Quick RCADE, get this thread on the Front Page.

This is important, too:

The U.S. economy is still grappling with the consequences of the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression; trillions of dollars of potential income have been lost; the lives of millions have been damaged, in some cases irreparably, by mass unemployment; millions more have seen their savings wiped out; hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, will lose essential health care because of the combination of job losses and draconian cutbacks by cash-strapped state governments.

Clueless calls bankers clueless. And what does he call the heads of Freddie and Fannie? Democrats.

I'll bet Corky, Doc, and Pheonix all sit and stare at paulkrugman.com waiting for him to put out an article so they can be the first to post it on the DR.

Krugman is a University professor. He has never worked in banking. He has no clue about Wall Street. His statements are the equivalent to watching Space Ghost and then claiming you can run NASA.

And right on queue the grassroots "populists" come running to the assist of the Banks.

I don't know about you but ---- you don't have to have experience in stealing things to recognize a thief!

You don't have to have a degree in Banking to see that when you utilize a service, you pay a fee.

But hey, leave it to the people who cry about no return on an insurance policy (i.e. social security) to downplay the loss incurred to the American people when they bailed out the Banks Bonuses!

Krugman is a University professor. He has never worked in banking.

True. He's not one of the people who got us into this crisis.

He has no clue about Wall Street. -- #5 | Posted by timbci

We could debate that, but it doesn't matter.

Wall-Streeters don't think at the systems-level; they think about their own firms, period. It's not their job to think about the macro-level consequences of individual firms' behavior and very few have the training to do it.

I'm not sure I believe they're as clueless as they're claiming in their testimony -- could easily be Roberto Gonzalez-like legal strategy). If that's the story they're sticking to, though, they've just eliminated any reason to listen to their advice for avoiding future crises.

Wall-Streeters don't think at the systems-level; they think about their own firms, period. It's not their job to think about the macro-level consequences of individual firms' behavior and very few have the training to do it.

Sorry but that is not true at all. Market analysts and sector analysts are very much in tuned to the system level.

The people in the front office which are firm and production credit driven are sales traders and I bankers.

Debt Strategists also are very concerned about industry trends as well and if you have ever been on a conference call you would know this.

Market analysts and sector analysts are very much in tuned to the system level. -- #9 | Posted by timbci

Sure. Which is why they did such a bang-up job forecasting the collapse of the housing market.

Snarkiness aside, I think we're using the term "system-level" in different ways. You're talking about predicting market prices. I'm talking about the difference between risk-management at the firm-level and risk-management at the systems-level.

Krugman is a University professor. He has never worked in banking. He has no clue about Wall Street. His statements are the equivalent to watching Space Ghost and then claiming you can run NASA.

#5 | Posted by timbci at 2010-01-15 04:00 PM | Reply | Flag:

Hey, don't trash Krugman! He was part of Enron, you know.

And he got a Nobel Prize from the same organization that thought Yasser Arafat and Obama (TWO WEEKS IN OFFICE) were worthy.

Krugman is 'Da Man!

FTA: There were two moments in Wednesday's hearing that stood out. One was when Jamie Dimon of JPMorgan Chase declared that a financial crisis is something that "happens every five to seven years. We shouldn't be surprised." In short, stuff happens, and that's just part of life.

Jamie Dimon is a total farking idiot.

The economic crisis that just occurred and is still ongoing had predictable, practically inevitable, negative consequences that a so-called Wall Street fat-cat like himself shoulda seen coming from across the street.

But the truth is that the United States managed to avoid major financial crises for half a century after the Pecora hearings were held and Congress enacted major banking reforms. It was only after we forgot those lessons, and dismantled effective regulation, that our financial system went back to being dangerously unstable

The question on the table now is..."In today's day and age with all the corporate over-influence within the political system is a modern day equivilant of the Pecora hearings even possible?"

All available evidence suggests the answer there is "No".

* deep sigh *

Be Well.

Jamie Dimon is a total farking idiot.

That's why he's the best qualified man to replace Geithner.

Well, fella's, I dont work on wall street either.

But I've been dead dog accurate for more than 40 years on what is nothing short of criminal negligence and fraud perpetrated by both corp. america and govcorpco.

I even got very specific durring 2007, as to what you could expect. You can check my posts, I called the turn of every page.
The only lapse, as it were, was that I never envisioned that the U.S citizen would be blindsided by our hired representatives and law enforcement, with regard to the bailouts and lack of criminal prosecutions.
And kbm, really. Fannie and Freddie? The banks worked behind the scenes to make sure the rules and provisions for both entities became dismantled, it was the only way they could market their mortgage backed securities. Without their manipulation, there were no profits to be made packaging mortgages. Before that, nearly all of the mortgage paper was held by the local banks that actually underwote the note.
Wall Street bought out congress to make this happen.
Period.
I am no fan of krugman, he hopped on board AFTER the horse broke and ran from the barn. This guy still thinks stagflation was the result of the spiking price of oil, which was actually nothing more than a symptom, just like stagflation, of the gold standard (base intrinsic value- base monetary valuation) running head first into fiat currency economies and markets. Fluctuating valuations without any real value supporting it.
Blancfein and dimon should be sitting in prison, along with tens of thousands of others whom engineered this collapse. Most of whom, in fact, would be unemployed absent the fraud that was put in place.

The worst is yet to come.

Sure. Which is why they did such a bang-up job forecasting the collapse of the housing market

Actually several analysts and fund managers forecasted the collapse of the housing market. John Paulson from Paulson & Co. would probably be the media darling that everyone talks about just because he has $36 B AUM but he was not alone. Just because a analyst successfully predicts market events doesn't mean traders and/or fund managers will listen to you. If you ever worked on Wall Street you would know that.

Just because a analyst successfully predicts market events doesn't mean traders and/or fund managers will listen to you. -- #15 | Posted by timbci

In other words, the folks toward the top of the banking industry don't know what they're doing. Doesn't sound like there's a disagreement here.

Just because a analyst successfully predicts market events doesn't mean traders and/or fund managers will listen to you. -- #15 | Posted by timbci

In other words, the folks toward the top of the banking industry don't know what they're doing. Doesn't sound like there's a disagreement here.

Sorry son but the folks at the top of the banking industry are running trading strategy. If anything you could blame the CFO for not keeping tighter controls on risk management. P&L is king on Wall Street. That will never change.

The fools in the NJ DNC used to call Corzine the Wizard of Wall Street. Corzine was a bond trader. If you put him on the FI trading floor today. He would be lost. Wall Strret has passed him by.

I distinctly remember that Krugman, like his Keynesian cohorts, did not see this crises coming. The standard Keynesian prescription of increased spending is only making matters worse. There WAS a time when increased spending would create new jobs. Now, the debt load has passed a tipping point where increased spending correlate to lost jobs. Expect the job market to shrink as the deficit spending accelerates.

Sorry son but the folks at the top of the banking industry are running trading strategy. If anything you could blame the CFO for not keeping tighter controls on risk management. -- #17 | Posted by timbci

Pick an argument and stick to it. When I pointed out that these guys don't think about systemic risk management, you dismissed it as ignorance.

In #15, you claim that bankers had plenty of notice of the impending collapse in the housing market. Fine by me, but then explain this testimony:

...Mr. Dimon admit[ed] that his bank never even considered the possibility of a large decline in home prices...

Lloyd Blankfein... compared the financial crisis to a hurricane nobody could have predicted.

Count yourself among those who DO NOT GET IT. There are two choices for these guys -- they were either clueless, or they're liars with a depraved indifference to the millions of Americans who lost their jobs and/or their savings. Either way, they've lost any right to a voice in financial reform.

"Which is why they did such a bang-up job forecasting the collapse of the housing market"

In the summer of 2008 I got out of all of my residential real estate positions, and even bragged about it on DR. The implosion was obvious to anyone paying attention.

If you are smart now, buy concrete futures. When the recover comes in 18 months, construction will rebound. Concrete is a major part of all construction.

In the summer of 2008 I got out of all of my residential real estate positions... #20 | Posted by vernon

Well, then either Dimon and Blankfein perjured themselves, or you and your calculator are more qualified to give advice on financial reform than they are.

Clueless calls bankers clueless. And what does he call the heads of Freddie and Fannie? Democrats.
#3 | POSTED BY KBM AT 2010-01-15 03:41 PM

Talk about clueless, Fannie/Freddie were govt programs set up to help working Americans afford their own homes and worked quite well until repugs deregulated and ignored oversight on BANKERS who speculated with these mortgages for their own PROFITS, something these programs were never made to do.

>>
The crisis can be attributed to a number of factors pervasive in both housing and credit markets, factors which emerged over a number of years. Causes proposed include the inability of homeowners to make their mortgage payments, due primarily to adjustable-rate mortgages resetting, borrowers overextending, predatory lending, speculation and overbuilding during the boom period, risky mortgage products, high personal and corporate debt levels, financial products that distributed and perhaps concealed the risk of mortgage default, monetary policy, international trade imbalances, and government regulation (or the lack thereof).[34][35][36] Three important catalysts of the subprime crisis were the influx of moneys from the private sector, the banks entering into the mortgage bond market and the predatory lending practices of mortgage brokers, specifically the adjustable-rate mortgage, 2-28 loan.[2][37] On Wall Street and in the financial industry, moral hazard lay at the core of many of the causes.[38]
In its "Declaration of the Summit on Financial Markets and the World Economy," dated 15 November 2008, leaders of the Group of 20 cited the following causes:
During a period of strong global growth, growing capital flows, and prolonged stability earlier this decade, market participants sought higher yields without an adequate appreciation of the risks and failed to exercise proper due diligence. At the same time, weak underwriting standards, unsound risk management practices, increasingly complex and opaque financial products, and consequent excessive leverage combined to create vulnerabilities in the system. Policy-makers, regulators and supervisors, in some advanced countries, did not adequately appreciate and address the risks building up in financial markets, keep pace with financial innovation, or take into account the systemic ramifications of domestic regulatory actions.[39]

referenced wikipedia

So, while Americans LOST their homes due to losing jobs and increases in healthcare costs during the repug admin., after being victims of predatory lending practices, as with katrina, the repug dupes place the blame solely on the VICTIMS and not the perps....eh?

And so it goes......and this is history repeating itself for those who remember reagan allowing banks to foreclose on family farmers in the 80's due to similar predatory, variable rate interest loans.....

Who's the more clueless, the victims, or the dupes who spew support for huge banks who created these problems, while ignoring their culpability in the issue?

What would Krugman know?

He's just a Nobel Prize winning economist who had the intelligence and courage to warn everyone of the impending financial crisis a year or two BEFORE it got to that point and was likewise shouted down by the repugs.....

And now, whenever his name comes up, he is smeared with Enron, tho he only was a short term consultant who provided 4 workshops for them at a Houston conference and was one of the first to also warn everyone of their bad practices......

Just more "blame/smear the messenger" by those DUPED by the real perps of this economic crisis.

What did regulators know? K gives them a pass...

What did Congress know? K gives them a pass...

What did 'greedy' state and local gov's know. K gives them a pass...

What did 'greedy' investors know? K gives them a pass...

What did obama and his staff know when they sold out to wall street? K gives them a pas.....

What did Krugman know? Krugman gives himself a pass...

What would Krugman know?
He's just a Nobel Prize winning economist who had the intelligence and courage to warn everyone of the impending financial crisis a year or two BEFORE it got to that point and was likewise shouted down by the repugs.....
And now, whenever his name comes up, he is smeared with Enron, tho he only was a short term consultant who provided 4 workshops for them at a Houston conference and was one of the first to also warn everyone of their bad practices......
Just more "blame/smear the messenger" by those DUPED by the real perps of this economic crisis.

#23 | POSTED BY WOKE

The fucking retards here would say that he didn't even though that is an outright lie and sources cited in the NYT and Newsweek and his syndicated column would tell you otherwise. They(the right) won't give credit to anyone not on "their side" and will burn and tear down anyone that doesn't believe as they do. Scumbags..

There are two choices for these guys -- they were either clueless, or they're liars with a depraved indifference to the millions of Americans who lost their jobs and/or their savings. Either way, they've lost any right to a voice in financial reform.

#19 | Posted by Phoenix

I'll take choice number two for $400 please.

Phoenix is correct and I have a suspicion millions of Americans agree with this angle.

And right on queue the grassroots "populists" come running to the assist of the Banks.

I don't know about you but ---- you don't have to have experience in stealing things to recognize a thief!

-------

repeated for emphasis.

one marketing cocksucker after another.

What would Krugman know?
He's just a Nobel Prize winning economist who had the intelligence and courage to warn everyone of the impending financial crisis a year or two BEFORE it got to that point and was likewise shouted down by the repugs.....

Oh boy Woke...is it time for me to smash you over the head with Paul Krugman reality again? Last time I did it, we didn't see you again in the thread. That reason alone is tempting enough.

As for Kaptain Krugman, bankers don't need to know anything but this: Any behavior, no matter how egregious or criminal, will be insured by the US government with a few idle threats. Who really cares if you know what you're doing when that axiom always holds true?

There are two choices for these guys -- they were either clueless, or they're liars with a depraved indifference to the millions of Americans who lost their jobs and/or their savings. Either way, they've lost any right to a voice in financial reform.

-------------

#3 they are doing everything they can to make the rich richer and bankrupt the rest to keep them powerless.

The fucking retards here would say that he didn't even though that is an outright lie and sources cited in the NYT and Newsweek and his syndicated column would tell you otherwise. They(the right) won't give credit to anyone not on "their side" and will burn and tear down anyone that doesn't believe as they do. Scumbags..

Krugman begged for economic disaster as much as these "clueless" bankers. The only difference was he didn't have a iron in the fire, so there was no point for him to continue acting clueless. Now he's portrayed as a prognosticating genius.

I don't know why Krugman has become such a darling of the loons. He is a college professor.In reality, he is no different that professor of Macroeconomics at Brookdale Community College. He just has more exposure with his column in a liberal newspaper that is close to bankrupcy.

Goldman Sachs receive 81% bonus hike.

The single largest compensation in Goldman Sachs history was when Corzine made the senior partners vote on going public a secret ballot so partners would not be looked as being greedy. My neighbor at the time made 70 million. He then retired and started a hedge fund

Bankers without a clue followed with The Sequal: Dem govt without a clue.

seuqal = sequel

Blancfein and dimon should be sitting in prison, along with tens of thousands of others whom engineered this collapse. Most of whom, in fact, would be unemployed absent the fraud that was put in place.

The worst is yet to come.

#14 | Posted by gitmboy

Gitm boy, would agree with you on Blankfein but not Dimon--Jamie Dimon was one of those rare ones that didn't participate in CDOs much--in fact, when he learned early on that his company was, he told those responsible to get rid of them--the mortgage business was not the area that got JPMorgan in trouble.

Count yourself among those who DO NOT GET IT. There are two choices for these guys -- they were either clueless, or they're liars with a depraved indifference to the millions of Americans who lost their jobs and/or their savings. Either way, they've lost any right to a voice in financial reform.

#19 | Posted by Phoenix

Yep, a lot of the fault lies at the foot of bankers but this wouldn't have happened if government had done its' job.

Either way, they've lost any right to a voice in financial reform.

#19 | Posted by Phoenix

How about adding to that list the SEC who allowed the banks increasing leverage, how about the rating agencies that still exist, how about those that supported the community reinvestment act that spawned the corrupt ACORN, the child of the neomarxist, Saul Alinsky, that used his technigues to intimidate banks/brokers to make pathetic loans, how about Barney Flank, Chris Dodd and Barack Obama etal.who blocked Fannie and Freddie reform in 2005 thus allowing them to leverage 60:1 and packaging these pathetic loans to the banks, how about Franklin Raines who headed Fannie during this time falsifying their records and walking away with $40-$70 million.
w about the rating agencies that still exist, how about those that supported the community reinvestment act that spawnedbanks corrupt agency that through the teachings of the neomarxist, Saul Alinsky

#58

Right. As I said, Krugman was intelligent and courageous enough to stand and speak truth while being denigrated as a result, a couple years BEFORE the rw policies failed. He was smeared then as now by the same folks who ignore the role played by big banking and the speculators, who were allowed to run rampant by lack of oversight and deregulation. And those who attempt to smear him with enron are even more pathetic since all he did for them was 4 workshops over 4 days at a conference in Houston, which he was paid $37k, well below his going rate at the time. So much for benefitting from enron, eh? Furthermore, again.....he was also one of the few who blew the whistle on enron's practices once he got a good look at what they were doing.

Now, if you could debunk ANY of the info I've posted about Krugman, i'd sure like to see it. And for you to pretend you have done so in the past is humorous to me son.

Finally, anyone who uses a handle that infers spewing a bodily substance over an entire country has some more important issues to attend to imo, so maybe you ought to look in a mirror and figure out why you would use such a moniker?

It's on you buddy.....

It's on you buddy.....

#39 | Posted by woke

Hey, Woke, whose posting you referring to?--you refer to #58 and you're #39

Oh, ok.....my bad......I was referring to 28.....which would have been evident to the person I was posting it to.....

BEFORE the rw policies failed

Hmmm.... I guess when the Republicans sponsored a bill in 2005 reforming Fannie and Freddie that was a rightwing policy. It was also Left wing policy to shoot it down

Fannie and Freddie were a drop in the bucket in real terms

Fannie and Freddie were a drop in the bucket in real terms

#43 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY

American, are you "funnin" us----$110 billion "a drop in the bucket"?----with more to come---Why do you think they raised the cap on a $400 billion and essentially took it off--mmmmm. Could it be that we're just in the early innings of that ballgame---Fannie and Freddie (prediction) will dwarf what any one bank cost us and unlike TARP we'll probably not see that money paid back in any large amount.

Hmmm.... I guess when the Republicans sponsored a bill in 2005 reforming Fannie and Freddie that was a rightwing policy. It was also Left wing policy to shoot it down

#42 | POSTED BY TIMBCI AT 2010-01-17 08:43 PM

Uh, remind me, which party held the majority of scotus, potus and both houses of congress in 2005??

I see why some refer to you as timbicle now, but tim, there is help....you can still educate yourself......

Flawed Ideology Enables Systemic Failure

Greenspan noted that he had made a mistake in believing that banks would be rationally compelled, through self-interest, to protect their institutions and shareholders. This belief is a key foundation of free-market capitalist ideology -- that individuals will act rationally to pursue their own self interest and that financial institutions would magnify this rational thought to result in long-term economic growth and increasing general prosperity. What ended up happening, instead, is that both individuals and institutions ignored severe risk in order to pursue massive short-term gains. In this sense, rational self interest rapidly turned into irrational greed. While a few individuals who had gained access and control of key institutions were enriching themselves, the rest of the economic system was isolated, neglected, and suffered increasingly severe strains and failures. Furthermore, private-backed predatory lending exploited the vehicle of sub-prime mortgages and rapidly toxified a massive segment of the international financial system. Greenspan described these failures as resulting from "a flaw in the model... that defines how the world works."

What he didn't realize was that by removing the regulations that compelled institutions and individuals to act responsibly, he was leaving our financial system vulnerable to a terrible force -- unfettered greed.

When deregulation fails

In particular, Greenspan noted that the loophole permitting credit default swaps when combined with the internationalization of the mortgage market set the stage for a world-wide disaster. In short, this allowed banks to bundle questionable assets and then shift their liabilities to almost any entity, even investors overseas. Greenspan noted that the boom in sub-prime lending occurred, primarily, due to a massive demand for investment opportunities within the global economy. This demand created an opportunity for lenders to provide mortages, even to borrowers with very weak credit. It also provided impetus for often misleading adjustable rate mortgages, which Greenspan himself advocated, and which resulted in a majority of the initial housing foreclosures.

All of these practices were enabled by the removal of key regulations that left both banks and consumers vulnerable.

read the rest here:

Right. As I said, Krugman was intelligent and courageous enough to stand and speak truth while being denigrated as a result, a couple years BEFORE the rw policies failed.

Which he was begging for in 2002. He wrote an editorial about the importance of a massive housing bubble with rampant household spending to replace the tech bubble. I linked the article too...which you completely misinterpreted.

Now, if you could debunk ANY of the info I've posted about Krugman, i'd sure like to see it. And for you to pretend you have done so in the past is humorous to me son.

It's natural that you don't remember. Your memory goes when you get old...

Here's what you do: Go crack out that Web Professor disk called "Performing a Google Search" and figure out how to find the last time we had a discussion about the Prognosticator from Princeton. Reading it again for the first time should be enlightening...again.

Finally, anyone who uses a handle that infers spewing a bodily substance over an entire country has some more important issues to attend to imo, so maybe you ought to look in a mirror and figure out why you would use such a moniker?

Yawn...yammering on about more that you know nothing about. Take a little Ginko, and try and stay on point please.

Oh, American, that doesn't include the $75 billion in the loan modification program for foreclosures which by all accounts is a disaster and nobody has made a good accounting of the money.

Krugman begged for economic disaster as much as these "clueless" bankers. The only difference was he didn't have a iron in the fire, so there was no point for him to continue acting clueless. Now he's portrayed as a prognosticating genius.

#30 | POSTED BY IRAQIBUKKAKE

cite the source of sit the fuck down..There are numerous articles to counter your inane charge.

Now, if you could debunk ANY of the info I've posted about Krugman, i'd sure like to see it. And for you to pretend you have done so in the past is humorous to me son.''

Still waiting. Debunk away.

1. Krugman called the fact that rw policies would lead to disaster a year (at least) before they occurred and was shouted down and smeared by the greedy rwrs in charge.

2. The rw BS that Krugman was a big profiteer part of and who helped shape the enron criminality is total lies. He in fact blew the whistle and helped others blow the whistle on their practices.

3. Krugman graduated from Yale, MIT and has taught economics at Stanford and Princeton AND won a Nobel Prize for his work.

There are numerous articles to counter your inane charge.

LOL.

You tell 'em, you goofy little fucker...

Again, blaming fannie/freddie, which were set up to provide help to working Americans or blaming only the victims (those who lost homes) is akin to the rw penchant for blaming the lack of govt disaster response/help during katrina on the victims there.....

#45 | Posted by woke

So, Woke, can't disagree with what Greenspan said except he was a part of the problem---just who do you think he was referring to when he said and I quote: "This demand created an opportunity for lenders to provide mortgages, even to borrowers with very weak credit."--that's right Fannie and Freddie---you win the prize for pointing it out.

Uh, remind me, which party held the majority of scotus, potus and both houses of congress in 2005??

I see why some refer to you as timbicle now, but tim, there is help....you can still educate yourself......

Son The Republicans did not have a large enough majority in the Senate to break a filibuster. Chris Dodd and a freshman Senator, Barack Obama sucessully filibustered this bill. There is nothing to dispute. The current President was against reform because he planned to run for President and wanted to use the economy as a campaign issue

AIG got twice that much. Total with TARP (other bailouts before that) is over $2,000,000,000,000,000 (trillion) Still, the Repubs whine about GM's $25 billion every day.

BTW, $100 Billion is 1/7th what we're paying every year to service the national debt Bush and the GOP ran up to over $12 trillion (not counting Iraq). You heard they nearly doubled the national budget in 8 years too, right? Nice 'smaller government' 'werk'!! The same folks who did that now whine about debt and deficits THEY were responsible for. Amazing.

3. Krugman graduated from Yale, MIT and has taught economics at Stanford and Princeton AND won a Nobel Prize for his work.

Krugman has never worked as an economist. He is merely a college professor with a side gig as a columnist

Oh, they have a clue, about how to exploit weaknesses in the current political system. And that is what they do. They have nothing to do with production or productivity.

A better way to say it, is they are devoid of any and every personal and social ethic. They are rich sociopaths, greedfuckers with lotsa lawyers in a judicial system that is equally enamored with money.

v
Uh, remind me, which party held the majority of scotus, potus and both houses of congress in 2005??

I see why some refer to you as timbicle now, but tim, there is help....you can still educate yourself......

Son The Republicans did not have a large enough majority in the Senate to break a filibuster. Chris Dodd and a freshman Senator, Barack Obama sucessully filibustered this bill. There is nothing to dispute. The current President was against reform because he planned to run for President and wanted to use the economy as a campaign issue

#52 | Posted by timbci

Yep, Woke, timbci is right about that---all you have to do is check the congressional record--isn't it amazing that one of our own, Obama , was part of the problem and then he has the nads to rail about the banks--Woke, just admit that one and you'll join the halls of men.

Krugman has never worked as an economist. He is merely a college professor with a side gig as a columnist

Most economists are academics, with the remainder working at think tanks and a handful in government.

AIG got twice that much. Total with TARP (other bailouts before that) is over $2,000,000,000,000,000 (trillion) Still, the Repubs whine about GM's $25 billion every day.

BTW, $100 Billion is 1/7th what we're paying every year to service the national debt Bush and the GOP ran up to over $12 trillion (not counting Iraq). You heard they nearly doubled the national budget in 8 years too, right? Nice 'smaller government' 'werk'!! The same folks who did that now whine about debt and deficits THEY were responsible for. Amazing.

#53 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY

American, your rope a doping me---how about staying in one place and on subject and admitting Fannie is a bigger problem--yes, Aig's bailout at this time is about 2/3rds more but by the time this thing is over it'll dwarf Fannie and Freddie--also, explain the $2 trillion to me which I don't quite get.

Most economists are academics, with the remainder working at think tanks and a handful in government

If you are employed in academia, you are a teacher not an economist.

Uh, ya, OK

#58 | Posted by matsop

Shortly before TARP there were Countrywide, Wells Fargo, Lehman Bros, our financing BoA's buyout of Merill-Lynch and several others.

Also, American, AIG which was bailed out to the tune of about $185 billion have paid back all of it except for about $62 billion---so, you can see Fannie and Freddie have already cost more and will much more in the future---Oh, another point TARP only has a deficit of about $140 billion (that's not trillion).

Shortly before TARP there were Countrywide, Wells Fargo, Lehman Bros, our financing BoA's buyout of Merill-Lynch and several others.

#61 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY
American, Lehman went bankrupt and Wells Fargo doesn't owe a time to the gov. and neither do any of the others at this point.

MAT

I've read AIG has 'plans' to repay TARP funds and turned over stock to the Treasury. You have a link showing what they're actually 'repaid' in cash?

American, when all is said and done, the taxpayer will be on the biggest hook because Fannie, Freddie, GM and Obama's stimulus program---what do you think of that?

MAT

I've read AIG has 'plans' to repay TARP funds and turned over stock to the Treasury. You have a link showing what they're actually 'repaid' in cash?

#64 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY

Yeah, let me get it for you--they're admitting they're going to have problems repaying the rest of it.

American, when all is said and done, the taxpayer will be on the biggest hook because Fannie, Freddie, GM and Obama's stimulus program---what do you think of that?

I think deregulation was a horrible idea, that's what.

As far as GM goes, it would cost more in the long run for hundreds of thousands (including suppliers) to be on unemployment and Medicaid. GM seems to be on the right track back.

Also, I think we need a return to Glass-Steagall, which served to protect U.S. taxpayers from bank/mortgage skulduggery for over 70 years.

money.cnn.com/2009/12/07/news/
companies/tarp...

Mat

MAT

I got a 'page not found' message with that link.

At research universities (like Princeton), tenure, promotion, salary, etc., are all based on professors' research. Most try to minimize their teaching obligations through research support (grants).

American, when all is said and done, the taxpayer will be on the biggest hook because Fannie, Freddie, GM and Obama's stimulus program---what do you think of that?

I think deregulation was a horrible idea, that's what.

As far as GM goes, it would cost more in the long run for hundreds of thousands (including suppliers) to be on unemployment and Medicaid. GM seems to be on the right track back.

Also, I think we need a return to Glass-Steagall, which served to protect U.S. taxpayers from bank/mortgage skulduggery for over 70 years.

#67 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY

Couldn't agree more with you---I've followed this mess for years before it broke and based my investment decisions on it---both parties and many government agencies along with wallstreet and the Fed were responsible---when I watched it I wondered if I was the only one in the country seeing the carnage coming--and you're right Krugman saw it with some others---I don't often agree with him but when a man is right you have to give him his due.

#70 was a response to If you are employed in academia, you are a teacher not an economist. -- #59 | Posted by timbci

"AIG, for example, has said it has not generated enough earnings to repay the remaining $62 billion it owes the government, despite recording two straight profitable quarters."

I'm having a problem transposing it but the above is the paragraph ---the article was written by a Dave Ellis. I also remember this since I had owned some AIG along with preferred stock and when this was made known I got out of the stock. The preferreds have done really well and pay a dividend of 7%.

At research universities (like Princeton), tenure, promotion, salary, etc., are all based on professors' research. Most try to minimize their teaching obligations through research support (grants).

Here's a link to the 2001 version of Krugman's cv

People exaggerate their resume everyday. His CV means nothing to me. Every university professor in America does research. I am sure there a college professors at Glendale Community College doing research right now.

MAT

We sure could use a return to 'making' things here, instead of most fortunes being made by shuffling paper. I posted year before last about my time in NYC near Christmas. The financial district laid off Americans and brought in H1-B workers from China and India, many of whom live in high rises in Jersey City across from the Financial District.

What kind of rational can the execs on Wall St. use to justify making tens of billions in profits while they've laid off thousands of American workers and used a program that's only supposed to allow H1-B for workers where Americans cannot be found. It's a really sick trend throughout Corporate America, that and "permanent temps".

What kind of rationale can the execs on Wall St. use to justify

People exaggerate their resume everyday

Krugman sure doesn't need to. 40 books and a Nobel Prize speak for themselves.

We sure could use a return to 'making' things here, instead of most fortunes being made by shuffling paper. I posted year before last about my time in NYC near Christmas. The financial district laid off Americans and brought in H1-B workers from China and India, many of whom live in high rises in Jersey City across from the Financial District.

What kind of rational can the execs on Wall St. use to justify making tens of billions in profits while they've laid off thousands of American workers and used a program that's only supposed to allow H1-B for workers where Americans cannot be found. It's a really sick trend throughout Corporate America, that and "permanent temps".

Those high rises in Jersey City are rented for $4,000 a month and higher. It is not like these foreigners are working for pennies. Most of them are IT professionals.

What kind of rationale can the execs on Wall St. use to justify

#76 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY

Once again I agree--my blood has been boiling for years before the meltdown about the incomes made by execs on Wallstreet---they've been ripping shareholders off for years--the SEC can do something about it but haven't--I would go with the Dutch system where shareholders have a big say in pay and guess what, those companies do just fine. Christopher Cox was a disaster as SEC chairman for a number of reasons one of which blocked dem members in reforming exec pay--this could be done today but I don't understand the administration's reticence. Back in the 60's, exec pay was about 40-50 times the average pay of a worker and you can guess the difference today.

People exaggerate their resume everyday

Krugman sure doesn't need to. 40 books and a Nobel Prize speak for themselves.

Yes nothing like taking money from the legacy of an inventor that was responsible for the death of millions

Their rents are being paid for by the corporations that laid off Americans and brought them here with H1-B visas. There was no shortfall of Americans. Wall St. just laid them off to save money, which they have no problem shoving in their pockets by the billions in bonuses.

#79 | Posted by matsop

The most honest CEO's seem to be in Japan. They take a pay cut before laying off workers, and the ration of average worker wages to CEO is small.

As you've expressed, it's gotten entirely out of hand here. One glaring POS was Nardelli, who ran Home Depot stock into the tank, made off with $400 million for 5 years, and wouldn't raise hourly wages above $8 an hour for non store management.

I hope they pass Shumer's "Shareholder's Bill of Rights Act" if they haven't already (couldn't find a link saying it's passed).

Their rents are being paid for by the corporations that laid off Americans and brought them here with H1-B visas. There was no shortfall of Americans. Wall St. just laid them off to save money, which they have no problem shoving in their pockets by the billions in bonuses.

No They are not. Stop lying. I live near Newport in Jersey City. They are not corporate expatriates. I worked as an expatriate in Japan and I can tell you expatriates are expensive for corporations. They usually only do it for senior staff. Most investment banks have actually cut expatriates in foreign countries because of the expense. It is very rare when banks import expatriates to cut costs and it usually backfires. If they were importing staff for those reasons they would be living in some motel not in Newport.

The most honest CEO's seem to be in Japan. They take a pay cut before laying off workers, and the ratio of average worker wages to CEO is small.

TIMBCI

Sorry, you don't have a clue. I stayed with a friend in one of those high rises. Over 90% of his 3 building high rise complex are H1-B workers from India and China. He knows his neighbors.

The most honest CEO's seem to be in Japan. They take a pay cut before laying off workers, and the ration of average worker wages to CEO is small.

The Bribery of Japanese CEO's by the Yakuza is well known.

Corporate exec's at Japanese banks had huge issues with giving out loans in the 90's to unworthy creditors and then comitted fraud by leving the loans off their books. Essentially they did what Fannie Mae did

In Japan, more CEOs share the pain of tough times

79 | Posted by matsop

The most honest CEO's seem to be in Japan. They take a pay cut before laying off workers, and the ration of average worker wages to CEO is small.

As you've expressed, it's gotten entirely out of hand here. One glaring POS was Nardelli, who ran Home Depot stock into the tank, made off with $400 million for 5 years, and wouldn't raise hourly wages above $8 an hour for non store management.

#82 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY

I,ve always said:

1 In China if an exec screws up and lies and/or
steals, they execute him; in Japan, the exec
out of honor commits suicide; only in America
(what a country) we pay him more.

TIMBCI

Sorry, you don't have a clue. I stayed with a friend in one of those high rises. Over 90% of his 3 building high rise complex are H1-B workers from India and China. He knows his neighbors.

Actually I do have a clue. I know several people who live in Newport. My gym is in Newport and I talk to Indians at the gym every night. I was ice skating in Newport last night. Furthermore, there are no building that is 90% Indian and China. Newport is very expensive. There is a Trump Tower in Newport. One bedrooms start at $500,000 If Newport was all Indians and Chinese there wouldn't be an Irish Pub, Three italian restaurants, and one Mexican restaurant. There is only one Indian resturant, one sushi place, and one upscale Chinese rest.

As you've expressed, it's gotten entirely out of hand here. One glaring POS was Nardelli, who ran Home Depot stock into the tank, made off with $400 million for 5 years, and wouldn't raise hourly wages above $8 an hour for non store management.

#82 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY

Nardelli was the ultimate poster child.

If Newport was all Indians and Chinese there wouldn't be an Irish Pub, Three italian restaurants, and one Mexican restaurant. There is only one Indian resturant, one sushi place, and one upscale Chinese rest.

#90 | Posted by timbc

You're making me hungry.

His CV means nothing to me. -- #74 | Posted by timbci

Oh yes, we know.

Phoeniz perhaps Krugman should post his resume on the Ladders. Maybe Jaimie Dimon will hire him

Furthermore, there are no building that is 90% Indian and China.

TIMBCI

I'm gonna emailing him for their address and post it tomorrow. You can walk in through the gate and see for yourself. Just walk in the lobby.

51

Tell us what "credit default swaps" means and what role it played in the debacle. Anyone defending banking and speculators, while blaming govt programs MISUSED by those people and the actual victims of predatory lending and this speculation, who lost homes is fairly pathetic. But, like I said, these are the same people who blamed katrina victims themselves, rather than incompetent appointees for their plight.

52/56
So, your contention is that the DO NOTHING repug admin of the last decade was all due to dem filibusters? Ever hear of the nuclear option? The term was coined by Trent Lott.

If repugs couldn't pass their own programs with majority, you blame dems>?? But you blame dems when they have the same issue??

56
Uh, gee isn't the repugs who are always railing about how the dems haven't saved us already, since they have been in congressional majority since 06.

Republican Congress Talked About Financial Reform, But Did Nothing
Thursday September 18, 2008
According to the New York Times, in September 2003 the Bush Administration "recommended the most significant regulatory overhaul in the housing finance industry since the savings and loan crisis a decade ago." (tip)
The plan is an acknowledgment by the administration that oversight of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac -- which together have issued more than $1.5 trillion in outstanding debt -- is broken. A report by outside investigators in July concluded that Freddie Mac manipulated its accounting to mislead investors, and critics have said Fannie Mae does not adequately hedge against rising interest rates...

After the hearing, Representative Michael G. Oxley, chairman of the Financial Services Committee, and Senator Richard Shelby, chairman of the Senate Banking Committee, announced their intention to draft legislation based on the administration's proposal. Industry executives said Congress could complete action on legislation before leaving for recess in the fall.
The President's call came after "a Freddie Mac accounting scandal" in July.

"It seems that Congress doesn't have the stomach to do anything substantial,'' said Marshall Front, president of Front Barnett Associates LLC, which manages $1.5 billion in Chicago, including shares of Fannie Mae. (quote from July 2003)
It seems Mr. Front was correct.

article and link continued

In 2003, Republicans controlled both branches of Congress (108th) and the White House. What happened to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac regulatory reform under Republican leadership? Nothing.

Here's what I found when I searched THOMAS for the phrase Fannie Mae for the 108th Congress (2003-2004): eight bills .... but only six appear to relate to this topic, per their title. Of those six, only one was introduced after the White House weighed in (at least rhetorically) in September ... and the prime sponsor of that bill was a Democrat. The other bills seem to have resulted from the July scandal. No bill moved out of committee.

Clearly, in 2003 and 2004 the issue of finance reform was not a priority of the White House or Congressional Republicans.

>>read article to see what happened to those bills)

article cont:
In the 109th Congress (2005-2006), the House overwhelmingly approved (331 to 90) HR 1461, The Federal Housing Finance Reform Act, designed "to create a stronger regulator for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac." The Senate, still controlled by Republicans lagged the House in taking action.

HR 1461 remained stalled in the Senate: last action, 31 October 2005, referred to the Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs.

On 31 July 2007, after the Democrats obtained control of the Congress in the November 2006 election, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi introduced HR 3221, a "bill to provide needed housing reform and for other purposes." Among other things, the bill granted the newly formed Federal Housing Finance Agency "supervisory and regulatory authority over Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, and the federal home loan banks (enterprises)" (per CRS analysis).

TIMBCI

I'm gonna emailing him for their address and post it tomorrow. You can walk in through the gate and see for yourself. Just walk in the lobby

I was in The Portofino last night son. The fact remains that Newport is the most expensive place in Jersey City. Rents average $4,000 a month and I banks are NOT paying for their rent

His complex is on the Hudson. I'll find out the name of it. You don't know what you're talking about. Of course many are moving to Hoboken and Jersey City because of sky high rents in Manhattan. That doesn't change the FACT I told you about the high rise complex where my friend and his wife live, nor that 90% of the residents are H1-B workers hired to replace Americans in the Financial District so greedy SOB's can make billions in bonuses. For some reason I thought I recalled you lived in Chicago.

His complex is on the Hudson. I'll find out the name of it. You don't know what you're talking about. Of course many are moving to Hoboken and Jersey City because of sky high rents in Manhattan. That doesn't change the FACT I told you about the high rise complex where my friend and his wife live, nor that 90% of the residents are H1-B workers hired to replace Americans in the Financial District so greedy SOB's can make billions in bonuses. For some reason I thought I recalled you lived in Chicago.

You are too funny. I live in Jersey City. I am in Newport every night at the gym as I mentioned before. I know exactly what I am talking about.

Most It jobs on Wall Street are not in NYC. For example, Deutsche Bank systems are run out of London. Citbank It is mostly run out of Delaware. JPM is in Jersey City.Most hedge funds outsource IT to independent contractors. Of course, each trading floor usually has a couple of It guys. Your premise was I banks were hiring H1-B workers and laying off American workers to cuts costs. You stated the banks were paying the rent. Bullshit. The average rent in Newport is $4,000 a month. that is not cutting costs. If they were hiring cheap It contractors they would hire recent college grads for 30,000 a year for long term contractor positions. Just paying the rent in Newport would be more expensive than hiring a college grad. Stop lying little man

You're a real piece of work. What kind of dummy thinks it's one person per apartment? I was there a year ago, and my friend has lived in one of the buildings since they were built. He knows much better than you do. What do you know?

Just like your statements about Japanese CEO's which are easily disproven, so are your uninformed opinions about a particular 3 tower high rise complex you've never been in.

BTW, he pays about $2000 a month for a two bedroom on facing the Hudson. Again, you don't have a clue.

You're a real piece of work. What kind of dummy thinks it's one person per apartment? I was there a year ago, and my friend has lived in one of the buildings since they were built. He knows much better than you do. What do you know?

Unlike you I live here. Stop pretending that you know what you are talking about. There is no such thing as a two bedromm in Newport for $2,000 a month. a one bedroom in the Portofino starts around $400,000. Same for Crystal Point. Trump is more expensive. One bedroom starts at $500,000. As far as rental go, a two bedroom is around $4,000. You may be able to find one cheap for $3,500.

As far as my statements about Japanese CEOS nothing I said is false. All stockholders meetings in Japan are held at the same time each year. The Yakuza used to show up and the CEOs would pay them off not to cause trouble. The CEO of JAL was a member of the Yakuza and also in the Diet(Japan's parliament). The bank CEOs also hade billions of Yen in bad loans that were kept off the books. Asahi Bank had close ties to the Yakuza.

You don't live there, and you don't have a clue.

Here's a shot out his living room window last year as the plane Sullenberger landed on the Hudson floated by. I'm sure "Mr. Know It All" (you) can recognize the building from what's across the river, right?:

Last year you said you live in Chicago. So, a guy who moves to Jersey City recently knows the ins and outs of a particular high rise complex better than a resident who's lived there several years since they were new and a native Manhattanite? Uh, huh.

You really don't have a clue, 'son'. The Financial District has hired thousands of H1-B workers. Fact. Not that there aren't plenty of Americans who can, used to, and would do those IT jobs. A whole lot of Americans are drawing unemployment thanks to that idiotic policy so Wall Street can hand out bigger bonuses. Outsourcing and now 'insourcing'.

SOrry to disappoint you but the planed landed much further down the Hudson near Edgewater NOT Jersey City. It was towed to JC though near the Colgate clock.

Furthermore, there were plenty of photos on the internet like that. I don't know why you went trolling on the internet looking for a photo of a JC apartment.

$2,000 will get you a one bedroom at 50 Columbus. I think a two bedroom is around $3,000. That isn't Newport but it is a new building and there is a pool on the roof

Again, you don't have a clue, 'son'. That photo was emailed to me with a couple others. My friend was just getting off the water taxi at his complex when I called to tell him about the plane. You do realize it floated down the river, right? You think it stayed still?

You can't identify where he lives by that photo? One of us is full of crap and it isn't me. As the American Indians say "you speak with forked tongue".

c'mon. We both know you found that photo on the internet. Stop lying. There are no apartments at the Ferry. The ferry goes to two places in Jersey City. The Colgate Clock. The only building there is Golman Sachs and the other is Harborside which is offices and a mall. Looks like you got caught in a lie son. Liar ,Liar pants on fire

No, we 'both don't know" that. He has a water taxi dock right outside his building steps from the lobby of his building. I've ridden it several times. Steps from the lobby of the building that's 90% Chinese and Indian H1-B workers.

You don't know what you're talking about. Otherwise, you'd be able to tell me where his building is. Hint: There's a deserted marina just to the right of his building.

You still live in Chicago, don't you? Thought so.

#109 | Posted by timbci at 2010-01-18 01:42 AM | Reply | Flag: Thinks Jersey City is only a few blocks wide

I've ridden it several times

The only ferry in Newport is Harborside. Anyone from Jersey City could tell you that.

Son Newport has about 20 buildings. I have already established the area of Jersey City I am talking about. There are deserted marinas all up and down the hudson, particularly Jersey City and Hoboken. By the way, the marina in Newport is not deserted. as a matter of fact a new restaurant opened this Summer on the pier.

On a sidenote, I lived in Chicago for 6 months. I was covering for someone in the Chicago office of the hedge fund I work for. She was sent to London.

Yopu are an idiot. You have obviously never been to Jersey City and don't know what you are talking about

Banal idiots call other people liars on the internet. I emailed my friend for the name of his complex. I'll post it when I get a reply. You go there, 'son' and observe those going in an out the door of the lobby. You'll see mostly Chinese and Indian H1-B workers. You can also catch the water taxi about 100' from the door to the lobby of his building. Then, you'll have an iota of a clue.

AU

I believe it's called projection.

Neverthless, it stands true that if someone themself is a habitual liar, they think everyone is a liar.

(Judging people by their own standards, so to speak.)

The same is true if someone is a thief.

The word "liar" is thrown around in such a cavalier manner on this site, it's actually lost it's effect. Except, of course, for the habitual offenders (whom we all know) who stupidly can't think of anything else to say . . . and just as stupidly think that no one knows the meaning of the word "projection."

Smart people avoid over using the word because of how it always reflects back on them . . . just as I have described above. It never fails.

Notice I said "smart people."

TWINPAC

Ain't that the truth?

--------------------

My original point was that Wall Street has been hiring H-1B workers to replace Americans they laid off for some years now. My friend recently told me his building was now '90%' Indian/Chinese - even more than in 2007 when I visited. Sick.

It's not as though Wall Street can't find Americans to do IT work. Outsourcing was bad enough. "Insourcing" is a travesty and cynical misuse of H-1B visas. We have people here who can do the jobs. They did them until they were laid off so idiots who ran their companies into the ground can rake in billions in bonuses. The whole H-1B visa situation needs to be reexamined.

AU

I know and I agree.

Projection on the Retort has been a pet peeve of mine for a long time. I seldom pass up an opportunity to lecture on the subject.

I don't know much about the current status of the H-1B Visa program. I've read a few articles saying that Obama is aware of the problem and has already asked for an overhaul.

I did get involved a few years ago when a friend of mine from the UK (a tenured professor with a PhD in Physics/Pure Mathematics from Cambridge University) was applying to universities in the US for a job.

He has a stirling track record in academics but less than 100 peer reviewed journal publications.

I learned at the time that he could only be considered for a visa if the university could not find any other applicant in the US with better qualification.

Since then, he's been working on building up his resume with journal publications and securing research grants.

And that's as much as I know about it.

TWIN

A professor position I can understand, but laying off thousands of Financial District workers and hiring cheaper H-1B workers is as unAmerican as it gets IMO. Corporations across America like Microsoft, have insisted they can't find qualified IT people. Baloney. They just don't want to pay Americans a living wage if they can avoid it.

And ya, projection is stupid on an anonymous blog. Some of the worst offenders employers could do well laying THEM off for all the 'work' they accomplish engaging in boring stupidity. LOL

Woke, just admit that one and you'll join the halls of men.

#56 | POSTED BY MATSOP AT 2010-01-17 09:22 PM

Interesting how Matsop vacated the thread after challenging my manhood by accepting timbicle's BS. (see my responses at #96-97 which went unchallenged by either poster)

FYI, I'm 60, father of 5, grandfather of 7 and a war veteran. If that isn't indicative of already being a man, perhaps you must have some other definition of a man-(perhaps a DUPE who believes everything the rw msm tell them to believe, eh?)

Looking back over the thread, apparently the rwrs believe just saying something over and over makes it true, while they intentionally IGNORE any evidence posted to the contrary. And despite bukkake's attempt to say otherwise, he has not and cannot refute the info I've provided about Krugman that refutes rw smears and/or the actual causes of the fannie/freddie problems-greedy deregulation and lack of oversight allowing scum to use govt programs meant to help working Americans own homes, who instead enriched themselves at taxpayer and the victims' expense.

Enjoy Martin Luther King Day.

For the internet challenged like Woke and Legio:

You tell 'em, you goofy little fucker...

#50 | POSTED BY JAK_SE_MAO

Speaks the loud mouthed, short fat fuck from Missouri.

St. Krugman, NYT Editorial, August 2nd, 2002
"To fight this recession the Fed needs more than a snapback; it needs soaring household spending to offset moribund business investment. And to do that, as Paul McCulley of Pimco put it, Alan Greenspan needs to create a housing bubble to replace the Nasdaq bubble."

#119 | POSTED BY IRAQIBUKKAKE

Hey stupid fuck. You really think he was advocating a housing bubble? It was pretty clear that he was stating that what was needed for Greenspan to prevent a double dip, not a "Paul Krugman wants a housing bubble to occur" statement. He was correct on that point as well since it apparently happened. Thanks for proving my point.

119

So what? You still have not debunked one thing I've posted about Krugman. You take one little item and pretend it totally makes your case and it does not. As seen on this thread, the desperate rw attempts to smear the man are simply pathetic and par for the course for the smear the messenger crowd.

1. Krugman called the fact that rw policies would lead to disaster a year (at least) before they occurred and was shouted down and smeared by the greedy rwrs in charge.
2. The rw BS that Krugman was a big profiteer part of and who helped shape the enron criminality is total lies. He in fact blew the whistle and helped others blow the whistle on their practices.
3. Krugman graduated from Yale, MIT and has taught economics at Stanford and Princeton AND won a Nobel Prize for his work.

Again, debunk away....oh, that's right, you cannot do it, so instead you divert and deflect....

Woke really turns on the stupid at post 71.
#119 | POSTED BY IRAQIBUKKAKE AT 2010-01-18 08:41 AM

And btw, I'm not sure which thread you are reading, but post #71 was from Matsop, not me.

Hey stupid fuck. You really think he was advocating a housing bubble? It was pretty clear that he was stating that what was needed for Greenspan to prevent a double dip, not a "Paul Krugman wants a housing bubble to occur" statement. He was correct on that point as well since it apparently happened. Thanks for proving my point.

Ahh, good to see we moved on to semantical arguments. Watching you try and parse language is like arguing about what the definition of "is" is, or deciding if you're trolling for gay sex or just have a "wide stance".

Newsflash, regardless if you state things as matter of fact or not, when you talk about what is needed, you're advocating. Of course in classic Krugman, too much is never enough...which you can read in this article through pretty much every article he's ever written.

Regardless of your plethora of posts, you still have not and cannot debunk what Krugman says or what I posted about him, eh bukkakeboy?

1. Krugman called the fact that rw policies would lead to disaster a year (at least) before they occurred and was shouted down and smeared by the greedy rwrs in charge.

I've obliterated this nonsense multiple times. He's on record stating we need (happy Legio?) these "right wing" policies multiple times...years before he became a self proclaimed Cassandra.

I could care less about the other two "facts".

And btw, I'm not sure which thread you are reading, but post #71 was from Matsop, not me.

Wow...just wow.

I swear to god, these jokes write themselves.

Try again Woke...comprehension is important, otherwise it's just words.

Go back to 119 and click the link.

Follow the directions.

Think about what you have read, then type.

FYI, I'm 60, father of 5, grandfather of 7 and a war veteran. If that isn't indicative of already being a man, perhaps you must have some other definition of a man-(perhaps a DUPE who believes everything the rw msm tell them to believe, eh?)

#118 | Posted by woke

Woke, having you join the "halls of men" has nothing to do with physical characteristics or being able to procreate but instead, has to do with honesty and not considering facts that may compromise your partisan rigid thought processes and then accepting them (e.q.--I've watched the debate on Krugman and personally don't agree with a lot of his opinions, however, you're correct that he did warn about the coming problem along with others including yours truely--because Krugman fits into your beliefs then by fiat everything he says must be true.)

126

Is Oct 2007 BEFORE the crisis was evident to most? Was Krugman then shouted down by repug finacial "geniuses"??

Yep, Woke, timbci is right about that
#56 | POSTED BY MATSOP AT 2010-01-17 09:22 PM

that repugs tried regulating/reforming fannie/freddie.....

I think I debunked that at 96/97, no?

you're correct that (krugman) he did warn about the coming problem along with others
#128 | POSTED BY MATSOP AT 2010-01-18 09:42 AM

Alllllllrightythen

And, also, considering your #96 and #97 posts the reason for the deadly silence is almost everyone (including some partisans on the dem side) know that based on recent revelations on Fannie Mae there is no question who was at fault--you cherrypick well and there's no sense in parrying with one who won't join the "halls of men" through honest research without blinders---credibilty is lost just as Obama's credibilty is being lost and then people start to no longer listen and respond.

All due respect you are owed Matsop (however much that is??)

Your insults about your "halls of men" have less to do with facts and more to do with the rw penchant for insulting/namecalling those who present arguments that you cannot counter.

repug dereg/lack of oversight allowing greedy speculators and banks to manipulate fanny/freddie AND lack of viable job creation AND shifting tax burdens from the rich 1% to the working/middle class is what is most responsible for creating the housing crisis

Consistent with the Bush Republican hands-off approach to government regulation, the Fed and other bank regulatory agencies failed to intervene as banks and lending companies extended loans to people with poor credit, allowed others to borrow without putting any money down, and approved applications for borrowers without any documented income.

Why were loans being extended to those with poor credit?

Because interest rates were artificially low.

Who sets interest rates?

The Fed.

Who advocated (oops...sorry "said we need") low interest rates to spur household spending and create a housing bubble?

Special K.

t's really hard to believe that some rwrs are STILL attempting to defend these FAILED repug deregulation/lack of oversight policies and attempting to smear anyone like Krugman who warned these policies would lead to disaster

But, stupid is as stupid does, eh?

That's rich coming from someone who failed at reading comprehension TWICE in the same thread.

Extending your post:

WHO was in control of the fed over the last few decades?

Which party's policies?

nuff said, eh?

reading comprehension?

Your problem, bukkake, (besides choosing a disgusting, sexually oriented moniker-which perhaps show your proclivities?? TMI, eh?), is fixing anything you do read around an already FAILED group of policies that anyone else being honest and understanding has long ago admitted were total abject failures.... (deregulation/lack of oversight/tax breaks for the richest 1%-- because as reagan said, corporations will do the right thing and the rich will trickle that money down-nothing could have been further from the truth)

Have a nice HOLIDAY

#109 | Posted by timbci at 2010-01-18 01:42 AM | Reply | Flag: Thinks Jersey City is only a few blocks wide

#111 | Posted by AMERICANUNITY

Americanunity is an idiot. I was talking about Newport in Jersey City not Jersey City. Secondly, I highly doubt he has ever been to Jersey City. He is just race baiting and obviously has a problem with a few indian people living in an urban environment in NJ.

besides choosing a (deregulation/lack of oversight/tax breaks for the richest 1%-- because as reagan said, corporations will do the right thing and the rich will trickle that money down-nothing could have been further from the truth)

Have a nice HOLIDAY

Actually it was giving tax breaks for the wealthy worked out great for my father in the 80's.

My father bought a 4,000 square foot house in Holmdel, NJ in the 80's as well as his first foreign luxury sedan. German of course. I remember my father telling me as a Son of the Confederacy it was important to support the Fatherland.

Extending your post:

WHO was in control of the fed over the last few decades?

Which party's policies?

nuff said, eh?

#134 | Posted by woke

Hmmm.... I wasn't aware of Alan Greenspan's political alliances. Appanrently neither is Andrea Mitchell

We could regulate the lending practices, but NOPers cry socialism. We could break up the banks so such failures are impossible, but NOPers cry communism. We could limit bonuses to bankers, but NOPers cry fascism.

On the other hand, Dems need to wake up. Not everyone should qualify for a credit card or a home loan. Everyone should qualify for education and for healthcare, but they shouldn't qualify for the gold standard.

Of course, this would be much easier if the NOPers weren't a punch of crybabies. We could have easily passed a very basic health care bill covering everyone with limited care at a very low price, but NOPers whined about rationing; like it isn't already happening. And then NOPers do their own rationing of health care by opposing extension of it to anyone who can't afford it.

Dems need to wise-up. NOPers need to grow up.

138

You apparently aren't aware of a lot of things if you believe deregulation, lack of oversight of corps and banking, tax cuts and loopholes for the rich, and allowing speculator's greed to ruin govt programs that were meant to help poorer working Americans get homes aren't indicative of Republican policies of the last 3 decades.

What is really telling of your lack of awareness though, is how you continue to bash anyone/everyone who points out these failures and/or attempts to fix them, while you still cling to the same policies that failed miserably and have no new policies to fix the ones that created the problems.

#136 | Posted by TIMBCI

I don't have a problem with Indians, Martians, or Belarusians for that matter. What I do have a problem with is they are here on H-1B visas after taking jobs Americans were doing. There's no shortage. They laid off Americans to get cheaper people. Fact.

BTW, I just got off the phone with him. His building is 'The Atlantic'. He took that pic of the plane floating by in the Hudson from their upper-floors living room window (which offers a stunning view from Liberty Harbor to uptown.

If you're in Newport, walk through the gate. It's the tower on the left (where, as I said last night, you can catch the water ferry steps from the lobby door). It won't take you but a few minutes to ascertain most of that building is H-1B workers.

It's certainly a far cry from the Jersey City of old. I've been going to NYC since the early 80's. It looks like they're building some nice stuff near the river in Hoboken too. Like you said, who want's to pay $2000 a month in Manhattan for a closet sized apt?

Hey, youse guys from Joisey know Tony Soprano?

I have a neighbor from there who tells me about the various settings on camera from that show. Interesting to me because I grew up outside of a small city that was a hideout for Chicago mobsters when it got too hot there, and is basically still run by 5 families.

while you still cling to the same policies that failed miserably and have no new policies to fix the ones that created the problems.

Failed miserably?????? Says who. I got a great house, very little credit card debt, no debt on my foreign made car, and my bonus I received in December was quite good

Good for you.

Do you attribute your house and all to Republican policies like deregulation, speculation, lax oversight of corps, tax breaks and shelters for the richest 1% and corporations or your job and hard work, invading occupying countries that didn't attack us adding 2 Trillion and counting to the national debt?

Most folks understand these policies were failures. Even the most devout rwrs here on DR admit that.

Are you still in denial about it?

Or is it just that you got yours so screw everyone else??

Do you attribute your house and all to Republican policies like deregulation, speculation, lax oversight of corps, tax breaks and shelters for the richest 1% and corporations or your job and hard work, invading occupying countries that didn't attack us adding 2 Trillion and counting to the national debt?

I loved the tax breaks and so did most people in financial services. Speculation???? What is wrong with it? Every major pension fund from Calpers to Texas Teachers has invested in hedge funds and continue to do so. Tax shelters will always exist. Good luck to municipalities selling bonds without the tax benefit. As far as invading countries that didn't attack us? I wasn't aware Germany invaded our shores yet FDR had a burning desire to drink beer at the Hofbrau Haus so we had to invade their shores

Newsflash, regardless if you state things as matter of fact or not, when you talk about what is needed, you're advocating. Of course in classic Krugman, too much is never enough...which you can read in this article through pretty much every article he's ever written.

#124 | Posted by IraqiBukkake

Bone up on your reading skills dumbass. That is not an implied nor a recommended statement nor would a competent individual deflect from the issue and blame someone analyzing a situation in which their commentary has no bearing..

What a tool.

Bone up on your reading skills dumbass. That is not an implied nor a recommended statement...

Are you serious? The entire article is about what needs to be done and will it be enough. Krugman agrees with other criminal bankers on what needs to be done and he doesn't necessarily think that it will be enough. He agrees that what needed to be done in 2002 would eventually lead us to collapse in 2008.

...nor would a competent individual deflect from the issue and blame someone analyzing a situation in which their commentary has no bearing..

Then it didn't...but it does now! That's the whole point of this exercise, dumbass. Paul Krugman lacks credibility. That's the whole fucking point! All the while, he's given credit for prognosticating a problem he advocated for in the first place. Aside from the Bush II Administration, never has fucking up been so honored.

Paul Krugman lacks credibility.... -- #147 | Posted by IraqiBukkake

Hey, Iraqi. It's true that Krugman didn't see the crisis coming either -- he's admitted that.

But this article is about the bankers' testimony, and that speaks for itself.

145

Oh, I see you cannot understand the role speculation played in the fannie/freddie disaster.

Educate yourself.

And if you are saying you made money in financial services via speculation, such as what was done to fannie/freddie, or what enron did to the California energy markets and many, many public retirement systems, then my statement that since you got yours you just say screw everyone else, then you are EXACTLY what was wrong with Republican policies over the last 30 years.

And as far as equating WWII with invading iraqnam, I see you aren't worth interacting with and prefer to just be a troll here on DR.

You are either disengenuous or an idiot and frankly, I really don't care which it is.

Oh, I see you cannot understand the role speculation played in the fannie/freddie disaster.

Speculators , who bought investment properties,played a very small role compared to the people who bought houses with adjusted rate mortgages that they couldn't afford. Just as a side note I did do quite well day trading Enron stock in the days prior to it being delisted. Enron did nothing to the California Energy markets.Their trading strategy took advantage of the incompetancy of law makers. If you seek to blame someone look at the politicians in Cali that were writing laws about a business they knew nothing about. That is happening today. Barney Frank has never worked one day in financial services. He knows nothing about alternative investments. He is clueless. He would look at an ISDA agreement and scratch his head.

As far as blaming speculation on Republicans I suggest you take a close look at the Dems. Some of his biggest supported like Ron Burkle and Steve Cohen are hedge fund managers. Do I need to bring up Yupaica Capital or Avenue Capital. I can go on and on about hedge fund managers that fill the Dems coffers. Then there is Goldman Sachs. Gee I guess it was just a coincidence that AIG was bailed out and GS had so many outstanding CDS positions with them.

Oh, I see, in your mind, it was all the victims fault, even though many who lost their homes lost their jobs first, or went bankrupt trying to pay for healthcare due to catastrophic illness, and speculators and bankers that made profits from a program designed to help poorer working Americans, did nothing wrong.

You want to make this about dems. I see. You think privatization, deregulation and allowing speculation and manipulation of govt programs for PROFITS are not Republican policies at all, eh?

(these programs were privatized in 1968, so talk all you want about govt run programs...these were privatized, deregulated and ignored by repug run govt)

>>
Financial instability in the U.S. has continued to worsen, not improve. The key question is why was there a second financial blow up with the near collapse of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac? The answer to that question is the rampant speculative investing that has been plaguing the U.S. economy for some time.

Since the 1980s, speculative investment has been growing in both its weight and mix as a percentage of total investment in the economy. Speculative investment feeds off of, and simultaneously drives up, prices for financial and other assets. The most notable current example is what is now happening with commodity price inflation. But before commodity speculation and inflation, it was housing price inflation and the subprime bubble of 2002-06; before that, the technology stock speculation and price bubble of 1998-2000; and before that, other asset price bubbles in the 1980s and 1990s. Speculative asset price bubbles lead inevitably to speculative asset price bustsi.e., deflation.

Woke,

I have just a minute here but I wanted to tell you my ideas for change regarding health care.

1. extend the opportunity for folks age 55 and older to buy into medicare.
2. drug discounts
3. program for children than guarantee issue for everybody. children should come first.
4. remove some stupid restrictions that States place on insurance companies to keep them from competiting. For instance, in Kentucky, if you are not "domiciled" in Kentucky then you have to pay a "surcharge" to the state on all premiums you collect which amounts to around 6%. This kills a carriers ability to compete. The only 3 carriers who are "domiciled" there are Anthem (regional office), Humana, and United Health Care (regional office). These are 3 giants who keep 12 or so regional and smaller health insurance carriers from competing and I guarantee you that premiums and quality of service would increase substantially if this bullshit "surcharge" was there. That is a bought and paid for blockage of competition from the big 3. I lived in Kentucky and worked for an insurance company who couldn't do business there because of that problem. I focused on P&C instead. Kentucky can't be the only state where that practice occurs.

5. Fix the problem of "supply and demand". We need to focus more resources towards students who are interested in studying medicine including all levels of health care. We are in short supply of specialists and there are many reasons for that.

5 is a huge one to me. Anything else we do is relatively meaningless if we don't first address the supply and demand problem of folks in the medical care field.

IMHO

1. I'm certainly down with that.

2. How so?

3. Definitely. Aren't we all someone's children? What good to help the children, but their parents remain sick?

4. That is for sure. It is the corps themselves that have lobbied these restrictions into place, to insure their ability to NOT have fair competition. Hence the need for a public option and single payer.

5. Not sure about this issue. My understanding is that we lack general medicine because specialists are who receive the best pay with least work....???

Are any of these ideas covered by the two bills? Not sure how many Republicans are supporting these kinds of reforms, but we certainly have found common ground. If Republicans support these kinds of reforms, why are they remaining silent and staying out of the process?

Cynically and sadly, I cannot help but agree with those who say the Republicans are more interested in defeating any dem proposals for political gain, rather than assist with actual reform itself.

Thanks again for the civil exchange.

Sorry for being so harsh.

My apologies.

However, anyone who has served knows that brainwashing and propaganda is what is used to ready our sons and daughters to be killers. TV, movies, videogames and the internet are all used to assist that brainwashing/propaganda, imo. And until one actually experiences killing/maiming others, others being killed/maimed around you, seeing what a society becomes that is decimated by war (children prostitutes and thieves to survive, eating from dumpsters if at all, lack of food, water, facilities, schools hospitals, doctors,......all kinds of inhumanity), one cannot know the true horrors and atrocities of war.

When one does experience it, the difference between the propaganda and reality becomes obvious. And the PTSD that affects a huge percentage of our returning vets, including the unbelieveable rates of dissertion and suicide doesn't make them "dumb motherfuckers", but victims also.

My understanding is that we lack general medicine because specialists are who receive the best pay with least work....???

that is true, but why wouldn't more students go after that then?

answer? because it costs way too much to get the education and the malpractice is very high.

we don't support enough kids to go into these fields. There is no reason why someone should wait 3 to 6 months to see a specialist. We need to fill those spots asap.

lobbying from those physician groups are what keeps this from happening.

re: lobbying from those physician groups are what keeps this from happening.

#155 | Posted by eberly at 2010-01-19 06:10 PM | Reply | Flag:

please elucidate.

154

wrong thread, ooops!

Oh, I see, in your mind, it was all the victims fault, even though many who lost their homes lost their jobs first, or went bankrupt trying to pay for healthcare due to catastrophic illness, and speculators and bankers that made profits from a program designed to help poorer working Americans, did nothing wrong

Bullshit. Foreclosures were rampant long before the unemployment rate hit 10%. People who willing signed adjustable rate mortgages are not victims, they are just plain stupid. People got adjustable rate mortgages either because they couldn't afford the house or they were GREEDY. Secondly, bankers do not want foreclosures. They don't want to have all these homes on their books.

Krugman without a clue.....

158=so YOU say

>>>>

The key question is why was there a second financial blow up with the near collapse of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac? The answer to that question is the rampant speculative investing that has been plaguing the U.S. economy for some time.

from the link at post #151

I believe wingnuts have this little problem. Unless something is repeated over and over they cannot absorb it, because that is their mode of learning the propaganda they are used to getting from their favorite tv/radio shills.

(like blaming the victims of katrina or the economic crisis created by their repug heroes)