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Wednesday, January 27, 2010

Author Howard Zinn, whose leftist A People's History of the United States sold millions of copies and became an alternative to mainstream texts, died Wednesday of a heart attack in Santa Monica, Calif. He was 87.

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Howard Zinn should be required reading for all high school students...just so that they know what pure, unabashed propaganda looks like. While Zinn correctly pointed out the stains on American history, he did so while absolving and even glorifying those historical actors on the left who would have seen the US become another Soviet Union.

I disagreed with the man...but hope he rests in peace

One of Zinn's last public writings was a brief essay, published last week in The Nation, about the first year of the Obama administration.

"I've been searching hard for a highlight," he wrote, adding that he wasn't disappointed because he never expected a lot from Obama.

"I think people are dazzled by Obama's rhetoric, and that people ought to begin to understand that Obama is going to be a mediocre president which means, in our time, a dangerous president unless there is some national movement to push him in a better direction."

Maybe the first time I ever agreed with Professor Zinn. Although I did enjoy his show on PBS and his scraps with Bill O'Reilly.

This is sad news. Loved Howard Zinn's writings. R.I.P.

Not sure how any reasonable person who actually reads books can "disagree" with Howard Zinn. May his histories become required in America's high school and college classrooms. herm

I have a copy of the "the peoples history" and will never forget Zinn.

Zinn worked to make the world a better place for people to live.

I knew who this despicable bag of anti-American, revisionist lizard-cum was, and I'm glad he's dead.

Hopefully, Hell has a special antechamber whose occupants are consigned to watching Matt Damn movies for eternity.

I hope he a had a minute or two to stare at the ceiling and think about shit between the heart attack and the fade to black.

Matt Damon, of course.

He's a god now.

Never read your book Howard Zinn but anyone who takes on,and righteously skewers these Right Wing (Republican) Nazis is a "Super Hero" to me!!!

Not sure how any reasonable person who actually reads books can "disagree" with Howard Zinn.

Because he painted a blatantly biased picture of history. He actually had the honesty to admit such, but strangely, he waited until Chapter 23 of his famous history book to admit such - I would have thought a foreword to have been the most appropriate venue for such an admission.


Zinn worked to make the world a better place for people to live.

#7 | Posted by nutcase

The guy was a self-avowed Marxist, which is an ideology that may have brought more suffering to the human condition than anything else that has been tried.

re: The guy was a self-avowed Marxist, which is an ideology that may have brought more suffering to the human condition than anything else that has been tried.

Posted by JeffJ at 2010-01-28 12:47 AM | Reply

Since Zinn was a "self-avowed Marxist", can you give me a quote from Zinn regarding this?

I'd like to know if this is true, or if you just lied.

Go pick up a copy of A People's History of the United States, Boyd.

It's right in there for all to see - If I were at home right now, I'd dust off my copy of it and provide for you a direct quote - yes, I read it cover-to-cover.

You come up with the most absurd shit to be contentious about.

Like Noam Chomsky, Howard Zinn is from that unfortunate line of American pseudo-intellectuals whose appeal is primarily confined to trust-funded undergraduates desperately searching that "edgy" perspective they think mommy and daddy sent them to the university to acquire.

Reading A People's History of the United States is the intellectual equivalent of taking Archery as a P.E. elective.

Reading A People's History of the United States is the intellectual equivalent of taking Archery as a P.E. elective.

Agreed.

Chomsky?

Now, he's not actually a Marxist. He describes himself as a Socialist libertarian, which is a cute little spin-off. Although his unabashed apologetics for Pol Pot even caused some of his peers to roll their eyes as evidence of the attrocities mounted.

Chomsky?

Now, he's not actually a Marxist

No he's not.

He's just a semi-talented linguist who mistakenly thinks his trivial little sliver of expertise in his field somehow translates into people giving a fuck about his politics.

He's kinda like Sean Penn, but with more letters on his business card.

Just reading over the blog before I leave, but I don't see where JeffJ provides a quote for Zinn describing himself as a marxist.

Or maybe I'm just confused as to what "self avowed" means in Jeff World.

Anyways...good night blog.

The guy was a self-avowed Marxist,
...

#12 | Posted by JeffJ at 2010-01-28 12:47 AM | Reply | Flag:

Just wanted to remind myself of the assertion for a later date ...

Sorry for the last intrusion of the night for me.

Just reading over the blog before I leave, but I don't see where JeffJ provides a quote for Zinn describing himself as a marxist.

I told you where to find it, dipshit.

Go pick up A People's History and thumb to one of the late chapters (I believe it was #23, if memory serves). He lays out his political beliefs and biases in that chapter.

Your attempts at "gotcha" are beyond lame.

JeffJ-
Quote where Zinn describes himself as a Marxist, asshole.

Or, explain what "self-avowed Marxist" means in Jeff-speak.

Either would be doubleplusgood.

Pick up the fucking book, Boyd.

Are haven't you read it?

You made the assertion, Jeff, and it's clear you can't back it up.

So retract it, prove it, or STFU.

Let's be clear.

JeffJ asserted that Zinn is a ""self-avowed Marxist".

Jeff's proof is that Jeff didn't like Zinn's book.

Am I missing something (Like, maybe when Zinn stated he was a Marxist?)

???

There are plenty of Zinn quotes in this link, Boyd.

hnn.us

So boy(d), why should the details of abortion be hidden?

(I think it's great I finally figured out a way to shut that child up LOL)

You chicken shit away from the tough questions, don't you boy(d)? LOL

#17 | POSTED BY JAK_SE_MAO
"He's just a semi-talented linguist..."

Chomsky may be on the fringe politically, but as a linguist, he's hardly "semi-talented".

I think I get it.

In Jeff World, "self-avowed Marxist" means ....

Okay...still can't get beyond the idea that words have meaning...am maybe old-fashioned that way.

Let me try again.

In Jeff World, "self-avowed Marxist" means...

Shit, you're really gonna have to help me out on this one Jeff.

No.

The proof is that Jeff actually read Zinn's book and his ideologies are quite clear.

Go pick up a copy from the library and read it yourself, Boyd.

Again, you fixate on trivial shit.

How would you define Zinn's views?

Pro-capitalism?

Pro-America?

Here, from the link you lazy piece of shit:

Through Zinn's looking-glass, Maoist China, site of history's bloodiest state-sponsored killings, becomes "the closest thing, in the long history of that ancient country, to a people's government, independent of outside control." The authoritarian Nicaraguan Sandinistas were "welcomed" by their own people, while the opposition Contras, who backed the candidate that triumphed when free elections were finally held, were a "terrorist group" that "seemed to have no popular support inside Nicaragua." Castro's Cuba, readers learn, "had no bloody record of suppression."

Jeff-
Thanks for the link.

so, here is your train of 'thought', as near as I can piece it together:

You found a site on the internets that describes Zinn as a "Marxist", so you then feel free to describe Zinn as a "self-avowed Marxist".

Got it.

And now you wish to ramble about "Pro-America", which is now on the internets, so maybe next you will describe Zinn as a "self-avowed Anti-american"?

Is that how your mind works?

This has been very edifying, Jeff.

How would you characterize Zinn's worldview, Boyd?

Have you read any of his stuff?

I seriously doubt it, because if you had you wouldn't be contentious about this.

This has been very edifying, Jeff.

I am sure it has.

Again, please characterize Zinn's worldview for the class. It should be easy for you to do since you apparently know so much about him.

You found a site on the internets that describes Zinn as a "Marxist", so you then feel free to describe Zinn as a "self-avowed Marxist".

No. Per usual you have it wrong.

My statement originates from reading his most popular "history" book. And, because you were getting your vagina all twisted, I supplied you a link that had some direct quotes from Zinn (you probably read about as much of the link as you've read of Zinn, which is nada).

THEN, I ask YOU to characterize his views and you can't.

That about sum it up?

please characterize Zinn's worldview

Boyd?

Another one bites the dust.

www.youtube.com

Howard Zinn passed a lens around the communal campfire for viewing American (indeed world) history that differed in its angles for viewing topics and it degrees of illumination from that used for ages to indoctrinate, motivate, and control the people of this country. For that he was, not surprisingly, roundly condemned by those whose needs and self-interest lay in adhering to and perpetrating the conventional wisdom he sought to alter. Along the way, he helped make the study of our past and its impact upon on present more interesting than it might otherwise have been. RIP.

From page 367 of A People's History of the United States:

"Capitalism has always been a failure for the lower classes. It is now beginning to fail for the middle class."

"They might conclude that physical security for a working person in the city can only come when everyone in the city is working. And that would require a transformation of the national priorities, a change in the system."

From page 368:

In the early nineties, the false socialism of the Soviet Union failed (emphasis mine).

From page 639:

"Let us imagine what radical change would require of us all....Work of some kind would be needed by everyone.....and yet produce enough for an equal and ample distribution of goods. Certain basic things would be abundant enough to be taken out of the money system and be available-for free-to everyone: food, housing, health care, education, transportation....a neighborly socialism avoiding the class hierarchies of capitalism and the harsh dictatorships that have taken the name 'socialist'."

Earth to Zinn: these little utopian socialist communities have popped up quite frequently in this country throughout history and ALL of them failed. Well, that is not entirely true, Oneida survived AFTER they abandoned socialism and adopted a capitalist model.

From page 640:

"These struggles would involve all the tactics used at various times in the past by people's movements: demonstrations, marches, civil disobedience, strikes and boycotts and general strikes; direct action to redistribute wealth (empahsis mine)..."

Those are some of his personal thoughts and advocacies.

What does all of that sound like to you, Boyd?

I thought you were alking about Harry Zimm.

Those quotes are controversial? Really? Utopian in places, sure, but controversial?

I didn't say they were controversial, Doc.

Boyd got his vagina all bunged up when I stated that Zinn was an avowed Marxist.

These quotes simply provide context to back up that claim.

#42 | Posted by chickenrancher

Look at me.

I think Zinn's views were informed by Marxism. I'm not sure he was actually a Marxist; probably woulnd't have wanted to pigeonhole himself quite that much. But influenced by a Marxist perspective? Sure. You don't have to buy the whole line to find some of it useful. Anyway, thanks for clearing that up, Jeff.

Doc,

When you read his advocations they are similar to those of Chomsky, who calls him self a "socialist libertarian".

What he and Chomsky believe to be Utopia would be for this country to consist of a bunch of small socialist communities. The problem is, that very thing has been tried countless times throughout this country's history and has always failed.

Anyhow, I am pretty much in agreement with your take in #46.

That's why I used the term "utopian," as did you, Jeff. I remember during the last big rush to create communes a few questions occasionally arose which tended to presage a downward trend in the up-to-the-stars hopes of those most intimately involved in the experiment: (1) who takes out the trash (as in who does the work, when, etc.); (2) who gets to sleep with whom; and (3) who the hell's in charge?

Quick add on to that.

The best you can probably get out of a utopian commmue experiment? The Shakers.

The worst? Charlie Manson.

He's just a semi-talented linguist who mistakenly thinks his trivial little sliver of expertise in his field somehow translates into people giving a fuck about his politics.

Noam Chomsky is one of the most influential liberal intellectuals in the world. If you disagree with the guy, fine, but to suggest that people don't care about his political beliefs is disputed by reality.

As for him being "semi-talented" in linguistics, he has received a staggering number of honors for his academic work.

He was a "cunning linguist"....

Noam Chomsky is one of the most influential liberal intellectuals in the world.

That says a lot more about liberals than it does Noam Chomsky.

Rcade,

In all likelihood, were it not for evil 'Bushco' Chomsky would have probably continued his slide toward less and less relevance. His absurd apologetics for Pol Pot were more than most leftists could even stomach.

That says a lot more about liberals than it does Noam Chomsky.

That's your entire comeback? You were wrong to claim that he's "semi-talented" and no one cares about his politics. Maybe that's the world you want to live in, but it isn't this one.

Interestigly, JJ's quotes seem to be covering hypothetical ideas and not any actual advocacy of any policy.

IDK you seem to be a little wild eyed and frothing at the mouth over this guy. As well you should be your "conservative" heroes abhor anything that mike wake the sheep up to the fact that they are being sheered.

Salary,

Read the chapter in its entirety - his advocacies are pretty clear (were pretty clear - he's deceased now).

"What he and Chomsky believe to be Utopia would be for this country to consist of a bunch of small socialist communities."

What a lot of horseshit. JeffJ's opinions about Chomsky come not from reading Chomsky but rightwing critics of Chomsky, like Psycho_Mao.

I think I will read his book, if I can find the time.

But in the framework of this debate you have not made your case effectively at all

Who?

What a lot of horseshit. JeffJ's opinions about Chomsky come not from reading Chomsky but rightwing critics of Chomsky

Actually, I found Zinn's little Utopia and Chomsky's 'socialist libertarianism' to be very similar.

I think I will read his book, if I can find the time.

It's a mixed-bag and don't let it's lenght fool you (approx. 680 pages). He uses a lot of quotes which make the pages have more spaces than text on occasion. I like that it tells a part of this country's history that is often overlooked. But, at the same time, it is ridiculously biased and at times, just plain ridiculous. I think it's a good supplement to any broad-telling of US history, but it's just that - a supplement. Take it with a grain of salt and keep his biases in perspective.

But in the framework of this debate you have not made your case effectively at all

I have stated that he's a Marxist and have provided quotes to back it up. It's really not a big deal - Boyd just wanted to make it into a big deal. I read the book at the prodding of my Marxist buddy Nullifidian (that is true). All in all, I am glad I read it.

Although his unabashed apologetics for Pol Pot even caused some of his peers to roll their eyes as evidence of the attrocities mounted.

Jeff believes the Rtard meme that Chomsky was an "unabashed apologist" for Pol Pot?

* rolls eyes *

Chomsky criticism of the way the western press and US government acted regarding Cambodia made him the victim of a campaign of slander and lies that was so insidiously "successful" that it still resonates in some people's minds today.

Chomsky's main criticisms had to do with the hypocrisy inherent in the fact that the American role in creating and perpetuating the Khmer Rouge and their subsequent genocidal antics was largely ignored by western press. The pre-1975 bombings ordered by Kissinger and Nixon, the millions of dollars worth of support fer the better part of a decade before Pol Pot was conveniently "discovered" by the western MSM to be a monster. The nudge nudge wink wink of allowing China to continue supplying Pol Pot when he got too hot fer the US to continue to support openly. The fact that while the US was demonizing Pol Pot too late they were also snuggling up to Suharto in Indonesia who was slaughtering powerless folks in East Timor all with the blessing of the west.

Truths too inconvenient fer inclusion in America's documents of record fer the most part.

Chomsky, like Zinn, spoke truth to power.

America needs more thinkers like them not less and now yer down one.

"A people's history..." is a must read by Spud''s lights.

RIP Howard Zinn.

Be Well.

/As he do, biatches
stage left.

Chomsky's minor criticisms...

There.

FTFY.

Spud,

As the unassailabe evidence mounted Chomsky denied the obvious, and in the same stroke of a pen denounced certain right-leaning governments for far less based upon much less evidence.

Chomsky, like Zinn, spoke truth to power.

Bullshit.

Both of them spoke something more akin to bullshit than truth to power.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at the haters who see fit to kiss off Zinn's scathing indictment of what the corporate profit motive has perpetrated on the human race with a simple label: marxist. If caring about the plight of capitalism's victims makes me a marxist too, well hell, color me as one. Howard Zinn may have been our last honest historian. herm

"Those quotes are controversial? Really? Utopian in places, sure, but controversial?"

Zinn's shortcoming was less about his critique of capitalism and western culture than it was apologizing for those anti-capitalist and anti-western elements that were undeniably worse. Were the Pinkerton detectives extreme? Certainly. They probably needed to be when dealing with organizations that had no compunction about killing any and all that stood in the way of their establishing a "dictatorship of the proletariat." Were the natives in the US treated poorly? Yep. Would they have been better off if, instead of being overrun by western Europeans, they had been overrun by the Russians? Later to become another communist colony? Or maybe the Japanese, where they would have become slaves, like the Filipinos and Chomorrans.

I also recall reading that the reason Zinn only joined the Army Air Corps after Hitler invaded the Soviet Union. Like many communists, he had been an opponent of the war. Up until Comrade Stalin issues orders via the comintern that all Communist Parties worldwide were to support the allied war effort.

Howard Zinn was just another extremist who believed that totalitarianism was justified in order to shape the world in his own image. Just like Marx, Lenin, Hitler, Stalin, and many others.

Zinn means well, but is misguided. I've read Peoples' and I mostly like it for the way it shows just how precisely history repeats itself, over and over and over again.

But Zinn makes the mistake that so many liberals make. They blame capitalism, when they should be blaming fascism. It isn't free markets that have caused calamities in America. Rather, it's government and central bank manipulation of those markets that causes the real problems.

Regardless, RIP.

That's your entire comeback?

Essentially, yes.

Linguistic universals are a neat concept, and proud we are of Noam for all of that.

*clap clap*

But your oxymoronic characterization of him as a "liberal intellectual" is silly.

Chomsky began to pretend he had something to offer the world regarding his critique of U.S. foreign policy during the Vietnam era---thereby ensuring he had a receptive and uncritical audience willing to lap up anything that sounded even remotely like a rejection of the bourgeois norms.

The academic Chomsky found patterns in language that may or may not suggest that our ability to use language is innate.

The leftist hack Chomsky decided his little slivers of data regarding language could be extrapolated to infer that patterns of cultural and political development were also innate---so it was therefore cruel that the big meany United States was attempting to impose its will on the indigenous people of southeast Asia.

Because, God knows, what could be a more "innate" and natural than a bunch of rice-farming gooks in Vietnam being forced into an economic and political system manufactured by a 19th century German Jew?

His despicable obfuscation for the crimes of Pol Pot were the icing on the cake.

Using specious (if not creative) argumentation to simply transfer moral responsibility for horrific acts of mass murder from the perpetrator to "the corporations", or "the west", or "the white people", or "the United States" isn't an intellectual pursuit.

It's a template.

So yes, Noam Chomsky is from that unfortunate line of American pseudo-intellectuals whose appeal is primarily confined to trust-funded undergraduates desperately searching that "edgy" perspective they think mommy and daddy sent them to the university to acquire.

And when you refer to him as "one of the most influential liberal intellectuals in the world", you're saying far more about liberals than you are about Noam Chomsky---because serious people long ago ceased taking him seriously.


Jeff J-
Here's the deal, dude. You can clip quotes from Zinn from noon to midnight, but what "self avowed Marxist" means is that that's what one refers to onself, you big fucking dumbass.
So, until you can quote Zinn as claiming himself a "marxist", you really should STFU.

"whose appeal is primarily confined to trust-funded undergraduates desperately searching that "edgy" perspective "
...
#67 | Posted by jak_se_mao

"Edgy" is Pinochet Mao's word of the week, replacing the former favorite, "specious". Next week, "Hegel" will return to the trustfund poser's lineup.

You're paying pretty close attention, bitch.

That tells me all I need to know.

Little tropes like that are pretty obvious, Jacque...eh?

So, until you can quote Zinn as claiming himself a "marxist", you really should STFU.

#68 | Posted by BetelG at 2010-01-29 01:28 AM

My God you get all knotted up over the stupidest shit.

The guy is a Marxist - it's plain as day.

The fact that he doesn't come right out and call himself a Marxist, directly, doesn't change the fact that it's what he is.

You find the strangest shit to get all bitchy over. Does he come right out and say, "I am a Marxist."? Not that I have seen. Is it clear that he IS a Marxist? Yep, pretty fucking clear you collossal douche.

So, "self-avowed" was a slightly inaccurate choice of words. "Unrepentnant" or "staunch" probably would have been better. It's pretty pathetic that you have to stoop to such inconsequential trivial semantics in order to "win" an argument.

Do you EVER discuss anything substantive?

Ahem. Boyd's wife.

"So, "self-avowed" was a slightly inaccurate choice of words."
...
#72 | Posted by JeffJ

No, it was totally inaccurate. You're just trying to weasel out of your mistake and make Boyd the issue. Whether you think Zinn is a "marxist" or not is irrelevant.

No, it was totally inaccurate.

Who fuckign gives a shit.

It was such a minor point of contention in the first place, and, if you'll read my last post, I DID admit my mistake.

And yes, he IS...WAS a Marxist.

But your oxymoronic characterization of him as a "liberal intellectual" is silly.

Ha ha -- no liberals are intellectuals! You totally slammed us, dude.


You made the assertion, Jeff, and it's clear you can't back it up.

So retract it, prove it, or STFU.

#23 | Posted by BetelG

He did prove it!

You asked if Zinn is a Maxist and everyone on this thread has said YES, just read the book and you will see it for yourself.

So, now you much STFU! LOL

My God you get all knotted up over the stupidest shit.

#72 | Posted by JeffJ

Agreed.

I really don't understand this hunger to trash the US. The man was a piece of shit out to make a buck as Sarah Palin quit her job to make a buck.

everyone on this thread has said YES

Well that is certainly rock solid evidence.

LOL!

The man was a piece of shit out to make a buck

But I thought the righties were all for profits and making money.

Shazamm the world changes.

Or is it that you did not agree with his philosphy so then it is bad to profit off it?

"I really don't understand this hunger to trash the US."

Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.
~The Wizard
Emerald City
1939

Eddie, how much of Zinn's work did you actually read?

Jeff J-
re: The fact that he doesn't come right out and call himself a Marxist, directly,..

..makes him not a "self-avowed Marxist", as you claimed and attempted to defend, idiot. This makes you either stupid or a liar.

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