Their guns weren't very useful were they. The bad guys move first, your gun will be as useful as theirs was. If the bad guys wanted to, they could have taken the guns of these officers and used them in future crimes---just like they could with your gun.

Bad guys in the future will just have to assume that all of their victims are armed, and take the appropriate action. If you can't get to your gun, it is useless.

BB, Well that shows that the intention was only murder. If you watch robbery videos at all, you will see that criminals wanting money will try to go for the money. But even though that the criminal is only going for the money does not make it unlawful for you to defend yourself from an armed aggressor.

BB, BTW if a bad guy robbing a store pulls a gun. He also risk another armed citizen shooting him. Unless you say that every time a robber goes to the store to rob it, he will have to kill anybody in the store and anybody attempting to enter or leave it just to be safe. A little over the top situation

I think this was more of a organised criminal strike against a police department, than anything else

This story is quite serious. When four police officers are set up for an ambush and killed, it's not an everyday occurrence. And Seattle isn't exactly a hotbed of crime and violence, as far as I know.

I wonder if these four cops worked as narcotics detectives? Drug cartels are usually the only ones with enough cajones to not blink an eye when it comes to killing four policemen in broad daylight.

The article gave very little detail. 10-1 it had to do with the drug cartels and maybe their growing marijuana up around the Seattle area. The drug cartels off anyone who gets in the way of their profits.

Looks like they sent a message. Maybe the cops will start treating people with more respect.

BB, BTW if a bad guy robbing a store pulls a gun. He also risk another armed citizen shooting him. Unless you say that every time a robber goes to the store to rob it, he will have to kill anybody in the store and anybody attempting to enter or leave it just to be safe. A little over the top situation

#3 | Posted by cmbell73 at 2009-11-29 01:48 PM | Reply | Flag:

I am saying that in the future, more and more criminals will realize that if they walk in to rob a store, that they must be prepared to shoot everyone in the store, or don't do the robbery. I am saying that as more and more people carry guns, that every robber will have to assume his victim has a gun and be prepared to shoot that victim if the victim makes a move. I am saying that in the future, as robbers are shot breaking into homes, that they will have to assume that the homeowner is armed, and plan for that scenario. I am saying that in the future, any robber that doesn't plan on shooting his victim, and gets shot himself will be considered a pussy and a fool. I am saying a gun is no protection against a bad guy that is committed to doing you harm. This is just one of many scenarios that prove the point.

This ambush had been well-planned. The killer(s) seemed familiar with the daily habits of the four sheriffs, the coffee shop they ate at before their shift started, that they'd be grouped all together into one booth making it easier to take them all out at one time, and that they would likely be distracted and easily ambushed 'cause they usually were on their computers when they sat at the booth.

Maybe the killer(s) even had help from someone working inside the coffee shop who passed on info.

Hmm.

I am saying that in the future, more and more criminals will realize that if they walk in to rob a store, that they must be prepared to shoot everyone in the store, or don't do the robbery. I am saying that as more and more people carry guns, that every robber will have to assume his victim has a gun and be prepared to shoot that victim if the victim makes a move. I am saying that in the future, as robbers are shot breaking into homes, that they will have to assume that the homeowner is armed, and plan for that scenario. I am saying that in the future, any robber that doesn't plan on shooting his victim, and gets shot himself will be considered a pussy and a fool. I am saying a gun is no protection against a bad guy that is committed to doing you harm. This is just one of many scenarios that prove the point.

#7 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2009-11-29 01:58 PM

BB, Well, this article was not a robbery, but a murder. Its a poor comparision at best. Im sure you can provide better examples then this

CC, Some restraunts near my house are visited by cops often. BTW, most of the cops that visit are VICE squads or SWAT teams

BB, Well, this article was not a robbery, but a murder. Its a poor comparision at best. Im sure you can provide better examples then this

#9 | Posted by cmbell73 at 2009-11-29 02:04 PM | Reply | Flag:

You can disregard this if you like, but the point still stands. No matter how well trained you are, if a bad guy wants to hurt you, your gun won't protect you if the bad guy makes the first move.

This would hold true with a committed store robber. I have seen the videos where these punks walk into a store with their gun drawn and give the store owner the chance to respond. Other bad guys see the same video, and realize that if they are going to do this crime, they MUST be prepared to shoot, or risk dying themselves. Same with a home invasion---same with a street mugging. The bad guys have to realize they have to be willing to shoot first or they will be dying.

You can disregard this if you like, but the point still stands. No matter how well trained you are, if a bad guy wants to hurt you, your gun won't protect you if the bad guy makes the first move.

This would hold true with a committed store robber. I have seen the videos where these punks walk into a store with their gun drawn and give the store owner the chance to respond. Other bad guys see the same video, and realize that if they are going to do this crime, they MUST be prepared to shoot, or risk dying themselves. Same with a home invasion---same with a street mugging. The bad guys have to realize they have to be willing to shoot first or they will be dying.

#11 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2009-11-29 02:20 PM

BB, If you mean first move you mean the intention to murder in cold blood. "Your Right" But a real heavy majority of the time, thats not an intention. Really its silly you even bring up a senerio like that, cold blood murder is just that "Cold Blood Murder" it has nothing to do with Self Defense or Defensive Weapons. It has to do with intention, dont confuse the two. And dont try to try that into anything that has to do with it.

It has to do with intention, dont confuse the two. And dont try to try that into anything that has to do with it.

#12 | Posted by cmbell73 at 2009-11-29 02:37 PM | Reply | Flag

So you are saying that bad guys who pull guns in robberies have no intention of harming anyone? Is that your point?

BB, You posted an article of a cold blooded murder. Then at the same time commented as if lack of proper self defense had to do with it. Again this act had nothing to do with weapons or self denfense. A person committed to murder will use anything at their disposal. Their intention is their motivation

A persons Motivation for robbing a store is money, thats what they want. Now the weapon they use to get the money, becomes a threat. I take a threat very seriously from any stranger I dont know. I will defened myself, and anybody around me in a manner that our lives are in danger. Im not going to read minds and will act in the manner that is written in law. I have the right to carry a gun for self denfense and will use it if need be.

I train in a manner that gives me a better hand than a street level criminal. You can talk big about what senerios might beat me. But I have full confidence that I will not have to worry about that kind of exchange, my weapon will be awarness first.

I am saying a gun is no protection against a bad guy that is committed to doing you harm.

If the guy is committed so using force from the get go nothing will help you.

As with every other thread on this topic, you state something obvious and think you're making some controversial point.

This is just one of many scenarios that prove the point.

You don't have a point, Bob.

As with every other thread on this topic, you state something obvious and think you're making some controversial point.

#15 | Posted by jpw at 2009-11-29 03:37 PM | Reply | Flag:

I agree---it is obvious. However, many think it is controversial--reference cmbell, and everyone who comments about my statement that a car antenna in your hand is a better defense weapon than a gun you can't get to.

I have made this point many times---there is always controversy---I suggest you convince cmbell my point is obvious.

store owner took the gun away from a guy trying to rob his store in baltimore and shot him 3 times,one less asshole in the gene pool.

As with every other thread on this topic, you state something obvious and think you're making some controversial point.

#15 | Posted by jpw at 2009-11-29 03:37 PM | Reply | Flag:

I agree---it is obvious. However, many think it is controversial--reference cmbell, and everyone who comments about my statement that a car antenna in your hand is a better defense weapon than a gun you can't get to.

I have made this point many times---there is always controversy---I suggest you convince cmbell my point is obvious.

#16 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2009-11-29 04:05 PM

BB, You need to read JWP post again, I dont think you are getting it.

BB, BTW read post #12 And I too point out and agree what you state is the obvious. Matter of fact reread all my post on this thread because it seems to me you just quick read what you want. Then if I posted something you think is not right or outrageous please rebut.

CMBell,

Dunno if you know but you're arguing with one of the biggest tin foil headgear fetishists 'round this place.

Hey Boob, could you give us some Car Antennae tips that could have proved useful to these officers? Or maybe they were reading about smokestacks on the moon and it just set the perp off?

From the Cascade Foothills where I live, about 15 miles as the crow flies. But given the terrain of hills, foothills, winding rivers etc, it would take me about 30-35 minutes to drive there.

Tonight's news should be interesting. They haven't identified yet, but I know a lot of Lakewood cops as I used to handle their Workers' Compensation.

I'm not really a big fan of some cops, but this is really sad.
I would not want to be the guy who did this when they finally catch him.

"Shot trying to escape"

Anyone wanting a local slant, let me know and I can post here the latest info as it comes. We'll probably get it faster than MSM.

FYI, they were wearing bulletproof vests. All 4 dead.
That means he walked and placed 4 well aimed shots to the heads.
This guy is either a pro, or ex-military, or a natural born killer.

REGAN, I think all of us have been here long enough to know about BB. Thank You Though

Briwo

Anyone wanting a local slant, let me know and I can post here the latest info as it comes. We'll probably get it faster than MSM.

I'd be interested and I'm sure some others would too. Keep us updated either on this thread, or if it's taken down, then put the latest news about this story on the Nooner. Thanks.

If people are going to argue that concealed carry gun laws make people safer, they should realize that situations like this challenge their premise.

The gun advocates want it both ways. When a mass shooting occurs against an unarmed group, they say it means we need more armed people. But when a mass shooting occurs against extremely well-trained and armed people, it doesn't necessarily prevent anything.

Personally, I think I have more to fear from an overarmed populace than an underarmed one. Most people are too stupid to be able to handle the responsibility of a gun.

RCADE, It challenges nothing. If poision would have been in their coffee, would this even been a topic

The police in our region are among the most professional law enforcement officers one will ever encounter anywhere in the world. And the officers of Lakewood and Tacoma are particularly challenged by a level of gangland activity as insidious as any in the United States. As a former Tacoma "hilltop" resident, I have observed these men and woman first hand. They have done valiant work and deserve our utmost respect. The fact that they have placed themselves on point to protect us from savagery is evidence of their dedication to us, even though most of us have done nothing to earn their respect. These officers and their families deserve our somber gratitude for their sacrifice. And, the perpetrators of this atrocity must be brought to certain justice. Signed, Thankful Citizen.

"I wonder if these four cops worked as narcotics detectives? Drug cartels are usually the only ones with enough cajones to not blink an eye when it comes to killing four policemen in broad daylight.

The article gave very little detail. 10-1 it had to do with the drug cartels and maybe their growing marijuana up around the Seattle area. The drug cartels off anyone who gets in the way of their profits.

#5 | Posted by CalifChris at 2009-11-29 01:50 PM | Reply | Flag: "

I heard on CBC radio 1 that the local Police force said that they were just regular beat cops. I don't know about what regular beat cops do before shift, but I find it hard to believe that they meet at coffee shops before shift to organize thier day on laptops. Something's off here....

Yeah, you're right, who's ever heard of regular beat cops hanging out at a donut/coffee shop? Mysterious indeed:)

Echo that, CMBELL,

If something is supposed to be 100% reliable, then it doesn't exist. CCW gives you a chance, but doesn't guarantee results. And it has been shown to give you a better chance than not carrying a weapon or being mentally prepared to defend/counterattack someone who threatens you.

FOX News is covering the story now. Here's their report --

One suspect, possibly two

Suspect was described as a black male, between 25 - 35 years old

He used a handgun to kill all four officers

Murdered officers were three men and one woman

The police are swarming the area as they believe their best chance to catch the guy is if they do it within the next few hours

I heard on CBC radio 1 that the local Police force said that they were just regular beat cops. I don't know about what regular beat cops do before shift, but I find it hard to believe that they meet at coffee shops before shift to organize thier day on laptops. Something's off here....

#27 | Posted by BruceBanner at 2009-11-29 04:59 PM

I don't see it as odd. Cops here in L.A. come into Denny's Coffee shop, Winchell's Donuts, wherever. They probably went in to have a bite to eat and coordinate what they had planned for the day.

And cops have a lot of paperwork. Before they got into their patrol cars, they could have been using their computers to look up what crimes may have occurred in their patrol area previous to their going on their shift, APBs, latest bulletins from their Commanding Officer -- all kinds of info.

CC: Will do.

For us up here it makes no sense. They were beat officers.
Someone must have really pissed someone else off.

They probably won't have anything more to say until the 5 PM/8PM EST news cycle.

Here's a good place to track it:

It will be a whole other story if the gun man turns out to be Muslim reguardless of his intent.

Briwo

Who walks into a coffee shop, right next to Machord AFB, a lace usually crawling with cops and Air Force MP's(SP's), and just opens up and kills 4 cops?

WTF over?

Just my take on it?

The killer was likely a paid assassin.

He calmly executed all four officers with a handgun. He knew what he was doing.

Question is -- who (or which group) paid him and why?

Looks as though someone wanted to send a message to the entire police department in general. Maybe I'm wrong. Don't know your neck of the woods. Do you have drug cartels working in the surrounding area up there?

Here's the latest:

Troyer said there were several active scenes that officers were working. A white pick-up truck was impounded from a parking lot at one scene and a person was taken into custody at another.

He said they are looking to see if there is any surveillance cameras that may have caught the suspect on video.

#35, Not really. Mostly just local marijuana growers.

Lots of prostitution in that area. From where they were sitting at about 116th street, there's about a 50 block hooker zone.

It's right near mchord and Ft. Lewis and has never been the greatest of area's.

This just seems way over the top! Sounds like gang initiation rites and I think the reason it went so well is that the area (just south of Tacoma) is not exactly a hot bed of criminal activity... no one saw it coming as they would a few miles north... the other side of Tacoma in the outskirts of Seattle. This is bedroom suburbia... some rural...and military.

Strikes me when a cop is killed while wearing vests the environment must be uber casual. Lots of head wounds... close up. Sad really sad.

that the area (just south of Tacoma) is not exactly a hot bed of criminal activity..

WHAT!!?!?!?!

Are you new?

I've been here since 1981 and Lakewood/Ponders/Tillicum has ALWAYS been "a hotbed of criminal activity."

shit they were eating at the northern end of approx a 65 block strip of prostitution, drugs, transients and all that goes with it.

The four police killed in Oakland in May were shot by a wanted parolee, but this case looks like an inside job.

10-4, Rightistrite. The area in question (South Tacoma/Lakewood) has been crime ridden for years. One local on the news this morning mentioned that a day or so prior to the shooting an old lady was mugged and severely beaten in the vicinity of the coffee shop in question.

I am saying that in the future .....I am saying that as more ........... I am saying that in ......... I am saying that ........ I am saying a gun is no protection

#7 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2009-11-29 01:58 PM

What you are saying is bullshit. Violent crime goes down in every place that conceal-carry goes up. A guy goes into a coffee shop with a gun, and suddenly, he doesn't know who is packing heat.

Sucks when reality does not agree with your paranoia

RINGMASTER said

"It will be a whole other story if the gun man turns out to be Muslim reguardless of his intent."

Actually, it depends.....

If he turns out to be a Muslim with a history of talking about support for violent Jyhad, or ties to Jyhad linked groups, etc, then yes, you are exactly right.

As it stands, I'll bet on simple criminal activity. The bastard AND whoever hired him need to be hung from by the neck until dead. Or just gun em down if they so much as yawn while being arrested.

Suspect may have been shot.

Buffalo BoB feel you should drop your pants, and spread your cheeks when assaulted, and if you don't have lube, you DESERVE to be beaten.

BoB, you probably wont comprehend this:

Its better to be free people AND have violent deaths occur while resisting thugs, than to be the play things of thugs.

This has nothing to do with Seattle, Seattle is an hour drive from Lakewood on a good day. Lakewood is a small contiguous area that stems from south Tacoma going towards Portland. The exit that you take leads to the left where Forza coffee and the McChord base is located and to the right where you enter Lakewood.

Lakewood is a area that has a small town feel to it, there are new shops and strip malls everywhere and it is very different from the older Tacoma area.

About a mile from the coffee shop is the new town hall and police station, about a 1/2 mile is the sheriffs station. It is the easiest access spot for someone going to work at McChord or 'down town' Lakewood.

The first time I went there I had got a $5 gift card from my dentist because the had me waiting for an hour. A gorgeous red head works there and I flirted with her about not knowing how to speak Italian, even though she doesn't work there anymore, it has become my favorite spot to grab a cup because it seems quiet and there are always papers there to read.

Over the last 6 months I have stopped in there about 2-3 times a month, even though I moved from Tacoma a couple of months ago, I have to go to McChord/Lakewood about 2 times a week and if it's in the morning I stop in for a latte, I was there last Tuesday. Almost every time I go in there are a bunch of police officers there bullshitting. It is their main spot for hanging out.

This is a punch in the gut, I know I've had coffee with these officers many times and it makes me sick to my stomach. These guys and gals were always laughing and having a good time. I believe this was a professional hit and it could be that there was some warning of something something coming, because the officers usually weren't in body armor.

I will be driving right past here again this week, I am sure it will be closed, but I plan on bring flowers to the memorial.

Rex

(you can delete this account now Rogers)

why is it always about the guns and not the people who use them!you people are morons thats why this goes on. i feel sorry for the families don't you.

The thin blue line is all that seperate us
from the scum of society. This piece of shit killer
deserves to be killed. PERIOD.

God bless the police; they have an impossible,
thankless job to do - but overall, they do it well.

Cops are not perfect, but they seperate us from
anarchy and jungle law.

Cops are why we have anything that resembles a
civilized society - NOT the ACLU, NOT lawyers, and
NOT the misguided compassion of morally stupid bed-
wetting liberals.

God Damn - stories like this make my fuckin' blood boil.

one of the cops fought with the guy to the front door, where he was sot again fatally. They know he returned fire at least once and they are hopeful he hit him and will need medical care.

No one is mentoning a blood trail or anything like that.

#45 -- Hi Rex. Hope you're back soon.

Sorry about what happened. It's hard when it hits really close to home. We had two police officers shot here in my town shot in 2005 by gangbangers. One cop, only 26, was killed and the other one paralyzed. Happened less than 2 miles from my house. Anyway, take care.

Is it a possibility that one of the cops helped to railroad a suspect? It has happened to me but I was lucky to have a good lawyer that got me off but I was out 3 grand in legal fees. If I had a public defender you can better believe I would have been spending a nickel in the joint. Pro Job maybe but possibly a little retaliation. I guess the true story will eventually come out. Remember though cops aren't always the good guys.

REX! email me. I use to handle lkwood Deputies Worker's Compensation.

If you know the names please let me know. I know quite a few lakewood cops.

Briwo

Oh puhleeeeze.... Lakewood is not a hot bed of criminal activity... it is in fact average for an American city of similar population and proximity to a military base. No I am not new to the area... just not ignorant. I agree with Lakewood it is not a Seattle thing... just Seattle happens to be sort of close.

Cops are why we have anything that resembles a
civilized society - NOT the ACLU, NOT lawyers, and
NOT the misguided compassion of morally stupid bed-
wetting liberals.

I take it you liked Hitlers approach with the SS or Amadenijads with the Revolutionary guards.

Dean the jerk sticks in his 2 cents but it's not worth a plug nickle.

Oh puhleeeeze.... Lakewood is not a hot bed of criminal activity... it is in fact average for an American city of similar population and proximity to a military base. No I am not new to the area... just not ignorant. I agree with Lakewood it is not a Seattle thing... just Seattle happens to be sort of close.

#52 | Posted by rightistrite at 2009-11-29 07:36 PM | Reply | Flag: NEVER BEEN ANYWHERE NEAR LAKEWOOD OR THE COMMUNITIES JUST OUTSIDE THE BASES.

Stop making an ass out of yourself. Oopps too late.

crime wise, Seattle is a joke. Hip Hop club shootings now and then, but the area in Tacoma where they were shot is much, much, worse than anywhere in Seattle.

I have to laugh when people talk about a bad neighborhood. Try going to a bordertown in Mexico. 3-5 murders every single day in Juarez. Almost not worth visiting but the prostitutes are so damn good.

Reward now at $100,000.

Cops are there to take the report...they usually aren't "on scene" when a crime occurs so that they can prevent it.

That's why the President, top tier actors, Rosie O'Donnell and rappers have a "security detail."

Some of us have to be our own "security detail" and as a result carry things to defend ourselves. Yep. Sometimes you actually have to watch out for yourself.

=================

OT, This is a tragedy, given that most of the LEOs I know are decent folks and are committed to doing the best they can by those they serve. My thoughts and wishes for their families and friends and the community.

Wow... I drove right by there last week doing the dumb tourist thing in Snoqualmie/Seattle/Portland.

Creepy. Glad I stayed on the Interstate...

Pretty offensive chickendroppings

Almost not worth visiting but the prostitutes are so damn good.

#55 | POSTED BY JACKASS AT 2009-11-29 07:57 PM | REPLY | FLAG:
Enjoy fucking those poor little latino sex slaves do you?

Hey Chris and Briwo.

Briwo, I didn't know any of the officer that go there by name, just by face. But make no mistake, this is a cop hangout. At any time of the day some kind of police officer is there.

There is a couple of reasons that the cops go there instead of the Starbucks in Lakewood.....one, the barista's are incredibly good looking. And two, there is a table that seats 8 or more which is blocked off from the rest of the coffee shop.

There was no escape from that spot, the shooter would have had the exits blocked firing from the place where you order your drink.

#60 | Posted by jackass

Why do you find that offensive?

briwo

how is the radio show?

#63: I know. Once I heard they were in a booth, I knew it was a turkey shoot.

They have a guy, Maurice Clemmons they're looking for. Long record of various crimes including rape of a child.

They're getting ready to move the bodies out with a massive procession.

God bless the officers. May the killers burn in hell.

chicken, I took a little break, but we all still do the Free World Pub every Sat morning 11AM EST, 8 AM PST.

And cops have a lot of paperwork.

I heard on the radio that's what they were doing -- getting some paperwork done.

Not that it's a major aspect of the story, but it is a shame that people who run the risk of taking a bullet for us can't have other staffers who handle the paperwork grind.

Too bad a certain member of the present administration was not in the coffee shop instead.

#59 | Posted by chickenrancher

You know why I found that offensive

I am saying a gun is no protection against a bad guy that is committed to doing you harm. This is just one of many scenarios that prove the point.

#7 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob

which makes my decision easier.. shoot all motherfuckers that indicate they want to cause you harm.. easy peasy.

Too bad a certain member of the present administration was not in the coffee shop instead.

#59 | Posted by chickenrancher

implying you wish someone dead in this administration especially after your negative rants against the president could land you in serious hot water.. not cool asshole

I thought it was going to be another cop that did it, but I guess not, looks like it is another case of a career criminal like the case in Oakland where the 4 cops got shot in May of this year by a wanted parolee.

The person of interest, 4 time felon Maurice Clemmons, was granted clemency by Huckabee, but had been released pending trial for secod degree rape of a child.

Busy guy.

which makes my decision easier.. shoot all motherfuckers that indicate they want to cause you harm.. easy peasy.

#70 | Posted by Legio at 2009-11-29 10:24 PM | Reply | Flag:

Then that makes you the bad guy.

which makes my decision easier.. shoot all motherfuckers that indicate they want to cause you harm.. easy peasy.

#70 | Posted by Legio at 2009-11-29 10:24 PM | Reply | Flag:

Then that makes you the bad guy.

#77 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob

Uh, No BB, maybe in your state. Not in Texas, the TX Penal code calls it self defense. Castle Law...So according to your statement you will not defend yourself from an attack until you are spitting teeth?

sec 9.22 for you link bitches

#75 | Posted by nanc at 2009-11-29 11:47 PM

Nanc Huckabee is a decent human which is an alien concept to you. I don't agree with him but he is probably the best out of a bad bunch. If Jesus came back to earth tomorrow it is almost guaranteed you would hate him for being too liberal and he would hate you for mocking his teachings.

It's my favorite time of day when bob deals in absolutes like "when the criminal gets the jump on you, your gun is useless"...

This is pretty wild and incredibly rare. It is like the 30's when gangsters shot up anyone standing in their way. I just wonder what these cops were standing in the way of? It had to be some sort of gang related hit. Either that or someone who was simply psycho.

There are a lot of people saying that this is just a quiet small town. What you are not thinking of is the fact that gangs infiltrate small towns all the time. Most of time it takes months for the cops to realize that they even have a gang problem in their town. I don't know if this is gang related, but it sure sounds like it.

New special laws need to be passed to help cops get rid of gangs all together.

I'm calling BS on this-the righties here have been saying if there were more armed people, there'd be less murders and we're supposed to believe one guy could take out four armed and trained police officers? Gotta be mass suicide by ACORN employees dressed as cops, to embarrass Huckabee.

#24 | Posted by rcade at 2009-11-29 04:49 PM

As much as you want it to, the argument for concealed carry isn't hurt by this.

If more people were armed there would be less murders and especially violent crimes. There is just no doubt about that. People who have the ability to protect themselves have a much greater chance of surviving an attack than those who do not.

The only thing this shows is that carrying doesn't make you invincible, it only gives you the ability to respond if the attacker doesn't immediately kill you with a head shot while you're sipping a coffee.

America has the most liberal gun laws in the world. We also have the highest rate in the world for gun related murders. Hawaii has some of the strictest gun laws in the nation. It also has the lowest rate of murder in the country including murder by guns. Hawaii is also one of the most difficult states to smuggle guns into which tends to keep guns out of the hands of the criminals here, which does help skew the statistics some but the cold facts are that less guns (especially hand guns) dramatically lower the murder rate. Go ahead and argue this, all you tough guy rtards, but this is one argument you can't win.

Let's see which one is dumb enough to try.

I guess I'm dumb enough Ringmaster.

I'll take what you post as fact.

You've cherry picked a corner case. Hawaii.

So if we make every state an isolated island with no other land mass around for thousands of miles maybe we could move towards stricter gun laws...

but, we don't live in that reality... what we do live in is a reality that of mainland states those with less strict laws see a decrease.

America has the most liberal gun laws in the world. We also have the highest rate in the world for gun related murders...but the cold facts are that less guns (especially hand guns) dramatically lower the murder rate.

Switzerland has higher gun ownership rate than the United States of America, and they have fully automatic, military grade weapons as required by law. When their conscripted service is done they can keep their weapons, albeit in semi-automatic form.

Yeah.

You're right. It's the guns.

#87 | Posted by RingMaster at 2009-11-30 01:15 PM

You're right. It's the guns.

#88 | Posted by Axiom at 2009-11-30 02:40 PM | Reply | Flag:

Try a drive by knifing--try holding up a bank with a knife. Guns are for pussies with no brains. The best they can come up with to protect themselves and their property, is a gun. The problem is geting to your gun when you need it. Had these 4 cops been cops with trained canines with them, and had tazers on the table instead of guns in a holster, probably two would have survived.

Try a drive by knifing

How about a "ride by" knifing?

There was a great one in "Young Guns" where Lou Diamond Phillips throws a knife at someone while riding on a horse.

"The problem is geting to your gun when you need it. Had these 4 cops been cops with trained canines with them, and had tazers on the table instead of guns in a holster, probably two would have survived"

you are aware that a TRAINED dog must be given the "attack" Command command first right? If your shot before you can say it, its not that good. The dog MAY actually run the other way when it hears the shot with out beeing given the attack comand. Also Replace Tazer onf the table with Gun on the table. No differnece in outcome since the would have to have the Tazers Holstered as well. I dont know what "whites-only" gated community you hail from BB but just because its a "non-deadly" weaponf ddoes not mean you can just place it anwhere you want.

They have to keep the taser holstered just like any other firearm.

Guns are for pussies with no brains. The best they can come up with to protect themselves and their property, is a gun.

As opposed to a car antennae, which is elegant and renders the wielder invincible.

The problem is geting to your gun when you need it. Had these 4 cops been cops with trained canines with them, and had tazers on the table instead of guns in a holster, probably two would have survived.

Or if they'd had their guns on the table, right Bob?

What weapon would have increased their likelihood of survival? Is there any weapon other than a gun that would have made this turn out differently?

I'd like to know exactly what object, other than a gun, would have prevented a determined killer from succeeding in ambushing and killing his victims.

You'd have a point if there was a way to go back and stop private ownership and circulation of guns in the U.S.

Hawaii never stopped private ownership of guns. It's perfectly legal here to own all the guns you want. The difference is that the registration laws are a lot more strict and you can't get a concealed carry permit. In fact you can't get an unconcealed carry permit without a damned good reason. You can only carry guns unloaded in a locked container or the trunk of you car and hand guns only when going to or from a firing range or licensed gun dealer. In other words the law in Hawaii only allows handguns for home protection. You don't have the hillbilly gun racks and morons running around with semi-automatic assault rifles in the streets like you see in the mainland. You also don't have the armed robberies on every corner like the mainland.

Your argument still does not change the fact that stricter gun laws reduce abuse.

I would prefer to have the right to carry a concealed weapon too, but I am not the only one on this planet, and I damned sure don't want every nut case in the state running around with loaded pistols, like Florida, Louisiana and Texas.

Guns are for pussies with no brains.

#90 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2009-11-30 04:18 PM

Your argument still does not change the fact that stricter gun laws reduce abuse.

#95 | Posted by RingMaster at 2009-11-30 04:36 PM

There's a balance to be found, but it won't be found drawing flawed conclusions from one state's statistics vs. another with completely different circumstances.

You don't have the hillbilly gun racks and morons running around with semi-automatic assault rifles in the streets like you see in the mainland. You also don't have the armed robberies on every corner like the mainland.

Your argument still does not change the fact that stricter gun laws reduce abuse.

First of all, you don't see "morons running around with semi-automatic assault rifles in the streets" on the mainland. I've never seen that once and I live in a large city in Texas.

Also, do criminals on the mainland only carry them because it's legal for others to do so? Hawaii has a special brand of criminals that only do things when they're legal? Do you see the idiocy of what you're saying?

....what we do live in is a reality that of mainland states those with less strict laws see a decrease.

Name one KWRX. That's a myth perpetuated by republicans, and don't come back with statistics from the NRA. I'm a member too and I know how they skew statistics. Try looking at the FBI crime statistics. They actually keep count, not just guess work.

First of all, you don't see "morons running around with semi-automatic assault rifles in the streets" on the mainland.

What? You mean only tea baggers do that at political rallies? Have you ever counted the pickups with gun racks in Texas? You are full of it.

Hawaii has a special brand of criminals that only do things when they're legal?

Now I know you are full of shit. You are talking out of your ass.

What? You mean only tea baggers do that at political rallies? Have you ever counted the pickups with gun racks in Texas? You are full of it.

Nope. I don't know that I've ever even really seen one here (although I am in the city).

Now I know you are full of shit. You are talking out of your ass.

Do you see the "?" after the statement? (I'm assuming you know what it means there too)

It means it's a question, not a statement. You answer it with a statement.

I was asking you if Hawaii has special criminals who don't carry guns because it's illegal to do so. The next logical conclusion is that the reason why you have less gun crime is because your criminals don't actually commit criminal acts.

Still haven't caught him. There were reports that he was sighted up in Seattle and near UW, but nothing has panned out.

They have seized and searched his house.

Everybody up in that area in just a wee bit nervous.

Here is an excellent link with real gun statistics, not some exaggerated right wing BS on gun ownership vs murder rates.

Everybody up in that area in just a wee bit nervous.

Especially the cops. This guy thinks he is another Baby Face Nelson. Good chance he's not going down without another shoot out.

And all it takes is a pussy with no brains to walk in your house with a gun, and you're toast, no matter how much you explain to the guy why your holding that car antenna.

#96 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE at 2009-11-30 04:36 PM | Reply | Flag:

The alarm would warn me, the dogs would bite his ass off, the tazer would make him do the funky chicken while I mashed his nuts with a baseball bat. All of those things are readily available, and much easier to get to than a gun that pussies like you put your moronic trust in. Talking about the car antenna shows what a moron you are---talking out your ass about something you know nothing about. What a surprise.

Try a drive by knifing--try holding up a bank with a knife. Guns are for pussies with no brains. The best they can come up with to protect themselves and their property, is a gun. The problem is geting to your gun when you need it. Had these 4 cops been cops with trained canines with them, and had tazers on the table instead of guns in a holster, probably two would have survived.

I've already demonstrated the fallacy that you push concerning a hopeless situation when the criminal has the upper hand.

the result of this would have been the same whether those guys had tasers or rocket launchers.

I've never claimed that I'm invincible or that my gun is my only means of self defense. That is YOUR assumption, Bob.

Try looking at the FBI crime statistics.

How about we look at the various studies that are based on both FBI crime statistics and comparisons to the rest of the world where one researcher wrote:

Scholars engaged in serious criminological research into "gun control" have found themselves forced, often very reluctantly, into four largely negative propositions. First, there is no persuasive evidence that gun ownership causes ordinary, responsible, law abiding adults to murder or engage in any other criminal behaviorthough guns can facilitate crime by those who were independently inclined toward it. Second, the value of firearms in defending victims has been greatly underestimated. Third, gun controls are innately very difficult to enforce.

[...]

"Therefore, the fourth conclusion criminological research and analysis forces on scholars is that while controls carefully targeted only at the criminal and irresponsible have a place in crime-reduction strategy, the capacity of any type of gun law to reduce dangerous behavior can never be more than marginal."[51]

The alarm would warn me, the dogs would bite his ass off, the tazer would make him do the funky chicken while I mashed his nuts with a baseball bat. All of those things are readily available, and much easier to get to than a gun that pussies like you put your moronic trust in. Talking about the car antenna shows what a moron you are---talking out your ass about something you know nothing about. What a surprise.

I contend that my gun is as close to me right now as your taser is to you. Regardless, both are equally effective means of self-defense.

You've got this idea that people who own guns only keep guns and none of us invest in other means to keep people out of our homes. Do you make these assumptions to justify your own position or are you really naive?

I can only say axiom that I really don't give a damn what that article says. I have never been anywhere in Hawaii where I was afraid of getting shot or mugged. I sure can't say that for the mainland. I witnessed two murders in just a few years. Both were in Nevada where guns laws are lax. I only lived there 18 months. I lived in Hawaii for over 30 years and never witnessed a shooting or a stabbing.

Oregon's murder rate is 1.9/100,000.

Hawaii's murder rate is 1.7/100,000. Gun laws aren't particularly restrictive in Hawaii.

Nevada's murder rate is 7.5/100,000. Prostitution and gambling are major industries in Nevada.

Vermont's murder rate is 1.9/100,000. In Vermont one needs no permit to carry a handgun open or concealed.

DC's murder rate is 30.8/100,000. DC has the most restrictive gun laws in the country.

Illinois, another very restrictive state, has a murder rate of 5.9/100,000 while Texas has exactly the same 5.9/100,000.

It's just not as simple as state gun laws.

I contend that my gun is as close to me right now as your taser is to you. Regardless, both are equally effective means of self-defense.

I guess I don't think I want to kill someone as much as you do. I would rather not have the memory of someone brains being splattered all over my living room, and the memory of seeing the dead body there. How long does the blood and gore have to stay at the crime scene nefore you are allowed to clean up? The clean up is something I'd rather not contemplate into my old age. Some, I'm sure would relish the thought---you may be one of them---do you have that experience?

You've got this idea that people who own guns only keep guns and none of us invest in other means to keep people out of our homes. Do you make these assumptions to justify your own position or are you really naive?

Actually, I have the idea that people who have other means to keep people out of their homes are simply paranoid. The alarm sign out front will keep any casual robber from your house, and a barking dog is further deterrant. However, if you have pissed someone off enough that they want to kill you, you will not be able to save yourself. Your gun is useless, as shown by this thread. The guy could be a quarter mile away and pick you off as you go to work, or come home. The bad guy makes the first move--if he is committed, as this guy was, no matter how well armed or well trained you are, you have no chance.

#107 | Posted by Axiom at 2009-11-30 06:13 PM | Reply | Flag:

The bad guy makes the first move--if he is committed, as this guy was, no matter how well armed or well trained you are, you have no chance.

Well shit. I guess the Secret Service should all retire now.

Well shit. I guess the Secret Service should all retire now.

#112 | Posted by Alexandrite at 2009-11-30 10:23 PM | Reply | Flag: THINKS ANDY GRIFFITH WAS REALITY TV

Well shit. I guess the Secret Service should all retire now.

#112 | Posted by Alexandrite at 2009-11-30 10:23 PM | Reply | Flag:

They didn't help Kennedy much. I guess you will always miss the point.

#61 | Posted by lakewoodcoffee at 2009-11-29 08:56 PM | Reply | Flag: IF ANYONE KNOWS ABOUT COFFEESHOPS IN LAKEWOOD, ITS GOTTA BE THE GUY WITH THE HANDLE LAKEWOODCOFFEE.

The bad guy makes the first move--if he is committed, as this guy was, no matter how well armed or well trained you are, you have no chance.

#110 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2009-11-30 10:14 PM

What a tard.

One criminal shows he has some accuracy with a gun, and da bOoB thinks they're all trained ex-Navy Seal snipers or something.

LOL

The alarm sign out front will keep any casual robber from your house

Well I've finally met someone who believes those bullshit commercials on TV.

I guess you will always miss the point.

Because you don't have one, Bob.

if he is committed, as this guy was, no matter how well armed or well trained you are, you have no chance.

No fucking shit, Bob. This is like saying "If the airbag goes off after your head goes through the windshield, it won't save your life. We should get rid of airbags since they're ineffective."

Is this really what passes for thought in your world? Do you really think you're arguing some subtle point that no one understands and therefore don't know how stupid guns are?

I can only say axiom that I really don't give a damn what that article says. I have never been anywhere in Hawaii where I was afraid of getting shot or mugged. I sure can't say that for the mainland. I witnessed two murders in just a few years. Both were in Nevada where guns laws are lax. I only lived there 18 months. I lived in Hawaii for over 30 years and never witnessed a shooting or a stabbing.

So in the face of any other facts to the contrary, you're going to remain steadfast in your opinion that more guns = more murder?

Are you sure you're not a Republican? They act the same way.

I guess I don't think I want to kill someone as much as you do. I would rather not have the memory of someone brains being splattered all over my living room, and the memory of seeing the dead body there. How long does the blood and gore have to stay at the crime scene nefore you are allowed to clean up? The clean up is something I'd rather not contemplate into my old age. Some, I'm sure would relish the thought---you may be one of them---do you have that experience?

I don't want to kill anyone either, but that doesn't change the fact that my handgun is just as an effective means of self defense as your taser.

Your gun is useless, as shown by this thread.

In this instance, their guns were useless, but as I've demonstrated on various occasions, your statement of absolutes is anything but the truth.

The fact is that there are plenty of occasions that have been pointed out to you where the criminal had the upper hand, but the would-be victim's gun was an effective means to stop the crime.

One criminal shows he has some accuracy with a gun, and da bOoB thinks they're all trained ex-Navy Seal snipers or something.

It's all part of his game. I'm pretty sure Bob would cheat at Monopoly by making the rules up as he goes along.

"Bob, here are a few occasions where people were being held a gun point and they were able to get to their gun and stop a crime from being committed"

"Well if it was a sniper from a few miles away, you're screwed!"

#118 | Posted by Axiom at 2009-12-01 05:23 AM | Reply | Flag:

Hey--next time somebody has a gun pointed at you---go for it.

;-)

police killed this scum this morning or last night

rot in hell motherfucker.

My gun stays in a place where, if an intruder was attempting to gain entrance to my place, I could easily retrieve it and waste him before he had a chance at me. It would have to be an incredible circumstance for an intruder to actually beat me to the punch.

It's all academic now as the suspect is dead. The real BS starts now as the news reports all the most convenient salacious details. Can't wait for all the gun legislation, checkpoints, domestic extremism legislation, etc.

Hey--next time somebody has a gun pointed at you---go for it.

Since you're avoiding the subject, do you agree that you're wrong?

Thank You Mike Huckabee.

HuckaHeeHaw pardoned this murderer.

We'll be sure to make that a point if he should decide to run again.

#112 | Posted by Alexandrite at 2009-11-30 10:23 PM | Reply | Flag: THINKS ANDY GRIFFITH WAS REALITY TV

#112 | Posted by The_Chapel at 2009-11-30 10:25 PM | Reply | Flag Doesn't think.

Send a muffin recipe, douchebag.

Since you're avoiding the subject, do you agree that you're wrong?

#123 | Posted by Axiom at 2009-12-01 03:43 PM | Reply | Flag:

Not at all. You are just too dim to understand what I am saying. I try to be as clear as possible, but some people just don't understand concepts more than--Guns shoot--guns kill--guns protect me. That would be you.

For those who can put more than two words in a row, and comprehend their meaning, I am saying that if a bad guy has his gun on you, it is a bad idea to go for your gun. I am saying that if someone wants you dead, your gun won't save you, unless they are as stupid as Axiom--then you have a 50-50 chance. Fighting for gun rights ensures that the bad guys will always have guns. Bad guys always make the first move--if you like those odds, go for your gun when he has his gun pointed at you. I support your decision.

Bad guys will come to the conclusion that if they stick a gun in someones face, that the person they are attacking has a gun---that will be what they look for first before looking for money. Bad guys will also have to assume that the victim will shoot them in cold blood the first chance they get, so they can't leave them capable of doing so. They have to be tied up, or locked up, or beaten unconcious, or shot dead. Those will be the rules.

If you are walking down the street and a bad guy sticks a gun in your back(I know--this never happens right?),the first thing he will do is get your gun. If you try to go for it, you have a very good chance of being killed. But as I said, I support your decision.

My gun stays in a place where, if an intruder was attempting to gain entrance to my place, I could easily retrieve it and waste him before he had a chance at me. It would have to be an incredible circumstance for an intruder to actually beat me to the punch.

#121 | Posted by everlong at 2009-12-01 12:42 PM | Reply | Flag:

Chances are if your home gets broken into, you won't be home, and your gun will be used in another crime. Chances are whoever breaks into your home, knows you have a gun--either from you talking about it, or someone you know talking about it, and your gun was the incentive for them to break in. Your only hope is that you get a stupid bad guy who breaks into your home when you are there and gives you the chance to get to your gun--doesn't have a gun of his own, and doesn't shoot you with his dying breath. Your value system seems that you would rather have a dead body in your home than pop for an alarm system that would avoid the whole scenario. It seems to me you live in fear, and get your courage from a gun.

#126 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2009-12-01 09:33 PM | Reply | Flag:

Oh I get what you're saying, but you're wrong.

I've linked to at least two instances where the "bad guy" had "the drop" on a would-be victim. Since you only deal in absolutes and I've offered evidence that demonstrates that the circumstances you lay out don't always happen the way you imagine them to, you're wrong.

I've never, ever said that being armed is a 100% guarantee of safety. Along with the personal responsibility of being permitted to carry a weapon is the responsibility of not putting yourself in a situation where you'll need to use the weapon, ever.