That's a big loss for the DNC. He was probably a lock to win as a centrist in a "purple" state.

In a recent poll he was beating probable opponents by 16-20 points. Chances for the GOP to pick up this seat just went from not fucking likely, to in the hunt.

He says he is tired of the partisanship in the senate. I wonder if the beating he's been taking from the far left for not always walking the party line got to him.

I also doubt this is the last we'll hear from Sen. Bayh... an independent run in '12? A primary challenge to Obama? A bipartisan ticket with him has Pres or VP candidate? Things are getting interesting.

Rats fleeing the sinking ship.

cited excessive partisanship that makes progress on public policy difficult to achieve as the motivation for his decision

If this is the problem then maybe he should stay and find a way to force the partisan assholes out.

Rats fleeing the sinking ship.
#3 | Posted by 726

Helps explain why more congressional Republicans are quitting than Democrats. Thanks for pointing that out.

Rats fleeing the sinking ship.
#3 | Posted by 726

Helps explain why more congressional Republicans are quitting than Democrats. Thanks for pointing that out.

Bayh might have been Hil's VP choice had she won.

But, as cynical as we all seem to be around here, the likelihood of Obama getting a real primary challenge is negligible at this point, and quitting the Senate now is not necessary to that anyway.

I think he is just going into the bidness world to make some money, like he says.... and who wouldn't be fed up with working in the US Senate these days, where it requires 60 votes to get a lunch order in?

Helps explain why more congressional Republicans are quitting than Democrats

You might want to check the colors of the districts they're retiring from.

18 House GOPers are retiring but they are for the most part from solidly red districts. Lincoln Diaz-Balart is from a more vulnerable district, but his brother (also from a less safe district) might run for the seat. Replacing him might be David Rivera a state Rep for the GOP.

The GOP retirements are easier to swallow then the DNC ones at the moment.

He was definitely one of the more reasonable members of my party, along with Nunn from Georgia. I hope Dems wake up and throw the left overboard. They have ruined a great party.

" I hope Dems wake up and throw the left overboard. They have ruined a great party."

WE just don't need two Republican parties.

Big loss for the US. Bayh is one of the good guys. I supported him in his short presidential bid and i'll support him in the future as well...

He says he is tired of the partisanship in the senate. I wonder if the beating he's been taking from the far left for not always walking the party line got to him.

"Beating?" From the "far left?" Any examples of what you're alluding to?

You think after 12 years in the Senate he just couldn't handle the pressure when PETA got down on him for eating a cheeseburger or something?

"Beating?" From the "far left?" Any examples of what you're alluding to?

Well, I would refer you to Danni's post just 2 above your's. I would also refer you to other Left wing blogs, such as TalkingPointsMemo.com or DKos and find any story where Bayh is displaying his centrist tendencies, especially on topics like healthcare. Bayh is not liked by the far left, I'm just wondering if maybe he got sick of it.

Bayh was a conservative Democrat. I hope the Dems can put someone up who is less likely to sell out his party on issues like health care and shows some backbone from time to time.

Fucking centrist listening to both sides of the aisle... we don't need that type of fuckhole in DC now do we Democrats?

Bayh would have been a good democrat potus, IMHB. Wonder if he'll be running in 2012...as an independent?

I hear he is gonna run against the communist organizer in 2012. I hope so. The democrat party needs someone who is not a leftwing extremist. Replacing Obama with a centrist would be the sane thing to do for the democrats.

I'm just curious about one thing... you Democrats couldn't get shit done with 60 senate votes and an overwhelming majority in the House, and you're big push this election year seems to be kicking out the centrists or blue dogs which will likely lead to you losing seats in the congress since those guys tend to come from center or conservative districts. So if you couldn't get jack shit passed with filibuster proof majorities, why are you taking up a strategy that will get you even less power?

"I'm just curious about one thing... you Democrats couldn't get shit done with 60 senate votes"

Never mind the fact that the Democrats never had sixty votes. Nice talking point though.

The Dems didn't kick Bayh out, Rob. There's no way they would have wanted him to retire now.

Never mind the fact that the Democrats never had sixty votes. Nice talking point though.

#19 | POSTED BY DANNI

Oh, you're talking point now is that the 2 independents were never a part of the DNC caucus? Okay, that's not silly at all.

The DNC never had 60 votes because the Harry Reid and Barack Obama are terrible leaders. Even a half assed job on their part and Healthcare would have been passed months ago.

-Fucking centrist listening to both sides of the aisle... we don't need that type of fuckhole in DC now do we Democrats?

When the GNOP offers only obstructionism and politics over country stategerizing, why would anyone want listen to them?

The public has figured this out, blaming the GNOP more than Obama and the Dems.

Rob, I can't speak to your perceived Democratic strategy of kicking out the centrists, but isn't that pretty much what the Republicans did during the Bush years? Purge the non-neocons?

The Dems didn't kick Bayh out, Rob. There's no way they would have wanted him to retire now.

#20 | POSTED BY RCADE

No, you didn't kick him, but its not like you guys were treating him all that well. Hell you just said he didn't have a backbone AKA a coward AKA dickless.

Indiana just went from a solid DNC hold to in play for the GOP... Also if the Indiana DNC wants to have a primary run for his seat, they have to have candidates submit their names with the petitions for them to be on the ballot in about 36 hours. Bayh possibly just skull fucked the DNC... I highly doubt he would have done that if he was happy with the party. Maybe there is some scandal we'll learn about in time... but at the moment this seems like a big Fuck You to the Democratic party.

Rob, I can't speak to your perceived Democratic strategy of kicking out the centrists, but isn't that pretty much what the Republicans did during the Bush years? Purge the non-neocons?

#23 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

How'd that workout for us?

Right against Left. Left against Right.

The former is Right. The later is not.

I hope the Dems can put someone up who is less likely to sell out his party on issues like health care and shows some backbone from time to time.

I guess I should stop voting for Dems then - I personally think the health care reform proposed was worthless. And I guess being pro-bipartisan means you are spineless. So much for that big tent. No wonder independents are fleeing.

Wow! Where are all the DR folks here on govt. assistance (or govt. jobs...same thing) going to get their govt. handouts when all these Dems retire?

Maybe there is some scandal we'll learn about in time... but at the moment this seems like a big Fuck You to the Democratic party.

Posted by Rob_The_A_Hole at 2010-02-15 12:53 PM

One of the two, if not both. My bet is on the former, but the latter is certainly the effect. This does not help the Democratic Party at all.

How'd that workout for us?

Well, you didn't fare well in the elections, but I feel like the dialogue has continued to shift to the right.

Just a few posts up you've got someone saying Barack Obama is a "leftwing extremist" when in fact he's extended so many olive branches across the aisle as to result in massive deforestation of olive groves.

The news on Bayh is so fresh I can't tell if it's a purge or he just quit, but I'm leaning towards the latter. (With an expectation he'll run for Governor or what have you.) Why would the DNC want to purge a popular figure like Bayh and not say a nearly universally despised one like Pelosi...

"I highly doubt he would have done that if he was happy with the party."

The Democratic Party will be better off without closet Republicans like Bayh and a few others. Good riddance.

Wow! Where are all the DR folks here on govt. assistance (or govt. jobs...same thing) going to get their govt. handouts when all these Dems retire?

Come now, it's unnecessary to hate on our men and women in the armed forces like that. :)

The Democratic Party will be better off without closet Republicans like Bayh and a few others. Good riddance.

#31 | Posted by danni at 2010-02-15 01:00 PM

The Democratic Party will be better off without closet Republicans like Bayh and a few others. Good riddance.

#31 | POSTED BY DANNI

I bet somewhere in the drudge.com archives we could find a GOPer here (hell maybe even me) saying something along the lines of, "The Republican Party will be better off without closet Democrats like Lincoln Chafee and a few others. Good riddance."

And here we are, with 41 Senate seats...

re: the DR folks here on govt. assistance (or govt. jobs...same thing)

Here's a random question: If a contractor is funded by the gov't, does that count as "govt. jobs...same thing"?

Sabbatai-
re: # 35

I'd really like to know.

No, you didn't kick him, but its not like you guys were treating him all that well. Hell you just said he didn't have a backbone AKA a coward AKA dickless.

Since when do senators have to be treated well by the public? You have that ass-backwards. He was elected largely by Democratic volunteers and Democratic contributors. He could have done more with his time in the Senate than triangulate and kiss DLC ass.

They don't have to be treated well... but I just don't see the point in kicking out the moderates. Especially so soon after partisan extremism damn near destroyed the GOP... I mean it literally just happened.

The Centrists aren't being kicked out. Christ. If people actually READ stories, that would help. Remember all the hype over Rahm's F'ing retards statement? It was to the left over the pressure they were putting on centrists in the party and how they should back the hell off.

The Centrists aren't being kicked out. Christ. If people actually READ stories, that would help. Remember all the hype over Rahm's F'ing retards statement? It was to the left over the pressure they were putting on centrists in the party and how they should back the hell off.

The Centrists aren't being kicked out. Christ. If people actually READ stories, that would help

Do you understand the ramifications of this in both how it effects November, and even the timing of how it effects who the Democrats will put up for that seat? If they want to have a primary for this seat they have to collect the necessary signatures in around 36 hours.

Bayh was a dead set lock to win in November. He was winning by large margins.

Maybe not formally told to go fuck himself, but unless there is some scandal about to burst onto the scene this announcement was nothing short of a "Fuck you" to Democrats, and the only reason for him to do that is that he didn't feel welcome in the party anymore.

Think, EB sees that he/blue dogs have lost their leverage/power and are no longer relevent to the body politic.

Read what he actually said, Rob:

"After all these years, my passion for service to my fellow citizens is undiminished, but my desire to do so by serving in Congress has waned. For some time, I have had a growing conviction that Congress is not operating as it should. There is too much partisanship and not enough progress -- too much narrow ideology and not enough practical problem-solving. Even at a time of enormous challenge, the peoples' business is not being done.

"Two weeks ago, the Senate voted down a bipartisan commission to deal with one of the greatest threats facing our nation: our exploding deficits and debt. The measure would have passed, but seven members who had endorsed the idea instead voted "no" for short-term political reasons.

"Just last week, a major piece of legislation to create jobs -- the public's top priority -- fell apart amid complaints from both the left and right."

He's fed up with the entire Congress, and specifically calls out seven Republicans who endorsed the deficit commission and then voted no on their own friggin idea strictly for partisan gain.

Read what he actually said, Rob:

Is it possible that a politician said something that he didn't mean? Naahhhhhhhh...

Clearly this move hurts both parties equally, so I'm sure it was just ol' centrist Bayh heading straight down the middle again. No one party hurt more by this move more than the other.

"Fuck you"

#41 | Posted by Rob_The_A_Hole
===================

File date 02/19...
aide states EB did not tell HR until after the public announcement...

Is it possible that a politician said something that he didn't mean?

So your mind reading -- "this announcement was nothing short of a 'Fuck you' to Democrats" -- is accurate but his actual words are probably a lie? Funny.

Actions speak louder than words... he can say he's tired of partisan politics or whatever, but his actions are the equivalent of a prison rape against the DNC.

Bayh called Obama to tell him he wasn't running again, didn't call Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid... Do you really have to be a mind reader to see what's going on here?

His departure is a blow to the Dems. But it is also a blow to Congress as a whole. Intelligent centrist Senators with willingness to compromise are in short order nowadays.

MODER8 look at the health care bill passed by the Senate Dems. Come on, that bill was so compromised that it was almost worthless. We have plenty of Democrats willing to compromise, unfortunately we don't have enough willing to stand up for principle.

I disagree Danni. I think the healthcare bill they passed should be enacted via reconciliation. It is a starting point that gets the door open. It can be tinkered with and perfected. But something generally of this nature needs to be enacted to truly get the ball rolling.

Whether or not you think the bill is a good one, it was still the results of much compromise. Also, I still support the passage of the bill though I think it is a far cry from what we really need. It is really a perfect example of what millions of lobbyist dollars can do to Congress.

I disagree Danni. I think the healthcare bill they passed should be enacted via reconciliation.

Quick question on reconciliation... if the Democrats are able to "tinker" with it with only 51 votes, couldn't the GOP "tinker" with it too once they eventually get back the majority (as both parties eventually do)?

And if yes, aren't you guys a little worried about that? Sorta like all this talk lately about ending the filibuster... you realize majorities are never permanent right?

Rob: Good point. Frankly, my belief based on listening to left leaning pundits is that the bill will end up saving the Federal Government so much money over the mid and lnog term that any future tinkering by the GOP will be around the edges. (Strengthening tort reform and so forth.) The fact is, we pay more for healthcare per capita than any developed nation on Earth. It is in the financial best interests of America to enact certain basic reform.

"And if yes, aren't you guys a little worried about that?"

Not me, the Republicans will do what they want when/if they regain the majority regardless of what Democrats do now. It is naive to believe that restraint on the part of Dems now will be repaid by restraint on the part of Republicans later.

Reconciliation means there is a sunset date in the future--forcing another vote to keep it going.

And they can only vote for taxing and appropriations issues.

Nothing on the social issues that most people agree on--like no exclusions allowed, etc.

reconciliation...it's dead...the House will not vote for the bill, they do not have a guarantee the Senate will/can fix the bill...they are not going home to ads of them supporting the Nelson/Landrieu give away.

I find it interesting that after so many years of repug control and failure that the mantra is still partisanship that dems have caused the problems and are the "enemy".

The true enemy of the people and our govt of, by and for the people are corporations and their monetary influence and lobbyists. How hard would it be to simply legislate MONEY out of our election systems?????

If the tea party and repugs really wanted to defend America from our enemies, they would stop talking partisan politics and begin speaking about our true enemies....corporations and lobbyists and money influencing elections
Instead, as during Clinton's tenure, the repugs are totally focused ONLY on villifying over half of Americans and the dem party........

When and if they do regain control of congress, we can count on such things as spending $70 million of taxpayer money for bogus investigations of our own potus, with zero indictments resulting....But that won't stop them...as it didn't stop them when they weren't able to gain indictments on any of the 11 bogus investigations of Clinton....

Think of what message was sent to al queda after the 93 WTC attack, when the repugs gained the congress and instead of going after al queda/taleban, went after our own potus!!!!

Likewise, hallichainy might want to realize that continually attacking this admin as being soft on al queda cannot help keep us safe.....anymore than focusing on pnac/preordained neocon agenda and an invasion of iraqnam kept us safe in 2001.....

Compare and contrast how the repugs went after Clinton in the 90's as if he was our enemy, AFTER we were attacked barely a month after Clinton's inauguration......with the 90% approval ratings afforded bush after 911.....

Why is it that the repugs cannot get behind our potus in times of war and economic crisis?

gop=party over country

As for Mr. Bayh--since the left wing of the Dem party is calling the shots--there will be gridlock.

He is tired of it--as are many many other congress people on both sides of the aisle.

And in November we should see many incumbants thrown to the streets.

Bayh had a 20 point lead on everyone, but so did Coakley before she lost to Brown.

"And in November we should see many incumbants thrown to the streets."

And tossed to the wolves from great heights.
And fed to the fish at terrible depths.
And dropped in the alligator farm from runaway helicopters.
And torn to pieces by wild beasts in their deep, dark pits.
And...
And...

Wet yet, Murky?

gop=party over country

and oh, yeah, if you got nuthin new to say, stfu...eh?

#62 | Posted by woke at 2009-11-03 04:00 PM |

"As for Mr. Bayh--since the left wing of the Dem party is calling the shots--there will be gridlock."

Earth to Murphy....GNOPers have made gridlock their strategy for 2010.

The fact is, we pay more for healthcare per capita than any developed nation on Earth.

I agree with so much of what's in the bill, but then the Democrats had to bring their ideology of redistribution of wealth into it, and are trying to fuck with how much doctors get paid. I talk to surgeons everyday... they hate insurance companies, they hate the bullshit they have to go through everyday but I have yet to meet a surgeon that thinks this bill should pass, and its because it fucks with their pay. There was no need for that to be in the bill, but it is, and I personally hope the whole damn thing is dead.

Earth to Danni--the Dems have had the majority in both the House and the Senate and caused their own gridlock with the left wing policies pushed by Pelosi and Reid and Obama.

reconciliation...it's dead...the House will not vote for the bill, they do not have a guarantee the Senate will/can fix the bill...they are not going home to ads of them supporting the Nelson/Landrieu give away.

#56 | POSTED BY MMIKE

Your lips to God's ears... here's hoping.

" left wing policies"

Riiight. The health care reform bill could hardly be called left wing.
Was the deficit commission too left wing for you too???
GNOPers are even against the things they proposed in the first place.

Rob, explain how surgeon's pay is in the bill, clue me in here.

"Frankly, my belief based on listening to left leaning pundits is that the bill will end up saving the Federal Government so much money over the mid and lnog term..."

If you really believe that, I'd like to talk to you about a beautiful piece of land I have for sale just East of Miami.

60

Didja miss the rest of the post which detailed the FACTS surrounding the conclusion?

Nope, you wouldn't wanna do that and disturb your partisanship that creates faux enemies like the dems and myself...eh?

giant global corporations, bankers, lobbyists=these are the enemies of our govt/country....

but somehow, you believe it to be dems...

and me...eh?

When two people argue, the bystander takes advantage.
Confucious

but somehow, you believe it to be dems...

...And republiscans. YOu got it half right which is pretty fucking good for you!

Rob, explain how surgeon's pay is in the bill, clue me in here.

#66 | POSTED BY DANNI

Well for starters you might want to look into the Independent Payment Advisory Board.

Then you can also find in the bill that Primary Care docs who refer patients to specialists will have their reimbursement rates docked by around 5%. As well as just an overall reimbursement rate cut to specialists across the board.

There is a reason why the American College of Surgeons and 18 other specialty groups are against the bill. It ain't cuz they're obstructionist Republicans, its because this bill fucks with their pay and doesn't address lawsuits and malpractice costs.

The public knows who to blame for gridlock...

There definitely needs to be some reform regarding health care/insurance but to "reform" our system as radically as the recent proposals have been is crazy. Do we REALLY want to be another Canada, Britain, Germany?

My heart does not bleed for surgeons. I do not weep if they only make $300,000 a year instead of $600,000. Rather, my concern is for the @ forty million Americans who are unable to get health insurance. My concern is for all Americans who pay far more for healthcare than pretty much the rest of the world. Screw the greedy surgeons. If they don't want to do the job, go into a different field. Many other people will be more than happy to take their place.

On a personal note, I have seen this phenomena so many times throughout my life. An elite group feels it can't be replaced so it tries to throw it weight around. I think Reagan handled it best with the airflight controllers back in the '80s. He fired 'em all and hired new people. Planes did not start falling out of the sky. Also, some years back, a bunch of public defenders thought they couldn't be replaced so they tried to bully the county into making concessions. The county basically said, 'take what we are offering or leave, cuz you CAN be replaced.' And although the surgeons in their arrogance may not believe, the same is true of them as well.

"The American College of Surgeons has asked the group "Rethink Reform" to to remove the college's name from a scrolling list of "Doctors Against the Plan" in an ad that says doctors "understand that under the proposed rules there will be longer waiting times and rationing of care for seniors."

Your lips to God's ears... here's hoping.

#64 | Posted by Rob_The_A_Hole

Maybe I'm wrong Rob, but my impression from your arguments are that your motives for opposition to current legislation are mostly selfish. I think you're more worried about the loss of potential future income to yourself and your family because your wife is a specialist, then you are about what's best for the country as a whole.

#73 | Posted by moder8 at 2010-02-15 03:17 PM | Reply

Who gives a shit if some low life that can't afford a real atty gets stuck with some law school bottom dweller as his Public Defender?

Surgeons actually require skill, unlike some tool PD.

"Do we REALLY want to be another Canada, Britain, Germany?

CAnada or Germany probably yes, Britain not so much but then the proposal is absolutely nothing like the British system, very little like the Canadian system and much like the system passed in Mass.

Earth to Danni--the Dems have had the majority in both the House and the Senate and caused their own gridlock with the left wing policies pushed by Pelosi and Reid and Obama.

#63 | Posted by MURPHY
=========

AF was sworn in 07/07/09...that's 1/2 year of no go in the Senate and 1/2 year of give aways.

"Who gives a shit if some low life that can't afford a real atty gets stuck with some law school bottom dweller as his Public Defender?"

Only someone burdened with the naive belief that we actully do want justice.

My heart does not bleed for surgeons. I do not weep if they only make $300,000 a year instead of $600,000

And there's won't bleed for you. Do you honestly think Surgeons are going to willingly take a $300K paycut without repercussions to the people of this country? They'll cut back their patients, they'll switch to cash only, they'll go to other countries, they'll flat out retire.

It takes 4 years of college (loans), 4 of medical school (more loans) and then anywhere from 3-6 years to go through residency (salary < $60K, then at least of year of fellowship (salary < $60K) before you can even become a first year attending making the big money. You think people are going to go through all that if people keep fucking with how much you make?

Hope you have a lot of cash and high limits on your credit cards... cuz pay up front healthcare is coming quickly. What are you going to do? Not pay for your kid's operation?

Wait a minute. You are comparing air traffic controllers to surgeons. How many years to air traffic controllers spend learning their craft.

"Earth to Danni--the Dems have had the majority in both the House and the Senate and caused their own gridlock with the left wing policies pushed by Pelosi and Reid and Obama."

Earth to Murhpy, the Democrats have not had a filibuster proof majority unless you consider Joe Lieberman a Democrat which he is not. He defeated a Democrat in his last election.

"You think people are going to go through all that if people keep fucking with how much you make?"

If we look to other nations we can clearly see that surgeons will work for far less. Not saying they should but you say they will go to other countries, in most other countries they will earn far less.

"CAnada or Germany probably yes, Britain not so much but then the proposal is absolutely nothing like the British system, very little like the Canadian system and much like the system passed in Mass."

It's obvious you didn't read the stats in the article. Otherwise, WHY would you want to be like Canada or germany?

Maybe I'm wrong Rob, but my impression from your arguments are that your motives for opposition to current legislation are mostly selfish. I think you're more worried about the loss of potential future income to yourself and your family because your wife is a specialist, then you are about what's best for the country as a whole.

#75 | POSTED BY WHATSLEFT

NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! Ya think?

4 years of college, 4 years of medical school, 6 years of low paying 80-100 hours a week residency, 1 year of low paying high hours fellowship... all totaling around $150,000 in debt and you think I'm going to be cool with you queers fucking with our pay? Fuck off with your "we are the world" ideology.

You can also try to individualize this to just me but here's a letter from 19 specialist groups to Harry Reid telling him they don't support this bill.

Earth to Murhpy, the Democrats have not had a filibuster proof majority unless you consider Joe Lieberman a Democrat which he is not. He defeated a Democrat in his last election.

#82 | Posted by danni

He is no a Dem; Neither is Bernie Sanders. He is a socilaist. Lieberman does caucus with the Dems though. He is only not a Dem because the DNC supported Lamont, the blunt smoker over him

I disagreee 101. Surgeons are replaceable. Doctors throughout the world with training as good as anything in the US are eager to come here. Also, not all American surgeons are as greedy as the ones sounding off the loudest. Also, when push comes to shove, even the loudest most sniveling surgeons would gladly continue working even at a reduced rate, if the alternative for the vast majority of them was to no longer be making several hundred thousand dollars a year.

As for your cheap shot about PDs, lol. I know, and the judges knows, and the DAs know, that here in California most of the very best criminal defense attorneys are in the PDs office. In fact, a large percentage of private criminal defense attorneys are failed PDs who were fired. The best and most dedicated (the "true believers")tend to remain. Truth. Careful what you wish for...

If we look to other nations we can clearly see that surgeons will work for far less.

Did they start out making $300, 400, 500+ a year and then asked to take substantial pay cuts?

How would you guys respond if the Federal Government came into your office and said, "Oh you can take a 50% cut in pay, you'll be fine... do it for the good of America." You'd tell them to go fuck themselves just as fast as the all these doctors did.

Surgeons are replaceable.

Sure... after 14+ years of school and training. Good luck with your bone cancers until then.

Earth to Murhpy, the Democrats have not had a filibuster proof majority unless you consider Joe Lieberman a Democrat which he is not. He defeated a Democrat in his last election.

#82 | Posted by danni

There were no filibusters in 2009.

Mike--

They had 60 votes in the senate and they blew off Brown in MA.

Then reality came and bit them in the ass as Coakley lost.

The HC bill is a monster and hopefully dead.

They can pass a bill from scratch--start over with the things they agree on.

Without the bribes..

Doctors throughout the world with training as good as anything in the US are eager to come here.

Doctors from other countries have to go through the American Residency program before they're allowed to practice in the United States.

Sorry but doctors throughout the world do NOT get the equivalent training. Compare a surgeon in Pakistan to one at Mt. Sinai. They did not receive the same training and the results will be different.

I would rather defend myself than use a PD.

""Oh you can take a 50% cut in pay, you'll be fine... do it for the good of America.""

Are you claiming the federal government is telling surgeons they will lose 50% of their incomes???
Or are you just using that number for argument's sake?

Are you claiming the federal government is telling surgeons they will lose 50% of their incomes???
Or are you just using that number for argument's sake?

#94 | POSTED BY DANNI

I was basing that off of moder8 saying:

My heart does not bleed for surgeons. I do not weep if they only make $300,000 a year instead of $600,000

"There were no filibusters in 2009."

Only because of the stupid agreement, they don't actually filibuster anything, they just threaten to and if there aren't sixty votes the matter is tabled. It works out to the same thing.

"I was basing that off of moder8 saying:"

OK, but realistically what percent do doctors and surgeons expect this bill will effect their incomes?

re: There were no filibusters in 2009.

#90 | Posted by JaySherman at 2010-02-15 03:29 PM | Reply | Flag:

That's in the running for the most stupid comment I've read today, and the competition is fierce.

In most cases, the threat of a filibuster is sufficient, and due to the fucked-up rules of the senate and the wholesale obstructionism of the Republicans it is now considered a truism that 60 votes are required to order coffee.

For those not inclined to seek information for themselves, allow me to make this easily available to you. In light of these stats, WHY would we want to emulate Canada or England? Maybe Michael Moore would prefer to seek treatment under the system in Cuba but I like it here better.

"Percentage of men and women who survived a cancer five years after diagnosis: U.S. 65 percent, Eng-land 46 percent, Canada 42 percent.

Percentage referred to a medical specialist who see one within one month: U.S. 77 percent, England 40 percent, Canada 43 percent."

"The initial conclusion from this report is that the U.S. has the best health care in the world. But cost and availability remain problems.

Released from many of the existing government restrictions and controls, these can most rapidly be improved by private enterprise, where there are the profit incentive and the threat of failure.

Health care will only be damaged, as a Wall Street Journal opinion piece said, "through central planning and price controls that would limit access to care"

More if you care to read:

OK, but realistically what percent do doctors and surgeons expect this bill will effect their incomes?

#97 | POSTED BY DANNI

5-10% probably at most.

Back in Jersey the average pay of an ortho surgeon in private practice was around 400... so that's a $20,000/year pay cut if its at 5%. Along with the increased taxes on top of Americans making more than $250. So at the end of the day its probably more than 10% in total.

Look at all a surgeon goes through to get out on their own and reach their goal of being a board certified surgeon, and then you can see why they are pretty hard against this bill.

"In most cases, the threat of a filibuster is sufficient, and due to the fucked-up rules of the senate and the wholesale obstructionism of the Republicans it is now considered a truism that 60 votes are required to order coffee."

Unfortunately, you are correct...but the word, "Republicans," is easily exchanged with, "Democrats," as I can recall from the past.

"Back in Jersey the average pay of an ortho surgeon in private practice was around 400... so that's a $20,000/year pay cut if its at 5%. Along with the increased taxes on top of Americans making more than $250. So at the end of the day its probably more than 10% in total."

Sorry, but with the hardships most Americans are facing that just doesn't cause me to sympathize.
Our health care system costs too much, there are going to have to be some reductions in cost and doctors earning $400K should feel some of that reduction. IMHO.

#101 Ya think?

The Rise Of Cloture: How GOP Filibuster Threats Have Changed The Senate

While Republicans spent the last several months threatening to filibuster the Democrats' health care reform bill in the Senate, and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid scrambled to secure 60 votes -- only to have the whole fragile arrangement blow up when Republican Scott Brown won the Massachusetts senate election last week -- we kept hearing that the relatively recent rise in filibuster threats was a bipartisan phenomenon. Both parties are guilty of this when they're in the minority, we heard.

It's true that there has been a decades-long uptick in the use of cloture filings -- often to overcome filibuster threats -- by whichever party is in the majority, but the best measurement of that trend shows an explosion since Republicans were consigned to minority status after the 2006 election.

Check this out:

What are you going to do when 240,000 surgeons stop taking insurance?

#85 | Posted by Rob_The_A_Hole

The same thing millions of people are already doing when they hit their insurance cap, or when they can't get insurance because they've been priced out by pre-existing conditions, I'll just die, and make way for the rich patients that can afford your wife's fees.

Of course, in a few years it should be fascinating watching "240,000+ surgeons" scramble for customers in an ever-shrinking base of wealthy patients.

A Ph.D in in Chemistry works just as long and just as hard as a surgeon. Yet they don't typically make a third as much money. Nor do Admirals in the Navy. Nor engineers who design car safety features. All these professions play a huge impact on our safety or health. What is so magical and mystical about surgeons that they above all others deserve outrageously high salaries? It is bullshit. It is unrestrained capitalism at it's worst.

Our health care system costs too much, there are going to have to be some reductions in cost and doctors earning $400K should feel some of that reduction. IMHO.

#102 | POSTED BY DANNI

Its an opinion that a lot of people share I'm sure, but I think the people with this opinion are going to be the first ones crying when doctors retire, leave, or stop taking any insurance.

Doctors get paid that much because what they do is difficult to learn and takes over a decade of training.

"Its an opinion that a lot of people share I'm sure, but I think the people with this opinion are going to be the first ones crying when doctors retire, leave, or stop taking any insurance."

Guess we'll be opening up our borders and putting up a sign....doctors wanted. I'm quite sure some Cuban physicians would be willing to relocate.

I realize a lot of people seem to put medical doctors on some type of altar. Maybe it is this elevated perception of them that justifies their outrageous salaries in the minds of many 'commoners'.

A Ph.D in in Chemistry works just as long and just as hard as a surgeon

You are out of your mind.

Yet they don't typically make a third as much money.

Yes, the guy in a lab who made my shampoo help get my hair more manageable should get $450K a year... of course then the Dems would say we need soap reform and knock his salary down.

What is so magical and mystical about surgeons that they above all others deserve outrageously high salaries?

They aren't the only ones in this country making outrageous salaries. What about these ultra rich partners in law firms charging thousands of dollars an hour? Why aren't you beating them up for how much they make? Couldn't they "get by" at only $250K a year like you want of surgeons? Shouldn't all people have access to the best attorneys, like you want all people to have access to the best doctors?

Guess we'll be opening up our borders and putting up a sign....doctors wanted. I'm quite sure some Cuban physicians would be willing to relocate.

#107 | POSTED BY DANNI A

And again, at least with surgeons you have to go through the American residency program. That's anywhere from 3-6 years before you can practice on your own.

If doctors want to retain their high incomes they ought to realize patients and doctors are on one side of the health care debate but inurance companies are on the other side. They contriubute no services, cure no one but suck out of the system a large portion of our health care dollars. Eliminate the greedy leeches and there would be more left over to pay doctors, hospitals, etc. Something has to give though, most Americans are about tapped out. I think it is only a matter of time before employers start eliminating insurance in droves. Doctors are going to discover that when that happens many or most of their patients won't be able to pay. Sorry, I won't be sympathizing with those who joined with the insurance companies to kill real health care reform with a public option.

Admiral Tom Boone from the USS Seahawk once said that doctors in the Navy saved my life when I flew off the USS Ticonderoga. I don't think he would object to surgeons making good money

"And again, at least with surgeons you have to go through the American residency program."

That's how it is now, if we have to we'll change it.

A surgeon literally cuts you open, fixes whats wrong with you, closes you up and you go on your way better than when you walked in.

Really why aren't you bashing the salaries of big time lawyers?

What is so magical and mystical about surgeons that they above all others deserve outrageously high salaries?

Our lives are in their hands.

Also, supply and demand.

"I don't think he would object to surgeons making good money"

The doctors who saved him were military officers earning a small pittance compared to what Rob is talking about.

Actually, I am offended by the outrageous salaries and bonuses of CEOs. Similar to surgeons, they too are an example of capitalism run amok. And most Americans agree with that notion and share the outrage at the outrageous compensation so many CEOs receive. Also, to earn a Ph.D in Chemistry on average requires about ten years of post graduate study. About the same as for surgeons. And these same chemists are primarily responsible for developing the drugs used by surgeons and all other medical doctors.

"You are out of your mind."

Gotta agree. First a surgeon must do something akin to a double PhD in chemistry and biology, the MD, then learn how to perform what is, in fact, an art.

Then said surgeon's success depends on his/her body holding together long enough for a career.

If anything surgeons at public hospitals are underpaid

That's how it is now, if we have to we'll change it.

#113 | POSTED BY DANNI

You still haven't passed healthcare reform.

And you honestly think Hospitals will be the ones firing all the doctors they've educated and trained? Newsflash Danni, what you pay a doctor doesn't go straight to the MD... it also covers the costs of the rooms, the nursing staff, the OR Techs, the lights, the equipment, the heating and air conditioning.

LOL... you guys aren't thinking this through. You just see a high salary and attach your socialist sense of "we all should make the same wage" nonsense.

The best part is with a doctor in the family the huge hit you guys are going to take won't really effect me, and I'll be laughing quite hard.

"It is bullshit. It is unrestrained capitalism at it's worst."

Man, ain't THAT the truth. The fact that some guy who flunked out or dropped out of school and makes MILLIONS throwing a ball through a hoop is a perfect example of MORE unrestrained capitalism. The gubmint oughta do somethin' about that...right? What about them guys and gals who barely finished high school makin' millions doin' movies out in Hollywood. Shouldn't those folks have some limits on all them millions they're pullin' in? Rap stars, singers, all that unrestrained capitlaism is mind boggling, ain't it. Of course, all this is NUTHIN' compared to that unrestrained capitalism practiced by those doctors.

I had a (late) friend who was a surgeon.

Until he went blind.

Zat, my bro is a big time doc. After residency at UCLA he was practicing by the age of 32. My former bro-in-law is a big time chemist. He got his Ph.D. in advanced chemistry from Berkeley at age 31. What is the big difference? (About half a million dollars a year. No bullshit.)

"I don't think he would object to surgeons making good money"

The doctors who saved him were military officers earning a small pittance compared to what Rob is talking about.

#116 | Posted by danni

Just a piece of history. Admiral Tom Boone served with Lt. Harmon Rabb Sr. when he was a pilot on the USS Tconderoga

"You just see a high salary and attach your socialist sense of "we all should make the same wage" nonsense."

Baloney. I expect doctors and especially surgeons to earn a very nice living but by the same token our health care system is broken. Changes are going to have to be made. I can't predict what they will be, whether we continue with the idiotic insurance based system or get smarter and pass single payer....time will tell but one thing is certain, we are at a point that we can't continue to increase the percentage of GDP that flows into health care. Doctors are one part of it, I would think that savings are going to have to be found all through the entire system.
You seem to want to make this into a simplistic ideological argument but sorry I'm must not that simple minded.

Actually, I am offended by the outrageous salaries and bonuses of CEOs.

What about lawyers. IMO its unfair that some Americans can only get a public defender and others can afford the likes of Johnny Cochran. So what we need is Legal Defense reform.

All Lawyers that were making hundreds of thousands or more a year, now make $78,999. And they're not allowed to turn away that is in need of legal counsel, whether they can afford it or not. Oh and if they're an illegal immigrant who definitely can't pay, the lawyer has to drop all he's doing and bump Pedro right to the top of the list.

What is the big difference?

One brother holds other people's lives in his hands

You seem to want to make this into a simplistic ideological argument but sorry I'm must not that simple minded.

#125 | POSTED BY DANNI

Actually it is that simple. In America, the quickest way to hit a wall of resistance is to fuck with people's pay.

If every group representing doctors was on board with this plan it would have been tough to stand in its way. But they fucked with their money, and that was just another brick in the wall that knocked the DNC on its ass (at least for the moment).

"Just a piece of history. Admiral Tom Boone served with Lt. Harmon Rabb Sr. when he was a pilot on the USS Tconderoga"

You're dating yourself. I served on some of her sister ships and transferred gear from the USS Kearsarge to the Ticonderoga on the other side of the pier when Kearsarge was decommissioning in Long Beach.

Isn't the Ticonderoga a cruiser? CG-47?

Nevermind... it was a carrier... and is now a cruiser.

"But they fucked with their money, and that was just another brick in the wall that knocked the DNC on its ass (at least for the moment)"

er...perhaps because the whole point is to reduce the cost of health care. Who should sacrifice to bring down the cost of health care Rob??? Anyone???

Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Bill Lear and Thomas Edison are all dropouts.

Where I work the football coach makes $5mil.

The exact degree doesn't matter.

Surgeons are like pilots, if the body don't work they're fucked. And when you hire cheap pilots people die.

"Isn't the Ticonderoga a cruiser? CG-47?"

It wasn't a cruiser in the 50's and 60's. Neither was the Kearsarge.

These folks that are bailing realize that things are deteriorating in this country---being in congress was fun and games when Americans were asleep and not holding their representatives accountable for some of the really stupid things they were doing and some of the legitimate things they should have been doing---things are no longer fun and games---reality is hitting and the folks staying are going to start to have to act like adults and it's going to be hard work for the first time in years. Forget about healthcare containing all kinds of nice frills and/or other nice programs---those days are over---it is going to become about cost cutting and living in a budget--also will have to mean higher taxes (which should involve all Americans)--includes Europe as well---the money will no longer be there for people sitting on their rearends and all those nice social programs--the people leaving realize this and don't want to be a part of a process that's going to be painful.

"And when you hire cheap pilots people die."

Yet we allow airlines to do exactly that.

"Surgeons are like pilots, if the body don't work they're fucked. And when you hire cheap pilots people die."

Amen!

"Surgeons are like pilots, if the body don't work they're fucked. And when you hire cheap pilots people die."

Amen!

Surgeons are also like CEOs. In Japan the CEOs of very successful companies earn a fraction of what the CEOs of marginally successful companies make here. Compensation is not necessarily related to expertise or competence. I'm not so sure anyone "earns" $600,000 per year.

re: also will have to mean higher taxes

You just removed the last standing leg of the Republican Party platform.

The doctors who saved him were military officers earning a small pittance compared to what Rob is talking about.

#116 | Posted by danni at 2010-02-15 03:59 PM | Reply

I may be wrong on some points, but not all...
-The military surgeons make decent coin.
-They have their school loans paid off by the government
-They gain invaluable experience for when they "quit", retire, etc that will drastically increase their pay
-They get paid even more for volunteering to become "flight surgeons"

Pretending as if a Military Surgeon is in any way, shape, or form hurting for cash is wrong. They are in most cases setting themselves up for very large paydays and insulating themselves from the insurance and school loans civilian doctors pay.

Military Lawyers get good deals as well.

"I'm not so sure anyone "earns" $600,000 per year."

Kobe Bryant does, J-Lo does, Barbara Streisand does, Sean penn does....none of that bothers you though...right? If you say, "yes," and you want to limit their pay you know what that makes you?

Seems like a lot of people choose to worship at the altar of MD. Obviously I won't dissuade any of you. I think it is bullshit that so many of you seem to hold the financial well being of doctors at such a magical high level of esteem that the physical well being of tens of millions of ordinary Americans be damned.

No job, be it doctor, lawyer, business person or athlete should be paid so much such that the physical well being of millions of other Americans are placed at risk. You can call that the Moder8 Doctrine.

"Kobe Bryant does, J-Lo does, Barbara Streisand does, Sean penn does....none of that bothers you though...right?"

I understand they are compensated hugely, but I was referring to what is the real definition of "earn."

You just see a high salary and attach your socialist sense of "we all should make the same wage" nonsense."

Baloney. I expect doctors and especially surgeons to earn a very nice living but by the same token our health care system is broken. Changes are going to have to be made. I can't predict what they will be, whether we continue with the idiotic insurance based system or get smarter and pass single payer....time will tell but one thing is certain, we are at a point that we can't continue to increase the percentage of GDP that flows into health care. Doctors are one part of it, I would think that savings are going to have to be found all through the entire system.
You seem to want to make this into a simplistic ideological argument but sorry I'm must not that simple minded.

#125 | Posted by danni

Everybody will be effected---certain physicians like femily practitioners, pediatricians, some internists don't make that much money comparatively but specialists (I call them technicians) in many instances could make less. College football coaches are way overpaid, many business executives are way overpaid. We should institute an English system in some lawsuits that you lose, you pay---there are so many areas of our society that needs to be brought back to reality.

Kobe Bryant does, J-Lo does, Barbara Streisand does, Sean penn does....none of that bothers you though...right? If you say, "yes," and you want to limit their pay you know what that makes you?

#142 | Posted by jestgettinalong at 2010-02-15 04:20 PM | Reply | Flag:

Um...a team owner, a music industry lawyer, or a Hollywood executive?

Amazing to read that doctors should have unlimited earning potential presented by those who also contend that they should be protected from liability law suits. If they are so talented, educated, if they are worth such princely sums then they should also be liable for any mistakes they make.

Then I guess people of few means should just die from lack of surgery when there is no "cheap" alternative.

Perhaps medical schools should start admitting students with a desire to heal instead of just to earn big bucks.

141 | Posted by 101Chairborne

And the increased pay and training is incentive for someone to volunteer. Many do and are not accepted for one reason or another. As much as a lot of our little leftist/socialist friends "hate" money, it is a big incentive to most people in the world. I suspect our little friends don't really hate it so much as they hate the "struggle" to earn it when they can just get the government to take it away from those who do earn it and give it to them.

If they are so talented, educated, if they are worth such princely sums then they should also be liable for any mistakes they make.

#148 | Posted by danni at 2010-02-15 04:24 PM | Reply

You realize somebody that makes $6/hr is saying the same thing about you and your $9/hr, right?

You should pay out of pocket for that batch of fries you over-cooked, or that $3.09 your drawer was short.

Watching the "have nots" covet what the "Haves" have is hilarious, and typical of the DR Left's mindset.

"And again, at least with surgeons you have to go through the American residency program."

That's how it is now, if we have to we'll change it.

#113 | Posted by danni at 2010-02-15 03:58 PM

"Perhaps medical schools should start admitting students with a desire to heal instead of just to earn big bucks."

Get real....most would start going to law school instead.

101-
Why do I get the feeling that you collect a gov't pension/retirement, social security, or benefit from medicare?

I'm sure I'm wrong, so set me straight.

Surgeons are also like CEOs. In Japan the CEOs of very successful companies earn a fraction of what the CEOs of marginally successful companies make here. Compensation is not necessarily related to expertise or competence. I'm not so sure anyone "earns" $600,000 per year.

#139 | Posted by danni

So many highly compensated people in our society today are not compensated based on results but perception and the fact they exist in a certain type of job---how many people get a degree and then are paid a certain amount for that degree but yet are awful in their jobs---I was with a young man today who works his rearend off (clamming) and the work is physically difficult as heck (and don't tell me if he wants to earn more, he should get a degree--has a college degree)--I'll stack him up against a lot of people making big bucks that make money not because they're competent but because that particular job pays X amount of money. We've got our priorities so screwwed up in this country it's going to take years straightening things out.

Boyd,
Seriously, you don't troll, you aren't funny, you never make a point, you rarely if ever make a declaritive statement, and you're a total sally.
Besides names, what do you add to this place?

In other words, if you think I'm going to ever address you or reply to you in a serious manner you're even more fucking stupid than I had originally thought.

I only take one member of the BarneyBoyd clan seriously, but you don't like when we bring her up.

This is just getting to be laughable and... well... pathetic. This is a message to ANYONE currently in office. If you're a crooked jackass who's more interested in being a "jersey" Democrat or Republican... please follow the lead of these other A-Holes and quit now. Save yourself and jump ship along with the other rats.

I can't tell if these morons are just cowards or if the Democrat party is asking them to quit in the hopes of retaining seats due to a simple name change.

Of course, who should be surprised when Democrats have always shown a yaller streak when it comes to conflicts. Thank God Almighty these people were not in congress during WWI or WWII... we'd all be speaking German.

Either way... this is getting to be ridiculous.

"Perhaps medical schools should start admitting students with a desire to heal instead of just to earn big bucks."

That's the dumbest thing I've ever read. Do you even know how much it cost to go to medical school??? Do you know how much it cost to pay back those student loans??? Do you know how much it costs to start a practice??? Do you know how much it costs to protect themselves legally??? There are plenty of Doctors who volunteer their services that never get credit.

Danni: Excellent newsworthy post #148. The rightwing argument against limiting doctor's salary does seem to mitigate against their argument for tort reform. Ironic...

"Why do I get the feeling that you collect a gov't pension/retirement,..."

What's wrong with that? If he's retired military hasn't he earned a pension from his employer? AND...one of the benefits of his employment was a health plan that he could take into retirement too. That was promised from the beginning as compensation for collecting lower pay than civilian industries for those working years. However, his employer reneged on the promise and now he had to pay for Champus/Tricare until age 65 and now may be paying for Medicare Part B just like any other senior citizen who never served. I bet you have no argument with the UAW or other lucrative retirement and health plans, do you?

I presume you folks whining about what a doctor makes and think that the government should interfere in free market salaries agree that your hollywood mouthpieces should also be told what they should earn. Will Smith can command $20,000,000 for a film that might take 3 months to make. Annualized that's $80,000,000/yr, or 160x what a high priced surgeon makes.

Will you be consistent, moder-h8? Will you say that Hollywood actors make way too much and demand that the government put caps on their salaries, too? I mean, these guys don't even hold lives in their hands like surgeons, yet make scads more. They don't have to wait until they are 32 YO to ply their trade. They can be HS dropouts even.

Is this fair? Should Uncle Sam step in?

I cut out my own bone cancers. Do my own radiation therapy too with a piece of cobalt. You don't want to know what I use for chemo.

- Gitmboy

I mean, these guys don't even hold lives in their hands like surgeons...

You have a point there. It puts a new spin on offhand daily comments such as "I'm dying to see that new movie with Will Smith..."

"The rightwing argument against limiting doctor's salary does seem to mitigate against their argument for tort reform. Ironic..."

"Tort reform" doesn't mean that doctors (or any defendant) shouldn't be liable for actual damages. It just means that there should be SOME kind of rule in terms of "punitive" damages. For instance, awarding a plaintiff multimillions for a surgical scar on his butt would be outrageous. That's not to say something like the loss of a limb due to error shouldn't be highly "punitive."

I presume you folks whining about what a doctor makes and think that the government should interfere in free market salaries agree that your hollywood mouthpieces should also be told what they should earn. Will Smith can command $20,000,000 for a film that might take 3 months to make. Annualized that's $80,000,000/yr, or 160x what a high priced surgeon makes.

Will you be consistent, moder-h8? Will you say that Hollywood actors make way too much and demand that the government put caps on their salaries, too? I mean, these guys don't even hold lives in their hands like surgeons, yet make scads more. They don't have to wait until they are 32 YO to ply their trade. They can be HS dropouts even.

Is this fair? Should Uncle Sam step in?

The health care system in the US is JUST LIKE Hollywood and various widget markets. If you can pay, you play. Nothing wrong with that. No reform needed. We just need to ensure hat those superior beings, as evidenced by superior health care or the most wealth, get the preferred access to the new Will Smith movie.

Haven't any of you taken econ101 or read Ayn Rand and then just stopped right there?

166

Sorry, but i have to respond to this strawman argument.

Just one question Goatman.

Does not paying for to a movie create a situation where someone loses their home, their lives, their children's lives?

See the difference between NECESSITIES of LIFE and wants?

Think someone can have life, liberty and pursuit of happiness without movies?

How about without healthcare?

Woke-
I'm guessing Goatman has good health insurance, or thinks he does, and so is glib with the analogy of avoiding death in a desperate struggle for treatment to passing entertainment on a random Friday night.

It's really amazing to watch people fight over class warfare--It appears that Obama is winning that issue.

Kinda' like the saudi's or the paki's who blame others to keep the people from thinking about what the real problems are and who to blame.
----------

I just reviewed a medical file of a man who had neck surgery following a car accident.

The time in the hospital was 10 days.

The doctor who did the surgery charged over 29k to do the surgery.

The anesthesiologist charged over 4200.

The friggin hospital charged over $233,000!!

Yup--they charged over 4,000 just for '6 gowns'--that pos pj they call a gown cost that much.

The insurance company cut the bill more than 140k and paid the hospital.

Murphy-
Did you have a point?

Nice strawman, woke. Doesn't fly of course. We were talking about the government mandating salaries, not L,L, & TPOH.

Yeah--all the class warfare to cut the doctors' pay or not--and the doctors are not the problem.

All the class warfare to attack the CEO's and the banks and the auto industry and the unions--and the pick your favorite flavor of the day...

It's all bullshit.

And the Dems HC bill is a pos--it's a massive take over of our lives and 1/6th of the economy and it won't even solve the problems that people are bitching about.

But hey! It sure lined the pockets of your XYZ congress person!

I have no interest in seeing physicians' income reduced by gov't mandate, but there is something seriously wrong with the health care system in the US. There is also something seriously wrong with people in the US who compare access to live-saving treatment to access to watching a movie.

Seriously fucked-up.

All the class warfare to attack the CEO's and the banks and the auto industry and the unions--and the pick your favorite flavor of the day...

I'm confused. Is it "class warfare", in your opinion, to attack the unions?

I'm guessing Goatman has good health insurance, or thinks he does, and so is glib with the analogy of avoiding death in a desperate struggle for treatment to passing entertainment on a random Friday night.

So we'll add boy(d) to the list of those who see problem with a HS dropout making a hundred times more than someone who holds your very life in his hands, went to school and interneship 14 years to do so and has hundreds of thousands in student loans to be repaid.

Got you on that list, boy(d). (it's subtitled "stupid control freaks")

MURPHY

Hospital billed items like "Mucous extraction device" are outrageous. Guess what it is - for hundreds of dollars over a stay of 3 days? A box of Kleenex! For someone in a coma no less.

BTW, the math on the case you gave comes to approximately $1000 an hour for the hospital and, figuring 2 hours for the surgery, $14,500 an hour for the surgeon. Our health care costs in the U.S. have gotten out of hand no matter how you slice it.

As for hospitals themselves; we used to have a nice network of non-profit 'community hospitals'. Thanks to HCA and others like them most have been bought up, torn down, and replaced with shiny glass buildings that are piggy banks for the companies that own them.

Yes Boyd--I attack unions and you attack CEO's--class warfare.

The Moder8 Doctrine stands true. Stop worshipping at the altar or MD. No other nation on Earth does it like we do it here. And other than slavish devotion to capitalist principle, there is no reason for it.

Also, Goatman was being serious in his comparison between medcare and going to a movie. But now that it has been pointed out what a stupid/offensive comparison it is he may now pretend he was just trolling.

re: All the class warfare to attack the CEO's and the banks

You do understand that the risky behavior "the banks" put the world at risk for a global depression to such an extent that they had to be bailed out to the tune of trillions of your money in order for the possibility of your children not collecting aluminum cans as a profession?

"And the Dems HC bill is a pos--it's a massive take over of our lives and 1/6th of the economy"

It is a pos, but the concept they're going to "take over" 1/6th of the economy is a bullshit talking point. 40% of the insured are already currently covered by government, single-payer system. And those are the folks that don't bitch about their coverage or their costs.

Murphy-
I'm guessing you hate the firefighters and police union the most.

Got moder-h8 on that list too as people who think that just because you study hard for 14 years and amass huge debt and hold lives in your hands, you don't deserve to be well compensated.

I don't think I've ever heard anything so ignorant in my life. Therefore, it is no surprise it springs from one of the most ignorant minds I've seen online in my life.

#180 | Posted by BetelG

Yeah--well--the unions have phucked up plenty with their 'greed' and extortion.

Inflated wages, pensions that cannot be sustained in exchange for votes. Putting industries out of business like the auto industry.

See how that works?

As for firefighters and police unions--they have outpriced themselves and been over promised on their pensions.

Talking about prison guards in CA to be specific. They own the state with their pensions and breaking the taxpayer bank.

The average public sector job pays 71k a year and the average private sector job pays 42k a year. Now the average may be less because there are more jobs in the private sector.

But the number of 6 figure public sector jobs are far more than the number in the private sector.

Also, Goatman was being serious in his comparison between medcare and going to a movie.

Your inability to comprehend the written word never ceases to amaze me, moder-h8. I was comparing the salaries of an actor to a doctor's salary. I was not comparing medical care to going to a movie.

What a dumb fuck you are. Honestly, it wasn't that hard to comprehend. What is your problem?

#181 | Posted by Danforth

And please ignore the massive taxes that will be imposed if this HC pos were to pass.

And the medicare cuts...

And it still would not address the costs of insurance.

Everyone is bitching about the bill--including those with health insurance because of the tax hikes and the seniors as they will see rationing due to the cuts proposed.

Murphy-
re: As for firefighters and police unions--they have outpriced themselves and been over promised on their pensions.

So I guess the patriotic homage to them on 9/11 was just so mush fluff. You have now returned to your default position of honoring the well-reimbursed daily sacrifice of Rush Limbaugh to those who actually are willing to die for you, and do on a regular basis.

I find it funny that danni calls good riddance to bad rubbish.....to someone loved by most in his home state, and consistently elected by wide margins!

Yeah fuck them, heh danni?

Goatman: Putting aside the topic of this thread, and really just personal between you and me, all I can say is, I own you. Carry on.

I was comparing the salaries of an actor to a doctor's salary. I was not comparing medical care to going to a movie.

Of course. What insurance do you have again that makes you so completely tone deaf?

"I'm not so sure anyone "earns" $600,000 per year."

For the most part you earn a salary by brining in more than you are paid. If a lawyer who makes $500K a year brings in a million in business he has earned his salary and probably a raise.

That's true of anywhere from minimum wage all the way up.

MURPHY

You still aren't educated over what the proposed changes for Medicare are in the HC bill:

"Medicare ADVANTAGE" - the GOP's 'private' answer to Medicare, is charged 20%+ fees to 'administer'. That's $.20 of EVERY premium dollar into the pockets of the middlemen insurance companies.

Compare that to 2-3% for regular Medicare.

I find it funny that danni calls good riddance to bad rubbish.....to someone loved by most in his home state

Leading by around 20 points in polls against his likely Republican opponents...

What is the big difference?
One brother holds other people's lives in his hands
I don't buy it.

The individual with the single greatest influence over the quality of care you receive in hospital is not a surgeon, doctor, nurse, or tech.

It is the person earning slightly over minimum wage who codes your patient record upon check-in.

Bus drivers hold hundreds or thousands of people's lives in their hands daily, more than a surgeon will likely see in their career. I suppose they should be paid accordingly? How about meat inspectors? Airport security screeners?

Doctors from other countries have to go through the American Residency program before they're allowed to practice in the United States.
That's just evidence of how the AMA has completely fucked the public at large, for the sake of making doctors rich. You know one reason doctors are so highly compensated? Because the supply is kept artificially low by the AMA.

I think most doctors will be fine buying a new Porsche every other year instead of every year. Those who really need the Porsche yearly can put in some overtime.

re: including those with health insurance because of the tax hikes and the seniors as they will see rationing due to the cuts proposed.

#186 | Posted by MURPHY at 2010-02-15 05:39 PM | Reply | Flag:

Have you taken a look at the Republicans' budget authored by Eric Cantor?

It eliminates Medicare entirely.

Google it, Murphy.

Bayh to Obama: take this job and shove it

It is the person earning slightly over minimum wage who codes your patient record upon check-in.

If a person was to make a mistake would you rather it be the persone who codes your patient record, or the surgeon?

That's what I thought.

The individual with the single greatest influence over the quality of care you receive in hospital is not a surgeon, doctor, nurse, or tech.
It is the person earning slightly over minimum wage who codes your patient record upon check-in.

No, its the guy holding the knife, or diagnosing the illness, or prescribing the meds. The doctors.

Bus drivers hold hundreds or thousands of people's lives in their hands daily, more than a surgeon will likely see in their career. I suppose they should be paid accordingly? How about meat inspectors? Airport security screeners?

You I or anyone can become one of those with a week of training. Let's see if you can perform a hip replacement surgery in a week.

That's just evidence of how the AMA has completely fucked the public at large, for the sake of making doctors rich.

You want a doctor trained and certified in Bhutan to be able to land in America and go straight to the OR to perform a heart transplant on a family member of yours? Jackass.

I think most doctors will be fine buying a new Porsche every other year instead of every year.

LOL you flunked your MCATs didn't you? Someone in your family wanted you to be a doctor and you couldn't get into med school? Am I right... in the ballpark?

Bus drivers hold hundreds or thousands of people's lives in their hands daily,

If you read my other post, you would have noted that I said that supply and demand were also factors in their higher salaries. My guess is that it is easier to become a bus driver (hence a higher "supply" in the equation) than a surgeon.

But I could be wrong.

The friggin hospital charged over $233,000!!
...
The insurance company cut the bill more than 140k and paid the hospital.

Yes, that's how the game works. There's a "list price," both parties know it's bullshit, and each insurer negotiates a contract with each hospital, and typically ends up paying about 1/3 the "billed amount."

A major reason our care is so expensive is the exact scenario I just described. So many people arguing over who has to pay the bill, at what discount. It's incredibly time-consuming and costly. (And that's before you bring in the lawsuits.) And all that make-work has fuck-all to do with delivering better health outcomes.

Capitalism, more accurately a profit-driven system, can't and won't ever find an incentive to get over that hurdle, because that's where they make their money. Modern medicine is "socialist," practically by definition, because it relies on epidemiology to determine which interventions yield the best outcomes for populations affected by disease.

But if you didn't understand that last sentence, you likely won't understand just how fucked we are in this country. Until it happens to you or someone you love.

Back to Bayh though, does anyone think this is the end of his career? Bayh will have 8 years of experience as a governor, and 12 years as a senator after his term. I think he wants to be President. What wouldn't shock me is if the next ticket is bipartisan, a Republican at the top and Bayh as the Veep... that would set him up perfectly for his own Presidential run in 2020.

Its such a strange development given his reelection was a lock. A primary challenge in 2012 would probably kill his hopes of being President even if he somehow won. I'm betting he teams up with a GOPer. Its been flirted with for a while now. Someone should do it.

The individual with the single greatest influence over the quality of care you receive in hospital is not a surgeon, doctor, nurse, or tech.
It is the person earning slightly over minimum wage who codes your patient record upon check-in.

No, its the guy holding the knife, or diagnosing the illness, or prescribing the meds. The doctors.
Bullshit. When the guy holding the knife thinks you've got a different blood type, guess what happens?

You want a doctor trained and certified in Bhutan to be able to land in America and go straight to the OR to perform a heart transplant on a family member of yours? Jackass.
No, I'd be fine if the AMA let more Americans go to med school. The demand is there. They limit the supply so they can make more money. It's the opposite of a free market. Actually just about everything about health care in this country is the opposite of a free market. A straight socialist system would be far more transparent than what we've got.

Good riddance.

Ideally all the other rtard Dems would leave as well. Saves progressives from having to make primary challenges.

Ideological clarity between the two parties is a good thing.

No, I'd be fine if the AMA let more Americans go to med school.

Yeah, make it like the NHL where damn near anyone can get on a pro team cuz there's too damn many. Doctors now have to be dedicated and brilliant to get into Med school... those are the people I want operating. Not some guy who got in because a school needed to fill seats and took a less than qualified applicant.

163 | Posted by grumpy_too at 2010-02-15 05:00 PM

ff!

Gitmboy's original post will go down as one of the all time "classics" on DR

Ideological clarity between the two parties is a good thing.

#204 | POSTED BY NULLIFIDIAN

Impossible to have with just 2 parties.

"Impossible to have with just 2 parties."

It's very difficult, Rob. It would much easier with a multi-party system. You want to go to a parlimentary system? Other than that, the only alternative is to sharpen the differences between the 2 major parties.

Rob you seem to be making the assertion that the number of students we admit to med school is not limited -- arbitrarily -- by the AMA.

You are incorrect in that assertion.

The rest of your post #205 is meaningless since it draws conclusions based on a fallacious assumption.

Doctors now have to be dedicated and brilliant to get into Med school

Dedicated, yes. Brilliant, not so much. Being able to stay awake for 24 hours is not an indicator of intelligence.

You want to go to a parlimentary system?

I just want there to be four parties... Democrat, Republican, Liberal and Conservative. Break the parties up now and have a draft of current legislators LOL

Dedicated, yes. Brilliant, not so much. Being able to stay awake for 24 hours is not an indicator of intelligence.

#209 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

You don't know what you are talking about and its painfully obvious. You make it sound like doctors are just sitting up all night for the hell of it. They're operating still after 24 hours (even though meaningless regulations say they're not supposed to).

You think it doesn't take intelligence to go 24 hours without sleep and still know and remember the anatomy of a human as well as the proper steps to operate on a person? Its is an assault on the entire body both physically and mentally.

Doctors now have to be dedicated and brilliant to get into Med school... those are the people I want operating. Not some guy who got in because a school needed to fill seats and took a less than qualified applicant.
#205 | Posted by Rob_The_A_Hole

What a load of U-232 -- or is that U-571...I mean, one's an element or a drug or something and the other's a German submarine in a movie but, hey, machts nichts, know what I mean? -- pile of U-232 or U-571 loaded up crap that is. I mean, Rob, what the hell are you thinking about? You got your basic white lab rat coat, those thingies that stick in your ears and hang around your neck for checking if people's brains are humming, a pocketful of tongue depressers, a black bag chockablock with controlled substances, your Holiday Inn Express charge card, and a badge on chest that says "Dr. So and So" -- well, not really "Dr. So and So" unless you're Chinese or Vietnamese or whatever you find hanging out on the twelfth rock from the Sun -- and what more could you possible need?

You think it doesn't take intelligence to go 24 hours without sleep and still know and remember the anatomy of a human as well as the proper steps to operate on a person? Its is an assault on the entire body both physically and mentally.

Not really.

After 24 it becomes tough. But up to 24 hours, your brain still functions nominally, albeit a little more slowly.

Now, keep somebody awake for 30, 36, 48 hours and you will begin to see major errors in judgment, recall, etc. But at 24 hours, the brain still works fine.

But let's say I'm wrong. Do you really think they'd let interns just make mistakes, and weed out the "less fit" by having them make medical errors on patients???

Now, keep somebody awake for 30, 36, 48 hours and you will begin to see major errors in judgment, recall, etc. But at 24 hours, the brain still works fine.

Doctors on call can easily go 36 hours in the hospital.

Have you not gotten this yet? I know more about surgeons than you do. I just made dinner for one, and I'm waiting for her to get home after over 12 hours of trauma surgery. You are a clown, who obviously has a chip on his shoulder about not being a doctor.

Do you really think they'd let interns just make mistakes, and weed out the "less fit" by having them make medical errors on patients???

DO you get your doctor info from Grey's Anatomy? You don't get fired if you make a medical mistake in your internship/residency. They're discussed in M&M (Morbidity and Mortality) conferences and you learn from them. Only after a long documented process or a colossal fuck up is a doctor fired. Typically they're held back a year or advised to transfer to a different field of medicine.

By the way, yes they just let interns make mistakes... residents too. Sadly and shockingly that's typically at the VA hospitals if there is one, where residents are pretty much on their own in a "sink or swim" situation.

Doctors on call can easily go 36 hours in the hospital.
Yeah, but they get a nap. That changes everything.

You are a clown, who obviously has a chip on his shoulder about not being a doctor.
No you. You've mentioned it twice now. Go for three?

Sadly and shockingly that's typically at the VA hospitals if there is one, where residents are pretty much on their own in a "sink or swim" situation.
We can agree that it's amazing more people don't keel over dead. Though I am reminded of the IOM statistic that... lemme look it up... "as many as 44,000 to 98,000 people die in hospitals each year as the result of medical errors." "About 7,000 people per year are estimated to die from medication errors alone -- about 16 percent more deaths than the number attributable to work-related injuries."

You don't get fired if you make a medical mistake in your internship/residency

The best and brightest, most intelligent and most driven still make mistakes? But I thought we limited the number of doctors to keep that from happening? Hmmm maybe we (the AMA) limits it for some other reason?

Yeah, but they get a nap. That changes everything.

I didn't know nap-time was built into a surgeon's call schedule.

You've mentioned it twice now. Go for three?

I absolutely will. You're either spouting off hoping no one was going to call you on your ignorance (nap time), or you've had some sort of affiliation with healthcare. You have such a problem with doctors, I'm guessing you wanted to be one, but couldn't, now you want to disparage them as much as possible.

Are you an EMT? Nurse in training? You're talking like you've got some medical experience even though most of what you're saying about doctors is flat out wrong. So what is it? Daddy was a doctor?

The best and brightest, most intelligent and most driven still make mistakes?

The greatest doctors with decades of experience make mistakes. All doctors do. Which is why you don't want unqualified people in the system from the get go.

Bottom line is the Dems had a filibuster proof majority and could have passed anything they wanted without a single republican vote but they failed their own voters miserably.

Then they blame the republicans even though they didn't need a single republican vote to pass their agenda.

What a bunch of bitches. Blame the lame party.

That's why dems are dropping like flies.

Why don't you blame the chinese for our deficit while you're at it.

The biggest joke is Biden trying to claim credit for winning in Iraq while blaming the cost on Bush.

Which is why you don't want unqualified people in the system from the get go.
I didn't say I want unqualified people. I said the AMA arbitrarily keeps that number low, and they do so to keep demand and wages high.

Do you really disagree with this? You should ask some hospital administrators what they think.

Are you an EMT? Nurse in training? You're talking like you've got some medical experience even though most of what you're saying about doctors is flat out wrong. So what is it? Daddy was a doctor?
No, no, yes, and no. I suggest you let it go.

You're dating yourself. I served on some of her sister ships and transferred gear from the USS Kearsarge to the Ticonderoga on the other side of the pier when Kearsarge was decommissioning in Long Beach.

#129 | Posted by jestgettinalong

Commander Harmon Rabb's(JAG) father Harmon Rabb Sr. was MIA from the Tconderoga. He was a POW in Siberia during the Vietnam War

No, no, yes, and no. I suggest you let it go.

#225 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

Yes, you agree that most of what you're saying about doctors is flat out wrong?

Not going to let it go as long as you're around spreading misinformation about doctors. naptime lmao...

Are you a nurse practitioner or physician's assistant? They always seem to have the biggest chip on their shoulders since they're allowed to do more then your average nurse but still aren't doctors so they get no respect.

Are you a nurse practitioner or physician's assistant?
No and no.

Let's talk more about the AMA match. You really don't think they limit the supply of med students to keep demand and wages high?

Do you happen to work for or belong to the AMA?

I said the AMA arbitrarily keeps that number low, and they do so to keep demand and wages high

True or not the side effect is to make sure only the top tier of candidates get into medical school.

If you are only allowed a certain amount of students you're only going to take bright and qualified candidates so that the grades and the boards scores for your school are high. You take a few unqualified candidates and your numbers could drop like a stone.

Where you see keeping demand and wages high, I see making sure only the cream of the crop become doctors.

Yes, you agree that most of what you're saying about doctors is flat out wrong?

Well, they're not guaranteed a nap, I'll give you that. But their judgment isn't compromised by working long shifts. If you don't believe me I suggest you ask them.

Let's talk more about the AMA match. You really don't think they limit the supply of med students to keep demand and wages high?

Match is for residency and fellowship. Med school is application based.

I'm sure that's part of the AMA's reasoning, but also it keeps only the top tier candidates in med school, which means they're more likely not to flunk out and therefore make better doctors when they graduate.

Its like a college football team with only a limited number of scholarships to offer. When limited they'll take only the best recruits they can get. If they're scholarships are increased they'll bring in more players increasing the likelihood of some busting.

But their judgment isn't compromised by working long shifts. If you don't believe me I suggest you ask them.

#230 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

I'm talking to one as we type... you're an idiot. Studies have been done that shows sleep deprivation while driving is equivalent to drinking and driving. You think that doesn't apply to surgery as well? Medical studies have also shown that more mistakes happen toward the end of a long shift than at the beginning when a doctor is fresh. I believe the study was called, "You'd have to be an absolute chromosome missing fucking moron to think that sleep deprivation doesn't effect a physician's surgical skills."

But their judgment isn't compromised by working long shifts. If you don't believe me I suggest you ask them.

If judgement isn't compromised by long shifts, why did the AMA mandate that no resident work longer than 36 hours and no more than an 80 hour work week?

Please stop posting on this subject, its getting embarrassing, nurse.

I don't feel like posting the dozens of links... here's the search in google:

Where you see keeping demand and wages high, I see making sure only the cream of the crop become doctors.

Well if you refuse to acknowledge economics, and you refuse to acknowledge that the AMA acts in what they perceive as the best (economic) interests of those they invite into their exclusive club, that's your prerogative I suppose.

But it sure seems like you are being willfully ignorant.

Wait, didn't you say Mrs. A_Hole is a doctor? You don't think having a dog in this race colors your perception? Really?

Wait, didn't you say Mrs. A_Hole is a doctor? You don't think having a dog in this race colors your perception? Really?

#235 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

Where you see colored perception I see knowledge and experience on what it takes to be a doctor since we started dating when she was pre-med, married in medical school and have been together through her entire residency into fellowship and attending.

And in light of the fact that doctors are overworked and sleep-deprived, which leads directly to complications, you still think it's a bad idea to allow more people into med school and reduce the burden on the obviously too-few doctors we have.

Is that it?

And in light of the fact that doctors are overworked and sleep-deprived, which leads directly to complications, you still think it's a bad idea to allow more people into med school and reduce the burden on the obviously too-few doctors we have

The solution is not to flood the market with unqualified physicians, the solution is to better regulate the hours a doctor is allowed to work, especially in a single work day.

It solves nothing if you are replacing tired doctors who are prone to a mistake with wide awake unqualified doctors who will make a mistake.

The AMA is already talking about dropping the work week of residents from 80 hours to 70 or 60 (but extending residency by a year). That would help just fine with the sleep issue. The issue of attending physicians is more difficult to deal with because most of today's attendings used to work 100+ hour work weeks. That's just how they're wired now. But eventually they'll move on and retire and the problem will work itself out.

For fuck's sake, I'm not saying let everyone who wants show up at med school. Just let a few more in.

I mean, these doctors must be incredible, if the mistakes they routinely make during their insanely long shifts are still fewer than the errors well-rested doctors who scored one or two points lower on the MCAT would make.

It doesn't seem very likely that's the reason we have so few doctors. I think there's a much simpler reason. Here it is in graphical form: $$$

"The solution is not to flood the market with unqualified physicians"

No, it would be better to flood the market with well qualified physicians. WE could train more than we do now but some folks who profit by keeping the numbers low might object.

"I'm sure that's part of the AMA's reasoning,"

IT's the big part they don't like to admit to.

WE could train more than we do now but some folks who profit by keeping the numbers low might object.

Their spouses might object too, from the looks of things.

I mean, these doctors must be incredible, if the mistakes they routinely make during their insanely long shifts are still fewer than the errors well-rested doctors who scored one or two points lower on the MCAT would make.

I think we're starting to get Poofy's story here...

Woke-
I'm guessing Goatman has good health insurance, or thinks he does, and so is glib with the analogy of avoiding death in a desperate struggle for treatment to passing entertainment on a random Friday night.
#169 | POSTED BY BETELG AT 2010-02-15 05:12 PM

So very true.

He does his little disengenuous tap dance, comparing the necessity of healthcare and it's runaway costs to hollywood actors.....then declares internet blog victory as he dances around his computer....

Pretty sad, but hilarious too....just like all those whose pov is "i got mine, screw everyone else"

Note that despite the fact that the USA is the ONLY major industrialized nation that still allows profits over healthcare, well below them on that list among those countries in Infant Mortality....what most of the world uses to guage the efficacy of healthcare systems......

Just Hope Bayh Doesn't Take A Big S--T on the American people by voting For the Government Take Over of our Health Care System, and then depend on the Democrats to take care of him when he leaves the Senate as a payback for giving the Dems everything they have wanted for 60 years, ie, total control over every aspect of our lives...

Maybe Rob's wife is brilliant, but from doing medical transcription for many years, listening to doctors think and talk, I would like to give my opinion about doctors in general. There are very few brilliant ones and a helluva lot of them are near idiots. All the rest are so average it is boring as hell to listen to them try to puzzle out in their dull minds what they want to say. The medical profession is the biggest scam by mystique on the planet. Of course I must admit that the small band of surgeons are on a higher level than these generalizations I'm making here, though not many come across as impressive. Being a doctor is mainly just working the craft and doing the routine things, ad infinitum. You don't have to be actually very overall smart to be a doctor, you just have to have some talent for the math and science. It is damnable to require pre-med students to take hellishly difficult subjects like Physical Chemistry when they will never need it unless they go into research, but they use barriers like that to winnow out those who are more well rounded in their intelligence. They don't want doctors who are humanists, they want them to be scientists because doctors don't see patients as people but as objects.

#187 | Posted by BetelG

You are so full of manure--can you even walk??

They have been over promised pensions which is breaking the taxpayer.

It is not sustainable.

And I went to the prison guards in CA for specifics.

The biggest laugh from Bayh is that the deadline to file papers to run is like tomorrow--right??

Talk about late notice!

Bayh is a prime example of a rat that is deserting a sinking ship ...

He is *exactly* the kind of snake-in-the-grass, backstabbing, selfish self-interested, creep that Democrats have voted for since Roosevelt!!!

This major political rat should *NOT* be re-elected as governor of Indianna!!!

This fascist creep, sinking-ship-vermin, should not be re-elected to *anything*!!!

He is far worse than any Biden, Obama, Reid or Pelosi since he is one of the BIGGEST RATS to abandon you goosestepping yellow-dog-Democratics!!!

Rcade! Gin up the presses to hoist this traitor by his own petard!

Evan's version of Bayhpartisanship primarily involved doing wotever the rtards wanted of him.

Hopefully, his seat sees an actual Dem in place rather than just another do nothing blue dog Dem.

Be Well.

The party will replace him with ANOTHER blue dog jerkoff, just watch. Democrats are losers, even when they're ahead in seats.

Putting aside the topic of this thread, and really just personal between you and me, all I can say is, I own you.

LOL People who appoint themselves referee always say that.

The only time you ever "win" is when you are the self appointed judge, moder-h8. How sad life must be for you. Do you pull this stunt in court, counselor? "Your honor, no need to hold the trial. I own the prosecution".

LOL

Get a life, moder-h8. By that, I mean a meaningful one. Not one where you have to declare yourself #1 to find something worth living for. Such a sad little man you are.

Rob, it's not about me, or the MCAT, it's about health care. Specifically the role the AMA plays in impeding the delivery of health care to Americans. The AMA coined the term "socialized medicine," you know. It only took a hundred years for an organization ostensibly founded to deliver care to Americans to become co-opted by the vast amounts of money involved in the delivery -- expenditure which today consumes 1/6th of our GDP.

Your reflexive need to attribute a personal agenda to my statements is severely misguided.

There are no moderate democrats, never were. The liberals should be trying to work with conservatives, NOT the other way around. Only when they lose their super majority do they beg for bipartisanship. November is going to bring REAL change in Washington, finally. Maybe that's what Obama meant? I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt...win by losing. That would save his legacy if he could sell it, which he probably can.

I hope Dems wake up and throw the left overboard. They have ruined a great party."

WE just don't need two Republican parties.

#10 | Posted by danni at

here is a little tidbit I had emailed to me this morning..you may be interested in this point of view..

and just read down this thread a little ways and look at the 'dissension on the team'...

wow...dems eating thier own is a wonderfull thing to watch..and this from people who were supposed to be in complete power for generations to come...

and wasnt it just the other day that these people here and around telling us the gop wad DEAD......

excuse me while I TRY REALLY hard not to have TOO much of a shiteating smile on my face while you fuckers drown in your own spittle.....

I wonder if Republicans would welcome Bayh and possibly hand him the keys to the Repub. presidential candidate position?

PS - Mardi Gras did me in. I am done.

see any big tits because I know you had plenty of beads...

Taxman - The Republicans Know that Evan Bayh has always been just as liberal -- as radical as any other tax and spend Democrat -- but has cloaked it in his so-called reasonable, soft spoken, "I'm just a nice guy", "I so care for the country" facade.

Bayh always voted against the people and with the Democrats, for instance, on this freedom robbing, tax hiking, no cost control health care fiasco of a bill the Dems in Congress put up for a Christmas Eve-in-the middle-of-the-night-vote.

Why would Republicans who are moving closer to Constitutional, small government, tax lowering, reduced, responsible government ever put up a tax and spender like Evan Bayh!

Why would Republicans who are moving closer to Constitutional, small government, tax lowering, reduced, responsible government

I'll believe it when I see it. And anyone promising they can fix our deficit in the short term while at the same time offering lower taxes is lying. Anyone who offers projections more than 10 years out is lying and just trying to pass the burden on to the next guy.

The new Governor of New Jersy, a conservative Republican, is laying it on the line to cut services and entitlements to the Unionized government employees and their minions.

We'll see if the Democrats in that essentially bankrupt state allow it.

The new Governor of New Jersy, a conservative Republican, is laying it on the line to cut services and entitlements to the Unionized government employees and their minions.

It still won't be enough to fix their budget woes.

David Broder has a column today about why Bayh is quitting.

It has to do with the partisan and unworkable congress, which continues to choose gridlock via the extremists on both sides of the aisle ignoring moderate's attempts to right the ship.