Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs
Tuesday, February 23, 2010

Religious thinking has been tied to various brain regions before, but a new study moves things a big step forward. By measuring indicators of religiosity in brain-cancer patients before and after surgery to remove their tumors, a team of researchers in Italy has found that damage to a specific region of the brain --the posterior parietal cortex -- can increase a person's feelings of "self-transcendence," or the feeling of being connected to others and to the universe.

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So, in your professional opinion, when a zombie munches on a fertile brain he is both making himself more atheist and his victim more religious?

I always wondered why Xtians seemed brainless.

region of the brain (the posterior parietal cortex) can increase a person's feelings of "self-transcendence," or the feeling of being connected to others and to the universe.

This time your "scientific research" thread of outspoken atheism "play on words" game against "religiosity" backfires since the story more implies a link by your kinsmen researchers between new age occultism beliefs with "brain damage" than anything else.

...While the popular notion of a search for the "God spot" is a bit silly particular "spots"...

"God spot"? Well, since the "G Spot" when found can make most women feel as though they went straight to Heaven, I guess the name fits.

My moms in trouble........

Ever think people who survive brain cancer might be inclined to thank God anyway?

...since the story more implies a link by your kinsmen researchers between new age occultism beliefs with "brain damage" than anything else.

One made-up religion is as good as another....

This is not a global warming thread, shredder.

"Ever suspected that religious people have a part of their brain missing?"

Just what we need, unbiased scientific articles.

Not that most fundies, theist or atheist, don't invite that kind of ridicule, but then, most truly scientific endeavors don't start out with that kind of bias.

#8 FF

What the researchers found was that people who came in with tumors in the posterior parietal cortex scored higher on self transcendence before surgery than other patients, who came in with tumors in the frontal cortex. After the tumor removal, the patients who'd had tumors in the posterior parietal cortex scored even higher on self-transcendence. Patients who'd had tumors in the frontal cortex showed no change on that trait after the surgery.

Ever think people who survive brain cancer might be inclined to thank God anyway?

#6 | Posted by Diablo at

In other words you didnt read the article, thanks for playing.

ZombieHunter - Excellent article, if extremely brief. This reminds me of people with damaged mirror neurons losing empathy. Modern medical practice is definitely taking a more "holistic" conceptualization of the mind functionality.

That's funny.

I hear about people taking drugs and claiming to be more "spiritual".

Does that mean drug users are operating on less brains?

Religion and politics are symptomatic of a common desire to escape reality.

"Does that mean drug users are operating on less brains?"

No actually that would imply that certain drugs--capable of producing "self-transcendence" or "oceanic boundlessness"--dissolve cognitive filters that ordinarily reduce sensory experience to a level that doesn't overwhelm.

That's funny.

I hear about people taking drugs and claiming to be more "spiritual".

Does that mean drug users are operating on less brains?

#13 | Posted by BillJohnson

What's funny, Bill, is that you don't get the implications. If drugs can produce "spiritual" experiences there's not much need of a divine entity to explain so-called "religious" experiences.

"If drugs can explain spiritual experiences...."

When I hear things like this, I understand the prohibtion on false idols.

It's the cynics who try to see God in absolutely everything. I don't know why you bother critiquing the odd housewife seeing the Virgin Mary on a soda cracker.

"To explain so-called religous experiences...."

No one I know, or have seen, goes to church to trip. The faith of some minority may be based on some numinous experience, I'm sure. The over-whelming majority of us come to it from an entirely different route.

The ignorance of the shallow cynic is explained by their shallow cynicism. I'd like to follow one or two of you around to see how you really spend your days. I think it might be instructive.

You live a few decades and you talk with, and get to know, legions of persons who have used this drug, that drug, combinations of drugs, in whatever amounts....

Most of them, the over-whelming majority, if they sober up and very often even when they don't, just say the experience in it's totality was a waste of life.

No spirituality, no spiritual feelings, no God. A lot of little ZOMBIHUNTERS waiting for the curve to overtake them and some person younger even than they are to call them old and stupid.

By the way, the author's definition of "spirituality" is arbitrary and frankly, uncommon. The author is smart enough to know that. The author appears not to care.

Null,

As a Christian, I believe some people indeed have "spirtual" experiences that are genuine.

However, I also believe that a sizable number of people believe they are "spiritual", but are being deluded.

Naturally, atheists would see all of the above as deluded.

Personally, I am convinced I have had authentic experiences with a very real God.

Of course, all people believe they are correct, don't they?

I am aware I could be getting fooled, or I could be a fool.

My point is that these people who are having spiritual experiences referenced in this article could simply be having delusions.

The people I have known in my life who I am the most convinced are the real deal have never been air heads.

They are typically intelligent men and women with a faith that God is real.

And I have known people who claim to be "spiritual" who are simply potheads who live in their own world and make up their own beliefs as they go along.

These are two distinct extremes and represent "spiritual" people who are real and who are fake.

At times I suspect the fakes outnumber the real ones.

#20 - unfortunately, narrow is the gate, Bill...

Personally, I am convinced I have had authentic experiences with a very real God.

I'm sure you're convinced.

"I'm sure you're convinced....."

Yep. All inside his head. And it's all inside of yours. You're going to have to agree with this, its your worldview.

Okay, let's line em up and start operating:

Zombie
Corky
nullified
Danni
Ringmaster
Buffalo B
Jackass
Zat
Zed
Etal

Don't let that scalpel slip-----make sure it's the parietal lobe and not temporal or frontal lobes--wouldn't want to screw with their emotions or irrational thought processes.

I wonder if this is the only website in the world where you can be told you're evil for being pro-God and anti-drugs?

Alternatively, I wonder if NULLIFIDIAN isn't the just the result of some undigested mustard seed, er, stray stimulation of some neural structure.

The funny thing is, that's completely correct.

Personally, I am convinced I have had authentic experiences with a very real God.

woah, you need to get treatment for your schizophrenia.

Seriously.

I wonder if this is the only website in the world where you can be told you're evil for being pro-God and anti-drugs?

Alternatively, I wonder if NULLIFIDIAN isn't the just the result of some undigested mustard seed, er, stray stimulation of some neural structure.

The funny thing is, that's completely correct.

#25 | Posted by Zed

I apologize, Zed, your above post is very cogent and rational---I've officialy taken you off the surgical list---you'll not be getting your pre-op.

If drugs can produce "spiritual" experiences there's not much need of a divine entity to explain so-called "religious" experiences

If one could artifically reproduced the sensation of a full stomach by stimulating a specific region of the brain does it follow then that every experience that I have ever had of having a full stomach had no basis in reality?

Does that mean drug users are operating on less brains?

The cocaine cowboy was, that's for sure.

You don't need some guy in the sky, chemicals in your brain or surgery to feel transcendence once in a while. Everybody has moments when all is right with the world.

Zed. While sitting in church I have had disntinctly transendent experiences. Also while puffing on a joint I have had a similar expereince watching a sunset. Same God.

Obviously your prewired prejudices have permanently reduced you ability to experience either

You don't need some guy in the sky, chemicals in your brain or surgery to feel transcendence once in a while. Everybody has moments when all is right with the world.

#29 | Posted by northguy3

The greatest high in the world is not being on mind altering drugs which is just a form of escape--I love life with its' challenges and can't conceive of screwing it up with escape hatches.

"Same God...."

Nah. You just make things up. God doesn't want you to lie, and He wnats you sober.

Yep. All inside his head. And it's all inside of yours. You're going to have to agree with this, its your worldview.

#23 | Posted by Zed

Yep and your religious experience that turned you into a believer was also inside your head.

I've never heard any ganja user use the word transcendent before. They have many words to describe what happens to them, all distinctly closer to the dirt.

The people I know don't go to church for transcendence. I'm sure they wouldn't kick it out of bed if it happened. However, they're mostly there to be saved, and to treat the guy next to them a little bit better.

I'm sure all that can be related to neural structures in reductionistic Hell.

Nah. You just make things up. God doesn't want you to lie, and He wnats you sober.

#32 | Posted by Zed

Yep, and your body is a temple and a beautiful work of art (and then again, if I saw it I might have to shutter and take that statement back) and I'm sure God doesn't want you screwing it up by physically damaging it.

God doesn't want you to lie, and He wnats you sober.

#32 | Posted by Zed

You can't prove God exists, much less claim to know what "he" wants.

"Also inside you head...."

That's the atraction of the argument for some, NULLIFIDIAN. If it's all inside your head then it's all equally valid, or equally worthless. Some people flash back and forth, and that's why we have hypocrites.

"You can't prove God exists...."

We've been there and done this: You can't prove you exist. I double dog dare you to try once again.

Yep. All inside his head. And it's all inside of yours. You're going to have to agree with this, its your worldview.

#23 | Posted by Zed

Yep and your religious experience that turned you into a believer was also inside your head.

#33 | Posted by nullifidian

Nully, I'm sure Zed would tell you that it's a heart issue and not a head issue---I believe it's called faith and is not based on an intellectual experience/process.

OK---Waiting for the first proof....

You can't prove God exists...."

We've been there and done this: You can't prove you exist. I double dog dare you to try once again.

#38 | Posted by Zed

I'll "triple dog dare you" (Christmas Story).

Let's see: you could argue that someone is posting replies to my posts, and that is you---But from MATSOP'S point of view it could just be me playing both e-roles.

I'm sure God doesn't want you screwing it up by physically damaging it.

#35 | Posted by matsop

I'm sure you don't have idea of what "God" wants. God provided cannabis and magic mushrooms and peyote. And I say, praise Jeebus!

You could show up at my door with a pizza. I could ask for ID. Then I could ask you if it was fake. And then.....

I know---We could design an experiment---Any ideas how to experimentally determine that you are, uh, you?

You could swear on a stack of Bibles---Now, that would be funny.

You already think I'm half delusional. Why couldn't that half include you? It's a given I'd never know.

Zed you are lost in protocol and don't see the core. It is a wonderful feeling to sit in a church (denomination is not important) and on a Sunday morning feel Gods presence wash over you

Likewise in my backyard watching the sunset over my pool and jacuzzi while I have a toke of Gods most advanced plant.

You just keep workibg that Christian protocol-no different to me than a son of Islam kissing the dirt as he frantically prays for mercy.

How sad.

I know, I know----You do and feel things, so you exist---That is, you say you do and feel things---Well, never mind.....

I guess I COULD watch you do things, and have FAITH it's not an hallucination of some sort---

It is often a wonderful feeling to sit in church. I'm just questioning it's anything like taking a toke. Seriously questioning it. Maybe it would help if you swore on a stack of Bibles---NULLIFIDIAN might appreciate that.

It is a wonderful world. Wonderful universe too. To nulli and the rest of you. Can't you feel a God in that???

Sorry to insult your drug of choice. Next time I'll say bad things about your wife. You may not react as badly.

I swear on it. THC is a great feature of this world God gave us. Big stack o Bibles.

Night night. 14 hour day spent trying to do my part to rebuild the free market base for all these taxes coming due

Damn I wish I had a fatty.

It is a wonderful world. Wonderful universe too.

#52 | Posted by boojiboy

Can't disagree with that statement---see God in it all the time and marvel what a great creation it is.


congrats to the purveyor of this one. since atheists have such a strong tendency to liberalism, any fake scientific study that claims the desired globalist propaganda is sure to be promoted to FP by the one-track lapdog, rcade.

By the way you insult my wife and karma will slay you. Trust me Zeddy. No god of yours would save your ass.

"I swear on it...."

That's interesting. My response would be it demeans spirituality to confound it with getting a buzz. If that's all there is to it, then peppermint shnapps should do just as well to let God wash all over you.

"You insult my wife...."

You'd have to prove your wife exists first. Ask NULLIFIDIAN how that's done.

You insult my wife...."

You'd have to prove your wife exists first. Ask NULLIFIDIAN how that's done.

#59 | Posted by Zed

Zed, if Boojboy doesn't exist, how can his wife exist---do I have to ask Nullifidian for the answer?

"You'd have to prove your wife exists first. Ask NULLIFIDIAN how that's done."

I don't have to prove anything, Zed. I'm convinced to a sufficient extent that I exist. I'm not all that worried that I might not actually exist.

"It is often a wonderful feeling to sit in church. "

Personally I find it more inspiring to sit in one of those high-ceiling classic old libraries which are monuments to learning, not superstition.

"If that's all there is to it, then peppermint shnapps should do just as well to let God wash all over you.

#58 | Posted by Zed"

Or wine! Oh, wait....

#62 - Excellent! One of my best highs was when I was age 20, many year ago, and went to the Library of Congress one day and the staff asked me what I would like to look up and sat me down to use the computer (? 1974? microfiche?) and I said I would like to see a bibliography of Dr. Boorstin, who was the Librarian of Congress at that time, and they were impressed. It felt so great to bask in the immensity of resources and knowledge contained in that place. Another time in Boston I went into a library at Harvard and there in this cool horizontal display case was John Keats' Ode on a Grecian Urn, his original manuscript. It was hard to tear myself away.

Really, I can't respect any self styled religious type people who have not read John Milton (with footnotes).

Alexander Pope had the best advice of all -

Know then thyself, presume not God to scan
The proper study of Mankind is Man.

But, my whole focus is not an appeal to the classics, it is on personal experience, and to have the most direct experience it must be on the basis of raw cognition not influenced by a book, any book.

BTW, this article reminds me of trepanation.

What a quaintly Cartesian conversation.

what if we really ARE all connected and the same, and the part of the brain that goes missing, is actually the part that hides us from the truth to protect our ego bound to this reality.

religion is the desire to escape reality.

politics is about control of the state.

I always thought that staunch Libertarians were, as a group taken as a whole, the most condescending and smug group in existance when it came to being self-assured in their beliefs.

They don't hold a candle to staunch atheists when it comes to this.

"asking them to answer "yes" or "no" to statements such as: "I often feel so connected to the people around me that I feel like there is no separation"; "I feel so connected to nature that everything feels like one single organism;" and "I got lost in the moment and detached from time.""

hmmm....me felt pretty much like that after imbibing a very large dose of Ayahuasca in South America last year. seemed pretty f'ing real at the time.

I'm just saying...

But God chose the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to confound the strong. He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised thingsand the things that are notto nullify the things that are

1 Cor 27-28

I always wondered why Xtians seemed brainless.

#2 | Posted by dxlingr

could not agree more.

"I'm (NULLIFIDIAN) convinced to a sufficient extent I exist...."

God would say pretty much the same thing about Himself if you asked Him. What's the point of talking with you? You walk both sides of the fence much too well.

"I'm not at all worried I might not actually exist...."

Eventually they will create virtual entities that seem to worry, or also seem not to. That would make them you.

God would say pretty much the same thing about Himself if you asked Him.

#72 | Posted by Zed

Funny, there's millions of people asking God all kinds of things at any second, I'm pretty sure none of them have ever had God answer back.

Here's a test for you, post your address here and ask Nulli and god to come over your house and stop by for tea, who do you think will actually show up?

By this logic, you could also say "removal of brain tissue increases liberalism"

"If drugs can explain spiritual experiences...."

When I hear things like this, I understand the prohibtion on false idols.

Zed, you have to be able to prove that an idol is "false" before you start whining about people finding god in a bag of shrooms. All you have demonstrated to date is a mindless devotion to your myth of choice. If I were you, I would worry about establishing my own legitimacy before I start questioning someone else's.

By this logic, you could also say "removal of brain tissue increases liberalism"

Except you would not have evidence to back up that statement. Nice try.

"Alternatively, I wonder if NULLIFIDIAN isn't the just the result of some undigested mustard seed, er, stray stimulation of some neural structure.

The funny thing is, that's completely correct."

You think that would make a difference to me, Zed? You and I could be robots, but if we didn't know it, who cares?

You're obsession with drugs is understandable. If religious experiences can be induced by drugs it throws doubt on the "divine nature" of religious experiences. I bet Moses ate some shrooms before he saw the burning bush.

the most condescending and smug group in existance when it came to being self-assured in their beliefs.

They don't hold a candle to staunch atheists when it comes to this.

On the one hand, thanks for noticing. On the other hand, I find it hard to believe you could read Zed and come to this conclusion without some underlying bias present.

What could possibly be more "smug" and "condescending" than the basic tenet of christianity which says you and I were filthy, rotten, hell-bound, molded clay particulates before our umbilical cords were even cut? When Grendel claims we atheists are missing basic instincts if we hold to informed disbelief in the lack of any evidence to the contrary, do you see that as condescending? What-The-Fuck could possibly be more condescending and smug than the claim that after my best efforts at a moral life I will spend a gazillion years being burned and tortured for the entertainment of the heavenly because they have been granted some secret denied to me?

Or how about the laughable claim that without the bible humans would have no inhibition whatsoever to lie, steal, or murder? Who is standing on shaky ground, the person making that claim (who presumably would start lying, stealing, and killing in the absence of scripture) or the person who says they knew those things were wrong without be commanded by god?

I try, but I can't touch that level of misanthropy or smugness.

I try, but I can't touch that level of misanthropy or smugness.

#79 | Posted by BluSky at 2010-02-24 10:45 AM | Reply | Flag:

Claiming man is the end all be all of the universe is way above the level you are discussing. Claiming man's accomplishments rival any of those on earth - again way above the level you are discussing.

The arrogance is strong in this one. Forget religion for a moment Blu - evidence of a "supreme" being exists in front of your face everyday. Just open your eyes and your mind - as libs often say after a toke.

Claiming man is the end all be all of the universe

I have never made any such claim. That is the claim of the faithful who believe Earth and the entire universe was created by god for man, that god takes the time and effort to concern himself with who wins a boxing match or gets early parole, and that all the life and beauty on this planet is ours to abuse as we wish.

As far as I know, the universe doesn't care about man or even know we are here. We are just a primate on a rather ordinary planet in a rather ordinary system on the edge of an ordinary galaxy. I see more arrogance in assuming you are somehow important in the presence of a seemingly endless universe, and that an exception can be made --just for you-- upon your death.

The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshipped anything but himself.
Sir Richard Francis Burton
British explorer & orientalist (1821 - 1890)

In Christianity neither morality nor religion come into contact with reality at any point.
Friedrich Nietzsche, The Antichrist, section 16
German philosopher (1844 - 1900)

This is my simple religion. There is no need for temples; no need for complicated philosophy. Our own brain, our own heart is our temple; the philosophy is kindness.
Dalai Lama

If it turns out that there is a God, I don't think that he's evil. But the worst that you can say about him is that basically he's an underachiever.
Woody Allen
US movie actor, comedian, & director (1935 - )

0=1, the solid math of atheists who believe something came from nothing.

When Grendel claims we atheists are missing basic instincts if we hold to informed disbelief in the lack of any evidence to the contrary, do you see that as condescending?

See my response to this on the other thread. You do not lack the instinct; you simply choose to rationalize it away.

What-The-Fuck could possibly be more condescending and smug than the claim that after my best efforts at a moral life I will spend a gazillion years being burned and tortured for the entertainment of the heavenly because they have been granted some secret denied to me?

You are, of course, referring to damnation. Metaphors of fire aside, damnation is merely the absence of God--or an absence of the reunion with the divine. What could be more respectful of your choices and beliefs than to respect them and grant them in the afterlife?

You believe there is no God-- nothing to be reunited with. You are not reunited with him in the afterlife. Your belief becomes your truth. You get what you expect.

Your eternal existence is the summation of your personal choices. This is not condescending to your beliefs but simple respect.


-As far as I know, the universe doesn't care about man or even know we are here.

Biocentrism embraces not God, but scientifically deduces that our reality is created by/for us..... one of the few ways to explain our apparently unique existence in a physical reality that, were it minutely different, would not sustain our lives.

www.msnbc.msn.com

Or how about the laughable claim that without the bible humans would have no inhibition whatsoever to lie, steal, or murder? Who is standing on shaky ground, the person making that claim (who presumably would start lying, stealing, and killing in the absence of scripture) or the person who says they knew those things were wrong without be commanded by god?

Who is claiming that here?

I posted on another thread about the relation between natural law, human law and divine law. It is there if you want to look.

The belief of many Christians is that natural law--the natural instinct to shun murder, theft, etc.-- is part of human design instilled in us by God.

Divine law as obtained through scripture can be many things; one is the affirmation of natural law.

Divine Law completes natural law.

Been fun, check in later.

Cheers

"Claiming man is the end all be all of the universe is way above the level you are discussing.
#80 | Posted by ELCIDCE90"

"I have never made any such claim.
#81 | Posted by BluSky"

Hey, leave Elcid alone. Even the retarded ones are God's creatures.

#64 | Posted by grumpy_too

One of the last places I would want to inhabit is a library---the world is a much more appropriate teacher.

Biocentrism sounds suspicously like the basis of scientology.

0=1, the solid math of atheists who believe something came from nothing.

Our best efforts in cosmology suggest everything in the universe is rapidly moving away, ever expanding into a dark abyss. The things we see in the night sky will soon (soon in relation to the infinite time scale of the universe) disappear from view even with the most powerful of telescopes. In other words: there is a whole lotta nothingness quickly approaching, 1=0.

Your own "solid math" quickly turns very flimsy if you are asked to explain where god came from if something can't come from nothing.

You are, of course, referring to damnation. Metaphors of fire aside, damnation is merely the absence of God--or an absence of the reunion with the divine. What could be more respectful of your choices and beliefs than to respect them and grant them in the afterlife?

#84 | Posted by Grendel

I can dig it.

where god came from if something can't come from nothing.

#90 | Posted by BluSky

And that's what makes him God---man's flimsy brain can't begin to understand that concept and that's why we are just man running around on this earth thinking we are in some way relevant and important.

Much of mainstream psychology and psychiatry now recognize what philosophers both religious and pagan have known and written about over the millenia, that the basic human drive is neither sex nor death, but a drive to reclaim a once held connection with their source.

www.youtube.com

Much of mainstream psychology and psychiatry now recognize what philosophers both religious and pagan have known and written about over the millenia, that the basic human drive is neither sex nor death, but a drive to reclaim a once held connection with their source.

www.youtube.com

#93 | Posted by Corky

Interesting.

#33 Nullifidian> Yep and your religious experience that turned you into a believer was also inside your head.

So there is no objective proof for God, at all? What about near-death experiences where the person involved sees and hears things that could not have been sensed where their body was at? What about "miraculous" cures that medical science cannot explain?

I know a man who claims to be cured of cancer. His doctor will not say that, of course, but did admit that within a 2-3 day period (between an MRI done to locate the tumor and another test the night before scheduled surgery) the patients' cancer completely disappeared. The doctor repeated the MRI and other tests before finally releasing the patient. Almost 10 years later, he is still alive and cancer free.

If it was all in his head, that is an amazing trick and one I'd certainly like to know (and patent).

man's flimsy brain can't begin to understand

Ah, the ole unretortable retort: "you can't understand so just have faith". Whatever. Maybe the paths I take in search of understanding will reveal some secrets, maybe it won't. It doesn't change the fact that diablo is only turning the argument on himself when he claims something can't come from nothing.

man running around on this earth thinking we are in some way relevant and important.

Again, I have no such illusion.

#90 Blusky> Your own "solid math" quickly turns very flimsy if you are asked to explain where god came from if something can't come from nothing.

The Bible says that God has always existed (eternity past) and always will (eternity future). I have a hard time understanding it, mainly because everything I can see in the physical world is at odds with the concept of eternality: water, mountains, plants, sun, planets, galaxies, black holes, etc.

#79 Blusky> ...could possibly be more condescending and smug than the claim that after my best efforts at a moral life I will spend a gazillion years being burned and tortured for the entertainment of the heavenly because they have been granted some secret denied to me?

The Bible teaches that ALL people have been given a chance to 'come to God' (ie salvation) on his terms. That opportunity is never based on personal worthiness, motive, inherent goodness, or bad things one has done. In that sense, it has never been 'denied' to anyone. I have never heard of eternal torment having some kind of entertainment value, that is a new one to me.

#74 TFDNIHILIST> Funny, there's millions of people asking God all kinds of things at any second, I'm pretty sure none of them have ever had God answer back.

So what happens if God does answer an individual's prayer? Say it happens repeatedly. Should that person simply deny it, based on your own beliefs, or decide there may be something to this 'God' stuff after all?

#99 - and many times His answer to our prayer is an emphatic NO. Remember, "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." Romans 8:28

Are what we're asking for according to HIS purpose or for our own selfish reasons?

What about "miraculous" cures that medical science cannot explain?

^^This is the most disgusting argument a theist can present. God gets credit for the rare "cure" but has no responsibility for crib death, or child leukemia, or sickle cell. What "selfish reason" does an infant have that god can so eaisly dismiss. When does an aborted fetus express "free will"? What "plan" could be made that calls for a 2 year old's brain to rot away? What kind of monster would devise such a plan?

If someone tells me in person they witnessed a "miracle" (or an answered prayer) I'm obliged to accept it. If they tell me they heard about someone who witnessed a miracle, well, that's not quiet the same is it? I apply a simple equation to such a circumstance: what is the likelihood that the natural order was momentarily suspended --in your favor-- vs the likelihood that someone is telling a lie. Almost every time the former seems far less likely.

#101 Blusky> If someone tells me in person they witnessed a "miracle" (or an answered prayer) I'm obliged to accept it. If they tell me they heard about someone who witnessed a miracle, well, that's not quiet the same is it?

Fair enough, I normally discount about 99% of stuff I read here in DR. However, the miracle I was talking about was a man I've known for over 20 years. I know exactly where he lives and I (along with many other friends) visited him several times during his last hospital stay (roughly 11 years ago). I've known a few others in somewhat less spectacular 'answered prayer' situations.

As far as your comments about God's responsibility for the horrendous ills we see all around us, the Bible teaches that man brought sin into the world and God told man that severe, long-lasting consequences would be the result of that. I don't know if you've ever read "When Bad Things Happen To Good People" (by Rabbi Kushner), but it does a decent job of trying to answer such questions.

#100 Nanc> and many times His answer to our prayer is an emphatic NO

Thanks for pointing out something that I forgot to mention. As I often tell people, "NO" is an answer too, just unlikely to be what we want to hear.

So what happens if God does answer an individual's prayer? Say it happens repeatedly. Should that person simply deny it, based on your own beliefs, or decide there may be something to this 'God' stuff after all?

#99 | Posted by AKat

Well, there would need to be some sort of proof that there was an answer from God. Just because something good happens does not mean it was an answered prayer.

What about when good things happen to Atheistic bad people? Is that also the hand of God?

...evidence of a "supreme" being exists in front of your face everyday.

Zed, Pretend for one second that we are all poor lost souls that you actually care about "saving".

Please point out ANY one thing that is evidence that a "supreme being" exists that is in front of my face every day.

Myself and about a billion other souls would love to be convinced.

Cause if you can do that we can end all the bickering and fighting right now because we can all be assured that the "guy in the sky" is there and looking out for us.

I do not deny that there may be a higher power than humans in this Universe...it would be plainly foolish to suggest otherwise. But, as of yet during my brief time on this Planet and in this Universe I have yet to witness any EVIDENCE of a Supreme Being.

Thank you

-D

the Bible teaches that man brought sin into the world and God told man that severe, long-lasting consequences would be the result of that. I don't know if you've ever read "When Bad Things Happen To Good People" (by Rabbi Kushner), but it does a decent job of trying to answer such questions.

Setting aside your circular logic for a moment;
the sins of the father are placed upon the son, not "to the third and fourth generation" as prescribed in the pentateuch but to the 1000th and 10,000th generation also? I can't think of a more immoral action than that!

The rabbi may attempt a "decent" explanation for the torture of little children, but how would he explain, biblically, When Good Things Happen to Bad People?

If so, then shouldn't we see much spiritual behavior exhibited in animals?

RE: #86 (in case you didn't see my post on the other thread)

Grendel ...let me Fix this for you.

Eternal law (physical scientific laws discoverable by understanding how the Universe works.)

Natural Law (common sense.)

Human Law (common sense for the dummies that has to be written down and with consequences)

Divine Law (Shit made up by "Priests" to control the masses and to consolidate power for rich and powerful)

The Ten Commandments are a mixture of bullshit and common sense.

Neither originate from a God as God is something Man has made up to explain away the things he does not understand. The means by which humans have come to know them differs due to cultural and environmental factors.

shouldn't we see much spiritual behavior exhibited in animals?

#108 | Posted by Sabbatai

Wouldn't you have to ask them...what does "spiritual behavior" look like? Does it look like they are drunk or stoned? I have seen that. Elephant enjoy getting ripped.

Also Elephants appear to exhibit "spiritual behavior" when they are about to die or when an relative close to them dies.

Elephant enjoy getting ripped.

Monkeys too.

Male lions will eat rhino dung (lots of testosterone) when getting geared-up for a fight. They're "juicing" just like Barry Bonds.

My basset hound has an unlimited appetite for fan leaves and stalks, she likes harvest time almost as much as I do.

Hippos will guard their dead for weeks, some will even protect other species from predators.

This one is seemingly trying to resuscitate an impala it saved from a croc.

Elephant enjoy getting ripped.

Monkeys too.

Intoxicated Animals...

www.milkandcookies.com

Grendel ...let me Fix this for you. . .

Danforth,

I stated my post as an article of faith and prefaced it with "The belief is." In your post you state your opinion. Everyone is entitled to one. I respect that.

I am curious, however, in regard to one of your points about divine law:

(Shit made up by "Priests" to control the masses and to consolidate power for rich and powerful)

Within Christianity, Christ is essentially the first priest and the source of what Christians know about divine law. Can you tell me then, as evidenced by the gospels, how Christ was making up "shit" in an attempt to control the masses in order to consolidate power for the rich and powerful?

If that was the case Pilate, Herod and the Sanhedrin were certainly unappreciative.


Elephants not only like to get pissed every now and then by eating fermenting fruit; they also drink themselves stupid if their mate dies, clearly drowning their sorrows. Vervet monkeys love stealing people's drinks and getting drunk just for the fun of it. Lemurs have evolved to get high off the millipede juice they spray over themselves to repel bugs. Even the wallabies are at it! In fact, animals getting high is such a prevalent phenomenon that there's an entire episode of Weird Nature dedicated to it Peculiar Potions. All this evidence points to getting high as another kind of instinct, alongside eating, sleeping and mating. That doesn't mean we all want to get high 100% of the time and will kill each other for the privilege, it just means that right across the animal kingdom, this penchant for getting high (or a tendency to self-medicate) obviously had its advantages. Anxiety, restlessness, depression, pain, lack of appetite all of these can be managed to some extent by one drug or another, and if trying to manage those things means you live longer and are more likely to pass on your genes, it's no wonder this instinct is so ingrained. You can read more about the "Intoxication Instinct" here.

www.synchronium.net

Within Christianity, Christ is essentially the first priest and the source of what Christians know about divine law. Can you tell me then, as evidenced by the gospels, how Christ was making up "shit" in an attempt to control the masses in order to consolidate power for the rich and powerful?

Grendel

hmmmm perhaps we see Christ in completely different lights. I see Jesus as a teacher. You probably see him as divine being and the Son of God. I see him as just a very enlightened Human or possibly a conglomeration of humans who had some inner knowledge and insight to the nature of Man that he/they were able to share with the rest of humanity. Seems to me that according to The Gospels Jesus was more at odds with Priest and did not consider Himself one of them.

Are not Priest considered to be go betweens between God and Man? (As if Men needed a middleman) If Jesus was the Son of God then he could not be a true Priest as he was not representing God he WAS God.

If there is a God then each of us is as close to God as another and in actuality needs no go between or middleman or "Priests". We do, however, sometimes need teachers or guides to help us with our spiritual journeys of understanding. This need not be a Priest who somehow holds the keys of understanding...it could be a book. And by that definition anyone can be a Priest if they reach a certain level of enlightenment that they then can share with others. The job of "Priest" should really be a temp position and rotated frequently to prevent corruption.

Again "Priests" today are nothing but a way for the powerful to maintain a control of the masses through FEAR (like the FEAR of going to some place called Hell after you die). The Pope and the Bishops of the Catholic Church are good examples of how the the concept of Priest has been thoroughly corrupted by Power.

The concept of a Priest goes way back to before Jesus to primitive times when the Shaman of the tribe would be adviser to the Tribal leader. So in no way was Jesus the "First Priest". What a great job for the Priest except for those years when the rains stopped and the crops failed and the tribe went hungry. But, a clever "Priest" or Shaman could always find some sinful behavior of someone to blame it on thereby shifting any blame for his lack of prophetic skills to some poor slob who pissed him off.

-as always thought provoking to speak with you Grendel!

-D

Grendel... Priest should be Priest(s) where appropriate and I am not Danforth!

Thx

PROSPERO.

You do look, my son, in a mov'd sort,
As if you were dismay'd: be cheerful, sir:
Our revels now are ended. These our actors,
As I foretold you, were all spirits and
Are melted into air, into thin air:
And, like the baseless fabric of this vision,
The cloud-capp'd towers, the gorgeous palaces,
The solemn temples, the great globe itself,
Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve
And, like this insubstantial pageant faded,
Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff
As dreams are made on, and our little life
Is rounded with a sleep.

- The Tempest

Donner,

You see Jesus as a teacher. This is not an uncommon position for many who wish to embrace some of the teachings of Jesus and certainly he was this--a rabbi. C.S. Lewis would argue that there is no middle ground with Jesus. You either take him a the Son of God, which is his claim or you take him as a mad man. If you are interested in that argument, you can google Lewis.

When I said "first" priest, I did not mean that in relation to all of history, merely the first priest of Christianity--the model for all Catholic, Anglican or Eastern Orthodox priests. Most protestant denominations eliminated the ritual of sacrifice (the Eucharist) and thus they do not have priests, but ministers.

Is is the belief of many that men and women do need a middle-person between the divine and the human. Certain people are called to that role and become the shamans or the priests. He or she is not merely a teacher, but a nexus between human and the divine not through teaching but through action. The fact that some people are more innately spiritual, perhaps due to brain structures, suggests that some people are more fitted to the role. Given then that the priest is a link between human and divine spheres, how could such a role not be more perfectly realized in the figure of Jesus as both man and God? He is the perfect nexus between the human and divine as he is both.

Bear in mind in Jesus' time there were still Jewish priests in the temple performing sacrifices, and this is precisely the role and definition of a priest--taking actions to connect human beings and God. (The nature of the need for sacrifice is a whole other issue.) As such, the performing of sacrifice by the Jewish priests gets taken to its ultimate level by Christ as priest who sacrifices himself-as the lamb of God. The ultimate action for the ultimate linking of the divine and human.

Again "Priests" today are nothing but a way for the powerful to maintain a control of the masses through FEAR (like the FEAR of going to some place called Hell after you die). The Pope and the Bishops of the Catholic Church are good examples of how the the concept of Priest has been thoroughly corrupted by Power.

This is a vast oversimplification based upon stereotypes and misinformtion. Priests actually believe in hell and most of the ones I know make it their life's work to keep themselves and others from going there. Certainly, in order to be priests they have been invested with a certain kind of spiritual power. Yet such power can only be granted by consent of the faithful. You do not stand in awe of priestly power because you do not believe, thus for you they have no power.

In general, your problem is not that people have power to control masses (maintain or foster a kind of order is another less loaded way of putting it) as judges, politicians and police officers do it all the time. Your issues is that you disagree with the order or the moral teachings that priests believe, thus you dislike the kind of order they are trying to foster and as a result it becomes far easier simply to see ALL priests as some kind of machiavels, acting only for some kind of personal delight and satisfaction to be found in controlling people.

I enjoyed talking to you, but I have taken up far too much time today posting. Life's duties call.

Sorry about the mixup of names, Donner.

"Does that mean drug users are operating on less brains?"

No actually that would imply that certain drugs--capable of producing "self-transcendence" or "oceanic boundlessness"--dissolve cognitive filters that ordinarily reduce sensory experience to a level that doesn't overwhelm.
#15 | Posted by nullifidian at 2010-02-23 08:08 PM

This is an important distinction - that brain damage can be predicted in a number of ways generally depending upon location versus the first-hand sensations to stimulation. Ghost limbs are real sensations - perhaps ghost brains are too?

Spirituality obviously does not equate to "brain damage", but this portion of the brain is important to recognize as behaviorally observable.

"Claiming man is the end all be all of the universe"

I have never made any such claim. That is the claim of the faithful who believe Earth and the entire universe was created by god for man, that god takes the time and effort to concern himself with who wins a boxing match or gets early parole, and that all the life and beauty on this planet is ours to abuse as we wish.
As far as I know, the universe doesn't care about man or even know we are here. We are just a primate on a rather ordinary planet in a rather ordinary system on the edge of an ordinary galaxy. I see more arrogance in assuming you are somehow important in the presence of a seemingly endless universe, and that an exception can be made --just for you-- upon your death.
#81 | Posted by BluSky at 2010-02-24 11:27 AM

Instead of a traveling neatly into a slot in our galactic arm our solar system bobs up and down through the denser-populated portions of our arm, exposing us to some neighborhood dangers. This may be what accidentally slingshots in pieces of our Oort cloud or otherwise attracts dangerous foreign objects to pass through the center of our system - close to Earth. Jupiter captures many of them, but exceptions have scarred our system throughout history.

Solar System Virtualization - add all labels, zoom in and tell me you are not impressed. Next hit Jupiter and remove all labels. Systems within systems. Our "chances" equate to these co-operative functions substantiating an agreement preventing random extinguishings. Luckily, nearly everything that is going to occur astronomically is generally acting within these parameters - the most dangerous having been co-opted into these systems long ago.

Regular glaciations and volcanism carve vast segments from the surface of Earths genetic library, interrupting global migrations, promoting extinctions and changing conditions planetarily.

Shaviv studied the Earth's historical exposure to cosmic rays over eons by looking at the exposure of 42 iron meteorites from different times in the planet's history. Examination of the meteorites indicated that the Earth's comic ray exposure changes on a period of about 143 million years, which matches up well with the historical incidence of the planet's ice ages and the Solar System's path through the galaxy's spiral arms.
LINKY.

Diseases semi-regularly re-deploy themselves as we co-evolve and conditions permit life to adapt into changing climates. Objects from space represent entirely alien resources that occasionally introduce serious mutation through either their composition or the environmental changes their impacts cause. This gives advantages to some animals, disadvantages to others - again the tendency being toward severe ecological alterations.

Earthbound life has experienced devastation at a few points throughout it's habitation - surviving the brink of utter annihilation repeatedly. That we've managed far enough to notice is remarkable.

Are these products of global glaciation?

You either take him a the Son of God, which is his claim or you take him as a mad man.

He was certainly a mad man if he believed he was the Son of God and God. But, even madmen can stumble upon the truth occasionally. And it is that truth that sometimes even causes them to go mad.

This is a vast oversimplification based upon stereotypes and misinformtion. Priests actually believe in hell and most of the ones I know make it their life's work to keep themselves and others from going there. Certainly, in order to be priests they have been invested with a certain kind of spiritual power. Yet such power can only be granted by consent of the faithful. You do not stand in awe of priestly power because you do not believe, thus for you they have no power.

Because there really is nothing "special" about a Priest. Whether they really believe in Hell is conjecture on your part. If they all truly believed this then there would never be any scandals involving a Priestly person yet we see these all the time.

Everyone has the capacity to be Spiritual. A Priest is just more educated in the ways of speaking in Religious jargon.

In 2002, the John Jay report tabulated a total of 4392 priests and deacons in the U.S. against whom allegations of sexual abuse were considered by their diocese to have been "substantiated.

Those are the ones we know about... the FEAR of Hell is not very strong to at least 4392 of them.

In general, your problem is not that people have power to control masses (maintain or foster a kind of order is another less loaded way of putting it) as judges, politicians and police officers do it all the time. Your issues is that you disagree with the order or the moral teachings that priests believe, thus you dislike the kind of order they are trying to foster and as a result it becomes far easier simply to see ALL priests as some kind of machiavels, acting only for some kind of personal delight and satisfaction to be found in controlling people.


I have no trouble when Men, granted (temporary) power by other Men, using reason and logic make just laws that protect people from each other and those laws protect the rights of all Men and helps to maintain civil order such as what judges and politicians do(police only enforce but do not make law)but I do have serious issues with folks of the Religious bent who have NO AUTHORITY but who make up shit and attribute it to some supposed holy scripture as tho THAT was their authority and then use that as a reason to enslave the minds of other men for nefarious purposes of controlling them like mice and restricting the rights of other men or women or pitting man against man and country against country.

yes... I do have a problem with that!

Now as for Jesus making up shit... Not sure I ever said that. What I do believe is that what Jesus said and did and what he is attributed with are probably vastly different. In other words Jesus probably didn't make up shit (when he wasn't mad) but men that followed him most certainly have.

Whether they really believe in Hell is conjecture on your part.

The ones I have spoken to tell me they do, and I have spoken to many. While, they may be lying, so may everybody in the world lie in regard to their personal convictions.

I certainly doubt that a group that forms its identity around a set of beliefs would exist in any real way if their members routinely denied the tenants that called them together in the first place.

If they all truly believed this then there would never be any scandals involving a Priestly person yet we see these all the time.

That does not follow. Priests are human and prone to sin like all the rest of us. Priest routinely go to confession, even the Pope did. Augustine, said the Church is not a museum of saints but a school for sinners. Moreover the church's has also been "semper reformanda" always reforming--always examining itself. How well it does this is open for criticism and I will be the first in line to say that a number of priests and the church itself has fallen down on the job to say the least.

Your other issues are based criticism based upon a lack of faith. For you priests are just people spouting religious jargon, and what they say is just some "shit" based upon scriptures which you find dubious.

I have no delusions of trying to convert you or convince you otherwise, but if my simply stating that Jesus is God does not constitute an argument (and I accept that), your simply stating that it is all just made up "shit" doesn't make it so either.

This is why it is called belief.

"Myself and about a billion others would love to be convinced (of God)...."

What about the other five billion on this planet? They seem to have no problem. Makes you wonder what tail of that old normal distribution you and your cynical ass really occupy.

"You and I could both be robots, but if we don't know it, who cares....?"

What to care about? I suggest you care about the existence of objective reality, for a start. You were all for that until you wussied out on the "proof" thing.

"What to care about? I suggest you care about the existence of objective reality, for a start. You were all for that until you wussied out on the "proof" thing."

I have no idea of what you're talking about, Zed the Obscure. Reminds me a Thomas Hardy novel, but I don't recall the title.

"I have ni idea what you're talking about..."

Well, that in itself is interesting. It's also interesting to be called Obscure just for expecting someone to remember a conversation.

But I'll make another stab at it while waiting for dinner: Though it seems common sense and everyday experience that things are, uh, real, it's not humanly possible to prove anything to an existential certainty.

What we do instead is to erect conventions of decision-making that allow us to come to a conclusion. This process is wholly psychological.

Because it is wholly psychological, you and I are always going to be in the same boat when it comes to demonstrating anything is really, actually, real.

It can't be done. Advances in science only emphasize that.

What makes you different from me is a certain lack of personal insight. You think you see the real. But God knows, and only He, what you see.

NULLIFIDIAN---It MATTERS whether or not we are really robots. The truth matters. The truth, we are promised, sets us free.

Blusky,

"As far as I know, the universe doesn't care about man or even know we are here. We are just a primate on a rather ordinary planet in a rather ordinary system on the edge of an ordinary galaxy. I see more arrogance in assuming you are somehow important in the presence of a seemingly endless universe, and that an exception can be made --just for you-- upon your death."

As far as our place in the universe, I saw it explained like this.

Our solar system exists on the edge of the Milky Way Galaxy. As far as size goes, if the Milky Way Galaxy was the size of the earth, our solar system would be about the size of a cd/dvd. That means the Milky Way Galaxy is pretty big.

And...it is said that there are 100's of billions of such galaxies in the universe.

And yet....I believe I matter.

If we are talking about an infinitely powerful, all knowing God, that can transcend time and space, then giving me a moment of His time would be no more difficult than me typing on this blog.

As a Christian, I certainly don't hear voices.

You just have a sense of things and sometimes odd things happen that leave you to wonder.

I think most Christians believe in God simply because they choose to.

"Because it is wholly psychological, you and I are always going to be in the same boat when it comes to demonstrating anything is really, actually, real."

I don't worry about it too much. I think I exist, and that my sensory perception of reality is reasonable, and that's good enough. What's your problem? Sounds like you want/need something more.

"You think you see the real. But God knows, and only He, what you see.

#129 | Posted by Zed

Yeah, well that presumes the existence of "God", as you define him/her/it.

It also presumes the existence of you, as you define yourself. You don't get it, so we'll just leave it go.

"Sounds like you need/want something more...."

Yep. Someone to talk with who can follow their own thoughts to a conclusion.

Yep. Someone to talk with who can follow their own thoughts to a conclusion.

#135 | Posted by Zed

And you lecture others on smug condescension. What a bore you are.

"It also presumes the existence of you, as you define yourself."

Well, my senses tell me that I exist, but they don't say anything about the existence of "God". That's your particular fantasy.

In fact, Zed, I think everyone that thinks like you is delusional. The preposterous story of Christianity with all its miracles, resurrections, burning bushes, etc. is a joke. Anybody that takes all the biblical stories literally is a friggin' idiot.

"My senses tell me I exist...."

Well, not really----But that point is going to swirl down the same drain as the rest, so why bother?

"And you lecture others on smug condescension..."

Well, you got me there. But then again, we're just two peas in a pod aren't we?

Being mean to you doesn't have an effect, being gracious to you doesn't have an effect, being logical with you doesn't have an effect, learned discourses regarding history don't have an effect, philosophical discourse doesn't have an effect, appealing to your emotions doesn't have an effect.

As far as my senses can tell, you're not real.

The worth of discussions like this is that I begin to understand the whole pearls before swine thing. Yes, the swine do at least try to turn and devour you.

No, NULLIFIDIAN, I'm not calling you a pig---Though you can't prove you're not. It's a metaphor.

"What a bore you (ZED) are..."

Well, good---Now demonstrate how bored you are by not coming back and wallowing in my sty. Oink.

Or prove your fascination with me by having the last word. This is what's called an experiment.

As far as my senses can tell, you're not real.

#140 | Posted by Zed

That has zero impact on me, so why should I care?

Or prove your fascination with me by having the last word. This is what's called an experiment.

#142 | Posted by Zed

No, that's what's called doing a Goatman impression.

As far as my senses can tell, you're not real.

#140 | Posted by Zed

Not really, your eyes are seeing words he typed, therefore your senses tell you he's real.

You type a statement, and he responds, that's more than you get from your God.

it's not humanly possible to prove anything to an existential certainty.

#129 | Posted by Zed

No, but there is proof of the physical world around me that I experience everyday. I put my foot down and the ground stops it. That happens every time I put my foot down. Does every time you pray or worship bring such concrete results?

"There is proff in the physicla world I experience every day...."

With respect, this conversation has zoomed over your head just as mightily as if did NIULLIFIDIAN.

"I put my foot down and that stops it...."

Or so it seems to you. And that's absoultely as far as you or anyone will be able to take it. Ever. There's much discussion concerning "myths" around here. We're now dissecting one of yours.

So natural does this myth seem to you, you can't peek even a millimeter around it. It's no wonder other people confuse you. It's like you live in a peanut butter world and are confronted by jelly.

After reams, entire encyclopedias, of information and theoretical discussion about how deceptive the physical world is for people as human beings, so many apply these lessons only to others.

"Concrete results"? Concrete simply refers to what is beheld by the senses. People perceive God through the senses, but this is the exact point you adopt my arguments, but without any hint of self-awareness or personal shame.

"Your eyes see the words he's (NULLIFIDIAN) typed, therfore you know he's real...."

Yes, I'm afraid you've understood nothing, nothing at all to date. You don't even think about the limitations of evidence within terms of your own world-view. I have to believe you have never understood exactly why it is you believe what you believe.

That is the difference between you and me.

The fascinating thing is that Christ knew exactly where you and NULLIFIDIAN are coming from and why, and spoke about both of you (figuratively) all of the time.

It's like you live in a peanut butter world and are confronted by jelly.

#147 | Posted by Zed

Are you sure you don't do drugs?

You can spout all the hippy-dippy metaphysical nonsense you want, you're not going to razzle-dazzle me. Trust me I've taken enough acid in my youth to have thought of all that before. You might as well be defending the Matrix or the world of Kilgore Trout or Buckaroo Bonsai.

The fact is the world is as you and I and Nulli experience it. If you want to pretend or imagine anything else, that's fine, but then you have about as much base for your beliefs as those that believe in fairies or leprechauns.

Imo, to discount the natural inclination and capabilities attributed both philosophically and literally to belief in spiritual power is mistaking one fundamental prejudice for another.

We are a curious animal - intellectual drama is our forte, from the Hallmark & History Channels to televangelism and Jerry Springer, adding to the obvious elements of our nature what we perceive as our better nature. Behavior through learned performance is such an important common tool that we are perpetually self-programming, rectifying and reflecting our environment. Some people consider superstition in general to be the product of ritualized ignorance, but forget that most if not all traditions stem out from these hierarchical social constructs, behavioral barriers that often begun as worship and then having been codified into society. The process perfects itself as we sociologically grow and our individualism is transcended through dominant social identification. Inevitably even our most elaborate society is a product of ritualized ignorance.

You don't even think about the limitations of evidence within terms of your own world-view.

Yeah, sure. It's so terrible to restrict the definition of "evidence" to include only the things whose influence on reality can be measured or inferred objectively.

It doesn't leave much room for bullshit or confabulation. I can see why you resent that sort of epistemology, Zed. You simply can't be bothered to support your statements with any objectively valid evidence. I understand. You're obviously a busy person... maintaining your blissful ignorance must be a time consuming endeavor.

If they all truly believed this then there would never be any scandals involving a Priestly person yet we see these all the time.

That does not follow. Priests are human and prone to sin like all the rest of us. Priest routinely go to confession, even the Pope did. Augustine, said the Church is not a museum of saints but a school for sinners.

Yeah I really like that rule (that someone clearly made up). The "Priests" know it is a sin (and an abomination at that!) yet they do it anyway and then they ask for forgiveness and the slate is wiped clean!?

how convenient! Yet there is NO clear path for a forgiveness of a common Man who has some doubts as to the accuracy of the Bible to be forgiven for those doubts after death.

Don't get me wrong Grendel. I believe in the concept forgiveness but not in the way the Catholic Church has developed the concept to suit its own purposes.

To me, Forgiveness is more akin to balancing the Karma between Humans than it is balancing a relationship with an unseen God.

And as I said...if Jesus did exist I doubt he made "shit up" and have never really said that. The "made up shit" came much later as Christians argued about what really happened and adjusted things to suit the powers that be.

"You can spout all the hippy trippy metaphysical stuff you want...."

You don't understand, or you won't. I've asserted nothing metaphysical at all. I've told you how the cow eats the cabbage. You don't have to deal with it. Go back to sleep.

"You can't be bothered to support your assertions with objectively valid evidence...."

1) "Objective" evidence, even for science, is a product of human psychology strained through certain decision rules, themselves a product of human psychology.

2) Therefore, nothing can be proven to an existential certainty.

3) Therefore, if you accept something as being certain, the decision necessarily contains a certain proportion of arbitrariness. THE PRECISE AMOUNT ALWAYS UNKNOWABLE.

4) I'm telling you nothing real scientists and genuine realists don't know. They work around it.

5) YOU work around it.

6) You're not, however, working around the increasingly obvious fact your not interested in discerning you asses from holes in the ground.

7) So I'm arrogant. You don't know how easy you make that at times.

"The fact is that the world is as you or I or NULLIFIDIAN experience it...."

All I asked you to do was prove that. Start now. I'll ring the Nobel committee to come have a look.

Interesting to note the difference between the original version:

"The fact is the world is as you and I and Nulli experience it."

And Zed's "quote":

"The fact is that the world is as you or I or NULLIFIDIAN experience it...."

Looks like Zed is trying to get my attention. I have no idea why.

"You can't be bothered to support your assertions with objectively valid evidence...."

1) "Objective" evidence, even for science, is a product of human psychology strained through certain decision rules, themselves a product of human psychology.
2) Therefore, nothing can be proven to an existential certainty.
3) Therefore, if you accept something as being certain, the decision necessarily contains a certain proportion of arbitrariness. THE PRECISE AMOUNT ALWAYS UNKNOWABLE.
4) I'm telling you nothing real scientists and genuine realists don't know. They work around it.
5) YOU work around it.
6) You're not, however, working around the increasingly obvious fact your not interested in discerning you asses from holes in the ground.
7) So I'm arrogant. You don't know how easy you make that at times.
#156 | Posted by Zed at 2010-02-25 08:18 PM

I hope you won't find me too rude for commenting, but this is an interesting line of reasoning. That experience is solely limited to perception and that scientifically provable reality is mere objectivity. Imo, any outcome can't be defined as clearly as the question, but due to the nature of an evolving system, itself requiring motivational elements to maintain processes of evolution, we can assume that any outcome is somewhat physiologically and psychologically pre-determined. The human mind has physical limits, but existentialism quintessentially cannot. Our genetics are limited to the experience and successes of predecessors states of existence - thus proving that most everything that we equate to our reality is in fact a part of our very own system of evolution - scientific objectivity based on prior experiences. So naturally we have intuition regarding interpreting "reality" and our subjectivity is existentially iterated through past generations with reflections on this dilemma, not simply our own attempts at rationalization.

In other words - would we need an android like Commander Data to perform much of the conceptually tedious "proving" since the human condition is so wrought with "existing"?:]

NULLIFIDIAN----Nobel Committee on the line here: My Norwegian is rusty but I think they're saying "Put up or shut up".

You're the Proofmeister. Should be no challenge at all for you and your "common sense".

REDLIGTROBOT---In my opinion, DATA---Having been created by human beings---Would have the same issues with "proof" as my friend NULLIFIDIAN has. In fact, he and NULLIFIDIAN might have a harder time, being cut off from the advantages of intuition.

lol. You can stop shouting my name, ZED. My eyesight is just fine. You're obsession with me is duly noted.

you're = your

After seeing Nulli's error I think he's spiritual!

God will smite you, pothead!

God will smite you, pothead!

#166 | Posted by 101Chairborne at 2010-02-26 09:47 AM | Reply | Flag: Definitely a wake and bake stoner.

"You can stop shouting my name now, ZED...."

See anything odd about your statement? It's another experiment.

See anything odd about your statement? It's another experiment.

#168 | Posted by Zed

Whatever. No one cares about your "experiments".

"Whatever...."

You bet. And I know you won't take out the trash until you feel like it. No matter what your mother says.

You bet. And I know you won't take out the trash until you feel like it. No matter what your mother says.

#170 | Posted by Zed the Obscure

You don't get it, do you? I'm not interested in your riddles. Your obsession with me is flattering, or creepy, I'm not sure which. In any event, your bizarre, metaphysical horseshit is, as of now, being killfiled. Later, loon.

"I'm not interested in your riddles....."

I think you pretend not to understand what's said to you, as a means of self-protection.

Later.

"I think you pretend not to understand what's said to you, as a means of self-protection."

Any time you want to make an actual point in clear enough language that even us dumb atheists can understand you let me know, you hear?

It's often difficult to tell who is really angry at you through such a cold medium as this. I apologize for crossing a line with you I never intended to. I regard you as a worthy debater. The only evidence I can offer to confirm this is the length of my dialogue with you.

#174 | Posted by Zed

I don't have a problem with you, other than that you won't get to the point.

Here's what you do, Zed. Figure out how to express whatever it is your point of view is in Oxford debate terms, though perhaps less formal. It is hereby resolved that...bla bla bla.

Then we can have a friendly conversation.

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