"Consider that the number of medical students choosing primary care as a profession has already dropped by 51.8% since 1997, and that currently only 2% of medical school graduates choose primary care as a career"

umm . . .
meet the new boss - -
the Marxist State is above ALL ELSE - -

"chosing your own career path" won't be an option

Yes.

We understand.

The sky is falling and we're all going to die.

I'm horrified.

As long as we keep exporting our jobs to India, I'm sure they'll keep send us their doctors.

But I am just a little concerned about those 20,000 Chinese doctors Jeff Gannon's idiot girlfriend ordered before he left office.

What he really means is that the nurse practitioners are cutting into their share of profit because they do it cheaper. To me, at least, it makes more sense to see a nurse practitioner for a cold or a pimple on my ass and to see an actual doctor for something more complex like diabetes or heart problems. Isn't the whole point to be able to do it cheaper and for more people than for doctors to be whining about their fat paychecks? It's really all about greed. Lots of professions in public service require long years of school and big student loans--teachers, social workers, lawyers such as public defenders, etc. They make the choice to go into those professions knowing they are not going to be rich. What happened to people wanting to be doctors to help people, not just to drive a Mercedes?

#4 | Posted by missesmerelda at 2009-12-06 08:33 PM | Reply | Flag: GOT PIMPLES ON BUTT DRIVING BMW

That's real Christian of you, Chump.

I'm good friends with several doctors. I met one recently who graduated medical school with $185,000 in college debt. He drives a 9-year-old VW.

If Obamacare wants to drive his income down in the name of cost control, or wants to raise taxes on his income, then there will be fewer doctors. And less tax dollars. And fewer people attending medical school, keeping professors in their jobs.

Still, Obama knows best! Along with 40% of the rest of the country who wants this nonsense.

Right is wrong

You don't have a clue, it's not about taxes, it's about insurance companies raking in profits by denying care and payment for services rendered.

I managed medical offices for over 15 years and spent most of my time fighting for money legally owed to doctors by insurance companies.

Health care is not a party issue, it's about a system that has been perverted by big business.

#8 - I respectfully disagree with you regarding insurance companies raking in profits:

"Health care is not a party issue, it's about a system that has been perverted by big business."

Agreed!!!

nanc,

Let me explain this to you...

premiums continue to rise

reimbursement continues to fall

where exactly is all that money going?

UNDERSTAND?

I could have sold out and gone to work for insurance companies making much more money but I have morals, ethics, and could not deny payment for services rendered and legally owed to doctors and hospitals.

You do NOT understand the system and how it is broken.

" I have morals, ethics,"

What are you doing on Drudge??: D
LOL

#11 - I only know from my own experiences. I don't write the statistics on profits. I know a $4,000 er visit costs only $1,500 if you're paying cash and leave the insurance and/or medicare out of the equation. The system is broken because people are addicted to going to the doctor in many cases - there are people who go every time they get a paper cut or a sniffle who have insurance - we know them. We also know their doctors are prescribing antibiotics for their viruses and we all know this is a ruse. You or I can diagnose ourselves, go to the doctor tomorrow and tell them what they need and they write the 'script.

Just trying to spread some around!

Too much right vs. left crap in the world and I want to keep reminding people here that it's all smoke and mirrors.

Thanks for being a light in the darkness!

nanc

You are wrong again!

You are speaking about a system you know nothing about!

Doctors are prohibited by LAW from offering a "cash discount", that means that people who don't have insurance pay around 3 times the rate insurance companies do.

A wise man knows when to keep his mouth shut...

"Just trying to spread some around!"

I realize that! And Bless your heart! We definately need to see more of those qualities here!

"Too much right vs. left crap in the world"

Absolutely agree!! However, you will soon be called a fence sitter! Lol Folks here don't like it when one can see faults on both sides, and stay neutral. They still can't make up their mind which side of the political fence I'm on and I've been here for years!! Lol

" Thanks for being a light in the darkness!"

Thanks for the kind words.

You WERE responding to me, right??

Lol

Hey Lisa

Yes, that was to you but some nonsense popped up.

I just don't understand why people can't see government for what it is...controlled by big business. I guess they have so much misplaced anger it's easier to spend days spewing meaningless hatred than doing something productive.

I wish I could focus some of the energy wasted into reforming ALL government.

#14 - funny - I just recently met an attorney at a healthcare rally (he was with MOVEON) who stated emphatically that he received a $7,000 discount at the hospital when he offered to pay cash ($5,000) because he didn't have insurance...I have it on tape...and, personally have gotten a discount because of paying cash for a visit to an e/r...

The attorney in question stated he'd rather pay much more in taxes so everyone could have free medical coverage (on the tape) - seems to me, he and others would much rather spend the $7,000 in medical insurance coverage for their family - but that's just me.

Not to worry, under Obamacare if we run out of doctors and nurses they will send you to a witch doctor and then a death panel.

Well, it's certainly an improvement over those private enterprise, maximize the profits death panels we deal with now before running out of doctors and nurses.

Too many people are associating healthcare profits with health insurance profits. Health insurance profits are on average around 3.5%... but you don't hear that, you hear the dollar amounts cause those speak louder than compared to what most actually pay out.

If Obamacare wants to drive his income down in the name of cost control, or wants to raise taxes on his income, then there will be fewer doctors.

Doctors already face cost control -- what insurance companies are willing to pay for services. The pressures you think will come under health care reform already are here.

People who scare up opposition to health reform never seem to recognize that the existing system is screwing over patients and health providers.

#23 | Posted by rcade

And just how will it be different when the fed has their had in the pie? Nobody has read the damn thing so nobodys knows.

had=hand

If this is in fact true then it says a lot about why today's Doctors get into the field of medicine in the first place. It's not to make sick people well or to heal people. It's how many benjiman's I can make and how many high dollar cars and homes one could own. Sad really sad.

Larry

#26 | Posted by LarryMohr

Nice generalization, proof please. Spoken like a ture underachiever.

Whatever field you are in, do you do it for the betterment of man, or just for the paycheck?

Proof?? Hell You just have to go back to the olden days when the Country Doctor came to ones home and tried to make the sick better and many times all the payment they received was maybe a hot meal and some other bartered good deed. It's not rocket science ChickenRancher.

Larry

Well, it's certainly an improvement over those private enterprise, maximize the profits death panels we deal with now before running out of doctors and nurses.

I think FWTHOMs post is silly but, assuming some truth in it, how in the world would that be better?

#28 | Posted by LarryMohr

Do you provide your services for bartered goods?

It's moot. None of the bills currently before Congress create death panels. Of course, the insurance companies already operate death panels.

Everything on this blog is kneejerk vs Obama. Republicans don't care if everyone get covered they just want it cheaper for themselves. I'd like to hear a rethug would get everyone preventive care and not just ER care.

You don't have a clue, it's not about taxes, it's about insurance companies raking in profits by denying care and payment for services rendered.

#8 | Posted by tygersilver

You don't have a clue. You think bumbling burercrats are going to do a good job for a change. Thoes evilinsurance companies are making a profit. Well, that is the system we have had in this country for over 200 years. It has worked, unlike every program the government has done. There is no program they have run sucessfully. EVER!!!!!

If I could find someone to give Me a chance I sure would ChickenRancher!!!!!!. I loves to eat and a hot homecooked meal would be awesome. Now what do You have to say ChickenRancher??

Larry

JA,

Have you read the bill?

How much would preventive care cost?

How will it be paid for?

And just how will it be different when the fed has their had in the pie?

If it runs as well as Social Security and Medicare, it will be a vast improvement over what we have now. And if everyone is required to get insurance and pre-existing conditions are not allowed, we'll have a much better system.

I would respect opponents of the Democratic plan more if they had a real alternative plan they'd been fighting for, not just a bogus plan that's offered only to defeat the Dems. Republicans had eight years under President Bush to do something about health care. They did nothing, and will do nothing the next time they are in power. It's never been a concern of theirs.

#34 | Posted by LarryMohr

Instead of waiting for "someome" to give you a chance, just go do it. You are a big boy, just go do it.

#36 | Posted by rcade

Thanks for the laugh

You don't have a clue. You think bumbling burercrats are going to do a good job for a change. Thoes evilinsurance companies are making a profit. Well, that is the system we have had in this country for over 200 years. It has worked, unlike every program the government has done. There is no program they have run sucessfully. EVER!!!!!

#33 | POSTED BY SNIPER AT 2009-12-07 10:56 AM | REPLY | FLAG:
it is not working. Some people can't get coverage for any price. Just because you are covered does not mean it is for everybody. Chickenman not sure the bill in congress now says 900 billion. I say whatever it takes because it'll be cheaper in the long run

I am afraid of a bill that nobody has read, not even the very people to propose it.

How do you know nobody's read any of the bills?

Tom Coburn, a nearly certifiable senator from Oklahoma, the most Republican of states -- every county for McCain last time around -- was going to read the Senate's 2,074-page bill aloud in the Senate chambers, but decided to share Thanksgiving with other gobblers instead.

If he hasn't read the bills, then no one has.

Known in psychological parlance as the, "Ostrichrancher Effect."

#23 | Posted by rcade

And just how will it be different when the fed has their had in the pie? Nobody has read the damn thing so nobodys knows.

#24 | Posted by chickenrancher

it already has a hand in the pie..60% of all dollars are fed dollars in the system TODAY. This will increase as more boomers start sucking at the teat.

You don't have a clue. You think bumbling burercrats are going to do a good job for a change. Thoes evilinsurance companies are making a profit. Well, that is the system we have had in this country for over 200 years. It has worked, unlike every program the government has done. There is no program they have run sucessfully. EVER!!!!!

#33 | Posted by Sniper

blah blah blah..

18% of GDP dollars going to an industry that only provides coverage for 1/2 the populace, exempt from anti-trust and profits off misery.

and of course this is a-ok with you.

amazing.

Thanks for the laugh

#38 | Posted by chickenrancher

Your the joke buddy..

I just recently met an attorney at a healthcare rally (he was with MOVEON) who stated emphatically that he received a $7,000 discount at the hospital when he offered to pay cash ($5,000) because he didn't have insurance...I have it on tape...and, personally have gotten a discount because of paying cash for a visit to an e/r...

The trouble they can get into for doing that makes it not worth it for most hospitals and doctor's offices. They violated their contracts by doing that and can lose the insurance company if it is found out.

#8 | Posted by tygersilver
You don't have a clue, it's not about taxes, it's about insurance companies raking in profits by denying care and payment for services rendered.

I managed medical offices for over 15 years and spent most of my time fighting for money legally owed to doctors by insurance companies.

Health care is not a party issue, it's about a system that has been perverted by big business.

----------------------
Insurance companies make about 2% profit.

Medicaid and Medicare deny doctors their payments, so they pass it on to people with private insurance. Because insurance companies only make 2% profit they notice the pay cut,so the insurance companies then try to maintain their 2% profit by denying payments to doctors.

The Federal Government is the one who is distorting the free market, and causing the problems with the health care sector, not the other way around.

There is very little freem market principles being practice by the health care sector, the Federal Government has a large presence in the this sector, and that my friends is the root cause of the problems.

There is no program they have run sucessfully. EVER!!!!!
#33 | Posted by Sniper| Flag: Hyperventilated Hyperbole

This article is actually a complete lie. The Republicans assured me that doctors lose money when they do procedures paid for by Medicare/Medicaid. And the new Health Care Reform bill will make them all go bankrupt. I saw the made up poll. Made up polls never lie. Therefore the specialists can't be doing that well or continue to do that well. So everything is fine. Health Care is currently great. No need to worry. Nothing to see here. Move along, move along.

#49 Snippy has been like this for 6 years.

"How do you know nobody's read any of the bills?"

Chairman Price: Its Physically Impossible to Have Read This Bill

"How do you know nobody's read any of the bills?"

So Chumpel produces a more than four-month-old statement from Conyers, when the legislation was forming, and that's the best he can do? And then, slapping the dunce cap firmly atop his head, slobbers: "And quit with your broad sweep generalizing you drunk douche"?

I've repeatedly told you, Gnubsy, you should've stuck to those muffin recipes. Sure, like everything associated with you hey sucked, but not nearly as much the rest of your pathetic offerings.

Add 30 M more patents - cut their payment from Medicare - don't do anything from keeping the lawsuits at bay - watch their malpractice payments go through the roof..add to that the TAX burden (gouge the ones making over 250K)...and see how many more leave...or are left.

When you go after the producers of this world (in this case the doctors) like the Obama administration has done they will stop producing.

We are at the verge of the demise of our health care system.

Great! Another person who has no clue how the insurance/physician relationship is structured.

Doctors do not set the prices for services rendered, they are blackmailed into accepting a fee schedule for a particular plan. Don't accept the fees you can't see those patients except as an "out of network" provider. Some doctors have tried to fight this by not participating with any plan and as a result patients can't afford the "out of network" charges.

There is NO way to "pass along" or recoup anything. Medicare reimbursement is often higher than private insurance.

Insurance companies, like most businesses hide much of their profits and spend millions to elect whores on both sides so they are secure things will never change. 2%, what a joke...who would ever bother operating any venture with 2% profit?

I am afraid of a bill that nobody has read, not even the very people to propose it.
#40 | Posted by chickenrancher

How do you know nobody's read any of the bills?
#41 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis

And quit with your broad sweep generalizing you drunk douche.
#52 | Posted by The_Chapel

Just how drunk are you today, Chumpel?

Tyger,

You missed the mark on a couple of points. If Nanc is uninsured and pleades hardship in writing to the medical provider, CMS will allow a lesser cash payment than what the provider would typically charge Medicare. Otherwise they are restricted to billing everyone what they bill medicare. You also must know, being in the industry soooooo long that the average MLR of insurance companies has been constant for almost 15 yeaers at around 85%, meaning that premiums have only risen proportionally to healthcare cost.

You also must be aware that much of the gross overcharging that occurs is due to artificial rate setting by CMS in a game between providers and the statistical regional carriers?

Yes, the system is screwed up, yes the government has been trying to fix it for 60+ years... They haven't been even slightly successful yet. What makes people so sure it will work this time?

The only legislation I have seen that produced health care cost containment successfully was 2003 HDHP programs that put more responsibility but no more financial burden on individuals for their care.

What other legislation can ANYONE point to that produced actual savings and not perceived savings (i.e. artificially low rates)?

#55 | Posted by tygersilver

Insurance companies, like most businesses hide much of their profits and spend millions to elect whores on both sides so they are secure things will never change. 2%, what a joke...who would ever bother operating any venture with 2% profit?
----------------------------
All insurance companies profits are listed on any financial site such as yahoo finance.
The average % of profit by health insurance companies was 2%; WellPoint was just under 4%. Also the health insurance industries ranking by % of profit is at the bottom.

That said the economic sectors with the highest inflation rate are the ones with a large Federal Government presence. Does the computer industry have this same problem? No their products get better and cheaper, and except for trade policy there is little government interference. So if the free market was the problem than we would have this same problem across the board, and we don't.

People with private insurance subsidize Medicaid, and Medicare, and have been years.

The fact you claim to be an expert but had overstated insurance companies profits, raised a red flag.

Just because you work in a particular industry does not make you any more knowledgeable than anyone else.

This whole issue is being misrepresented by both sides. The issue is about power and control. Congress needs more cash. They have cooked up a scheme to get another 12-15% in revenue from the middle class. As SSI has proven over the years, there is no lock box in Washington. Thus the reason that Libs have insisted that the money must be placed into the general fund. For my money, I would much rather see the Insurance companies keep the profits as they at least have a decent track record of producing returns (income) for investors and actually making investment decisions based on sound business principals instead of political expediency. Washington beauracrats can't truthfully say the same.

"Sure, like everything associated with you hey sucked"

Ah, the good old self retorting retort from none other than Drunk Sorrypuss.

Yeah, like you are not Hoover material. LOL.

Nice one Captain Payback's drunken sotkick.

"more than four-month-old statement from Conyers"

Oops. Another moving rule change by the drunk.

Funny but you and your ilk are still blaming Bush and it has been more than four months.

And Conyers is your ilk as is Rangel and all Oboy's tax cheat/commie cabinet.

Nice group.

When ever you put someone between the buyer and the seller you have increased costs.

This is how most Americans buy their health care, we either have the government or some insurance company negotiating the bill, and this adds to the cost.

There is not question the Health Care sector had problmes, but the solutions I see comming out of Washington will only drive up my cost of living.

#61 | Posted by The_Chapel| Flag: DRUNK AS A LORD

I am speaking about Primary Care, the topic of this thread.

PCPs reimbursement is substantially lower now than 10 to 15 years ago combined with the fact they have had to increase the administrative staff required to operate. Insurance companies deny valid claims which means the office will have to make several phone calls, resubmit claims, pay postage, buy additional claim forms, and pay someone to accomplish this. Offices now are required to have full time "referral coordinators" who have to identify speciality providers "in network", call to confirm they are even taking new patients, fill out insurance required referral forms, send them to the insurance company knowing they never process it the first time, wait for approval...and ALL this expense falls on the doctor, eroding the reduced payments they are forced to accept.

Doctors make less, premiums are higher, you can spout whatever figures you like it just isn't true. If we continue down this path the quality of care will continue to decline. NPs and PAs do not have the diagnostic skills to provide quality care.

There is no overcharging in the PCP setting, at least not in the many practices I managed. We don't just make up fees, they are based on the cost of care and industry standards (UCR) schedules.

#61 | Posted by The_Chapel| Flag: DRUNK AS A LORD

#63 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2009-12-07 12:58 PM | Reply | Flag: LORD IS HE DRUNK

No, but you sure are.
~Lord

No, but you sure are.
~Lord

What he said.

Wasn't a question. It was a statement Drunk Scarredpuss.

#64 | Posted by tygersilver
PCPs reimbursement is substantially lower now than 10 to 15 years ago combined with the fact they have had to increase the administrative staff required to operate. Insurance companies deny valid claims which means the office will have to make several phone calls, resubmit claims, pay postage, buy additional claim forms, and pay someone to accomplish this. Offices now are required to have full time "referral coordinators" who have to identify speciality providers "in network", call to confirm they are even taking new patients, fill out insurance required referral forms, send them to the insurance company knowing they never process it the first time, wait for approval...and ALL this expense falls on the doctor, eroding the reduced payments they are forced to accept.

Doctors make less, premiums are higher, you can spout whatever figures you like it just isn't true. If we continue down this path the quality of care will continue to decline. NPs and PAs do not have the diagnostic skills to provide quality care.

There is no overcharging in the PCP setting, at least not in the many practices I managed. We don't just make up fees, they are based on the cost of care and industry standards (UCR) schedules.
--------------------------
Insurance comapanise average about 2% profit, but that doesn't mean thier cost to the health care sector is only 2%. As you pointed out there is all kinds of red tape doctors have to deal with when it comes to insurance, which adds to the cost.

The biggest buyer of health care is the Federal government. My doctor won't even except Medicare patients unless they pay cash. Why is that according to you private insurance pays less.?

If I hired a company to buy my groceries would I save money? No, but this is how we pay for out health care.

Again insurance companies only make on average 2% profit, it's the way we regulate, and pay for our health care that is the problem.

#68 | Posted by The_Chapel| Flag: WON'T SOMEBODY SOBER THIS LOSER UP?

Can't we hire some climatologists to work on the healthcare cost numbers?

Can't we hire some climatologists to work on the healthcare cost numbers?

#71 | Posted by mysterytoy

Next year they'll be back to doing peoples taxes in a mall kiosk.....

My first wife was an OB/GYN Nurse Practitioner. [A four year nursing degree, work experience and a few months of schooling with Planned Parenthood and working under higher supervision for the rest of that year.] though she was good at what she knew, she was in no way near the qualifications of an MD. Her training is in no way comparable to that of a doctor.

I wonder how may lawyers in the future will enrich themselves on lawsuits on what a Practitioner missed.

You don't have a clue. You think bumbling bureaucrats are going to do a good job for a change. Those evil insurance companies are making a profit. Well, that is the system we have had in this country for over 200 years. It has worked, unlike every program the government has done. There is no program they have run sucessfully. EVER!!!!!

#33 | Posted by Sniper at 2009-12-07 10:56 AM | Reply |

Wrong, again.

The current system has been in place since the early '70's, when Kaiser got to Nixon and, officially, started circling the drain in the early '80's when DRG's were implemented, giving insurance company bureaucrats the power to override medical decisions regarding treatment and length of stay.

The solution to the lack of primary care docs is simple, start paying them what they're worth. Their pay is capped much lower than surgeons and specialists. With their huge med school debt, it's no wonder that docs gravitate toward specialities that pay more.

Right is wrong

You don't have a clue, it's not about taxes, it's about insurance companies raking in profits by denying care and payment for services rendered.

I managed medical offices for over 15 years and spent most of my time fighting for money legally owed to doctors by insurance companies.

Health care is not a party issue, it's about a system that has been perverted by big business.

#8 | Posted by tygersilver
* * * *

Hi stupid. My point vis a vis taxes was that docs graduate college with a mortgage payment's worth of college loans. Attack them from the income side by hiking their tax rates, and a medical career becomes less lucrative, thus attractive. As it stands now, most of them are near 30 before they start drawing a paycheck. Easier just to be a garage mechanic.

And if you think getting money from an insurance company is a battle, good luck trying to get it from the government. Let me know how that goes.

You must be one of those 40-percenters. Gobama!

I don't have the time and energy to educate you. Do real research and learn how the system is NOT working.

Big picture...

America's health care rates 37th or thereabouts in the world, just ahead of Cuba. We are not doing a decent job of taking care of ourselves. You can go on spouting, parroting, trying to justify a greedy, profit raking, care denying, death dealing system but for me the debate is long over.

There is a reason we call it "reform"!

Thank you Morris!

I was going to bring up the Nixon/Kaiser "let's turn health care into a profit industry" HMO nightmare but figured no one would understand the beginning of the end of quality.

Right is wrong,

We don't reform to drive down doctors pay, we want to drive down insurance companies profit and increase the quality of care! You are too stupid to understand!

Medicare pays faster than most private plans!

#76 | Posted by tygersilver

I don't have the time and energy to educate you. Do real research and learn how the system is NOT working.

Big picture...
--------------------
The fact that you think insurance companies make a huge profit, you better start by educating youself.

Everybody wants reform. Unfortunately, none of the bills currently being proposed or discussed are about reform. They are about which crooked agency gets to hold the purse strings. And for my money, I come a lot closer to trusting an Insurance company who at least can be held accountable than a bunch of career beauracrats who can not. (Regardless of Party).

They cook the books! Huge salaries and bonuses, millions in "contributions" to government policy makers...where does all that money come from? Are you really this naive?

"And for my money, I come a lot closer to trusting an Insurance company who at least can be held accountable"

How have they been held accountable for the last few decades? Health costs have outstripped most other costs by a wide margin. In the last decade, health costs for the average worker has outstripped inflation by 4-to-1. Do you really want to "trust" them for another decade of that?

#80 | Posted by tygersilver
They cook the books! Huge salaries and bonuses, millions in "contributions" to government policy makers...where does all that money come from? Are you really this naive?

#80 | Posted by tygersilver
They cook the books! Huge salaries and bonuses, millions in "contributions" to government policy makers...where does all that money come from? Are you really this naive?
------------------------------
-----
How companies report profits is set by the Federal Government that is not to say companies don't cook the books they do. Is every health insurance company cooking the books and just has not been caught by the Feds? I doubt it but can't prove it.

Your comment that all fees are set, so it's impossible for a doctor/hospital to pass on cuts from the Feds to private insurance, your right they can't charge more for a MRI, but there is other ways besides the fees for a procedure in which they can recoup some money, anybody who knows someone who works in the industry will tell that is what they do.

The biggest buyer of Health Care is the Federal Government, not private insurance. Commonsense tells me to start with the biggest buyer 1st.

#74 | Posted by morris
The current system has been in place since the early '70's, when Kaiser got to Nixon and, officially, started circling the drain in the early '80's when DRG's were implemented, giving insurance company bureaucrats the power to override medical decisions regarding treatment and length of stay.
----------------
Morris excellent point, and who alowed this to happend the Federal Government, not the free market.

What happened to people wanting to be doctors to help people, not just to drive a Mercedes?

#4 | POSTED BY MISSESMERELDA AT 2009-12-06 08:33 PM | REPLY | FLAG

from each according to ability, to each according to need?

we all know how well that works.

Cash discounts my ass...I recently went to the ER because of a recurring medical issue that could potentially become a surgical emergency. I don't have insurance since I'm currently out of work. Once I was called back, I was asked by 3 different people if I had insurance. I got very stern looks from all 3 when I said no. All told, I was seen by a doc for 7 minutes. I was given a small dose of pain meds because I'm very sensitive and didn't want a whole dose. The nurse drew blood "in case the doc decides you need it," but the tests were never done. I was told to go home and call my surgeon--good luck getting a surgeon to even TALK to you without insurance...ROFLMAO (not). Got the bill the other day. It was over $1200. Between the nurse's 15 minutes and the doctor's 7, that ends up being $54 a minute.

2 years ago I went in with shoulder pain when I had insurance. I got Xrays, blood work, an EKG ( they wanted to be sure I wasn't having a heart attack), drugs, and the attention of 3, count 'em 3 different doctors. The total bill was only $700, of which I was billed for $75. That's a pretty big difference, I'd say.

Insurance is always better than a cash discount. One ER visit costs more than a whole years insurance policy. If not for work I am uninsurable. I'm lucky though because my meds which are 35 bucks a month with insurance would 400 without. Rethugs don't care but I know they would not want me as a neighbor without meds.

....but I know they would not want me as a neighbor without meds.

Posted by jackass at 2009-12-07 09:31 PM | Reply Flag: BECAUSE LORD KNOWS WITH THEM I AM A REAL NEIGHBORLY GUY

If you were my neighbor then I would invest in that moat. LOL.

And I would know where my dog disappeared to all of a sudden.

Morris excellent point, and who alowed this to happend the Federal Government, not the free market.

#83 | Posted by 90c2cab at 2009-12-07 03:57 PM | Reply

The Fed may have passed the legislation, but it was written by the insurance industry, your beloved "free market". The industry is not now, nor has it ever been, interested in the free exercise of capitalism.

We are at the verge of the demise of our health care system.

#54 | POSTED BY FOSHAFFER

you people are as stupid as a bag of hammers.

Amazing that the rest of the free world hasn't collapsed but the free market scumbags continually harp about how communist it is to take care of your citizenry, reduce cost and put the american manufacturer on parity with the rest of the world.

It is the one thing that will save our economy not kill it.

Its an Economic reality.

Hi stupid. My point vis a vis taxes was that docs graduate college with a mortgage payment's worth of college loans. Attack them from the income side by hiking their tax rates, and a medical career becomes less lucrative, thus attractive. As it stands now, most of them are near 30 before they start drawing a paycheck. Easier just to be a garage mechanic.
And if you think getting money from an insurance company is a battle, good luck trying to get it from the government. Let me know how that goes.
You must be one of those 40-percenters. Gobama!

#75 | POSTED BY RIGHTISRIGHT

amazing the rest of the world it isn't this reality..

a career in finance now .. forget it
lawyer.. too many
something that pays more than 100k .. very few options.

there will be doctors.. more fear mongering will not change the reality.

I have had very poor results going to a GP (for diagnosis of health problems). General practitioners are very into the PSYCHOGENIC diagnosis, in my opinion a lot of them a poor diagnosticians.

On the other hand I have had excellent results going to specialists. They may see a problem in thier specialty area thousands of times a year. This really helps in diagnosing a problem.

If you have an really good idea of what your problem is(say, stomach pain) I would reccomend you self refer to a specialist. Unless of course you have a real on the ball GP.

Have a problem?
Don't like the medical care?
Don't go to the doctor then.

Soon there will not be any to go to anyway, the lawyers can sue themselves.

How will any of this help us when the X203 solar flare hits?

#89 | Posted by morris

The Fed may have passed the legislation, but it was written by the insurance industry, your beloved "free market". The industry is not now, nor has it ever been, interested in the free exercise of capitalism.
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No matter how you try to spin it only the Government can pass laws, and if you have a beef with it contact your Senators and your Representative.

The problem is that Congressmen and women nor Senators give a damn about their constituents any more. Hell. Some of them even admit it. Instead of making laws in the best interest of their constituents, they are making decisions and passing laws in spite of their constituency.

And God looked upon the earth, and behold it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me, for the earth is filled with violence through them, and behold, I will destroy them with the earth. Genesis 6:12-13.

Jude 1:11. Woe unto them, for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward and perished with the gainsaying of Core.

Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

And of some have compassion, making a difference:

And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

18:5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

18:7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

Fuck the jeebus spam.

Anyone who played the game of LIFE knows that you want to be a doctor. It's all about the money and how many blue and pink pegs you can fit in the car.

"The sky is falling and we're all going to die.

I'm horrified.

#2 | Posted by Dave "

Wrong thread Dave. That belongs on the climate one.

Lets see: Fewer doctors, more people in the queue; result is longer waits and less time with a doctor. All will get equally poorer care with the exception of those who can fly to Costa Rica for their care.

Health costs have outstripped most other costs by a wide margin. In the last decade, health costs for the average worker has outstripped inflation by 4-to-1. Do you really want to "trust" them for another decade of that?

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For reasons beyond insurance companies.

WA WA HAAAHAAAAHAH HAAAH HAHHAAHA AHAHAHHAHHAHHHA HAHAHAH HAHAHA HAHAH AHAHA HAHAHAHAH AHHHHHAA *%$!&%* COUGH COUGH COUGH -- OH SHIT --- COUGH ...... AAAAAHAHHHHAHAHAHA.... I FUCKING LOVE IT. This reminds me of the underpant gnome plot - Step 1, collect under pants; step 3, PROFITS! HAHAHWWAHAAHWHWHAHAA and on and on and on...and on

The health care industry has led inflation for over 30 years. Of course there are other symptoms, but the MAIN cause is the lack of free-market competition caused by their government granted monopoly on access to pain control. 95% of what primary care docs do we could do for ourselves if we had legal access to the same tools and medicines licensed docs do. "Unauthorized practice of medicine" should be abolished. Fraud statutes that make it illegal to hang an "I graduated with an A+ average from Harvard medical school" (if you didn't) sign on your wall and treat 3rd parties should be sufficient to solve the problem of unqualified medical practitioners. Approximately one out of six docs are incompetent under the present system anyway.
We need an Amendment to the federal constitution which sets forth in clear language every adult's constitutional right to "doctor himself", and gives every adult legal access to all the same tools and medicines licensed docs use.
According to Nature's immutable laws of economics, mandatory health insurance (which is unenforceable anyway) is GUARANTEED to only diminish the quality of health care and raise the price. Ultimately, gubmint licensure only benefits the licensees, NEVER the consumer.
In a free market atmosphere, allotropic slash-burn-and-poison docs would function more like expert consultants than the paternalistic monopolists they currently are. Not to worry, they'll still do some business because nobody is going to attempt open heart surgery on himself.
Anybody with an IQ greater than his finger and toe total understands that if we knew how to stay well (by prevention and treating CAUSES instead of merely treating symptoms) and at peace, gubmint monopoly doctors and lawyers would have to find another line of work. Follow the money and the methods, and you will understand why allotropic medicine is the number one cause of death in the United States. THAT is why alternative medicine is growing exponentially: we do NOT need gubmint licensed monopolists to keep us from hurting ourselves. We adults CAN learn how to stay well and in good health on our own, which, by definition, means the medical industry will make less money. On the count of three, let's all shed a single tear!