Dammit. I was just gonna post this. How _dare_ you, Doc? : )

Interesting stuff. Some sounds good; some sounds still questionable. But it's all talk right now. And of course, there are those who think the Feds should just butt out (and keep the money, especially because they never live up to their financial promises anyway).

I have only one thought so far: How do you tie teacher evaluation to test scores, given that there are so very many factors involved in how well students do on tests? Can we tie graduation to how well they do on tests, make it part of their grade or credit-earning? Seems to me that if they don't care about the tests, they won't do well--though I grant that's probably a small percentage. And what does that do to teachers whose students don't get tested (arts, and wouldja believe there is no history test at this time? not widespread anyway)? Or to teachers whose grade level doesn't get tested? (I teach mostly ninth grade--well, until this year--but there is no ninth or tenth grade test in English. The disconnect seems obvious, no?)

NCLB has the stench of Ted Kennedy all over it.
Just kill it and turn schools back to the states and counties, as they should be

"NCLB has the stench of Ted Kennedy all over it."

Vermin fails current events again.

"Currently the education law requires the nation's 98,000 public schools to make "adequate yearly progress" as measured by student test scores. Schools that miss their targets in reading and math must offer students the opportunity to transfer to other schools and free after-school tutoring. Schools that repeatedly miss targets face harsher sanctions, which can include staff dismissals and closings. All students are required to be proficient by 2014.

Educators have complained loudly in the eight years since the law was signed that it was branding tens of thousands of schools as failing but not forcing them to change."

It seems the school educators do not want the responsibility to increase the quality of the education they are tasked to accomplish. Instead they want the government to force them into complying.

"Instead, under the administration's proposals, a new accountability system would divide schools into more categories, offering recognition to those that are succeeding and providing large new amounts of money to help improve or close failing schools."

Nothing works better than throwing more money after bad,eh?

"The competition has also encouraged states to open the door to more charter schools, which receive public money but are run by independent groups."

Obama put the halt to that as one of his very first priority items.

"They want to upend that scheme by making states and districts pledge to take actions the administration considers reform, before they get the money."

"One section of the current Bush-era law has required states to certify that all teachers are highly qualified"

Screw that, right?

"The law has, to date, labeled some 30,000 schools as "in need of improvement," a euphemism for failing, but states and districts have done little to change them."

Right back to "the government has to do it". NCLB made the false assumption that educators are dedicated to education of the students.

"The last serious attempt to rewrite the law was in 2007. That effort collapsed, partly because teachers' unions and other educator groups opposed an effort to incorporate merit pay provisions into a rewritten law."

This speaks volumes. Don't forget to blame Busk,OK?

Kill it.

You need to get children to learn and the paddle should be used on both cheeks.

This was doomed from the beginning.

No Child Left and Right Behind.

"One section of the current Bush-era law has required states to certify that all teachers are highly qualified"

Screw that, right?

There is no avoiding this hurdle. We can do many things to improve education but without improving educators, it isn't going to have much impact.

#3 | Posted by Zatoichi at 2010-02-01 09:38 AM | Reply | Flag:

Kennedy's staff wrote this abomination.

It was an early Bush effort at bipartisanship

Thanks for playing

The most effective improvement to public schools has come from survive-or-die charter schools.

Of course, the unions hate any challenge to their fiefdoms

"Of course, the unions hate any challenge to their fiefdoms"

Not true. Teacher unions want sense and sensibility in addition to accountability. My union wants kids to be well educated and me not to be fired on a whim. We have never said that we reject measurements of quality. We have said (and backed up) the idea that measuring teacher quality by student performance on a standardized test is at best of limited value and at worst completely fucking absurd.

I may try to find time later today to respond to KBM's attacks on educators. Maybe when I have more minutes than the passing time between classes.

We have said (and backed up) the idea that measuring teacher quality by student performance on a standardized test is at best of limited value and at worst completely fucking absurd.

then how?

"then how?"

Great question. How about we measure students via a panoply of assessments, from pencil and paper to performance assessments of various kinds.

How about we measure teachers on various things like goals and growth and education/professional development? This is not quality control, people. Teachers are not factory workers. (No diss on factory workers, but if I'm making a toaster, you can judge my work by the toaster's functioning. Doesn't quite work that way with students.)

I'll add here something I wrote recently to a colleague, on this very topic:

"... there are many factors besides teacher quality.

"And more problematically, what do you do with teachers whose disciplines aren't tested? Say, the arts? Or... social studies isn't tested. ...

"And furthermore, what tests are you using to determine what? I mean, if I teach 9th grade English, what happens? There is not a test until 11th grade. Do those test scores reflect on me, on the 10th grade teacher, or on both? Whose teaching mattered more to that 11th grade test? Or say I teach 11th/12th grades only, but the 11th grade test is supposed to reflect what they learned in 10th grade. So if I teach only 11th and 12th grades, how does testing figure into my evaluations?" [end what I wrote to colleague]

It's just not as easy as "base the teacher evaluations on test scores."

The unions are open to multiple evaluative tools and of course to accountability. Bad teaching hurts all of us.

But many critics won't read past the idea that this is a teacher criticizing the current system of so-called accountability. Many will assume that I just want status quo. The reality could not be farther from the truth. I'm all for teachers proving themselves. I do it every day. And I continually work to analyze my teaching and change what doesn't work. Go figure. We do exist.

I propose a new program: Most Children Left Behind

Quit wasting time on the stupid, lazy ones. If they don't want to be in school, let them leave and make their own way in the world. Concentrate on the small fraction that are talented and want to learn.

And quit wasting money on football; A stupid, pointless waste of time for the entertainment of the brain-dead.

In Texas ...

Occupation Salary

Economists $80,939
Real estate brokers $80,534
Computer software engineers $79,598
Environmental engineers $74,827
Financial analysts $74,578
5A, 4A football coaches* $73,804
College business teachers $72,197
College physics teachers $72,148
Mechanical engineers $71,672
Flight attendants $71,157
Computer programmers $70,547

#14 | Posted by Zatoichi at 2010-02-01 11:14 AM | Reply | Flag:

If you want to mandate what people can and cannot make, lets start with your salary first you nazi. What should pool cleaners make? I mean, now with GW in full swing your pool must need cleaning a lot more with rising temps this winter!

The job market determines what your skill set is worth. Not idiots like you. What's the pool temp today Zat?

Many will assume that I just want status quo. The reality could not be farther from the truth. I'm all for teachers proving themselves. I do it every day. And I continually work to analyze my teaching and change what doesn't work. Go figure. We do exist.

you are not the only one. I know plenty myself so I am sure there are a lot like you.

#14

And if the quality of teachers improve then the pay will have to follow.

If you want to mandate what people can and cannot make, lets start with your salary first you nazi.

interesting. Zat's post is socialistic when applied to how it might affect him but harshly conservative with how it might affect anyone else.

"lets start with your salary first"

I've been retired on my own nickle since 1997.
Try again, loser.

I've been retired on my own nickle since 1997.

State funded pension?

"you are not the only one. I know plenty myself so I am sure there are a lot like you. "

Thanks for treating me seriously, Eberly. Many here would instead have attacked.

That said, I don't agree with the idea that pay will increase just because quality (whatever that is) increases. In reality, we need a paradigm shift. Too many citizens look down on education; too many citizens look down on educators; for that matter, when you talk about reform, too many citizens don't even think it's important to change how we do things ("It worked for me..."). I like the idea, though; I'd be happy to earn more money.

Tangentially, I'm tired of the argument some put forth: Get practitioners from the real world to be teachers; they know their stuff; they'll be great. First of all, they won't necessarily be great. More importantly, perhaps, do people putting forth that idea really think that experts in various fields are going to give up their lucrative jobs to teach school? (Think of a research scientist at Pfizer. Maybe he could teach, and maybe he'd want to, but the pay cut would likely be on the order of half his current salary.)

I sequeezed "No Child Left Behind" for about as much as I could.
Laissez les bon temps roulez!
~Neil "Silverado" Bush

Next joining Organizing for America (barackobama.com) will be required for that HS diploma. It has already been started:

I sequeezed "No Child Left Behind" for about as much as I could.
Laissez les bon temps roulez!
~Neil "Silverado" Bush

#22 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis

Doc, LOL, you are nothing but a hack.

The Bush years are fading and Obama is taking his place as the new "Worst President Since Hoover".

The only question I have is, why are you picking on a successful Bush program?

Did anybody hear that a bunch of states just lowered the standards for high school graduation so that children did not feel bad and get left behind?

#24 | Posted by Eddie
| Flag: Eddie Calling Anyone "Hack" is Like a Wheel of Over-Ripe Gorgonzola Complaining about "Stink"

"The only question I have is, why are you picking on a successful Bush program?"

NCLB? Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
a! (Okay, seriously, do a little research: The success of the program in Texas has been largely debunked.)

And Exprs, my state takes this stuff very seriously. I don't know about any state lowering standards. I suppose you were joking. I hope so.

Good, bad, or neutral...the federal government has no business running our educational system! Everything the feds touch, and I mean EVERYTHING, they fuck up. With this new development, it appears Glorious Leader&Community Organizer is trying to build his socialist country by beginning in the schools.

So Obama's doing something "socialistic" by eliminating some of the more absurb aspects of NCLB? Wow, you guys really do need to get your talking points distributed faster.

"The only question I have is, why are you picking on a successful Bush program?"

NCLB? Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

#27 | Posted by pragmatist

I don't think Eddie is implying that NCLB is successful. I think he means THIS successful Bush program.

"So Obama's doing something "socialistic" by eliminating some of the more absurb aspects of NCLB?"

No...what he NEEDS to do is eliminate the whole thing. The fact that he wants to "overhaul" it makes me think "expand" and put HIS imprimatur on it.

"Wow, you guys really do need to get your talking points distributed faster."

Getting the federal government OUT of controlling the schools has been my talking point since Carter created the Department of Education.

Next joining Organizing for America (barackobama.com) will be required for that HS diploma. It has already been started:

biggovernment.com

#23 | Posted by KBM

From the article:
"Barack Obama is using our public school system to recruit for his Alinsky-inspired private army. Organizing for America (OFA), formerly Obama For America, is recruiting in our high schools to "build on the movement that elected President Obama by empowering students across the country to help us bring about our agenda" that is, his agenda of socialism for the United States of America."

I don't mind this if I knew they were responsible and made learning and understanding the Constitution a requirement! And, that they would use MichaelMoore-style tactics of lying, like the using of the "48-million uninsured" as a way to show that the evil Conservatives don't care about people. In other words, "Your parents are evil and you should get away from them".

If I knew that these young people would be told the truth and were not intimidated into believing that America is bad and should be punished.

I don't think Eddie is implying that NCLB is successful. I think he means THIS successful Bush program.

www.commondreams.org

#30 | Posted by Whatsleft

LOL! MichaelMoore stricks again...

try again, dude.

You know? We are all tired of this kind of politics.

Who cares?

I can see it now. Eliminate the Pledge of Allegiance to start the day and have first-graders sing...

MMM MMM MMM!
Barack Hussein Obama!

What in hell is wrong with these people? I think Ajami was right when he wrote..

"A historical hallmark of "isms" and charismatic movements is to dig deeper when they falterto insist that the "thing" itself, whether it be Peronism, or socialism, etc., had not been tried but that the leader had been undone by forces that hemmed him in.

It is true to this history that countless voices on the left now want Obama to be Obama. The economic stimulus, the true believers say, had not gone astray, it only needed to be larger; the popular revolt against ObamaCare would subside if and when a new system was put in place."

Getting the federal government OUT of controlling the schools has been my talking point since Carter created the Department of Education.

#31 | Posted by jestgettinalong

I agree completely!!!

The Federal Department of Education made everyone lazy as all Fed programs do.

All Bush did with NCLB was to put some accountability back into it.

BTW, this is probably the only thing I approve of Bush doing.

"Getting the federal government OUT of controlling the schools has been my talking point since Carter created the Department of Education."

Then I hope you called Bush socialistic in this measure, too. It's one of his signature legislative "successes" (and yes, I grant Congress's complicity and some leftie senators' roles).

"I can see it now. Eliminate the Pledge of Allegiance to start the day and have first-graders sing...
MMM MMM MMM!
Barack Hussein Obama!"

And now you're just being an idiot, showing your partisan politics. Show me the link that proves Obama was behind this or supports it. Otherwise, you're blowing it out your ass again.

And btw, dismantling NCLB would not do what you hope. Dismantling the Department of Ed might. But then who would you rail against about all the bad teaching? Oh, right, it would be clearly the states' fault.

Oh, and I'm not against getting rid of the DoE. Maybe on the state level, too.

"All Bush did with NCLB was to put some accountability back into it."

Yep, and made lots of publishing (testing) companies millions and millions and millions of dollars. I'm sure links have been found between various gov't "leaders" and various publishing companies. Not to be cynical.

One of my biggest disappointments with Reagan was his failure to abolish the Department of Education as he promised in his campaign.

I don't think Eddie is implying that NCLB is successful. I think he means THIS successful Bush program.

www.commondreams.org

#30 | Posted by Whatsleft

Whatsleft, I get the controversy, but I don't get how this is a problem.

Does it only allow Neil Bush's product? Or is he simply taking advantage of a good idea?

I think it's not very classy for him to do that, but it seems that he was operating in Texas and providing a great service.

Funny how the article doesn't talk about other entrepreneurs doing the same thing!

You actually thought that you were pulling a "Bush Attacked A Country to Make His Oil Buddies Rich", didn't you?

LOL!!!

"Then I hope you called Bush socialistic in this measure, too."

Yep. I am not, and WAS not, a Bush admirer. He too, expanded government and federal power. AND, he did not veto a SINGLE spending bill full of earmarks for the first six years he was in office. He was not any kind of a conservative that I could recognize.

"And now you're just being an idiot, showing your partisan politics. Show me the link that proves Obama was behind this or supports it."

I don't think I'm a partisan. I have voted for conservative democrats in local and state elections. I voted for JFK and LBJ before the radical leftists took over the party. I also think Obama revels in the kind of thing that was going on. I'm not the only person who believes he's an egotist. Ajami has it right againwhen he says...

"We have had stylish presidents, none more so than JFK. But Kennedy was an ironist and never fell for his own mystique. Mr. Obama's self-regard comes without ironyhe himself now owns up to the "remoteness and detachment" of his governing style. We don't have in this republic the technocratic model of the European states, where a bureaucratic elite disposes of public policy with scant regard for the popular will. Mr. Obama was smitten with his own specialness."

You can't tell me Obama doesn't eat up all the undue adoration place on him by many.

"And btw, dismantling NCLB would not do what you hope. Dismantling the Department of Ed might. But then who would you rail against about all the bad teaching? Oh, right, it would be clearly the states' fault."

And THAT is where it belongs. A smaller Bureaucracy would be able to operate more efficiently without the impediment of the federal government and would eliminate some of the influence of the NEA.

"...and made lots of publishing (testing) companies millions and millions and millions of dollars. I'm sure links have been found between various gov't "leaders" and various publishing companies. Not to be cynical."

I don't think it's cynical at all. Where do you think all that money taxpayers spend on "education" is going? The feds keep saying we need more and more spending to improve education and we just keep falling farther behind. Get the feds OUT!

JEST: Yep. I am not, and WAS not, a Bush admirer. He too, expanded government and federal power. AND, he did not veto a SINGLE spending bill full of earmarks for the first six years he was in office. He was not any kind of a conservative that I could recognize.

ME: Okay. I withdraw my earlier crack about partisan politics. But again, show me the link that shows Obama was behind or supportive of the songs created in schools. (Of which I saw evidence of ONE song.)

And saying he's an egotist is not enough.

...

ME: And btw, dismantling NCLB would not do what you hope. Dismantling the Department of Ed might. But then who would you rail against about all the bad teaching? Oh, right, it would be clearly the states' fault.

JEST: And THAT is where it belongs. A smaller Bureaucracy would be able to operate more efficiently without the impediment of the federal government and would eliminate some of the influence of the NEA.

ME: You were with me till you got to the end. WHAT influence of the NEA? The NEA neither creates curricula nor controls hiring and firing of teachers. State law does the latter, in conjunction with bargained agreements. The idea that we protect mediocre teachers (not spoken by you) is a canard; we protect the contract, which presents process. If you want to use due process to get rid of bad teachers, I will hold the door open wide. Bad teachers hurt all of us. But for the record, state bureaucracies suck, too. And some state DoEs are just as full of shit as the fed DoE.

ME: ...and made lots of publishing (testing) companies millions and millions and millions of dollars. I'm sure links have been found between various gov't "leaders" and various publishing companies. Not to be cynical.

JEST: I don't think it's cynical at all. Where do you think all that money taxpayers spend on "education" is going? The feds keep saying we need more and more spending to improve education and we just keep falling farther behind. Get the feds OUT!

ME: Hm. Would that end spending? Help us stop falling behind? (Behind whom? According to what stats? More standardized tests?) Where should that money go? How much money is it? Really, the fed DoE has never come anywhere close to meetings its promises regarding spending (just look at IDEA for starters). Money? Fuck 'em. In some states, it cost more to create the testing regimen (and administer and rate the tests) than the state would have lost in fed funding. Said states should have told the feds to take a long walk off a short pier. Cowards.

So fuck, we agree on some of this stuff. : )

"But again, show me the link that shows Obama was behind or supportive of the songs created in schools. (Of which I saw evidence of ONE song.)"

There are others if you care to look them up. There was a rash of them at one time and he did nothing to discourage any of it although he didn't blatently encourage any of it either. I still believe he is an egotist of the highest order though.

"The NEA neither creates curricula nor controls hiring and firing of teachers."

You're not gonna tell me that the NEA is impotent in regard to funding, influencing programs and appointments, are you?

"But for the record, state bureaucracies suck, too. And some state DoEs are just as full of shit as the fed DoE."

No doubt...and there will always be SOME. However, with SOME full of shit would be an improvement over the status quo.

"Help us stop falling behind? (Behind whom? According to what stats? More standardized tests?)"

Do you think our students, as a whole, are on a par with and produce as many scientists as the Japanese? The Indians? The Pakistanis? We are too much into teaching PC, "social studies" and other things. We need to get back to the three R's to begin. I see living examples and read stories every day about our funtional illiterates and drop out rates. And, no, I don't think standardized tests are of much value.

"Where should that money go? How much money is it?"

Way too MUCH money and it isn't going to anything that has resulted in much improvement. First of all, teaching should be made a lucrative profession and the qualifications made very stiff.

"Money? Fuck 'em. In some states, it cost more to create the testing regimen (and administer and rate the tests) than the state would have lost in fed funding"

Exactly..the bulk of the funds are going to support Bureaucracies and goofy, needless programs.

"Said states should have told the feds to take a long walk off a short pier. Cowards."

They ALL should do that! But instead of that happening, the feds are spending MORE money bribing the states and increasing their hold on the system while we watch real public education decline.

I've been retired on my own nickle since 1997.
Try again, loser.

#18 | Posted by Zatoichi at 2010-02-01 11:34 AM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)

So what? If you are so proud of your economic independance why promote some socialist form of salary control on others? Oh wait, because you got yours and fuck everyone else. Your such a hero ZAT - hero in your own mind that is.

The computer that generated the raw data in those images is my personal property. Not bought with a grant. Comprende' pendejo?

#19 | Posted by Zatoichi at 2010-02-01 11:38 AM | Reply | Flag:

Oh how impressive, you bought a laptop on your own. How fancy! Is it a 286 or 386 processor? Or did you upgrade to the timex sinclair 1000?

Pendejo? Por favor muchacho - besame el culo.

JEST: There are others if you care to look them up. There was a rash of them at one time and he did nothing to discourage any of it although he didn't blatently encourage any of it either. I still believe he is an egotist of the highest order though.

ME: Again, his egotism does not prove that he condones the song-making. And I did look them up. I found ONE on YouTube. One. And what I said then still stands: That teacher should be disciplined appropriate to the school's policy. Parents who are concerned should express that concern. It's a matter for the local district and the local citizens, not for us far away. Unless it is proven that Obama or the DoE was in cahoots with that teacher.
+++++

JEST: You're not gonna tell me that the NEA is impotent in regard to funding, influencing programs and appointments, are you?

ME: The NEA is a powerful lobbying force indeed. We advocate for what we believe is good for students, education, and teachers. That's a bad thing?
+++++

ME: But for the record, state bureaucracies suck, too. And some state DoEs are just as full of shit as the fed DoE."

JEST: No doubt...and there will always be SOME. However, with SOME full of shit would be an improvement over the status quo.

ME: Okay, that was funny.
+++++

JEST: Do you think our students, as a whole, are on a par with and produce as many scientists as the Japanese? The Indians? The Pakistanis?

ME: Probably not. Is that just about quality of teaching, though?

JEST: We are too much into teaching PC,

ME: I don't know what that means.

JEST: "social studies" and other things.

ME: Lots of posters here seem not to have studied history. It hardly can be blamed on the shift to the phrase "social studies."

JEST: We need to get back to the three R's to begin. I see living examples and read stories every day about our funtional illiterates and drop out rates.

ME: Should I point out the misspelling? : ) No, before someone accuses me of being a spelling Nazi, shouldn't communication and literacy be relevant in every context? (Clearly, Jest is not illiterate.) Yes, dropout rates and functional illiteracy are real issues in this country (and in every country). But again, is this solely the fault of the teachers and the schools. We, as a country, don't seem to honor education, never mind educators. Let's take that into account. It's not an excuse, but it's part of the problem, and critics of education too often ignore such factors. You brought up Japan earlier. Do you think Japanese parents, by and large, want to be their kids' friends or their parents? Do you think they push kids to do well or take a lackadaisical stance on education? Do you think they teach children respect for their teachers or show that they'll back their kid in any argument with a teacher? I know, I'm jumping about a bit, but educational success is not limited to how well a teacher knows his/her material and how well they deliver it. Just to name one factor, kids have to give a shit.
+++++

JEST: And, no, I don't think standardized tests are of much value.

ME: Well, there's something we agree on!
+++++

ME: Where should that money go? How much money is it?"

JEST: Way too MUCH money and it isn't going to anything that has resulted in much improvement.

ME: How much?

JEST: First of all, teaching should be made a lucrative profession and the qualifications made very stiff.

ME: Agreed. But then, with no DoE (or did you mean the states get to keep theirs), who determines those qualifications and how they are met? I know lots of teachers who would be happy to meet those requirements and make this marvelously larger salary.

Whatever plans Obama will be making, you can better believe they won't be cheaper.

whatever plans the DR. right has for education.. it involves making prayer times, intelligent design in science courses, doing away with sex ed, and letting urban schools fail and more homeschooling.

i don't take anything these guys say for education... one might get OVER educated according to them.

education in the usa needs major over hauling and changing the no child left behind garbage regardless of bush or kennedy is the way to do it.

of course the righties will force their congressmen to block block block and say no no no.

Like funding?

The idea that "every child can learn" is absurd. Many "children are left behind" at conception.

Obama can can pretend that the failing inner city schools are not really failing as long as it doesn't cost the taxpayers any more money.

"Whatever plans Obama will be making, you can better believe they won't be cheaper"

YEAH!

Cause Everyone Knows a Good Investment comes on the Cheap!

Hell, every successful Business on the Planet became successful with little to no expense!

Why do republicans think that Securing our future as a Superpower can only come from Shitting on the Next Generation?

For someone who is always chortling their prowess at business, you sure show how limited your knowledge of how a successful business works, repeatedly.

"NCLB has the stench of Ted Kennedy all over it."

Another Example of how Today's "republicans" govern not by being pragmatic problem solvers --- but rather by whose name is on the bill.

"The idea that "every child can learn" is absurd. Many "children are left behind" at conception."

Bullshit. Every child can learn. The question is what they can learn and how much and how fast. (Yes, obviously, there are some who are so deeply cognitively disabled that it's almost apt to say "not every child can learn.")

"Obama can can pretend that the failing inner city schools are not really failing as long as it doesn't cost the taxpayers any more money."

It seems that all you have is hate (or mistrust?) for Obama here. NOTHING in the DoE's goals or actions suggests they're interested in hiding or pretending anything. They are willing to take on the unions and say scary shit out loud--how does this translate to pretending blah blah blah? (It was Bush's Texas that was proved to have falsified data on the success or failure of children. Look it up. Why not give Obama and Duncan a chance to prove they mean what they say? Oh, that's right--you are too partisan to handle that. Hell, I believe Bush meant what he said about wanting to leave no child behind, to help all improve. I just think it's been handled poorly.)

In fairness, NCLB did help. Bush went from reading at a 3rd grade level (My Pet Goat) to an 8th grade level (Harry Potter) when he left office.

Fragmatist,

One of Obama's agenda items befire he was elected was to raise the pay of teachers in those failing schools. It's just another way to spend money and get nothing out of it. Obama has a "spending addiction". He should go on Oprah and say his mea culpas.

Fwitty, link please. I have a feeling you're talking out your partisan ass again. Obama has consistently talked about merit pay, and he and Duncan have consistently talked about tests as key to teacher evaluations. All of this is anathema to unions. He _never_ promised shit to the NEA. In fact, he remained the most unpopular of the Dem candidates to the very end. We supported him because of who the alternative was--it's pretty much that simple.

But you know, you're probably just trolling anyway. If you're serious, I'm happy to talk education with anyone, as you know.

TIPPIECANOEANDTYLERTOO,

It's always anazing to read a lib with a sense of humour. But be careful, your candidates, John Kerry had worse grades in college than Bush and AlGore the global warming hoaxer flunked out of Vanderbilt. The last candidate in your party with any brains was Blow Job Billy.

I guess this means he actually wants to fund it, unlike the Cheerleader-In-Chief.

It needs major adjustment, I voted for that only because there was no option saying, "the Federal Government should not be involved in Education, end the law and the Department of Ed along with it."

Are those major adjustments for you?

They need to scrap the whole deal. The feds have no business in the school system in the first place.

"It needs major adjustment, I voted for that only because there was no option saying, "the Federal Government should not be involved in Education, end the law and the Department of Ed along with it.""

You voted? You're a member of congress? Adds whole new meaning to your name...

You will never draw the best and brightest to teaching as long as teacher pay is almost at poverty level.

Quality teaching will come with better pay and the ability to FIRE bad teachers.

The teachers UNIONS should be shut down, and the pay of teachers DOUBLED.

Teaching to the test hasn't worked.

Bush's unfunded "No Child Left Behind" hasn't performed.

"The teachers UNIONS should be shut down"

Bullshit. Unions are a resource of the last resort. No one joins a Union because they think paying dues is a good idea. Teachers are in Unions because they're beset on all sides: taxpayers, parents, & school boards.

Bush's unfunded "No Child Left Behind" hasn't performed.

Neither has Teddy Kennedy's

I fixed that link on the asteroid crash, GOATMAN

I fixed that link on the asteroid crash, GOATMAN

Thanks. I'm off to look at it.

"Quality teaching will come with better pay and the ability to FIRE bad teachers."

Bad teachers can be fired if administrators do their jobs and prove that said teachers are of low quality. (It's called just cause, and all workers should benefit from it.)

It's all about the money

What is, Dave? The meaning of your post eludes me.

Didn't someone else nationalize the auto industry, nationalize health care, take over the education system, expand abortion, organize communities, fail? My history is not so good. Was it Carter... no, I think it was in the 40s

GM and FORD reported good sales gains ...

Topic, people... topic...

Damn, I thought that was teddy kennedy's bill, may he roast in hell, and G.W. signed onto it in great bipartisan spirit. Turn education over to the private sector, enough of thois marxist indoctrination horseshit, at the taxpayers expense.

Rightnut lives up to his name again. (Private sector? Education for profit? Are you really that crazy? Wow.) And no, it wasn't Teddy K's bill. Bush started it, based on the "success" in Texas. Kennedy joined in bipartisan spirit. And Congress fucked up by approving it.

Damn, I thought that was teddy kennedy's bill, may he roast in hell, and G.W. signed onto it in great bipartisan spirit. Turn education over to the private sector, enough of thois marxist indoctrination horseshit, at the taxpayers expense.

#71 | Posted by rightnut at 2010-02-02 08:22 PM | Reply | Flag:

Wanna try that again?

Like funding it?!?!

"Judging schools in a more nuanced way."

Shorthand for: we'll let the pork-barreling Congress decide how much money the schools get, in their districts.

Shut it down.

No, RIR, it's not shorthand for that. "In a nuanced way" means not solely by test scores, not by the limiting and incomplete ways we now judge schools according to this act.

That said, I'm not against closing the fed DoE, if that was the antecedent of "it" in your last sentence.

Right. It means that a school can still be a failure, and yet continue to be eligible for funds. And who do you suppose is going to be responsible for deciding who's eligible, and who's not?

Pigs at the trough.

"Right. It means that a school can still be a failure, and yet continue to be eligible for funds."

So taking money away would make the school better? Odd concept. If you need to engage in reform, that often costs money. (If you have a house with a leaky roof, do you abandon the house or invest in fixing the roof?) And "the school" (admin, teachers) is not the only factor in school success. School critics need to get over that idea, just as some who work in schools need to get over the idea that that reality is some sort of excuse. All factors need to be examined and addressed.

"And who do you suppose is going to be responsible for deciding who's eligible, and who's not?"

The Department of Education, obviously. What's your point?

You do know that Bush was a proponent of the DoE, too, right? That he spearheaded the NCLB reform (if such it can be called)? That his appointees ran the DoE? So sure, have disagreements with how the DoE is run and how money is handed around, but please make sure it's not based in partisan opinions, mmkay? I'm ready to cast doubt on Obama (my guy, so to speak) in this matter. In fact, I've done it all along, in every education conversation we've had. Merit pay is flawed. Basing judgments of teacher quality solely on test results is wrong. Obama and Duncan believe in both those things (though they've softened a bit).

If you have a quick fix for how to address education flaws in our system, RIR, let's have 'em. So far, you're just pissing and moaning.

Bush was a proponent of a lot of dumb things. If the good citizens of Detroit or Chicago want better schools, then they should pay for them. It's not my job to come up with solutions for their problems, and neither should I have to come up with money.

Barney Frank wants to change it to no child's behind left.

"Bush was a proponent of a lot of dumb things. If the good citizens of Detroit or Chicago want better schools, then they should pay for them. It's not my job to come up with solutions for their problems, and neither should I have to come up with money."

Right, then you want the DoE disbanded. This leftie won't argue with you. Just don't blame it on Obama, please. This problem has existed through many presidents, Republican and Democratic alike.

And Congress won't make the decisions; the DoE will.

I wasn't blaming Obama; quite the contrary. The bank bailouts, Fannie and Freddie, staggering entitlement program liabilities, nation building in the Middle East--a fool's errand if ever there was one--all the fault of Bush and the Republicans. Our federal spending should be less than half what it is--that's Bush's and the Republicans' fault too. That Obama is only making a horrible problem worse doesn't mean that the horrible problem wasn't the design of spineless Repubs.

All right. Thanks for clarifying. I have to suggest that we don't know if Obama is making the problem worse yet, but I know that it sure looks that way to some. I hope it's not as bad as the doom-and-gloomers think. Though sometimes I think they want it to be terrible so they can say "See? We were right about Obama. He's a loser!"

All right. Thanks for clarifying. I have to suggest that we don't know if Obama is making the problem worse yet, but I know that it sure looks that way to some. I hope it's not as bad as the doom-and-gloomers think. Though sometimes I think they want it to be terrible so they can say "See? We were right about Obama. He's a loser!"

What the hell? I didn't really publish that twice, did I? (sigh)

Like all of lilaWol's proposals, NCLB was a huge cash cow for his family and the Repugs who supported his candidacy.

Profits, yes, efficacy, not so much.

Profiteers Collect Billions From No Child Left Behind

Actually, NCLB was based on a FAILED program instituted by Houston City Schools whose supt was Rod Paige. The data collected on the program FAILED to note DROPOUTS after it was instituted, making No Child Left Behind a MISNOMER much like bush's clean air initiative....

Not sure about bush proposals?

Just totally reverse whatever name they put on them....

NCLB=many left behind

Clean Air Initiative=lessened standards

Patriot Act=weakened our freedoms

Operation Iraqi Freedom=indefinitely detained and tortured inordinate numbers of iraqi men and boys and kia/wia/displaced millions of iraqis

etc, etc....

where are all the drudge Obama lovers who bragged on the great recovery this ass clown in chief touted, check out the "revision", dick weeds! This light skinned ignorent Negro could not run a hot dog stand, yo mamma!

Reins, dude, stay on topic, willya? (I won't comment on the racism--seems pretty clear to me that you're trolling.)

Educators who have been briefed by administration officials said the proposals for changes in the main law governing the federal role in public schools would eliminate or rework many of the provisions that teachers' unions, associations of principals, school boards and other groups have found most objectionable.

This is GREAT news!

American Children are still being left behind. I have an idea. If you are going to call it "No Child Left Behind" then don't leave any children behind or call it something else.

It is not working. Fix it.

American Children are still being left behind. I have an idea. If you are going to call it "No Child Left Behind" then don't leave any children behind or call it something else.

It is not working. Fix it.

#91 | Posted by donnerboy

I'm for abolishing the education departments at the Federal and State levels. Leave it to the local communities.

I don't get why our Universities are doing great, but the public schools are mostly doing horribly.

Why?

"Regarding "No Child Left Behind," _____

It's just fine, as is
It needs some minor adjustments
It needs major adjustments
How credible is an education major that comes out of George W. Bush's world?
Only one vote will be counted per user.
"

Typical left wing slanted poll

I don't get why our Universities are doing great, but the public schools are mostly doing horribly.

Why?

Because they don't have stupid standardized tests all throughout college, so the students can spend their time learning actual subjects, and the teachers can teach actual subjects instead of teaching how to pass the almost meaningless tests mandated by NCLB?

Like all of lilaWol's proposals, NCLB was a huge cash cow for his family and the Repugs who supported his candidacy.

"Typical left wing slanted poll"

Yes, and if a right wing poster had put the link up and created a poll, he or she would mostly likely have created a typical right wing slanted poll. What's your point? That people hew to their biases or worldviews? Profound indeed.

The president lied, yea, I'm sorry to be there bearer of bad news. Yup, the president has lied to all you little dweebs who voted for him, who believed in all is campaign bull shit. When he said if you make less than $250,000, your taxes won't go up, did you actually believe him? Well, the jokes on you, dumbass !!!!!!!!! Hmmm, let see, these look like new taxes to me, I make less than $250, 000 a year and it looks like my taxes are going to be going up.

* An income surtax on taxpayers earning more than $500,000 a year,[1]
* An excise tax on high-cost "Cadillac" health insurance plans that cost more than $8,500 a year for individuals or $21,000 for families,[2]
* An excise tax on medical devices such as wheelchairs, breast pumps, and syringes used by diabetics for insulin injections,[3]
* A cap on the exclusion of employer-provided health insurance without offsetting tax cuts,[4]
* A limit on itemized deductions for taxpayers with a top income tax rate greater than 28 percent,[5]
* A windfall profits tax on health insurance companies,[6]
* A value-added tax, which would tax the value added to a product at each stage of production,[7]
* An increase in the Medicare portion of the payroll tax to 3.4 percent for incomes great than $200,000 a year ($250,000 for married filers),[8]
* An excise tax on sugar-sweetened beverages including non-diet soda and sports drinks,[9]
* Higher taxes on alcoholic beverages including beer, wine, and spirits,[10]
* A tax on individuals without acceptable health care coverage of up to 2.5 percent of their adjusted gross income,[11]
* A limit on contributions to health savings accounts,[12]
* An 8 percent tax on all wages paid by employers that do not provide their employees health insurance that satisfies the requirements defined by the Secretary of Health and Human Services,[13]
* A limit on contributions to flexible spending arrangements,[14]
* Elimination of the deduction for expenses associated with Medicare Part D subsidies,[15]
* An increase in taxes on international businesses,[16]
* Elimination of the tax credits paper companies take for biofuels they create in their production processthe so-called "Black Liquor credit,"[17]
* Fees on insured and self-insured health plans,[18]
* A limit or repeal of the itemized deduction for medical expenses,[19]
* A limit on the Qualified Medical Expense definition,[20]
* An increase in the payroll taxes on students,[21]
* An extension of the Medicare payroll tax to all state and local government employees,[22]
* An increase in taxes on hospitals,[23]
* An increase in the estate tax,[24]
* Increased efforts to close the mythical "tax gap,"[25]
* A 5 percent tax on cosmetic surgery and similar procedures such as Botox treatments, tummy tucks, and face lifts,[26]
* A tax on drug companies,[27]
* An increase in the corporate tax on providers of health insurance,[28] and
* A $500,000 deduction limitation for the compensation paid by health insurance companies to their officers, employees, and directors.[29]

Just one more example of it doesn't matter which stooge puppet is in the perch.

Okay, Reins, first of all, your first citation completely contradicts your argument: more than 500,000 dollars per year. And you know damned well he was talking about income tax.

But why am I arguing? You posted completely fucking off-topic.

Typical.

#100 | Posted by pragmatist at 2010-02-04 07:58 PM | Reply | Flag

what a retard, you and your ilk welfare collectors never employed anyone...there are 29 examples and you focus on one... it says surtax on the amount, do you know what a sur tax is? if there is a tax on a tax, that does not indicate that the "base rate" did nto change for lower amounts of income and what are you the drudge topic police? go fuck yourself, its the pragmatic thing to do.

Actually, it's not very pragmatic. A hard cock doesn't bend that way.

As for employing anyone, you have no idea, shitbird. Love your assumptions. I focused on one as just a start. You were so full of shit I needed only one. And yes, topic police; sure, I'll take that label. If you want ever to have a serious conversation with someone, maybe you should try focusing on a relevant topic. But maybe you weren't paying attention in school in all those lessons about purpose and audience.