Jesus was a huckster that ripped off his followers just like Koresh.

Jesus' financial health and the 'prosperity gospel' are two distinct things.

The Scriptural evidence that Jesus had money is very clear; as did his ministry.

It wasn't 13 deadbeats looking for their next meal, but an organization of more than 70 men, plus wives and children -- who all need to eat every day.

There are numerous examples from the Gospels where Jesus has to tell his staff to STOP relying on their money and start relying on their faith.

You don't tell people to STOP relying on their purse, if their purse is empty.

Besides, Jesus was a building contractor in Nazareth, a suburb of Ceasarea -- the Roman provincial capital and a boom town at the time. He had plenty of work and plenty of people working for him.
--------------

As for the 'prosperity gospel' -- it proves that a little bit of truth (or knowledge) is dangerous, or at least silly.

Properly applied, prosperity gospel works (works great for me -- I can never run out of money) but most people can only think of it as a way to pay off their credit cards and then go to Wal-Mart.

And that is why it fails them.

"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God"

works great for me -- I can never run out of money
#2 | Posted by vernon

--Vern, bigger people and corporations than you have swallowed those words--

Mike Tyson, Michael Milliken, AIG, MC Hammer, Michael Jackson, Dubai Inc., The Diocese of Fairbanks, Bernie Madoff, Enron Inc., ....etc......

"The Son of Man has no place to lay his head...."

Jesus was poor, by His own words. But if He needed money, he had someone gut a fish. The larger point was money didn't matter.

"Leave everything and follow Me...."

His disciples were poor, also.

God wants his followers to be rich...

----

Um, in spirit but not in the pocketbook.

This whole subject is ludicrous and not worthy of comment.

There are numerous examples from the Gospels where Jesus has to tell his staff to STOP relying on their money and start relying on their faith.
By Vern

So then why did Judas accept a bag of money? Did he need it or not? You'd think he'd betray Jesus just on principle alone.

So then why did Judas accept a bag of money?
#9 | Posted by dxlingr

.....seems he was really into the prosperity gospel thing......

It goes against most of what is given or we can infer from the gospels. Jesus was born to a mother and a father who could not afford the price of a lamb for the first-born redemption offering. They sacrificed two doves, which was an acceptable substitute only for the poorest of Jews.

Translated, Mark and Matthew describe Jesus and his father as carpenters, but the original Greek was tekton, which is better taken as 'builder.' As the common building material of Galilee was stone, they were probably masons. And depending on the type of masonry work they did and the skill required, their trade could have been only a step above day laborer.

The Roman soldiers who cast lots for Jesus' garments were following the theme that Mark develops from Psalm 22, which starts with the words that Jesus cries from the cross, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?," and continues to verse 18: "They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing." Saying this is evidence that his garments were those of a rich man demonstrates fundamental ignorance of the gospels, and their many linkages to the scriptures of the Hebrew Bible.

Matthew, Mark and Luke all agree on one of Jesus' most memorable sayings: that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than a rich man to go to heaven.

Lets face it those "ministers" preaching Jesus was a rich man are the same ones that sit in the pulpit every week and demand their tithes from families with 8 kids, making next to nothing and telling them not to use birth control. All the while they wear fine suits, gold rings, drive fancy cars and live in nice homes. All hail the fine Christian Ministers!

(I just happen to know a couple of the ones I just described...)

Meh. My brother is a minister and he drives a Saturn. Go figure.

Wealth (or poverty) is not necessarily an indicator
of moral (or immoral) behavior.

There are arguably poor people that have high morals,
and there are wealthy folks that are scum (holla - snoop dog!).

Whether or not Jesus was poor or rich is not important.
What is most relavant about Jesus is that Jesus Didn't Tap.

Money? God don't need no stinkin money...

"Besides, Jesus was a building contractor in Nazareth, a suburb of Ceasarea -- the Roman provincial capital and a boom town at the time. He had plenty of work and plenty of people working for him."

Looks like ol' vern has invented himself a history calculator.

"Dear God, you made many, many poor people.
I realize, of course, that it's no shame to be poor.
But it's no great honor either!
So, what would have been so terrible if I had a small fortune?"

If I were a rich man,
Ya ha deedle deedle, bubba bubba deedle deedle dum.
All day long I'd biddy biddy bum.
If I were a wealthy man.
I wouldn't have to work hard.
Ya ha deedle deedle, bubba bubba deedle deedle dum.
If I were a biddy biddy rich,
Yidle-diddle-didle-didle man.

He wore a seamless garment... something equivalent to an Armadi suit these days... they is why the soldiers gambled for it. jesus had money he was like a rock star. There is nothing wrong with prosperity it is how you get it and what you do with it.

Rev. C. Thomas Anderson, and his Right Wing followers in the Church of the Dumb Fucks, would have you believe this nonsense because it excuses these Fucks for their $3,000 Suits and their Private Jet Plane travel over this Country......These TV Preachers who live in 10 Million Dollar Homes an owns Jet Planes, and wears $3,000 Suits are going to HELL!!!!!!! Any attempt to justify this is laughable, Jesus primary concern was for the poor of this World, he could not do this sitting around with the wealthy FUCKS, another RIGHT WING BOGUS BULLSHIT THEORY!!!!!!

another RIGHT WING BOGUS BULLSHIT THEORY!!!!!!

Chill, celery. It doesn't affect you. It's not like taxes or something you can't control. The people who make this guy rich are doing it volutarily, so it's not worth getting a coronary over.

Besides, I would think you'd be tickled pink that a thousands of stupid right wing evangelicals are putting themselves in the poorhouse by making only one rich. Maybe you really do have a secret love for the right and don't want to see them screwing themselves over. That is really sweet of you, celery.

Vern, bigger people and corporations than you have swallowed those words--

Mike Tyson, Michael Milliken, AIG, MC Hammer, Michael Jackson, Dubai Inc., The Diocese of Fairbanks, Bernie Madoff, Enron Inc., ....etc......

#4 | Posted by skizziks at 2009-12-25 10:27 AM | Reply | Flag:

OK, and how many of them humbled themselves before God each day, and always said their prosperity and wealth were a gift from God?

How many times did Bernie Madoff state clearly that his wealth came from God?

When Did Mike Tyson ever say that he was merely the caretaker of God's wealth?

Tell me when someone from Dubai, Inc., said he holds God's wealth only for the betterment of others.

See the difference?

If I ever claim that it is MINE for MY pleasure, I already know that it will go away. I deserve to swallow those words if I have a chqange of heart toward greed.

You live in sad little universe where you struggle and strive for a little porriage and then jealously guard your little bowl of gruel. Because if someone takes it, you have nothing.

SkidMark, you cannot comprehend what it is like to live with vast wealth, and unlimited resources -- should you need them -- but not for your vile, selfish consumption.

"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God"

Does anyone here know what this means?

Looks like ol' vern has invented himself a history calculator.

#16 | Posted by Dave at 2009-12-25 09:52 PM | Reply | Flag:

No, you dumbfuck, but I do READ the Bible and I do READ history books on the subject.

This is the first time you ever even heard of Ceasaria, isn't it?

Can you tell us why Rome chose the particular location? What can you tell the class about the artificial harbor, the significance of hydraulic concrete, or the innovation of an automatic silt-flushing mechanism?

What did Jospehus in particular write about the economics of Ceasaria?

Whats the matter Dave? They don't include that in your Christian Bigot training seminar? All you got is ignorance (which is the foundation of bigotry).

"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God"

Does anyone here know what this means?

If you die with big bucks you don't get inside that Pearly Gate?

OK, and how many of them humbled themselves before God each day, and always said their prosperity and wealth were a gift from God?

How many of them liked to chew gum? How many of them are football fans? How many of them indulged in any other pointless activity? What is it about magical thinking that keeps an idiot enthralled?

Does anyone here know what this means?

probably not...

What can you tell the class about the artificial harbor, the significance of hydraulic concrete, or the innovation of an automatic silt-flushing mechanism?

What does any of that have to do with your imaginary friends?

Clinton told a few lies, but I'm sure he could accurately describe the decorations in the Lincoln bedroom.

"If you die with big bucks you don't get inside that Pearly Gate?"

You don't think anyone that has achieved wealth -- in all of mankind -- was rewarded w/ heaven?

So then why did Judas accept a bag of money? Did he need it or not? You'd think he'd betray Jesus just on principle alone.

#9 | Posted by dxlingr at 2009-12-25 05:38 PM | Reply | Flag:

It's a great question, and pertinent to the thread.

Judas took his eyes off the mission. The source of the mission's success was faith, but Judas started seeing it as money.

Judas was the treasurer of the ministry (you don't need a treasurer if you are poor) and so Judas was accustomed to seeing vast sums of money come and go for various purposes.

There is the incident when Judas complains about Jesus enjoying the perfume, which could be sold for money to help the poor; the temple priests tempted Judas with silver, saying he could use it to help the poor.

So, because of his job, Judas' faith wavered and he began to see the cash flow as the goal.

It's actually a perfect example of what happens when you take your focus off your faith and your mission, and put it on the money. The money always goes away.

What does any of that have to do with your imaginary friends?

#27 | Posted by ZombieHunter at 2009-12-26 12:54 AM | Reply | Flag

The question is in response to DipShitDave's proving that he flunked 7th grade history.

Apparently, you were the zit-crusted creep next to him who copied his answers. Because you obviously cannot ask an actual question.

OK, and how many of them humbled themselves before God each day, and always said their prosperity and wealth were a gift from God?

How many of them liked to chew gum? How many of them are football fans? How many of them indulged in any other pointless activity? What is it about magical thinking that keeps an idiot enthralled?

#25 | Posted by ZombieHunter at 2009-12-26 12:50 AM | Reply | Flag:

There is so much that I could say. In anger, humor, pity. But for you is only pity.

Your questions are obviously stupid and out of context. Normally, that's taken as indifference, but in fact it shows a deep, desperate hunger for answers.

Congratulations, you have crossed the first and hardest line: you know there is some kind of truth in Christianity. You don't know what it is, but you want to know more

You are clearly lonely and, in pain and you hunger for a truth that goes beyond this threads fleeting stupidity. In every post you show it. There is a big fucking empty hole in the middle of your post, and big hole in the middle of your heart

The question is in response to DipShitDave...

I know you're trying to establish Josephus' credibility, and you're failing miserably at it. All in all, Vermin, this is quite a pathetic defense of your slavish devotion to dogma. Quit pretending that your foolishness has a rational basis.

As I said... magical thinking and stupidity go together like bread and butter.

Apparently, you were the zit-crusted creep next to him who copied his answers. Because you obviously cannot ask an actual question.

Posted by vernon

my daughter had zits until she 'borrowed' my ERE machine which kills off the parasites one's body has harbored with nourishments since childhood. In her case she went barefoot everywhere back then...

Your questions are obviously stupid and out of context.

To a self-absorbed fool drowining in his infatuation with myth, perhaps.

a deep, desperate hunger for answers

Yes, ones that actually matter. That rules out fairy tales (but I'm sure you will beg to differ).

There is a big fucking empty hole in the middle of your post, and big hole in the middle of your heart

Ah, so any freethinking individual must by default be miserable because they're missing out on your preferred batch of batfuck insanity? The more obsessed a person is with religion, the more they have to repeat that particular lie to themselves. I guess it helps you rationalize your own irrationality. Try to understand that those poor lost souls don't need the self-administered lobotomy you're prescribing...

Cc - the rich tend to believe they have no need os God - the LOVE of money is at the root of all sorts of evil.

Perhaps the rich ought to familiarize themselves with the "rich" church spoken of in rev 3:17 - the laodicean church? They're becoming quite brazen these days.

P.s. - dishonest ppl will continue in their sin regardless of their show of "sincerity" - it's just a show...

P.p.s. - the gifts of gold, frankincense and myhrr were symbolic os His birth, life and burial - the gold was befitting only of royalty; the frankincense usually burned in order to carry prayers to the Lord; the myhhr(sp?)Used as somewhat of a preserving/embalming agent back in those days - they'd tuck it into creases, crevises, and folds of the skin to deter odors and bacteria prior to burials.

Very interesting and worthy study.

if you go to a poor Southern town you will find a huge house among the poor shacks, usually with a gated wall, that's the minister's house. Jesus would love it!

if you go to a poor Southern town you will find a huge house among the poor shacks, usually with a gated wall, that's the minister's house.

I've never seen that and I've been to a lot of poor southern towns.

Cc - the rich tend to believe they have no need os God - the LOVE of money is at the root of all sorts of evil.

Perhaps the rich ought to familiarize themselves with the "rich" church spoken of in rev 3:17 - the laodicean church? They're becoming quite brazen these days.

#35 | Posted by nanc at 2009-12-26 01:52 AM

Yet "root of all evil" or not, I still sing this song to Him everyday --

"Oooooh Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz
My friends all drive Porsches, I must make amends
Worked hard all my lifetime, no help from my friends,
Sooooo Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz"

But every time I look in my garage, He still hasn't answered me. lol

btw - Hope you and your family had a nice Christmas, nanc.

But every time I look in my garage, He still hasn't answered me. lol

God hates a Benz. They're from Germany and Hitler was, too.

If you prayed for a Shelby Cobra, on the other hand...

OK, and how many of them humbled themselves before God each day, and always said their prosperity and wealth were a gift from God?

......since god is imaginary, the effect this has on your financial status is coincidental at best, schizophrenic at worst......

How many times did Bernie Madoff state clearly that his wealth came from God?
When Did Mike Tyson ever say that he was merely the caretaker of God's wealth?
Tell me when someone from Dubai, Inc., said he holds God's wealth only for the betterment of others.
See the difference?

......no.....you sound as crazy as they are.......

You live in sad little universe where you struggle and strive for a little porriage and then jealously guard your little bowl of gruel.

......sounds like I live in a work house in Victorian England.....you are denigrating me to enhance yourself......(sin of pride, but I won't tell on you)

SkidMark, you cannot comprehend what it is like to live with vast wealth, and unlimited resources -- should you need them -- but not for your vile, selfish consumption.
#21 | Posted by vernon

......on the delusional scale, you have crossed over from a "True Believer" into the "Reverend Phelps Crazy Zone", I expect you will be spending the weekend on some streetcorner yelling and waving a Bible at passersby.......

You don't think anyone that has achieved wealth -- in all of mankind -- was rewarded w/ heaven?
#28 | Posted by happyending

......are you calling Christ a liar ?......

Chill, celery. It doesn't affect you. It's not like taxes or something you can't control. The people who make this guy rich are doing it volutarily, so it's not worth getting a coronary over.
Besides, I would think you'd be tickled pink that a thousands of stupid right wing evangelicals are putting themselves in the poorhouse by making only one rich. Maybe you really do have a secret love for the right and don't want to see them screwing themselves over. That is really sweet of you, celery.

#20 | POSTED BY GOATMAN AT 2009-12-26 12:09 AM | REPLY | FLAG:

"It doesn't affect you."

????

There are US Senators who subscribe to this ideology. Look at C-Street.

SkidMark, you cannot comprehend what it is like to live with vast wealth, and unlimited resources -- should you need them -- but not for your vile, selfish consumption.
#21 | POSTED BY VERNON AT 2009-12-26 12:33 AM | REPLY | FLAG:

Being able to purchase two asian lady-boy mail-order brides is your idea of vast wealth?

There are US Senators who subscribe to this ideology. Look at C-Street.

Could be -- I don't know. I've never heard of ny. But a televangealist has zero influence on your life unless you let him. If that senator asks you for money in the name of god and you give it to him, it's your own fault, not his.

Mat 6:19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

Mat 6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

Mat 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

#47 | POSTED BY WOKE

As opposed to:

2"Thus, when you give alms, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.
3But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,
4so that your alms may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you. (Matt. 6:2-4)

17"Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." (Mark 12:17)

1He looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the treasury;
2and he saw a poor widow put in two copper coins.
3And he said, "Truly I tell you, this poor widow has put in more than all of them;
4for they all contributed out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty put in all the living that she had." (Luke 21:1-3)

Interesting that you stopped that last bit of scripture before the ending....

Luk 19:45 And he went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold therein, and them that bought;

Luk 19:46 Saying unto them, It is written, My house is the house of prayer: but ye have made it a den of thieves.

AND

I can understand why an anti tax tea party member/repug would have trouble with rending unto ceasar, what is ceasars.....ie....Jesus said to pay taxes.......but how, pray tell does that contradict what he said about riches? To the contrary......my friend Ray....

I can also understand how the teaching on the poor widow escapes your understanding since it conflicts with the rw talking point that repugs contribute MORE to charity than others......as he was saying it's not how much you contribute to help the poor, but how much of what you have ......and the idea of doing good, praying and giving anonymously would also conflict with a big show of charity, praying in public and schools, etc.....eh?

One other thing, if the people who owned that colt willingly allowed it to be taken in service of the Lord, was it stealing? (The passage doesn't say otherwise, does it?

See your "understanding", in your eagerness to discredit Jesus, is lacking Ray.

Merry Christmas

and dont forget

TH 12:26 As I walk through the valley of death I fear no one, for I am the meanest mother fucker in the valley!

#50 | Posted by truthhurts at 2009-12-26 09:43 AM | Reply | Flag:

TH thinks he is omnipotent.

You look silly and pathetic now. Very soon you will beg forgiveness

Maybe TH was a Vietnam veteran, as that saying was popular among war vets back in the day.....eh?

The one of the valleys they spoke of:

funny, isn't it?

Jackass started this thread hoping to create yet another Christian bash fest.

HAR~! HAR~!

Jackass, you continue to be God's tool

"Besides, Jesus was a building contractor in Nazareth, a suburb of Ceasarea -- the Roman provincial capital and a boom town at the time. He had plenty of work and plenty of people working for him."
#2 | Posted by vernon at 2009-12-25 08:20 AM

No, you dumbfuck, but I do READ the Bible and I do READ history books on the subject
#23 | Posted by vernon at 2009-12-26 12:44 AM

Vernon, Your grasp of history and geography leaves something to be desired.

Luk 19:45 And he went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold therein, and them that bought;
Luk 19:46 Saying unto them, It is written, My house is the house of prayer: but ye have made it a den of thieves.

The moneychangers were performing a valued function by exchanging Roman money, which was illegal under Roman law, to legal Jewish money which was needed to buy a sacrificial animal. It had nothing to do with Jesus's stolen colt.

One other thing, if the people who owned that colt willingly allowed it to be taken in service of the Lord, was it stealing? (The passage doesn't say otherwise, does it?

Nothing in scripture suggests they were given a choice. You're rationalizing, Woke. The collection that I linked to suggests Jesus was a man of exceptional means.

He could afford meat and a house.

14And as he passed by, he saw Levi the son of Alphaeus sitting at the receipt of custom, and said unto him, Follow me. And he arose and followed him.
15And it came to pass, that, as Jesus sat at meat in his house, many publicans and sinners sat also together with Jesus and his disciples: for there were many, and they followed him. (Mark 2:14-15 KJV)

He was a glutton and drunkard.

19the Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds."' (Matt: 11:18-19; Luke 7:34)

Your eagerness to make Jesus into what he wasn't discredits you, Woke.

TH 12:26.1 Speaking words of wisdom, Let it Be

This preacher is off base. I suspect he goes down that path so as to make his congregation comfortable with being well to do as long as it means feathering the church's (his) nest.

Money is not the root of all evil. The love of money is. There is a difference. It's not a sin to be blessed with means. What you do with those means... and how you achieve those means... those are important to the equation.

"He (Christ) was a glutton and a drunkard...."

And, unlike RAY, He could interpret Scripture.

Of course, Christ was interested in Scripture.

Nothing in scripture suggests they were given a choice. You're rationalizing, Woke. )
Your eagerness to make Jesus into what he wasn't discredits you, Woke.

#55 | POSTED BY RAY AT 2009-12-26 10:12 AM

You cannot show that the disciples STOLE that colt son...though you claim so.....Ray.

And the next passage you cite is in response to the Pharisees attempting to discredit him for not following the men's laws they set up, but could not follow themselves. In fact, it details their hypocrisy as they denigrated John, who came before Jesus for his austere lifestyle, fasting, etc.....and then denigrated Jesus by claiming he was a drunkard. He wasn't, they just claimed he was, just like you just did....by misrepresenting what the gospel says....
Again, you stopped short of showing the entire passage so make your point, eh?

Mat 11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Mat 11:16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,

Mat 11:17 And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.

Mat 11:18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.

Mat 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

Wisdom is surely justified of her children Ray. And your pathetic attempts to use the scriptures out of context and with no understanding to denigrate Jesus, shows that clearly.....you have little wisdom about these issues.

YOU are the one attempting to discredit Jesus. I am not attempting to do other than to explain away your BS, denigration of him.....but please, feel free to continue your smear of Jesus over the holiday that is used to celebrate his birth, if that is what makes you feel good about yourself.....

to each their own.....no worries for me...

He who has ears, eh?

If you don't like Jesus, Allah, Mohommed, Moses, or any other religious figure, why would you spend inordinate time denigrating them? Why not just ignore their teachings?

Methinks you doth protest too much....Wm Shakespeare

We can argue over this for the rest of our lives and not come to agreement.

"Not come to an agreement...."

It's not the argument, it's the bloody-mindedness. WOKE just did a good of a job rebuking you with Scripture as I've seen. That you don't give him credit proves my point.

I find this prosperity interpretation very odd and twisted. I've always thought the complete opposite.Go and read the 4 Gospels and come back and tell me the difference between what Christ said and democratic socialism!

Sure Jesus had money. Shoot, anyone that could turn water into wine and multiply loves and fishes was bound to be rich. Why didn't he just bribe Pontius Pilate?

It's not the argument, it's the bloody-mindedness. WOKE just did a good of a job rebuking you with Scripture as I've seen. That you don't give him credit proves my point.
#62 | Posted by Zed

Woke didn't do shit! Nothing can shake you and him from your fantasy worlds, so there is no point in trying.

Here's a case where Jesus told his disciples to intimidate people.
10But whenever you enter a town and they do not receive you, go into its streets and say,
11'Even the dust of your town that clings to our feet, we wipe off against you; nevertheless know this, that the kingdom of God has come near.'
12I tell you, it shall be more tolerable on that day for Sodom than for that town.
13"Woe to you, Chorazin!woe to you, Beth-saida! for if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
14But it shall be more tolerable in the judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you.
15And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You shall be brought down to Hades. (Luke 10:10-15)

He was a glutton and drunkard.

Jesus? Lol, right... even I think that's over the top. Eat some vitamins, buy some gold, and come back when your head is screwed on.

Sorry, RAY---Am familiar with that Scripture. That you get intimidation from it is idiosyncratic.

jesus' first miracle was to turn water into wine to keep the party going-just saying

Whatever you say, Zed. Whatever you say.

Here's another one where Jesus expressed his hostility towards non-givers.

40And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.'
41Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;
42for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' (Matt. 25:40-43)

I have plenty more like this.

Ray, my friend,

You can take Jesus teachings out of context to denigrate him all you want. The passage you quote is clear, as was most of the teachings attributed to Jesus. The teaching is that as you do, so it shall be done unto you. If you give nothing to others, then expect nothing in return. If you want forgiveness, forgive those who have harmed you. Many others have done the same as you. It doesn't make them or you right. It makes you seem like someone who has a vested interest in falsely denigrating the religious figures that others hold dear.

Again, no worries for those of us who value the teachings of Jesus.
Actually, the golden rule is taught in some form in most religions....

It's all good son.

Here is the entire teaching:

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:

Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink?

Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked, and clothed [thee]?

Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

ie....as you do, so shall it be done unto you....eh?

As you say, your anti-Christian website has many more denigrations of Jesus' teachings by twisting, spinning and you can post out of context bible verses to your heart's content....

Question is: Why would you do that? Do you think it makes you appear wise? Do you think it makes your case? Most of what you have attempted to post out of context, denigrating Jesus actually makes the case on this thread that money and worldly gain are NOT what Jesus preached as riches, but doing good to others.

In the words of Dethspud

Be well.

Question is: Why would you do that? Do you think it makes you appear wise? Do you think it makes your case?

I've quoted verbatim. I'm not on trial here.

As you say, your anti-Christian website has many more denigrations of Jesus' teachings by twisting, spinning and you can post out of context bible verses to your heart's content....

Nonsense! The biblical text speaks for itself.

Most of what you have attempted to post out of context, denigrating Jesus actually makes the case on this thread that money and worldly gain are NOT what Jesus preached as riches, but doing good to others.

The words speak for themselves. Jesus did not practice what he preached. Even in his teachings left a lot to be desired, always aimed in some way of surrendering to authority.

In the Parable of the Unjust Steward, Jesus made it clear he would accept stolen money.

An employee was going to be fired for stealing from his master. On his last days, to find new friends who could help him find employment, he settled many of their debts to his master at discount. When his master heard about it, he commended the employee for shrewdness.

The moral lesson is that it if you steal to make friends with Jesus, he will be pleased to accept you.

8The master commended the dishonest steward for his shrewdness; for the sons of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own generation than the sons of light.
9And I tell you, make friends for yourselves by means of unrighteous mammon, so that when it fails they may receive you into the eternal habitations. (Luke 16.8-9)

You look silly and pathetic now. Very soon you will beg forgiveness
#51 | Posted by vernon

......looks like Vern is rehearsing.......

.....landed the role of Darth Vader in the next Star Wars flick.....

1. I've quoted verbatim. I'm not on trial here.

2. Nonsense! The biblical text speaks for itself.

3. The words speak for themselves.

#71 | POSTED BY RAY AT 2009-12-26 01:17 PM

1. No, you haven't. You have seldom even included the exact scripture you post and are using it OUT OF CONTEXT to denigrate the teachings. And guess what, Jesus isn't on trial here either. But you are showing your lack of understanding and ability to think beyond what some website tells you to think.

2. Yes, the scripture speaks for itself, especially when fully vetted, but you don't present it fully, nor speak to what it means. To the contrary, I have proven each time that you posted it out of context and don't have a clue to it's understanding.

3. Words speak for themselves when posted in context with some understanding of the teachings. Again, you have done neither.

Again, with you next pathetic attempt you forget to include the actual teaching presented by Jesus, instead posting just part of the scripture and out of context....here is the end of that passage and the teaching therein....

Luk 16:10 He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much.

Luk 16:11 If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true [riches]?

Luk 16:12 And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own?

Luk 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Luk 16:14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.

Luk 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

And again, we see that Jesus preached the OPPOSITE of what the topic of this thread claims... The riches Jesus speaks of have nothing to do with money and posessions, but good works.......and again, we also see that you have again posted something out of context, with little to no understanding of the actual teaching in your attempt to denigrate Jesus.

Have a nice holiday.

Woke

Out of context? Excuses excuses. All that spinning you're doing is going to make you dizzy.

Here's some more of Jesus, thankfully forgotten teachings.

Do not labor for food that perishes. How is that possible? All food perishes.
27Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of man will give to you; for on him has God the Father set his seal." (John 6:27)

Loans are encouraged as long as you don't try to collect.
42Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you. (Matt. 5:42)

12And forgive us our debts, As we also have forgiven our debtors; (Matt. 6:12)

Your limited understanding is what is impeding you Ray. That and your pride in thinking YOU can take a couple passages out of an entire teaching to denounce it.

The "food" which does not perish is spiritual understanding. Like money, physical food is used and gone, but with spiritual understanding you might have a shot at eternal life. Are you beginning to see how limited your understanding of the teachings of Jesus are.....don't feel bad Ray, you are in good company....

Forgiving those who do bad to us is a difficult teaching, but the most radical teaching ever. Forgive others and you will be forgiven. Forgive not and you won't be forgiven. Similar to the golden rule. Do unto other as you would have them do unto you.

Don't condemn what you don't understand Ray.

You have repeatedly posted partial, incomplete and misrepresented teachings, relying on a limited understanding. I have repeatedly shown how lacking your, less than complete, out of context, misrepresentational examples are, yet you continue.

Happy Holidays

Matthew 13:1-58

"Like money, physical food is used and gone, but with spiritual understanding you might have a shot at eternal life."

he's my buddy & since everyone has a 'shot at eterrnal life' lifetime after lifetime ~ what's the big hurry?

Is Jesus worshiping showing signs of dying out again soon according to the annointed self righteous Christian here in retortland?

Don't condemn what you don't understand Ray.

Woke - You're in denial. I let the Bible condemn itself.

That and your pride in thinking YOU can take a couple passages out of an entire teaching to denounce it.

I can do do this for days. Instead of dealing with the verses I cited, you patronize me.

You have repeatedly posted partial, incomplete and misrepresented teachings, relying on a limited understanding. I have repeatedly shown how lacking your, less than complete, out of context, misrepresentational examples are, yet you continue.

I want to know how Christians divorce themselves from the vicious vindictive God in the Old Testament, when Jesus and Yahweh are supposed to be the same god. It was Jesus who flooded the world. It was Jesus who destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. According to the Trinity, they are one in the same.

For good measure, here are some of Jesus's fire and brimstone threats.

22"But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be liable to the hell of fire." (Matt. 5:22)

14And if any one will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet as you leave that house or town.
15Truly, I say to you, it shall be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town. (Matt. 10:14-15)

40Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age.
41The Son of man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers,
42and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth. (Matt. 13:40-42)

There is no way to explain this away. It is you, Woke, who is blind.

"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God"

Does anyone here know what this means?

#22 | Posted by happyending at 2009-12-26 12:44 AM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

In regard to this post, I will tell you what it means. There was a place in that area at the time that was an entry gate into the area/region/city. It was a narrow gate, kind of like they eye of a needle, a narrow half elipse. When camels were not loaded at all it was difficult to near impossible for them to enter. As camels are used for pack animals, and carrying once belongings, a packed camel could not enter the "eye of the needle" gate. In the same way a man that is depending on his money over and above God cannot get through the gates of heaven. Just as the camel cannot get through the gate, so too the rich man dependant on money will not get through the gate.

Also, Ray seems to think that "Christians" more aptly called followers of the way have a problem with Jesus being the same God as the old testament. I have no problem with that. Judgment that is forewarned judgment does not bother me any. People know the consequence, therefore they should expect it when they break the law. They still had sacrifices and forgiveness, even though sometimes punished physically for their physical and spiritual crime.

jesus had money he was like a rock star. There is nothing wrong with prosperity it is how you get it and what you do with it.

#18 | Posted by RightisTrite at 2009-12-25 10:24 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

Yeah right,

"but the son of man has no place to lay his head"

They were betting for his garments because of who he was and the shit that was stiring over the whole thing...

"its easier for a Camel to pass through the eye of a needle that a rich man to enter the knogdom of god"

Jesus said some pretty harsh things when it came to money....

I dont buy your bullshit about Jesus being the "playa playa from the himmilaya"

They were betting for his garments because of who he was and the shit that was stiring over the whole thing...

Right, that Shroud of Turin is worth a fortune, possibly.

It is also believed that the romans were the ones who placed a "royal" robe on Jesus in order to fully mock him for his "royalty" as the "King of the Jews". If he was given a purple robe, that would be worth some money once the blood was cleaned off of it in those days.

Purple was a high class color that not every person could get their hands on.

I thought you over smart people would realize that.

Jesus was of the poorest class.
His parents paid two turtle doves for the circumcision offering.

Liars always trying to distort the Bible.

Get your Bible (king James) and read for yourselves.

His parents paid two turtle doves for the circumcision offering.

What'd they pay for the bar mitvah? Three French hens?

There is no way to explain this away. It is you, Woke, who is blind.

#77 | POSTED BY RAY AT 2009-12-26 06:20 PM

You cannot explain it Ray. That does not mean it cannot be explained, but that you have limited understanding. Again, don't condemn what you don't understand Ray.

1Jo 2:7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.

1Jo 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.

1Jo 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.

1Jo 2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

1Jo 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

The word is LOVE, Ray.

Happy Holidays

The ole' boy called the Good Samaritan paid for the care and stay for the injured man in the parable, and that cost money.

The mob ain't gonna pay for it.

If someone trusts Jesus in their finances (and is willing to OBEY Him with their finances, giving to the poor, etc), they will see Him provide every time.

You cannot explain it Ray. That does not mean it cannot be explained, but that you have limited understanding. Again, don't condemn what you don't understand Ray.

Stop with the put-downs, Woke. It's a cop-out and it's getting you nowhere with me. I came into reading the Bible like I read every everything else; it read it for what it says, not what I want it to say. I was shocked that anyone could believe that nonsense in this day and age. I spent ten years on that Bible project. From every direction it comes out the same: it's all myth and legend. It's an imaginary world based on words and words alone in a vain effort to prove nothing is something.

That it's been believed for so long by so many is not a testament to its truth; it's a testament to deep human needs for authority and social conformity regardless of the facts of reality. I see the phenomenon, not only in religion, but in politics too, and even in some branches of science.

Stop with the put downs?

Hahaahaha, pretty funny coming from someone who is spending much time denigrating Jesus, whom the entire religion of Christianity is named for......

10 years reading the bible in order to put down that book and religion and you are telling me stop with the put downs? That's hilarious.

I'll just take that hypocrisy in stride, along with the rest of your half truth "put downs" and misrepresented and incomplete criticisms of the scriptures.

Jesus taught judge not, love your enemies and forgive and you will be forgiven. If you cannot accept that, so be it.

To each their own.

No worries for me. But again, methinks you doth protest too much.....see if you can figure out what that means to your need to put down the bible and Christians....

Mat 5:11
Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Woke - We beat this topic to death. I'm done with it. You're reacting to what I copied and pasted. If you don't mind being manipulated, that's your business.

I guess in the same way we have people who think the Constitution gives the government the power to reign supreme over its people, so too you'll find those who'll come up with all sorts of twisted interpretations of the Word.

Ray is quite a strange "atheist". He prolifically quotes scripture like one of the bible thumpers, and if you get him yapping about medical science you'll see that he has swallowed a bunch of pseudoscientific horseshit on faith. But yeah... atheist.

Joseph took it all and split. Notice not much said about him or the wealth given to baby Jesus...

He prolifically quotes scripture like one of the bible thumpers,

That is like calling me a Christian because I know the NT....I just felt it was important when talking to Christians for ONE of us to have read it.

The basic premise of the golden rule is that what you give, you get back. That premise exists in nearly all religions.

The law of karma, forgive to gain forgiveness, only love conquers hate, etc....

It also exists in science. For each action there is an equal reaction.

Do good, good comes back to you.

It may seem too simple for some "educated" minds who think they know it all. However, that is exactly why Jesus taught using parables.

Mat 18:1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?

All the best to you Ray.
Mat 18:2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,

Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 18:5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.

For them with "ears" to hear....

That is like calling me a Christian because I know the NT....I just felt it was important when talking to Christians for ONE of us to have read it.

I've never seen you toss scripture back and forth with them in a day-long argument, though.

Ray is quite a strange "atheist". He prolifically quotes scripture like one of the bible thumpers, and if you get him yapping about medical science you'll see that he has swallowed a bunch of pseudoscientific horseshit on faith. But yeah... atheist.
#90 | Posted by ZombieHunter

There's tons of scientific literature that supports the relationship between diet and disease, and he ignores it. Still thinks poisonous medicines are good for our health. THAT takes faith.

Yes I'm an atheist - in religion, in politics and in science. Not so, Zombie, who takes the Big Bang Theory on faith, who takes big government on faith, who takes his scientific specialty on faith as having no superior rivals. What a jerk!

"The basic premise of the golden rule is that what you give, you get back. That premise exists in nearly all religions."

Actually, the golden rule is a higher standard than what most religions request of their followers. It says to treat other people well regardless of how they treat you. There is no expectation of getting something back during your lifetime and following the golden rule does not grant you automatic access to heaven. For example - You could live your life selflessly helping others 24/7 and still end up in hell for not going to church on Sundays.

Personally, I think the gold rule is for suckers.

You could live your life selflessly helping others 24/7 and still end up in hell

Yep. Feeling that Christian "love" yet?

This overflowing load of horse manure known as the "prosperity Gospel" pops up more and more often these days as commercialism of all sorts of things becomes idolized.

Whether one subscribes to Christianity or not, the teaching is that the first becomes last and the last first, and that giving to get is as ass backwards as the idea of doing good works as a means to eternal reward. These are just not the teachings.

The teaching, from Abraham to Christ is the same, as Paul describes it, for faith a deposit of God's spirit (spirit; the animating force in your dictionary) is made in this tent of human flesh, the substance of hope of things to come.

That spirit often does change behaviour, not always, but it also changes motivation, which becomes selfless.

Prosperity often follows selfless, helpful behaviour, but not as reward.

And Jesus lived in the suburbs of a million person city, was not poor, and was scholarly. His family had money, including certain birth gifts, and his uncle, a Roman citizen and a magistrate in the tin trade between Britain and Rome, Joseph of Aramathea owned the very prosperous tomb Jesus was buried in (and which was heavily guarded, btw).

Paul's mother and brother in Rome housed that large church which included many prominent Romans named in Paul's writings, and also included the exiled King of Britain.

"Yep. Feeling that Christian "love" yet?"

Most of the people I love and who love me are Christians. I'm perfectly capable of disagreeing with some of their beliefs without being an asshole about it. This site is unique in my experience in that many people find it difficult to disagree with Christians without being idiots about it.

I think Jesus may have meant that money makes people self-sufficient and god-like.

We cater to the rich and treat them like gods.

"I read it for what it (Bible) says, not what I want it to say...."

RAY'S slanted intepretations of everything Biblical often reduce his commentary to the level of a joke.

I read the article.

I think it's more likely Jesus was neither rich nor poor.

His basic needs were surely met and he was probably not destitute.

He may have been well cared for by his friends.

I seriously doubt he was rich, though.

It's not consistant with His message.

RAY'S slanted intepretations of everything Biblical often reduce his commentary to the level of a joke.
#101 | Posted by Zed at 2009-12-27 04:32 PM | Reply | Flag: Believes in a joke.

Hey Zed, all I did above was copy and paste from the NT. It's upsetting to know that your god who preached love and forgiveness, was himself intolerant, vindictive, and rich. LOL!

"All I did was copy and paste...."

God hates prevarication, RAY. Don't take it from me. You're the expert on the NT.

Prevaricate on these.

31Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
32And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. (Matt. 12:31-32)

49"So it will be at the close of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous,
50and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth." (Matt. 13:49-50)

8And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better for you to enter life maimed or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.
9And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire. (Matt. 18:8-9, Mark 9:43-47)

Yes, Zed, your vicious, vindictive, pathological god said those things. And there's lot's more of them in the NT and the OT.

"Your vicious, vindictive, pathological...."

Now, now, RAY---Some of us comprehend a bit of personal projection when we see it.

I'm perfectly capable of disagreeing with some of their beliefs without being an asshole about.

That particular facet of Christian belief is distasteful enough to warrant being a dick about it.

If you believe that non-Christians are bound for eternal suffering, and you also believe that god is just, you must believe that non-Christians deserve an eternity of suffering for something as insignificant as their choice of imaginary friends.

Do all christians believe this? No. I posted a thread several months ago about a poll that showed a majority of Christians reject this belief. A minority, however, still clings to this pathetic notion of Christian supremacism.

Personally, I think the gold rule is for suckers.

#96 | Posted by Sully