Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs
Friday, December 18, 2009

Henry Liu, Business Insider: In recent decades, an intuitive myth has been pushed on the unsuspecting public by supply side economists that low taxes encourage corporations, employers and entrepreneurs to create high paying jobs. But the counter-intuitive historical truth is that a progressive income tax regime with over 90% for top bracket incomes actually encouraged management and employers to raise wages. The principle behind this truth is that it is easier to be generous with the government's money.

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Gee, exactly what I've been saying for years now.
Those who have been so conditioned to believe supply side myths will continue the same arguments in spite of plenty of statistical evidence to the contrary and then we wonder why the US has such economic problems. Even the Obama administration is infected with Trickle Down Disease, until they wake up and fire the supply siders we will continue to have unemployment, stagnant wages, high deficits. The same steps that will fix one of the above will also fix the other two.

Danni,

I understand the premise and don't argue with it but you have to accept that it is political suicide to introduce a tax system like that.

nobody is going to do that.

Even the Obama administration is infected with Trickle Down Disease,

your surprised? why? NOBODY will introduce something like that with the expectation of getting it passed.

Lower taxes drive wages down and progressive taxation results in higher wages all around the board?

Trickle Down truly is voo doo economics?

No shit.

Good eye, Darth.

Party on.

Be Well.

"I understand the premise and don't argue with it but you have to accept that it is political suicide to introduce a tax system like that.

nobody is going to do that."

Well, when things get bad enough someone is going to have to do what is right for the country. If I were Obama I would forget health care, forget cap & trade, etc. and go to the people and "teach" them that we need to undo Reaganomics and put our country back in order. If we don't it won't matter because we won't be able to afford health care, wars, cap & trade, etc. If Obama wants to be a great president then he better take a cue from Roosevelt(s).

If Obama wants to be a great president then he better take a cue from Roosevelt(s).

#4 | Posted by danni

Is this FDR-ish?

WASHINGTON President Barack Obama has signed into law a $1.1 trillion bill that increases the budgets in many areas of the government by about 10 percent, including health, law enforcement and veterans' programs.

"Is this FDR-ish?"

Nope. It's irresponsible spending without taxing to pay for it. His economic team is ruining his presidency.

Agreed.

If Obama wants to be a great president then he better take a cue from Roosevelt(s).

In other words, what this country needs is a twelve year depression and a world war.

ray...

good answer...right to the heart of the matter..

so lower taxes drives down wages..

so what about the notion that lower taxes create jobs.......a lot more people getting a check even if they are making less means more taxes brought in...right?

"so what about the notion that lower taxes create jobs......."

We are now experiencing the results of lower taxes and unemployment is sky high! That is sort of the point.

"a lot more people getting a check even if they are making less means more taxes brought in...right?"

Actually the exact opposite would be true. When wages are low enough you don't even pay income tax. When wages are high enough you fall into higher tax brackets.

Let's just scrap Medicare and Medicaid. That'll save $625 Billion for fiscal 2010.

"Let's just scrap Medicare and Medicaid. That'll save $625 Billion for fiscal 2010."

LETUSPREY is Glenn Beck...who knew????

Read up of Australia's method of digging out of the recession - you might find it enlightening.

Given the above, and based upon the wages we receive today relative to the rest of the world we are the third most taxed nation. But we know thats not true.

Our incomes, PPP normalized, are greater than those in more heavily taxed countries. In fact we rank third. While our GINI index is a little high, the PPP number points to a high average level of income relative to the rest of the world. The author spins good yarn, but doesn't give any real evidence to his proposal.

That being said, the system is not linear, it has an optimal. I beleive in the Laffer curve of taxation, optimizing revenues. It is basically a ROE curve used in ecology. Given the fact we have higher wages than countries that have higher taxes, it might be possible to claim there maybe a Laffer curve for wages. Do they align? They might not, that would be a more difficult problem to solve. The real problem as Laffer stated, you don't know where you are on the curve, you need to experiment.

"Supply-side Spin
June 11, 2007
Sen. John McCain has said President Bush's tax cuts have increased federal revenues. But revenues would have been even higher without them.
Summary
Republican presidential candidate Sen. John McCain has said that the major tax cuts passed in 2001 and 2003 have "increased revenues." He also said that tax cuts in general increase revenues. That's highly misleading.

In fact, the last half-dozen years have shown us that we can't have both lower taxes and fatter government coffers. The Congressional Budget Office, the Treasury Department, the Joint Committee on Taxation, the White House's Council of Economic Advisers and a former Bush administration economist all say that tax cuts lead to revenues that are lower than they otherwise would have been even if they spur some economic growth. And federal revenues actually declined at the beginning of this decade before rebounding. The growth in the past three years that McCain refers to brings revenues back in line with the 40-year historical average as a percentage of gross domestic product.

It's unclear how much of the growth can be attributed to the tax cuts. Capital gains tax receipts did increase greatly from 2003 to 2006, but the CBO estimates that they will level off and decrease in the next few years. The growth overwhelmingly resulted from a sharp rise in corporate tax receipts, the cause of which is a topic of debate."

www.factcheck.org

"The Joint Committee on Taxation estimated that the 2001 tax legislation (the Economic Growth and Tax Relief Reconciliation Act) would cause government revenues to be 107.7 billion less than they would have been in the absence of the legislation in 2004, 107.4 billion less in 2005 and 135.2 billion less in 2006. The committee's estimates for the effect of the Jobs and Growth Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2003 were that it would reduce otherwise projected revenues by 148.7 billion in 2004, 82.2 billion in 2005 and 20.7 billion in 2006. The JCT makes its comparisons against the Congressional Budget Office's receipts baselines."

www.factcheck.org

"LETUSPREY is Glenn Beck...who knew????

#13 | Posted by danni"

I...I...I think I'm starting to cry....

"I...I...I think I'm starting to cry...."

Naturally, or via Vicks?

"The real problem as Laffer stated, you don't know where you are on the curve, you need to experiment. "

True. And Bush's tax cuts -- at least the way they were targeted -- contributed to stagnating wages and lower tax revenues, despite what an Econ-101-challenged WSJ op-ed writer may tell you.

We are now experiencing the results of lower taxes and unemployment is sky high! That is sort of the point.
#10 | Posted by danni

Danni has a chronic habit seeing what she wants to see. Unemployment is high because of decades of cheap money, and the promotion of debt and consumption have created massive imbalances in the economy. Consumers can no longer carry more debt.

Today, there are approximately two tax consumers for one tax producers. It's sucking the life out of the private economy. Worse to come.

"Unemployment is high because of decades of cheap money, and the promotion of debt and consumption have created massive imbalances in the economy."

Oh, I see, outsourcing and illegal immigration have nothing to do with it.

"Consumers can no longer carry more debt."

And why were consumers going into so much debt????

Because wages remained stagnant or even moved backwards because of outsourcing and illegal immigration.

Flood labor market (or expand it to include every low wage country on Earth) and you increase unemployment and decrease wages.

Oh, I see, outsourcing and illegal immigration have nothing to do with it.

Of course not! It can only be one thing, and according to Ray it's "decades of cheap money".

(sarc)

"The principle behind this truth is that it is easier to be generous with the government's money."
WTF??!!
The government doesn't have any money until they confiscate it from us...

1) Lower tax rates do not mean less tax revenue.

The tax cuts of the 1920s
Tax rates were slashed dramatically during the 1920s, dropping from over 70 percent to less than 25 percent. What happened? Personal income tax revenues increased substantially during the 1920s, despite the reduction in rates. Revenues rose from $719 million in 1921 to $1164 million in 1928, an increase of more than 61 percent.

According to then-Treasury Secretary Andrew Mellon:

The history of taxation shows that taxes which are inherently excessive are not paid. The high rates inevitably put pressure upon the taxpayer to withdraw his capital from productive business and invest it in tax-exempt securities or to find other lawful methods of avoiding the realization of taxable income. The result is that the sources of taxation are drying up; wealth is failing to carry its share of the tax burden; and capital is being diverted into channels which yield neither revenue to the Government nor profit to the people.

The Kennedy tax cuts
President Hoover dramatically increased tax rates in the 1930s and President Roosevelt compounded the damage by pushing marginal tax rates to more than 90 percent. Recognizing that high tax rates were hindering the economy, President Kennedy proposed across-the-board tax rate reductions that reduced the top tax rate from more than 90 percent down to 70 percent. What happened? Tax revenues climbed from $94 billion in 1961 to $153 billion in 1968, an increase of 62 percent (33 percent after adjusting for inflation).

According to President John F. Kennedy:

Our true choice is not between tax reduction, on the one hand, and the avoidance of large Federal deficits on the other. It is increasingly clear that no matter what party is in power, so long as our national security needs keep rising, an economy hampered by restrictive tax rates will never produce enough revenues to balance our budget just as it will never produce enough jobs or enough profits In short, it is a paradoxical truth that tax rates are too high today and tax revenues are too low and the soundest way to raise the revenues in the long run is to cut the rates now.

"Lower tax rates do not mean less tax revenue."

Dubya's tax cuts for the wealthiest certainly did.

#22 | Posted by danni
"Unemployment is high because of decades of cheap money, and the promotion of debt and consumption have created massive imbalances in the economy."
Oh, I see, outsourcing and illegal immigration have nothing to do with it.

Illegals will work off the books for less than minimum wage. As consumers want more for less money, so do businesses. It's a natural tension.

And why were consumers going into so much debt????

Because it is government policy to encourage debt.

Because wages remained stagnant or even moved backwards because of outsourcing and illegal immigration.

Oh bullshit. Illegal immigration has been going on for decades, long before unemployment increased.

I am amazed how you people believe anything you read.

AMAZING

"And why were consumers going into so much debt????

Because it is government policy to encourage debt."

Oh, there was a government agency encouraging consumers to go into debt. That's news.
I'm sure it had nothing to do with the fact that they didn't have enough money from WAGES to pay for Christmas, etc. Government never made anyone go into debt, they went into debt trying to maintain a lifestyle not supported by the wages they earned.
You can blame government but that is eliminating folk's responsibility for their own decisions.

You can blame government but that is eliminating folk's responsibility for their own decisions.

#29 | Posted by danni

Live within your means.

Please reconcile your new-found sense of personal responsibility with this:

And why were consumers going into so much debt????

"Please reconcile your new-found sense of personal responsibility with this:"

New found??? Excuse me but I have always paid my bills. This thread has nothing to do with personal responsibility and debt, that was my point. It has to do with the effect tax rates have on wages.

Well, when things get bad enough someone is going to have to do what is right for the country.

We have already seen that the sell outs in Washington will only do what is best for them to remain in power. To do that they need $$$$ from donors.

Making the donors pay taxes will reduce the $$$$ they can give to Washington.

Nothing will change.

"Nothing will change."

Oh, something is going to change when the federal government goes bankrupt....our living standard.

From the article: "In the past, when top corporate income tax rate was at over 50% and personal income tax rate at over 90%, both management and employers had less incentive to maximize net income by cutting cost in the form of wages. Why give the government the money when it could be better spent keeping employees happy?.."

The above makes absolutely no sense.
Employers always seek to minimize taxable income (I do, and every other employer does!).

Regardless of tax rate --> INCREASING payroll expense will DECREASE taxable income.

DANNI #13 - You suggest examining Australia. I suggest examining New Zealand. Cutting taxes, dumping government handouts -- err I mean taxpayer funded "nothing" jobs -- errr I mean reducing wasteful spending... caused industry and entrepreneurship to flourish, and government revenues to INCREASE.

Ireland's corp tax rate is low. It draws business. Massachuusetts' tax rate sucks... it drives business and thus tax base away. Businesses are fleeing NY by the carload to escape rising taxes. Who, other than a mental patient, would not seek a more business-friendly environment?

Raising taxes beyond a tipping point ALWAYS reduces revenues because it sucks incentive for anyone to succeed.

JM

He is full of shit. Large labor pools and not many jobs drive wages down. Now guess what drives wages up.

"Regardless of tax rate --> INCREASING payroll expense will DECREASE taxable income."

As the tax rate increases the benefit to the employer to keep profit decreases because a larger and larger portion will go to the government. At some point the savings will be so slight that the employer will prefer to raise the wages he pays instead of just paying higher taxes.

"You suggest examining Australia."

No that was MSGT.

"Ireland's corp tax rate is low. It draws business."

Ireland's economy is in the toilet much like Iceland's due to supply side economics. It was booming but not any more.

"Raising taxes beyond a tipping point ALWAYS reduces revenues because it sucks incentive for anyone to succeed."

Granted but we are no where near that point right now. WE had a good economy under Clinton with tax rates approx. 5% higher than now so if tax cuts would create more jobs then where are they???

"He is full of shit. Large labor pools and not many jobs drive wages down. Now guess what drives wages up."

Investment into industry. Higher tax rates encourage direct investment so as to allow the taxpayer to avoid as much tax as possible.

Let's just scrap Medicare and Medicaid. That'll save $625 Billion for fiscal 2010."

LETUSPREY is Glenn Beck...who knew????

#13 | Posted by danni at 2009

you know young lady...when you write something like this that is actually somewhat humorous, I can imagine you at the keyboard with long blonde hair covering your eyes and making a face like a happy witch.........(respectfully though).......

in my post yesterday I was just asking about the idea that if more people got checks even though it was less...which is better?

more people making less
less people making more.

its just a hypothetical throwdown so dont get your partisan panties in a wad....

"Higher tax rates encourage direct investment so as to allow the taxpayer to avoid as much tax as possible."

You're kidding right? I'm not sure I've every heard anything so ridiculous, even here on the Retort. Absolute idiocy. Statements like this prove that liberal should never be responsible for money. One cannot invest, directly or indirectly what they don't have. By this logic, tax everyone 100% and they'll invest everything they have. But they don't have anything with which to invest! Libs seem to think that rich people, given a tax break, hide the money in a mattress or bury it in their back yards. No, the money, at worse, stays in a simple bank account. What happens to that money then? Give that money to the government instead, now what happens? Wow, such idiocy and ignorance never ceases to amaze.

MORE DEM ECONOMIC crap

fannie and freddie both 'DEMANDING" 400 billion EACH in the next TWO WEEKS.........

FOLLOW THE MONEY...will it end up at barney franks door??????

SPOKANE #39
Beat me to the punch:)

JM

SPOKANE --

Danni, in another thread last week, noted that she closed her once successful business, in part because of high cost of health insurance.

The topic went dead before she could respond to my question of how then, ADDING additional tax burden to businesses (or individuals) could possibly make for a BETTER fiscal operating environment.

Perhaps she could pick that one now on this thread...???

JM

"MORE DEM ECONOMIC crap"

Yeah the 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's never really happened. Tell us Einstein, how did we have so much growth and prosperity with such high tax rates???

Why did the prosperity and growth end when we cut taxes???

Why did we have such a good economy under Clinton with higher tax rates???

Why did the economy completely tank at the end of the Bush years considering his huge tax cuts???

Why did we have such a good economy under Clinton with higher tax rates???

easy
same reason welfare was basically fixed...at least its not a burning issue now

it was called a republican congress...clinton didnt do shit from 1992 until 1994 and in fact, he was in real political trouble before the republicans took over and changed everything....
'
'

AND THE 60's...TAX CUTS by jfk....did they effect anything?
also do you remember anything at all about the economy then...
DOTCOM explosion just for one example....

Why did the economy completely tank at the end of the Bush years considering his huge tax cuts???

#43 | Posted by danni

It tanked because of the failure of people being able to repay loans they should have never got in the first place. When you can buy a house with very little down and pay interest only, what do you expect? It was no different than the dot com bubble that burst when your beloved clinton was in office.

and the 40's uh...maybe WORLD WAR TWO may have had something to do with that?>

just asking

oh yeah the 50's...lets see from 1952 to 1960...what party was in the white house..oh yeah...the gop

and the 70's

HEY any decade that allowed for people like me to wear bell bottoms with SKY HIGH BOOTS and whose idea of formal was a NEHRU JACKET..
well.....what do you expect..LOL

and oh yeah

WE ALL DANCED TO DISCO..

come on....hee hee

Why did the economy completely tank at the end of the Bush years considering his huge tax cuts???

#43 | Posted by danni

It tanked because of the failure of people being able to repay loans they should have never got in the first place. When you can buy a house with very little down and pay interest only, what do you expect? It was no different than the dot com bubble that burst when your beloved clinton was in office.

#45 | Posted by Sniper

hahaha, yes those evil homebuyers buying homes with out assets at next to no risk to them put the whole economy at risk. the bankers and lenders doing the lending have no culpability.

also do you remember anything at all about the economy then...
DOTCOM explosion just for one example....

#44 | Posted by afkabl2

OOPS>.sorry....forgot to say 90's for dotcom instead of the word then which will make you think I believe dotcom was in the 60's

sorry bout that

what party was in the white house..oh yeah...the gop
#46 | Posted by afkabl2

Any idea who controlled Congress most of that time, Aflakabibblebabble?

This shit is so freaking simple to understand for even a moderately intelligent 4th grader....

I have a lemonade stand...
Cost of production: 25 cents/cup
Selling price: 50 cents/cup
Pre-tax profit: 25 cents/cup
Sales of 100 cups/day: 25 dollar profit.

*Tax rate 10%: Net profit $22.50
I have incentive to stay on business. Maybe expand.

*Tax rate jumps to 70%: Net profit $7.50
I have NO incentive to stay in business. Close doors.

JM

"before the republicans took over and changed everything...."

What an idiot. Clinton pushed through income tax increases which enabled him to balance the budget.
Bush came in and cut taxes and then began running deficits, larger every year.

"It tanked because of the failure of people being able to repay loans they should have never got in the first place."

Simplistic explanation, inreality extremely low interest rates provided by Greenspan fueled a housing bubble that finally burst. Without that housing bubble we would have been in recession since 2001. There was no wage growth nor even any real wealth created during the entire Bush administration.

This shit is so freaking simple to understand for even a moderately intelligent 4th grader....

I have a lemonade stand...
Cost of production: 25 cents/cup
Selling price: 50 cents/cup
Pre-tax profit: 25 cents/cup
Sales of 100 cups/day: 25 dollar profit.

*Tax rate 10%: Net profit $22.50
I have incentive to stay on business. Maybe expand.

*Tax rate jumps to 70%: Net profit $7.50
I have NO incentive to stay in business. Close doors.

JM

#52 | Posted by dockj

you forgot some stuff.
deduction for cup purchase $4.00
Deduction for sign purchase $2.00
Deduction for Pen to write sign $1.50
Advertising Deduction $10.00
Deduction for health insurance $2.50
New business tax credit $10.00

Total $30.00

Business shows a loss and pays 0 Taxes

There FTFY.

"This shit is so freaking simple to understand for even a moderately intelligent 4th grader...."

That really is the problem. YOu can't think beyond the simplistic way a fourth grader thinks. Did you even read the article??? Somehow, I don't really think I'll believe you if you say you did.

Any idea who controlled Congress most of that time, Aflakabibblebabble?

#51 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at

SO YOU AGREE that things got done THEN because of dems in congress, then you HAVE TO AGree that it was the same thing with clinton..

ah great common ground...thanks buddy boy.....

its FINE with me to have a dem president and a rupblican congress..........or vice versa....well okay...NOT SO MUCH>...lol

What an idiot.
#53 | Posted by danni at 2009

fuck you...

so much for the faux civility that libs keep PUKING about but when its time to return it we get this fuck...

bite me...

and out

ONE LAST THING

notice that doc said when gop was in white house and dems ran congress that there was success...its typical that liberal fucks refuse to see the opposite may also be true.

what a waste of my fuckin time....

" then you HAVE TO AGree that it was the same thing with clinton.."

Yeah, like when they shut down the government.

Oh, and that important $70,000,000 investigation that discovered a blow job and which was then reason for men who were committing the exact same sin at the exact same time to impeach the preisident. Oh yeah, when we want things done we want a Republican majority....well when we want to be screwed that is.

Ahat party was in the white house..oh yeah...the gop
#46 | Posted by afkabl2

Any idea who controlled Congress most of that time, Aflakabibblebabble?
#51 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis

notice that doc said when gop was in white house and dems ran congress that there was success...
#58 | Posted by afkabl2

I never said that, Aflak.

its typical that liberal fucks refuse to see the opposite may also be true.
#58 | Posted by afkabl2

LOL!

what a waste of my fuckin time....
#58 | Posted by afkabl2

DUH!

notice that doc said when gop was in white house and dems ran congress that there was success...
#58 | Posted by afkabl2

I never said that, Aflak.

if one party over congress does some good shit with the other party in the white house, then it follows that the opposite would be true..meaning opposite parties.......
that was my point..the waste of time point was wasting time trying to have a civil debate with just another liberal fuck as danni proves this morning to be..
too bad.......

but as I said...the weather is much too nice to be locked up with "you people'.........

#62 | Posted by afkabl2

Aflakabibblebabbleese to English ranslation: "Oops, caught out and made the fool yet again. Gotta skeedaddle!"

"if one party over congress does some good shit with the other party in the white house, then it follows that the opposite would be true..meaning opposite parties......."

No it doesn't. The Republican Party is not interested in doing anything to help average Americans, to rebuild infrastructure or help pay down the debt. The Republicans showed us all what they were about when they passed Medicare Part D, with the provision against any negotiating for better prices. They showed us what they were about when they passed Bush's tax cuts for the rich which resulted in huge deficits. Understand, they knew it would create huge deficits when they passed it, it was their strategy and they talked openly about it.
How can you support people like that???

Excuse me but I have always paid my bills.

#31 | Posted by danni

But....... you don't expect the government to do the same. WTF over.

"But....... you don't expect the government to do the same. WTF over."

Er...you seem confused. I favor higher taxes on the wealthy so that the government can pay its bills.
Tax cuts by socalled conservatives created deficits and debt.
Got it????

Er...you seem confused. I favor higher taxes on the wealthy so that the government can pay its bills.

you are the one who is confused by believing that the govt will/would take the extra revenue from increased taxes on the wealthy to actually pay its bills.

All I see the govt going is creating new places to spend rather than pay bills.

If they can convince me that they would take that extra revenue to pay bills and debt down then I'm on board with the idea.

Naturally the libs here will argue that it's nothing but a partisan site, but the information is very well documented and sourced. Read it for yourself.

Bush Tax Cuts:

www.heritage.org

SPOKANEJIM one little detail you propaganda from Heritage that you didn't seem to notice: January 29, 2007...when it was written. Things have since changed dramatically as many economists, as well as many here, including me predicted that they would.

Fact is Dubya doubled the debt. How you want to spin the tax cuts is up to you but most folks are finally willing to face the truth....the tax cuts contributed approx. 2.5 Trillion to the debt.

The guy's a communist. I'm sure Stalin could write an article to support this too if he were alive today.

THE SOCIALIST REVOLUTION STARTED 90 YEARS AGO IN CHINA
Part I: The Beginning
Part II: Lessons of Other Revolutions
Part III: Lessons of the Soviet Experience
Part IV: The Situation in China
Part V: Economic Surplus and Capital Formation

henryckliu.com

Tax cuts may initially increase short term revenue as assets are cashed in due to tax savings. After the initial redemption period, revenues fall waiting for the next tax cut boost. Recently there was talk of reducing the tax rate for overseas profits, which are not taxed until they are brought into the US. A reduction would of course produce an influx of funds initially but then stop.
The current system has swung to far towards the needs of business and to far from the needs of people. There needs to be a balance.
Trickle down theory economics simply transferred wealth from workers to business. The fact is self evident looking at census data. Based on 2000 data 60% of families, not individuals, make less than 60K a year and that was before the recession.

"The guy's a communist. I'm sure Stalin could write an article to support this too if he were alive today."

If he is then so too were FDR, Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Nixon, Ford, Carter. To some folks everything is either black or white but to more discerning folks it is usually a shade of gray.

To some folks everything is either black or white but to more discerning folks it is usually a shade of gray.

Posted by danni at 2009-12-18 01:25 PM

Coming from Danni, this gets a FF!

Here is an idea. Let's just let Nancy, Harry and O have our entire paycheck and let them decide how much they think we need.

On second thought, fuck that!!!

"The vast majority of the evidence towards Henry Liu's writings are his own articles and emails. He was quoted once in an article in the Wall Street Journal, but aside from that, there's no evidence of his existence aside from his own writings.

There is no record anywhere of the Liu Investment Group. This does not mean it doesn't exist; However, I'd be willing to bet it's simply him. He can call himself an "investment group" and just be one guy working out of his basement, just like you could quit your job tomorrow and proclaim yourself President of [My name here CRwM] tronics.

I did find some personal information on one of his emails:

Henry C.K. Liu, Chairman, Liu Investment Group
[Number removed CRwM] East 62nd Street, New York, N.Y. 10021 [address removed CRwM]@mindspring.com

It's worth noting 1) that he has a mindspring email address, not a corporate domain, reinforcing the idea that he doesn't work for a big company, and 2) The "Investment Group" is located in a townhouse on the upper east; again, it could be a real business, but if it is, it's very small.

It's worth noting that Liu claims in his bio to have been a professor at Columbia, Harvard and UCLA. I find zero evidence of this. If he was faculty there at any time, you'd expect some to exist.

In conclusion: I suspect Henry C K Liu is padding his resume, but not completely full of shit. It seems like he's an educated guy, and probably worked for a while at one of the big investment houses. But now he works for himself, doing some small-time investment work, and freelances articles for the Asia Times. He probably was a TA or gave a lecture once at those schools, he was never faculty.

www.hulver.com

Relocated in 2007.

Liu Investment Group, Inc Business This Profile
Liu Investment Group, Inc is a private company categorized under Real Estate Investment Trusts and located in West Covina, CA. Our records show it was established in 2007 and incorporated in California. Current estimates show this company has an annual revenue of $150,000 and employs a staff of approximately 2.

Your economic genus makes less money than I do.

same reason welfare was basically fixed...at least its not a burning issue now

#44 | Posted by afkabl2

The fix was temporary. We have it back in the form of tax credits.

I read that Heritage Foundation link and I can only say, nothing has changed with their style of writing or their bias. The biggest problem I can see with their reasoning is that none of the writers (and you can be sure there were many) ever actually studied the history books beyond what they were required to read in college (assuming they actually went to college).

Case in point...consider the following two quotes:

Danni said, "If Obama wants to be a great president then he better take a cue from Roosevelt(s)."

Ray's reply was, "In other words, what this country needs is a twelve year depression and a world war."

The fact is, that's pretty much the strategy Bush took in 2003. The war in Iraq was a knee jerk reaction to the cliff that wall street fell off after 911.

Ray insinuates that Roosevelt's plan was an economic plan. It was not. It was a war of necessity in a time when there was serious threats to the freedom of the West and the East.

Like all wars it resulted in the Law of Unintended Consequences changing the the US and the world's economy, not political policy. In the US alone, it contributed 16, million minimum wage jobs just in soldiers alone and uncounted many millions more jobs in the civilian ranks.

The resulting increase in jobs (and consequently tax revenue) allowed a record debt in 1945 to become a surplus by 1948. Just three years time. Unfortunately America paid a huge price: 416,800 young men lost their lives and a couple of million were disabled.

Bush's war in Iraq, in contrast, did not significantly add to the job market in the US, added a huge deficit worse then WWII and did little to add jobs to the private sector as the job market in America was failing anyway. His death toll: 4,686 and disabled for life, at least 150,000.

The fact is Bush was simply an under achiever (nothing new about that) but his war effort offered no return at all, not even increased security. Worse yet, the economy was left in shambles.

The moral of the story? There is none. All you armchair geniuses over look the fact that had Bush not gone to war in Iraq, there would be more then enough money to fund universal health care, and enough left over to refurbish our factories and power plants to easily meet carbon standards now being dictated by all the governments of planet Earth, not Obama.

Furthermore, had Bush's tax cuts on the wealthy been overturned, business would be scrambling to find ways to invest the money in their business instead of off shore bank accounts and increased executive pay.

Anybody who has any commonsense at all in economic theory will tell you today that the trickle down theory Bush and Cheney shoved down our collective throats was an absolute failure.

Screw the Heritage Foundation and their twisted right wing propaganda. That organization is no think tank for conservative values, it's a propaganda machine for big business to fool gullible uneducated right wing lemmings.

***"The Republican Party is not interested in doing anything to help average Americans...
The Republicans showed us all what they were about when they passed Medicare Part D, with the provision against any negotiating for better prices."***DANNI

That is just classic considering what just happened in the Senate concerning lower cost drugs.

Boy Henry has an extensive portfolio...

www.4realestatehomes.com

Liu is openly unsympathetic to Western liberal criticism of China that he considers as cultural imperialism in disguise. In February 2006, in a series of articles in Asia Times On Line, Liu proposes the establishement of an international cartel for labor to be known as Organization of Labor-Intensive Exporting Countries (OLEC) to restore balance of market power between capital and labor in the globalized economy. Henry Liu's father is Liu Yan Tak (廖恩德), an accomplished physician in Hong Kong and also a relative and close friend of Liao Chengzhi (廖承志), one of the Chinese Communist Party revolutionary leaders.

www.bookrags.com

The fix was temporary. We have it back in the form of tax credits.

...and here comes aflakabibble again.

Now tax credits are welfare and this blowhard has been preaching lower taxes for years. You don't really know what you want, do you babbler?

"Fact is Dubya doubled the debt."

Careful what you post. Me and most other conservatives here have railed upon Bush and his spending. But you silly libs use it to justify even more spending. Justifying bad behavior with other bad behavior. Bush doubled, but what has Obama done. And his two most expensive plans aren't even passed yet. Sucks to be you

"Careful what you post. Me and most other conservatives here have railed upon Bush and his spending. But you silly libs use it to justify even more spending."

This is a thread about taxes and their relationship to wages. Taxes are what pay down debts so if you and other conservatives were really concerned about the debt we hear you complain about so much then why would you oppose higher taxes on the wealthy.
Repeal the Bush tax cuts NOW!
Repeal the Reagan tax cuts NOW!
Get the revenue flowing again and you'd see the economy turn around as the debt shrank at the same time. Might piss off some of the folks who have made billions these past thirty years though.

Repeal the Bush tax cuts NOW!
Repeal the Reagan tax cuts NOW!

Increase the size of the Federal Govt NOW!

doesn't have the same ring does it?

it's the same thing though.

"In February 2006, in a series of articles in Asia Times On Line, Liu proposes the establishement of an international cartel for labor to be known as Organization of Labor-Intensive Exporting Countries (OLEC) to restore balance of market power between capital and labor in the globalized economy."

And you equate that with Communism???
Capitalists can join together in all sorts of associations and cartels but OMG!!! if labor uses the same tactic to regain some power then it is called Communism.
This guy really worries STIRSUMUP for the very reason Liu mentions, the WSJ types don't want you to know about the real effect taxes have on wages because if you did it would destroy the myth of supply side economics also known as feudalism.

"it's the same thing though."

No it isn't. We could put mandatory rules on how the money is to be used; paying down debt that has been run up. Clinton raised taxes and did balance the budget so it is wrong to say it can't be done.

No it isn't.

yes it is.

We could put mandatory rules on how the money is to be used; paying down debt that has been run up.

we could do that anyway on the trillions we already send to DC.

you don't care about paying down debt anyway. you post your insistance on raising taxes on the wealthy over and over and only when someone like me points out the reality of that not doing any good without curbing spending then you post a rebuttal like that. ONLY when someone point that out. which means you don't accept that part of it. you are only interested in taxing the rich more. I don't care about the wealthy being taxed more but what i do care about is giving more money to drunken teenagers (congress) who can manage to control their spending habits. I don't advocate pouring more gas on that fire until those assholes start behaving accordingly.

It's funny, the people who scream power to the people the loudest are the first ones to hand it to the government. But if an individual want to run his own life and keep some of what he earns he's the greedy one.

The article is pure B/S. Bottom line is government is too big and should be reduced. Government should not be allowed to expand faster than the annual GDP. Thus, higher taxes will result in a larger imperial federal government. When government is the largest employer we have a major problem that the dems just can't understand.

"The article is pure B/S. Bottom line is government is too big and should be reduced."

Raising taxes and paying down debt is hardly the same thing as increasing the size of government.

"you don't care about paying down debt anyway. you post your insistance on raising taxes on the wealthy over and over and only when someone like me points out the reality of that not doing any good without curbing spending then you post a rebuttal like that."

Eberly you really are full of crap, I have been complaining about the size of the deficits probably longer than any other poster on DR. I have posted many times about the amount we pay just for the interest on the debt.

"I don't care about the wealthy being taxed more but what i do care about is giving more money to drunken teenagers (congress) who can manage to control their spending habits."

As I mentioned above, that is a false argument since Clinton DEMONSTRATED that Democrats can operate on a PayGo basis....REMEMBER HERE....we weren't the ones who created this debt...the Republicans were and remember TOO....they told us they were going to do it when they came up with their STARVE THE BEAST strategy back in Reagan's era. This is a crisis of REPUBLICAN MAKING and all the spin in the world will not change that. Had the REpublicans just left things the way Bill Clinton left them when he exited the WH we would be well on our way to being debt free right now.

Oh.....this is Henry Liu's Op/Ed.

I thought it was Lucy Liu's putting in her 2 cents worth comment.

I was going to ask her out for a date.....Never mind.

Coupla things...first of all, increased taxes are not what causes wages to increase. The government prohibiting the retention of earned wealth above a certain marginal rate is what does it. Like the article says, when a firm has the option of giving money to the government or to the low wage employees (those not affected by high marginal tax rates), few, if any would choose to give it to the government. Second, this story is very one-sided, completely ignoring the effects of high taxes on the most productive employees, those in the tax bracket that would see 90% of their income over a certain level being taken from them.

Of course given that set of circumstances, what the smart employer would do is offer non-cash incentives to the most highly productive employees. In fact health care was originally offered by employees becuase government had imposed a wage cap back in the 1950s.

It also ignores the glaringly obvious point that even if increased taxes do correltate to higher gross incomes (something I seriously doubt in the first place), it certainly results in a decrease in net incomes for many, many people.

The US has the ability to manufacture and produce anything and everything our population needs. We need to start doing that again and use our superior technical, medical and agricultural knowledge to get this economy going in the right direction and get jobs created for Americans.

We need to sell our superior goods all over the world and take an isolationist attitude towards other economies exporting their goods into this country.

We need to ban unions, foreign investment, lobbying and outsourcing of labor into other countries.

" Second, this story is very one-sided, completely ignoring the effects of high taxes on the most productive employees, those in the tax bracket that would see 90% of their income over a certain level being taken from them."

Yeah, there are lots of employees making enough money to fall into the imaginary 90% tax bracket you speak of. That was the highest tax bracket before Kennedy lowered the tax rates and even then you would have had to make (in today's dollars) 3.5 million to fall into it. Even then, only the portion over the 3.5 million would be subject to it. NO one is even suggesting anywhere near that level of taxation.

"It also ignores the glaringly obvious point that even if increased taxes do correltate to higher gross incomes (something I seriously doubt in the first place), it certainly results in a decrease in net incomes for many, many people."

It could result in a somewhat lower income for very high income earners who are pretty few but it would also make it very likely that millions of lower wage people would make more and which group really would stimulate the economy more. Those who don't need to spend all of their incomes or those who do???

Yakity yakity Yak!!!

We ain't gonna buy our way out of this without the rich man's money. Cough it up you old farts.

Too funny = I guess next you will tell us we can tax ourselves to prosperity - LOL

"I guess next you will tell us we can tax ourselves to prosperity - LOL"

Exactly as we did post world war II. We owed an even larger percentage of GDP then yet we still managed to pay it down while enjoying virtually full employment and rising wages. This country can be prosperous again but not with the bankers and corporate CEOs calling the shots.
I find I have little patience these days for middle class folks defending the "greed is good" philsophy of Reaganomics. It is as if they still pretend their philosophy hasn't been allowed to play out completely enough and if only we would be a little more patient that prosperity will finally begin to trickle down. It hasn't and it won't and life does not have to be so hard for the American worker. We need to go back to the system that worked for us. Watched a show about our crumbling infrastructure the other day, if we don't get busy and fix that this country will soon resemble Mexico in many parts. That is where Reaganomics has led us.

We ain't gonna buy our way out of this without the rich man's money. Cough it up you old farts.
#97 | POSTED BY RINGMASTER

I find I have little patience these days for middle class folks defending the "greed is good" philsophy of Reaganomics.
#99 | POSTED BY DANNI

Ringo and Danni think income earned honestly is greed. But the income confiscated from honest earnings is not greedy. Steal from the wealthy! That's where the money is!
"From each according to their means to each according to their needs." -Karl Marx

The minds of crooks work in perverse ways.

Steal from the wealthy!

Gotta admit it would be nice fer a change.

Considering the wealthy have been stealing from the rest of us fer generations now.

Gotta luff accusation of class war from folk who won't admit that either A) it's been going on fer a while now and B) it's been a most lopsided affair to date.

Be Well.

Gotta admit it would be nice fer a change.
Considering the wealthy have been stealing from the rest of us fer generations now.
#102 | POSTED BY DETHSPUD

I distinguished between honest wealth and dishonest wealth. To lump them together reflects a widespread absence of morality that is destroying this nation. The irony is that dishonest wealth comes from legalized stealing. Spud imagines that legalized theft of honest wealth will satisfy his envious hatred of all wealth.

Nope. It's irresponsible spending without taxing to pay for it. His economic team is ruining his presidency.

#6 | Posted by danni

That's because he has Larry Summers running the team.

We ain't gonna buy our way out of this without the rich man's money. Cough it up you old farts.

#97 | Posted by RingMaster

It's a possibility that with the ultimate "health bill" youngsters like ringo are going to be taxed for not having healthcare--cough it up you naive young fart.

That is where Reaganomics has led us.

#99 | Posted by danni

Sometime, Danni, you give some provocative insight and other times simplistic sound bites-- Reaganomics is one symptom and not the sole symptom of the disease that is upon us-- the major issue from which we should start to reform our system is how we create unlimited money not tied to any standard (federal reserve reform or the death of that agency)---we wouldn't have to be concerned with Reaganomics or other symptoms if we got rid of the basic disease.

"Steal from the wealthy! That's where the money is!"

What do you care Ray, according to you it will all be worthless anyway so when we tax rich folks they are paying the government worthless paper...humm.....unless......w
e make taxes payable only in gold!!!!

"the major issue from which we should start to reform our system is how we create unlimited money not tied to any standard (federal reserve reform or the death of that agency)---"

Which is Reaganomics....if you don't raise taxes to pay all of government's costs then how are they paid???? By pringing more money. When you have enough tax revenue the money circulates and you don't have to keep printing more. Hence, Reagan left 3 trillion behind in debt for the first time in history and turned America from being a credicto to being a debtor. Our only hope of salvaging our economy is to tax away our debts and rebuild our infrastructure while we still can.

Reaganomics was supply side economics---My point was that reaganomics is allowed to happen because of the feeling that with the rising deficits it (could) create, you would ultimately be able to print more money to cover the deficits and therefore cover your problem. With a stable creation of money backed by legal tender it would be very difficult to allow reaganomics and/or the banking industry to do what they did to this country--also your representatives in congress would have to finally look out for the common welfare and the lobbying industry and earmarks would be compromised. Nothing is going to improve in this country until we get back to a currency backed system of one kind or another--if we don't the rest of the world will in one way or another attempt to force us to.

Going off the gold standard in 1971 was the final nail in the coffin and what allowed Reaganomics and other such chicanery to occur---it all goes back to printing money without a backstop standard--without it you allow immoral man the opportunity to practice his mischief.

What do you care Ray, according to you it will all be worthless anyway so when we tax rich folks they are paying the government worthless paper...humm.....unless......w
e make taxes payable only in gold!!!!
#106 | POSTED BY DANNI

What a dumb response!

What do you care Ray, according to you it will all be worthless anyway so when we tax rich folks they are paying the government worthless paper...humm.....unless......w
e make taxes payable only in gold!!!!

#106 | Posted by danni

Ray probably figures that as our currency becomes worthless his gold will take on "currency status" in place of it and will appreciate in value as the dollar depreciates and inflation occurs--he will probably not have to pay taxes on the increasing value of his gold since it usually is an underground enterprise and not readily seen or controlled by this government.

Which is Reaganomics....

#107 | Posted by danni

Danni, I encourage you and others to read our constitution and also study the federal reserve system and the damage it and the banking system have done to this country---we can only return this country back to the citizenry if we reform or get rid of the federal reserve system--the whole cesspool we're in evolves out of the federal reserve which lies at the bottom of the Ponzi Scheme we have lived the last 40-50 years

The WORST is now the BEST!!!

CorpoRat America should change its mantra to "Bad is Really Good and the more we SCREW & SODOMIZE YOU the Better & More Prosperous it is for YOU & for AMERICA!!!"

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