FTA:

The notion quickly gained some traction among supporters who agreed with the Republican's assessment that many seniors frittered away their final year of high school, but faced vehement opposition from other quarters, including in his hometown of West Jordan.

"My parents are against it," [Utas West Jordan High School student body president J.D.] Williams said. "All the teachers at the school are against it. I'm against it." Buttars has since toned down the idea, suggesting instead that senior year become optional for students who complete their required credits early. He estimated the move could save up to $60 million, the Salt Lake Tribune reported.

Hahahah, well honestly, in high school, my last year was spent in classes that didn't really matter too.

This Thread goes Hand in Hand with the Census Thread.

If republicans can keep people as dumb as possible ----- perhaps even more dumbass wingdings would argue that using 133 million for a constitutionally mandated census is more egregious than Just Losing 9 Billion Dollars!

"Mandadory(sic)"

*sigh*

They would never think of cutting public employee salaries.

In my dealings with the current American youth...they need to be adding a few years.......... sad

"If republicans can keep people as dumb as possible ----- perhaps even more dumbass wingdings would argue that..."
#2 | Posted by Redneckville

Mandatory: Required

Many states do not have "mandatory" 12th grade. I graduated after 11th grade 30 years ago with all the requirements to graduate. Most people can complete the requirements by the 11th grade with room to spare. Perhaps it is the future Democrats that need that extra year to complete their education.

Knowledge is power

Can't let that get popular with those pesky "lower and middle classes" because educated people who can think for themselves are hard to control

Let's not forget the 30% cost increase for a college education and we are creating generations of idiots!

suggesting instead that senior year become optional for students who complete their required credits early.

That's the way colleges work. The difference is you pay mega-bucks, so nobody would complain. With the current education system as admitted indoctrination/compliance centers, if I had an 11th grader and homeschooling was not viable, it would be a no-brainer.

A stupid populace is an Rtard populace. Little surprise that this comes out of Utah.

Republican's suck *SQUAWK!*
Republican's suck *SQUAWK!*
Republican's suck *SQUAWK!*
Republican's suck *SQUAWK!*
Republican's suck *SQUAWK!*

axe

Please, someone teach this one track mind parrot a new trick!

Compulsory schooling laws are based on age, not grade. Doesn't sound like Buttars has any idea what he's talking about.

Buttars has since toned down the idea, suggesting instead that senior year become optional for students who complete their required credits early.

I wonder how many Repubbers DO finish the twelfth grade. It seems to me that making the nation's (or state's) laws should require no less than a master's degree in philosophy and political science. herm

DOC skipped the 12th grade and still managed to get his PhD in Astrology on-line.

This is just what we need in this country: less education! Brilliant plan.

If you can save 60 million by eliminating the 12th grade, you could save 720 million by eliminating school altogether.

Big deal ----- I skipped the 12th grade and look how good I'm a doing!

Sincerely

Goatboy

You don't needs no edumacation to watch the Cartoons on Fox Newz!

Sincerely

The Teabaggers

Big deal ----- I skipped the 12th grade and look how good I'm a doing!

Sincerely

Goatboy

Unlike redneckville who finally made it through at the age of 29. Kudos for sticking with it, shill!

I'm with Napoleon on this one...

"Religion is what keeps the poor from killing the rich."

Isn't this guy a frequent character on South Park???

Sorry, he'll have to complete it to graduate, just like everyone else.

We need more of this, not less. The idea that a 16-year old with the required credits is less able to head off to college or to work than the same kid a year later is dumb. It's only in this generation of American life that we consider it a virtue to stay in school until you're 26 years old, before going out and getting a job.

Still, if the parents are willing to pay, why not. Perpetual adolescence.

DOC skipped the 12th grade and still managed to get his PhD in Astrology on-line.

#13 | Posted by fwthom

Are all (or some) of those credits from DR?

FWTHOM dropped out of Jr. High because he already knew all the stupid stuff.

Education in America is big business and too costly--we should be defining early on (with parents) the abilities and skills of children and their educational direction---should lower the ultimate cost of education and more quickly move children in the educational direction that they are gifted for.

FWTHOM dropped out of Jr. High because he already knew all the stupid stuff.

#24 | Posted by RingMaster at 2010-02-16 08:39 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

You'd have a hard time getting me to beleive FWTHOM made it out of the 4th grade. Although, Goatman said "he's lucid AND makes sense"

1. Education does not equal intelligence.

2. Education does allow you to at least have an informed opinion on an issue, as well facilitating the communication of ideas.

3. A good education can provide a framework for evaluating other peoples ideas.

I'm not so sure that high school provides any of this in the first place. It's more of a gatekeeper for college and a babysitter for kids with raging hormones.

"Education in America is big business and too costly--we should be defining early on (with parents) the abilities and skills of children and their educational direction---should lower the ultimate cost of education and more quickly move children in the educational direction that they are gifted for."

That was a very efficient system in the USSR.
Sorry, I think I'd rather at least educate children through 12th grade and then let them choose what path they want to follow. Probably we should require them to go to grade 14 and actually have people who could read, think and be able to function in a modern society competing with nations around the world who actually think it's important to educate their people.

'I'm not so sure that high school provides any of this in the first place."

At least the high schools we have today but there are many ongoing educational experiments where they are getting amazing results through less traditional school settings such as all boys and all girls schools, etc. Bill Gates is spending huge amounts studying this.

I'd like to see an additional 2 more years of school become compulsory not a year less. We are falling behind other countries. Juco or tradeschool after HS needs to be mandatory.

@Danni

I hope so, I feel like it was a waste of time for me.

I wonder if aptitude tests in Junior high can funnel kids into programs that utilize their natural talents.

"I hope so, I feel like it was a waste of time for me."

Curriculum changes could have changed that dramatically for you. Students graduating from HS should have the necessary skills to actually earn a living in our society as they do in other societies. If it takes a couple more years....Hello.....anyone home...we have a huge unemployment problem....keeping kids in school has been traditionally, accross the globe one of the best ways of reducing unemployment and educating a work force.

Interesting choice, more money in your pocket or educated kids.

One of the more senseless suggestions in educational reforms in years.

Here, let me fix this for you:

It's not "Utah Repub Wants to Drop 12th Grade",

it's "Utah Repub Wants to Drop Mandatory Requirement for 12th Grade"

Heaven forbid they should have a "choice". Dems only want "choice" when it comes to executing the unborn.

God bless this fucking country.

Man it has gotten ugly on this forum over the years. Dinsey, just out of curiosity, are you intentionally trolling or are you serious? The Ad hominem attacks and straw man arguments run this place. I think in another five or ten years it will pretty much be all caps locks and swearing. I'm not entirely innocent.

Due to the educational system perhaps? I kid.

There's something to be said for Buttars' idea.

I think 8th grade ought to be the mandatory cut-off point---from that point on you either go into some some structured 4 year vocational program or you complete a traditional academic curriculum with the understanding you will be attending college.

The path you take at that point needs to be based upon your inherent intelligence and testing.

There are way too many people attending universities that have absolutely no business being there.

A major reason for this is that our popular culture tends to over-hype the value of a college degree. Everybody wants to be "educated". The problem is, there is a big, big difference between being "well-educated" and being "well-schooled".

Barack Hussein Obama is a perfect example of this paradox, as is the existence of various "black studies", "womyn's studies", "cultural anthropology", "queer studies", or "sociology" departments throughout the university system---each masquerading as a legitimate field of academic study while being nothing more than a cesspool for a bunch of little suburbanite jackoffs enamored with the neato-mosquito leftism being spoon-fed to them by the quirky old guy with the suede elbow-patches of his sports jacket.

Its OK to not go to college and actually learn a trade, instead. In fact, you'll probably be more useful, more employable, and make more money, and be happier if you did.

And we, as a society, would save a tremendous amount of money by not wasting it on "Mommy & Daddy's Little Angel Making Us So Proud at State While He Dreads His Hair and Discovers the Injustices Committed Upon the Palestinians So He Changes His Major to Art."

The problem is, there is a big, big difference between being "well-educated" and being "well-schooled".

Barack Hussein Obama is a perfect example of this paradox.

He is. Obama is well educated, and when last he was in a room with over a hundred Republicans, they left "well-schooled" and afraid to to repeat the process in any form.

Gotta go ponder the waste to humanity had not Jak Se majored in whatever hard science he got his degree in...

Obama is well educated

No.

That's precisely my point.

Obama is well schooled.

He's not well educated.

In fact, he's a fucking joke whose only redeeming quality is his ability to thrive in an environment 100% comprised of people who share the same, stupid-ass ideology as he.

Outside a complete and utter lack of any kind of executive and leadership background prior to taking office, Obama's biggest deficiency is that he never spent any time in his life in the private sector. He spouts the 'jobs mantra' and then threatens to utilize executive powers via the EPA to jack-up energy prices in a fit of a temper tantrum because his coveted and grossly stupid cap and trade bill is dead - this shit is a job-killer, yet he is so enthralled with a bullshit ideology that he is going to push it anyways - or at least he appears to be willing to push it. It's kind of difficult to take seriously his claims for wanting to jump-start the faltering economy when whatever positive measures he proposes are more than offset by other negative measures.

He may be well-schooled, but he clearly doesn't have a clue regarding the nuts and bolts of an economy.

had not Jak Se majored in whatever hard science he got his degree in...

TTU 1997
CASNR
MS - Not Ending Your Sentences in Prepositions

You majored in farming and ranching.

Is that a four-year degree, or do I have that confused with home economics?

You majored in farming and ranching.

No, Boyd.

It's the same department, isn't it?

Now were you making some kind of cogent point, rebuttal, etc.?

Or is it "night blog" time?

Neither, apparently.

Was there a point in your college career when you were forced to choose between making a weekly home budget and taking a science class for non-majors (ya' know, the one without all the math)?

LOL.

'night blog

Did you go to college, Boyd?

If so, did you graduate and what was your degree?

Seriously, I am genuinely curious.

As a Canadian, I appreciate & support the Senator's move. Anything that makes the USA less competitive helps.

I'm curious as to whether the little fuck has ever had so much as a scintilla of education or professional experience in the natural sciences.

The entire schtick is a series of ad verecundiam assumptions and attempted Socratic rhetoric while bringing absolutely nothing to the table other than what is parroted (if not outright plagiarized) from Josh Marshall's blog.

Genuinely curious Jak, what is a CASNR degree? Not rebutting just want to know.

Utah Rethug wants to drop requirement making 12th grade compulsary?

Gets blowback and softens stance to "can quit after eleven grades if required credits have been garnered"?

A law, apparently, already on the books?

* facepalm *

Here's the thing. The story may be a non-starter but the issue is highly relevant. Instead of arguing for less schooling the argument should be for more and better schooling.

When America was founded the idea of mandatory education of all children was a pretty novel concept. It was remarked on at the time that in order for a democracy to work properly one needed an informed and educated electorate. That's still true today. For all it's faults the public school system has been a good thing and it has inspired many other countries around the world to follow suit.

But the American school year is still based on an earlier time period when the realities of a primarily agrarian society dictated that in the summer months kids needed to leave school, go home and help out in the fields with the harvest.

That is no longer the case and the 165 to 180 day school year no longer prepares the American student to be competitive to kids from other countries which have updated and expanded their school years. Japan, fer example leads the world in school days per year with 243. Europe seems to be gravitating towards a 200 day school year and America and Canada should do so as well.

The idea that some kids can leave school at 15 or 16 by choice in order to go straight into a trade or technical school (as we've seen in the UK) is also an idea worth considering.

Be Well.

In most other countries (ahead of US in education) only 9 years or so is required. If we reduce K-12 to K-10 and demand the "real" education-the whole country will be in much better shape economically as well as socially. This is a simple and meaningful idea that will probably not be adopted because the unions hold the whole country by the proverbial balls.

I think 8th grade ought to be the mandatory cut-off point---f
rom that point on you either go into some some structured 4 year vocational program or you complete a traditional academic curriculum with the understanding you will be attending college.

#37 | Posted by Jak_Se_Mao

those folks essntially have - -

no povety

no unemployment

no healthcare crisis

NO need for a HUGE Federal bureaucracy

right, and no infrastructure for a military, either.

They live under the protection of the US govt. They wouldn't survive without it.

DOC skipped the 12th grade and still managed to get his PhD in Astrology on-line.
#13 | Posted by fwthom

And it's because of the knowledge I acquired in that academcially rigorous course of study that I can predict -- with unerring accuracy -- that each and every time to venture onto a DR thread you will, at some point, get your ass handed to you on a platter.

"I think 8th grade ought to be the mandatory cut-off point---from that point on you either go into some some structured 4 year vocational program or you complete a traditional academic curriculum with the understanding you will be attending college."

Oh, jeebus, just what you'd expect from Jackie Meeeow: the tired old European nodel of the crucial sink-or-swim decision made early on, late bloomers be damned. Laughable if it wasn't so fundamentally sad.

Dpt. of Education (16K employees)-oxymoron and Dpt. of Energy (zillions of bureaucrats)-oxymoron could be safely abolished immediately. Non of these bureaucracies have aided, created or educated anything or anyone and their very existence is not constitutional. Whatever functions are deemed worthy should be rolled over to the Commerce and restructured.

the tired old European nodel of the crucial sink-or-swim decision made early on, late bloomers be damned.

That is a good point. When I entered college I had no idea as to what I wanted to do for a living - quite honestly, I still don't; I work because I have to earn money.

I think it's a mistake to pigeon-hole some kid in a mandatory fashion. Having said that, I think Mao's suggestion makes sense as long as it's a choice, not a mandate.

The late bloomers (as evident on these pages) who "failed to launch" will continue to live in their parent's place in any case. The K-12 system turned into a real unworkable scheme thanks (in no small part) to the unions and their interests.

Buttars is NOT proposing that 12th grade be eliminated altogether, as the title of the article seems to indicate. You would know this if you read an article that actually talked about the circumstances of the proposal rather than taking one aspect of it and completely spinning it in the wrong direction.

This is just another reason to justify the commonly held belief that the Republican party is the party of the wealth. Wealthy people have the means to educate their children irrespective of what happens to public education. The same can be said of just about anything that benefits the masses i.e. medical care, social security, etc. That is why I find it so interesting that so many people of limited means vote against their own economic self interest and support Republicans. I presume that it was the social issues that bound the cloth coat Republicans to the party. However, I suspect that if things get bad enough, not even the social issues will keep them wedded to the Republican party.

as long as it's a choice, not a mandate.
#61 | Posted by JeffJ

Agreed, Jeff.

The late bloomers (as evident on these pages) who "failed to launch" will continue to live in their parent's place in any case. The K-12 system turned into a real unworkable scheme thanks (in no small part) to the unions and their interests.
#62 | Posted by Liberty

How you move that much bullshit around this early in the day...well, of course: strong back, weak mind.

This issue, as it has arisen, is somewhat personal for me, Doc.

I had no clue as to what I wanted to do as a 'grownup' even at the age of 22.

I DID know that I wanted to get married, have a couple of kids and be the best Dad I could be. On that front I have been successful; so far. Parenthood and husbandhood is constant work but is also very challenging and very rewarding. Again, on this specific issue I look inward - upon graduating from college I didn't have (and still don't) a clear vision of what work I wanted to perform in order to earn money. Also again, to force a 'child' to make such a determination as a young teenager seems the antithesis of the notion of freedom. Now, to be fair, the other night I was beating up a bit on Nullifidian regarding his prior stated views regarding intellectual property/artist rights/patents/etc. However, I limited my criticisms because he wasn't around at the time to defend his position. At this point I will give the same treatment to Mao - he deserves the opportunity to defend/clarify his position before further criticism.

The idea that some kids can leave school at 15 or 16 by choice in order to go straight into a trade or technical school (as we've seen in the UK) is also an idea worth considering.

This may be a novel idea in some states but it certainly isn't in NJ. NJ has many vocational schools that offer kids an alternative to the traditional college prep curriculum. I think that it is a great idea. In fact, I think that ALL kids should have some meaningful exposure to vocational training before they leave high school.

I don't think the fact that kids don't know what to do with their life should have an impact on the length of a high school curriculum. Most people do not know what they want to do when they are 16, and are not any more clear on the issue when they are halfway through college.

I think the greater point here is that many 12th graders sit around doing nothing for a year when they could be working, or gaining some other valuable form of experience. I think a better idea would be to make 12th grade optional for those who get a job or enter into some vocational training, but mandatory for everyone else.

Having made it illegal to open a car dealership on Sundays or the Great Salt Lake to rise above I-80, the demented Utah legislators slog on.

Meanwhile, the UofU has surpassed MIT in the number of business start-ups spawned by the University.

Its a strange combination of religulous business.

Poor wages in a comparatively stable economy.

When kids from Germany visit American schools, it's like a vacation. I know one who was in California a couple years ago, in the tenth grade. She had to have intense help getting back up to speed when she returned home. But she had great fingernails!

My own kiddo is only in the fourth grade and is already ahead of American kids by a looong shot. She could probably go straight to sixth or even seventh grade next year if we move back to the US.

Another girl I know of with mixed parents moved here from Florida when her parents divorced. She was the top student in her school there. And when she moved here - a big flop, so bad she she almost got left back. She even failed English. Her mother, an arrogant German twit, blames the teachers. But it's just the system.

I think kids in the US are just coddled too much.

Very few students here get A's. That's because an A really means something. "C" really does represent the average, and the idea of grading on a curve would be met with disbelief.

And, lol, open book tests??? No way.

So, basically, whether they cancel 12th grade or not is not the question. The question is, what'll they accomplish in the remaining 11 years?

Also - the "sink or swim" system here, which begins in the fifth grade, not the eighth, has been revamped and made much more flexible, specifically to accommodate the "late bloomers". I agree that there should be more weight given to learning real trades in the US, and apprenticeship programs should be fully integrated into the system.

A kid here who goes through three years of masonry school starting in tenth grade probably has as much education as the average American with a pointless Bachelor's degree.

Actually sounds like a liberal solution to reducing the dropout rate. All those students who typically drop out their senior year will now have graduated. Success!!!! While we are at it let's just give everyone A's and only make them take 2 classes of their choice. Let's lower the bar so everyone can get over it with little effort from us.

"suggesting instead that senior year become optional for students who complete their required credits early"

To me, it seems like 90% of the people on this thread are responding to the inaccurate headline rather than the actual proposal.

The % of kids who finish all their required courses by their junior year AND don't want to attend senior year can't be that high.

I think the vast majority of students already do. I was there every third day my senior year.

Liberty misrepresents other school systems. In Europe they split after 9th grade. Those qualified, go to College preparatory High School. Those who do not pass the tests go to trade high school. Nothing wrong with that, we need more tradesmen than Professors.

But this country has an unbelievable unemployment crisis right now in the 18-24 year old age group, at 50% in many regions. It has never been this bad, ever.

We should not throw these kids out on the street nor should we think we can educate our way out of the job losses created by offshoring.

most kids who a fuck ups don't go to 12th grade anyway. if they do, they're all stoned and taking underwater basket weaving and wasting everybody else's time. a lot of them are 18 anyway.

kids who want to be there can still be there. don't see a thing wrong with the proposal. still have my doubts as to whether it's the right thing.

Could start having kids sooner, eh what?

Maybe we should just require every child to go through graduate school and write three thesis and then they can decide what they want to do.

I can just see it, Asymptotic standard deviations of line drives by Alex Rodriguez in 80 degree ambient temperature environment.

We already have 99% garbage thesis already designed to placate the proffs and get a degree, like global warming.

The basis of global warming argument was an imaginary thesis by a student of iceburgs melting. Probably got an A.

maybe they should start diverting kids younger to vocational schools instead of filling the minds of our future tradespeople with calculus and chemistry.

I graduated after 11th grade 30 years ago

And it shows, KBM. And even that was a gift.

I'm guessing this klown was just getting embarrassed by the number of 12th graders who had to cut class to take care of their babies or cook hubby dinner, although they could share that duty with the other wives. In Mormonstan, an old maid is defined as any single woman who's had more than three periods.

Reading the post most libtards think that more years of education is required and most Rethugs think that compentancy should be the requirement regardless of age.

Kind of defines most libs an rethugs logic. At work most libtards think because they showed up on the job they want a big check were as rethugs think they should be paid based on productivity not how many hours you put in.

How come if they want to save money they go after our kids?

"Kind of defines most libs an rethugs logic. At work most libtards think because they showed up on the job they want a big check were as rethugs think they should be paid based on productivity not how many hours you put in."

Amazing, right wing projection! Is it ignorance that that cause these projections? Probably. Wide brush you got there asshole!

This Thread goes Hand in Hand with the Census Thread.

If republicans can keep people as dumb as possible ----- perhaps even more dumbass wingdings would argue that using 133 million for a constitutionally mandated census is more egregious than Just Losing 9 Billion Dollars!

#2 | Posted by Redneckville

Why do you still post here, Redneck? You're an idiot!

Hey, they let the Aid workers go in Haiti. Looks like you don't get your wish of them being beheaded, drawn and quartered... LOL!!!!

WTF do you mean by "keeping people dumb"?

This is public school we are talking about! LOL!!!

How come if they want to save money they go after our kids?

#82 | Posted by suzycreamcheese

This makes no fucking sense at all!

WHY ARE LIBS SO SENSITIVE ABOUT A FAILED PROGRAM!

Education is a joke in this country!

You dumb fuckers keep throwing more more at a failed endeavor. That's insane!

Then when I tell you that you're an idiot and don't want to pay for it anymore, you say that I'm attacking children?

What? Are you completely stupid?

BPH-
re: Actually sounds like a liberal solution to reducing the dropout rate...

I'm sure that's why it was proposed by a Republican from that most liberal of states, Utah.