I no longer think that there's a chance that there will ever be significant healthcare reform that will be beneficial to the American public as a whole.

It's just not going to happen.

barry still doesn't get it and thats "o-tay" cause novembers coming......

It's just not going to happen.

Not when you try to ram a secretly-written, society-changing monstrosity down the throat of an unwilling public via straight partisan vote.

Fuck no it isn't gonna hapen.

And for the good of the Republic, too.

Any vote that falls along 100% party lines should be disqualified. Are you seriously going to tell me there is not ONE Republican who agrees with this bill or one Democrat who doesn't? They are ALL voting party and not in the best interest of their states.

Obama will never learn. He should have jammed it through yesterday. He will never get done.

He should have jammed it through yesterday

But you were at karate practice.

if he says don't then he really means do. what he says is most times 180 from what he does. lying sack of dung

"Are you seriously going to tell me there is not ONE Republican who agrees with this bill or one Democrat who doesn't?"

It required bribes to numerous Democrats and Independents in order to get the bill to progress as far as it has. This has nothing to do with Republicans. If the Democrats, with a filibuster-proof majority, still required bribes and backroom deals in order to get the bill passed, does the bill actually warrant passage? Libs need to stop blaming Republicans and look at each other. Brown won because the Washington leadership refuses to listen to the people. Does anyone think that Brown would have won had Health Care reform not been on the table? There are plenty of Democrats that disagrees with the bill. It's only now that they'll be able to buck the leadership. Lack of transparency, bribes, and complete disregard of the people's wishes doomed Coakly, and this will be repeated in November unless some of these Dems wise up. Some look like they are, but only time will tell. One can't expect Reid and others to change their spots.

Pretend all you want that Americans don't want real health care reform, even if they don't know it yet, they do because 16% of GDP will break our economy. The Senate bill was a terrible bill, it was a give away to insurnce companies. Weeks ago polls clearly showed Americans wanted real reform with a strong public option to give insurance companies real competition and that is what Obama campaigned on. He needs to return to what he campaigned on and put the Republicans on the defensive, make them defend insurance company CEO salaries, profits, advertising budgets, etc. and explain how those things are going to help us reduce health care costs in this country. The Dems let the REpublicans put them on the defensive for trying to bring reform when it should have been the other way around. HOw can they defend a position against reform???

I no longer think that there's a chance that there will ever be significant healthcare reform that will be beneficial to the American public as a whole.

It's just not going to happen.

---------

the people that the democrats invited to write it were the insurance junta and the drug mafia. was never an honest effort FROM THE FUCKING START!

pigs at the trough.

People are angry, and they're frustrated. Not just because of what's happened in the last year or two years, but what's happened over the last eight years."

Is this idiot ever going to take ownership of anything or get anything right? Jesus Tap Dancing Christ!

HOw can they defend a position against reform???

#10 | Posted by danni at 2010-01-20 05:23 PM |

When you don't give a fuck about anybody but yourself it is easy to defend. Just ask Jak Se Mao.

No one is pretending that Americans don't want health care reform. But there's also no reasonable way to pretend that the present bill in any way IS health care reform. If this was such a great bill, why do Pelosi and Reed have to bribe even those in their own party?

"make them defend insurance company CEO salaries, profits, advertising budgets, etc. "

I'm sorry, but who the fuck are you to decide what private companies do? You want the President to say how much a private company can pay for advertising? If you don't like something a company is doing, buy from a different company. Maybe I should be telling you what kind of car to buy and how much make up to wear. What utter nonsense.

I just pecker-tapped your Hi-C cup, Jackass.

the vast majority of americans want a medicare + system. in poll after fucking poll. the corporate media will never report this because it is just as bought as both parties.

pigs at the trough.

The vast majority of Americans don't want to pay higher taxes for people to weak and stupid to support themselves. Buy your own insurance fuckwad!!!!!!!!!

ah timbicile opens his hole yet again.

my statement stands.

"the vast majority of americans..."

Bullshit. The vast majority of Americans (80+%) are satisfied with their own private insurance.

ah timbicile opens his hole yet again.

my statement stands.

#18 | Posted by Shawn

Godd hopefully the loons in Congress think the same. It will make November a great month

16% of GDP will break our economy

#10 | Posted by danni

It will be interesting to see if anyone changes their tune when it hits 25% of GDP....and it will.

I don't think it matters to them, as long as nothing proposed by Dems gets done.

Once the light comes on and the coakroach theory kicks in, we will all get to see what the demoRATS were trying to pass.

NO WAIT, they will now bury those bills.

Anytime danni needs more the 2 sentences to explain her doublespeak, you know the bullshit is hitting the fan.

Tell us danni, first you wanted ins for all the uninsured, then you wanted to bend the cost curve, then you wanted ins reform. Obama spoke how many times trying to 'sell' his BS?

Bullshit. The vast majority of Americans (80+%) are satisfied with their own private insurance.

-----

they didn't ask the uninsured jackass.

my statement stands.

The vast majority of Americans (80+%) are satisfied with their own private insurance.

#19 | Posted by SpokaneJim

Are you? My insurance premiums went up 23% this year, and I haven't seen an increase for the last 5 years that wasn't double digit. How about yours?

It's okay with you idiots if those corporations keep raping us, as long as it can't be the government.

Thousands of posts by the left, countless news stories, millions of ignored voices and belittled grass root protesters, all demanding a bill, ANY BILL, be passed. NOW you have the balls to tell us it was a bad bill?

Well we knew that, and so did you. SHAME ON THE left for their holier then thou sell out to their own character judgment. They knew it was bad, and they pretended it was good. NOTHING can fix that, you have ignored the majorities opinions and you knew it.

demoRATS true colors!

Anytime danni needs more the 2 sentences to explain her doublespeak, you know the bullshit is hitting the fan.

#22 | Posted by DavetheWave

Anytime a statement is more than two sentences, it's obviously over your head.

what's the matter lefty, nothing to say about your must pass HC bill???????

How many deadlines did he set anyway??????

Oh I missed something danni said??

My bet is, about global warming and all, is when it really gets critical, there will be some extremely violent and terrible wars, there will be some huge exterminations of human beings and then the population will drop down to manageable levels.
Who will still be alive, I don't know.
But someone will be, and they will begin the next civilization. Sooner or later overpopulation will cause events that will dramatically reduce population and restore the ecosystem of the Earth.

#11 | Posted by danni at 2009-11-02 09:34 PM

"You can BET there will be people who kill themselves trying to avoid estate taxes....."

If they do then they put a pretty low value on their lives so I don't feel any need to concern myself.

#69 | Posted by danni

Ideologues have prevented us from using taxes to make progress for decades, look around at the world they have created, it's time for them to STFU.

#8 | Posted by danni

How's that for bipartisan dialogue by danni= STFU

ah davethedishonestdumbfuck opens his hole too...

another corporate marketing clown...

Does this mean we get CSPAN as promised multiple times?

Here we go again with Obama's claim to reach across the aisle - been there heard that. He's a claimer; he claims... each speech should come with its very own claim # for referencing.

Before it was rush, rush, rush.

Now it is wait, wait, wait.

I wonder who was really pushing all that misinformation.

President Obama warned Democrats in Congress today not to "jam" a health care reform bill through now, really means= " Shove a bill so far up their collective ass they can read the fine print without bifocals.

"Here's one thing I know and I just want to make sure that this is off the table: The Senate certainly shouldn't try to jam anything through until Scott Brown is seated," the president said. "People in Massachusetts spoke. He's got to be part of that process."

One thing is clear, voters do not want the trillion-dollar health care bill that is being forced on the American people.This bill is not being debated openly and fairly. It will raise taxes, hurt Medicare, destroy jobs, and run our nation deeper into debt. It is not in the interest of our state or country - we can do better.....No more closed-door meetings or back room deals by an out of touch party leadership. No more hiding costs, concealing taxes, collaborating with special interests, and leaving more trillions in debt for our children to pay.

Corp marketing clown, that's a good one.

here's one for ALL the demoRATS

LIARS

The vast majority of Americans (80+%) are satisfied with their own private insurance.

#19 | Posted by SpokaneJim
Are you? My insurance premiums went up 23% this year, and I haven't seen an increase for the last 5 years that wasn't double digit. How about yours?
It's okay with you idiots if those corporations keep raping us, as long as it can't be the government.

#24 | POSTED BY WHATSLEFT

It will be an emergency to fix when they personally can't afford it.

Corp marketing clown, that's a good one.

here's one for ALL the demoRATS

LIARS

#34 | POSTED BY DAVETHEWAVE

I have one for you.. scumbag motherfucker.

When you have to resort to such, you have nothing to say heh?

What's the matter marcia chokeley sew your balls in your mouth?

It's okay with you idiots if those corporations keep raping us, as long as it can't be the government.

How much should insurance cost? How are health insurers "raping" you any more than any other for-profit corporation?

I don't understand people who bitch about high insurance premiums. If you don't want to pay them, then take the risk of paying your own medical bills and don't bother with insurance. If you want someone else to take that risk for you, then pay what it costs to get some fucking insurance. Medical bills are expensive. It's no surprise that buying a policy which insures you against those bills will also be expensive.

Which brings me back to my question - how much should insurance cost, and why?

It's okay with you idiots if those corporations keep raping us, as long as it can't be the government.

you are the idiot to think there is any difference between a corporation raping you or the govt.

If what you say is true then I agree you are in a difficult spot.

But there are more factors involved in your health insurance increases than just an evil corporation. My increases have been very small over the last 10 years. Perhaps it is my state or the competitive makeup of my state or the health of the groups etc.....

Individual or group plan?

Healthcare simply needs a few changes. I would suggest that both sides meet in the middlke with their ten most desired platforms and get that done. Dems may not like repuibs ideas but u know what, they dont have to. Repubs may not like dems ideas, but u know what, they showed they dont need to. Dems can stay arrogant if they want. They will all be right here on drudge next year posting blogs about what went wrong.

When you have to resort to such, you have nothing to say heh?
What's the matter marcia chokeley sew your balls in your mouth?

#37 | POSTED BY DAVETHEWAVE

Hey motherfucker..When you personally call everyone with a liberal bent a liar, don't get your panties in a wad when you are called a motherfucker.

maybe you are a cocksucker since you have a n affinity for having balls shoved in your mouth. Is that a tea bagger training exercise..the clean and jerk off?

President Obama warned Democrats in Congress today not to "jam" a health care reform bill through now, really means= " Shove a bill so far up their collective ass they can read the fine print without bifocals.

#32 | Posted by Legio at 2010-01-20 06:24 PM | Reply | Flag: loves having things shoved up ass

Ideologues have prevented us from using taxes to make progress for decades
#8 | Posted by danni

In other words..

Ideologues have prevented other the goals of other Ideologues.

maybe you are a cocksucker

more projection.

I don't understand people who bitch about high insurance premiums. If you don't want to pay them, then take the risk of paying your own medical bills and don't bother with insurance. If you want someone else to take that risk for you, then pay what it costs to get some fucking insurance. Medical bills are expensive. It's no surprise that buying a policy which insures you against those bills will also be expensive.
Which brings me back to my question - how much should insurance cost, and why?

#38 | POSTED BY JOE

What if insurance is more than your mortgage payment? Is it too high then? What if it is 1/5-1/4 of your entire economy.. is it too much?

It is easy to compare premium cost, mortality and service on and national and international scale to see which type of plan or service is cost effective and that has been pointed out numerous times here.

Apparently knowing that France has a better, lower cost, lower percent of GDP healthcare system that 'merika makes you guys flip out..

maybe you are a cocksucker
more projection.

#44 | POSTED BY EBERLY

No projection is what happens after the act cocksucker.

#32 | Posted by Legio at 2010-01-20 06:24 PM | Reply | Flag: loves having things shoved up ass

#42 | POSTED BY EBERLY

Is that projection too?

Ideologues have prevented other the goals of other Ideologues.

#43 | Posted by AndreaMackris

Fitting, don't you think?

But there are more factors involved in your health insurance increases than just an evil corporation. My increases have been very small over the last 10 years. Perhaps it is my state or the competitive makeup of my state or the health of the groups etc.....
Individual or group plan?

#39 | POSTED BY EBERLY

Well I am glad for you pooky.. Since it doesn't personally affect you fuck everyone else right? Maybe you are just too stupid to know you are being stolen from..

My bet is you are on medicare, aka "a freeloader".

What if insurance is more than your mortgage payment? Is it too high then? What if it is 1/5-1/4 of your entire economy.. is it too much?

If those insurance prices are based on the current cost of medical care, then no, they are not too high. The only reason insurance is expensive is because medical care is expensive. Thus, for government to focus on paying for peoples' medical care is to entirely miss the point. If they are going to do anything, they should take actions that would reduce the cost of medical care. The cost of insurance would drop accordingly. Paying for peoples' insurance will not lower the cost of medical care.

Should have said "thus, for government to focus on paying for peoples' medical insurance is to entirely miss the point.

Just give me something to sign before the State of the Union Address. STFU, Rahm, I'm not signing another deep dish pizza tab or Axlerods Brylcreem tab! -Barack Obama

My bet is you are on medicare, aka "a freeloader".

you'd lose.

you don't believe me then say it coward.

Since it doesn't personally affect you fuck everyone else right? Maybe you are just too stupid to know you are being stolen from.

I didn't call him a liar and I'm sure many people are in this boat.

too stupid?

nice...

Apparently knowing that France has a better, lower cost, lower percent of GDP healthcare system that 'merika makes you guys flip out..

no. just knowing that I have to pay for stupid twits like you is what bothers me.

I know that my huge tax bill and huge insurance costs go towards the bottom of the barrel loser like you Legio. you know....no skill, no work ethic, no morals, no brains etc...

you could just try and say "thank you" and then kindly STFU like the other losers.

Why are libs so fascinated with jamming things up everyone's asses

Which brings me back to my question - how much should insurance cost, and why?

#38 | Posted by JOE

How much should health insurance cost if you have no job or you lost your job through no fault of your own?

And why.

It should cost the same as it does for everyone else, because it is a product being sold on the private market. Do cars cost less for people who have lost their job?

I no longer think that there's a chance that there will ever be significant healthcare reform that will be beneficial to the American public as a whole.

It's just not going to happen.

#1 | Posted by Whatsleft

Probably pretty good assessment.

How much should health insurance cost if you have no job or you lost your job through no fault of your own?

Do you think it should cost the same to everyone regardless of whether or not an employer is participating in your plan?

It is a tough situation for those folks, no doubt. paying $600 to $1000 a month when you are unemployed is a huge problem.

Various people keep talking about how November should be interesting. You know what? I'd love it if it were so interesting that various incumbents got tossed out on their asses--Democrats and Republicans alike. How about we have some fucking conversation? Rather than oneupmanship and fucking lockstep bullshit. Someone upthread wondered how it was possible that not one Republican agreed with the bill(s) and not one Dem didn't. I said that last summer, for fuck's sake, and I sure as shit wasn't alone in wondering that. Why these clowns can't fucking stop posturing and talk about what's good for the American public is... is... Oh, fuck, never mind. It's Congress.

(Hey, I'm allowed to feel totally fucking disenfranchised now and then, right? Right?)

Someone upthread wondered how it was possible that not one Republican agreed with the bill(s) and not one Dem didn't. I said that last summer, for fuck's sake, and I sure as shit wasn't alone in wondering that.

you weren't.

It should cost the same as it does for everyone else, because it is a product being sold on the private market. Do cars cost less for people who have lost their job?

#57 | Posted by JOE

Try to keep up.

Health care is a right.

It shouldn't cost a dime because everybody is entitled to the fruits of the labor of health care providers, for free (at the exepense of the tax-payer).

Next, transportation will become a right and we will all be entitled to possess "free cars" (at the expense of the tax-payer).

And so it goes...

Prag,

The polarization of Washington right now is high. But think about this - throughout our history the biggest landmark pieces of legislation not only had strong public support, but a degree of bi-partisanship as well.

The last poll I saw had this bill at 38% support and 56% opposed - an 18-point deficit???

Hopefully this Brown thing is a wake-up call for the Dems. Go back to the drawing board, make good on your fucking campaing promises of unity (and by proxy, inclusiveness) and craft a bill that both parties can swallow.

Obama is only 1 year in. He still has a tremendous opportunity to change course and become the pragmatic centrist that he campaigned as. Sadly, the Dem power-structure is opining that he wasn't liberal enough - that he didn't fight the will-of-the-people hard enough.

I sincerely hope he grows and learns from all of the bitch-slapping he has received during his 1st-year in office. I guess time will ultimately tell.

My bet is you are on medicare, aka "a freeloader".
you'd lose.
you don't believe me then say it coward.
Since it doesn't personally affect you fuck everyone else right? Maybe you are just too stupid to know you are being stolen from.
I didn't call him a liar and I'm sure many people are in this boat.
too stupid?
nice...

#53 | POSTED BY EBERLY

You are liar, freeloader and without empathy..hows that coward?

I no longer think that there's a chance that there will ever be significant healthcare reform that will be beneficial to the American public as a whole.

It's just not going to happen.
#1 | Posted by Whatsleft

Probably pretty good assessment.

#58 | POSTED BY MATSOP

It will happen.. just in less than 7 years when no one can afford it. The projected costs will be sky high by 2017.

When repubs and dems alike can't afford it, then it will be an "emergency".

I want Medicare totally slashed..to the fucking bone.

I want Medicare totally slashed..to the fucking bone.

#66 | Posted by Legio

Sure you do. Cancer has that effect.

Warning! House democrats, you better vote NO on Obamacare. "We the People" have figured out that we can fund certain politicians directly, bypassing the party. Sending our campaign contributions to the candidate himself, or volunteering to make calls ON OUR OWN. We don't need the GOP, DNC, RNC, the Unions, nor any other such groups. The people who get elected this way,(Republicans, Democrats, or what have you) will be beholden to us and not to those groups. The vote in Massachusetts, and lots of other polling data, is PROFF that we don't want Obamacare. We think that you are being bribed, that's right BRIBED, (that is the word being used all over the media) into voting against our will. You vote for this bill at the risk, not only of losing your current elected position, but we are also very suspicious of disgraced politicians turning up afterward with cushy jobs as Lobbyists as well. We are going to redefine those, "campaign contributions" that you get from Lobby groups as influence peddling, and blatant quid pro quo bribery, charge you retroactively and throw you in jail! A group is a THING and not a person, "it" can NOT speak! We are tired of hearing you say that you must take the bribes from a group, so as not to violate "it's" free "speech." I don't think that lie will wash for very much longer, and only those who collect the bribes argue that lie anymore. You've been warned.

does Obama have any balls?

does Obama have any balls?

Check the mouth of the nearest teabagger.

does Obama have any balls?

Uhh cnnd ell ooo ut uhd aff ooo ill ooo....

*gasp*

#71 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2010-01-20 11:53 PM | Reply

I'm sure all of you who are whining that it wont be on CSPAN have read the entire Patriot Act as well, right?

Bit fuckin late now isn't it? Should've jammed it through last Spring when you were riding your wave, Obama.

Sure you do. Cancer has that effect.

#67 | POSTED BY WISGOD

What the fuck does that mean?

If you turds could put down the airplane glue and form a coherent sentence that would be wonderful.

I am serious about medicare. Get rid of it.. let everyone rise or fall on their own. Since we can't seem to get our shit together on a total health plan provide none to all.

LEGIO, re "Get rid of it.. let everyone rise or fall on their own." - I agree. Let's get rid of inheritance and let people get by on their own merit instead of their parent's.

In the State of Mass the Democrat hold a 3:1 registration over Republicans, Independents lean moderate, and when you think of the Democratic Party the name Kennedy comes to mind. With all that the Republicans still won easly.

So what will happen in the Midwest and Southern states, where Republicans out register Democrats, and Independents lean right?

I think the Democrats are in for a rough ride.

Our President never said that the jamming of Obamacare down our throats wouldnt or shouldnt happen.. He said that the jamming should wait until Scott Brown takes his seat.. so it's either Snoo-Snoo or Death by Snoo-Snoo

That's quite a logical jump to go from "Massachusetts was mad at Republicans so I was elected" to "Massachusetts was mad at Republicans so Scott Brown was elected"

Obama's first year

SPEECHES, COMMENTS & REMARKS: 411
Includes 52 addresses or statements specifically on his health care proposals.
He used a TelePrompTer at least 178 times. (Technically, it was 177 . On July 13, 2009, one of the teleprompter screens on the left side of his lectern fell to the ground and broke shortly after he began speaking. So he was left with half a TelePrompTer.)
(CBS)
NEWS CONFERENCES: 42
Of which 5 were formal, solo White House Q&A sessions. Four were in prime time. His last one was July 22, 2009. (seen at left)
Nearly all of the other press availabilities were joint appearances with foreign leaders at which as few as 1 question was taken by Mr. Obama.
INTERVIEWS: 158.
This is a striking number of interviews and far more than any of his recent predecessors in their first year. Ninety of the sessions were TV interviews. Eleven were radio. The rest were newspaper and magazine. The number reflects the White House media strategy that Mr. Obama can best respond to questions in an interview setting.

CAMPAIGN RALLIES: 7
The rallies were for Gov. Jon Corzine, D-N.J., gubernatorial candidate Creigh Deeds, D-Va, and U.S. Senate Candidate Martha Coakley, D-Mass. All of them lost.

I guess the campaign total ignores his 2 campaigns to copenhagen, which he lost too!

Yeah don't jam this thru, obama NEEDS brown and other republicans involved......

so he has some one to blame things on!

I'm sure all of you who are whining that it wont be on CSPAN have read the entire Patriot Act as well, right?

I didn't think liberals were stupid enough to bring up the Patriot Act anymore. Did you forget that you have a Democrat president and a Democrat majority in Congress? Time to repeal the Patriot Act if you hate it so much (I do). Let me know when Obama decides to care.

Apparently knowing that France has a better, lower cost, lower percent of GDP healthcare system that 'merika makes you guys flip out..

no. just knowing that I have to pay for stupid twits like you is what bothers me.
I know that my huge tax bill and huge insurance costs go towards the bottom of the barrel loser like you Legio. you know....no skill, no work ethic, no morals, no brains etc...
you could just try and say "thank you" and then kindly STFU like the other losers.

#54 | POSTED BY EBERLY

Funny stuff..us lazy, sit on our ass farmers do nothing all day and rake in the guberment checks..

Laws yes..That Masters in Economics fro the online "unibersity" was easy especially with free guberment money.

Keep eating the food I make for you mother fucker. I pay my own health bills from the beef cattle I sell. Don't get me started on taxes, you have no clue how much I pay.

Sit the fuck down and eat with your mouth closed knowing food you eat was made for twats like yourself despite "you" being, well "you"..

LEGIO, re "Get rid of it.. let everyone rise or fall on their own." - I agree. Let's get rid of inheritance and let people get by on their own merit instead of their parent's.

#75 | POSTED BY HOMOSAPIEN

no problem here on that..

"How much for the women?"

"How much for the women?"

Is it that the Dems allowed themselves to Lose in Mass..??

Why in the world would the Dems not fear losing:

After the obstructionists-of-progress Party kill America's Healthcare after already ALL refusing America's Reinvestment act in anger
(in other words, America LAST)....

Dems must realize that Obama and their Party will become lame ducks after only 1 year as the obstruction of progress party will reject every single bill that actually dares to help Americans and not just Corporates and record profits as they demanded and rubber stamped in full goose-stepping unison for the past 8 years to the tune of $9,000,000,000,000 trillion dollars in generational theft

So with nothing else Left, backed into a corner; the only remaining answer, combined with the millions of new Bush emails and proof that his FBI was breaking laws, is to

SHUT down the Govt and START the Years long BUSH / Cheney / Republican War and Corruption trials
as the filthy Repug Neocons did with Clinton over a simple consensual private good time

By the time the Dems finish the Arrests, Trials and CONvictions ->
No filthy scumbag corporate lackey Republicans will get elected for 100 years, Hurray!!!

Is this idiot ever going to take ownership of anything or get anything right? Jesus Tap Dancing Christ!

#12 | Posted by wisgod

Do folks blame the arsonist a year after the house burned down? You bet they do.

America's still in a smoldering heap thanks to the inept Bush WH and GOP 'hands off' policies that let Wall Street get away with whatever they chose to and left our economy on the edge of the cliff. They were nice enough to tell us the weekend before the economy was going to melt down.

America's still in a smoldering heap thanks to the inept Bush WH and GOP 'hands off' policies that let Wall Street get away with whatever they chose to and left our economy on the edge of the cliff. They were nice enough to tell us the weekend before the economy was going to melt down.

#86 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY

What in the World has changed in this first year? I'm amazed locally at what our State is doing with this Stimulus money. Camera's on Mass Transit buses, more money for the Teachers Union, free money to State Goverment workers to offset furloughs voted for by our Representitives. All helping to reduce the 17.6% unemployment. I'm amazed at what our Federal Goverment did to buy votes for Health Care.
You are going to end up in a very small minority defending the way Goverment works. I'd rather embrace the Deomcrats I've met a Tea Parties, Listening Sessions by either Party, etc. But you seem to be content defending something that is broken.

Wis

Headline today: Obama taking on Wall Street (been underway for months, but health care has been overshadowing everything else in the media). Lots of things are afoot that haven't gotten media attention.

Stimulus money also kept a lot of people employed in Wisconsin who would have been out of work without it. Teachers, policemen, etc.

Believe me Wis, I want things to change as badly as you do. The difference is I don't want a return to the people who got us in this mess.

Earth To Obama: You are such a megalomaniac!

Tuesday's victory for the people in Massachussets and this entire nation had to do only with your failure as a president and anger that this Democrat Congress -- in the dead of night and behind closed doors -- is trying to take over 16% of our economy with this so-called health care reform bill.

The People of this country see the truth: It is is not reform that will enhance medical treatment for the people.

These bills represent a a government takeover of our medical delivery system that destroys the doctor-patient relationship and will inevitably lead to rationing of care, needless suffering and early death brought on by government bureaucrats who will only look at us as a statistic.

The bureaucrats biggest concern, as always, will be the next day off or the next coffee break. In between, they will cover their own butts and deny coverage of medical care without a thought because it will "cut medical costs".

I guarantee that if Brown lost then Obama would be ramming this shitty bill down our throats.

I guarantee that if Brown lost then Obama would be ramming this shitty bill down our throats.

#90 | Posted by bph320

I am not convinced it's dead.

In spite of Obama saying they won't try and jam something through before Brown is seated they could still do just that. Also, the house could swallow the senate bill as is. Or, they could scale it back a bit and pass it via reconciliation.

Now, I don't think any of these options are particularly likely, but they aren't outside the realm of possibility either.

"more money for the Teachers Union"

Hey, Wis, what funds are given to unions and why? Oh, did you mean stimulus money went to save teaching _jobs_? Was your conflation deliberate? I can get behind some of your other criticisms, however.

And what's a Listening Session? Can I come? : )

+++++

"Tuesday's victory for the people in Massachussets and this entire nation had to do only with your failure as a president and anger"

Really, nothing to do with a lackluster campaign and a loser candidate? Really? Wow. So will you then grant that the turnover in 06 had to do only with Bush's failure as a president? (No, I'm not deflecting to Bush. I'm asking this poster if he/she is consistent in his/her connections from congressional elections to presidential behavior.)

+++++

"These bills represent a a government takeover of our medical delivery system that destroys the doctor-patient relationship "

A reality that the insurance industry achieved decades ago.

+++++

"The bureaucrats biggest concern, as always, will be the next day off or the next coffee break. In between, they will cover their own butts and ..."

Right, 'cause that behavior can never be seen in corporate bureaucrats.

+++++

Oddly, I'm with JeffJ (hi, Jeff)--the bill is far from dead. It can still manifest in any number of ways, and not only the ways he noted. Personally, I'd like to see a new bill, one that is simple, clear, and limited to maybe five changes. The first change should be about cutting _costs_, not about who pays for them. Or... That should be second. Dealing with the preexisting conditions problem should be first. But Congress never does anything simply.

Which brings me back to my question - how much should insurance cost, and why?

#38 | Posted by JOE at 2010-01-20 06:39 PM |

Nothing! Because, just because.....

Apparently knowing that France has a better, lower cost, lower percent of GDP healthcare system that 'merika makes you guys flip out..

blogs.ngm.com

#45 | Posted by Legio at 2010-01-20 07:00 PM |

What puzzles me (not really) is why you haven't packed your bags.

This is the freest nation on earth. If you don't believe so then exercise your freedom and find one more to your liking. In this country once you are an adult you are not required to stay in a job you dislike, you are not required to attend a college or university you dislike, you are not required to marry, you are not required to attend any church, you are not required to ANYTHING but die.

Why do liberal progressives (what word distorters) dislike personal choice/freedom?

Which brings me back to my question - how much should insurance cost, and why?

#38 | POSTED BY JOE

Good question. I had a discussion this am with my wife about the perception of need. People perceive they need things and end up in all sorts of trouble.

Yes it is the argument that when i was a kid.....

But what exactly does a health insurance co. do for you and at what cost.

For 30% of the cost they act as an intermediary between you and your health provider. That seems to be a pretty high fee. and many businesses (who provide you with health care) work with insurance brokers that act between you (through your employer) and the insurance co. again at additional cost.

what value to they add? well supposedly they cover catastrophic costs and make money by spreading the risk amoung many.

well it seems to me that there could easily be a better model for this interaction between you and your doctor. catastrophic insurance only with health insurance accounts that allow you to pay your provider directly. This will free up the doctor from having to negotiate and deal with insurance companies reducing his costs. This will allow you to work directly with your provider to get the best medical care, etc.

The problem is the perception of need. People perceive they need insurance companies as a buffer when they are in reality nothing but a leach on you.

30% of your health money is spent in THEIR processing claims. That is just F'ed up.

What puzzles me (not really) is why you haven't packed your bags.

This is the freest nation on earth. If you don't believe so then exercise your freedom and find one more to your liking. In this country once you are an adult you are not required to stay in a job you dislike, you are not required to attend a college or university you dislike, you are not required to marry, you are not required to attend any church, you are not required to ANYTHING but die.

Why do liberal progressives (what word distorters) dislike personal choice/freedom?

#95 | Posted by Washboard at

Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose.

well one could change jobs if there were jobs to get. pssst 10% unemployment.

attending college is quickly becoming an option for the wealthy alone

but in america we can tell you who you are allowed to marry

and some portion of our society would like to force all to attend church.

Why do conservatives live in lala land?

Back to the drawing board. Single payer, guv discount drug bargaining, pre existing penalties and ability to drop sick people illegal. Make the entire bill less than 30 pages. Reconciliation.

You are liar, freeloader and without empathy..hows that coward?

#64 | Posted by Legio at 2010-01-20 08:59 PM

This kind of crap gets really old, Legio. Most of us form our perceptions through our obeservations while living life.

I personally don't know anyone who doesn't want people who truly CAN NOT help themselves to be fed, sheltered, clothed and have access to necessary medical attention.

Let's fix the programs we already have in place to deal with these types of people.

Screw the people that think they should have a Harley, a New car, More home than they can afford or take care of in lieu of a catastrophic insurance policy, whether personal or group.

If all middle class Americans carried a 5,000 dollar deductable catastrophic health policy you'd see insurance costs come down dramatically. People tend to analyize their situation more realistically when they've got to pay the bill.

I'm amazed at the reasons people go to see a doctor when they only have a 10 dollar co-pay. Not even metnioning the cost to employers when employees are at the doctor because they coughed twice yesterday.

Health care is a right.

Having a sane accessible HC system in place that puts the needs of the citizenry over the maximised bottom line of the Big Insurers is a governmental responsibility.

One the American government has, to date, FAILed to achieve.

Under either party.

It shouldn't cost a dime because everybody is entitled to the fruits of the labor of health care providers, for free (at the expense of the tax-payer).

Ah, the "free healthcare" meme from the right.

So devoid of actual arguments they gotta attribute false arguments to their political opponents and then act like they've done something when they trash them.

Nobody is arguing that everyone should have free healthcare.

People are arguing that medical costs are running out of control as Big Insurance cherry picks it's clientele while simultaneously denying claims based of pre-existing conditions or other loopholes.

People are arguing that the current system results in too many medical bill induced bankrupcies.

People are arguing that the Big Insurers, due to lack of regulation and enforcement of same have become a virtual monopoly and that that's not healthy w/i a capitalist system.

Arguing that having a nation where the poor aren't walking incubators for disease is a good thing.

Arguing that other nation's HC models are better and need to copied where practicable.

If you wanna debate the issue try a real argument.

Be Well.

"Why do liberal progressives (what word distorters) dislike personal choice/freedom?"

They don't, or none that I know. Why do conservatives (every single one of you : ) ) love the broad brush so much?

Liberal progressive isn't a broad brush.

The hi-jacking and then distortion of the words to cloak their agenda is becoming abundantly clear to independent, thinking people who are paying attention to the world around them.

Just watch, as it is rejected over and over and over again.

What puzzles me (not really) is why you haven't packed your bags.
This is the freest nation on earth. If you don't believe so then exercise your freedom and find one more to your liking. In this country once you are an adult you are not required to stay in a job you dislike, you are not required to attend a college or university you dislike, you are not required to marry, you are not required to attend any church, you are not required to ANYTHING but die.
Why do liberal progressives (what word distorters) dislike personal choice/freedom?

#95 | POSTED BY WASHBOARD

What a fucking stupid response Washboard. I was using France as a response to why can't we have similar results for fewer dollars. You fuckers are nothing but obstructionist and do nothings that waste America's oxygen. You should be euthanized.

BTW I have been to France many times and the culture is wonderful. It is a place I have often thought about moving to if this country does devolve into a bunch of knuckle dragging, anti-intellectual, spend thrifts shouting "freedom" and "USA, USA"(see washboard)

I love personal freedom, which we have little of now due to the reckless spending of the right and The Patriot Act. We will spend a TRILLION dollars this year on defense which is a fucking hole that gives use NOTHING in return. That number is per year! The health care deal is over TEN years! You guys need to get your priorities straight.

No solutions, no answers to problems, just a freedom this, freedom that.

"Liberal progressive isn't a broad brush. "

No, you're right; it's not.

But asserting that liberal progressives dislike personal choice/freedom is using a broad brush. When you don't qualify a noun, "all" is implied; that's simply how language works. "Men are pigs." "Blondes are stupid." "Dogs eat their own shit." "Conservatives are greedy corporatist fucks who don't give a shit about social justice or civil rights."

I have also been known to take lefties (hi, Jackass) to task for similar brushstrokes.

There is no singular "liberal progressive" agenda, just as there is no monolithic "gay agenda." Your premise is faulty. In fact, if you look at behaviors of labeled (or self-labeled) groups, conservatives and Republicans (not necessarily the same thing) are much, much better at marching in lockstep than Democrats or liberals (not necessarily the same thing) have ever been. Which doesn't mean that those groups are any more of one mind, but that they act better in unison.

And btw, the "why don't you move?" argument remains insipid and off-point. Those of us who use comparisons quite often are not suggesting that another country is better, but that we see things working in another place and wonder why those things can't work here. "Love it or leave it" didn't work for me when I was a child (offended me) and doesn't work for me now. It just doesn't make sense. (Never mind that many of us have family here, and that there are other reasons one might not move even if one were disgusted.)

Leggo,

If you are using lifespan as a health outcome (a non-sequitur when really broken down, if you eliminate murder and accidental death from the equation (which have NOTHING to do with healthcare), the US has the highest lifespan on this planet.

Oops - please insert a ) after 'broken down'.

Sorry for the typo.

Americans got so tired of being thought of as dumb asses by the rest of the world that they went to the polls last November and removed all doubt.

"If you are using lifespan as a health outcome (a non-sequitur when really broken down, if you eliminate murder and accidental death from the equation (which have NOTHING to do with healthcare), the US has the highest lifespan on this planet."

Link please.

#102 Legio> I love personal freedom, which we have little of now

Agreed.

> due to the reckless spending of the right

Nobody on the left ever got involved in reckless spending, eh? Bush, aided and abetted by both Republicans and Democrats in Congress, was guilty. Obama is doing the same, only he has upped the scales quite a bit.

> and The Patriot Act.

I didn't like the Patriot Act, or most of its provisions anyway, when it was passed. Why hasn't Obama and the Democratic majority in both houses repealed it?

> We will spend a TRILLION dollars this year on defense which is a f*cking hole that gives use NOTHING in return.

While I think there is much waste in our military budget (along with some expensive priorities that need to be changed), perhaps you are suggested that we do without any military and see how well it goes. Do you think ships transporting good to the U.S. of A. would continue to be largely unmolested if we had no Navy patrolling the oceans?

Note to Obama - Jam that health care bill where the sun dont shine

Yeah, because Wall Street wouldn't like that. Like prisons, wars, education...everything needs to be reduced to a hundred million dollar bonus for the CEO every year. In this circumstance they get it for refusing you your health care. The real death panels.

Didn't he want it jammed thru by August? then September, then october, I could go on and on.

"Why hasn't Obama and the Democratic majority in both houses repealed it?"

Probably for the same reason that they (yes, I know, some of the "they" have been replaced) passed it in the first place (more or less): 'cause they're fuckin' cowards who (1) are willing to give up liberty for a bit of (perceived) security, and (2) they have hypersensitivity to calls for "patriotism."

Ah, hell, I'm gettin' my dander up again. Now I'm not gonna just report on the Tea Party convention; I'm gonna start buyin' into their rhetoric.

This is Real Simple: We don't want the government controlling whether or not we get medical treatment.

does Obama have any balls?

Check the mouth of the nearest teabagger.

#70 | Posted by ZombieHunter at 2010-01-20 11:33 PM | Reply | Flag
Zombie hunter is a fucking fag for sure