Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs
Monday, February 08, 2010

William Saletan: I can't tell you what drugs Pam Tebow was given or how severe her [placental] abruption was. ... But remember, she was doing missionary work in the Philippines. The perinatal and maternal death rates from abruption in her area were probably closer to the rates in Pakistan or Burkina Faso than to the U.S. rate. She and her son are with us today not just because of courage but because of luck.

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Did the ad mention abortion?? was it even implied??

It struck me as an ad for universal maternal health care, something FOTF wouldn't support, I suspect.

It would be nice for a change if posters on this thread actually read the article at the top before posting opinions that really have nothing to do with the article itself.

The main point of the article being that although in the case of the Tebow family both mother and fetus survived, in thousands of other cases the result is that both mother and fetus die. In short, Pam and Tim Tebow got VERY lucky under the circumstances. Something that the vast majority of women in the same situation cannot assume will happen in their cases.

Did the ad mention abortion?? was it even implied??

#1 | Posted by Turd_Ferguson

No. And very much so.

I really thought the V. W. slugbug ad was much better. ;?)>

Why are libs obsessed with killing babies?

^^^
idiot, canned response

I don't get the obsession with this ad. You libs claim to be pro-CHOICE right? Doesn't that include the choice to not have an abortion?

They paid for the ad, it didn't have anything to do with overturning Roe v. Wade, it didn't even judge people who are for abortion. Good Lord, shut the fuck up about it you whiny sloppy bitches...

On the other side of the coin, Tim Tebow is a piece of shit, and you have to wonder why a Heisman trophy winning national champion QB would spend his spring break circumcising little boys when he could be banging hot ass 18-21 year old florida girls...

Fuck you Tim, and Urban Meyer.

Go noles

the ad was pretty tame for FOTF.

rob, you seemed like a dick for not liking tebow for helpin' out with kids. then I saw 'go noles'. LOL

That's the prescribed moral of the story: Choose life.
Can't have that!

-Pro-choicers

I don't understand the uproar either. The ad was pretty tame, and simply offered up a story of one family. Free speech, as long as you speak about things we agree with.

-Whiners

Although I understand what is being stated in the article, I don't believe that it has much impact on the ad. I think the ad is just trying to get across to individuals that they should think about that choice that they are being told about. It could go either way, both might live, one might die, both might die, however if someone has an abortion, many times it can be as though both individuals died as well, in terms of the emotional stress on the person having to abort.

I don't get the obsession with this ad. You libs claim to be pro-CHOICE right? Doesn't that include the choice to not have an abortion?

It's supposed to, but that ad was, while civil, a part of the effort to take away that choice from a woman. Any woman has the choice to not have an abortion. That was the brunt of that ad's message. If the "Pro-life" people (who are, by and large, VERY in favor of the death penalty get their way that 'choice' will no longer be availble.

The Republican mantra of 'keep the government out of our lives!' is perplexing when compared to efforts to legislate what a woman can and can't choose, or what people can do in the privacy of their bedrooms.

Personally, I'm not "pro-abortion' by any stretch of the imagination, but I, like Republicans claim to advocate, think personal decisions are best left by the people who want to make their own decisions.

Pam and Tim Tebow got VERY lucky under the circumstances. Something that the vast majority of women in the same situation cannot assume will happen in their cases.

#3 | Posted by moder8

lucky? - - - no shit mod8 . . .
the odds for even playin' at the major college level are astronomical!

besides that - - Sanger the pro-"choice" (wink-wink) founder of planned parenthood, had abortions in mind for blacks, urban poor, and 3rd world types

trashing "clumps of cell tissue" from educated WHITE parents didn't really fit her business model

It's supposed to, but that ad was, while civil, a part of the effort to take away that choice from a woman.

Yup. They don't just want to persuade women not to choose abortion; they want to take the choice away entirely. It's disingenuous for people to claim otherwise.

Also, as innocuous as the ad was, the Super Bowl network would never allow a similarly mild ad from Planned Parenthood. It's not a fair game.

as innocuous as the ad was, the Super Bowl network would never allow a similarly mild ad from Planned Parenthood. It's not a fair game.

#15 | Posted by rcade

an innocuous Planned Parenthood ad?

"Planned Parenthood protects your right to choose . . . as long as you CHOOSE DEATH"

Has Mark met the Cid, or is Mark really Cid under another name? herm

"The main point of the article being that although in the case of the Tebow family both mother and fetus survived, in thousands of other cases the result is that both mother and fetus die. In short, Pam and Tim Tebow got VERY lucky under the circumstances. Something that the vast majority of women in the same situation cannot assume will happen in their cases."

And the author, and you, have made an absurd exaggeration. Mortality, even in the cited 3rd world nations, is about 16%. So, the Tebow's experience is approximated about 84% of the time even under the worst of health care conditions. Any poker player will tell you, if you're an 84% favorite, you put all your money in- it's a slam dunk.

Americanunity-
If the "Pro-life" people (who are, by and large, VERY in favor of the death penalty

Please provide documentation of that claim. Most major mainstream Pro-Life groups oppose capital punishment.

as innocuous as the ad was, the Super Bowl network would never allow a similarly mild ad from Planned Parenthood. It's not a fair game.

As a privately owned entity, that's their right, but I also suspect you're wrong.

If the Tebow ad were as in-your-face as a Planned Parenthood ad would be, it likely would have been rejected.

I guess the only way to find out is if PP creates an ad with a woman talking about how thrilled she was to have aborted her child and submits it for next year's Super Bowl...

I really don't think I would have known what this ad was about if not for the "controversy."

I almost expected it to end with Tim and his mom both drinking a glass of milk to stay healthy. Brought to you by the dairy council.

If the "Pro-life" people (who are, by and large, VERY in favor of the death penalty

Most major mainstream Pro-Life groups oppose capital punishment.

He didn't say groups, he said people. Last I heard most Americans support the death penalty, though I haven't checked the numbers in a while. So at best, those groups aren't getting the message out.

A recent live-caller Research 2000 poll of 2000 ramdomly selected, registered, self identified Republican voters:

76% considered abortion murder.
90% support for the death penalty.

Another paradoxical result among those strong anti-abortion sentiments were 31% who thought contraceptives should be outlawed.

"It's supposed to, but that ad was, while civil, a part of the effort to take away that choice from a woman. "

What an absurd comment. Abortion is more or less a settled issue in the U.S., and is regulated at the state level, where it belongs.

You're like those cranky old civil rights leaders who are pissed because you won. Now, you got no reason to lock arms and sing "We Shall Overcome" because you already did so.

But just like the stupid comment above, it's necessary to try and maintain a sense of urgency and crisis (Orwellian). Otherwise, what are you going to do with your time?

76% considered abortion murder.
90% support for the death penalty.

#21 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2010-02-09 01:35 AM | Reply | Flag:

No paradox here. Unlike you, the vast majority of Americans can distinguish between an innocent infant in the womb, and a serial rapist/ murderer on death row.

You clearly fail to grasp what is obvious to an overwhelming number of people. It's you who are delusional, not the majority of others. But you cannot see that because you ... deluded.

It's killing either way.

Didn't you hear 'vengence is mine, sayeth the Lord?
Life without parole is a much harsher punishment anyway.

"but ... but .... if you claim to be pro-life then that has to apply to all life!"
-Moder-H8

No, it does not.

When some piece of filth rapes and murders a dozen young girls, I value the lives of those victims far greater than the life of the criminal. The criminal already knew the penalty for getting caught, and made his choice.

The only appropriate way to deal with such a criminal is a passionless, non-emotion execution at the hands of the state.

Besides, you don't believe that 'every life is sacred' crap but only use it as a tactic to try and corner people.

You think it's hypocrisy, when in fact it is intellectually consistent.

on that "luck" note... iirc, in Lake of Fire (highly recommended documentary/movie) there is the stat something about child bearing age women (when abortion was illegal) -- abortion being the #1 cause of death in that group.

about the SB ad, WTF was all the fuss about? did this ad possibly get edited [down]? i wonder. oh well. but yeah, i hate the FoF talibaptist just as much as anyone.

other ads: i'll tell ya, damn if they weren't prepping us for the [rejected] mancruch add next SB!

VERN

Hmmm. Jesus forgave the murderer to his right and told him he would be in Heaven that day. If he had His choice, Jesus would have freed him and told him to go an sin no more.

That's true because Jesus didn't condemn Saul to death for killing God-knows how many Jews. No. He converted him and Paul became a disciple.

Please don't profess Christianity as your faith and then say it's ok for men to kill others for vengence. Life in a tiny cell, the pariah of the prison population, is a far more just punishment.

Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord."

Jesus Christ

Why do some Christians pick the parts of the Bible that suit their purposes and choose to disregard the word of the Lord?

Didn't you hear 'vengence is mine, sayeth the Lord?

#24 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2010-02-09 01:49 AM | Reply | Flag:

Damn, you are predictable.

Do you really want to start misquoting Scripture?

Right here I can straighten you out:

Vengeance belongs to God (meaning we don't seek revenge to satisfy our own angry lusts) but God also expects civil government to carry it out:

Romans 13:3 -- For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you.

4--For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

------------

"Life without parole is a much harsher punishment anyway."

Maybe that's your opinion of three squares, a/c and cable TV. But you've already proven yourself to be delusional.

Why do some Christians pick the parts of the Bible that suit their purposes and choose to disregard the word of the Lord?

#28 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2010-02-09 01:59 AM | Reply | Flag:

Guess I could say that about your posts, except ....

You obviously only know a few selected verses that you drag out every time you have this argument, thinking it makes you sound informed. Whereas, you don't know the context of what you are quoting, and don't know anything about Scripture.

Plus, you want to cherry-pick a few lines that support your pre-conceived notions. Well, it's easy to make the Bible say anything you want (In Psalms it says "there is no God")

Being a Christian means understanding God's Spirit and adjusting your thought patterns to what God would have you believe.

Romans 12:2 -- Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will ishis good, pleasing and perfect will.

What is capital punishment but man's idea of vengeance?

You're so predictalbe, VERN. An angry, snarky, insulting, cussing, mean spirited "Christian". No wonder most churches are mostly empty on Sunday mornings. The only ones full are Talibaptist churches.

I suppose Jesus should have let the crowd stone that woman to death? No, he said "he who is without sin among you cast the first stone" as he started writing their sins in the dirt.

Only 400 years ago 'heresy' was a capital offence punishable by burning at the stake, and death by strangulation if you confessed.

Man killing man for vengeance over any 'sin' or 'law' does NOT conform with Christian principles. But, most like you conveniently have an excuse to justify just about anything you do. Heck, the guy who murdered the abortion doctor in a church thought he was doing God's work too. Think he should fry?

Unlike you, the vast majority of Americans can distinguish between an innocent infant in the womb

Infants are crawling back into the womb after they're born?

That's weird.

VERN

Not to brag, but I memorized the Bible by the time I was 18. I know every hymn in the book. You may climb down from the pulpit. IMO, 'Christians" like you ignore most of the red print and get all fired up over Old Testament wrath.

You can ignore the Red Print, CHRISTianity - the philosophy of Christ. God gave you free will to be a horrible example here nightly. IMO, you take full advantage of it.

I know, I know! "Judge not that ye be not judged", but since you get up on your mighty pulpit about being "Christian". No doubt you'd have drooled if given the chance to crucify you some sinners, or to have been the firesetter during the Inquisitions if only given the chance.

Being a Christian means understanding God's Spirit and adjusting your thought patterns to what God would have you believe.

I don't need to understand God's Spirit. "He sent His only beloved Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved". Evangelical Christians, by and large, are among the most condemning people one could meet.

The whole premise of the 'pro-life' crowd is flawed if you want to cherry pick Bible verses.

"Then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature. ... I'm not 'pro-abortion' by any stretch of the imagination, but if you want to be nit picky, zygotes don't breath. "Pro-life" people are even opposed to the 'Day After Pill'.

Vengeance belongs to God (meaning ....

Right there's the trouble. "Meaning...". I can't count the times I sat in church and the pastor would read a verse that made me feel good about God only to continue, "but, Brothers and Sisters, that doesn't 'mean' this because Ezekial so-and-so says that (there was the wiggle room out of taking Christ's words literally).

Jesus was inclusive, Paul was exclusive. Jesus took in Paul, a man who'd killed thousands of Jews and forgave him, yet Paul told early Christians not to hang out with people that weren't their own kind. See the paradox? It's all too convenient, and as you may or may not know, the subject of many a year's arguing about what would be in the Bible. Lust for power won out over simple practice of Christian principles.

VERN, thought you might choose to justify your views. Guess not. Have a good day

If the "Pro-life" people (who are, by and large, VERY in favor of the death penalty

Most major mainstream Pro-Life groups oppose capital punishment.
He didn't say groups, he said people.

Groups are made of people, aren't they?

He also didn't say "Republicans", he said Pro-Life, although he seems unable to understand the distinction, based on his attempted "documentation". There are Pro-Life Democrats and Independents, as a matter of fact, and as of May 2009 according to Gallup- slightly more credible than Research 2000/Daily Kos- 51% of Americans identify themselves as Pro-Life.

Last I heard most Americans support the death penalty, though I haven't checked the numbers in a while
You're a big fan of fallacious arguments, and this from you is a prime example. Just because John has two legs and bears have two legs, that doesn't make John a bear.

Jesus took in Paul, a man who'd killed thousands of Jews and forgave him, yet Paul told early Christians not to hang out with people that weren't their own kind.
#35 | POSTED BY AMERICANUNITY AT 2010-02-09 02:57 AM | REPLY | FLAG:

You are a veritable encyclopedia of misinformation.

Paul was Jewish- likely a member of the Temple leadership, in fact; he persecuted Christians.

Paul would have been between 5 and 8 years old at the time of the crucifixion. Jesus, so the story goes, appeared to him in a vision; he didn't "take him in".

No wonder most churches are mostly empty on Sunday mornings.

Actually, attendance at Christian churches has been steadily rising for over a decade.

I suppose Jesus should have let the crowd stone that woman to death? No, he said "he who is without sin among you cast the first stone" as he started writing their sins in the dirt.

He also instructed the woman to "go and sin no more".

An important lesson to be learned there, actually. I'm not a Christian, but I hand it to Jesus on this one- he forgave the woman not because she repented or deserved forgiveness, but because she was a person who NEEDED forgiveness, whether she knew it or not. He then trusted her to repent.

Would that people treated each other with such compassion...

Last I heard most Americans support the death penalty, though I haven't checked the numbers in a while

You're a big fan of fallacious arguments, and this from you is a prime example. Just because John has two legs and bears have two legs, that doesn't make John a bear.

Huh?

You seemed to be suggesting the bulk of the opponents of the death penalty are also in the anti-abortion camp. I disagree.

KEN_SCHWARTZ

Research 2000 is a non-partisan, respected polling firm who use very strict methodology and live pollsters. But, you read "DKOS" and made up your mind without ever having looked at it or read the methodology used, right?. Research 2000 are strict, as pollsters go. The poll was of 2000 self-identified, registered, voting, randomly selected Republican 'people'. DKOS only paid for the poll. The results are what they are.

The 51% of Americans opposed don't have to get an abortion if they choose not to, do they? Is it their right to tell the other 49% what they can do? Didn't think that meshed with the Republican mantra of 'personal liberty'. I don't think it's my business to make it my business what a woman chooses to do. Like the Republican "keep the government out of our lives" mantra rarely put to use when it comes to bedrooms or bodies.

You seemed to be suggesting the bulk of the opponents of the death penalty are also in the anti-abortion camp.

You should brush up on your reading skills. I asked for documentation of AU's claim that Pro-Life people "are, by and large, VERY in favor of the death penalty. So far, it's not been presented.

You responded with the weak argument that "most Americans" support the death penalty, which is not nearly the same thing as documenting that Pro-Life people in general are "VERY" in favor of the death penalty (or, for that matter, what makes a person "Very" in favor of it vs. "Somewhat" or "Circumstantially" in favor of it).

Research 2000 is a non-partisan, respected polling firm who use very strict methodology and live pollsters

Gallup is the Cadillac of polling. Regardless, the Daily Kos survey didn't support your thesis that Pro-Lifers are "very" in favor of the death penalty, since it wasn't a poll of Pro-Lifers, it was a poll of Republicans.

The 51% of Americans opposed don't have to get an abortion if they choose not to, do they?

That's a pretty stupid response.

Is it their right to tell the other 49% what they can do?

It's their right to lobby for the laws to change. Very much so. Just as it's the right of MADD to lobby for strict drunk-driving laws, or the right of NOW to lobby for workplace discrimination laws and equal pay.

Are you under the impression that the only people with rights are those with whom you agree?

Didn't think that meshed with the Republican mantra of 'personal liberty'.

I'm not sure why you keep carrying on about Republicans. What do Republicans have to do with this?

KEN

Quite a reach there. I said:

A recent live-caller Research 2000 poll of 2000 ramdomly selected, registered, self identified Republican voters:

76% considered abortion murder.
90% support for the death penalty.

Another paradoxical result among those strong anti-abortion sentiments were 31% who thought contraceptives should be outlawed.

#21 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2010-02-09 01:35 AM

Here are links.

I'd guess you've already made up your mind no matter who the pollster or how strict the methodology. Margin of error in this poll: 2%

www.research2000.us
www.politico.com
(Link to poll in first line of the article)

the Daily Kos survey didn't support your thesis that Pro-Lifers are "very" in favor of the death penalty, since it wasn't a poll of Pro-Lifers, it was a poll of Republicans.

Will you at least accept that Republican pro-lifers are very much in favor of the death penalty?

There would have to be as many or more Democrat and non-affiliated pro-lifers, and they would have to be as strongly if not more strongly against the death penalty than Republicans to make your claim true.

And I just don't think that's the case. One of the Democratic party's pillars is pro-choice. There's almost certainly more anti-abortion Republicans than Democrats. Look at the states which perennially attempt to enact abortion restrictions, red states.

I suppose the independents could sway the numbers your way, but I think that's unlikely.

KEN

I linked the poll above. These were 2000 carefully screened, self identified 'REPUBLICAN only, verified as registered Republican voters who'd voted in at least the last 2 elections, randomly selected, live polled via phone, margin of error 2%

Question are very straight forward. If you don't check it out there's really no point in discussing it with you, KEN. "Contempt prior to investigation" is not in the debate handbook LOL

By 'screened': if they didn't match the tight methodology - usually vote, must have voted in one of the past two elections, registered as Republicans, etc ...

AU, those poll numbers are amazing.

Do you believe that Barack Obama was born in the United States of America or not?
Yes 77
No 11
Not sure 12

Party Yes No Not sure
Dem 93 4 3
Rep 42 28 30
Ind 83 8 9

Location
Northeast 93 4 3
South 47 23 30
Midwest 90 6 4
West 87 7 6


Such congruency between the South and the Republicans -- and the Democrats and the Northeast -- is startling. Obama is truly a crystallizing force in our politics, that's what this tells me. Also surprising how Independents lean so strongly to the Democratic numbers. Of course this poll is only one issue, but it tells a lot about how party affiliation and even geographic location shape our beliefs.

Ken-
re: Gallup is the Cadillac of polling. Regardless, the Daily Kos survey didn't support your thesis that Pro-Lifers are "very" in favor of the death penalty, since it wasn't a poll of Pro-Lifers, it was a poll of Republicans.

Let's delve into this a bit:

76% considered abortion murder.
90% support for the death penalty.

So, of polled Republicans, 76% believe that abortion, unqualified by any circumstance, is murder. And 90% believe that the death penalty is dandy.

Work the numbers for me (I'm not so much a math person, you see), or do the next most irresponsible thing and claim the poll is in error.

That's the wrong link. OOPS.

Here's the poll I was talking about (it won't shatter any conservative's monitors, promise! LOL):

Research 2000 poll of 2000 randomly selected Republican voters

23% would like their state to secede from the United States

Research 2000 poll of 2000 registered Republican voters - MOE 2%

"The Daily Kos Republican Poll was conducted by Research 2000 from January 20 through January 31, 2010. A total of 2003 self identified Republicans were interviewed nationally by telephone. Those interviewed were selected by the random variation of the last four digits of telephone numbers, nationally.

The margin for error, according to standards customarily used by statisticians, is no more than plus or minus 2% percentage points."

FTA: Pam's story certainly is moving. But as a guide to making abortion decisions, it's misleading. Doctors are right to worry about continuing pregnancies like hers. Placental abruption has killed thousands of women and fetuses. No doubt some of these women trusted in God and said no to abortion, as she did. But they didn't end up with Heisman-winning sons. They ended up dead.

And now you know the rest of the story.

Good article.

Be Well.

SNOOFY

Note in the complete poll only 42% of the 2003 polled Republicans thought Obama was born in the United States.

The questions are very straight forward. This is an interview with the President of Research 2000 (who work for both parties) explaining the methodology. As you can read, they were VERY stringent:

Interview with Del Ali, President of Research 2000 on how they conduct their polls.

Betelg:

You seem to be asking why the poll doesn't support AU's claim. You said it yourself

"So, of polled Republicans,"

AU's claim was about "Pro-Lifers". which for some reason he and Snoofy choose to use interchangeably with Republicans. Snoof dismisses out of hand the fact that there are non-Republican "Pro-Lifers", and considers Pro-Life groups inconsequential to the discussion. Lots of goalposts being moved on that side of the discussion.

AU:

These were 2000 carefully screened, self identified 'REPUBLICAN only, verified as registered Republican voters who'd voted in at least the last 2 elections, randomly selected, live polled via phone, margin of error 2%

Exactly. Not a survey of Pro-Lifers (or even a cross-section of people who consider themselves Republican, which would include moderates and those who rarely or never vote), but a survey of active Republicans.

Again- what do Republicans have to do with it? You were talking about Pro-Lifers. Why the switch?

Dethspud:

Pam's story certainly is moving. But as a guide to making abortion decisions, it's misleading. Doctors are right to worry about continuing pregnancies like hers. Placental abruption has killed thousands of women and fetuses.

About 16%-17% of 3rd world placental abruptions result in death to the mother or child or both. So Pam's decision to give birth to her child was actually playing the odds- the 83%-84% chance that both would survive.

AU's claim was about "Pro-Lifers". which for some reason he and Snoofy choose to use interchangeably with Republicans.

I never said interchangable. Republicans do cater to the anti-abortion movement though. Consequently I would expect to find more of them in the Republican party.

Based on the numbers AU presented, there are going to have to be a LOT of anti-abortion anti-death penalty Democrats and Independents to make up for the large percentage of anti-abortion Republicans who support the death penatly. See?

Tell you what Ken, why don't you go ahead and refute AU's claim if it's so easily refuted?

SNOOFY

Note in the complete poll only 42% of the 2003 polled Republicans thought Obama was born in the United States.

Yeah I know. Believing in something abstract like "trickle down" is one thing but not believing where someone was born...

I guess I shouldn't be surprised though. There was that time when the Republican candidates (not the voters, the actual candidates) were asked if they believed in evolution, and only two of ten hands up.

I find I'm still surprised.

KEN

Nowhere, since I mentioned this poll did I say "Pro-lifers". That was my opinion in a separate conversation with VERNON, and was in no way a reference to the poll of Republicans, just an opinion.

The poll I've linked asked specific questions and got specific results. Find where I said "Pro-lifer" anywhere since I started talking about this poll HERE. Just registered Republicans:

A recent live-caller Research 2000 poll of 2000 ramdomly selected, registered, self identified Republican voters:

76% considered abortion murder.
90% support for the death penalty.

Another paradoxical result among those strong anti-abortion sentiments were 31% who thought contraceptives should be outlawed.

#21 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY


SNOOFY

I just explained to KEN any mention to "Pro-lifers" was a subjective opinion in a separate conversation with VERNON.
The numbers in the poll of Republicans are what they are. They are the opinions of Republican, registered voters, not mine.

The other night someone played semantics and word games long enough to have taken their own poll before they clicked the link. LOL DKOS wrote a check. That's it. But, mention the name and they'll dance around for an hour trying to discredit it, even though it was done by a very reputable firm with stringent methods and only a 2% margin of error. LOL

I'm not sure why you keep carrying on about Republicans. What do Republicans have to do with this?

Republicans are the party of forced birthers.

The party who made having an anti-choice stance a political prerequisite for anyone wanting to werk in the BushCo WH.

They're the ones trying to overturn Roe V Wade.

You know this.

Republicans are also the party of pro-death penalty.

The "pro-life" label seems a bit hypocritical when you juxtapose both these facts.

See also: Failing to note the link between the anti-choicer movement and the Republican party.

Be Well.

To be considered a viable Democrat on the far left you have to be for abortion on demand. If you are a Dem for age limits on abortions, notifiying parents, or for ban on partial birth abortions, the far left will never support you.

Repubs are anti-death-penalty for unborn and pro-death-penalty for criminals...

Dems are pro-death-penalty for unborn and anti death-penalty for criminals...

And Dethspud thinks its the republicans that are mixed up?

Dems are not 'pro-abortion', they're 'pro-choice'. There's a big difference. There are a diversity of opinions within the party. You missed the Stupak Amendment in the health care bill and the group of 'pro-life' Democrats who co-sponsored the amendment?

Under Roe vs Wade any woman can choose to NOT have an abortion anytime. Under the GOP that choice would not be hers. Isn't that a libertarian position? Personal liberty? I thought that was one of the main platforms - personal freedom.

Dems are pro-death-penalty for unborn and anti death-penalty for criminals...

Dems are pro-choice not pro-death.

Dems support someone like Tebow's mom in her decison to risk her life to bring a difficult pregancy to term and they also support women who choose to terminate their pregnancies.

Spud is actually pro-death penalty in principle just not in practise.

Governments track record vis a vis executing innocent people is not good ergo rejecting the death penalty is really an affirmation fer the life of the innocent more than anything else.

Foetuses are innocent too, of course, but their right to be brought to term cannot be allowed to supercede a woman's right to choose to carry to term or not.

Before abortion was made legal too many women died in childbirth due to easily forseen complications or from back alley abortions.

Ergo pro-choice is pro-life.

And yes, Republicans are mixed up by being hopelessly blood-thirsty barbarians on the issues of war, torture, the death penalty and abortion.

See also: Allegedly being for the rights of the individual and against governmental over-intrusion while simultaneously pushing for it to be made law through defeating Roe v. Wade and attacking marriage fer gays folks.

"Mixed up" doesn't even begin to describe the lunacy inherent in the default rethug position.

Be Well.

Dems are not 'pro-abortion', they're 'pro-choice'. There's a big difference.

YOu keep believing that. The far-left would never support someone like Stupak in he ever ran for the US Senate. He is a conservative Dem. The only reason they deal with him is because they know a far left candidate does not play well in his ditrict. The far left believes abortions are a right under all circumstances. While many independents and conservative Dems may be pro-choice, the far left is certainly pro-abortion.

the far left is certainly pro-abortion.

No matter how many times you repeat that lie it remains a lie.

K?

Be Well.

It is intellectually inconsistent to support abortion as a choice and then rant/rave about the inhumanity of the Death Penalty as a conciquence for violent choices a "human" made in life. (I.E.: Murder, rape, Investment/Investor fraud, ect....)

Yup. They don't just want to persuade women not to choose abortion; they want to take the choice away entirely. It's disingenuous for people to claim otherwise.
Also, as innocuous as the ad was, the Super Bowl network would never allow a similarly mild ad from Planned Parenthood. It's not a fair game.

#15 | POSTED BY RCADE

What ad were you waterheads watching?! All I saw was Timmy's mom talking about how they almost lost him, then Tim blindside tackled his mom, but she got right up because he hits like a girl.

I could see you complain about violence against women, but for fucks sake, it had almost nothing to do with abortion. If you didn't know the Tim Tebow shoulda been aborted story, you could just as rightfully speculate that the story was about prayer and how that saved him from being in the dumpster.

You're not pro-choice, you're obviously pro-abortion, or you're pro-choice provided everyone chooses what you want them to choose. Either or, you're both full of shit.

Fuck I really miss being able to post at work... I'll check back later to hear the whines of people making more out of a dumb ad then there really was just because it implied something they don't agree with.

Damn it Rob. These fools had 2 weeks to get all lathered up over this horrible ad. They''re like a fucking rock rolling down a hill. They can't stop themselves.

The ad did a wonderful job of exposing the knee-jerk left for the pants-pissing thong-soiling group of intolerant fetus haters that they've always been.

AU:
Nowhere, since I mentioned this poll did I say "Pro-lifers".

I know. You were asked for documentation for your claim that the majority of Pro-Life people were "VERY" much in favor of capital punishment, and insted responded with a poll of Republicans.

Dethspud:

Republicans are the party of forced birthers.

When you make childish comments such as calling Pro-Life proponents "forced birthers", you abandon credibility. However, your poor reasoning strips your credibility anyway. Most Republicans oppose abortion, but not everybody who opposes abortion is Republican. Using the terms interchangably, particularly when talking to a Pro-Life Democrat, doesn't help your argument.

Dems are pro-choice not pro-death

Odd that you would use an asinine euphemism like "forced birthers", then quibble when somebody does something similar to you.

The "pro-life" label seems a bit hypocritical when you juxtapose both these facts

For an individual to hold those positions doesn't strike me as logically consistent, I agree. However, blindly dismissing all Pro-Lifers because you're too lazy to distinguish between Republicans and Pro-Lifers isn't very bright.

And opposing the murder of an adult but supporting the murder of unborn children seems hypocritical, and more than a bit barbaric.

Tell you what Ken, why don't you go ahead and refute AU's claim if it's so easily refuted?

His claim was too nebulous to be proven, or refuted. His claim was that most Pro-Lifers are "very" in favor of the death penalty.

What does "very" in favor of the death penalty mean? Does it mean wishing it were used more often, or in all cases? Does it mean believing it's a beautiful thing? Does it mean believing the state should have the option, in certain cases?

If AU would make a coherent point, and if I disagree with that point, I'll be happy to refute it.

As it is, all I did was ask him to provide supporting documentation. He chose instead to post an unrelated survey.

Perhaps all you learned biblical scholars can clear up something that's always puzzled me: As there is no commandment that says "thou shalt not abort" I assume the "pro-life" folk must object on the grounds of the selectively applied 5th--"Thou shalt not kill".

So if pro life means absolute adherence to the "thou shalt not kill" direction, how can one be pro-life and pro-war at the same time? I don't recall any sub-paragraphs in the 5th commandment that say anything about "Thou shalt not kill---except under following circumstances"

And those same tirelessly vocal pro-lifers are remarkably quiet when it comes to the deaths of innocent bystander muslim women who may be pregnant.

So I guess "pro-life" applies only to American pregnant women? Wstern hemisphere WASP women?

Just saying...

Just one question.

IF Republicans are so pro life and wanting to overturn Roe v Wade, why did they NOT do so while holding congress, potus and scotus for 5 years, 2001-2006?

Imo, it's just one of their "cultural war" issues, similarly illegal immigration, that they get voters riled up about, yet while in power do nothing about......

If you didn't know the Tim Tebow shoulda been aborted story, you could just as rightfully speculate that the story was about prayer and how that saved him from being in the dumpster.

You didn't read what I said. The ad was innocuous. But the Focus on the Family site they direct viewers to is about abortion, and the purpose of the group's campaign is to criminalize abortion. The Tebows want to criminalize abortion.

That's why the other side is opposed to the campaign. It's not just about the Super Bowl ad. They believe the state should not force women to carry all pregnancies to term.

When you make childish comments such as calling Pro-Life proponents "forced birthers", you abandon credibility.

Quite the reverse, in fact.

By refusing to deviate from accepted RW euphemisms you refuse to accept the simple truth that by denying women reproductive choice you are literally forcing women to bring a pregnancy to term.

Ergo yer credibility is in question not Spud's.

Most Republicans oppose abortion, but not everybody who opposes abortion is Republican. Using the terms interchangably, particularly when talking to a Pro-Life Democrat, doesn't help your argument.

Most Republicans are opposed to choice but not all.

Most Dems are for reproductive rights but not all.

That reality noted the vast bulk of money raised to make abortion illegal goes straight to the GOP. It's been a successful fund raiser and wedge issue fer them fer decades now. Not noting that reality is being disingenuous to the extreme.

Odd that you would use an asinine euphemism like "forced birthers", then quibble when somebody does something similar to you.

Odd that Spud would correct an asinine euphemism like "pro-death" or "pro-life"?

No, it would only be odd if Spud didn't correct you.

For an individual to hold those positions doesn't strike me as logically consistent, I agree. However, blindly dismissing all Pro-Lifers because you're too lazy to distinguish between Republicans and Pro-Lifers isn't very bright.

Republicans are "Pro-Lifers" as a rule.

That there are exceptions to this rule does not discount that rule.

Not acknowledging this simple and obvious truth makes you look less than bright.

Be Well.

#72 | POSTED BY USN

Cherry picker. Go read Deuteronomy 20:16-17 Then we can talk about the 5th commandment.

BTW it's the 6th, not 5th

The far-left would never support someone like Stupak in he ever ran for the US Senate.

So what, the "far left" is what, maybe five percent of the electorate? Nobody needs their support. There is no far left in American politics; it can barely find a place even on the "liberal" New York Times editorial page.

Just one question.
IF Republicans are so pro life and wanting to overturn Roe v Wade, why did they NOT do so while holding congress, potus and scotus for 5 years, 2001-2006?

Because Roe established a Constitutional right to abortion. Thus, it would require 38 States agreeing to a Constitutional amendment to ban abortion.

The other way to overturn Roe is bring the case back to the Supreme Court, but not enough of the "pro-choice" justices retired to allow appointing enough anti-choice justices to sway the balance. I believe the current Court would be expected to rule 6-3 in favor of a Constitutional right to abortion, or maybe it's 5-4. If Republicans regain the Presidency before the so-called "liberal bloc" retires (and is presumably replaced by more "liberals") that could change.

Essentially, the way our government is set up makes it difficult to overturn Roe. You've either got to pack the court or get some blue states to go anti-abortion. Certainly you won't get 38 states agreeing to a ban. And it seems unlikely the Court will go far enough right to ban it (seven of the nine justices were appointed by Republicans, so going farther right seems unlikely, but at this point anything goes I'd say).

Imo, it's just one of their "cultural war" issues, similarly illegal immigration, that they get voters riled up about, yet while in power do nothing about.....

I agree wholeheartedly. Our electorate is too dumb to discriminate between grandstanding and workable policy ideas. You've got to realize who you're dealing with here; people whose idea of a national energy policy is "Drill Baby Drill" don't have sufficient bandwidth to actually develop a meaningful stance on the issues.

People know what they like, even more they know what they hate, and politicians can just keep catering to that.

If you didn't know the Tim Tebow shoulda been aborted story, you could just as rightfully speculate that the story was about prayer and how that saved him from being in the dumpster.

Yes, but when the full story comes to light, or if you go to the website advertised, you'll find that's not what the ad is really about. Focus on the Family is a... well, according to Wikipedia,

an American evangelical tax-exempt non-profit organization founded in 1977 by psychologist James Dobson, and is based in Colorado Springs, Colorado. Focus on the Family is one of a number of evangelical parachurch organizations that rose to prominence in the 1980s. A component of the American Christian right, it is active in promoting interdenominational work toward its views on social conservative public policy.

Banning abortion is a cornerstone of Christian conservative public policy, for those who have not been paying close attention for the past few decades.

Just to make the connection, in case you're still missing it, again Wikipedia,

The group supports the teaching of "traditional family values". It advocates school sponsored prayer and supports corporal punishment.[11] It strongly opposes abortion, so-called militant feminism, homosexuality, pornography, legalized gambling[12], and pre-marital and extramarital sexual activity. Focus on the Family also embraces and reflects the wider political agenda of its audience, for instance promoting a religiously-centered conception of American identity and the support of Israel.

Focus on the Family maintains a strong pro-life stand against abortion, and provides grant funding and medical training to assist crisis pregnancy centers (also known as pregnancy resource centers) in obtaining ultrasound machines. According to the organization, this funding, which has allowed CPCs to provide pregnant women with live sonogram images of the developing fetus, has led directly to the birth of over 1500 babies who would have otherwise been aborted.


So yeah it's actually about abortion. Just in a round-about manner. Glad we could clear that up.


the far left is certainly pro-abortion.

No matter how many times you repeat that lie it remains a lie.

K?

Be Well.

#65 | Posted by dethspud

Spud, really? He said the Far-left not the left. Read it again and tell me you disagree.

First, read up on Margaret_Sanger before responding

You didn't read what I said. The ad was innocuous. But the Focus on the Family site they direct viewers to is about abortion, and the purpose of the group's campaign is to criminalize abortion. The Tebows want to criminalize abortion.

#74 | Posted by rcade

Who cares? Really! Who cares? There is a small percentage of voters who actually support this view.

the hype for this ad and the STUPID comments from the NAGS are the only things about this ad that are even remotely controversial.
what leftists women cant seem to understand is there are plenty of women in the us who dont want to kill thier own children.

"...what leftists women cant seem to understand is there are plenty of women in the us who dont want to kill thier own children."

Let me put the unbelievably illiterate Afka Babble at ease. NO one on the left = absolutely NO one - wants anyone to kill anyone. Let's just lay that ugly rhetoric to rest right now, shall we. herm

Wow you can speak for every person on the left?

"She and her son are with us today not just because of courage but because of luck."

Nonsense. You can say she is here because of luck. But obviously, if his mother was not willing to risk her life in order to carry her child until birth, Tim Tebow wouldn't be here. And risking your life takes courage.

Unless of course, the definition of "courage" has been changed to exclude actions that William Saletan finds personally disagreeable for cheap political reasons.......

To state that Mrs Tebow or even my very own mother were couragous in being willing to sacrifice themselves to bring another child of God in to this world causes most pro-abortion folks to go crazy

If we say that Mrs Tebow or my mother were couragous in their choice not to have an abortion what does that say about women who have abortions for other than life-threatening reasons?

Oh no no no.. we cant have that.. We've all got to say that every woman who has an abortion made the right choice for the right reason.. Well sorry, it dont work that way

When you make childish comments such as calling Pro-Life proponents "forced birthers", you abandon credibility.
Quite the reverse, in fact.

By refusing to deviate from accepted RW euphemisms you refuse to accept the simple truth that by denying women reproductive choice you are literally forcing women to bring a pregnancy to term.

Abortion, at its heart, is most definitely NOT an issue of "reproductive choice". It's an issue of biology, and more specifically the biology of Human development.

As I explained to snoofy in another thread, "fetus" is simply one stage of human development, as are "adolescent" and "geriatric". A "fetus" is a living human being, biologically speaking. Legally, the "fetus" is not a Person with recognized rights. This is the great flaw in abortion law: it ignores science in favor of expediency.

"Pro-Choice" is a euphemism, as is "Pro-Life". However, they are how the sides identify themselves, and they are more accurate than "forced birther" and "pro-abortion". Still, in order to be consistent, you'll have to refer to yourself as pro-abortion.

Most Republicans oppose abortion, but not everybody who opposes abortion is Republican. Using the terms interchangably, particularly when talking to a Pro-Life Democrat, doesn't help your argument.
Most Republicans are opposed to choice but not all.
Most Dems are for reproductive rights but not all.
That reality noted the vast bulk of money raised to make abortion illegal goes straight to the GOP. It's been a successful fund raiser and wedge issue fer them fer decades now. Not noting that reality is being disingenuous to the extreme.

You are missing the point by a few miles there. The bone of contention isn't that Republicans don't generally identify themselves as "Pro-Life". The bone of contention is that Pro-Life is not the same as Republican. Using them interchangeably is intellecutally lazy, and inaccurate. Much as if one referred to Feminists and Women interchangeably. Many women are Feminists, many Feminists are women- but they are not identical concepts.

For an individual to hold those positions doesn't strike me as logically consistent, I agree. However, blindly dismissing all Pro-Lifers because you're too lazy to distinguish between Republicans and Pro-Lifers isn't very bright.
Republicans are "Pro-Lifers" as a rule.
That there are exceptions to this rule does not discount that rule.
Not acknowledging this simple and obvious truth makes you look less than bright.
Be Well.

Why does your side of the argument so often deflect from the issue towards personal insults, I wonder?

Still, if we're casting judgements, your inability to think in terms more complicated than binary "Yes/No-Left/Right-Republican/
Democrat" doesn't exactly grant you the appearance of brilliance, or rationality.

Legally, the "fetus" is not a Person with recognized rights. This is the great flaw in abortion law: it ignores science in favor of expediency.

I wouldn't call that "expediency." Nor would I consider science alone a sufficient basis for determining law.

A key concept in the Roe decision is the notion of viability. The law is not unaware that a fetus grows into a person. The law seems strikingly aware, though, that what is commonly refereed to as a "person" and what is commonly referred to as a "fetus" are not the same thing.

The bone of contention is that Pro-Life is not the same as Republican.

No one equated the two. However it's certainly more congruent with Republican than Democrat.

So yeah it's actually about abortion. Just in a round-about manner. Glad we could clear that up.
#79 | POSTED BY SNOOFY

You didn't have to clear up jack shit... I know its a pro-life commercial in a back handed way, but what is your actual complaint? That its going to trick people into overturning Roe v. Wade. That we're going to overturn decades of established law because Tim Tebow had a great college career? Is that what you're saying? When Timmy flops in the NFL does that mean we'd make abortion legal again?

Clearly the only thing you, and AmericanUnity and RCade and all the rest are pissed about was that they don't CHOOSE to agree with you. It wasn't an offensive ad, it wasn't a judgmental ad, hell it was barely a pro-life ad. You guys were practically crapping yourselves thinking that Old Lady Tebow was going to be calling girls who have had abortions whores and that Jesus would get them.

Nope... sorry, and for getting this worked up over literally nothing, you guys look like complete clowns.

And I can't stress this enough, I hate Tim Tebow and wish his mom had listened to her doctors.

Legally, the "fetus" is not a Person with recognized rights. This is the great flaw in abortion law: it ignores science in favor of expediency.

I wouldn't call that "expediency."

Well, you've been wrong before.

Nor would I consider science alone a sufficient basis for determining law.

It is, however, sufficient basis for determining whether a human being exists. That humanity should be, in my opinion obviously, the determining factor in whether the "being" is protected. You've previously stated your disagreement with the notion that all human beings deserve equal legal protection, so we probably don't need to rehash that.

A key concept in the Roe decision is the notion of viability. The law is not unaware that a fetus grows into a person. The law seems strikingly aware, though, that what is commonly refereed to as a "person" and what is commonly referred to as a "fetus" are not the same thing.

"Person" being a legal term, it can be defined however the courts or legislators find most expedient. Regardless of the semantic games being played in legalization of abortion, it remains the killing of a human life. That the law doesn't recognize this is the great failing in the law- and it's the TRUE area of disagreement between Pro-Life and Pro-Choice; if one accepts the premise that abortion takes a human life, there is no reasonable basis on which to allow it. If one doesn't accept that premise, then it becomes a matter of "reproductive choice".

The bone of contention is that Pro-Life is not the same as Republican.
No one equated the two.

Untrue. It's been attempted several times, by AU, dethspud, and yourself.

It is progress, however, to see you acknowledge that the two are not one and the same.

whoops, forgot to add: Go 'NOles

Clearly the only thing you, and AmericanUnity and RCade and all the rest are pissed about was that they don't CHOOSE to agree with you. It wasn't an offensive ad, it wasn't a judgmental ad, hell it was barely a pro-life ad. You guys were practically crapping yourselves thinking that Old Lady Tebow was going to be calling girls who have had abortions whores and that Jesus would get them.

Nope... sorry, and for getting this worked up over literally nothing, you guys look like complete clowns

Despite the over-the-top manner in which you made your point, you hit the nail on the head.

This ad was much ado about nothing. Not remotely offensive, not even very effective.

snoofy
Legally, the "fetus" is not a Person with recognized rights.... The law seems strikingly aware, though, that what is commonly refereed to as a "person" and what is commonly referred to as a "fetus" are not the same thing.

You could replace fetus with negro and the argument you make could have been made 200 years ago. For years, blacks were not given the same legal rights as whites.

Basically, you saying that, while blacks were considered property, it was ok to kill them when you didn't want one hanging around the house.

It is, however, sufficient basis for determining whether a human being exists. That humanity should be, in my opinion obviously, the determining factor in whether the "being" is protected. You've previously stated your disagreement with the notion that all human beings deserve equal legal protection, so we probably don't need to rehash that.

You mischaracterize my words.

The point is not whether human beings deserve equal protection. It's whether a (non-viable) fetus (or blastocyst) meets the legal threshold of "human being." And, it's about the freedom of the person carrying the fetus to do as they please. There are competing interests, and granting protection to one necessarily intrudes upon the rights of the other. If not, then all pregnancies amount to involuntary servitude, which flies in the face of the Bill of Rights.

Regardless of the semantic games being played in legalization of abortion, it remains the killing of a human life.

No one denies this. People are simply aware of the differences between human life outside the womb and within, with a key discriminant being viability. A distinction which you seem unable to grasp.

That the law doesn't recognize this is the great failing in the law- and it's the TRUE area of disagreement between Pro-Life and Pro-Choice; if one accepts the premise that abortion takes a human life, there is no reasonable basis on which to allow it.

This is completely wrong. Abortion takes a human life. Roe realizes this too. What both I and Roe recognize is that a person has a Ninth Amendment right to carry out their pregnancy as they see fit, at least until the quickening, at which point the State's interest in protecting the welfare of its... people gains more traction.

This ad was much ado about nothing. Not remotely offensive, not even very effective.

I was reading in USA Today web traffic to Focus On The Family is up 40x. So, I disagree with you there too.

if one accepts the premise that abortion takes a human life, there is no reasonable basis on which to allow it.

Not true, an obvious reason to allow abortion is to protect the life of the mother. Otherwise you aren't valuing human life equally.

It is, however, sufficient basis for determining whether a human being exists. That humanity should be, in my opinion obviously, the determining factor in whether the "being" is protected. You've previously stated your disagreement with the notion that all human beings deserve equal legal protection, so we probably don't need to rehash that.

You mischaracterize my words.

Not at all. In fact, after typing that, you went on to reaffirm it:

The point is not whether human beings deserve equal protection. It's whether a (non-viable) fetus (or blastocyst) meets the legal threshold of "human being."

The unborn child clearly meets the biological threshold, as I've already explained to you. Lawyers, judges, and legislators approach things from a different perspective, with an eye toward expediency.

And, it's about the freedom of the person carrying the fetus to do as they please.

A right which ends at the point where they choose to intentionally harm or extinguish the life of another.

There are competing interests, and granting protection to one necessarily intrudes upon the rights of the other.

As is the case throughout our legal system. The basic building block of society is a recognition that each human being has certain responsibilities to others- some of which we explicitly choose, some of which are simply "the way it is". I might wish to shoot guns in my back yard, but am not allowed to do so because of the harm this could cause my neighbors.

If not, then all pregnancies amount to involuntary servitude, which flies in the face of the Bill of Rights.

Using that contorted (and fallacious) logic, parenthood itself flies in the face of the Bill of Rights, because all parents have duties to their children which will, in fact, be enforced by the government if necessary.

Regardless of the semantic games being played in legalization of abortion, it remains the killing of a human life.
No one denies this.

Abortion advocates such as yourself deny it all the time. "It's not a human being, it's a fetus", etc.

People are simply aware of the differences between human life outside the womb and within, with a key discriminant being viability.

Again, that's a lawyer's distinction, not a biologist's. And viability was selected for expediency. Period.

A distinction which you seem unable to grasp.

Grasp? Yes.

Accept? No.

My cousin the quadraplegic isn't "viable" either, without machinery and human assistance. But I think we both recognize his basic right to life.

That the law doesn't recognize this is the great failing in the law- and it's the TRUE area of disagreement between Pro-Life and Pro-Choice; if one accepts the premise that abortion takes a human life, there is no reasonable basis on which to allow it.
This is completely wrong. Abortion takes a human life. Roe realizes this too. What both I and Roe recognize is that a person has a Ninth Amendment right to carry out their pregnancy as they see fit, at least until the quickening, at which point the State's interest in protecting the welfare of its... people gains more traction.

As I said, and you demonstrated- if one accepts the premise that abortion takes a human life, there is no REASONABLE basis on which to allow it.

This ad was much ado about nothing. Not remotely offensive, not even very effective.
I was reading in USA Today web traffic to Focus On The Family is up 40x. So, I disagree with you there too.

I assume you disagree on the "effectiveness" of the ad, rather than the "offensiveness", since nobody can rationally point to anything offensive in the ad itself.

As it its effectiveness, I hope you're right, but I suspect that sans the faux-controversy abortion advocates have drummed up over the add is what actually has driven people to the web site.

Regardless, surely even a die-hard "Pro-Choice" person such as yourself would acknowledge that if the ad leads some women to choose not to terminate the life of their unborn child, that's not a bad thing.

Right?

if one accepts the premise that abortion takes a human life, there is no reasonable basis on which to allow it.

Not true, an obvious reason to allow abortion is to protect the life of the mother. Otherwise you aren't valuing human life equally.

Intentionally sacrificing one life to save another isn't valuing them equally.

As a matter of conscience, it is (or should be) a physician's responsibility to do his/her best to save both lives.

KEN

You're free to your opinions and to engage in word games, but you're not entitled to your own facts. My comments are not about this ad, which is merely a 'Dobson Lite' pitch. On the larger issue, the poll of two thousand randomly selected Republican voters (only) are clear. So is the GOP party platform:

"The Republican Party platform this year will reassert the party's opposition to abortion. And again it will not allow for exceptions in the cases of rape, incest or to save the life of the mother..."

G.O.P. Holds to Firm Stance on Abortion

Overturning Roe vs Wade will not end abortion. It'll mean a return to unsafe backroom procedures.

KEN

The GOP don't agree with you on saving the mother's life. See the quote above?

KEN
The GOP don't agree with you on saving the mother's life. See the quote above?

And I'll ask again- why on Earth would I care about what the GOP says "don't" agree with me on, and what does it have to do with the conversation you and I are having?

AU,

overturning Roe vs Wade won't even end legal abortion.

GOP hold to firm stance on abortion.

so what? Do you see the absurdity of this? the emotional aspect of the abortion debate is so high that people actualy give weight to what John McCain says about it. GWB SAID he was against it too? and he had a republican congress and senate......make a difference? not from where I am standing.

DEN

You said: "Intentionally sacrificing one life to save another isn't valuing them equally."

The GOP's platform is in total disagreement with you on that. Under no circumstances including: "...or to save the life of the mother.."

Ending legal abortion isn't going to end abortions. In the Philippines, where they're illegal, 20-25% of women end up in the hospital after an illegal abortion. Study up on what was going on here before Roe vs Wade. Unsanitary backroom abortions that put far more women's lives in danger.

Eb

Earlier in this thread I pointed out that since Robert Bork, a main 'litmus test' of SCOTUS nominees is their stance on Roe vs Wade. The GOP's platform stands in opposition. GOP candidates profess an anti-choice stance by and large. If there isn't a concerted effort to end a legal right to choose, what would you call it?

Eb

It's not unreasonable that a report on the GOP platform coming out of a convention would include the thoughts if their party's Presidential candidate, is it?

Overturning Roe vs Wade will not end abortion. It'll mean a return to unsafe backroom procedures.

#99 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY

Just like making rape or incest illegal doesn't stop them, either. So, you propose we make those legal as well?

As for the "in the cases of rape, incest or to save the life of the mother..." This is crap. If a girl gets knocked up and is told she can't have an abortion unless it was rape, then she will cry rape if she wants to have an abortion. And if it was LIFE of the mother, then almost everyone on the right woud agree... its the "health" of the mother argument that turns off the right... there were women who used such arguments as it would interfere with going to a party or they would get fat.

Abortion ends a life. It should not be used because both parents were to lazy to do anything to prevent a child.

The GOP's platform stands in opposition. GOP candidates profess an anti-choice stance by and large.

yeah..........................
..............................
..............................
..............................
.....I know.

you don't need to point that out.

you still don't get it.

nevermind.

stay stupid.

You said: "Intentionally sacrificing one life to save another isn't valuing them equally."

The GOP's platform is in total disagreement with you on that. Under no circumstances including: "...or to save the life of the mother.."

And I'll ask again- so what?

Abortions being legal dont help with the Lady upstairs. She knows what was behind the choice to take another human life and She judges accordingly.

Maybe you'll get another chance and maybe you wont, but, dont assume that whatever choice a woman makes with regards to that baby is the right one

Just like making rape or incest illegal doesn't stop them, either. So, you propose we make those legal as well?

1LIBERTARIAN

As a self ID'd "Libertarian", are you aware of the Libertarian Party's position? Here's a link:

Libertarian Party positions on the Issues

EBERLY, there's little point having a debate with you. Highlights of your post to someone yesterday about resorting to insults:

YOU: 'bullshit pussy assignment' - 'from libtards' - fucking morons. all of you.'

CLOSING WITH "who can't make an argument otherwise."

"Do as I say, not as I do"?

I 'get' the fact the GOP platform is opposed to abortion - even to save the life of the mother. For 30 years they've been focused on 'moral issues', using litmus tests on abortion to screen candidates and nominees. Their aim is clear: Overturn Roe vs Wade and make abortion illegal.

I 'get' the fact the GOP platform is opposed to abortion - even to save the life of the mother.

#111 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2010-02-09 06:49 PM

The lies of a liar. No facts, no links. Just hate and stupidity. And Racism.

No, I think the goal is to overturn Roe vs. Wade and allow the states to make the decisions rendered to the state.

MIDTOWNCOWBOY

No exceptions. Good rule when 'debating': Inform yourself before typing.

GOP 2008 Platform on Abortion: No exceptions

The lies of a liar. No facts, no links. Just hate and stupidity. And Racism.

MIDTOWNCOWBOY

-Lies? Only if the GOP is lying.

-I provided facts. There's your link - information available to you or anyone else 24/7/365 - no one's stopping you.

-Facts are facts. If you consider the GOP's position hateful, take it up with them.

-Stupidity? That's typing and looking like a fool, as you successfully just did.

-WTF does racism have to do with abortion?

#115 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2010-02-09 09:35 PM | Reply | Flag:

You provide a link to a leftist newspaper and make that as a statement of fact. I will give you a link to the actual GOP position and I challenge you to find a reference to back up the claims made by the Times. Until then, you are spreading a lie, which makes you a liar.

www.gop.com

MIDTOWNCOWBOY

When you can't attack the facts attack the messenger? How typical.

#117 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2010-02-09 09:55 PM | Reply | Flag:

You damn fool, I provided the facts to your ignorant ass. Read them. Until then STFU you idiot.

Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., faces enormous pressure from social conservatives to ignore his repeated commitment to change the GOP's platform on abortion.

Abortion rights

"If he were to change the party platform," to account for exceptions such as rape, incest or risk to the mother's life, "I think that would be political suicide," said Tony Perkins, the president of the conservative Family Research Council, to ABC News. "I think he would be aborting his own campaign because that is such a critical issue to so many Republican voters and the Republican brand is already in trouble."

A senior Republican close to McCain told ABC News that building a more inclusive GOP is a top priority for the Arizona senator.

But this adviser does not see changing the party platform to include exceptions for rape, incest, and the life of the mother as necessary for achieving that vision.

abcnews.go.com

Let me guess, ABC News is "leftist" for reporting the same ... facts. God, you're obtuse. The GOP did NOT change the stated position they've had since the 80's.

You damn fool, I provided the facts

No, you didn't. You didn't even read it. You provided a link. I, on the other hand, actually read the segment on abortion There was NO change to the long held 'no exceptions' stand on abortion. They did include 'counseling' (sic) to rape victims as a good thing.

#120 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2010-02-09 10:05 PM | Reply | Flag:

So you claim you read the GOP platform and there was a segment on abortion?

I provided you a link to a pdf containing the GOP platform of 2008. I searched for abortion, and no where in the document was the mention any thing you are referencing. It looks like you are caught in yet another lie. You can't back up the claims made by the NYTimes, and you continue to assert these claims as facts. Which makes you a liar.

#120 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2010-02-09 10:05 PM | Reply | Flag:

search this document for abortion and show us where 'no exceptions' is mentioned or implied.

platform.gop.com

Explain why there would be hundreds of articles about McCain's opposition to the GOP's 'no exceptions' stance if the GOP's position wasn't 'no exceptions'. You quite evidently are clueless how party platforms work.

Unless and until a stated position is specifically amended or changed, prior stated positions stand. It was very 'compassionate conservative' of them to suggest pregnant rape victims have access to counseling.

Well, pahdner, I'm gonna ride to another thread. Debating people who don't know what they're talking is like talking to a horse's ass. No offense.

#123 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY at 2010-02-09 10:28 PM | Reply | Flag:

The Facts: 1) I provided you with a copy of the GOP 2008 platform.

2) The platform contains no reference or implied reference to "no exception" regarding abortions.

3) The platform has several references to providing choice to women.

4) You cannot support your claim that the GOP 2008 platform contains a "no exception" statement against all abortions.

Unless and until a stated position is specifically amended or changed, prior stated positions stand.
A statement like this shows what a complete dumbass you are and why you would blindly vote for democrats and parrot the lies they tell. You have not demonstrated the capacity to have an original thought.

Being pro-choice I found nothing nefarious about the ad it just shows one side of the abortion issue. Also the only thing it might change are a few minds (highly unlikely though) it certainly wont have any effect on law.

What's even more laughable is the fact that NOW says the ad promotes violence against women.

I'm not a strong proponent of the death penalty having seen personally how it affects families on both sides. That being said if you can't understand how people can differentiate between what they perceive to be killing an innocent human being and punishing a menace to society it may say more about you.

4) You cannot support your claim that the GOP 2008 platform contains a "no exception" statement against all abortions.

What the hell do you think:

Faithful to the first guarantee of the Declaration of Independence, we assert the inherent dignity and sanctity of all human life and affirm that the unborn child has a fundamental individual right to life which cannot be infringed. We support a human life amendment to the Constitution, and we endorse legislation to make clear that the Fourteenth Amendment's protections apply to unborn children.

means? The ramifications of what the GOP proposes in their platform are stunning and wide reaching.

Do you know why they propose amending the 14th Amendment?

Because it explicitly states that rights are granted to the born.

...which cannot be infringed.

#124 | Posted by midtowncowboy

Maybe YAV can explain it to you. You have yet to explain why hundreds of articles were written on 2008's McCain vs GOP 'no exceptions' stance.

BTW, I don't blindly vote Democratic. In fact, I voted for Lamar Alexander for Senator. Thought he was a good governor too and voted for him twice then. I'm sorry he's turned into a unanimous 'no' like the rest of the obstructionist clowns. Won't vote for him again. He doesn't understand what a 'majority' is in a Democracy.

BTW - what I italicized was copy and pasted directly from the GOP Platform 2008.

#126 | Posted by YAV

Cowboys dont rede multapull silliball werds. Espessiley wen thier there own lincs.

The real truth about the Tebow ad. Stupidest Protest Ever.

As a self ID'd "Libertarian", are you aware of the Libertarian Party's position...

#110 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY

Yes... but unlike some people, I don't feel a need to march in lock-step with a party. I agree with the Libertarian Party on the majority of their platform, however. Much more than I do with either the dem or gop.

My opinion on abortion is that one of the ONLY valid duties of gov't is to protect life... and that an unborn child is alive. Where you get into trouble is when people try to determine where the line between life and property should be drawn. Do you get rights at 21? At 18? On your 5th birthday? Is it the moment you first breath air? When you can survive outside the womb? When the heart starts? When brain activity begins? When the child has a unique set of dna?

Personally, I don't KNOW when life begins... at what moment it gets a soul (if you believe in such a thing)... and as such, any decision might be wrong. Just like I am pro-death penalty in theory, and anti-death penalty in practice (can you ever know that NO ONE who is innocent would be put to death?)...

You want to do drugs? Go for it. You want to be straigh, gay or have a thing for hamsters? Shove anything up your ass you want to... I don't care. Terminate a human life? You loose me on that one.

So, do you march in lock-step (goose-step) with your party leaders?

1LIB

Those holding adamant 'pro-life' views in Congress are the same folks, for instance, who voted against SCHIPS to provide health insurance to millions of kids in the U.S., and would like to dismantle practically every safety net U.S. citizens have when times get tough.

Life seems to end at birth in all too many of their eyes. That's the problem I have with taking that crowd seriously. Words are free, action is action. 700,000 kids in foster homes no one will adopt. Nope. They'd rather go to China to get a baby. Makes one wonder if 6 mos or a year is the cutoff point when the millions who've demonstrated, write on blogs, etc. consider life as no longer worthy or their time, trouble, or taxpayer dollars.

worthy of their time, trouble, or taxpayer dollars.

AU-
Gotta disagree, my friend. Pro-lifers are among the most giving sorts. We want is to protect the unborn because no one else will and they can't help themselves.

We want personal accountability and not to have the nanny-state take over our life. That doesn't mean it's an all-or-nothing proposition... of course there should be some assistance, but we object to an ever-encroaching government reach. Can you see our/my point with that? At what point does "assistance" become perpetual enabling?

As for those in foster homes, liberals are just as welcome to adopt them as I would be... and, I suspect, libs are just as quick to look for kids outside the US as cons would be, no? If that's the case, it isn't fair to pin that on my side.

Life seems to end at birth in all too many of their eyes. That's the problem I have with taking that crowd seriously

Perhaps you'd have more luck thinking reasonably if you stopped viewing and judging people as interchangeable robots and started thinking of them as individuals; or, even better, judging their arguments on its merits rather than your personal biases.

As for those in foster homes, liberals are just as welcome to adopt them as I would be... and, I suspect, libs are just as quick to look for kids outside the US as cons would be, no? If that's the case, it isn't fair to pin that on my side.

Not to mention the absurdity of the argument itself... Does one have to open one's home to the homeless in order to think murdering the homeless is a bad idea?

Are only Pro-Life people adopting babies, while Pro-Choice couples who adopt actively seek older kids?

Are there no Pro-Life people hosting foster kids (which is, by the way, an example of taking an older child into their home)?

IRONY BELLS GO OFF:

The ad clearly says she had a choice and made it.

FOTF Policy clearly states that they are Pro-Life, and 'no choice' is their goal.

Taking away a woman's right to choose would have ended up very poorly for the soon-to-be teabaggger Mr. Teabow.

Leave it to a moron christian to not even understanding the context of his/her/its own position.

Taking away a woman's right to choose would have ended up very poorly for the soon-to-be teabaggger Mr. Teabow

How would outlawing abortion in the United States have negatively affected Tim "Teabow"?

Ah, the old 'Nanny State' argument...

The GOP fought Civil Rights, Medicare, Medicaid and recently SCHIPS for kids and Health Care coverage for millions of Americans. Thousands lose their coverage every week - many seriously ill. But, the GOP would rather score political points by saying 'NO'.

Value adults lives as much as embryos and he 'Pro-life' POV can be taken seriously.

AU-
The government can't be all things to all people and you realize that. Well, I suspect it could be, but that would be the end of our society as we know it. Is that where this thing is headed?

On your recent points SCHIPS/Health Care coverage... there are very valid reasons why those Dem proposals were bad policy.

It's a common political tactic to load a bunch of stuff into a bill... so that when someone votes against the bill, the opposition can say, "see, those guys want to hurt kids... or see, these people don't support our troops, etc."

We're reaching (or have reached) a major tipping point in our society. We're coming to the realization that we can't have everything. Government will, necessarily, have to scale back if we're to retain a semblance of hope for our future way of life. It simply can't go on indefinitely.

So, difficult choices will have to be made. Would you agree?

"We're coming to the realization that we can't have everything."

Hell, Andy Jackson figured that out. He left office with the United States ~$18,000 in debt, IIRC.

zfacts.com

sigh

#141 | POSTED BY OOHRAH
"We're coming to the realization that we can't have everything. Government will, necessarily, have to scale back if we're to retain a semblance of hope for our future way of life. It simply can't go on indefinitely. "

Different folks come to that realization at different times for different reasons.
And for some, the threshold of acceptibility is a lot lower than for others.
Some want the government to provide a lot more, some a lot less.
I think, as usual, that "somewhere in between" is the best way to go, provided it's done carefully and wisely, fiscally speaking.

I'd say we really get very little from our government, at various levels.
Roads, schools, armed forces, post office, etc.
But really not a whole lot.
Maybe some get a lot more than I do, I don't know.
But do I think there's room for more? Absolutely.

To me, it's not a question of how much you get, but rather how it's gotten, and for what reasons.
And of course, how is it being paid for?

The Dems fought themselves over Healthcare not the Republicans. The Republicans listened to the polls. The American people didn't approve of exempting unions that backed Obama from paying taxes of Cadillac plans, the Louisiana purchase, the Cornhusker Kickback, $100 million to build a hospital in Ct. The far left would never vote for it becuse they want to make sure the American people are paying for abortions and they hated the Stupak amendment. The Dems were their own worst nightmare.

My healthcare premiums did not go up one cent. As a matter of fact I have no premiums. My employer picks up the monthly costs.

OOHRAH

Of course government can't be all things to all people.

But, GOP politicians touting their 'Pro-life' credentials should extend those sentiments to children and adults too, right? Or are embryos the only 'life' they value? Oppose programs to keep people living can't be considered anything like valuing the ' sanctity of life.'

AU-
Am I opposing programs to keep people from living? I support the pro-life position because I see it as the pre-meditated killing of another human... and an utterly defenseless & innocent human at that.

I'd feel the same way if you snuffed out your two year old.

Pro life means, to me, giving one the opportunity to live... to advocate for the chance for that child to survive when it would otherwise perish in an intentional way. We're not guaranteeing the kid will grow up to "be somebody" or be a bum. But the kid gets a shot at life.

It does not extend to having the government step in for the rest of your life to provide for your every need. That's where the accountability comes in. Sure, there'll be the invalids and others who'll need more care. Again, I'm not arguing that all gov't assistance be abandoned. I think it's a false argument that because we want to protect those who'd be murdered that we therefore are coldhearted to the plight of those already born. It's simply not the case.

To turn the tables for a moment, if your side is so compassionate, why not also be pro-life... or don't they matter? And if they don't matter, then at what point DO they matter? What of induced labor, what of Cesarean section and that sort of thing? Is it not a defenseless person being allowed to live? Interesting dialogue.

Regardless of the semantic games being played in legalization of abortion, it remains the killing of a human life.
...
Abortion advocates such as yourself deny it all the time. "It's not a human being, it's a fetus", etc.

I see a difference between "human life" and "human being."

It's the same difference I see between "dough" and "bread."

My cousin the quadraplegic isn't "viable" either, without machinery and human assistance. But I think we both recognize his basic right to life.

That's an unfair comparison. A severely disabled person is an exceptional case, far from the norm. But every fetus is at some point non-viable.

if one accepts the premise that abortion takes a human life, there is no REASONABLE basis on which to allow it.

Don't freak out that I'm putting words in your mouth again, but I think you mean no BIOLOGICAL basis. There are plenty of reasonable legal bases by which taking of a human life is permitted, such as self-defense. Such as the right of a person to defend themselves with deadly force from a fetus or person which is killing them.

And, biology is not the sole reason for law. There's nothing biologically important that happens on a person's 18th birthday, but that's when the law says they become adults.

By contrast, there are many important biological things which happen when a person is born, so the legal distinction between "fetus" and "person" has a much greater biological basis than the legal difference between "child" and "adult."

I think it's a false argument that because we want to protect those who'd be murdered that we therefore are coldhearted to the plight of those already born.

Well, you seem to be a strong advocate against the killing of the unborn.

What advocacy do you engage in against the killing of the born?

The impression I have is that the anti-abortion movement is more concerned with controlling women and, more broadly, enforcing traditional gender roles in male-dominated society than protecting human life from being killed.

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