Is Pluto a Planet? | Drudge Retort

It's a planet.

Watched Tyson's The Pluto Files last night on PBS--

Terrific show.

Neil pointed out in the end we need to modify the way we think about the solar system. That's how science works.

Planet is a Greek concept.

Glad you watched.

And thank you Walt Disney, wherever you are.

Tyson is awesome.

Loved the history on Clyde and Streator, IL.

The thing that struck me is that there is Pluto and they found another similar shaped but bigger one they called Aries.

The when you have four insanely GIANT planets, four the size of Earth or thereabouts, why not Pluto and Aries?

Just because a chihuahua is small doesn't make it any less canine than a Great Dane.

At least call them 'dwarf planets'.

The solar system ran out of stuff to make them bigger because of the giant planets gobbling it up.

Can't wait for the exployer ship to get there in 2015.

My son commented that it would reach it 3 years after we are gone--2012--lol

Carl Sagan has an heir.

www.shirefolk.com

There was this night not long ago on the Coral Sea under an alien sky after a day of diving the Great Barrier Reef ... sleeping topside in the unfamiliar starlight.

It's ok to call it a dwarf--it still has the properties of a planet--just smaller ..

"Just because a chihuahua is small doesn't make it any less canine than a Great Dane"

I disagree. You can't stuff a Great Dane into a blender when it gets bitchy. Even that's rather moot, because Great Danes are real dogs and they don't get bitchy.

"You can't stuff a Great Dane into a blender"

Depends on the blender.

It's a planet to me. Back in Astronomy class in college they called it a planet.

Is Pluto A Planet?

No

"You can't stuff a Great Dane into a blender"

Depends on the blender.

#8 | Posted by Zatoichi

Umm yeah, but it also depends on the stuffer.

Goofy was cool too, but he couldn't talk.

What kind of cross-species weirdness was ol' Walt up to, anyways? Goofy is a dog, can talk, and wears clothes. Pluto is a dog, naked and barking. My God, what does it all mean???

Planet, asteroid, dwarf planet?

It is wonderfully ironic how the sciences which prides itself so much on precision is utterly dependent upon the vagaries and imprecision of a symbolic system such as language.

Taxonomy is a human invention of classification utterly bound by language and the shifting notions of how our experiences and knowledge can be classified. This too is dependent upon language-- as is any knowledge--even of ourselves.

Language always comes between ourselves and reality.

Hmmm, what arbitrary collection of sounds voiced through human vocal chords shall we use in order to discuss the sensory input we receive from looking through our instruments? And to make it more interesting we are only able to use other arbitrary collections of sounds to debate it.

Cheers

I'm with Dr. Tyson on this one. Sorry Pluto.
Have the Pluto Files on DVR. Yet to watch but I've heard him speak on the subject several times.

Have the Pluto Files on DVR. Yet to watch but I've heard him speak on the subject several times.

He does a great job and this was a fun and educational little flick.

Goofy talked? Pluto didn't? My bad, been too many years since.

#14 | Posted by Grendel at 2010-03-03 10:40 PM | Reply | Flag: keeps propping up it's little strawman while it still keeps missing the point

You've found a new low in stupid, stupid.

People who believe in scientific fact have no fucking clue what science is.

Let me try this again ... using transistors, those darlings of quantum mechanics:

Observation
Hypothesis
Experiment
Repeat

An hypothesis that survives is called a theory.

Theories are not real, nor are they true and they mean nothing.

They are merely ways of thinking about observations that yield consistent results within a well established framework.

And then some asshole does a better experiment and fucks it all up.

The theory that trapping energy within a closed system will raise the temperature of that system is well established.

Has been for centuries.

HAHAHAHAHAHA

The theory that trapping energy within a closed system will raise the temperature of that system is well established.

Has been for centuries.

HAHAHAHAHAHA

Global Warming Is Irreversible
www.npr.org

#13 | Posted by LetUsPrey

Speaking of Walt (from DR), I got an email from him. He's in Kuwait at the moment.

Flag: keeps propping up it's little strawman while it still keeps missing the point

You've found a new low in stupid, stupid.

Sorry, Zat. I just meant to make a comment related to language and epistemology, not undermine the foundation that props your ego.

Who would have thought that scientists were so insecure?

So relax. We are all quite impressed with you. We all wish we were you, and we all count our lives, intellects and experiences as small and inconsequential when compared to yours.

There, that should help you sleep better at night.

Cheers

"We all wish we were you"

You must be an impressive array of paint chips.

Is Pluto a planet?

No, Pluto's a dog.
Mercury's a messenger.
Mars is angry.
Jupiter's a thunderer.
Saturn is a great big farmer.
Neptune's in deep water.
Venus is a goddess.
And uranus is not a hole in the ground.

"We all wish we were you"

You must be an impressive array of paint chips.

Yeah, sure, whatever.

When I heard the learn'd astronomer;
When the proofs, the figures, were ranged in columns before me;
When I was shown the charts and the diagrams, to add, divide, and
measure them;
When I, sitting, heard the astronomer, where he lectured with much
applause in the lecture-room,
How soon, unaccountable, I became tired and sick;
Till rising and gliding out, I wander'd off by myself,
In the mystical moist night-air, and from time to time,
Look'd up in perfect silence at the stars.

Walt Whitman

"Walt Whitman"

Walt died in 1892, do try and keep up.

For his next moronic stupid human trick Grendel will use transistors to claim quantum mechanics is bogus.

Walt died in 1892, do try and keep up.

Ha, ha. Pefect.

A "scientist" reacts to poetry by commenting on temporal frames of reference!

Poetry: Zat :: Pearls : swine.

I'm guessing that Zat's point was that if Whitman were alive today he might have a greater appreciation for astronomy. Back then it was really dry, theoretical stuff, not much for a poet like Whitman to be inspired by. You can't look at the HST images today and not be amazed.

There was this night not long ago on the Coral Sea under an alien sky after a day of diving the Great Barrier Reef ... sleeping topside in the unfamiliar starlight.

#5 | Posted by Zatoichi at 2010-03-03 08:46 PM | Reply | Flag:

I thought Zat was writing poetry here, did not know he had that talent; it was a bon mot at least.

OTOH one does like to believe that facts are facts and measurements are true, that science is discovering true facts which are hard knowledge, not just designations based on an arbitrary shared language, although the Whorfian Hypothesis of linguistic relativity which Grendel espouses (apparently) has a great deal of validity regarding matters in non-scientific spheres of life.

I just think it is funny that Grendel points out that Zat has an insatiable superiority complex only minutes before Zat makes sure to tell hos how much he knows about something that is so terrible, yet irreversible and unchangeable.

Then Grendel has to remind him of his superiority complex and he gets all pissy and technical using inferior argument.

I disagree. You can't stuff a Great Dane into a blender when it gets bitchy. Even that's rather moot, because Great Danes are real dogs and they don't get bitchy.

#7 | Posted by valis

Yeah--the Great Dane doesn't get bitchy--it just eats you.

Yeah--the Great Dane doesn't get bitchy--it just eats you.

I've never met a Great Dane that wasn't lovable.

They are very sweet dogs.

I'm still pissed from finding out that tomatoes are fruits and not vegetables. This is just too much to handle.

I don't care what they say.

It's round.
It orbits the sun.
It orbits only the sun.
It has moons.

To me, that's a planet.

Bite me.

To me, the point of Whitman's poem isn't specifically about the dryness of astronomy or even astronomy in general; it's about the big picture. We can't get so caught up in the study of a "thing" that we forget to love the beauty of that "thing." Ironically, this concept is destroyed any time the poem is analyzed in a high school English class. Similarly, I always felt like a fraud when I taught transcendentalism and romanticism. "Go out, experience life, put away the books...but make sure to ask for a pass to leave the room!"

It's ok to call it a dwarf--it still has the properties of a planet--just smaller ..

#6 | Posted by MURPHY at 2010-03-03 08:50 PM | Reply | Flag:

Murph:

What about all that crap floating around in the asteroid belt. Some of those rocks are bigger than Pluto, they have a stable orbit, etc.

Does that make them planets also? Or just more gravel?

"Go out, experience life, put away the books..."

That will make you more interesting at parties, to be sure. But that's about it.

"What about all that crap floating around in the asteroid belt. Some of those rocks are bigger than Pluto, they have a stable orbit, etc."

I guess the argument aught to be that all of them should be considered planets too, but nobody ever makes that argument. They're usually more concerned with a personal attachment to Pluto than anything else. Plus they don't know what to do with the My Very Efficient Mother mnemonic if she isn't serving pizzas. or pickles or whatever.

Pluto's a fucking planet. I learned that in school. Don't fuck with it. Pluto's awesome.

It's ok to call it a dwarf--it still has the properties of a planet--just smaller ..
#6 | Posted by MURPHY at 2010-03-03 08:50 PM

Did they mention Pluto's atmosphere?

I like the idea of dwarf planet and not an escaped moon, however this distinction is discrediting the original discoverers of Pluto according to record - the Sumerian.

Zecharia Sitchen is an interesting, if hypnotically placid: Nibiru: Planet X Nibiru, 11 minutes and the very last seconds shows the Sumerian solar chart.

Our solar system has only eight "classical" planets - so has decided the astronomer's union, meeting in Prague. Pluto - still out there - must be laughing.

It is ironic - or, perhaps, symbolic - that the decision to deprive Pluto of its status as our sun's ninth planet coincides with the 30th anniversary of the publication of my seminal work The Twelfth Planet in Autumn l976. In it I suggested that the Sumerian Epic of Creation is not an allegorical myth but a sophisticated cosmogony scientifically describing how our solar system came to be; and it most definitely included Pluto.

Inscribed on seven clay tablets, the text described how the inner and outer planets appeared; how an invading celestial body ("Nibiru") collided with and broke up the planet Tiamat', creating "a new heaven;" and how Nibiru, captured in a great elliptical orbit, became the twelfth member of the Sun's Family - Sun, Moon, and ten planets including Earth, Nibiru and Pluto. These celestial gods' were matched by a pantheon of twelve deities on Earth.

The reports from Prague at first suggested that astronomers were bothered by Pluto's small size, now that a large icy body has been found farther out. But the final vote focused on what has troubled astronomers almost from Pluto's discovery in 1930. Its unusual inclined orbit that weaves in and out of Neptune's path.

This odd orbit has led some astronomers to speculate that Pluto began its life as a satellite, perhaps of Neptune. But what forceful event could have caused it to shift position and adopt a strange orbit? No one knew. But in The 12th Planet I wrote that the Sumerians of ancient Mesopotamia knew: Pluto ("GAGA" in the Epic of Creation) was indeed a moon of Saturn, pried off and sent into independent orbit by the invading Nibiru to play an important role in those celestial encounters.

In fact, the Sumerians were also aware that Gaga/Pluto ended up in the odd orbit next to Neptune. In the Sumerian pantheon, the planet we call Neptune was the celestial counterpart of the Aquarius god Enki. His chancellor' or visier' was nicknamed Ushmu, meaning "He of two faces" - and so was he depicted, with one face looking at Enki and a second face looking away from him (Fig. 1) - exactly the way Pluto looks at Neptune.

The Epic of Creation and other relevant Sumerian texts are supported by other pictorial depictions, such as the cylinder seal VA-243 in the Berlin Near Eastern Museum. (Fig.2). It shows the sun in the center (!), surrounded by eleven orbiting bodies that include the Moon, Pluto and the yet to be recognized "Planet X" -- Nibiru.

Sumerian knowledge of the origin and makeup of our solar system included a host of other aspects that modern science has been rediscovering in recent times. Here, suffice it to say: The Sumerians, counted Pluto as a member in good standing of our Sun's Family; let it stay so.

ZECHARIA SITCHIN

Lady Gaga is Sumerian? That does explain a lot.

This is interesting:

1. The first members of our Apsu Solar System were our Sun, Apsu, and planets Mercury and Tiamat (Ti. Amat). Tiamat "the water monster" was also called Gaia, meaning the cleaved one or Tiamat/Gaia.

2. Our solar system gradually expanded by the "birth" of three planetary pairs:

a) Venus and Mars --- placed between Mercury and Tiamat.

b) Jupiter and Saturn --- place
d beyond Tiamat.

c) Uranus and Neptune --- placed farther out.

3. An invading planet from outer space, Nibiru (Sumerian) or Marduk (Babylonian), was drawn to our solar system and attracted to the outer planet, Neptune.

4. Nibiru/Marduk moved in a retrograde (clockwise) orbit which was counter to the other planets and had four satellites or moons.

5. Nibiru/Marduk passed in its orbit between Neptune and the next inner planet, Uranus.

6. As Nibiru/Marduk passed near Neptune, gravitational and magnetic forces caused "Marduk's side to bulge out. This side was pulled away and became Neptune's new moon, Triton, which now has also a retrograde (clockwise) orbit.

7. Consequently, Marduk collided with Uranus, tilting Uranus on its axis and creating Uranus' four moons. In the process Marduk gained three more moons for a total of seven.

8. Marduk was pulled toward the extremely large planets of Saturn and Jupiter and changed her orbital pathway forever.

9. As Marduk passed Saturn, Saturn's moon, Gaga, was pulled away in the direction of Mars and Venus and caused Gaga to have a "strange" elliptical orbit. Gaga eventually became the planet, Pluto.

10. Marduk's orbit was further altered by the pull of Jupiter, placing Marduk on a collision course with Tiamat.

11. Tiamat was a very unstable planet encircled by eleven satellites (moons), the largest of these was Kingu, a very large satellite.

12. Marduk did not collide with Tiamat, but Marduk's seven satellites smashed into Tiamat and her eleven satellites headed by Tiamat's largest satellite, Kingu.

13. Tiamat was split into two halves. The half toward the sun split off and became Gaia or Planet Earth Shan, and Kingu, Tiamat's principal satellite became Earth Shan�s moon.

14. The other half of Tiamat was smashed into bits and pieces. Through magnetic and gravitational forces these pieces were formed into the Asteroid Belt.

15. The Asteroid Belt with its comets continued moving in a retrograde orbit, as did Marduk. The Asteroid Belt has remained in the approximate place in the solar system as the former planet, Tiamat.

16. The Asteroid Belt is also known as the "firmament" or belt of frozen waters. Below the "Firmament" or toward the Sun are located four planets--Mars, Earth, Venus, and Mercury. Above the "Firmament" are located six planets--Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, Pluto, and the twelfth planet, Marduk.

17. Nibiru/Marduk was forced into an extreme elliptical orbit of some 3600 years, and is known today as the twelfth planet in our Apsu Solar System. This twelfth planet, Nibiru/Marduk, in its retrograde solar orbit is again approaching Earth Shan.

Reference: Phoenix Journal #50, entitled Through Darkness into Light.

This 8000 year old Sumerian relief appears to also depict Anunnaki cartography - which appears in nearly everything they have left behind in both written history as well as artistic and religious renditions. They appear to have believed the Anunnaki were from aliens another planet who created humanity from existing hominids.

This map of the Sinai peninsula attempts to connect constellation Eridanus to an Anunnaki spaceport in the ancient city Eridu:

Zechariah Sitchin, in his book 'The Stairway to Heaven', on page 296 states: "Somewhere along the 'Line of Jerusalem', the central flight line that was anchored on Mount Ararat, the Spaceport itself had to be located. There too, the final beacon had to be located. "Mount Sinai, in the center of the desert."

It is here, we suggest, that the dividing line which we now call the Thirtieth Parallel (north) had come into play.

We know from Sumerian astronomical texts that the skies enveloping Earth, were so divided as to separate the northern 'way' (allotted to Enlil) from the southern 'way' (allotted to EA) with a wide central band considered the 'Way of Anu'. It is only natural to assume that a dividing line between the two rival brothers should also have been established AFTER the deluge when the settled Earth was divided into the Four Regions, and that, as in pre-Diluvial times, the Thirtieth Parallels (north and south) served as demarcation lines.

Was it mere coincidence, or a deliberate compromise between the two brothers and their feuding descendants, that in each of the three regions given to Mankind, the sacred city was located on the Thirtieth Parallel?

The Sumerian texts state that "When Kingship is lowered from Heaven" after the Deluge, "Kingship was in Eridu." Eridu was situation astride the Thirtieth Parallel as close to it as the marshy waters of the Persian Gulf permitted. While the administrative-secular center of Sumer shifted from time to time, Eridu remained a sacred city for all time.

The sanctity of the Thirtieth Parallel must be traced back to the Sacred Grid, when the divine measurers determined the location of the pyramids of Giza, also on the Thirtieth Parallel. Could the gods have given up this 'sanctity' or neutrality of the Thirtieth Parallel when it came to their most vital installation - The Spaceport - in their own Fourth Region, in the Sinai peninsula?

This crappily-introduced video does make an excellent depiction of homo sapiens as a newer species who's mitochondrial origins can only be traced to 143,000 years back. 11 minutes of more reasonable Sitchenism.

In Genesis, there is an old Hebrew word used for "man", but a specifically different word used for, "ADM".

In Genesis, there is an old Hebrew word used for "man", but a specifically different word used for, "ADM".
#46 | Posted by Corky at 2010-03-05 04:13 PM

How barely ironic - going through life with the name "worker", or "drone". Adam is the new Juan.

Supposedly the word for Adams' rib is "tu", Hebrew for either and animals rib or "the breath of life". I've never gotten over this purposeful, ugly mistranslation which is perpetuated. If true, Judaism appears repugnant of Christianity, and the clergy are masochistic drones.

The Hebrew alphabet is allegedly quite unique as well. However, it's phonetically parts of the Ogham alphabet and many of the characters have directly Greek parallels (or vice-versa). If either are correct, their traditions may actually be descended from the divine measurers? Perhaps they also included humans - which would explain the Shemsu Hor presence in Egypt.. Their relationship appears to be a good lead in connecting both Egypt and Ireland to possible Sumerian alien worship and technological presense.

www.ancientscripts.com

Hebrew: אָדָם‎, ʼĀḏām, "dust;

Eve (Hebrew: חַוָּה‎, Ḥawwā, "living one"

Wikipedia: Abacus

The Latin word came from abakos, the Greek genitive form of abax ("calculating-table"), from Hebrew ābāq (אבק), "dust".[3]

Sumerian words
sand/dust par-im, uk-um
ash (dust) ukum = dust
worker (mixtured worker) - lulu amelu

The tree of life bursts forth from our founding creation myths. Before Eden, Sumeria
accounts the felling of the Huluppu tree in founding the throne of state. It also exposes
and the trickery of the gods in denying immortality. Gilgamesh sought after the plant
of rejuvenation which Utnapishtim the Sumerian Noah had discovered in the ﬂood,
only to be tricked by the serpent who sheds its skin and gained the powers of regenera-
tion by stealing the leaves. Adapa, the Sumerian Adam is similarly tricked by the gods
who claim the waters of life are those of death. In the Eden the tree stood in the centre
of the garden and likewise conferred immortal life. When Eve ate the fruit of knowl-
edge, God cursed the ground and the tree of life was withdrawn, in a similar trick lest
humankind gain both knowledge and immortality. The tree of life has become "hidden
since the foundation of the world" prophesied to return in the apocalyptic 'unveiling'.

"Adam" - "Adamu" ... " - El' - Ya' - Yah-veh':

"Genesis 1:26: Let us make man in our image." ... Till not the only attestation of Adam,' man, Adam' outside the Bible appeared in Old Akkadian texts from the period of Sargon the Great (circa 2350 B.C.) In the form of the personal names Adamu,' Adamu,' and Adamu.' Now from Ebla comes the personal name Adamu,' one of the 14 governors of the provinces under King Igris-Halam ... in Ugaritic one of the titles of El, the head of the pantheon is il ab adm, El, the father of mankind.' ... (274)

Adams rib is actually "ti" not "tu", my mistake. Here's some compiled assertions from translations:

Did the Book of Genesis come from Sumerian Myth?

In Sumerian myth the senior gods spent their time in leisure, while the junior gods laboured at digging the channels of the rivers and other tasks. Eventually the junior gods rebelled and threatened to overturn the heavenly order. The senior god Enki therefore fashioned the first men from clay, mixed with spittle and the blood of a slain god, so that men could work and the gods could rest. Originally Enki made seven men and seven women, but the numbers of mankind soon multiplied.

In another Sumerian myth the goddess Ninhursag created a beautiful garden full of lush vegetation and fruit trees, called Edinu, in Dilmun, the Sumerian earthly Paradise, a place which the Sumerians believed to exist to the east of their own land, beyond the sea. Ninhursag charged Enki, her lover, with controlling the wild animals and tending the garden, but Enki became curious about the garden and his assistant, Adapa, selected seven plants and offered them to Enki, who ate them. (In other versions of the story he seduced in turn seven generations of the offspring of his divine marriage with Ninhursag). This enraged Ninhursag, and she caused Enki to fall ill. Enki felt pain in his rib, which is a pun in Sumerian, as the word "ti" means both "rib" and "life. The other gods persuaded Ninhursag to relent. Ninhursag then created a new goddess named Ninti, (a name made up of "Nin", or "lady", plus "ti", and which can be translated as both Lady of Living and Lady of the Rib), to cure Enki. Ninhursag is known as mother of all living creatures, and thus holds the same position as Eve. The story has a clear parallel with Eve's creation from Adam's rib, but given that the pun with rib is present only in Sumerian, linguistic criticism[7] places the Sumerian account as the more ancient.

A magical cloning "vagina" made these "cures". Perhaps a form of synthesis in her lab? Maybe she grew them in womb-like bags? Botanical vagina.. not sure I prefer the dentada imagery.. ick.

Either way, we've got some exceptionally advanced science fiction from the allegedly first human civilization.

Vaginal salad forks go to the left or right of the penis ladle?

this thread finally got interesting.....

Watching The Pluto Files now.

Dr. Tyson is such a cornball.

#51

Though there are many more differences between the Sumerian and Hebrew accounts than there are similarities ( the Sumerian account has the God's destroying the earth because the humans made too much noise, lol ), they may describe the same events that proceeded both accounts.