I doubt it'll ever happen now. Too many greedy fuckers that don't care about others. I got mine fuck you if you didn't get yours. He should have forced it through. When will Obama learn to stop trying to negotiate and start legislating. I wanted a hard shift to the left and Obama isn't delivering.

I agree with Rcade.

The Dems screw this pooch this close to the finish line and it's all over for them.

"I wanted a hard shift to the left and Obama isn't delivering."

:-)

Praying to God... fingers crossed... knocking on wood... throwing change in wishing wells.

Here's hoping Obama is right

What an amazing 12 months it's been.

If they don't get significant healthcare changes passed with all of the advantages the Dems had, it won't happen in a generation.

Huge majorities, high poll numbers (early on), a seemingly competent president, and even the ability to look at lessons learned from the early Clinton attempt.

And a pesky 'independent' who's state already has universal coverage through 'Charter Oak'. Why Lieberman care about anyone else he figures ....

Health care industry executives, Republicans, and Tea Partiers are high-fiving like they've won the Superbowl. Congratulations, America lost.

Congratulations, America lost.

Nope... won. You're just too drunk on kool-aid to realize how bad the bill was.

"how bad the bill was."

What would a "good" bill have been?

The Dems certainly hold a lot of responsibility for a shitty bill, and its failure. The fact remains, those I mentioned are the ones actively cheering about it. And you will not see any reasonable solution from them either.

As bad as they were, the Dem bills were still better than the status quo.

What would a "good" bill have been?

#9 | POSTED BY DANFORTH

A good bill would have been short, not a thousand pages or more. First it would have cut out the shady practices of Insurance companies, such as cutting people off when they get sick, or excluding them for pre-existing conditions. A good bill would have also found a way to get the uninsured a way to buy insurance for themselves, not give it to them because most Americans don't feel like paying the bills of other able bodied Americans. It would have also made health care more efficient by modernizing records and equipment (computers and such). It also would have really dealt with tort reform (not just the Obama lip service). Defensive medicine is rampant among surgeons.

What it shouldn't have done is brought the government into the doctors office. Primary Care/Family practice doctors should be punished for referring sick/injured patients to specialists for treatment. In this bill they are. There should never have been an "Independent Payment Advisory Board" to fuck with a doctors finances. In this bill there is.

There also shouldn't have been massive bribes for senators just to get them on board. It should have been quick hitting and simple. Actually the best thing for the DNC to have done would have been lots and lots of bills on HC reform, not just one. Start with the easy stuff (pre-existing conditions and the like) and move up to the hard stuff (public options). The dozens of successes and legislative momentum would have passed the vast majority of what's in the bill.

the Dem bills were still better than the status quo.

#11 | POSTED BY WHATSLEFT

Let's say the status quo is drunk driving. Would adding heroin to the experience make it better or worse? The status quo can often be the lesser of two evils. Certainly was in this case.

Primary Care/Family practice doctors should be punished for referring sick/injured patients to specialists for treatment

that should be, "shouldn't be punished," sorry

ROB

Did you see the links I posted to the House and Senate bills yesterday? I was wondering if you'd perused them yourself.

AU, have I read the thousands of pages in the HC reform bills? No. I'm around doctors every single day, more specifically surgeons. They're dead set against it. Not just against it, they are fucking pissed off. Now everyone on the Left can think this is a great bill, hell Bill Frist can think its the greatest piece of legislation ever crafted in the history of these United States.

But what all of you who support this bill forget is that its not President Obama, or the Congress, or the lawyers or the 30,000,000 uninsured who will treat us when we are sick and hurt. Its the doctors. And while the AMA and primary care doctors support this, the dirty secret in medicine is if a pill can't fix you, then your Primary care doc can't fix you. It has to go to a specialist, and that means you have to pony up the cash.

American College of Surgeons and 18 other groups representing specialist docs are against it. You really want to focus on that, before supporting this piece of crap bill.

Under "Patient Protectios":

Patient Protections
 The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act protects patients' choice of doctors by
allowing plan members to pick any participating primary care provider, prohibiting insurers
from requiring prior authorization before and woman sees an ob-gyn, and ensuring access to
emergency care. This provision takes effect six months after enactment and applies to all
new plans.

As bad as they were, the Dem bills were still better than the status quo.

No they weren't.

They would have forced most Americans to buy a product that was demonstrably more shitty than the one they had.

Furthermore, the bills were ideological circle-jerks that had nothing to do with health care and everything to do with with creating a permanent shift in the American political culture.

If this fucking left wing scum gave an actual shit about access to health care, they would have attempted something more pragmatic and palatable to a nation of citizens whose political culture has evolved over 200+ years of sanctifying the primacy of the individual over the state and free markets over Command and Control social engineering.

Now they've been told to go fuck themselves by the American people.

Its quite gratifying, and I'm looking forward to November.

I'm also looking forward to the default explanation always offered by liberal shit when their faces are rubbed in their own un-American legislation: Americans are just too fucking stupid to understand all the wonderful things our Progressive Vanguards are trying to do for us. Why do we vote against our own interests? *sigh*

What a wonderful and spectacular failure.

Heck of a job, Yeller!

ROB

There's been a lot of misinformation bandied about. Thought you'd be interested in that section summary.

This bill actually increases a woman's right to pre and neonatal care and access to OB-GYN's.

I think one separate area that needs to be addressed is subsidizing malpractice insurance to OB-GYN's.

the dirty secret in medicine is if a pill can't fix you, then your Primary care doc can't fix you. It has to go to a specialist, and that means you have to pony up the cash.

Most insured need prior approval from insurance companies now to see a specialist. This bill addresses that, and as I posted, specifically affirms a woman's right to see an OB-GYN without prior approval by her insurer.

They had to bribe Senators to vote for this bill, and they excluded Unions from the Cadillac Tax provision.

When the average American looks at the above, they say to themselves something doesn't look right, and they didn't support it.

The average voter is not that smart, but also not as dumb as the Democrats think they are.

When the average American looks at the above, they say to themselves something doesn't look right, and they didn't support it.

The public was falsely told this was a 'government takeover' of health care. An utter lie.

A 'public option' polled 57-77% approval in every single poll by reputable firms.

The average voter is not that smart, but also not as dumb as the Democrats think they are.

True. But, the average FauxNews hound is as dumb as the Democrats thing they are. "Secret Muslim terrorist", "He's out to destroy this country", "He's not a citizen", and all the other ridiculous right wing memes are nothing but wishful illusions repeated ad nauseum.

Furthermore, the bills were ideological circle-jerks that had nothing to do with health care and everything to do with with creating a permanent shift in the American political culture.

#19 | Posted by Jak_Se_Mao at 2010-02-06 12:12 AM |

The only shift would have been 30 million from uninsured to insured status. Trust fund baby proves more and more he wouldn't have made it if not born with a silver spoon in his mouth. You speak so hard to conceal the coward inside you. I've seen it countless times. A lot of guys were like you at Ft. Bliss. They talked hard until the gauntlet was laid down and then they punked out like little bitches. I have no doubt you have done the same thing many times in your miserable life.

#23 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY
True. But, the average FauxNews hound is as dumb as the Democrats thing they are. "Secret Muslim terrorist", "He's out to destroy this country", "He's not a citizen", and all the other ridiculous right wing memes are nothing but wishful illusions repeated ad nauseum.

------------------------------
-----

Writing that the average FauxNews hound is as dumb as the Democrats think they are is no different than saying Obama is not an American citizen.

But go ahead keep on believing

This bill actually increases a woman's right to pre and neonatal care and access to OB-GYN's.

there is a lot of good stuff in the bill AU. Unfortunately, Democrats also decided to put a lot of their ideology and flat out stupidity into the bill.

AU, how are you going to get anyone to be a highly trained specialist if you screw with what they're making? Yeah, it would be great if doctors were actually angelic creatures who only work to help their fellow man, but guess what... they're not. They're humans just like you and I, and you're not going to get another person to go hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt and then on top of that train for years at 80+ hours a week for shit pay if there is no financial reward at the end of the tunnel.

They should scrap this piece of shit bill, beak out the good, scrap the bad and actually help Americans.

What would a "good" bill have been?

#9 | Posted by Danforth

Lets start with tort reform and allowing companies to cross state lines. We could work in getting rid of the tax breaks oft companies that provide insurance.

How about JUST making insurance transportable across state lines and fixing the preexisting conditions stuff.

This is understandable, not a trillion dollar budget buster and can get bipartisan support...The People Win...........................
..............................
.............................. The Democrats Win/Republicans Win.

PLEASE NOTE: I put the people in front of the line and the parties a DISTANT second.

Lets start with tort reform and allowing companies to cross state lines.

Just eliminate lawyers from the process and create a set "menu" so to speak of payments per type of screwup. This is just my personal opinion and obviously could use more detail but why not something like:

Death: relatives would receive the patients annual salary for the amount of time that person had left until say age 70 (when they maybe would have retired anyways) plus 10 million dollars. Possible revocation of medical license.

Dismemberment/Handicapped: Again you get your salary until a reasonable retirement age, plus 5 million dollars. Possible revocation of medical license.

Recoverable injury: obviously all corrective surgeries are covered, paid for any time away from work, all rehab covered.

Now sure there would be more categories and more to do, but it absolutely removes lawyers from the equation and removes the patients from seeing doctors as a walking lottery ticket. Would solve a lot of problems, especially in regards to surgery.

Last night I saw a volvo with the following bumper stickers as I was playing in traffic:

"Bacon is meat candy"

"Healthcare is a right"

hrm.... Wonder if one explains the other?

the corporate payoff might not go through....

there is no left.

Let me start by saying that I didn't vote for Obama. I had concerns about him - mostly that I did not see anything in him that said he knew how to be a leader. He gave good speeches and made people feel good, but I never got the sense that he was the type to get out in front of an issue and lead.
I think that they way he mishandled the health care debate bears that out. Rather than come up with a clear set of proposals, he sat back and let the House and Senate leaders do it. The result was a complete cluster-f.
I really think that this illustrates Obama's real flaw - he was (and I suspect, still is) afraid to actually put his fingerprints on anything, so that he can't bear any blame when it does not work. I have no doubt that had a bill been sent up for his signature, he would have had no problem taking credit for it, though.
And now, he seems to be laying blame on Congress for the failure to pass a health care bill - so again he can say it's not his fault.
Not exactly the change people were looking for, is it? I really think the only way we get out of this mess is, come November, we wipe the slate clean and vote out every single incumbent in Congress. And if they screw up and get nothing done, get rid of them two years later.

Lets start with tort reform and allowing companies to cross state lines. We could work in getting rid of the tax breaks oft companies that provide insurance.

#27 | Posted by Sniper at 2010-02-06 12:21 PM | Reply | Flag:

Sad part is premiums increase annually in direct proportion to claims payments. The national average MLR (premiums collected:claims payments) is around 85%. Truth is there is very little low handing fruit to pick of the insurance carriers. Sure knocking down pre-ex may knock a point off the MLR, but insignificantly.

That being said, what really needs solution is the COST of health CARE. Unfortunately, many "socialized" medicine countries manage this with physician "gateways", rationing, wage management, etc. All of these have been tried in one form or another here by ins. co's with little success because Americans simply do not like to be told what they can and cannot have.

The more this debate drags on, the more I am convinced that there is no bipartisan umbrella solution to fix all the issues with American healthcare. I do believe that if politicians on the hill gave a shit about the public they could come up with a series of smaller measures that would garner public support in droves.

For example: a state by state exchange for buying plans - this could save easily 5-10% off many policies by cutting out the agents.

Perhaps even open the FEHP (government plan) to the citizens - it is a privately run fully insured plan with such a large pool that the currently uninsureds' impact on total premiums would be negligible.

The only death panels were for Obamacare, so it happens.

32 | Posted by IslandGuy

Couldn't agree more---very similar to my feelings and postings.

Obamacare is not reform, it's just adding on to the existing problem of deficit spending!

Please let it die, O'Loudmouth that will be the most important thing you have ever yet done in your ignoramus career you have ever done to date, believe me, believe me, believe me.......

Let it die...
Let it die...
Let it die...
Let it die...
And ask God FOR givness...

You know what I don't get? How do you guarantee healthcare as a right? To say the one man has the "right" to healthcare, regardless of cost, is to say that another man has the responsibility to provide it, regardless of whether or not they are compensated for their service.

So what happens when the doctors tire of providing free healthcare? Obviously, without the ability to provide medical services, the government would be in violation of whatever piece of legislature had established healthcare as a right. Could a president be charged with a consititutional breach? What about congress? What about the doctors? Would they have a constitutional obligation to provide said services, on pain of punishment?

"For example: a state by state exchange for buying plans - this could save easily 5-10% off many policies by cutting out the agents."

I think that the biggest cost decreased could be achieved by standardizing prices for medical care. If you look at your next doctor's bill, you will see that they charge one amount, I think that $400 is probably about average. The insurance company will pay an entirely different, much lower amount, For a $400 bill, they might pay between $100-$133 dollars. I always monitor mine, and the difference is usually about 60-75%. I believe that Maryland has already enacted such laws.

If you could cut medical costs by that much, you wouldn't even need an insurance plan, outside of a possible catastrophic option.

Pigs at the Trough.

You know what I don't get? How do you guarantee healthcare as a right?

Bring cash

This won't affect me in the least. Being that I live in Mass and I do well for myself...

....but I find it ironic that it will hurt the right-wingers in dying towns that rail against this, all as their jobs went overseas because the company couldn't afford healthcare costs. Way to go!

First, kill the lawyers.

Second, have people pay for their own care, and use health insurance just like you do fire or flood insurance. They are for BIG and unexpected things... not when you want to repaint a room or get new carpet. For years, I did not have health insurance. I often negotiated prices for such things as routine doctors visits and dental work. Usually, when the doctor or dentist office found out they didn't have to mess with paperwork or wait for their money, the rates were MUCH lower.

Third, legalize everything. If you, as a consenting adult, want to take viagra... that is your business. If you want to take them 12 at a time, and your pecker blows off... too fucking bad. Don't sue the manufacturer. And if you think you need viagra... go to Walmart and buy it. Why should you have to go to a doctor? My ex had a sinus infection almost every year, and every time she went to a doctor, who charged her insurance for a bunch of tests, then prescribed the same treatment, which her Rx policy then paid an inflated price for. If you couldn't sue the doctor or the pharmacy or the store that sold you the drug, how much cheaper would stuff be?

Start with these types of reform, and you might could get my vote. As for those who can't afford health care... wonder how many of them have cell phones, cable tv, internet and other non-essentials?

I'm in the US Air Force. One of the cost saving measures the Air Force just adopted was a maximum waist measurement. There is a strong correlation between waist size and health, and after July 2010, anyone who has a waist size of 39" or greater will automatically fail their physical fitness test. For officers, that is a career ender, as your performance report will reflect that you are not meeting standards.

The healthcare bill could have included provisions denying free or subsidized coverage for those folks with a high risk lifestyle, such as drug, tobacco, or alcohol use. I would say that any AIDS related costs for adults should also be put on the individual, given that it is completely avoidable.

"As for those who can't afford health care... wonder how many of them have cell phones, cable tv, internet and other non-essentials?"

It has never, ever been about people not being able to "afford" healthcare. It's about them being able to afford healthcare without having to forgo the cell phones, and tv,s and XM radio, and eating out twice a week, and whatever.

#43 | Posted by madbomber
As for those who can't afford health care... wonder how many of them have cell phones, cable tv, internet and other non-essentials?"

It has never, ever been about people not being able to "afford" healthcare. It's about them being able to afford healthcare without having to forgo the cell phones, and tv,s and XM radio, and eating out twice a week, and whatever.
---------------------
I worked for Catholic Cahrities, and every house I went into had a 52' TV, Cell Phone, Cigarettes, cable tv, beer in the fridge, and they couldn't afford health insurance..

much lower amount, For a $400 bill, they might pay between $100-$133 dollars. I always monitor mine, and the difference is usually about 60-75%. I believe that Maryland has already enacted such laws.

If you could cut medical costs by that much, you wouldn't even need an insurance plan, outside of a possible catastrophic option.

#38 | Posted by madbomber

I guess you could do the same thing the next time you go to a football game. How bout doing that at the supermarker. Damn, I'm going to do that next time I go to the bar for a drink.

I'm around doctors every single day, more specifically surgeons. They're dead set against it.

This is a classic example of peer pressure. Of course they are against it and A-hole would agree with them before risking his nursey job by saying anything else. The surgeons figure they are worth a thousand dollars an minute and it's their God given right to run anyone into the poor house that needs an operation whether they need it or not and whether it works or not. Tell me A-hole, if they cut out your heart and you die, does your family now still owe the bill? The answer is of course yes if they had to sign over the house to get the operation, but that's OK, yea, the surgeon earned it because he spent an hour or two of his time, even if he knew it was a going to fail anyway.

That's the way the system works now. I hope you find out the hard way some day.

Hey, if you think the surgeons are overpriced... go to Canada to have your heart cut out... not like the minister of health (can't remember the guys title) is having his work done there...

He KNOWS where the best in the world come to practice. You want walmart priced operations, expect walmart quality service.

I am sure that you can find a teaching hospital to do the work for much much less... and from the sound of your posts... it would be doing both the doctors and the world a favor.