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years, in such Manner as they shall by Law direct."

-- Article I, Section 2 of the Constitution of the United States

prag

right now all I know is what this afternoon radio guy is doing...he is getting lawyers to come on the show and tell you just what you legally HAVE to put down...of course he does say that he isnt repsonsible if you get fined or such which always leaves me wondering a little

yesterday he said he was told that you legally dont have to even tell them how many people live there but then another lawyer called in and said yes you do but that and your name and address is all they can legally require of you...
not how much you make or how many toilets you have and the stuff like that..

AS ALWAYS In the name of reporting and the public good, I will keep you ABREAST of the situation.

post 80

so we should or should not seperate the 'economic census' from the form we will be getting soon

AT THE OUTRAGEous expense that it is in the BILLIONS and the millions they are spending to TELL you that they are spending billions on the census.

so let me ask this
lets say this CARD thing passes...could you just scan this card for the census? or something like that?
I mean if they know who you are and how much you make and all that..why do they need the guys witht he clipboards?

Thanks, Goat. And Afk. Oh, and Afk, the lawyer says that 'cause he has to. It's called CYA. He's on a radio show, not in his office.

First off they dont have to carry the card they need to show it for employment. Second if finger prints arent the way to go biometrics could mean lots of things that would make it hard to reproduce, much harder than the current system.

Two if it would help to make sure wages and benefits arent being made illegally by the employeer or employee its a win for all legal workers.

Third is that this is a start and would help so we dont speed billions on a border fence that woud give a false sense of security.

Fourth if they require this for education, welfare, housing, driver license, and other government hand outs we could eliminate the illegal aliens interest in coming here in the first place.

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