Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs
Tuesday, March 09, 2010

Self-proclaimed waterboarding fan Dick Cheney called it a no-brainer in a 2006 radio interview: Terror suspects should get a "a dunk in the water." But recently released CIA internal documents show how Dick Cheney's proscribed techniques for waterboarding prisoners was even crueller than previously thought and much more brutal than he described.

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FTA: The documents also lay out, in chilling detail, exactly what should occur in each two-hour waterboarding "session." Interrogators were instructed to start pouring water right after a detainee exhaled, to ensure he inhaled water, not air, in his next breath. They could use their hands to "dam the runoff" and prevent water from spilling out of a detainee's mouth. They were allowed six separate 40-second "applications" of liquid in each two-hour session and could dump water over a detainee's nose and mouth for a total of 12 minutes a day. Finally, to keep detainees alive even if they inhaled their own vomit during a session a not-uncommon side effect of waterboarding the prisoners were kept on a liquid diet. The agency recommended Ensure Plus.

Fuck Dick Cheney.

Fuck that sick bastard with a sharpened stick till he bleeds out.

/Yes, just an expression.

Be Well.

Plowing through hundreds of pages of these documents is an unsettling experience. On one level, the detailed instructions can be seen as helping to carry out kinder, gentler waterboarding, with so much care and attention given to making sure detainees didn't stop breathing, get pneumonia, breathe in their own vomit or die. But of course dead detainees tell no tales, so the CIA needed to keep many of its prisoners alive. It should be noted, though, that six human rights groups in 2007 released a report showing that 39 people who appeared to have gone into the CIA's secret prison network haven't shown up since. The careful attention to detail in the documents was also used to provide legal cover for the harsh and probably illegal interrogation tactics.

As brutal as the waterboarding process was, the memos also reveal that the Bush-era Justice Department authorized the CIA to use it in combination with other forms of torture. Specifically, a detainee could be kept awake for more than seven days straight by shackling his hands in a standing position to a bolt in the ceiling so he could never sit down. The agency diapered and hand-fed its detainees during this period before putting them on the waterboard. Another memo from Bradbury, also from 2005, says that in between waterboarding sessions, a detainee could be physically slammed into a wall, crammed into a small box, placed in "stress positions" to increase discomfort and doused with cold water, among other things.

The CIA's waterboarding regimen was so excruciating, the memos show, that agency officials found themselves grappling with an unexpected development: detainees simply gave up and tried to let themselves drown.


Anyone from the "panties on the head" or "hazing" crowd wanna take a crack at this thread?

Yeah, Spud didn't think so.

Torture is never justifiable.

Be Well.

Waterboarding isn't torture in my estimation, but forcing prisoners to drink Ensure... Even Mengele didn't do that.
God, but that shit's nasty.

Chairpoodles will be along shortly to tell Torture Werks! (tm)

Waterboarding IS torture which is exactly why the SEALS are trained to deal with it.

And if you know anything about the US government you should already know that this is and always has been just the tip of the iceberg.

Which is why most intelligent folks bristled when they heard it was being allowed AT ALL...we knew we weren't being told the worst of it.

That rabbit hole runs deep.

War is hell. McCain had it worse. Leave it to a Canadian to be indignant. We keep you safe, you ungrateful vag.

Darth Cheney, an evil greedfucker and brilliant manipulator of DC. If only he had to report to Osama bin Laden in Hell someday.

By God I hope so. I hope they put the bastards in oil and boiled them.

If they have any left over it would be good to use on people like Nutcase who will vote in idiots like Obama that will end up getting us all killed.

Then he will turn around and say "why didn't someone do something about this?"

"Which is why most intelligent folks bristled when they heard it was being allowed AT ALL...we knew we weren't being told the worst of it."

Just curious how low standard must be if you are inlcuded in the so called intelligent crowd.lol

We keep you safe, you ungrateful vag.

#5 | POSTED BY RON_KARATE

You keep us SAFE? From the enemies you CREATE?

Just curious how low standard must be if you are inlcuded in the so called intelligent crowd.lol

Donnerboy keeps their water glasses full and gets them butter when they run out.

close enough?

all the rush to be so outraged at this. I am against torture because it is morally wrong.

not because a republican authorized it. Obviously there isn't agreement(in the CIA and military) that it isn't effective.

I'm glad I don't have to make those decisions.

it's easy to sit on a fucking computer judging those who do though.

"Anyone wanna take a crack at this thread?"

Sorry to disect the original question... But you are aware both parties signed on to the use of enhanced interrogation, right? I agree torture should never have been used, they should have been granted their wish to meet allah.

Just curious how low standard must be if you are inlcuded in the so called intelligent crowd.lol

#8 | Posted by crispee_oc

not low enough for YOU to be a member...LOL back at ya.

The truth always comes out...

eventually.

not low enough for YOU to be a member...LOL back at ya.
#12 | Posted by donnerboy at 2010-03-09 05:36 PM

Ah that hurts donner... But it does remind me of a comedian who once said "I would never join a club that would have me as a member."

"I would never join a club that would have me as a member."

ahhh touche! true dat.

#14: Groucho Marx, I think, but Woody Allen later used it in one of his movies

Sean Hannity, gutless pussy.

Nancy Pelosi was briefed on the CIA waterboarding at the time.

She was fully briefed and fully informed.

Cheney is old news...meanwhile, Obama is torturing millions of Americans that are out of work!

Waterboarding IS torture which is exactly why the SEALS are trained to deal with it.

The USA is torturing SEALS?? Where is the outrage? Why don't the SEALs sue?

The USA is torturing SEALS??

#20 | Posted by homerj

technically yes!

Why don't the SEALs sue?

cause they signed a waiver ya big dummy

Cheney is old news...meanwhile, Obama is torturing millions of Americans that are out of work!

#19 | Posted by Beachbuzz

yes for a two year old a year is a long long time and yet you keep torturing US with your idiotic deflections!

Focus Buttfuzz you can do it!

The topic is:

Dick Cheney's proscribed techniques for waterboarding prisoners was even crueller than previously thought and much more brutal than he described.

carry on!

Serious question: Do SEALs really go through waterboarding?

While in the Marines, we received training on how to handle and resist torture (Marines were tortured in Korea). The purpose of the torture in Korea was not to get info but to get confessions to broadcast (Propaganda). One on the guys mentioned how he would like to torture the gooks, the Gunny said "we are US Marines, we do not torture, ever!".

The Chinese, experts in torture, never tortured to get info, only to get propaganda confessions. Reliable info never results from torture.

"Dick Cheney's proscribed techniques for waterboarding prisoners was even crueller than previously thought and much more brutal than he described."

Cheney was simply listening to the Congressional reps, who asked if the enhanced techniques went far enough. Right?

Serious question: Do SEALs really go through waterboarding?

#23 | Posted by homerj

ok seriously I not sure if they do anymore it is a really controversial procedure. You'd have to get a SEAL to tell you...if they can.

In the post-Vietnam period, the Navy SEALs and some Army Special Forces used a form of waterboarding with trainees to prepare them to resist interrogation if captured. The waterboarding proved so successful in breaking their will, says one former Navy captain familiar with the practice, "they stopped using it because it hurt morale."

Cheney was simply listening to the Congressional reps,

Congressional reps were simply listening to Cheney...

There FTFY!

Its the "REAL" AMERICA!

HEY AMERICA this is the REAL YOU! YES THESE COWARDLY,SADISTIC,TORTURING,LO W
LIFE C.I.A. "COCK_SUCKERS"! YES...THIS is Y-O-U AMERICA - SO SWALLOW IT DOWN WHOLE and CHOKE ON IT - YOU FLAG WAVING,SLIME BAG,GOD DAMNED,FUCKING WHORES!

#28 | Posted by AntiCadillac at 2010-03-09 07:20 PM | Reply | Flag: 22 Exclamation Points short LOL

I guess we can givre Cheney a pass on this little mis-statement. He was, after all, dead-on about the WMD in Iraq and the Osama/Saddam buddy-buddy thing..

#28. I have the luxury of blaming the war-mongering, torturing lying scum that made up the Bush Administration.

The rest of the world doesn't bother with that distinction.

I just got out of the shower. Got some water in my nose.

Godam Cheney!

Why would SEALS receive training in resisting waterboarding...

...if waterboarding is not effective way for inquisitors to gain information?

...if waterboarding is not effective way for inquisitors to gain information?

Ask any intelligence organization or John McCain. They all say torture doesn't work.

I just got out of the shower. Got some water in my nose.

Godam Cheney!

#32 | Posted by vernon at 2010-03-09 07:35 PM | Reply | Flag:Meant golden shower

...if waterboarding is not effective way for inquisitors to gain information?

Ask any intelligence organization or John McCain. They all say torture doesn't work.

#34 | Posted by northguy3

Exactly. So I wonder why they wasted the time training SEALS.

...if waterboarding is not effective way for inquisitors to gain information?

Ask any intelligence organization or John McCain. They all say torture doesn't work.

#34 | Posted by northguy3

Exactly. So I wonder why they wasted the time training SEALS.

Sorry for the double post. System is acting strangely.

Why would SEALS receive training in resisting waterboarding...

...if waterboarding is not effective way for inquisitors to gain information?

Come on fool their 30 second initiation was nothing. They knew it too.

Why would SEALS receive training in resisting waterboarding...

...if waterboarding is not effective way for inquisitors to gain information?

Come on fool their 30 second initiation was nothing. They knew it too.

BENDOR

I just had the same problem. After hitting 'Publish' I got a message that said "You did not post a comment. Please hit Back Button ...."

Why would SEALS receive training in resisting waterboarding...

...if waterboarding is not effective way for inquisitors to gain information?

Come on fool their 30 second initiation was nothing. They knew it too.

Exactly. So I wonder why they wasted the time training SEALS.

as a Marine we underwent torture training so we could handle it(or resist it), that's because torture was used against us, especially in Korea. A good idea to know what to expect (although we didn't undergo waterboarding)

Ask any intelligence organization or John McCain. They all say torture doesn't work.

they why did the CIA do it then?

"War is hell. McCain had it worse...."

#5 | Posted by Ron_Karate at 2010-03-09 05:14 PM | Reply | Flag:

In what way, specifically.

they why did the CIA do it then?

#44 | Posted by eberly at 2010-03-09 09:13 PM | Reply | Flag:

Because the civilians you voted for directed them to.

no, boyd. I was referring to the 2 million times they did it BEFORE George Bush was elected POTUS.

Just curious how low standard must be if you are inlcuded in the so called intelligent crowd.lol

Donnerboy keeps their water glasses full and gets them butter when they run out.

You mean their lung full. Can't you read? They intended on them aspirating water and forced that to happen 6 times a fucking day. TORTURE.

close enough?
all the rush to be so outraged at this. I am against torture because it is morally wrong.
not because a republican authorized it. Obviously there isn't agreement(in the CIA and military) that it isn't effective.
I'm glad I don't have to make those decisions.
it's easy to sit on a fucking computer judging those who do though.
#10 | Posted by eberly at 2010-03-09 05:33 PM

The neo-cons were accepted with open arms by many if not all Republican officials, yes. BushCo immediately changed the rules of warfare to include these interrogation "techniques" which have been deemed ineffective for intelligence gathering as well as considered in violation of rules conducting imprisonment. This was not advised, it was mandated.

"Legalizing" torture is not like voting for "American Idol" - we already knew the outcome to this unquestionably immoral nonsense.

Nancy Pelosi was briefed on the CIA waterboarding at the time.
She was fully briefed and fully informed.
#18 | Posted by BENDOR at 2010-03-09 06:28 PM

I have a distinct feeling that you are right - in fact many of those "briefed" already knew or suspected torture was being used.

Exactly. So I wonder why they wasted the time training SEALS.

#37 | Posted by BENDOR at 2010-03-09 09:00 PM | Reply | Flag:

Because our unscrupulous enemies used such techniques to humiliate our troops and elicit false confessions. The methods you defend were once once what separated the bad guys from us.

Thanks a lot.

48 | Posted by redlightrobot at 2010-03-09 09:33 PM | Reply | Flag: sitting in judgement on a fucking computer.

Eberly-
re: no, boyd. I was referring to the 2 million times they did it BEFORE George Bush was elected POTUS.

#47 | Posted by eberly at 2010-03-09 09:33 PM | Reply | Flag:

You mean before Bush/Cheney dug into the bowels of the DOJ to find some craven motherfuckers to say torture was legal if the President orders it, and after you vocally defend the use of torture?

Eberly-
I was referring to the 2 million times they did it BEFORE George Bush was elected POTUS.

#47 | Posted by eberly at 2010-03-09 09:33 PM | Reply | Flag:

One of "2 million" examples, please.

You mean before Bush/Cheney dug into the bowels of the DOJ to find some craven motherfuckers to say torture was legal if the President orders it, and after you vocally defend the use of torture?

yeah, before that. I mean before GWB was even born......

.....and before I "vocally defended it".

what an asshole........

Interrogators pumped detainees full of so much water that the CIA turned to a special saline solution to minimize the risk of death, the documents show. The agency used a gurney "specially designed" to tilt backwards at a perfect angle to maximize the water entering the prisoner's nose and mouth, intensifying the sense of choking and to be lifted upright quickly in the event that a prisoner stopped breathing.

The documents also lay out, in chilling detail, exactly what should occur in each two-hour waterboarding "session." Interrogators were instructed to start pouring water right after a detainee exhaled, to ensure he inhaled water, not air, in his next breath. They could use their hands to "dam the runoff" and prevent water from spilling out of a detainee's mouth. They were allowed six separate 40-second "applications" of liquid in each two-hour session and could dump water over a detainee's nose and mouth for a total of 12 minutes a day. Finally, to keep detainees alive even if they inhaled their own vomit during a session a not-uncommon side effect of waterboarding the prisoners were kept on a liquid diet. The agency recommended Ensure Plus.

The motherfuckers who defend this make me sick.

Rot in hell, Eberly.

'night blog.

Because our unscrupulous enemies used such techniques to humiliate our troops and elicit false confessions. The methods you defend were once once what separated the bad guys from us.

That needs to be said over and over again.

Andrew Sullivan said the same thing quite well:

"Is it not a rather fantastic historical irony that the torture techniques that the North Vietnamese used against McCain that forced him to offer a videotaped false confession ... are now the techniques the Bush administration is using to gain "intelligence" about terror networks.

How is it possible to know that everything John McCain once said on videotape for the enemy was false, because it was coerced, and yet assert that everything we torture out of terror suspects using exactly the same techniques, is true?"

One of "2 million" examples, please.

www.alternet.org's_torture_techniques/

Rot in hell, Eberly.

'night blog.

Every night. Just like a cornered animal. You think the boy would eventually learn . . .

"War is hell. McCain had it worse...."

#5 | Posted by Ron_Karate at 2010-03-09 05:14 PM | Reply | Flag:

In what way, specifically.

#45 | Posted by BetelG at 2010-03-09 09:30 PM

In what way? Don't tell me you think the POW camp dubbed Hanoi Hilton was actually a real hotel do you? Sorry, bad joke...

Let's start with the treatment they receive in GITMO compared to what the American prisoners faced. The special diets, soccer, Korans... How could one even compare?

Rot in hell, Eberly.

go fuck your mother.

I have never supported torture. I dare you or any other poster to show otherwise. I am against torture. period. but not because it was authorized by a republican.

like you.

All I have said is that torture has been around for a long time and I am glad those are decisions I don't have to make.

Let me get this straight, Eberly. You defend the legalization of torture and its sanctioned use because you found an "alternet" post that claims that it was secretly done before?

Rot in hell twice.

And fuck off.

Eberly-
All I have said is that torture has been around for a long time and I am glad those are decisions I don't have to make.

#60 | Posted by eberly at 2010-03-09 09:47 PM | Reply | Flag:

It's a close call, isn't it Eberly? After all, you perhaps have seen what McCain confessed to, but most importantly, you've watched "24".

Rot in hell thrice.

(Oh, and fuck off)

Later.

How is it possible to know that everything John McCain once said on videotape for the enemy was false, because it was coerced, and yet assert that everything we torture out of terror suspects using exactly the same techniques, is true?"
#56 | Posted by YAV at 2010-03-09 09:43 PM |

I believe the paragraph by Sullivan above your retort pretty much explained it. Propoganda versus intel which could eventually save lives? We did it out of necessity, they did out of hate and relished it.

You defend the legalization of torture and its sanctioned use because you found an "alternet" post that claims that it was secretly done before?

Rot in hell twice.

And fuck off.

poor boyd. just has to assign a position to argue with. You might as well put a pitcher of water in my hand as I must have done the torturing myself.

I'm considering changing my position and actually suppport torture just to make boyd piss his pants even more.

somebody needs a timeout and go to bed without supper.

poor boyd. just has to assign a position to argue with.

He does it because he feels if he assigns a false position and you naturally deny it, he has won. It's a sick mentality, but it's all the poor boy has sadly. We all see him pull that stunt nightly. And I honestly believe he thinks no one notices. Really.

I believe the paragraph by Sullivan above your retort pretty much explained it. Propoganda versus intel which could eventually save lives? We did it out of necessity, they did out of hate and relished it.

Perhaps the quotes around "intelligence" threw you.

Wow.

Actually Eberly's link was interesting and supports this article. The only references to torture besides a) the world history and b) the States that violated Civil Rights was the linkage to the Bush Admin.

What a bunch of sniveling little bitches.

Take this thread on? This from the long-boned tater?

War sucks. Doesn't matter if it's a good war (ya know, congressionally approved and all) or a bad war (ummm, like your Bush got us into). There are people in this world that would just as soon slit your throat as say hello. If in war, and those people are found - torturing them with methods like waterboarding is a utilitarian approach.

Perhaps the quotes around "intelligence" threw you.

Wow.

#68 | Posted by YAV at 2010-03-09 09:59 P

Aside from the fact the "intelligence" can be verified and determined good or bad?

b) the States that violated Civil Rights was the linkage to the Bush Admin.

So how does Franklin D Roosevelt fit into the picture when it comes to violating civil rights?

Thanks Yav.

There is no point in ignoring either the history of torture by the CIA or the Bush Administrations's authorization of it.

Discussing it's history and use isn't the same thing as defending it.

unless you are stupid motherfucker like boyd.

as a Marine we underwent torture training so we could handle it

Yes I remember... It was called Recruit training at Paris Island. Miskitos the size of b-29s landing on your face... The DI right up in your face going... "Go Ahead Prive.... I dare you to scratch it.... "

Heaven help you if you did....

PT in the Sand Pit for three hours...

Rolling you in wet sand at 6AM before breakfest so you were good and covered with sand fleas all day...

A drill Instructor stands on your knees while you're sitting in the Indian position at the rifle range. In fact I think that was the most pain I have ever had. My right knee was never the same. Ever...

Forced to drink Canteen after canteen of water until you puked and then forced to drink more water...

Forced to retrieve a drill instructors glasses out at ICT after he dropped them in the woods at the air strip while being attacked by bees. I was stung 8 times. Got the glasses though.

Three drill instructors stomping on top of your tent and you at 2AM while you're sleeping in your shelter half out at ITC.

Forced to go into the Tear Gas shack filled with tear gas (CS Gas) without a mask on for five minutes with the door blocked by DI's wearing gas masks so you couldn't get out....

Forced to sit on a Fire ANT NEST and not move for what seemed like a thousand years. Till your legs and ass looked like one solid welt.

Yes then the torture classes out in the FMF Combat infantry school. That was easy as pie.

Water boarding is for Pussies!


Who gives a shit. These bastards want to kill us ALL, liberals, conservatives, Christians, Jews,
Hindus, Atheists, Agnostics and other Muslims. They will not accommodate any other religion, culture or people other than their own without wreaking terror, mayhem and suffering on those other than their own.

They are bent on our destruction. Why the hell should we care if they have to snort a little water.

And NO, it doesn't make us the same as them if we take them out in whatever way we can and however we must. Case in Point: We bombed the hell out of Europe and killed and killed to get rid of Hitler and put an end to militant Japan. As a result, we saw freedom survive, civilization thrive and the Jews freed from their hell, thanks to our wonderful fighting men and women in WW II..

So was another generation of Americans wrong to eradicate such evil, and how can we be wrong to eradicate such evil that wants us all dead and our civilization eradicated? Have we become a suicidal culture with our so-called tolerance of all things destructive and our political correctness, our desire to be loved to the point of our demise and destruction as a nation, a fall into poverty, famine, disease, the full 7 Horseman from Hell?

www.counterpunch.org

www.mindhacks.com

Goatman-
re: He does it because he feels if he assigns a false position and you naturally deny it, he has won. It's a sick mentality, but it's all the poor boy has sadly. We all see him pull that stunt nightly. And I honestly believe he thinks no one notices. Really.

#67 | Posted by goatman at 2010-03-09 09:53 PM | Reply | Flag:

You, also, have defended torture, and continue to do so. That's as clear as it can be. Perhaps you and Crispee, Eberly, and Mao et. al. can confuse yourselves into a partisan argument and a personal blog hatred, but everyone else can see more clearly.

re: And NO, it doesn't make us the same as them if we take them out in whatever way we can and however we must. Case in Point: We bombed the hell out of Europe and killed and killed to get rid of Hitler and put an end to militant Japan.

Torturing prisoners is different from war. Are you too stupid to understand that? If so, you are not alone.

You, also, have defended torture, and continue to do so.

Link?

Right, there's not one.

Continue your childish games of assigning false positions, boy(d). As I said, it's the only thing you know and the only way you can convince yourself that you've "won" something. How sad for you, little man

#77 | Posted by BetelG at 2010-03-09 10:14 PM

Coming from someone who asked how McCain had it worse, I am not to offended by your calling me a hater. BTW... Not sure all those you named have defended torture.

confuse yourselves into a partisan argument and a personal blog hatred, but everyone else can see more clearly.

boyd accusing others of "partisan argument".

he illustrates his stupidity every day.

Because our unscrupulous enemies used such techniques to humiliate our troops and elicit false confessions. The methods you defend were once once what separated the bad guys from us.

Thanks a lot.

#49 | Posted by BetelG

Well, that is the consensus opinion on this.

However I find it difficult to believe we haven't always used torture.

It just wasn't an issue before. WWI, WWII, Vietnam, Korea - a lot of things were done that never made the news.

I'm not sure we are as innocent as decided opinion portrays.

Goatman-
How about you settle this one once and for all time:

Link us to the post where you vehemently denounce the techniques used on prisoners in our war on terror over the last nine years.

Just one would be cool; one before yesterday.

"Torturing prisoners is different from war. Are you too stupid to understand that? If so, you are not alone."

Then you agree with me they should have been given their wish to meet allah instead of captured?

Bendor-
re: However I find it difficult to believe we haven't always used torture.

It just wasn't an issue before. WWI, WWII, Vietnam, Korea - a lot of things were done that never made the news.

We prosecuted them when they were found out;
the Bush administration made torture legal.

Get it?

Link us to the post where you vehemently denounce the techniques used on prisoners in our war on terror over the last nine years.

You made the claim, boy(d). You bear the burden of proof. It is not up to me to disprove you.

Nice try, loser, liar, and all around idiot.

No, we prosecuted them for many things including waterboarding.

Link us to the post where you vehemently denounce the techniques used on prisoners in our war on terror over the last nine years.

another attempt at a "boobism"

Link us to the post where you vehemently denounce the techniques used on prisoners in our war on terror over the last nine years.

I've never once denied that the moon is made of blue cheese on this blog, either. So using our logic, this proves that I believe the moon is made of blue cheese.

Let me guess: Cumma Sum Laude from the Buffalo Bob school of logic?

Seems like a simple question, Goatman. You could just answer it now and end the speculation. Should the United States engage in torture?

Yes or no?

Then you agree with me they should have been given their wish to meet allah instead of captured?

#84 | Posted by crispee_oc at 2010-03-09 10:21 PM | Reply | Flag:

You mean like the guys rounded up because a rival tribe got a bounty just be taken out and summarily shot?

Is that what you want to ask our honorable military to do?

You think that every prisoner, or even a plurality, were captured in battle? And if we were to shoot those who surrender in battle, or torture them to death, how many would surrender ever again? And if we are waging a war for the "hearts and minds" for a greater cause of freedom and the rule of law, how does behaving as sadistic barbarians help us? And how much does it help the recruitment of Al Qaeda?

And what are the depths of your depravity and stupidity? Do they meet at a certain point below the muck and below the graves of everyone who has given his life for the shining city on a hill?

Burden of proof" in philosophic or scientific contexts means that someone suggesting a new theory or stating a claim must provide evidence to support it: it is not sufficient to say "you can't disprove this." Specifically, when anyone is making a bold claim, and especially a positive claim, it is not someone else's responsibility to disprove the claim, but is rather the responsibility of the person who is making the bold claim to provide warrant for the claim. In short, X is not proven simply because "not X" cannot be proven (see argument from ignorance).
en.wikipedia.org

Should the United States engage in torture?

I've answered this many times before (for boy(d) mostly) and the answer is still "no". I've never answered that question to the affirmative.

However, I do not think waterboarding is torture.

Let me guess: Cumma Sum Laude from the Buffalo Bob school of logic?

#89 | Posted by goatman at 2010-03-09 10:26 PM | Reply | Flag:

No, let me guess. A moral coward, who by his silence and moral deficiency tacitly supported every brutality until he was embarrassed by the obvious. A person who saw no problem with "enhanced interrogation" until he was forced to look at what that meant. And even then, his response is to behave as a partisan hack, afraid of how it might play in the next election.

A pissant excuse for a moral being, in other words.

And even then, his response is to behave as a partisan hack,

Posted by One of The biggest partisan hacks here.

However, I do not think waterboarding is torture.

Posted by goatman at 2010-03-09 10:30 PM

Of course not. Neither did Pol Pot or Torquemada.

How could they and remain good people dedicated to a greater cause, as you are?

My time is up.

who by his silence and moral deficiency tacitly supported every brutality until he was embarrassed by the obvious

Well, I've never once heard you say that forcing black people to eat rotten eggs is a bad thing. Therefore you tacitly approve of it.

What a sorry mother fucker you are. What do you have against black people anyway, asshole? You are really slime.

You are a pissant excuse for a human boyd. I can't stand racists like you have tacitly proven yourself to be.

"Seems like a simple question..."
#90 | Posted by YAV at 2010-03-09 10:27 P

Where does FDR rank when it comes to civil rights violation Yav? I know you pointed out Bush already, how does that compare to FDR?

Of course not. Neither did Pol Pot or Torquemada.

I didn't ask them.

But we did ask folks like Pelosi and other leaders in DC. and we also asked attorneys who graduated from Harvard and Yale as well.

yeah, like you, I disagree with them. I think it is all torture.

But that can't be right? I'm a brother of Pol Pot...according to you.

My time is up.

Good. No one can stand racist attitudes like yours, boyd. You have tacitly proven yourself to be a racist by clearly supporting the notion that black people should be forced to eat rotten eggs. Good fucking riddance you racist scumbag

FDR used water-boarding and other torture techniques?

I didn't find that in any of Eberly's links.

Oh, so you want to move the goal posts.

The United States has a long history of violating Civil Rights. We're supposed to grow as a Country. Learn from our history. Fix our mistakes. You know, like we did with torture until Bush/Cheney re-implemented it (according to Eberly's links)

"You mean like the guys rounded up because a rival tribe got a bounty just be taken out and summarily shot?"

First of all you were talking about war, which means on the battle field, which means an enemy trying to kill you. I am curious Betelg, if an enemy combatant had a bomb strapped to him, would you capture or kill him?

#102 was for Crispee.

Crispee - I have to sign off for the night. Don't take my non-response as blowing you off.

Good night.

I can't stand racists like you

Liberals are the worst of the racists too there goat... They love the black mans vote..... After election day though they continue to call them animal names behind their backs...

I fired an attorney during my divorce because he started making fun of black people.

The guy was a complete A Hole Lib which was bad enough. I was talking about a job I had in the City working at social services years before and the guy went off on welfare recipients.... He started with the Monkey jokes and the like... Total Piece of shit....

Liberals are the worst of the racists too there goat... They love the black mans vote..... After election day though they continue to call them animal names behind their backs...

I have personal experience with that. My sister and her husband lived next door to a Democratic state senator of their state. He was a nice enough guy, but very two faced. (he could throw a hell of a tailgate party, though. Best one I ever went to in my life was one he hosted at a Jimmy Buffett concert. But I'm digressing).

We went to a Christmas party at his house one year. I heard the raunchiest racist jokes from him and fellow legislators who were there. Yet you know they were courting the black vote during their campaign.

His dog did do a cute trick, though. He would ask it, "Would you rather be dead or a Republican?" The dog would roll over and play dead. LOL

boyd is watching again as he doesn't have the balls to post.

so why we wait for him to come back again......I go back to my first question.

why does the CIA still use torture?

the answer can't be as simple as "Bush wanted to do it so he ordered them to...".

If the CIA agreed that torture is useless then perhaps someone could have told that to Bush.....and to point out there was NO political upside to torturing anyway.

what all of this tells me is that the military and the CIA is not in agreement on this issue and that some believe torture can be effective.

I sure as hell don't know so I have no judgement to make. I believe it to be wrong. But I am a blogger who has never served in the military. never been in a warzone (unless you want to consider my wife's PMS a warzone)

I'm not ignoring any reports from experts who claim that waterboarding is torture and that torture is ineffective.

using exactly the same techniques

You can't possibly compare the torture that Viet Nam POWs like John Mc Cain suffered with water boarding...

John Mc Cain was tortured beyond belief... Hung by his arms until both shoulders were dislocated.... Weekly and repeatedly... Tied to a chair and punched and kicked in the face for hours... Head forced into a sink full of water until he passed out.... Hung upside down while a man whipped the bottom of his feet.... This went on for years....

You libs are just freaking over 40 Seconds of water being poured over someones face... They had to water Board KSM over 200 times because he was trained and it had little effect on him at first...

Water Boarding is not torture.... Its not a good way to treat someone But as I posted up top, Marine Corps Drill instructors run rings around water boarding every day.

Like I said before.... Water Boarding is for Pussies!

Most Liberals are Pussies... Cowards... And wouldn't ever fight to defend their country... They just like to run their mouth.... Freak out and Complain about Everything Unless their guy does it.... Then it's Okay.... Obama is the president now... Where are all The CLOSE GITMO Screamers now??????

LOL. Put the bottle down, troll asshole.

LOL. Put the bottle down, troll asshole.

Building a house?

why does the CIA still use torture?

Because it's very, very effective.

Everybody has a breaking point.

History has shown this time and time again.

Now, as for the moral aspect...

Because it's very, very effective.

Uh oh. You've just invited the wrath of DR's man-child, boy(d) to descend upon yourself.

You've just invited the wrath of DR's man-child, boy(d) to descend upon yourself.

Normally, that should instill fear, but I am tough. I can take it.

"Most Liberals are Pussies... Cowards... And wouldn't ever fight to defend their country"

Hey asshole, have you ever been to Punchbowl? My brother is there along with thousands of heroes, half of which were libs.

Here's the Young Republican Convention at the height of the Iraq War. A reporter went in to ask these 'rah rah' war supporters why they aren't in uniform putting their actions where their rhetoric is. Funny how many 'back injuries' there are in one room!!

Generation Chickenhawk - With the Young Republicans

Vietnam was fought by those unlucky enough to not have parents who could pay their tuition so they could stay our of Vietnam.

Dick Cheney had 'other things to do'.

I do not think waterboarding is torture.

#93 | Posted by goatman

You are a fucking idiot.

Did you even read the article?

Waterboarding is torture and always will be.

One of the "problems" that occured after BushCo made waterboarding legal was that people would just give up and try to commit suicide by allowing the water to drown them. They would then be brought back to conciousness and tortured some more.

Well, provided they didn't die, of course.

Are you really that completely retarded or more likely are you just being yer stubborn, obstinate assholish self and trying to piss people off which seems to be yer entire raison d'etre around here most days?

Water Boarding is for Pussies!

~Themoroniscoming

Ya know wot'd make you change your mind about that?

That's right, about 20 seconds of waterboarding.

America has a long and deplorable history of using torture. Traditionally America Intel Services would only train others in torture techniques and provide the questions to be asked but Bush and Cheney changed all that. While some people think that that is a distinction without a difference Spud aint one of them. Something happens when you become a torture state. Something happens to the country and to the individuals who do the actual torture. Something bad.

Anyone who argues that Waterboarding is NOT torture is a fucking retard and not worth talking to.

Anyone who argues that torture was in any way, shape or form "neccessary" is massively uninformed.

Anyone who argues that torture is "effective" doesn't understand the long term ramifications of the down side of torture.

Nice to see the blog-god greenlit this puppy.

Was not expecting that.

Be Well.

/As ya do
stage left.

Cheney approved of torture.

ok, where does TFA say he wrote the instructions for the CIA on how exactly to water-board?

it doesn't, does it?

water-boarding is torture, American law says torture is a war crime. what does this article add? nothing. this is not evidence, nor is it any more damning to Cheney, et al.

I think that Jim Beam and gentle persuasion would have gotten more from the higher profile detainees than waterboarding, at far less political cost.

what does this article add?

It adds details that were previously unknown through the release of internal CIA documents.

this is not evidence, nor is it any more damning to Cheney, et al.

It shows clearly that the gulf between Cheney's public statements on waterboarding and the grim realities of what actually happened is even bigger than many previously imagined, ergo it is more damning.

I think that Jim Beam and gentle persuasion would have gotten more from the higher profile detainees than waterboarding, at far less political cost.

~Town and Country

Hey, T&C, long time no see.

How ya been?

Spud agrees that the use of less morally reprehensible tactics would have been both more effective at producing actionable intel and less likely to produce blowback.

You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

Be Well.

#28 | Posted by AntiCadillac at 2010-03-09 07:20 PM
***"HEY AMERICA this is the REAL YOU! YES THESE COWARDLY,SADISTIC,TORTURING,LO W
LIFE C.I.A. "COCK_SUCKERS"! YES...THIS is Y-O-U AMERICA - SO SWALLOW IT DOWN WHOLE and CHOKE ON IT - YOU FLAG WAVING,SLIME BAG,GOD DAMNED,FUCKING WHORES!"

So tell us, how do you really feel???

If the weak lefties don't have the intestinal fortitude to do what is neccessary, thn they need to stay out of the way. When one of these dirty, backwards thinking, ass-clowm muslim terrorist come to your house, rape your daughter and wife in front of you; then they behead them in front you you, fuck their beheaded bodies in front of you....well don't say we didn't try stopping them. We tried but YOU didn't want them to have a littel water poured down their mouths. All the weak leftist should exile themselves from this country.

When one of these dirty, backwards thinking, ass-clowm muslim terrorist come to your house, rape your daughter and wife in front of you; then they behead them in front you you, fuck their beheaded bodies in front of you.

Here's the thing, asswipe.

America is the one doing the invading, occupying raping, killing and torturing.

Your little rant has absolutely no basis in reality.

You cowardly, little RW fear-monkeys need to STFU and sit back and let the grown-ups take care of things cos you obviously don't have the first clue in the set.

The right wing of American politics is dragging the country's name through the slime while trying to drag the country into becoming a neo-fascist state.

Through ignorance and fear fer the most part.

So fuck you and any other pants-pissing, deluded cowards.

Be Well.

#122 | Posted by wormfood

Get yourself be waterboarded for 45 seconds and report back.

Make sure you're handcuffed, strapped down, and can't get up for the entire 45 seconds too.

BTW, we hung Japanese at the end of WW2 for waterboarding.

America is the one doing the invading, occupying raping, killing and torturing.

In Iraq or Afghanistan? Or both?

VMA224,,, Hey asshole, have you ever been to Punchbowl?

Well there Mr. Fixed Marine Air Wing 224, No I haven't been to the punch bowl... I was in Beirut and then central America as a civilian contractor.... Sorry if I offended you and your brother.... I meant the liberals here on the drudge report.

The FBI itself says you get better intel with proven interrogation techniques that don't involve torture.

The "Christmas Bomber" (airline) has been singing like a bird without being waterboarded. Ah, what's the FBI know anyway? They've only been interrogating suspects since it's inception in 1908 (when it was named the BOI - Bureau Of Investigation).

In Iraq or Afghanistan? Or both?

Mostly in Iraq with the raping and torturing.

And most of that is by the mercenaries that America pays for or the Iraqi militias that America arms and supports.

Be Well.

The FBI itself says you get better intel with proven interrogation techniques that don't involve torture.

On the one hand - they would probably know better than any of us. On the other hand, do you honestly think they are going to say otherwise in this day and age?

The FBI don't torture. They interrogate.

They wrote a memo opposing waterboarding when all the hoopla first came up about it.

Again, we hung Japanese after WW2 for waterboarding.

Go join the Fucking Taliban

The Taliban are fans of theocratic governance and torture and keeping people ignorant and restricting rights to citizens based on how they were born.

That's yer team, Moron.

Be Well.

Goaty gets the Dickless Cheney award for cowardly double speak. They don't think water boarding is torture so the rest of us are full of shit even though the US prosecuted the Japanese for doing it. That's what happens to people who hang out with roughnecks and illiterate cowboys all day.

#129 | Posted by dethspud

Please don't take this the wrong way as I feel ALL attrocities should be loudly condemned; I am just trying to provide some historical perspective.

The invasion of Iraq is arguably one of the most humane and altruistic occupations in the history of mankind.

Setting aside the highly questionable justifications, removing Saddam Hussein was a virtuous act. Iraq is now a fledgling Democracy, that while certainly is fraught with problems has also come a VERY long way in a short period of time. Violence is on the decline and freedom is on the rise. Old bitter factions seem to be hashing their differences in a fashion at least resembling a Democracy. The Kurdish north has been thriving since Hussein's ousting.

This government has facilitated this process and has taken inordinate steps to NOT be an occupier. Hell, one of the biggest criticisms early-on was that 'we went in on the cheap'. Say all the negative shit you want about Rumsfeld, but his defense of that strategy made some sense - an overwhelming force would have signaled a true occupation when their goal was to hone-in on the government itself and then return power to the people.

As lousy as Bush was as a president, if Iraq continues on its current trajectory it will be a tremendous legacy for the Bush administration.

The FBI don't torture. They interrogate.

Exactly.

They are far more tightly-bound by laws and procedures than a CIA operative in the lion's den who needs to obtain information quickly and has much less oversight and constraints.

Again, the FBI is bound by policy; of course they are going to argue that their M.O. is the most effective M.O. possible.

an overwhelming force would have signaled a true occupation when their goal was to hone-in on the government itself and then return power to the people.

Shinseki's point about needing 500,000 had nothing to do with 'occupation'. It had to do with providing security once we invaded to ameliorate the sectarian violence and utter destruction of their industries that happened from going in too light handed.

If we had gone in with 500,000 we might have been out of Iraq years ago instead of having to put out fires right and left, so to speak.

AU,

Oftentimes, non-torurous interrogation techniques generate commendable results. However, when dealing with a hardened terrorist, someone truly tough, fearless (mostly) and ruthless, extreme measures are needed if the end-game is the extraction of meaningful information.

EX-MI5 CHIEF SAYS US "CONCEALED SUSPECT MISTREATMENT"

The former head of MI5 has claimed US intelligence agencies "concealed" their mistreatment of terror suspects.

Baroness Eliza Manningham-Buller said she only discovered alleged 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was waterboarded after retiring in 2007.

In a lecture at the House of Lords, she said the US had been "very keen to conceal from us what was happening."
news.bbc.co.uk

If we had gone in with 500,000 we might have been out of Iraq years ago instead of having to put out fires right and left, so to speak.

That's possible and don't get me wrong, once the die was cast I felt we should have gone in with overwhelming force. I actually disagreed with the level of force applied at the time; I was just pointing out that Rumsfeld made a halfway decent point in his defense of the degree of force that was ultimately chosen.

Most people who've had experience with interrogations involving torture say you get unreliable intel because those tortured will say whatever they think you want to hear rather than the truth.

OK, I guess it's OK for the U.S. to do what we hung Japanese for doing after WW2. What we've called, wherever it happened in the world, 'war crimes' ... until 2002.

Jeff- Frankly, I'm a bit surprised to see you sticking to this Jack Bauer stuff.

Will people confess to something under torture, offer up information? Sure, to make the torture stop. They'll confess to anything from being the mastermind behind 9/11 to kidnapping Peter Rabbit.

One of my problems with this whole torture business is its tendency to tell us a good deal more about the torturers (and those who condone their practices) than is ever revealed by the tortured.

Stick with Jack Bauer and you end up in Cheney's Evil Clown Kar, which flew off cliffside long ago.

Please don't take this the wrong way as I feel ALL attrocities should be loudly condemned;

That's nice.

I am just trying to provide some historical perspective.

So's Spud.

The invasion of Iraq is arguably one of the most humane and altruistic occupations in the history of mankind.

It's certainly one of the most media controlled occupations in the history of mankind.

Compare the coverage of this occupation with Vietnam and it's like night and day. America's mainstream media has proven itself to be a facilitator of government rather than a teller of truths.

Setting aside the highly questionable justifications, removing Saddam Hussein was a virtuous act.

No question Saddam Hussein was a very bad man but he was also America's friend and ally for decades. One who received military aid and political cover.

As lousy as Bush was as a president, if Iraq continues on its current trajectory it will be a tremendous legacy for the Bush administration.

No, BushCo's fuckups in Iraq are such that any credit will be despite Dumbya and not because of Dumbya.

Bush's legacy is now and forever will be one of massive incompetence, corporate corruption and immorality on a gigantic scale.

Be Well.

"OK, I guess it's OK for the U.S. to do what we hung Japanese for doing after WW2."

Moral of the story...Make damn sure you win!

Rumsfeld was dead wrong on every single thing: "6 month war, tops", size of force, post invasion planning. Everything. Yet, he was rewarded with tenure until the Dems took Congress. The very next day Bush asked for his resignation. Sad it took that for Rumsfeld to go after being so wrong for so long.

Again, we hung Japanese after WW2 for waterboarding.

That's complete BS.... The Japanese Military personnel who were trued and executed after WWII were Executed for crimes far worse than water boarding. Water boarding Fucking absurd....

There were two hanged in Manila: Gen. Yamashita, who could count among his achievements as the commander in what was then Malaya when 5,000 Chinese merchants were slaughtered in Singapore, and later in the Philippines when thousands of Batangas villagers were murdered (including women and children). Not to be outdone was Gen. Honma Masaharu who was commander during the Bataan Death March where as many as 3,000 Americans and 8,000 Filipinos died. There were seven who made it to the gallows in Tokyo at the "International Military Tribunal for the Far East": Gen. Matsui Iwane (The Butcher of Nanking), Tojo Hideki (primary architect and advocate of war with the U.S.) Doihara Kenji, Hirota Koki, Itagaki Seishiro, Kimura Heitaro, and Muto Akira. At least two others missed the festivities by poisoning themselves, and a few more died in prison from disease. What is impossible to document are the numerous make-shift trials at the end of the war in The Philippines, China, Southeast Asia and Indonesia where defendants were basically pronounced guilty and summarily executed (especially P.O.W. camp commandants).

The Japanese were notorious for Disemboweling and beheading POWs... Literally Filleting humans while alive, Throwing babies up in the air and impaling them on Bayonets and swords. Many women were executed by Japanese soldiers after enduring days of rape and torture by having a gun barrel inserted into their vagina or rectum and the trigger pulled.

You can't possibly compare that to water boarding a terrorist.

Most people who've had experience with interrogations involving torture say you get unreliable intel because those tortured will say whatever they think you want to hear rather than the truth.

That is true when the interrogators have the wrong person. However, someone who is TRULY trying to keep information hidden can eventually be broken via torture and if they are tough enough will NEVER give up the goods under more sanitized interrogation techniques.

OK, I guess it's OK for the U.S. to do what we hung Japanese for doing after WW2. What we've called, wherever it happened in the world, 'war crimes' ... until 2002.

The moral and criminal issue is important, but is not what I am honed in on right now. I fully respect the argument that even if it's effective (it is), it shouldn't be employed regardless. I am simply challenging those who feel the need to delude themselves that this shit doesn't work. It does.

TIMBCI

You don't know squat.

History supports McCain's stance on waterboarding

" McCain is referencing the Tokyo Trials, officially known as the International Military Tribunal for the Far East. After World War II, an international coalition convened to prosecute Japanese soldiers charged with torture. At the top of the list of techniques was water-based interrogation, known variously then as "water cure," "water torture" and "waterboarding," according to the charging documents. It simulates drowning.

R. John Pritchard, a historian and lawyer who is a top scholar on the trials, said the Japanese felt the ends justified the means. "The rapid and effective collection of intelligence then, as now, was seen as vital to a successful struggle, and in addition, those who were engaged in torture often felt that whatever pain and anguish was suffered by the victims of torture was nothing less than the just deserts of the victims or people close to them," he said.

In a recent journal essay, Judge Evan Wallach, a member of the U.S. Court of International Trade and an adjunct professor in the law of war, writes that the testimony from American soldiers about this form of torture was gruesome and convincing. A number of the Japanese soldiers convicted by American judges were hanged, while others received lengthy prison sentences or time in labor camps. "

I am simply challenging those who feel the need to delude themselves that this shit doesn't work. It does.

Nobody's saying that torture doesn't produce information.

Just that A) Techniques that don't use torture are more effective, B) Torture produces not just good intel but whaargarbl as well and C) Torture causes blowback that less morally reprehensible interrogation techniques do not.

Also from a historical perspective the mass use of torture is used far more opften to inspire fear in a nation's citizenry in order to let a corrupt government do wotever th efuck they want to than for any other single reason.

A government that allows torture on foreigners will in time use torture on it's own citizens.

Be Well.

No, BushCo's fuckups in Iraq are such that any credit will be despite Dumbya and not because of Dumbya.

Like the troop surge? Or the overall philosophy that when given the chance the Iraqis will embrace freedom and democracy?

Tokyo Trials testimony:

Here's the testimony of two Americans imprisoned by the Japanese:

They would lash me to a stretcher then prop me up against a table with my head down. They would then pour about two gallons of water from a pitcher into my nose and mouth until I lost consciousness.

And from the second prisoner: They laid me out on a stretcher and strapped me on. The stretcher was then stood on end with my head almost touching the floor and my feet in the air. . . . They then began pouring water over my face and at times it was almost impossible for me to breathe without sucking in water.


As a result of such accounts, a number of Japanese prison-camp officers and guards were convicted of torture that clearly violated the laws of war. They were not the only defendants convicted in such cases. As far back as the U.S. occupation of the Philippines after the 1898 Spanish-American War, U.S. soldiers were court-martialed for using the "water cure" to question Filipino guerrillas.

www.washingtonpost.com

More recently, waterboarding cases have appeared in U.S. district courts. One was a civil action brought by several Filipinos seeking damages against the estate of former Philippine president Ferdinand Marcos. The plaintiffs claimed they had been subjected to torture, including water torture. The court awarded $766 million in damages, noting in its findings that "the plaintiffs experienced human rights violations including, but not limited to . . . the water cure, where a cloth was placed over the detainee's mouth and nose, and water producing a drowning sensation."
ad_icon

In 1983, federal prosecutors charged a Texas sheriff and three of his deputies with violating prisoners' civil rights by forcing confessions. The complaint alleged that the officers conspired to "subject prisoners to a suffocating water torture ordeal in order to coerce confessions. This generally included the placement of a towel over the nose and mouth of the prisoner and the pouring of water in the towel until the prisoner began to move, jerk, or otherwise indicate that he was suffocating and/or drowning."

The four defendants were convicted, and the sheriff was sentenced to 10 years in prison.

We know that U.S. military tribunals and U.S. judges have examined certain types of water-based interrogation and found that they constituted torture.

Waterboarding Used To Be a Crime

A) Techniques that don't use torture are more effective

Sometimes a resounding no.

Also from a historical perspective the mass use of torture

We are not talking about the mass use of torture.

Waterboarding Used To Be a Crime .. which we've hung people for doing.

You can't possibly compare that to water boarding a terrorist.

Sure you can. Both are monstrous unjustifiable, immoral acts.

Like the troop surge? Or the overall philosophy that when given the chance the Iraqis will embrace freedom and democracy?

Like going in in the first place.

Like doing so without enough troops.

/Going with the Rumsfeldian "less is more" philosophy rather than the Generals "overwhelming force" doctrine.

Like allowing merciless mercenaries to operate outside the law.

Like not doing the necessary "nation building" via infrastructure development that everyone said was the key to success.

Like supporting various murderous militias despite knowing that they were kidnapping and torturing their political enemies.

Those are the primary reasons Bush deserves little to no credit for any future success in Iraq.

Be Well.

If you want to find out what REALLY constitutes torture, read James Bradley's book, "Flyboys." It goes into detail describing the fates of eight aviator POW's on Chichi Jima by Japanese participants as well as the fire bombing of Tokyo with actual accounts by survivors. As many times as I overflew Chichi Jima I never knew any of that took place until his book. The fire bombing of Tokyo makes Hiroshima and Nagasaki seem almost kind.

Sometimes a resounding no.

In the case of KSM all the actionable intelligence was garnered using torture-free techniques.

After the waterboarding came only whargaarbl which only served to confuse rather than clarify the intel.

Be Well.

The fire bombing of Tokyo makes Hiroshima and Nagasaki seem almost kind.

No shit.

Nagasaki occurred only because Japan refused to believe that Hiroshima wasn't devastated by one bomb. The bombings of Tokyo and most certainly Dresden justified their thinking at the time.

That's what happens to people who hang out with roughnecks and illiterate cowboys all day.

And your excuse for being such a dumb shit is . . .?

BTW, I read your retort where you said all the fat people in Hawaii were tourists.

Good one, ringo! No one here has EVER seen a Polynesian. LOL Where do you come up with this stuff?

You are a fucking idiot.

Well, I'm rubber and you're glue. Neener neener neener.

Spuds underwear went from boxer briefs to butt floss after reading the story.

I agree though, this level of interrogation is something the Nazi's would've done.

Love the faux outrage over this - most of those on the "outraged" side probably think partial birth abortion is just "reproductive rights" of the mother. Typical libtards.

"No question Saddam Hussein was a very bad man but he was also America's friend and ally for decades. One who received military aid and political cover."

Decades? From 1980 to 1990 is decades? The only reason he was considered an ally then was because of Iran. Did you really forget he invaded Kuwait in 1991? Fucking laughable.

It blows me away all the comparisons and equal scorn to the techniques and reasons for the use of torture to Japan, Vietnam, or even in some cases countries in the ME. They were brutal, sadistic muderous acts against innocent civilians and soldiers alike. The reasons for them doing it, the treatment and environment were night and day. We did it under the threat of more impending attacks and to save lives. They did it for the pure pleasure and dominance.

The Pilgrims used to tie people to a teeter totter and dunk them in the river until they stopped breathing if they didn't go to church on Sunday.

I don't think these Arabs go to church on Sunday so torture is an option, cause the crazies who try and taake over the country and force everyone to go to church will torture them until they do.

Trust me, the crazies who go to church on sunday will soon KILL you if you dont go to church on Sunday

Thats how you know they are insane. Killing for God, they will kill you thinking they are doing Gods work when it isnt.

Neocons are like that. Insane, I mean.

Torture for GOD AND COUNTRY IS OK they say,

Insanity at its finest. It will be better for them had they never been born.

Hey hows that grown up shit workin out for you libs? Couldn't even pass healthcare with a super majority. How can we trust you bleeding heart lefties to run anything....glad the midterms are soon...run you nasties right out of office. But, you will probablly scream and cry foul as usual. I wouldn't be suprised if after loosing some seats in the House and Senate many of you far left, racist hatemongers defect to al-queda...just means more terrorist to torture and kill...

If you want to find out what REALLY constitutes torture...

Torture is reading this thread and seeing some actual Americans (i assume) sliding backward down the slippery slope and supporting the inhumane treatment of other humans and somehow rationalize it and justify it for "God and Country".

And then along comes Elcid who tries to equate abortion with torture...yup..."madness takes it's toll".

Torture for GOD AND COUNTRY IS OK they say,

Insanity at its finest.

Hey hows that grown up shit workin out for you libs?

Hey wormshit...hows them two wars and failed economy working out? Oh yeah, we still trying to clean up that mess Bushco created.

just means more terrorist to torture and kill...

Wot a dickhead...

Maybe instead of smoking dope and hugging trees you could learn to spell...If I'm not mistaken, Obama is running a continued war in Afghanistan...oh and didn't he spend us into oblivion with his wonderful stimulus plan, recovery act...yeah because they are doing great at putting people to work and growing the economy. Typical leftist rant, no substance, and full of anger and hate; hate for yourself and your country. Sorry if your parents didn't hug you enough or wipe your ass enough for you when you were younger.

#165 | Posted by donnerboy at 2010-03-10 12:55 PM | Reply | Flag:

You saying partial birth abortion is not equivalent to torture Donner? Are you sure you were not one of the guards at Dachau?

re: AU,

Oftentimes, non-torurous interrogation techniques generate commendable results. However, when dealing with a hardened terrorist, someone truly tough, fearless (mostly) and ruthless, extreme measures are needed if the end-game is the extraction of meaningful information.

#138 | Posted by JeffJ at 2010-03-10 07:26 AM | Reply | Flag:

Which Jeff J. knows thanks to his collection of the complete series of the TV show "24".

I have never seen 24 as a pro-torture show personally. With the exception of who Jack tortures, 100% of the time it is an innocent person they are doing it to.

This has been a very interesting thread. It was edifying to see the people who justify torture.

"I have never seen 24 as a pro-torture show personally. With the exception of who Jack tortures..."

thanks for you input

Torture is sadly a neccessary evil, but, if you are too stupid to keep it hidden, you are probably too stupid to know who and how to to torture.

This was my input: 100% of the time it is an innocent person they are doing it to.

People like to call 24 pro-torture, but it actually shows it only works when the person you torture knows something to begin with and most of the people they torture don't know...pardon the pun, Jack.

Torture is sadly a neccessary evil, but, if you are too stupid to keep it hidden, you are probably too stupid to know who and how to to torture.

#173 | Posted by kanrei at 2010-03-10 01:46 PM | Reply | Flag:

Perhaps your moral opinions are an unnecessary evil.

Perhaps you are just being arguemtative unnecessarily.

Kanrei-
re: "...but it actually shows it only works when the person you torture knows something to begin with..."

It's heartening to know that you, et al, get your information on the efficacy of torture from a fictional TV show and the self-justifications of those in peril of war crimes prosecution.

Good afternoon.

It's heartening to know that you, et al, get your information on the efficacy of torture from a fictional TV show and the self-justifications of those in peril of war crimes prosecution.


Strawman, line three. You brought up 24, not me, and I said it is not the pro-torture show you thought it was. The fact that you cannot understand that tells me lots about your ability to think and reason.

Good afternoon

This has been a very interesting thread. It was edifying to see the people who justify torture.

Apparently it wasn't edifying enough since you had to resort to assigning false positions to people to get your jollies.

Why does it make you feel better to think that more people support torture than actually do boy(d)? That's really sicko if you think about it.

Good afternoon

It was until you showed up with your daily lies, boy(d).

Goatman-
re: Should the United States engage in torture?

"I've answered this many times before (for boy(d) mostly) and the answer is still "no". I've never answered that question to the affirmative.

However, I do not think waterboarding is torture.

#93 | Posted by goatman at 2010-03-09 10:30 PM | Reply | Flag:

Have you read the description of waterboarding in the article at the top of this thread?

If not, read it. If so, then you have no moral compass, or it is confused by your partisanship and fear.

If this were done to a US service member would you not think it torture?

Think about that while I contemplate how obtuse and morally bankrupt someone can become when acclimated to the banality of evil.

I really have little interest in this discussion left.

If this were done to a US service member would you not think it torture?

No

Quid pro quo (even though I already asked and you ignored)

Why does it give you pleasure to assume more people support torture than really do?

I really have little interest in this discussion left.

Yoiu always feel that way when the questions of your lies and strawmen impossible to ignore.

bye, loser, liar, and all around child.

Why does it give you pleasure to assume more people support torture than really do?


His ego is damaged and his belief in himself battered, so he needs to assign positions to people that he knows are wrong so that he can then feel above them.

And why are you such a racist, boy(d)? YOu proved you are, (using your own logic you used on me to determine I support torture) So why is that boy(d)? Have you always been a racist or is it a new habit you file next to assigning false positions to further build on your faulty personality?

Kanrei and Goatman-
If this were done to a US service member would you not think it torture?

Interrogators pumped detainees full of so much water that the CIA turned to a special saline solution to minimize the risk of death, the documents show. The agency used a gurney "specially designed" to tilt backwards at a perfect angle to maximize the water entering the prisoner's nose and mouth, intensifying the sense of choking and to be lifted upright quickly in the event that a prisoner stopped breathing.

The documents also lay out, in chilling detail, exactly what should occur in each two-hour waterboarding "session." Interrogators were instructed to start pouring water right after a detainee exhaled, to ensure he inhaled water, not air, in his next breath. They could use their hands to "dam the runoff" and prevent water from spilling out of a detainee's mouth. They were allowed six separate 40-second "applications" of liquid in each two-hour session and could dump water over a detainee's nose and mouth for a total of 12 minutes a day. Finally, to keep detainees alive even if they inhaled their own vomit during a session a not-uncommon side effect of waterboarding the prisoners were kept on a liquid diet. The agency recommended Ensure Plus.

What sick motherfucker would claim this was not torture if it were done to one of our own?

Well, I know exactly what kind of sick motherfucker would claim this. Goatman.

His ego is damaged and his belief in himself battered..

His ego probably wouldn't be so dmaged if he didn't saunter in here daily with a "KICK ME" sign pasted to his forehead.

However, I do not think waterboarding is torture.

#93 | Posted by goatman at 2010-03-09 10:30 PM | Reply | Flag:

One of the more interesting revelations in the documents is the use of a saline solution in waterboarding. Why? Because the CIA forced such massive quantities of water into the mouths and noses of detainees, prisoners inevitably swallowed huge amounts of liquid enough to conceivably kill them from hyponatremia, a rare but deadly condition in which ingesting enormous quantities of water results in a dangerously low concentration of sodium in the blood. Generally a concern only for marathon runners , who on extremely rare occasions drink that much water, hyponatremia could set in during a prolonged waterboarding session. A waterlogged, sodium-deprived prisoner might become confused and lethargic, slip into convulsions, enter a coma and die.

Betel says "Good afternoon," then doesn't leave.

He then says "I really have little interest in this discussion left" and runs away again.

Sory Betel, but you no longer qualify for response since you will just put your fingers in your ears again, scream "LALALALALALALALA I CAN"T HEAR YOU," make a strawman statement again, and the run away.

Good afternoon.

What sick motherfucker would claim this was not torture if it were done to one of our own?

Quid pro quo, and you still owe me. Or are you going to pull the usually "I play by different rules than I expect you to" routine?

Why do you enjoy assuming that more people support torture than really do? Was Kanrei correct? I believe there may be a kernel of truth in what he says. If not, what is the reason, boy(d)?

Well, I know exactly what kind of sick motherfucker would claim this. Goatman.

and I disagree with Goatman. I would define that as torture.

but at least he is upfront and admits it.

that is 100% better than some asshole who assigns positions that don't exist and runs like a bitch afterward.

Nothing at all like torture.Neither is chaining someone to the ceiling for days, or locking them in a coffin, or threatening to crush their child's testicles, or beating them, etc.

Do you know how many detainee deaths have been ruled "homicide" by US Military MEs?

Why don't you look it up, Goatman, and quit with your personal pissant gripe against me?

Neither is chaining someone to the ceiling for days, or locking them in a coffin, or threatening to crush their child's testicles, or beating them, etc

Master of the strawman is at it again.

Eberly-
re: "but at least he is upfront and admits it."

No, Eberly. You do. Goatman denies that the methods described a above are torture, which means that he would not describe it as torture if it were used against on of our own. For whatever your moral depravity, at least you admit the obvious.

Goatman, and quit with your personal pissant gripe against me?

What that I expect you to answer my questions since I respond to yours.

WAAAH! Either play by the same rules, or STFU, loser.

boyd,

I meant his position is clear. I disagree with it as do you.

But at least it is a position that he actually has you are attacking versus claiming I support torture, including waterboarding.

Neither is chaining someone to the ceiling for days, or locking them in a coffin, or threatening to crush their child's testicles, or beating them, etc.

Master of the strawman is at it again.

#196 | Posted by kanrei at 2010-03-10 02:22 PM | Reply | Flag:

So those activities are out of bounds even for the Commander in Chief in a time of (undeclared) war?

Perhaps you should email Bush and Cheney and the low level flacks they got to approve all of that.

Eberly-
re: But at least it is a position that he actually has you are attacking versus claiming I support torture, including waterboarding.

#199 | Posted by eberly at 2010-03-10 02:25 PM | Reply | Flag:

I apologize for saying or implying that you approve of any of this.

I'll go with Kanrei's 186. In fact, boy(d) himself admits it is true. He said here in this very thread yesterday that if I was guilty of something since I didn't deny it.

Boy(d)'s not denying #186, so it must be true. Or is this yet another case where you play the "different rules applies here" card, boy(d)?

Ever since Truman and the US involvement in Asia, the Army, and other services, had been revising lesson plans for those US citizens drafted into service. John F. Kennedy's interest in SE Asia, and specifically South Vietnam; perhaps assisted by his service in the Pacific and demonstrated by his encouragement of Special Forces in Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia and Thailand.

At the time I attended Benning School for Boys, the training included various interrogation techniques used in Asia, and at that time specifically Vietnam, and which was taught during Escape and Evasion training portions of the infantry course. Water boarding was one of the techniques used and it was demonstrated on 10% of the "students", while other techniques were used on the remaining percentage groups: 10 different and painful techniques were used on US soldiers.

Got that? The "government" used waterboarding on US soldiers in training, and to make them "break" and sign "confessions" as part of the training. Since the "torture" was finite and non-damaging, per se, those who "confessed" were considered to be a bit less than the macho they might have thought they were ....

Waterboarding only works on those who need and excuse to "confess" and it is a bit more than just OBVIOUS that the Infantry School did *NOT* teach other interrogation techniques practice in SEA ...

... only you dimbos would consider such painful, but non-damaging techniques to actually be classified as "torture" ...

... know why? ...

Because you are a collective of progressive poltroons and worldclass whiners ....

Goatman-
You stated clearly that you did not think that water boarding is torture? Even after reading the description?

If you wish to carry on with your juvenile bullshit, that's fine, but that doesn't erase your intellectual dishonesty and your near complete moral depravity.

Well, Tadowe compares providing troops with the opportunity to experience the techniques that unscrupulous despots and sociopaths might use against them with the actual use of those methods against prisoners.

There are a few differences:

1. It is voluntary.

2. It is done by comrades.

3. There is a "safe word" to get it to stop.

4. You know they won't intentionally kill you.

Just a few differences between training of cadets and the torture of prisoners.

But Tadowe's remarks need a bit more explanation. Tadowe claims that to take the torture methods of others and use them ourselves on prisoners makes it not torture. What is that odd moral calculus?

What Tadowe also won't tell you is that the US has prosecuted and convicted those who engaged in this practice both domestically and internationally. Also, waterboarding was a favored technique of the Spanish Inquisition and the Khmer Rouge, and the Japaneses in WWII. The German translation of their program of interrogation is "enhanced interrogation", and so on and so on.

How embarrassing should it be for this country that Iran -- Iran, for god's sake -- puts its officials on trial for torture and we don't?
www.huffingtonpost.com

Torture tips from Dick Chaney, a true american hero...

Is he Lon Chaney's dad or uncle?

You stated clearly that you did not think that water boarding is torture? Even after reading the description?

Quid pro quo, loser
'
Don't you get it? Is stupidity another negative personality trait you harbor? Apparently so, since you flaunt it like a whore on a street corner

Or, Goatman, throw your lot in with the Gollum of the blog, Tadowe.

Either way, I don't care about your opinion on anything anymore. You've completely destroyed whatever residual respect I have ever had for you or your opinion on any subject.

VM,
We would put officals on trial for torturing our own citizens (I hope) too.

I don't care about your opinion on anything anymore.

Yet you'll be back asking your stupid baited questions in a day or two. Whatever, boy(d)

I do feel great about being able to ask questions pointed enough that you refuse to answer them for fear of losing your argument. Cheap victory, I know considering the mental condition of the target of the questions, but at least it knocks you down a few notches whether you care to admit it or not.

You've completely destroyed whatever residual respect I have ever had for you or your opinion on any subject.

I'm shattered

Allowing some collective cowardice to actually lower national security is exactly the oxymoronic stupidity demonstrated by those who attempt to do so, and which will be honored by mouth, while waterboarding or whatever else improves national security trumps progressive poltroonery ...

The CIA will just avoid announcing the capture of any terrorist leadership you jerks defend ... and find a nice quiet crypt in the Hindu Kush for them ...

"The CIA will just avoid announcing the capture of any terrorist leadership you jerks defend ... and find a nice quiet crypt in the Hindu Kush for them ...'

Until the NY Times or leading democratic Senators exposes what the CIA does when the next republican President is in office.

Ain't gonna be no next "republican President". herm

You saying partial birth abortion is not equivalent to torture Donner? Are you sure you were not one of the guards at Dachau?

#168 | Posted by ELCIDCE90

Ummm yes I thought it was obvious to any rational human being that a woman who voluntarily utilizes a medically approved procedure due to dangers in her health or because the child might be severely deformed is in no way related to the topic of Torture.

And even if a woman was to use this procedure in a purely "elective" fashion it would still not be classified as "torture".

Again... it is another subject entirely yet somehow the right wing crazies like El Cid like to muddy the waters in an debate to confuse the issues.

Why didn't you just scream out "Where is his Birth Certificate"!!!!?"

Would have made as much sense in this debate.

Maybe instead of smoking dope and hugging trees you could learn to spell...If I'm not mistaken, Obama is running a continued war in Afghanistan...oh and didn't he spend us into oblivion with his wonderful stimulus plan, recovery act...

you are very much mistaken...Obama has done none of these things in a vacuum. These are all efforts to reverse the mistakes of the previous administration.

You can't decide to hit the brakes and just "stop" a war and say, "OOPS, never mind our last President was an idiot...we are all going home now...thanks!"

Well, I guess you could say that part about the last Guy being an idiot but stopping a war is not easy but at least Obama is trying. Unlike the last Guy.

In case you are not aware it is Obama's policy to end the war(s)...not to "continue" or as Bush would say "Stay the Course".

His policy is also to close Gitmo and that is not closed either. Why? Cause it ain't as easy to undo a FUCKUP as it is to do one.

I need to learn to spell?

This from a "worm" who can't format a paragraph?

Wot an WORM-tard!

Wanna make me stop smoking dope? You'll have to do better than talk like someone from GlennBeckistan to get me to put down MY herb.

Maybe you had better stop drinking so much beer and listening to Rush Dimbulb in yer pickemup truck.

Howzat for being stereotyped?

Alcohol and alcoholism kills.

When was the last time someone died from marijuana poisoning?

I_D_1_0_T

Ain't gonna be no next "republican President". herm

Said same thing 32 years ago

"Well, I guess you could say that part about the last Guy being an idiot but stopping a war is not easy but at least Obama is trying."

We know, he ignorantly wrote legislation requiring all american troops be out in 16 months.

If you don't masturbate when you think about torture you are aiding the terrorists.

#2 | Posted by tadowe at

Fixed!

Betel says, "1. It is voluntary."

The Draft was in effect.

"2. It is done by comrades."

These things just fly right past you! These practices were taught by government to US soldiers and used on them as examples they might face if captured. Why can't you seem to grasp that this practice has been in effect for over half a century ... Bush didn't do it?

Now, the administration restricts TRAINING EXAMPLES, and meanwhile the CIA gets back to being clandestine and avoids bragging about its "captures and confessions" to toot their bureaucratic horn, and get their chastised butts back to national defense

"But Tadowe's remarks need a bit more explanation. Tadowe claims that to take the torture methods of others and use them ourselves on prisoners makes it not torture. What is that odd moral calculus?"

See? Anyone who contradicts them is automatically made into the subject to hate and mock. Notice the strawman creation that I support torture and using those techniques used on others in training as examples to follow? US partisans of progressive politics demeaning US soldier citizens as being somehow idiots!?!

These aren't patriotic citizens with political differences, they are attack artists who dehumanize and revile as their "torture" practices. "KILL THAT MESSENGER!" "HE'S EVIL!" Why you "Democrats" sponsor this sort of fascistic devolution of freedom ... I'll never understand ...

"What Tadowe also won't tell you is that the US has prosecuted and convicted those who engaged in this practice both domestically and internationally."

Why don't you show such "proof"? When was Truman, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush convicted of allowing US soldiers to be waterboarded ...???

We know, he ignorantly wrote legislation requiring all american troops be out in 16 months.

#212 | Posted by crispee_oc

Ya wot an ignorant bastard! He gonna get us all killed!

US troops could start withdrawal from Afghanistan before the July 2011 deadline set by Barack Obama, the Defence Secretary, Robert Gates, has hinted.

Mr Gates said, "We will begin that transition no later than July of 2011, but the pace will depend also on conditions on the ground."

US troops could withdraw from Afghanistan ahead of 2011 deadline

Donner, the self-named Boy, says: "These are all efforts to reverse the mistakes of the previous administration."

You partisan progressives are so short sighted! Afghanistan was an effort to reverse the Clinton administration's misfeasance as concerns al Qaeda. Indeed, Clinton had actually supported the hatred that the CIA had towards Bush Sr., and because he was sponsoring massive attacks on the Taliban/al Qaeda heroin and hash trade co-partnered by the CIA's paleo-support of those organizations against the Soviets, by not actually firing any successful cruise missile attacks on al Qaeda ... in all those years ... 8, wasn't it?

Yep, Clinton's chicanery in national defense had enabled a large upsurge of Jihadist idiocy ... and NATO agreed; both in '90 and '02.

Meanwhile, the scurrying progressives run hither and yon, and flee at the first "loud noise" they "hear" ... and demand like lions that everyone run in fear at their notice!

Running rats of leftist politics ... it's all about their "cheese" and how much they can grab off the table ...

#214...

If you are going to defend and joke about the legislation he wrote, at least know what fucking war he was willing to retreat from, it was Iraq Einstein.

Donner brags, "US troops could start withdrawal from Afghanistan before the July 2011 deadline set by Barack Obama, the Defence Secretary, Robert Gates, has hinted."

That's exactly what Democrats claimed about South Vietnam! After all, they were certainly "trained" by now (then) and we, the USA, would support their national defense against the communist aggressor.

That "promise" lasted 2 years, was it? Then, you progressive Democrats withdrew *ALL* funding for the defense of South Vietnam.

If you leftists remain in control of the nation, you'll abandon Afghanistan and Iraq in the exact same way. That's the way socialists are, after all: porcine progressives snorting over the government's slop trough. An actual herd of swinish politicos oinking in your collective unison ...

Jesus, how friggin' brain dead are you when you can't even spell the name of that which makes you tremble in fear? I mean, Corky can spell 'vagina' perfectly.

If you are going to defend and joke about the legislation he wrote, at least know what fucking war he was willing to retreat from, it was Iraq Einstein.

#216 | Posted by crispee_oc

Hey Nimrod... (using proper rethug formalities here)

Obama is not "retreating". He is ending the wars. Both wars.

You see there is a difference. Maybe it is too subtle for you and the Tadpole to grasp.

So let me spell it out.

This administration policy is to end wars...not start them and continue them forever. The trick will be to achieve his stated goal to stabilize Afghanistan and "disrupt, dismantle, and defeat al-Qaida in Pakistan and Afghanistan, and to prevent their return to either country in the future," before he brings the troops home.

Nov. 18, 2009

In a remarkable display of global statesmanship and a victory for whatever preference for peace over war that remains in the collective soul of humanity, President Barack Obama today indicated that he wants to end the war in Afghanistan before he leaves office.

Bush had eight years to do this and failed and Obama has about 16 months.

Afghanistan is known as the ``graveyard of empires'' for a reason invader after invader has failed century after century to achieve their goals there.

The only goal we should really have is Peace.

#7
I made a point of being able to spell your middle name, perfectly, Cockfisher.

#7 | Posted by cookfish at

Yeah, I'm really stupid, I didn't spell something right. Now if my unmarried teenage daughter was knocked up and I had to wirte my "core values" on my hand so I can remember what they are you stupid fuckers would be worshipping me.

Hey Nimrod... (using proper rethug formalities here)

Obama is not "retreating". He is ending the wars. Both wars.

You see there is a difference. Maybe it is too subtle for you and the Tadpole to grasp.

#218 | Posted by donnerboy at 2010-03-10 04:13 PM

Nimrod?? lol Thanks for the compliment donner... For the second time, I am talking about the legislation Obama authored as a US Senator which stated all troops be out of "IRAQ" within 16 months. Maybe you are being willfully ignorant to the fact his legislation was a sign of retreat.

I had to wirte my "core values" on my hand so I can remember what they are you stupid fuckers would be worshipping me.

#9 | Posted by NoGov4Me at 2010-03-10 04:35 PM |

Another jem retort... I mean gem lol

Those are the primary reasons Bush deserves little to no credit for any future success in Iraq.

It just never ends with Spuds... Hey Spuds... What's that dripping out of your mouth now?

Get Bush Get Bush Get Bush... Bush is no longer the President and the Guy in there now is a Money Spender for sure... Spending us right out of existence.

Spud doesn't think we should have gone to Iraq... Too Fing Bad. We went and most of us are happy.

Eat me Spuds.... Na... Don't eat me I like girls to much... i don't want to catch your stupidity.

Crispee says, "Nimrod?? lol Thanks for the compliment donner..."

Yes, the uneducated progressive nitwits even devolve language into what they demand is the "real" meaning; as they claim it to be.

The idiots can't even bother to look it up, even with this link, provided for their enlightenment, ***HERE***

They are prime examples of what it means to be a "2." in kindergarten-speak, to provide understanding for their level of educational development.

Ummm yes I thought it was obvious to any rational human being that a woman who voluntarily utilizes a medically approved procedure due to dangers in her health or because the child might be severely deformed is in no way related to the topic of Torture.

And even if a woman was to use this procedure in a purely "elective" fashion it would still not be classified as "torture".
#211 | Posted by donnerboy at 2010-03-10 02:58 PM | Reply | Flag:

I have to ask - you don't think I meant to infer it was torture on the mother do you? I hope that was the case, because it is obviously torture on the child.

You think otherwise, you lose all credibility on any discussion of torture and value of human life fuckstain.

Maybe you are being willfully ignorant to the fact his legislation was a sign of retreat.

#219 | Posted by crispee_oc

How could it possibly be retreat when the Mission Was Accomplished and there is now Victory in Iraq according to Fixed News!

And, yes, Nimrod is slang for slow-witted in America which, of course, is where I am.

nice try tho tadpole-crispee-critter-fly

Donner, the boy, says, "And, yes, Nimrod is slang for slow-witted in America which, of course, is where I am."

As mentioned, I do so enjoy the fact that the disadvantaged in wit so thoroughly cement themselves into being such; by assuming that their understanding of the meaning of words is correct ... and if you disagree, then you are the "slow-witted" ... not their ignorance, no siree!

"Common" usage is enough "education" for them, and who needs any old books and such ...?

And, yes, Nimrod is slang for slow-witted in America which, of course, is where I am.
#223 | Posted by donnerboy at 2010-03-10 05:32 PM

I remember, you are part of the intelligent crowd. I guess that would make you Wile E Coyote Super Genuis? Seeing as it it took a couple of posts before you figured out I was speaking of Iraq and not Afghanistan.
2.bp.blogspot.com

Genuis...?
Damn!!!

while waterboarding or whatever else improves national security
#2 | Posted by tadowe

I've never seen anything that says any of this torture helped anything. Please prove me wrong.

I have to ask - you don't think I meant to infer it was torture on the mother do you? I hope that was the case, because it is obviously torture on the child.

You think otherwise, you lose all credibility on any discussion of torture and value of human life fuckstain.

#222 | Posted by ELCIDCE90

I knew exactly what you were trying to infer.

I think maybe you need to use yer Urban dictionary and look up abortion and torture.

You will see that the two are entirely different.

For example torture is usually used to try and extract "information" though torture is also done to animals by some real sick individuals...

Abortion is Termination of an unwanted or abnormal pregnancy.

I did find it humorous that they said abortion was the only form of killing that republicans oppose!

The two subjects are only related in your mind. Do you really believe that a woman would intentionally inflict pain on a fetus to increase it's suffering or to extract information or to just be cruel?

If so...I think we know who the "fuckstain" is here!

"slow-witted in America'

that was pretty funny!

Crispee Critter- I knew you were talking about Iraq... I was talking about BOTH wars, which of course, included Iraq.

"A) Techniques that don't use torture are more effective"

Sometimes a resounding no.

"Also from a historical perspective the mass use of torture"

We are not talking about the mass use of torture.
#152 | Posted by JeffJ at 2010-03-10 07:55 AM

How not so? Enhanced interrogation techniques were performed around the world - at the behest of and participation of United States military and intelligence communities. Not just one or two places - everyplace where this was practiced torture ensued - = en mass.

TFD says, "I've never seen anything that says any of this torture helped anything. Please prove me wrong."

It is "torture" to hear the same effort to defame through progressive rote disguised as political debate. And, there is the rub, so to speak, and since the left is attempting to equate virtually everything as being "torture".

Torture, in and of itself, is obviously a flawed method of interrogation, and if used, is usually conducted as punishment, not any actual effort to gain intelligence. However, beatings must still be considered "okay" by the leftists, and since the police forces of *all* liberal cities use it to gain "information" ... even that bastion of liberality from which issued the icon of Progressivism venerated by Democrats: Chicago ...

However, the appearance of torture can be an effective tool of interrogation; for example a show of force/death being the result of not answering the interrogator's questions. Even so, the information or data must be corroborated through other sources/channels.

One of those was a favorite of the Viet Cong, who would take a condemned prisoner and place him among other POWs. Then, pretend to interrogate the condemned, then beat or shoot them, as an example of non-compliance with interrogations ...

That would work on the leftist ilk, for sure! That's why they've made it into "torture" to pretend to shoot a POW ... even by inference to do so ... they can pretend that by making it "illegal" that it won't be used on them (while Black Panthers bring batons to the voting booths for "security") ....

The cowardly, neo-socialist ilk will be the yellow-bellied end of our nation ... if they have it "their way" ... and the SDS and Black Panther crowd will protect them from the rightwing menace ...

....since the left is attempting to equate virtually everything as being "torture".

Typical Tadpole rant.

Stating a false premise and then basing your entire argument on it.

Nicely done Rtard.

The fact that we consider waterboarding torture and that it was worse than even WE thought in no way proves that "the left is attempting to equate virtually everything as being "torture"."

But, please, do carry on with the RANT of the DAY!

Donner demos how to spin the propaganda, "The fact that we consider waterboarding torture and that it was worse than even WE thought in no way proves that "the left is attempting to equate virtually everything as being "torture"."

Waterboarding doesn't work on those who know what waterboarding is intended to do: gain information.

If no information is forthcoming, then waterboarding is abandoned ... why?

Because the purpose of any interrogation technique is to gain information ... not drown some innocent terrorist ...

This is just another example of where ignorance is made the prey of leftist stooges intent on reviling all of the USA, not just the rightwing, but you stupid idiots along with the more intelligent and educated conservative ...

And, you cretins join them in reviling the USA ... shameless, anti-patriots for votes Democrats ...

And, you cretins join them in reviling the USA ... shameless, anti-patriots for votes Democrats ...

#14 | Posted by tadowe

Wow, just wow!!! Tadowe the tea-bagger.

I've got a question for you. Suppose you were in charge of 'getting information' from a captive and you were instructed to 'use any means'.

Could you break their fingers and cut their genitals and electrocute them? I assuming you could because you believe if it 'saves america' then it would be worth it, right?.

Don't you understand that if that is the rule, then america is dead already.

What we need is testimony from those who performed these things. A full disclosure might verify that they were not acting necessarily within the confines of intelligence gathering, but perhaps programming. What those videos would explain is precisely why 183 waterboardings? Are they merely attempting to drown then resuscitate as many times they can? Isn't this all too similar to Nazi medical experiments? Isla puts a twist on the waterboarding.

Ilsa.. damned. Anyhow, enjoy! (you sick bastards)

everyplace where this was practiced torture ensued - = en mass.

How many people did the CIA torture..

Do any of you have a clue?

Even the remotest clue... Around the world indeed.

I just read redlights blast on the 9/11 conspiracy.. Thermite..... Keep dreaming... Overwhelming evidence... I love how they write this crap....

Lip wonders, "Suppose you were in charge of 'getting information' from a captive and you were instructed to 'use any means'."

I was stationed in an advisory status while in Vietnam, and at the National Police Headquarters and prison, at that time dedicated to POW Viet Cong Chieu Hoi's and NVA regulars of higher rank.

Interrogations took place almost daily, and without the need for any kind of torture; outside of the normal institutional callousness towards prisoners anywhere in the world.

The only threat was to be removed from such a cushiony sort of prison, in comparison to the Con Son 'tiger pits' where POWs and impenitent criminals were maintained, and where just existing was torture of a kind; living in a hole in the ground.

"Could you break their fingers and cut their genitals and electrocute them? I assuming you could because you believe if it 'saves america' then it would be worth it, right?."

That, of course, is an individual decision, and you can't stop it, or even encourage it; except that it be done to some rightwinger ...

Your "question" is intended to revile and dehumanize me, but you fool your ilk every time that way, since they are knee-jerk intellectuals and reflexively agree with you, like the collective puppets your ilk just happens to be.

"Don't you understand that if that is the rule, then america is dead already."

The USA began to die of socialist rot when Roosevelt and a complicit Democrat controlled congress "voted" for "Voluntry" Individual Income Tax and Withholding ...

The rest is just another sad example of a democracy going to anarchy because you selfish leeches can vote for those who promise you won't have to work ... or make you believe you won't ... like the ineffable party faithful with Gore as your prophet and Obama as the Messiach ...

Afghanistan is known as the ``graveyard of empires''

Sick of reading this... Can anyone post a like to any war where the Afghanis defeated any empire in all of history?


Alexander the great took all of five minutes to tear them a new ass...

The Persians tore them a new ass..

The English tore them a new ass though they did lose 4000 men in the first campaign with only one british survivor..

But the English were back for a second time but having achieved all their other objectives, the British withdrew.

Then the English kicked their asses again in 1919...

after that they fought each other until the Russians attacked in 1979 and were tied up in a police action for ten years.

Where is this graveyard of Empires????

We kicked their asses in three minutes.. Whats going on today is Drug interdiction... The Taliban Sell a lot of Heroin. That is what they are fighting for... Drug money... Allah has nothing to do with it and if you think it is about Allah you are naive...

But they certainly never defeated anyone and I for one am sick of reading the often Parroted Grave Yard of Empires...

An Afghani named Mahmud Tarzi, an Afghan Minister of Foreign Affairs in the early 20th Century coined the phrase and some Idiot reporter used in a press relese.

Give me a break already.... They never defeated anyone.

It is only known as the graveyard of empires to Idiots who don't know History...

The rest of us laugh at you when you leave the room.

In what way? Don't tell me you think the POW camp dubbed Hanoi Hilton was actually a real hotel do you? Sorry, bad joke...

Let's start with the treatment they receive in GITMO compared to what the American prisoners faced. The special diets, soccer, Korans... How could one even compare?

#59 | Posted by crispee_oc at 2010-03-09 09:47 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

Well then, lets start with W. and Karl calling McCain a "traitor" in 2000.

Don't you just love it when a mother eats their own.

Oh, Boo, Hoo, HOO.. . Poor murdering thugs. They had to swallow a little water.

Our people had to choose whether to jump 90 stories out of the World Trade Center or be burned to death on 9/11.

I just read redlights blast on the 9/11 conspiracy.. Thermite..... Keep dreaming... Overwhelming evidence... I love how they write this crap....
#233 | Posted by themaniscoming at 2010-03-10 09:03 PM

Hey, I like to be fair including some element of the mysteriously ridiculed as well as the bizarre science conspiracy when necessary. Evil genius need love too, and I aim to share that sentiment and pity them outright through sarcasm and mild mental evisceration. You, I imagine recognize that I write most opinions responding from a direct outcome, initiate informational drive, and then simply apply your assertion carelessly - regardless any bothersome contradiction to common canon of 9/11! It's that easy! It's now fair to say that "I believe we could have been victimized by a elaborate, pre-planned false flag operations conducted while the Bush administration were already gearing up for an invasion of Iraq for oil! Let's join Al-Qaeda this Christmas!" S-s-s-super! Or, you see the humor and ignore it's implication, I feel pathetic and you become distant. We act like we deserve these times, perhaps we love hating our love-hating? Ca-caaaw! A skinny bend uncounted before it began to rend and grow and transcend and knows implementation of a national trend like a virus-interruptus catching cough carriers now Drudgings depends entirely upon palatable advertising flavor this one says "believe" it's Barry-colada with a hot toddy sauna orgasm against the wall in granada or maybe it's not that hot heat but cold feet clammy clapping kleets klinking chipping ice like a "non-believer" sipping a neo-tini it's weenie still bleeding is needing less bandaging and more vermouth Habib fundamentalistally they leak sex like a fucking sieve no wonder God allows Mohammad to advertise such weave I mean please disprove Rove knew Valarie Plames cover blew from Novak's spew on you know who.

Oh, Boo, Hoo, HOO.. . Poor murdering thugs. They had to swallow a little water.
Our people had to choose whether to jump 90 stories out of the World Trade Center or be burned to death on 9/11.
#237 | Posted by Kissntell at 2010-03-10 10:17 PM

They were made to "breathe water and drown", child. This is alarming to anyone of reasonable demeanor, I can share some awe at such audacity too. It's simply impressive enough - to utilize a fluid that reduces the risk of murdering the prisoner while permitting the process to be undergone allowing for 12 minutes of total drowning per day. I'm quite unaware of what the questions were, and without video I'm reduced to guesswork. They wouldn't answer religious inquiries? Terrorism topics? Perhaps they had their throats affixed with biometric devices for amphibious research? Anything is possible.. even no questions at all, just one day of drowning after another.. It's quite utterly insane.

Conservative Radio Host Naysayer Gets Waterboarded - "I admit it, It's torture"

Christopher Hitchens Gets Waterboarded

Secret Waterboarding Instructional Video

Waterboarding IS torture which is exactly why the SEALS are trained to deal with it.

The USA is torturing SEALS?? Where is the outrage? Why don't the SEALs sue?

#20 | Posted by homerj

Didn't Read The Fucking Article Again Flag.

The difference between the seal training and the actual torture was profound. In some cases it was the difference between life and death.

FTFA:

While Bush-Cheney officials defended the legality and safety of waterboarding by noting the practice has been used to train U.S. service members to resist torture, the documents show that the agency's methods went far beyond anything ever done to a soldier during training. U.S. soldiers, for example, were generally waterboarded with a cloth over their face one time, never more than twice, for about 20 seconds, the CIA admits in its own documents.

These memos show the CIA went much further than that with terror suspects, using huge and dangerous quantities of liquid over long periods of time. The CIA's waterboarding was "different" from training for elite soldiers, according to the Justice Department document released last month. "The difference was in the manner in which the detainee's breathing was obstructed," the document notes. In soldier training, "The interrogator applies a small amount of water to the cloth (on a soldier's face) in a controlled manner," DOJ wrote. "By contrast, the agency interrogator ... continuously applied large volumes of water to a cloth that covered the detainee's mouth and nose."


It's a bullshit argument.

/Not that THAT's gonna stop you repeating it endlessly, of course. Discredited and nonsensical sound bytes being thlimit of yer debating skills.

Read the Fucking Article next time.

Be Well.

I AM curious as to what prompted the release of these internal CIA documents, so damning to the Bush/Cheney administration.

Especially in light of the recent spate of a Rove and Cheney blitz in the media, justifying themselves and George Bush as glorious defenders and protectors of America's freedoms.

This is the kind of stuff that would be used as evidence at a War Crimes trial, isn't it?

While Obama was certainly against distracting the country with juicy investigations and such, presumably because he wanted all the country's focus on his agenda, I'm wondering if he was counting on the drip-drip-drip of damning evidence to do the job for him, eventually leading to a War Crimes trial.

Since Obama seems to be looking at a bigger picture than any of us are capable to seeing, I wouldn't be the least surprised.

For those of us who wanted to see Bush and Cheney drawn and quartered, first crack out of the new President's box, we may get our vengence yet.

Ahh Donnerboy, thanks for the laugh this morning. Your ignorance and childish name calling only reinforce my stance. You have no argument, so you stoop to name calling and cursing. You have no substance to base your arguments off of, so you make shit up in you head and try to pass it off as true legit. information. Maybe one day you will wake up, but until then keep entertaining me with your leftist crazyness, its quite amuzing when you get mad.

its quite amuzing when you get mad.

Almost as amusing as watching you try to spell or make a serious point.

Face it, you haven't sed one damn thing of note since you got here.

You have less substance than a soap bubble.

"Does "wormfood" refer to the dead meat between your ears?

Be Well.

Dethspud, I made my point apparently clear in my first post. It was the leftist like yourself, who devolved a simple argument into a mudslinging, name calling tirade. Waterboarding save lives, they should have done much worse in my opinion. They should waterboard that Hadji Jane nutbag and all of her associates.

Would this be one solution?... Tell the interrogators what they want to know??

I say that if there is truly legitimate reason to believe that any scum... errr.. I mean "detainee" has information that can save Americans' lives - anything goes. Sign me up to fill the water buckets. F them.

Interesting story following this one about Christians being "hacked to death" in Nigeria.

JM

Waterboarding save lives,

Spud'll assume you meant "saved" there and call you a liar.

You obviously bought into Cheney's bullshit that waterboarding produced actionable intel.

It didn't.

FBI statements have confirmed that all actionable intel came from the use of standard interrogation techniques while waterboarding produced only false intel that muddied the waters.

Conversely, America's use of torture has been a big recruiting tool for the extremists which has arguably cost lives.

Erog, you are a morally bankrupt moron.

K?

Be Well.

Erog = Ergo

Be Well.

/Spud's second rule of blog-world FTW!

They could have been so much meaner...they could have strapped the little bombers down and forced them to watch endless loops of AlGore, Nancy Pelosi, and Harry Reid.....

Do you really believe that a woman would intentionally inflict pain on a fetus to increase it's suffering or to extract information or to just be cruel?

If so...I think we know who the "fuckstain" is here!

#238 | Posted by donnerboy at 2010-03-10 05:47 PM | Reply | Flag:

1. Definition of Torture
Torture includes such practices as searing with hot irons, burning at the stake, electric shock treatment to the genitals, CUTTING OUT PARTS OF THE BODY, e.g. tongue, entrails (DOES BRAIN COUNT HERE DIPSHIT) or genitals, severe beatings, suspending by the legs with arms tied behind back, applying thumbscrews, inserting a needle under the fingernails, drilling through an unanesthetized tooth, making a person crouch for hours in the Z' position, waterboarding (submersion in water or dousing to produce the sensation of drowning), and denying food, water or sleep for days or weeks on end.[3]

All of these practices presuppose that the torturer has control over the victim's body, e.g. the victim is strapped to a chair.

plato.stanford.edu

Donner - your a sick motherfucker and there is no hope for you. Just because the child is not being asked questions does not mean it is not experiencing "torture". What a fucking piece of slimeball you are. Too bad you could not experience a partial birth abortion for yourself - my guess is you would definately feel "tortured". Asshole. Why do you think you pro-death people do not want sonagrams or videos of the procedure shown to women prior to obtaining one? Go climb back under your rock you slimeball. Again, your value of life is BS. Your faux outrage is apparent.

Man.... you have an interesting perspective on history...it is not quite as you describe though.

Alexander the Great did conquer Afghanistan...but then HE conquered everyone.

He died four years later.

Four years later, Alexander died. Then his cavalry commander, Seleucus, seized control of the eastern part of his empire. Greek rulers would maintain control over most of Afghanistan until 150 BC, when Parthian nomads arrived.

The Persians tore them a new ass..

nope... defeated...couldn't hold it.

The Afghans then defeated twice a large Persian army that was dispatched from Isfahan (capital of the Persian Safavid Empire).

Several half-hearted attempts to subdue the rebellious city having failed, the Persian Government despatched Khusraw Khn, nephew of the late Gurgn Khn, with an army of 30,000 men to effect its subjugation, but in spite of an initial success, which led the Afghns to offer to surrender on terms, his uncompromising attitude impelled them to make a fresh desperate effort, resulting in the complete defeat of the Persian army (of whom only some 700 escaped) and the death of their general. Two years later, in A.D. 1713, another Persian army commanded by Rustam Khn was also defeated by the rebels, who thus secured possession of the whole province of Qandahr.[17]

The Persian armies were defeated and the area of Kandahar was made into an independent local kingdom.

The English tore them a new ass though they did lose 4000 men in the first campaign with only one british survivor..

But the English were back for a second time but having achieved all their other objectives, the British withdrew.

Then the English kicked their asses again in 1919...

In 1878, the British invaded again, beginning the Second Anglo-Afghan War.

nope defeated...couldn't hold it...paid a tremendous price too in blood and treasure. Went back in August 1842 and after inflicting reprisals and securing the release of prisoners taken during the retreat from Kabul hey withdrew from Afghanistan through the Khyber Pass. Dost Muhammad was released, reestablished his authority in Kabul, and died on June 9, 1863.

btw the english lost 16,000 men (3,600 were soldiers) in the Destruction of Elphinstone's army.

Lady Butler's famous painting of Dr. William Brydon, initially thought to be the sole survivor, gasping his way to the British outpost in Jalalabad, helped make Afghanistan's reputation as a graveyard for foreign armies and became one of the great epics of Empire.

after that they fought each other until the Russians attacked in 1979 and were tied up in a police action for ten years.

hmmm Soviets tried to occupy Afghanistan but went home with their tails between their legs. Thought we all knew the Soviets were bogged down for years helping to bleed their empire of blood and treasure and helping cause the collapse of the Soviet Union.

maybe YOU should take history class again. You missed something.

I stand by my statement... Afghanistan is known as the graveyard of Empires for a reason.

#265 | Posted by ELCIDCE90

you Sir are a raving lunatic who has spent way too much time in GlennBeckistan.

-Afghanistan is known as the graveyard of Empires for a reason.

Yes, all those nations that were trying to help the Afghan people fight a dilapidated Taliban insurgency and failed.

Amazing stuff.

Is it just me or have you noticed how the wingnuts here love to dish out the insults and name calling (as though it was some sort of ritual tribal greeting) but when we return the favor and and greet them in their own language (wormfood and elcid come to mind here) they get all indignation and or they increase the number insults exponentially!

indignation=indignant

(spud blogrule #2!)

#269 | Posted by donnerboy at 2010-03-11 01:03 PM | Reply | Flag: Thinks he never flung an insult on the DR.

Everyone who believes that stand up.

And donner - raving yes, lunatic? Not so much - you being someone who does not think partial birth abortion is torture on the child I would be careful throwing around words like lunatic.

Thinks he never flung an insult on the DR.

yes...I fling them back... thought that is how you wingnuts like to communicate.

Elcid- you being someone who thinks partial birth abortion is torture on the child is obviously a lunatic.

equating partial birth abortion to torture is a recent tactic that was imported from glennbeckistan.

In fact as usual you have it bassackwards!

did you know

After reviewing the situation in Nicaragua against the obligations of the state under the Convention against Torture, the UN Committee concluded that the State Party should revise its legal framework in relation to abortion. The expert Committee observed that the complete ban gave them cause for profound concern, as it exposes women and girls to a constant threat of serious violations to their rights, particularly if continuation of the pregnancy posed a threat to their life, or for victims of rape.

"The Committee is sending a clear message to the Nicaraguan state: So long as the complete ban with no exceptions is in place, you will be in breach of your international legal obligations to protect human rights," said Widney Brown, Senior Director, International Law and Policy at Amnesty International. "If this complete ban were to stay, women and girls would continue to be at risk of torture, cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment. Such inaction would show a cruel indifference to the physical pain, psychological anguish and lack of human dignity this law causes women and girls in Nicaragua to suffer by denying and thwarting their access to essential medical treatment during pregnancy."

Ok I am ready for my insults now.

is obviously a lunatic. = is obviously lunacy!

dang! (spud rule 2 again!)

Yes, all those nations that were trying to help the Afghan people fight a dilapidated Taliban insurgency and failed.

Amazing stuff.

#268 | Posted by Corky

I am not saying we cannot be successful. I believe our cause is just. But, we should not forget or ignore the lessons of of the past (you know like GW Bush did in Iraq).

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

I didn't start by slinging insults, although I will admit to comming down to your level, which I have only myself to blame for that. Looking forward to the midterms, perhaps the new crew of polticians will bring with them a smorgasbord of torture techniques far worse than waterboarding.

perhaps the new crew of polticians will bring with them a smorgasbord of torture techniques far worse than waterboarding.

Not Debbie Gibson CD's please!

- But, we should not forget or ignore the lessons of of the past

The current commanders don't seem to have that problem.

No one wants to be there, and everyone knows the dangers.

What everyone doesn't seem to realize is that this is not Iraq.

Ok I am ready for my insults now.

#272 | Posted by donnerboy at 2010-03-11 02:04 PM | Reply | Flag:

I have no insult to compare with the one you fling at human life. If partial birth abortion is not torture - why don't you try one? Show us all - prove it doesn't hurt. You libtards rack Hannity for not following through - so by all means, go have your brains sucked out and report back how it feels. You obviously missed the definition I posted on what "torture" was. At least watch a video of a partial birth abortion - or look up the procedures. If you are a parent (God help the world) and can read or look at either of those without thinking of torture - you are inhuman.

go have your brains sucked out and report back how it feels.

perhaps you can tell me how it feels?

You have obviously had your brains sucked out already at least once.

#279 | Posted by donnerboy at 2010-03-11 02:56 PM | Reply | Flag:

What? Chicken donner? If its not torture, why are you afraid? I realize the straw would be small in your case, and only take a second, but please, put the issue to rest - give it a try. I will totally change my mind when you report back that it was completely painless and you did not suffer a lick.

I wait in great anticipation of your report.

I didn't start by slinging insults

yet this is how he entered the thread

All the weak leftist should exile themselves from this country.

then this

you bleeding heart lefties....run you nasties right out of office....you far left, racist hatemongers...

then he proceeds to

Maybe instead of smoking dope and hugging trees you could learn to spell....Sorry if your parents didn't hug you enough or wipe your ass enough for you when you were younger.

your vitriol IS a bit lighter than most of the Wingnut ritual communication methods here on the DR.

I guess we'd call that Wingnut Light. Tastes Great! Less Filling!

If partial birth abortion is not torture - why don't you try one?

A root canal is not "torture" either.
an abdominal resection for colon cancer is not "torture" either.
a total knee replacement is not "torture" either.
There are hundreds of MEDICAL procedures that are extremely painful...

Not going to go out and try any of those things for your goofy ass.

Your argument is idiotic.

A fetus is not a baby and is not self aware and therefor cannot suffer like you and I and I don't know of any "pro-death" people other than those who support more WARs and capital punishment.

But do carry on with your Lunatic Rant tho...it is getting interesting seeing go thru contortions trying to equate torture with abortion (even partial birth).

BTW did you even read my post where DENYING abortions could be considered torture by the UN?

Also, I am not pro abortion I am pro choice. Get yer "Glennbeckian labels" straight.

I would prefer better family planning with no abortions and especially no late term or partial abortions.

I also want an end to poverty, all wars, hunger, disease, (and for you especially) illiteracy and peace on earth and good swill for Man.

Don't see any of that happening anytime soon either.


Also, I am not pro abortion I am pro choice.

#282 | Posted by donnerboy at 2010-03-11 03:32 PM | Reply | Flag:

Biggest fucking cop-out in the world. And comparisons to other medical procedures show you are actually pro-death. You have now entered HERM territory comparing a root canal to a partial birth abortion.

At 20 weeks:

www.babycenter.com

Yeah - a blob of tissue right you asshole? Again, please go through the procedure yourself and tell me its not torture - 1. Definition of Torture
Torture includes such practices as searing with hot irons, burning at the stake, electric shock treatment to the genitals, CUTTING OUT PARTS OF THE BODY, e.g. tongue, entrails (DOES BRAIN COUNT HERE DIPSHIT) or genitals, severe beatings, suspending by the legs with arms tied behind back, applying thumbscrews, inserting a needle under the fingernails, drilling through an unanesthetized tooth, making a person crouch for hours in the Z' position, waterboarding (submersion in water or dousing to produce the sensation of drowning), and denying food, water or sleep for days or weeks on end.[3]

Fuck the UN definition (and fuck the UN for that matter), this came from Stanford. plato.stanford.edu

You have now entered HERM territory comparing a root canal to a partial birth abortion.

hmmmm While I don't really agree that I think a partial birth abortion is like a root canal I think sharing territory with HERM is better that than entering lunatic fringe territory with you and comparing abortion to torture.

The mother has the right to elect to do this procedure especially if the life and health of the patient at risk or in case of rape (though I can't imagine why one would wait).

I also believe that the state can and should properly restrict late-term abortions. But we should have a provision to protect the health of the mother.

This is a reasonable position.

Can you say your position is reasonable?

But we should have a provision to protect the health of the mother.

#284 | Posted by donnerboy at 2010-03-11 04:03 PM | Reply | Flag:

Just because the provision is reasonable, does not eliminate the suffering of the child. Or change the fact that the child will feel pain and suffering caused by outside influences through no fault of its own. The child will have its brains forcebly removed from its skull. Mother's rights have nothing to do with this fact. The child is being tortured to death.

Please take your reasonable arguments to the dead children when you see them. I am sure the same reasonable arguments occured prior to the beheading of certain journalists.

And you did compare abortions upthread to a root canal in addition to the following:

....an abdominal resection for colon cancer is not "torture" either.
a total knee replacement is not "torture" either.
There are hundreds of MEDICAL procedures that are extremely painful...

But we should have a provision to protect the health of the mother.
#284 | Posted by donnerboy at 2010-03-11 04:03 PM

Just because the provision is reasonable, does not eliminate the suffering of the child. Or change the fact that the child will feel pain and suffering caused by outside influences through no fault of its own. The child will have its brains forcebly removed from its skull. Mother's rights have nothing to do with this fact. The child is being tortured to death.
Please take your reasonable arguments to the dead children when you see them. I am sure the same reasonable arguments occured prior to the beheading of certain journalists.
And you did compare abortions upthread to a root canal in addition to the following:
....an abdominal resection for colon cancer is not "torture" either.
a total knee replacement is not "torture" either.
There are hundreds of MEDICAL procedures that are extremely painful...
#285 | Posted by ELCIDCE90 at 2010-03-11 04:46 PM

It's self-evident that what was performed on the detainees was intended to be torturous. No question. What was asked of them is unknown. The videos have been disappeared. No inquiry into what the interrogators were doing specifically. All we have is third-hand analysis of CIA internal documents and the word of whistle-blowers who are under threat of disappearance as well.

This is not a good scenario to compare with abortion - but the parallels are that both have been legalized at one time or another. Both seem primitive means to justify their ends. Both are controversial and morally repugnant. Yes, I suppose that the similarities continue into procedures and outcomes - 39 missing detainees indicates a slightly different ratio of end resulting in immediate death than abortion which is close to 100%. But we know the interrogators keep trying.. and that doesn't disturb you?

You keep us SAFE? From the enemies you CREATE?

#9 | Posted by SpeakSoftly

Has to be the most ludicrous comment I've seen in some time. And must come from a person who loves to hate America first and loath themselves as well. We didn't create every person or organization that hates America and would do harm to her if they could. And you are an ignorant fool to think we did. People like you truly make me sick, and I don't feel that way about many people in general. But your kind is something special.

I suppose we created imperialist Japan and Nazi's too. May as well say we created the Russians while you're at it. People hate America because of what we represent. Freedom and liberty. They despise those things because they fear that their citizens will want them too. But tools such as yourself make simple minded comments that over generalize the true nature of things because you think it makes you sound cool and hip and with the in crowd. It's cool to hate America. Just think what it would be like if we stopped every bit of our aid that we send all over the world. Then people might have an actual legitimate reason to be upset with America.

By the way, we DO keep your ass safe whether you believe it or not. You're welcome, asshole.

The child will have its brains forcebly removed from its skull. Mother's rights have nothing to do with this fact. The child is being tortured to death.
Please take your reasonable arguments to the dead children when you see them. I am sure the same reasonable arguments occured prior to the beheading of certain journalists.

therein lies your fallacy.

There is no "child" involved. It is a fetus. This medical procedure is done to theoretically save the life of the mother not to "torture" the fetus.

Does the fetus have the right to kill the mother in other to survive?

I have not seen a case where the doctor got some kind of thrill by doing this procedure. Is there another procedure that can be done in place of this procedure to save the mother?

The root canal is also a medical procedure when done voluntarily but it can be considered "torture" when done against the will of victim (see Marathon Man)

So if you are saying that a Partial Birth Abortion, when done as a medical procedure to save the life of the mother is ok but when done against the will of the mother or for other non health related reasons it could be considered torture then I might agree.

Otherwise, my original assessment of you being a raving Glennbeckian lunatic still stands.

In the normal (non raving lunatic) world abortion is not considered torture...partial birth or otherwise.

So you can take your rantings back to GlennBeckistan(I love that word! so useful!)

italics off! I command thee!

Parroting brainwashed people...

Example number one.

were already gearing up for an invasion of Iraq for oil!

Only problem there is Russia and China are the largest buyers of Iraqi oil.. Buyers Bush family not even mentioned... Exxon is owned by Rockefeller Family... Not Bush Family.

Example number two.

Rove knew Valarie Plames cover

Mr. Armitage blew Plames cover not Rove..

Example number three

Water boarding brings us down to the same level as the terrorists.

The stupidest one of them all... I dare you to watch this Spuds... You won't have the Balls to watch this. If you think that throwing or pouring water in the face of a Terrorist brings us anywhere near this level you are a sad sad sad person. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Watch this. If you have the Balls. Then tell me waterboarding brings us down to that level.
www.homelandsecurityus.com

The reason why the Democrats will be driving out of Washington after the next election is that The Majority of the people in this nation don't agree with the likes of Spud and his Ilk. The Mentally deranged postings on this one subject is proof of how unstable a liberal can become.

He will post and post and post Nonsense... Dribble.... And pathetic views on how evil we are... You are one sick person there Spuds. I hope you get help.

He will post and post and post Nonsense... Dribble.... And pathetic views on how evil we are... You are one sick person there Spuds. I hope you get help.

Do you know how ridiculous you look when you condone the inhumane treatment of another human because of the "Mommy, Mommy, THEY did it first!!!" reason?

The BushCo "normal" was what is sick. America decided they wanted no more of it. Normal Americans (i.e. The Majority) does not condone the use of torture.

You thinking that they still do is what is pathetic.

come on insult me wingnuts!

We can push this over 300 fer the spudster!

bring it!

Do you know how ridiculous you look

Just as I thought... Didn't have the balls...

There you go now go and blow yourself

There you go now go and blow yourself

#294 | Posted by themaniscoming

thank you Man!

Cid?

Here's the writing on the wall...

The post below this one is titled Christians Hacked To Death.....

Mr. DeathSpud hasn't made a single comment in there.... He is only concerned with damning America... Proof That he is just a politically motivated Hack!

Where is your Passion for the Common man there Spud

He could care less. Over 200 Posts there and not one of them from the Torture hating Spud... I guess Hacking people to death is not as bad as water boarding...

How full of shit is this guy!

Awesome Cumming Man!

one more!

And who the hell is Cid? Asshole..

#297 | Posted by themaniscoming

#285 | Posted by ELCIDCE90 at 2010-03-11 04:46 PM | Reply | Flag

ding ding ding!

ok... I outa here spudster...

ding ding ding!

ok... I outa here spudster...

Well that is just sad.... Donnerboy lives for Spuds numbers... Worship is an evil thing there Bonerboy......

Oh boy 304!!!!

There ya Go Spuge Ya got to 300!!!!! Now go jerk off in the dark and pat yourself on the back......

#301 | Posted by themaniscoming

and you helped so give yerself a little squeeze too you big ole cummingman you!

but you best check with your doctor first and see if you are healthy enough for sexual activity...judging from your posts I would bet you have high blood pressure.

The post below this one is titled Christians Hacked To Death.....

Mr. DeathSpud hasn't made a single comment in there.... He is only concerned with damning America... Proof That he is just a politically motivated Hack!

Where is your Passion for the Common man there Spud

He could care less. Over 200 Posts there and not one of them from the Torture hating Spud... I guess Hacking people to death is not as bad as water boarding...

How full of shit is this guy!

#298 | Posted by themaniscoming

seems u is the one full o shit o cummingman...spud posted #18 on that thread... now you may go back to touching yourself.

Erog = Ergo

Be Well.

/Spud's second rule of blog-world FTW!

#263 | Posted by dethspud at 2010-03-11 08:26 AM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

I'll be in Calgary Monday.... wanna have a beer?

Well you are correct Spud did post in there... Once... I did a search for deathspud and he didn't come up. Anyway? Here is what the Passionate Spud had to say about the people being hacked to death..

"The left has made no bones about the fact they'd like to see all Christians dead."

Might be the dumbest thing posted on the DR so far this year. Politically Based statement... No Concern for the people who were actually hacked to death.

Which is reaaaallly saying sommat. More Spud Passion

On Topic?

Murder is a sin. There You Go... The Spud God said his piece.... 4 Words on the people who were hacked to death

Killing in the name of any God is antithetical to the stated goals and philosophies of practically every mainstream religion. And then the typical Moral Of The Story In Spudanese...

Be Well.

He sounds so concerned...

But wait there Spuds... Some guy up above wants to have a gay hook up with ya...

Maybe you should go...

He's still a phony bastard.

He sounds like he had to force himself to actually come up with something to say... Why?

Because Bush didn't hack the Christians to death that's why...

Stay In Canada Spuds... We wouldn't want you here anyway.

I stand corrected... Spud had a total of FOUR WORDS for the people who were HACKED TO DEATH!!!!!!

Proof that if we Hack the terrorists to death instead of water boarding them, SPUD Might Shut The Hell UP.

Here's the thing, "THEMAN...", um, when people are prisoners it's generally considered evil to torture them, regardless of how bad you think they are. That's the discussion here, in case you missed it, or were too stupid to notice. Unless you are a moral relativist, our conduct with prisoners is dependent on our values and not theirs. Unless, of course, you prefer the values of our enemies, in which case we should adopt theirs in defense of ours; or something indefensible like that.

The only excuse for embracing moral depravity for the perceived moral depravity of your enemies is fear, and that's not much of an argument.

Just out of curiosity, "themaniscoming", what is your handle intended to mean?

The only excuse for embracing moral depravity for the perceived moral depravity of your enemies is fear, and that's not much of an argument.

www.youtube.com

I'm not linking to a youtube link without explanation, or from someone I don't trust. And both apply in your case. If you want circulation, you'll have to do better than that. It may make you feel better to spam away, but I doubt anyone has seen your links.

By "theman" do you mean Jesus?

Will you deny him three times as well?

Before the cock crows

But wait there Spuds... Some guy up above wants to have a gay hook up with ya...

#307 | Posted by themaniscoming at 2010-03-11 09:27 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

gay hook up? fucking clown.

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