Here is the bill--

*choke*

Landrieu says she's concerned about the bill's costs to small businesses and individuals, and says she's opposed to a public health insurance option "that will undermine the private insurance market."

On Friday, though, Nelson came out in favor of opening debate.

"Throughout my Senate career, I have consistently rejected efforts to obstruct," he said in a statement. "That's what the vote on the motion to proceed is all about. It is not for or against the new Senate health care bill released Wednesday. It is only to begin debate and an opportunity to make improvements. If you don't like a bill, why block your own opportunity to amend it?"

The Nebraska Democrat sounded a positive note Thursday after emerging from a meeting with Reid, although he told CNN then that he was withholding his final decision on the motion to proceed until he had a chance to "study [the bill] or at least review it to begin with."

He said there had been concerns about the length of time the bill would be made public before the final vote and whether it would be read on the floor. but it appeared that Reid had largely satisfied his concerns about those issues.

Nelson also said the meeting did not include discussion of the specifics regarding abortion language, the antitrust exemption for the insurance industry and other issues of concern to him.

While Nelson has come on board, the hard part for the leadership now will be swaying Landrieu and Lincoln.

The two will play a pivotal role in the success or failure of health care reform in the Senate. If Republicans stay unified in opposition to the bill, Reid would need the support of all 58 Senate Democrats as well as independent Sens. Bernie Sanders of Vermont and Joe Lieberman of Connecticut to overcome a filibuster.

If Democrats do get the 60 votes needed to proceed, the legislative game only just begins. Expect several weeks of amendments being introduced, impassioned debates on the Senate floor and news conferences for and against the proceedings.

If the Senate manages to pass a bill, a congressional conference committee would need to merge the House and Senate proposals into a consensus version requiring final approval from each chamber before moving to President Obama's desk to be signed into law.

If you get c-span--Landrieu is on the floor next.

Will her speech be worth $100,000,000?

If she votes yes--I guess it will.

The bill does not have a bribe for Lincoln--or does it?

It's only been available to read for 34 hours--maybe 48 --so folks haven't reported on it yet.

So Mary will vote for the debate but holds out how she will vote in the end.

Very Cagey...

Here is a good history lesson paralleling where we are headed:

Wow.

A muffy -rir "discussion".

All this talk about a health care bill hurting small businesses, we need to not forget what is already happening to small businesses.

I work for a small business. Our group rate just went up 25%. On our annual renewal, we were informed our monthly charge per employee went up that much. We had to decide to absorb it, or increase the payroll deduction for everyone.

I have a hard time buying into the idea that doing nothing (which is essentially what will happen if this doesn't pass) is the best course of action.

You can be sure the republicans will avoid this issue unless the democrats push it through and make everyone talk about it.

I am eager to see what happens in the Senate.

Here is the bill--

*choke*

i.cdn.turner.com

#1 | Posted by MURPHY

Murphy- if the Republicans had of cooperated and collaborated on this bill instead of fought it all the way then maybe...just maybe it would have really reformed Health Care in America. But, since the Republicans decided to try and play fuck fuck with Obama (his Waterloo?) and the Democrats and put The Party before the People this is what we will get. This time.

At least we will pass a Bill...and in spite of the Republican Party. And that is how it will be remembered .

Maybe if and when the Republicans REALLY get behind Health Care reform in America we will actually get some.

Here's what you'll get if health care passes, BillJohnson.

Free vastectomy, free abortion.

That's about it.

Good luck.

And don't forget to be an organ donor. Senators, Representatives and other public servants will want lots and lots to choose from. Preferably with prior DNA analysis and family history.

Welcome to the Brave New World.

John the Savage, signing out.

Nanu nanu.

The best way to achieve efficient and cost effective medical care is when nobody has health insurance. You'd acutally be able to buy at its true value in the region which you live.

We already have programs for the elderly and the indigent.

If this passes we citizens who still love our freedom will need to file a class action lawsuit against our government for circumventing the constitution.

Maybe if and when the Republicans REALLY get behind Health Care reform in America we will actually get some.

#10 | Posted by donnerboy at 2009-11-21 05:02 PM

Stop calling it health care reform. It's nothing of the sort. It adds not one medical professional be it doctor, nurse, clinician etc. etc.

If you are naive enough to believe this is reform it'll serve you right when you get sick, or old, or are of the morlock class.

Hitler is smiling.

"Hurting Obama's overall reviews is that for the first time in our polling we find a majority of Americans opposed to his heath care plan. 40% say they support it with 52% opposed. Including 58% of independents." Public Policy Polling November 19, 2009

Wow.

A muffy -rir "discussion".

#8 | Posted by jerrytarkanian at 2009-11-21 01:47 PM | Reply | Flag: SOMETHING I AM INCAPABLE OF UNLESS IT IS WITH MYSELF

Hitler is smiling.

Posted by Washboard at 2009-11-21 05:14 PM | Reply

Godwin award You lost.

Larry

What this is is a calculated attack on medicare.

step 1: have a so called 'public option' that doesn't insure people, raises costs, and fines the poor who can't afford it.

step 2: companies get to dump their private coverage.

step 3: the people revolt against the 'public option' fines.

step 4: the 'public option' is removed, the people are worse off, and no one mentions national health care in this country again.

step 5: they do as much damage to medicare as they can.

Both parties are in on it.

So....no single payer. Got it.

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."-Benjamin Franklin

"step 1: have a so called 'public option' that doesn't insure people, raises costs, and fines the poor who can't afford it."
Pretty much says it all. I WAS an Obama supporter, I voted for him and wished him well. Now? not so much. One term loser. trouble is we all lose. Again.

In her remarks, Landrieu said, "I've decided that there are enough significant reforms and safeguards in this bill to move forward, but much more work needs to be done." She also touted the $100 million included in the legislation to help her state cover its costs under Medicaid, the state-federal health care program for the poor.
she amended that to 300 million and said it didn't affect her vote,so how stupid does harry and marry think we are

Attention to health is life greatest hindrance.
-Plato

Death is not the worst that can happen to men.
-Plato

Democracy passes into despotism.
-Plato

If this does finally pass and the taxes and deficits begin to mount we will know who to blame. Rush may be right, Obama may be a one term president. Along with a lot of Dems in '10 and then in '12.

you obama voters got exactly what you voted for " a dope with mange ". president duncil, demander and thief, a coward, man boy, Damn, it's hell when you come to the realization that elections have consequences, and the misinformed sheeple of the left just pissed away more freedom and liberty. you democrats should keep a closer watch on those within your party, the GOP has known of the extreme leftwing takeover since the 70s, you let your party go marxist, and without a fight. You bought the lie, now all of America must pay for it.
What part of social security, medicare, medicaide, cash for clunkers total failures do you not understand? whenever government tries to control, takeover, regulate the free market, it will always go bust. Capitalism is constructive, marxism sucks the life out of everything. PARASITES!!!

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."-Benjamin Franklin

#19 | Posted by Dirk at 2009-11-21 05:26 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

That has absolutely NOTHING to do with the Public Option so stop the bullshit lie4s like a typical righty. You guys on the Right have no legs to stand upon You are all weeble wobbles. You dig??

Larry

So....no single payer. Got it.
#18 | Posted by andyuhenet

We'll have to elect a liberal president before that happens.

So maybe we'll see some sort of change eventually?

Posted by Larry #25
That has absolutely NOTHING to do with the Public Option so stop the bullshit lie4s like a typical righty. You guys on the Right have no legs to stand upon You are all weeble wobbles. You dig??

Larry

"All you need is ignorance and confidence and the success is sure."-Mark Twain

Be ighnorant Dirk see if I care. You can not with any intellectual honesty equate that Ben Franklin quote with providing health care insurance for the populace. Do try and get some credibility about You next time.

Larry

All this talk about a health care bill hurting small businesses, we need to not forget what is already happening to small businesses.
I work for a small business. Our group rate just went up 25%. On our annual renewal, we were informed our monthly charge per employee went up that much. We had to decide to absorb it, or increase the payroll deduction for everyone.
I have a hard time buying into the idea that doing nothing (which is essentially what will happen if this doesn't pass) is the best course of action.
You can be sure the republicans will avoid this issue unless the democrats push it through and make everyone talk about it.
I am eager to see what happens in the Senate.

#9 | POSTED BY BILLJOHNSON

No doubt.. Health care costs are strangling innovation and growth in small business.
The Wall Street Journal just had an article attesting to this fact.

Repukes that vote against this are on the wrong side of history AGAIN. Does it ever become tiring to be deemed stupid and obstructive?

Well here is a giant FUCK YOU to the Republican senate and house.. Do nothing, know nothing, become nothing.

The only time retardicans can give a thumbs up to spending coin is when it involves the military and killing people.

fucking sickos.

Which goes to prove. When you think you are voting for the lesser of two evils, you're still voting for evil. This country has the dumbest voters politicians can buy.

So maybe we'll see some sort of change eventually?
#27 | Posted by Scrumplet

Come on, Scrumpy. We've got lots of change. We went from a catastrophic failure of a President to a arguably mediocre excuse maker of a President. Is that change and in the right direction? Of course. I'm just not so sure that its something worth celebrating yet.

Which goes to prove. When you think you are voting for the lesser of two evils, you're still voting for evil. This country has the dumbest voters politicians can buy.

#31 | POSTED BY RAY

except for you of course..If you think everyone else is a moron except you more than likely you are the moron.

Dear Larry,
Honestly I am not here to pick on you. But in my opinion when the citizens of this country give up 1/7 of the GNP to the Federal Government in the "hope" that the Federal Government will some how take care of them I think this is the perfect quote.

And by the way the Federal Government never produced or provided a God Damn thing.

"And by the way the Federal Government never produced or provided a God Damn thing."

Dirk obviously never drove on an interstate highway, or enjoyed protection from our military. He also never ate a bite of safe food, or breathed clean air. Nor does he use the internet.

The best way to achieve efficient and cost effective medical care is when nobody has health insurance.

There might be some truth to this comment, but you're being unrealistic.

Care can become so expensive that an insurance model is the only way most people can afford it.

But yes, you're right. If we closed down all the neonatal intensive care units, or only kept one or two open for the super-wealthy who could afford them, that probably would reduce our expenditure on health care.

Oddly enough, most Americans don't want to remove the babies from the incubators. We've become too "Politically Correct" for that sort of thing, to the lamentations of the libertarians and survival-cult right-wingers. :)

#36

A FF just doesn't cut it, but that's all I've got.

:-O

One question Dirk. Did You at any time support the Illegal War of aggression in Iraq??

In the final analysis, the people will have their say in the matter. This will probably pass and voters will have almost a year to examine it. If they like it, fine. If they don't like it, they can replace the members of congress who voted for it and have it repealed. It's that simple. This is not slated to begin for 3 or 4 years, so the 2010 election will be the final polls on whether or not this is what people really want.

Dirk obviously never drove on an interstate highway, or enjoyed protection from our military. He also never ate a bite of safe food, or breathed clean air. Nor does he use the internet.
#35 | Posted by Danforth

I'm surprised you still have the strength to repeat that. I was going to say that but then realized its like talking to the wall.

In other words, GO POUND SAND, TEABAGGERS!!!!! The adults are in charge now and they are going to do what is good for ALL Americans, not just the billionaires.

It is time the Democrats told the Rtards to go piss in the Potomac and get on with the business of this country.

"Dirk obviously never drove on an interstate highway, or enjoyed protection from our military. He also never ate a bite of safe food, or breathed clean air. Nor does he use the internet."

And here is the problem with our country. You remind me of the people that received the cars from Oprah. Clue, Oprah didn't pay for the cars and Oprah didn't make the cars.

Single payer, eliminate the burden of insurance on companies and destroy labor unions. This would be a windfall for business. Not going to happen unfortunately.

Posted by #40
"The adults are in charge now"

You mean Government Daddy!

"I'm surprised you still have the strength to repeat that. I was going to say that but then realized its like talking to the wall."

I gave up some time ago. The stupidity of Drudge rtards is overwhelming. I'll probably give up reading the Retort sooner rather than later. It's depressing.

Sure beats Jeff Gannon's idiot girlfriend spending 3 trillion dollars on a war to make his puppetmasters billions.

I'll probably give up reading the Retort sooner rather than later. It's depressing.
#45 | Posted by nullifidian

First Kanrei, then Manypaths, now nulli?

That's depressing.

One question Dirk. Did You at any time support the Illegal War of aggression in Iraq??

Posted by LarryMohr at 2009-11-21 06:19 PM | Reply

except for you of course..If you think everyone else is a moron except you more than likely you are the moron.
#33 | POSTED BY LEGIO

Obama is running deficits in the trillions, driving the economy into the ground. SS and Medicare have over $70 trillion in unfunded liabilities. SS payments are now coming from general revenue. With $2 trillion income and declining, clearly the federal government is going broke - fast.

You're a moron if your mind goes blank ever time I bring up these facts. I'm telling you now. This country is sinking into the mother of all Depressions. This health care bill only accelerates the process.

It's survival mode from now on. Forget your dreams.

Dirk obviously never drove on an interstate highway, or enjoyed protection from our military. He also never ate a bite of safe food, or breathed clean air. Nor does he use the internet.
#35 | POSTED BY DANFORTH

And every cent was paid for with the earnings that came from the private economy. As Danforth is soon going to learn, it is government that feeds off the private economy, not the other way around. As the tax base shrinks, you're going to see a lot of government workers get laid off.

Dear Nullifidian,
What is depressing is when someone attaches themselves to an ideology (or party) to such a degree that they have an inability to recognize when they are being bent over and ass rapped. But I guess someones got to be the bitch?

"Power to the people" is attained by giving that power to the Federal Government? I guess I am the dumb ass because I just don't get it!

You see when I run my company less over head means less cost passed down to the customer. I am sure your favored plan of more Federal Government red tape and a greater multi-layered bureaucracy will only enhance the quality of care. Right? I only hope that the same idiot I did business with down at the DMV is in charge of scheduling your brain surgery.

The Republicans probably bitched about Medicare and Social Security way back when the same way they're complaining now about this health care legislation.

But ask the Republican politicians for trillions of our tax dollars to wage an illegal war in Iraq so they could make billions for Bush and his buddies in war profiteering contracts and they'll answer: "Hey, no problema, how many billions do you need?"

You see when I run my company...

#52 | Posted by Dirk at 2009-11-21 06:48 PM | Reply | Flag: Wanker who whips his workers.

But ask the Republican politicians for trillions of our tax dollars to wage an illegal war in Iraq so they could make billions for Bush and his buddies in war profiteering contracts and they'll answer: "Hey, no problema, how many billions do you need?"

Correct. But two wrongs still don't make a right.

They are free to quit at anytime and go work at the job you provided for them.

Dirk I asked You a question would You be so kind and answer it. Thank You

"First Kanrei, then Manypaths, now nulli?"

Only killfiles will save the day. I'm tired of scrolling through page after page of moronic horseshit to find the handful of intelligent, funny, witty remarks that make laugh or rethink my position. It's like looking for a needle in a haystack.

Sorry Larry,
I went to go eat.

The "illegal war" is a false premises. I personally don't believe the UN has any right to tell the United States who or what is a threat. Of course I supported both wars. I thought Bush was a softy quite frankly with those far too stringent "rules of engagement". Dick Cheney now there is a man!:)

Here is a perfect example of what this new health care legislation will prevent from happening. This was the subject of a thread now on the Back Page.

"Coverage denied, girl faces deafness

One of the worst abuses of the private health insurance industry is its practice of denying claims to pay for necessary care for patients.

This practice has become so rampant in the industry that a recent study by the California Nurses Association found that a whopping 21 percent of all insurance claims filed in the first half of 2009 in the state of California were denied by insurers.

And another falsehood -- the government will NOT be running the program the same as the government does not now run Medicare or the veterans' Tri-Care program.

The private health insurance companies have been allowed to run amok for too long now. Premiums are constantly being raised and insurance policies being dropped when an insured's medical claims became too expensive.

Also, with the private health insurance companies, anyone seeking coverage with even a minor medical problem -- like asthma, etc. -- could be denied coverage under the guise of a "pre-existing condition." That will not be allowed to happen with this new health care legislation.

Something had to be done. This may not be the perfect health care bill but it's a start and provisions which don't work well can be adjusted as needed in the future.

Dear Nullifidan,
Why don't you quite your whining and get off of this site and go create some jobs for my workers that I treat so harshly?

We got it. Your smart and we are all simpletons. go, go,....

The "illegal war" is a false premises. I personally don't believe the UN has any right to tell the United States who or what is a threat. Of course I supported both wars. I thought Bush was a softy quite frankly with those far too stringent "rules of engagement". Dick Cheney now there is a man!:)

Posted by Dirk at 2009-11-21 07:18 PM | Reply

So You supported both wars then You supported a 3 trillion dollar malady therefore how can You speak negatively about the Federal Government providing health care insurance?? Seems to Me You done forfeitted Your right to bitch. But THANKS for at least answering My question. Appreciate it.

Larry

Only killfiles will save the day.

I'm tired of scrolling through page after page of moronic horseshit to find the handful of intelligent, funny, witty remarks that make me laugh or rethink my position. It's like looking for a needle in a haystack.

#59 | Posted by nullifidian at 2009-11-21 07:12 PM

No need to go to the trouble of "looking for a needle in a haystack" in order to find "the handful of intelligent, funny, and witty remarks" which make you laugh or rethink your position.

Just go straight to my userpage.

Dear Larry,
Because defending our county against a foreign threat and pillaging the best health care system in the world are the same thing. Got it!

PS. Califchris,
That was funny!

Also, with the private health insurance companies, anyone seeking coverage with even a minor medical problem

Wrong, Chris. It is the federal and state governments who are controlling the insurance companies with regulations and government insurance. Health insurance was working fine until Medicare started driving up prices. Collectively, the insurance companies earned a 2% profit last year.

Considering how government fucks up everything it touches, I can't imagine how you think they'll do any better with medical insurance. The way they created this mess is only a taste of worse to come.

Lol Chris!

How's the painting going?

We got it. Your[sic] smart and we are all simpletons. go, go,....

#62 | Posted by Dirk

That's the first intelligent thing you've said so far, Dick.

Because defending our county against a foreign threat and pillaging the best health care system in the world are the same thing. Got it!

PS. Califchris,
That was funny!

Posted by Dirk at 2009-11-21 07:31 PM | Reply

Hey there was nothing to defend against in Iraq but do carry on with Your right winged delusions. They will help You sleep at night.

Larry

"Power to the people" is attained by giving that power to the Federal Government?

Yes, that's more or less how it was explained to me in Social Studies class in the sixth grade.

Do you think "power to the people" is achieved some other way? Who would you give the power of the people to?

That's the first intelligent thing you've said so far, Dick.

#68 | Posted by nullifidian at 2009-11-21 07:37 PM | Reply | Flag: Still waiting for his to come

No need to go to the trouble of "looking for a needle in a haystack" in order to find "the handful of intelligent, funny, and witty remarks" which make you laugh or rethink your position.

Just go straight to my userpage.

#64 | Posted by CalifChris

I'm with you, Christine. I'll never killfile you, babe.

"Dick"?

Don't strain yourself with those witty comebacks.

Naaaaw....Null won't killfile you Chris.

I'll be the first one he does though. : )

"Yes, that's more or less how it was explained to me in Social Studies class in the sixth grade."

When you get past 7th grade you might understand a bit more.

This country is sinking into the mother of all Depressions. This health care bill only accelerates the process.

Well if it only accelerates an inevitable process, I'd say good for us. We're doomed either way, but at least we'll have health care. And when eventually we recover, our economy will be bolstered by a healthy workforce. :)

LOL

FF Dirk

He got ya Null!

I'll be the first one he does though. : )

No, he has stated several times that I will be the first. *thumbing my nose at you, Lisa*

I still can't figure out how stupid someone has to be to depend on a software solution to avoid posters he doesn't like. Is it really possible tht people this ignorant walk the earth? I guess at least one does.

"I'm surprised you still have the strength to repeat that. I was going to say that but then realized its like talking to the wall."

Yep. It was fun to tweak the Dirkster for a couple of days, then the mantras and his lack of reading (either the act itself or the comprehension skills to make it worthwhile) made him just boring. Hell, Afk at least reads my words and understands them. (Hey, Akf! : ) )

+++++

"First Kanrei, then Manypaths, now nulli?

That's depressing."

Truly. Please tell me that none of these folks are actually leaving. And Hagbard, you are NOT allowed. Don't get inspired or something, 'kay?

+++++

"During WW II, Nazi's charged the jews they executed for the bullets used in their executions. It seems America is intent on following the same path. "

Godwin again. But wow, that one was at least clever. Er, sort of.

+++++

"Because defending our county against a foreign threat and pillaging the best health care system in the world are the same thing. Got it!"

Jesus GOD. Now _that's_ depressing. I think he actually offers this shit with a straight face. "Best health care system in the world"--wow. Just. Wow.

+++++

As for witty comebacks, I figure Dirk's posts are their very own comebacks. It's all good.

And seriously, you know what? Debate is happening; that does not mean the bill will pass. And even if it does, there has to be the combined bill, right?

But here's the thing: If the bill currently before the Senate is so very very bad, then its opponents have their chance to prove it.

That, to me, seems right and proper.

Well Goatman, I have to agree with Null in regards to being sick of scrolling past a lot of mindless posts.

When BL2 is at the library he floods threads. It's maddening to me at times.

Poor dull.

We're doomed either way, but at least we'll have health care. And when eventually we recover, our economy will be bolstered by a healthy workforce. :)

#76 | Posted by snoofy

You're kidding, right? If we're in a depression, who's going to pay for all our health care?

The best way to achieve efficient and cost effective medical care is when nobody has health insurance.

Interesting concept. How many Doctors do you believe will incur hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical school loans to earn $40,000 per year?

Either that or people will skip all but the most necessary treatments at hospital ER, overwhelming the hospitals and defaulting on the bills.

You would eliminate the bureacracy of having staff at doctors offices that deal with billing and collecting from insurers that exists now.

And those poor Insurance CEO's .... where would they be paid there multi million dollar salaries?

"Well Goatman, I have to agree with Null in regards to being sick of scrolling past a lot of mindless posts.

When BL2 is at the library he floods threads. It's maddening to me at times."

Poor Goatman. When even Lisa is on my side you know he's fucked.

I am just wondering if all you righties who are predicting gloom and doom will eat your frigging words when the reform works. Well will you?

When BL2 is at the library he floods threads. It's maddening to me at times.

His posting style, like deth's and a few others whom I generally avoid is unique and very easy to scroll past.

In the final analysis, the people will have their say in the matter. This will probably pass and voters will have almost a year to examine it. If they like it, fine. If they don't like it, they can replace the members of congress who voted for it and have it repealed. It's that simple. This is not slated to begin for 3 or 4 years, so the 2010 election will be the final polls on whether or not this is what people really want.

#39 | Posted by redman

Bingo, folks aren't going to like it if the bill ultimately passed is the senate version-- the reason is that this is a TAX BILL and not a healthcare reform bill. The core elements are:

1. about 400- 500 billion in medicare cuts-- now with baby boomers coming on board in 2-3 years,do you really think they're going to be able to cut those kinds of costs?
2. increase in premiums for those with health insurance--- I was able to avoid laying off employees in my small business this past recession but this could become a job killer
3. increase taxes---mentioned about 185 times in this bill

And there you have it folks, this thing is not about healthcare reform but it's a tax bill masquerading as a healthcare bill---once again the American populace is played for the fools (sorry) they are.

When even Lisa is on my side you know he's fucked.

Oh yes. I feel so fucked. Does that blow air up your skirt, dull?

I never cease to be amazed at the things the dimmer witted amongst us think bother me. Mabe if you called me a moron or something in that post I'd really be bawling my eyes out. LOL

To my liberal friends here:

1) Would you prefer single payer?

2) Do you believe this is a backdoor attempt to get single payer?

3) if answer to #2 is yes, are you pissed that we're going to suffer through years of this boondoggle (in its current form) to achieve #1 instead of just starting at single payer?

"Poor Goatman. When even Lisa is on my side you know he's fucked."

Posted by nullifidian at 2009-11-21 08:12 PM | Reply

Why?

Two Italian women agreeing on something is not unusual at all. Now maybe the age difference is but.....

"1) Would you prefer single payer?

2) Do you believe this is a backdoor attempt to get single payer?

3) if answer to #2 is yes, are you pissed that we're going to suffer through years of this boondoggle (in its current form) to achieve #1 instead of just starting at single payer?"

Your analysis is pretty accurate I'd say and I'd also say that this is probably the only way to achieve that long term goal. Clinton learned his lesson after his healthcare boondoggle, you pass what you can pass when you can pass it. Pragmatic, incremental, but inevitable change. That's how our system works.

Null don't be a dork!

If I agree with someone, even someone as nasty to me as you are, I will say do.

And there you have it folks, this thing is not about healthcare reform but it's a tax bill masquerading as a healthcare bill---once again the American populace is played for the fools (sorry) they are.
#88 | POSTED BY MATSOP

Fools don't care about facts.

Goatmanah

It's not that I can't figure out which posts are his...it's just scrolling past twenty of them to get to someone elses!

So not do...sorry

And it's Goatman...not whatever the heck I typed!

Geesh!

So not do...sorry

And it's Goatman...not whatever the heck I typed!

Geesh!

#96 | Posted by Lisa at 2009-11-21 08:38 PM | Reply | Flag: BUZZED ON XANAX AND COOKING SHERRY

Polls show that Americans overwhelmingly want free
healthcare. What part of free don't the
reich-wingers understand? LOL. So utterly pathetic.

Obama and the democrats are measuring the pulse of America;
The reich-wingers are the ones flat-lining.

Did I not already declare that an African-American
was over-qualified to be President? LOL. Clearly I did!

Be Well.

#10 | Posted by donnerboy

Pretty hard to contribute when you are shut out of the room.

Repubs will put several amendments on the floor to be included and they will be turned down. Just like with the House--except for the Stupak Amendment.

They don't have the votes with the public option and they don't have the votes without the public option.

#98 | Posted by skip_wellington

There is nothing 'free' about this bill--not to anyone.

If I agree with someone, even someone as nasty to me as you are, I will say do.

#93 | Posted by Lisa

I've never been nasty to you, Lisa. It's not my fault you get hysterical when your religious bullshit is criticized.

Puhleaseeeeeeeeeeeee Murphy. The Republicans have been obstructionists through this whole shindig. I swear I miss old time Republicans cause these new fangled Republicans ain't worth a bread tie much less anything else.

Larry

#96 | Posted by Lisa at 2009-11-21 08:38 PM | Reply | Flag: BUZZED ON XANAX AND COOKING SHERRY

Posted by jerrytarkanian

LOL

What a funny guy!

More like I need to get my glasses on.

Polls show that Americans overwhelmingly want free
healthcare. What part of free don't the
reich-wingers understand? LOL. So utterly pathetic.
#98 | POSTED BY SKIP_WELLINGTON

I see your vision. An all volunteer health care industry. Try and get it.

Thinking like that would be funny if it was't so common.

cause these new fangled Republicans ain't worth a bread tie much less anything else.

Well they ARE the minority after all.

I don't think Skip Wellington is ever serious.

Congrats to the much maligned Harry Reid for putting together a Bill to get us past that hurdle.

Now, since they've proved that they'll never vote for universal health care, let's forget the naysayers and fearmongers and pass a single payer system! ;)

LOL Null. You silly boy...that doesn't bother me. I'm very strong in my faith.

We have already discussed this. If I say the sky is blue, you would say it was green.

I like Pavarroti so you say he's terrible.

Anything I say you will say the opposite.

Your name calling is what I was refering to though.

But it's all good. : )

Obama is running deficits in the trillions, driving the economy into the ground. SS and Medicare have over $70 trillion in unfunded liabilities. SS payments are now coming from general revenue. With $2 trillion income and declining, clearly the federal government is going broke - fast.
You're a moron if your mind goes blank ever time I bring up these facts. I'm telling you now. This country is sinking into the mother of all Depressions. This health care bill only accelerates the process.

#49 | POSTED BY RAY

I don't deny that a biggun' is going to happen in 2010-2011.

It would happen anyway whether we spend our selves silly or not.

"We have already discussed this. If I say the sky is blue, you would say it was green.

I like Pavarroti so you say he's terrible."

Pavarroti sucks, Lisa.

See???

LOL

I don't deny that a biggun' is going to happen in 2010-2011.

With no recovery in sight. Taxes, borrowing and regulations wrecked the market economy. The stooges in Washington have no idea what they are doing.

It would happen anyway whether we spend our selves silly or not.

Unfortunately true. I wouldn't want to have to use it.

At the White House, press secretary Robert Gibbs issued a statement saying the president was gratified by the vote, which he says "brings us one step closer to ending insurance company abuses, reining in spiraling health care costs, providing stability and security to those with health insurance, and extending quality health coverage to those who lack it."

The legislation would require most Americans to carry insurance and provide subsidies to those who couldn't afford it. Large companies could incur costs if they did not provide coverage to their workforce. The insurance industry would come under significant new regulation under the bill, which would first ease and then ban the practice of denying coverage on the basis of pre-existing medical conditions.

Congressional budget analysts put the legislation's cost at $979 billion over a decade and said it would reduce deficits over the same period while extending coverage to 94 percent of the eligible population.

At its core, the legislation would create insurance exchanges beginning in 2014 where individuals, most of them lower income and uninsured, would shop for coverage. The bill sets aside hundreds of billions of dollars in tax credits to help those earning up to 400 percent of poverty, $88,200 for a family of four.

See???

LOL

#111 | Posted by Lisa

Seriously, who likes that overwrought opera style singing? It's as bad as Celine Dion or Mariah Carey. Pavarotti sucks.

Null,

It's one thing not to like Opera but to say Pavarroti sucks is just plain silly.

He had an amazing, full tone perfect voice! A magnificent tenor!!

Retarded liberals think they just saved the elderly, the poor, the aids infected etc.

Quite the opposite, though. They've actually just driven another nail in their coffins.

Welcome to the United Socialist States of America

The corporate person is the most socialist way of running your economy outside of outright military dictatorship.

You imbeciles just buy the fallacious idea that it's not really government because you don't get to vote on what they do(see church of anhedonic roman faggotry)...

Welcome to the Brave New World.

aka the rest of the industrialized world since WW2. Nice to see Joementum bitching out though. Guess the money for Israel was more important than supporting Johnnyboy.

You mean allowing corporate execs whose bonuses, nay their very profits depend on how many people they screw out of their health care is not the best way to do things?

Imagine that!

You know I honestly don't know what the big deal is about the Government taking care of their employers(WE THE PEOPLE) I mean it's not like we are asking for riches nor fame we are just asking for health insurance coverage provided by the Federal Government. I mean the health of the populace should rank right up on the very tippy top of priorities for Government.

Larry

Republicans should be happy. Now they have something real to campaign on next year-if you think reforming health care was important,vote Democrat. If you didn't thin reforming health care was necessary, vote Republican.

Too bad rethugs!! Murphy didn't want it to happen but it did!!!

"We have already discussed this. If I say the sky is blue, you would say it was green.

I like Pavarroti so you say he's terrible.

Anything I say you will say the opposite."

I can't help but think of the old song... "Anything you can do, I can do better; I can do anything better than you." Which makes me smile.

Hi, Lisa.

+++++

And folks, it ain't over yet. But keep celebrating and/or whining, whichever pleases you. ; )

Again, I wonder if any of us really do anything except bitch on the Internet. (Oh, I'm sure some of us do. I'm willing to bet that at least three of the most vociferous posters are also activists or advocates. And a few might be lobbyists in disguise. : )

This place is full of marketing cocksuckers.

Larry,

"I mean it's not like we are asking for riches nor fame we are just asking for health insurance coverage provided by the Federal Government. I mean the health of the populace should rank right up on the very tippy top of priorities for Government."

I don't exactly agree.

Our government does not owe us "insurance coverage".

Our government should be protecting Americans from unfair business practices by insurance companies.

Also, I can't say I really agree with Public Option. I just don't think the government should be competing in the free market as a means to get insurance companies to lower costs, etc.

Not to mention, you can be sure insurance companies will figure out a way to turn it to their advantage.

What our government needs to do, in my opinion, is force insurance companies to change the way they do business.

We aren't owed anything by our government, except the opportuntity to buy into the system and be treated fairly.

Hi Prag!

I like that song. Sang it as a duet in high school with a guy in choir for a talent show.

Makes me giggle when I think of that song...we ad libbed a lot and it was funny!

And I don't see anything wrong with speaking your mind againt something one doesn't agree with.

Without passionate people in this country nothing would be accomplished!

What our government needs to do, in my opinion, is force insurance companies to change the way they do business.

------

end the corporate person.

Anything less is a waste of time.

They don't have the votes with the public option and they don't have the votes without the public option.

POSTED BY MURPHY AT 2009-11-21 08:46 PM

Something will be worked out. Your just a corporate shill for the insurance industry.

"I like that song. Sang it as a duet in high school with a guy in choir for a talent show."

Me, too, Lisa. One day, I want to do it at the variety show with the theater teacher at my school--though I can't sing and she can.

"And I don't see anything wrong with speaking your mind againt something one doesn't agree with.

Without passionate people in this country nothing would be accomplished!"

Agreed on both points. Was this a response to my crack about bitching on the Internet? I think what we do here is sometimes entertaining, sometimes informative, sometimes good for skill-building, and occasionally valuable in some tiny way (politically, I mean). But I and many of my friends do this sort of thing a lot. What does it do for the common good, or for engagement? Anything? I guess that's my point. We can have all these discussions, but if we don't act in some other way, is there a point? (That's not an attack on anyone here, just a question.)

+++++

Shawn: "end the corporate person.

Anything less is a waste of time."

COMPLETE AGREEMENT. And I don't often use caps.

+++++

"They don't have the votes with the public option and they don't have the votes without the public option.

POSTED BY MURPHY AT 2009-11-21 08:46 PM

Something will be worked out. Your just a corporate shill for the insurance industry."

Huh? Murphy is a paid shill? Really? Bizarre. This person is here an awful lot and speaks out on matters beyond the health reform bill(s).

The ultimate bill will play around the edges and I don't know why everyone is getting excited except you're going to have your rearends taxed---once again this will be mainly a tax bill for the general fund of the government.

Some people seem to forget that Obama was elected for his stance on health care. Some people seem to forget that the majority of people want health care reform. CNN Quick Vote now has a 55-45% edge for those who want the Senate to pass the health care bill.

"Some people seem to forget that Obama was elected for his stance on health care. "

Well, hardly only for that. But I hear you.

"Those who don't serve their constituents will be replaced."

Well put.

Our government does not owe us "insurance coverage".

Well, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights says we have a right to health care. Maybe we haven't signed the declaration but it's a pretty simple concept, one that fits right in with life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

And it sure looks like the only way to make sure everybody gets it is to have the government provide it or at least heavily regulate it. Obviously, if that weren't the case, we wouldn't be having this debate.

Let's pretend for a minute Medicare didn't exist. You think private insurance companies would be insuring old people? No way, they'd drop them when they get too old, or have their first stroke.

The "washboard" effect of doing the laundry in this country has come to pass. The slaves of encampment have come to pass. To pit we against each other has worked for the short term. Wait, see, what is coming.

Well, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights says we have a right to health care. Maybe we haven't signed the declaration but it's a pretty simple concept, one that fits right in with life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

#135 | Posted by snoofy at 2009-11-22 02:47 AM

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights was put forth by the United Nations, not the United States but you might be one of those who wants one world governing body for all Nations.

Either way, it says that everyone has the right to medical care and as I know it, no one can be denied medical care in the United States. Just keep in mind that it says "everyone has to right to" ... not "everyone is guaranteed"

Well, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights says we have a right to health care. Maybe we haven't signed the declaration but it's a pretty simple concept, one that fits right in with life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

(A "right to healthcare" requires "someone", an individual, is to provide it to you. Do they have rights? Should government regulate their pay? Should government regulate your pay?)

And it sure looks like the only way to make sure everybody gets it is to have the government provide it or at least heavily regulate it. Obviously, if that weren't the case, we wouldn't be having this debate.

(Government is "We the People". Government was not designed to force people to provide anything, quite the opposite in fact.)

(Government regulation is what got us where we are today. You can try to deny it but you're only living in denial with yourself and other delusional non-thinkers)

Let's pretend for a minute Medicare didn't exist. You think private insurance companies would be insuring old people? No way, they'd drop them when they get too old, or have their first stroke.

(We already have programs for the elderly and the indigent. And they're broke.

This is about government bureaucrats deciding who is worth what. It's time for you to think past yourself and just a few short years into the future, then you'll see the forest for what it really is. Do you really want your elderly Mother or Father euthanized by politicians regulating the withholding of medicines and or treatments against their will? This bill is just the tip of the iceberg. I hope you know what freezing water feels like, I hear your core temperature declines very fast.)

#135 | Posted by snoofy at 2009-11-22 02:47 AM

"(Government regulation is what got us where we are today. You can try to deny it but you're only living in denial with yourself and other delusional non-thinkers)"

The last refuge of the intellectually bereft: attacking one's opponent. And this is not the only poster guilty of it, nor are only posters who oppose any sort of government-involved healthcare guilty of it.

Government involvement in healthcare, in various degrees, has worked in other countries. The so-called health care system of the United States is not the only possible viable model.

But the debate is happening. That's what matters. If an issue is important, it should be debated. So we've gotten somewhere. This is good.

Maybe if and when the Republicans REALLY get behind Health Care reform in America we will actually get some.

#10 | Posted by donnerboy at 2009-11-21 05:02 PM | Reply

DILDOBOY pay attention, the repubs havc offered amendments and suggetions, your comments are so fucking stupid I am mad at myself for bothering to read them or reply.

"DILDOBOY pay attention, the repubs havc offered amendments and suggetions, your comments are so fucking stupid I am mad at myself for bothering to read them or reply."

Seriously, other than pro-tort reform and anti-abortion provisions, what have the Republicans offered? This is an honest question. I'm not tweaking anyone. I actually do not know and am ready to be educated. (Notice that I'm not saying the bill or bills currently in front of Congress please me. Though for the record, I am for action on health care reform, but it should be health _care_ reform, not merely health _insurance_ reform. We don't have a health care system; we have a sick care system.)

By the by, I'd really love to know why anyone thinks government bureaucrats are more likely than corporate bureaucrats to withhold treatment for the elderly. Sounds like pure scare tactics to me.

The desperation of the repugs is palatable. A month ago the rwrs were all claiming health reform will be Obama's waterloo. Then the mantra was "death panel" lies/ misinformation. Then it morphed into it'll never pass, then into it'll be ineffective and too costly. Now, it's mostly just hand wringing and pissing and moaning into the wind.

Their "party over country" pov insures that the only thing worse for them besides the abject and complete failure of the last regime, is any success of the current one.

..."party over country"...

and oh, yeah, if you got nuthin new to say, stfu...eh?

#62 | Posted by woke at 2009-11-03 04:00 PM |

141

For a month or so, each time this kind of thread came up, I asked the same question....where is the repug bill? None of the rwrs seemed to be able to direct me to one. Eventually someone did and i looked it over....it was all about ending employer healthcare and offering a $5000 tax credit for healthcare insurance that costs $13,000 on the average.

Great plan, eh?

"For a month or so, each time this kind of thread came up, I asked the same question....where is the repug bill? None of the rwrs seemed to be able to direct me to one. Eventually someone did and i looked it over....it was all about ending employer healthcare and offering a $5000 tax credit for healthcare insurance that costs $13,000 on the average."

Yeah, I said this during the campaign. If this is all they have to offer, that's no offer at all.

In fairness, the competition across state lines idea could be pretty good, but it still wouldn't knock prices down far enough. My annual health insurance, for a family of four, paid partly by me and largely by my employer, costs something like 12K. I cannot believe that price would drop precipitously merely through interstate competition and tort reform, though those things certainly could help. Though I wonder--a friend of mine told me recently that her self-employed husband secured decent insurance for something like $300 a month. I wonder how that stacks up against mine. (From what I hear, I have at least a Mercedes, maybe a Rolls Royce, of insurance plans.)

Does the current bill deal with competition at all? Interstate, I mean. If not, I wonder why. Of course, the rightwing mantra appears to be "the market will fix all." And we've seen how well deregulation worked out. Why has there been no talk about the model used in Sweden? (Obvious answer: that mantra--the Swedish model depends on heavy regulation.)

Last year I paid $79 per week= $320 per month.

Layed off after 17 years as Obama tool office. Yes, I blame Bush for losing my last job. So does the other PM at my last office.

New job offers insurance:

$240 per week with a $4,000 deductible or,
$280 per week with $2,000 deductible.

I'm paying $1,120 per month now. For me that's an $800/month increase. This for family coverage.

Sound like a problem to anyone else? Well, I'm a veteran too. Next year I will drop my full family coverage, take the VA for myself and purchase a spouse/child private insurance for less.

Let's review: I am CHOOSING government health care (VA) over private due to cost.

Any change that I can make to help me keep my home and family healthy is worth looking at.

Have a Republican here suggest an alternative for me. I'm waiting.

PS-My family and I do all we can do to stay healthy. eat right, exercise and....pray.

"In fairness, the competition across state lines idea could be pretty good, but it still wouldn't knock prices down far enough."

I think that is only going to reshuffle the deck. It might reduce prices temporarily as new insurance co's try to get into the market, but once they have, rates will go back up.

Posted by Pragmatist,

"(Oh, I'm sure some of us do. I'm willing to bet that at least three of the most vociferous posters are also activists or advocates. And a few might be lobbyists in disguise. : )"

Paranoia-
A mental disorder characterized by systematized delusions, as of grandeur or, esp., persecution, often, except in a schizophrenic state, with an otherwise relatively intact personality.

Schizophrenia-
A major mental disorder of unknown cause typically characterized by a separation between the thought process and the emotions, a distortion of reality accompanied by delusions and hallucinations, a fragmentation of the personality, motor disturbances, bizarre behavior, etc.,

Webster's New World

"I think that is only going to reshuffle the deck. It might reduce prices temporarily as new insurance co's try to get into the market, but once they have, rates will go back up."

Sorta what I was thinking. The market will bear what the market will bear. And for the last however many years, the market has been bearing increase after increase after increase. It's ugly out there, folks. I just read in the paper that in two local schools, insurance costs are going up 19% and 26% this year alone. (I'm not sure how those numbers are derived, and it seems a bit suspect, but that's the reporting. And no, these weren't articles about HC reform or politics, just local revenue/cost news. Local paper, small New England town.)

Ooooh, here comes Dirk to insult me again.

Either he didn't get that I was joking (emoticon, anyone?) or he thinks he's joking back at me. Yeah, calling me paranoid. Ha. Ha ha. Heh. Oh, I'm out of breath from all this laughing. (I should say something about the irony of Dirk suggesting that I'm crazy, but I don't really have the time for that.)

Armyvet. Your company sucks at finding insurnce. Tell the boss (the rates you pay it has to be a small company) to actuay shop for insurance.

For a family of 5 I could buy insurance for 1038 a month and thats me buying on my own not through a group.

$1,000 Deductable
20% up to $2,000 Coinsurance

Office visits
Primary:$15
Specialists:$30

Prescription drugs
Rx Deductible:$0
Generic:$10
Preferred Brand:$35

So quit lying or if not have a SERIOUS talk with the boss. Those rates means they are paying nothing for your insurance and did not negotiate at all.

I'm paying $1,120 per month now. For me that's an $800/month increase. This for family coverage.

#147 | Posted by ArmyVet at 2009-11-22 11:13 AM |

That's a lot of money. I'm guessing you didn't use anywhere near that amount in doctors visits etc.

Healthy kids are inexpensive to insure for the major stuff. Pay for doctors visits and such as you go.

I carry a hospitilization policy, Blue Cross, about 3,600 a year with a 2 million lifetime cap, I'm in my 50's, smoke, and am self employed.

Here's the kicker. I'm getting ready to dump it and carry only an accident policy. If I get cancer or any other devastating disease that would render me unproductive and or a diminished quality of life I'll let go. I'm the dems (Obama's) dream, I won't burden society with large bills I can't pay.

If they allowed insurance companies to compete across state lines and allowed the sale of cafateria plans (without government dicatating what insurers can and can't offer)we'd all be better off.

We already have programs to cover the elderly and the indigent and I don't know anyone personally that has a problem with those. We just want the government out of our business, that's all.

Army Mom did a good job of providing an overview of the government approach to health care.

For anyone who really gives a shit and isn't a blind sheep here's the link.

As usual, the repug answer to everything is:

Status Quo is good enough.

Stay the course.

That is why you lost the last election, eh boys?

That is why you lost the last election, eh boys?

Pretty much. Tat is almost always the impetus that gets the pendulum moving in the other direction. It will be the downfall of the democrats, too. Neither party is quick enough on their feet to stop it.

Republicans should try to help craft the new bill instead of block it. There has to be a way to make coverage affordable for all Americans while providing coverage to those with pre-existing conditions.

"Healthy kids are inexpensive to insure for the major stuff. Pay for doctors visits and such as you go. "

Do you have children? It's much less pricey for me to pay for my excellent insurance than to pay as I go. My children are pretty healthy, but medicines are expensive. And we paid NOTHING for neonatal and natal costs except for circumcision. (In fairness, you did say "major stuff.")

And I don't think Obama or the Dems, in any monolithic sense, want chronically ill people to commit suicide in large numbers. Though I do have great respect for those who choose not to torture themselves or their families by holding on unnecessarily.

+++++

And *urk* I agree with Jackass. The Republicans could have tried harder to find their way to common ground. And maybe the Dems would even have listened. : )

But Washboard, even though I think we have serious and fundamental worldview disagreements (or maybe because?), thanks for the link. If it weren't 25 pages long, I'd read it right now. Gotta make lunch for the kids. I'll try to remember to look at it later. Of course, the best thing to do, the least sheep-minded, would be to read the actual bill--you know, so one can get it without spin of one's favorite blogger or pundit....

Of course, the best thing to do, the least sheep-minded, would be to read the actual bill--you know, so one can get it without spin of one's favorite blogger or pundit....

#159 | Posted by pragmatist at 2009-11-22 01:02 PM

Suggest your representatives and senators to do the same.

Yes, I've got 2 kids. Healthy kids are inexpensive to insure for the major stuff.

I'm tired of people buying more home, car, plasma tv, computer, etc.etc. and then expecting me, who does none of that to pick up their tab for health care because they don't think it's their responsibility.

We already have programs for the elderly and the indigent.

160

Which is why 45 million have no healthcare, including 9 million children.....most of them the WORKING poor.

GOP=Stay the course/status quo is good enough.

They got theirs, screw the rest of Americans....eh?

I'm tired of people buying more home, car, plasma tv, computer, etc.etc. and then expecting me, who does none of that to pick up their tab for health care because they don't think it's their responsibility.

I'm tired of people using this lame talking point.

Come by my tiny condo, check out my 2 cars the newest 10 years old, I'll even invite you in to watch my 25" TV (hey it's color). However I'm sure the fact that my insurance cost darn near what my house payment does has nothin to do with my lack of new car enough room or tiny TV (actualy the tiny TV would not change even if I made 3x my current income)

This is just a reminder for those that say the Republicans are just trying to block health care reform. I don't think any republican said that they didn't want health care reform and in fact, they all said we need it but we need reform, not a completely new health care system.

Just remember how well the stimulus worked. It worked so well that the dem's are scratching their way to a second stimulus.

Republicans had the same input into the stimulus as they do the health care reform bill. NONE, but the Republicans are still blamed for trying to block it when they are not even needed to pass it.

Maybe if the Republicans could have blocked the stimulus, we wouldn't have wasted so much tax payer money.

The Democrats don't want Republican input into the bill, they only want the Republicans to vote on a democratic only bill. The republicans have put forth many admindments and ideas but all the democrats want to do is offer a public options and make sure the rich pay for everything.

Someone mentioned earlier that the tax payers are the employees of the government. Typical thinking for someone who believes that they government should take care of them like a baby. WE are the employeers of the government. The government works for the tax payer and not the other way around. I know it's hard to see that since government believes that they do rule the people, completely.

I'm up for removing party names (democrats and republicans) and just put people in office who we believe will do the best job. We all know that everything that they say during an election are lies anyway. I believe all politicians are crooks

Washboard proves how stupid he is once again.

"Suggest your representatives and senators to do the same."

Yep. Have you read my other points about more of us doing more than coming to DR and whining?

"Yes, I've got 2 kids. Healthy kids are inexpensive to insure for the major stuff."

So you know something I don't. That's cool. I insure my whole family with my plan, not just the kids. Gimme some links to info, and I'll check it out. Think I can get it for less than $140 a month, plus care for me and my wife?

"I'm tired of people buying more home, car, plasma tv, computer, etc.etc. and then expecting me, who does none of that to pick up their tab for health care because they don't think it's their responsibility."

What Tao said. Really, how many people who support health care reform are in this boat? I'm not. We live a pretty frugal lifestyle here: small house, low/no car payments, no plasma TV (though they are cool), oooold computer... Seems pretty damned ridiculous of you to assume any such thing. If you're really talking about those who take advantage of welfare, yep, some of them are like that, but not all. Your brush is at least 5 inches wide.

"We already have programs for the elderly and the indigent."

And that is your motif in this discussion, eh? As if that settles all.

GOP=Stay the course/status quo is good enough.

They got theirs, screw the rest of Americans....eh?

#161 | Posted by woke at 2009-11-22 01:15 PM

and oh, yeah, if you got nuthin new to say, stfu...eh?

#62 | Posted by woke at 2009-11-03 04:00 PM |

"Someone mentioned earlier that the tax payers are the employees of the government. "

Really? Hm. Larry said this:

" I honestly don't know what the big deal is about the Government taking care of their employers(WE THE PEOPLE) "

Seems that you and he agree on something. But you misread what he said.

"Good advice. Take it, hypocrite, eh? LOL"

I hear ya, Goatman. But Washboard is a broken record, so maybe Woke has a point.

I'm tired of people using this lame talking point.

Come by my tiny condo, check out my 2 cars the newest 10 years old, I'll even invite you in to watch my 25" TV (hey it's color). However I'm sure the fact that my insurance cost darn near what my house payment does has nothin to do with my lack of new car enough room or tiny TV (actualy the tiny TV would not change even if I made 3x my current income)

#162 | Posted by TaoWarrior at 2009-11-22 01:22 PM | Reply |

If you are not one of those people who the poster posted about then why are you replying?

I don't think anyone wants to shut out people who need it. To me, the people who do not need it are those who live outside of their means and that is who the poster was referring to. People take no responsibility for themselves but think they deserve everything.

People with multiple credit cards with thousand dollar balances. People with multiple car notes along with other loan notes that eat up most of their pay check. It's called living beyond your means and I would expect that over half of the people do that. Maybe we would be better off if we couldn't get anything on credit.

TMan Most people would be renters riding the bus.

Pragmatist, you are correct in that fact that I did misread employer as employee. My mistake.

"If you are not one of those people who the poster posted about then why are you replying?"

Because the poster is painting with an extremely broad brush. Because the poster assumes that the system is only for those people? Because the poster is reiterating trite arguments based in stereotype and canard?

Because it pisses some of us off to be lumped into some bullshit category? Because it pisses some of us off when anyone uses such bullshit categories?

I agree that those people are irresponsible, but if anyone is seriously making the argument that the majority of folks who need the system to be fixed number among those irreponsible people, then, well, I need some evidence of that.

"Pragmatist, you are correct in that fact that I did misread employer as employee. My mistake."

Good accepting of responsibility. The problem is, it rather undermined your point in the rest of that paragraph.

TMan Most people would be renters riding the bus.

#170 | Posted by jackass at 2009-11-22 01:37 PM

It would have stopped the problem with the economic mess that we are currently in.

"Pragmatist, you are correct in that fact that I did misread employer as employee. My mistake."

Good accepting of responsibility. The problem is, it rather undermined your point in the rest of that paragraph.

#173 | Posted by pragmatist at 2009-11-22 01:43 PM

It did for that single paragraph since that was all that was in that paragraph (4 sentences)but not for the entire post. If it did for the entire post, please point it out.

I agree that those people are irresponsible, but if anyone is seriously making the argument that the majority of folks who need the system to be fixed number among those irreponsible people, then, well, I need some evidence of that.

#172 | Posted by pragmatist at 2009-11-22 01:42 PM

Who are the majority of responsible people whom the current system does not support? I'm no long sure anymore and couldn't understand it with the 2000 page bills. It would be hard to get me to believe that congress is only focusing on those people.

T MAN

Honestly I am not sure I support the bill as it stands now myself. However Prag is right I am responding because while he was not addressing me he was lumping me in with those addressed and yes it does piss me off.

I do live past my means but not because I spend stupid money I live past my means because I have low income. However if I did not have to spend 6-8k a year on health care I would be well within my budget.

Go figure. However I do not qualify for any of the programs which washboard thinks are the answer to all the problems.

There is a percentage of society that will Always be helpless, but making that percentage larger intentionally is morally wrong. It's a crime against everyone. From the genuinely helpless, to the real producers and everyone in between. If the government really wanted to help people teaching them to manage whatever money they make would be a good start. I'll never take the education system in this country seriously until they start teaching about money and self reliance. Teach one generation how to manage what they make, stay on a budget and not go into debt for STUPID STUFF and we would be back on top as a nation in just a few years.

Stir,

Try having wages match inflation and maybe people wouldn't have to take on debt to feed their families. You do know that inflation has risen while wages have fallen lately right?

TAOWARRIOR.. Social programs require people to be fully dependant on the government in order to qualify for them.

There are no incentives for people dependant on the government to become independant just like there are no incentives in these health care bills for people to be more resonsible for themselves and their health.

Currently, no one can be denied medical attention at any emergency room but people do need more than that. We also have free clinics but that is still not good enough for some people. Still, you need healthy people to pay into the system in order for insurance companies to be able to afford to pay out for those who are not healthy.

General Practitioners are just not what they used to be. I'm not that old but I still remember that our family doctor did just about everything. We hardly ever had to go somewhere else in order to meet our medical needs. Now a days, everything is a specialist and doctors move you around like a package from one specialist to another and each one charges more than the last.

There were some valid points that were brought up, which I don't think they will ever pass a democratic congress: Portability, across state purchasing, tort reform, and some incentives to being healthy.

My car insurance company offers discounts for a clean driving record, no wrecks, and various other things. My health insurance should be the same way.

"Who are the majority of responsible people whom the current system does not support? I'm no long sure anymore and couldn't understand it with the 2000 page bills. It would be hard to get me to believe that congress is only focusing on those people."

And it would be hard to get me to believe that Congress is focusing only on the irresponsible. But I'm not the one who made an assertion--so I'm not responsible for proving it.

+++++

"I'll never take the education system in this country seriously until they start teaching about money and self reliance. Teach one generation how to manage what they make, stay on a budget and not go into debt for STUPID STUFF and we would be back on top as a nation in just a few years."

Are you active in education? Are you lobbying your local district and your state and the feds?

And since when is it the school system's responsibility to teach self-reliance? That's pretty fucking hard when large numbers of children want to be spoon-fed. Oops, dangerously close to broad brush there. But really, parents and communities should be part of teaching self-reliance. It's not as if a kid suddenly throws off all his or her parental training upon entering a school. I can do a lot with a kid (or to a kid, if you want to assume I'm a master of the negative impact) but I am only with a kid 85 minutes per day, and the school is only "in control of" (HA) a kid for 6.5 hours a day. What's happening for the other 17.5?

And btw, most schools I know of do teach money matters now. Some sort of life skills class is often a graduation requirement. But come on, even though you knew better (well, I did), how many stupid mistakes did you make when you were a teen and in your 20s? No matter that your parents and your school may have taught you otherwise (mine did, and I was a product of the public schools).

+++++

Never mind your weird assumption about making people helpless deliberately. Through health care? Yeah, all those people in all those other countries are helpless. Go ahead, use the phrase, you know you want to: Nanny State. Feh.

TMAN is now going to tell us what the repug solution is.

TARP, eh?

Tell us, did anyone get a job out of that? Did anyone make those that received it accountable or put contingencies on the money?

Try reading this letter to Obama by Paul Krugman, which does a good job of describing how FDR used America's credit to create jobs and help working Americans weather the economic storm created by the deregulation/corporations above people regime that preceeded the last depression. It also details what parts of the New Deal worked and what didn't and why, and how Obama can do better by learning from those mistakes, among which included FDR not going far enough because he listened to the debt fearing naysayers and corporate entities talk him into backing down on some of the programs.

"TAOWARRIOR.. Social programs require people to be fully dependant on the government in order to qualify for them. "

Canard!

Um, WIC. Food stamps. Pell grants. You can be employed and still qualify for all of these things. Is this deliberate ignorance or deliberate stereotyping and demeaning of others?

Not only that Pragmatist, but it's instructive to point out that a dem potus with a repug congress REFORMED welfare on individuals (not corporations that created the victims rwrs want to blame) Welfare to Work......tort reform, bankruptcy reform.....but only on individuals, not corporations....yet, it's supposed to be a govt of, by and for the people, eh?

Ok, Ok, he was a DINO, not a dem...LOL.

TAOWARRIOR... I understand the inflation part but I do know that the company I work for had to raise prices for the goods we sell in order to pay for the increases in minimum wage that was dictated by the government. While I sympathies with your situation, sometimes's it two fold.

These are entry level positions for people who are just entering the workforce with no skill sets, ages 16+. We do pay more for those who earn it and we do pay well for professional level positions.

Most salaries are simular to home prices. They go off of the current market.

I will say that without going to college, I wouldn't be making what I make now. I wouldn't be able to negotiate wages like I do now.

I come from a family of sharecroppers and while I don't know personally of the hard times they suffered through, I can see it in my fathers attitude and work ethic which did get instilled into me.

I've been there. Worked two jobs and built a business on the side until I didn't need the two jobs. The bottom line is, if you can't make ends meet, you have to force them to. You start with cutting the bills. I went for a year with no TV, Internet or home phone. Sometimes you have to make decisions that you know are right, even though it sucks to make them. You aren't doing anything noble by going into debt for bull shit. I know guys that make more than me that go into debt every year for Christmas presents. If you don't know how to manage your money it doesn't matter how much you make.

Pragmatist.. Don't make me out to be an idiot like you do others on here. I never said anything about being employeed versus unemployeed.

I know about WIC and yes, there is a fine line to income versus eligibility where making $10 dollars over their limit will you get NOTHING! My sister was on WIC so I know that program well. Food stamps are the same way. Maybe you have never been to any southern states where people live on food stamps and welfare their entire life. The Pell Grant is similar to the two above as it has to meet income requirements. I've worked at a finacial aid office while in college and I've see some bending of the rules on the pell grants.

"TAOWARRIOR.. Social programs require people to be fully dependant on the government in order to qualify for them. "

Canard!

Um, WIC. Food stamps. Pell grants. You can be employed and still qualify for all of these things. Is this deliberate ignorance or deliberate stereotyping and demeaning of others?

#183 | Posted by pragmatist at 2009-11-22 02:58 PM

Pragmatist.. Don't make me out to be an idiot like you do others on here. I never said anything about being employeed versus unemployeed.

I know about WIC and yes, there is a fine line to income versus eligibility where making $10 dollars over their limit will you get NOTHING! My sister was on WIC so I know that program well. Food stamps are the same way. Maybe you have never been to any southern states where people live on food stamps and welfare their entire life. The Pell Grant is similar to the two above as it has to meet income requirements. I've worked at a finacial aid office while in college and I've see some bending of the rules on the pell grants.

Tell us, did anyone get a job out of that? Did anyone make those that received it accountable or put contingencies on the money?

Try reading this letter to Obama by Paul Krugman, which does a good job of describing how FDR used America's credit to create jobs and help working Americans weather the economic storm created by the deregulation/corporations above people regime that preceeded the last depression. It also details what parts of the New Deal worked and what didn't and why, and how Obama can do better by learning from those mistakes, among which included FDR not going far enough because he listened to the debt fearing naysayers and corporate entities talk him into backing down on some of the programs.

www.rollingstone.com

#182 | Posted by woke at 2009-11-22 02:56 PM

What is your point. The post didn't make much sense to me other than the fact you are trying to point out how the stimulus could have worked but not the point where the US took out a 787 billion dollar loan and spent 12% in the first year to only create a handful of government jobs.

How many people do you know who take out thousand dollar loans only to use 12% of it but to pay interest on 100% of it? Maybe we did need a stimulus but if we do, spend all 787 billion right away or borrow what you need, when you need and don't ask for a second stimulus by the end of the first year after passing the 787 billion dollar stimulus

TMan Most people would be renters riding the bus.

#170 | Posted by jackass at 2009-11-22 01:37 PM

Dumbass, if you have a mortgage you're a renter. In fact you're a renter even if you delude yourself to believe you're an owner. Try not paying your property taxes and see how far your ownership goes.

I stand by my statements.

Buying more home than you can afford and more car than you can afford is self evident when it comes time for repairs and you have to get a second mortgage in order to make them.

You f----n dumbasses are amazing.

Perpetual adolesceents.

Grow up.

"Ooooh, here comes Dirk to insult me again."
Posted by Pragmatist #151

To whom it may concern,

Anyone that doubts that Pragmatist isn't the intellectual that he claims to be should be sharply condemmed. The evidence of his monumental genius is apparent in the way he corrects everyone. If you or anyone else doubts for even a moment that he isn't the most intelligent of souls on the DR just observe his Username. It is that Username which defines him as a person, self appointed so that none on the DR could possibly mistake his identity; right there on display so that everyone may bear witness to the yearning of his true nature:)

Sincerely,
Dirk

PS. On a separate note does anyone else have those guys in their town that drive around in little red sports cars attempting to make up for other deficiencies?

PS. On a separate note does anyone else have those guys in their town that drive around in little red sports cars attempting to make up for other deficiencies?

#192 | Posted by Dirk

What, the deficiency of not being able to afford a little red sports car? Maybe their just doing it to piss you off Dirk.

Try having wages match inflation and maybe people wouldn't have to take on debt to feed their families. You do know that inflation has risen while wages have fallen lately right?

#179 | Posted by TaoWarrior at 2009-11-22 02:50 PM

Inflation occurs because our economy is based on debt, teaching people to spend 3/4's of their lives chasing 7 percent buying stuff that isn't necessary to the essentials of life.

This country is broke and an extreme debtor nation. That's not wealth it's poverty.

Washboard... there is a difference between renters and paying a mortgage which a good example is the housing crisis. The housing crisis didn't happen because rents stopped paying their rent and got evicted.

It takes a substancial initial investment in purchasing a home.

However, as you stated, many people purchased more home than they could actually afford and I have a cousin that is a good example of that. The home was 250,000. The bank approved 300,000. They took all 300,000 and ended up going bankrupt when one of them lost their job because they were working for the corporate lending industry. You would think that with their jobs, they would have understood the risk but I guess not. Now they are renters.

Dumbass, if you have a mortgage you're a renter. In fact you're a renter even if you delude yourself to believe you're an owner. Try not paying your property taxes and see how far your ownership goes.
I stand by my statements.
Buying more home than you can afford and more car than you can afford is self evident when it comes time for repairs and you have to get a second mortgage in order to make them.
You f----n dumbasses are amazing.
Perpetual adolesceents.
Grow up.
#191 | POSTED BY WASHBOARD

People purchasing a home aren't renters because they gain equity and after 30 years they own the home which can be sold. Can't gain equity paying rent on an apt.

... and after 30 years they own the home ...

Actually, smart buyers get a 15 year or less mortgage. They are not that much more and you pay half the interest over the life of the loan

Actually, smart buyers get a 15 year or less mortgage. They are not that much more and you pay half the interest over the life of the loan

#197 | Posted by goatman at 2009-11-22 04:04 PM

I pay every two weeks instead of once a month which makes a big difference in total interest over the life of the loan

People purchasing a home aren't renters because they gain equity and after 30 years they own the home which can be sold. Can't gain equity paying rent on an apt.

#196 | Posted by jackass at 2009-11-22 04:02 PM

You don't "own it" until it's paid off, dumbass. Don't believe me? Ask all the supposed poor folk ya'll cry out for in foreclosure.

Too many people in this perpetual adolescent society being created aren't disciplined enough to own and or manage anything. My instincts tell me you're deeply rooted in that group, Dumbass.

You'll always be poor and likely never understand why.

F----n willing victim.

I pay every two weeks instead of once a month which makes a big difference in total interest over the life of the loan

You are absolutely correct. That is a very smart move. I wish I had been doing it all these years.

190

TMAN

You didn't understand my post?

It said YOU were gonna explain what the republican plan to save the economy is......you know, the party that fkd it up......

Just projecting failure and fear of debt on Obama's plan isn't good enough....

What would you do?

The GOP doesn't get it. This should trouble them:

APPROVE/DISAPPROVE/NOT SURE/CHANGE FROM LAST WEEK

PELOSI:
40 (39) 51 (52) 9 (9) 2
REID:
32 (32) 58 (57) 10 (11) -1
McCONNELL:
14 (15) 68 (67) 18 (18) -2
BOEHNER:
13 (14) 65 (65) 22 (21) -1

CONGRESSIONAL DEMS: 42 (41) 53 (52) 5 (7) 0
CONGRESSIONAL GOPS: 13 (14) 71 (71) 16 (15) -1

DEMOCRATIC PARTY: 44 (43) 50 (49) 6 (8) 0
REPUBLICAN PARTY: 23 (22) 67 (67) 10 (11) 1

I am just wondering if all you righties who are predicting gloom and doom will eat your frigging words when the reform works. Well will you?

#86 | Posted by JimmyWallback
--------------------------
You gotta be kidding me? Yeah we'll have reform in 2012 AFTER the liberal messiah is shown the door. His stimulus was a complete utter failure. He's done nothing to create jobs but everything to make sure that they go away and NEVER come back. He's going about this ass backwards. First fix the economy then figure out taxes and health care reform. Let's face it, if the American people can't afford to eat then how in the hell are they going to pay for health care?

Lonnie

"Pragmatist.. Don't make me out to be an idiot like you do others on here. I never said anything about being employeed versus unemployeed. "

Funny as hell. First, make you out to be an idiot? If it's that easy... Oh, never mind.

Seriously, it sure sounded as if you did: What does "fully dependent on gov't" mean? Wouldn't that mean unemployed? If you meant something else, I sure didn't get it.

"...Maybe you have never been to any southern states where people live on food stamps and welfare their entire life."

Nope, I've lived in the Northeast all my life, and I've known people who live on food stamps and exist on welfare their entire LIVES. I just was pointing out that it's not everyone. Your broad brush, not mine.

"The Pell Grant is similar to the two above as it has to meet income requirements. I've worked at a finacial aid office while in college and I've see some bending of the rules on the pell grants."

So? Again, what you wrote sounded to me as if you were saying that everyone on these programs is just on the programs. Let's see: "Social programs require people to be fully dependant on the government in order to qualify for them. "

If I'm misreading you, just clarify. If I meant to make you sound like an idiot, I could go much further than I did. My reaction was honest. Is your presentation honest?

Nope, I've lived in the Northeast all my life, and I've known people who live on food stamps and exist on welfare their entire LIVES. I just was pointing out that it's not everyone. Your broad brush, not mine.

(No, it's not everyone but it's a large group none the less.)

For your edification.

"What, the deficiency of not being able to afford a little red sports car? Maybe their just doing it to piss you off Dirk."

Now _that_ was funny.

I love it that the two people today who think I demean others are people who I called "bullshit" on. Funny that any number of other people I've out and out yelled at, insulted directly, etc., just throw it back and move on. I remain amused.

+++++

"You are absolutely correct. That is a very smart move. I wish I had been doing it all these years."

Indeed. It's my understanding (see, Dirk, I don't know it all) that that's a great move--paying every two weeks--if you expect to live in the home for the full term of the loan. If you are expecting 5 to 10 years, I understand that it doesn't offer the same advantages. I haven't tried to do the math.

"(No, it's not everyone but it's a large group none the less.)"

I don't argue that, Wash. There is such a thing as generational poverty, no doubt. I've lived in it, or near it, much of my life. And there is a culture of self-entitlement. Both these things contribute to making the use of that broad brush easy.

By the way, it's also true that it's not as simple as "Hey, just change!" Kind of like people who grow up rich--it's not easy for them to see poverty, or the challenges of the poor.

People are a strange, mixed-up bunch. I don't claim to have it all figured out. Just to try to see more sides than my own, and to get past my easy biases. It's challenging.

*****Pragmatist "conspiracy theory" asserts itself in the form of humor*****

Oh, I wasn't intimating troll; I was suggesting that he wasn't born last night, and that maybe, just maybe, he is not who he seems... (cue spooky music)
Posted by pragmatist at 2009-11-15 10:20 PM

*****Pragmatist "conspiracy theory" asserts itself,. again in the form of humor*****

(Oh, I'm sure some of us do. I'm willing to bet that at least three of the most vociferous posters are also activists or advocates. And a few might be lobbyists in disguise. : )
Posted by pragmatist at 2009-11-21 10:23 PM | Reply

*****Pragmatist chastising another poster for having an unfounded assertion*****

"But I'm not the one who made an assertion--so I'm not responsible for proving it."
#181 | Posted by pragmatist at 2009-11-22 02:56 PM

*****Pragmatist getting defensive about being called out on his ridiculous assertion*****

Ooooh, here comes Dirk to insult me again.
Either he didn't get that I was joking (emoticon, anyone?) or he thinks he's joking back at me. Yeah, calling me paranoid. Ha. Ha ha. Heh. Oh, I'm out of breath from all this laughing. (I should say something about the irony of Dirk suggesting that I'm crazy, but I don't really have the time for that.)
#151 | Posted by pragmatist at 2009-11-22 11:50 AM

*****A clarification for Pragmatist*****

Defensive as in "A condition of resisting or being ready to resist attack or danger" Webster's New World

Recently my wife told me a story.

Doesn't have a lot to do with this thread, but certainly timely if nothing else.

We have 1 car since she doesn't drive. Sometimes she uses public transportation.

She said the bus she rides travels through neighborhoods and she noticed something strange one morning.

She noticed everywhere she rode, the lights were on in homes and apartments.

Except, when she rode past a large multi-building complex of subsidized housing. She said very few lights were on.

Who do we have to thank for that?

Liberals for subsidizing that lifestyle, or an economic system that has created a permanent underclass?

Ok...back to debating health insurance and who gets to be healthy.

The dimmed lights is just a cultural thing among many inner city blacks. Not negative or positive just cultural.

"are just a cultural thing"

Your slipping Pragmatist!:)

Pragmatist.. Your attempt to take my post out of context by adding your own interpretation to what I wrote and making to be your own.

I mentioned that social programs require people to be fully dependant on the government and you imediately infer that I'm saying everyone who is unemployeed is dependant on the government.

I then explained it better but either you choose not to read it or you would rather not.

Please feel free to try to make me out to be an idiot. It will be pretty typical of how you operate on these forums towards those who do not have the same beliefs as yourself.

I assume you work in education as you are sure to make people fully aware when they type something that you can attack which is usually based on symantics. I guess I could have said that "most" or "most all" social programs require people to be fully dependant on the goverment but I didn't say "ALL" social programs.

So instead of asking which social programs I was referring to, you immediately attacked it saying it was deliberate ignorance or deliberate sterotyping based solely on employment status.

Do you really want your elderly Mother or Father euthanized by politicians regulating the withholding of medicines and or treatments against their will?

So you think you're better off today, when private insurance executives decide who to euthanize?

Why do you have such an overwhelming mistrust of government? To me you seem irrational.

Do you trust the military and police? How about firemen, librarians, and air traffic controllers?

"The rich alone use imported articles, and on these alone the
whole taxes of the General Government are levied... Our revenues
liberated by the discharge of the public debt, and its surplus
applied to canals, roads, schools, etc., the farmer will see
his government supported, his children educated, and the face of
his country made a paradise by the contributions of the rich
alone, without his being called on to spend a cent from his
earnings." --Thomas Jefferson to Thaddeus Kosciusko, 1811.

"The rich alone use imported articles"???

TMAN
You didn't understand my post?

It said YOU were gonna explain what the republican plan to save the economy is......you know, the party that fkd it up......

Just projecting failure and fear of debt on Obama's plan isn't good enough....

What would you do?
#201 | POSTED BY WOKE AT 2009-11-22 04:28 PM

(crickets chirping)

Indeed. It's my understanding (see, Dirk, I don't know it all) that that's a great move--paying every two weeks--if you expect to live in the home for the full term of the loan. If you are expecting 5 to 10 years, I understand that it doesn't offer the same advantages. I haven't tried to do the math.

#206 | Posted by pragmatist at 2009-11-22 05:14 PM

It looks like it's a good idea no matter how long you expect to live in your home as it reduces your principle each year starting at year 1

TMAN
You didn't understand my post?

It said YOU were gonna explain what the republican plan to save the economy is......you know, the party that fkd it up......

Just projecting failure and fear of debt on Obama's plan isn't good enough....

What would you do?
#201 | POSTED BY WOKE AT 2009-11-22 04:28 PM

(crickets chirping)

#216 | Posted by woke

Where did I ever say that I would explain the republican plan to save the economy? Are you delirious? Your post seem to assume that I can read your mind

I don't have to project fear of debt on Obama's stimulus package. It's pretty evident when you look at what it's accomplished so far or should I say, what it hasn't accomplished.

Now, are you asking how I would have approached the economic stimulus bill or the health care reform bill?

STFU, Woke.

"Your slipping Pragmatist!:)"

Ah, he smiles. Thank God. I was beginning to think you were just cranky and oh-so-serious all the time.

+++++

"I mentioned that social programs require people to be fully dependant on the government and you imediately infer that I'm saying everyone who is unemployeed is dependant on the government."

No, I inferred that you meant "fully dependent" as "not employed," or at least all expenses paid by the government. (You know, like if I'm a dependent of my parents, they pay my way.) That's not the same thing at all. At least, that's where I started.

"I then explained it better but either you choose not to read it or you would rather not."

If you explained it, I missed it. I can admit that possibility. But you never went back to the phrase "fully dependent." Or if you did, I missed it.

I'm just going to ignore all the blather about making others feel like, or out to be, idiots. Why bother? You will read me as you will read me. (If you think I attack people who don't agree with me, as in that's my general behavior, you're obviously not paying attention. I engage peacefully and rationally with people who hold different positions all the time. But you've formed your opinion.)

"I assume you work in education"

You don't have to assume. I talk about it all the time. If you have read me enough to exactly know my modes and behaviors, you should know that.

" as you are sure to make people fully aware when they type something that you can attack which is usually based on symantics."

Your semantics is another person's _communication._ Unless someone's being an asshole or I have a teasing relationship with that person (Afk), I don't generally pick on spelling and grammar unless the writer is failing in communicating a point.

" I guess I could have said that "most" or "most all" social programs require people to be fully dependant on the goverment but I didn't say "ALL" social programs."

All is implied. But it's not the social programs that bothered me or caused me to ask or infer. It was "fully dependent."

"So instead of asking which social programs I was referring to, you immediately attacked it saying it was deliberate ignorance or deliberate sterotyping based solely on employment status."

Given no other info, it felt appropriate to me. If someone is going to criticize a huge swath of government activity, doesn't it behoove the critic to be clear and specific, and leave little room for interpretation or inference on the part of the audience? I think it does. Hell, if I walked around whining about rightwingers this and Republicans that, I would be roundly chastised, possibly by you, and deservedly so. I try very hard not to do that.

Okay, so I'll bite. What social programs?

If you want to back up and have a rational talk with me, and not toss barbs around, I'll do my level best to do the same. If not, we can just
ignore each other.

Either one works for me.

Welcome back, wis!

Thanks for the calculator, T.

And Wis, _there_ you are! I was just wondering over on the Nooner.

We were threatened by Iraq, Dirk?

Kindly tell us how.

Man, you swallowed the Cheneyaid for sure.

Okay, so I'll bite. What social programs?

#220 | Posted by pragmatist at 2009-11-22 07:54 PM

Let's start with this one. Unemployment insurance. If you're a teacher and there aren't any teaching jobs available why should you be permitted to sit on your ass until there is when there are multitudes of other jobs available.

The arrogance that people think society should exist to accomadate them really pisses me off.

Let them work in a convienent store or any other job that is available.

You're an unemloyed engineer that can't find work in your field. Though shit, work what's avaialable.

I'm so sick of the term "Underemployed". There is no such thing. The arrogance of people that think they're too good to do whatever it takes to make ends meet and a government that permits their arrogance through social programs that don't require them to work what's available is beyond my comprehension.

Let's go with this one. Workmans compensation. The fraud in that program is astounding. It was designed for people who were actually hurt on the job and was to provide a means for them to pay their expenses while healing up. I don't know anyone that would have a problem with that, however, I'd bet almost everyone knows someone who has scammed or is scamming that system.

I pay 15.7 percent in workmans comp for every employee.

Let's talk about the food stamp / link card scammers.

You can own a home and still get food assistance. WTF

Washboard with your abhorrent spelling it would seem working the checkout line at a grocery store would be above your capabilities. I have a masters degree, while I would work as a janitor as a last resort I would rather take unemployment for a month until I could find a job in my field.

Washboard with your abhorrent spelling it would seem working the checkout line at a grocery store would be above your capabilities.

JFK was a notoriously bad speller, too. I guess he really fucked up running for president instead of "paper or plastic", huh, ratsa? Your logic, not mine.

Washboard with your abhorrent spelling it would seem working the checkout line at a grocery store would be above your capabilities. I have a masters degree, while I would work as a janitor as a last resort I would rather take unemployment for a month until I could find a job in my field.

#228 | Posted by jackass at 2009-11-22 08:27 PM

If you've got a masters degree and you didn't save enough money to get by for a month you're a dumbass, dumbass. And you're also a huge f----n leach.

My guess is I'll go my entire life and never need your supposed skill set. You on the other hand need mine daily.

Get a clue. FO, dumbass.

Washboard what are you a cook? Janitor? Driver? Clothes washer?

Washboard what are you a cook? Janitor? Driver? Clothes washer?

#231 | Posted by jackass at 2009-11-22 08:34 PM | Reply

I love it. An arrogant dumbass and doesn't have a clue that he's such. Ever ask yourself why you have to pick up hookers, scum?

I hope your employees unionize washboard. That way you'll be screwed if you ever try to fire an employee.

I pick up hookers because I am a generous man that likes to help women down on their luck. I've been know to throw in an extra sawbuck around the holidays.

I hope your employees unionize washboard. That way you'll be screwed if you ever try to fire an employee.

#233 | Posted by jackass at 2009-11-22 08:37 PM

When my employees try to unionize they'll earn less than they do now and won't get anywhere near the overtime they persently do.

Won't happen. Not everyone's angry at the world, dumbass.

I'd be angry if you were my boss washboard. I'd be asking what I ever did to have a boss that has a double digit IQ.

Do you even give your workers benefits?

I'd be angry if you were my boss washboard. I'd be asking what I ever did to have a boss that has a double digit IQ.

Do you even give your workers benefits?

#236 | Posted by jackass at 2009-11-22 08:42 PM

I don't hire dumbasses like yourself. I've got years of experience interviewing, you'd never cut it.

Washboard: T_Man was the person I was engaged in that argument with. And not one of your examples addresses the "fully dependent" that was at the core of my disagreement with said poster.

And btw, I'm not even sure that teachers are eligible for unemployment insurance. From what I hear, they're not in my state. But I didn't check that myself. I collected in my previous life, and it was a good thing--a fine stopgap measure. I also used Workers' Comp to pay my medical bills once. There's fraud and bullshit everywhere. Does that mean the baby goes with the bathwater?

Washboard,

I think you've spent a little too much time in the ivory tower.

The idea that people can just go right out and find jobs doing anything to make money is sort of 80's.

Things have really tightened up since then.

btw...you pay that much for WC for even people in the offices? Sure you aren't exaggerating.

You might want to work on some safety training in your company if you're having a lot of claims.

Where did I ever say that I would explain the republican plan to save the economy?

#218 | POSTED BY T_MAN AT 2009-11-22 07:16 PM

Oh, I thought maybe you had some answers since you seem so convinced that Obama is responsible for an even bigger mess than he inherited. I thought maybe YOU actually had something besides criticism.

And sorry, I mistook you for someone who might want to learn something, (hence my link to Krugman, instead of merely another rw partisan with their fingers in their ears, yelling "NO!"

My bad.

Washboard,

I think you've spent a little too much time in the ivory tower.

The idea that people can just go right out and find jobs doing anything to make money is sort of 80's.

Things have really tightened up since then.

btw...you pay that much for WC for even people in the offices? Sure you aren't exaggerating.

You might want to work on some safety training in your company if you're having a lot of claims.

#239 | Posted by electricjungle at 2009-11-22 09:38 PM

I came from the trenches and live in the trenches. No Ivory tower here. There isn't a job in my company I haven't done and can't still do.

Office personel are 3 to 5 percent. Floor personel are 6 to 8. 15.7 percent is for the people that pay the bills, not the overhead. No, I'm not exaggerating.

Oh, I thought maybe you had some answers since you seem so convinced that Obama is responsible for an even bigger mess than he inherited. I thought maybe YOU actually had something besides criticism.

And sorry, I mistook you for someone who might want to learn something, (hence my link to Krugman, instead of merely another rw partisan with their fingers in their ears, yelling "NO!"

My bad.

#240 | Posted by woke at 2009-11-22 09:49 PM

I assume that you didn't take the time to read the article yourself did you? If you did, you would know that there is only one thing that Krugman said to do, that Obama actually did which didn't help any way.

Krugman suggested that Obama nationalize the banks to get credit flowing again but banks are still not lending money and many businesses are suffering from it.

Krugman also suggested a tax cut which Obama has not done

Krugman also said that the government would have to spend 800 billion a year to achieve full economic recovery. Obama has spent 12% of the 786 billion so thats another thing Obama didn't do.

So.... It seems as though YOU need to learn something form your own links. Stop being a fool and read your own research

Hey Washboard what percentage does their health insurance cost? I'm just curious.

Washboard is too cheap to provide Health insurance that cheap bastard bitches about legally mandated workers comp. You think he would pay for anything above and beyond that?? Hahah no freaking way.

Washboard I wouldn't work for you or ever apply for a position in your company. I educated myself so I would never have to.

Reid, Pelosi and Oborrow are utterly corrupted to the core. Its transparent and shameful.

Liberals handed a junior senator a blank check and what is the result? A $12 Trillion debt (and growing) with 15%+ of Americans out of work (and growing) as our banks pay themselves fat bonuses for failing and put the TARP burden on your shoulders. Why are liberals ok with this?

This health care deal will be a complete disaster. Just like CA....the US will be writing IOU's as our gov't legislates the country into bankruptcy.

What is stunning is that liberals don't care if we fail.

"What is stunning is that liberals don't care if we fail."

The irony is palpable.

I am just wondering if all you righties who are predicting gloom and doom will eat your frigging words when the reform works. Well will you?

#86 | Posted by JimmyWallback

I will.

The only problem is your definition of it works will change.

It will certainly work for the politico-industrial complex.

Is that what you mean?

Last year I paid $79 per week= $320 per month.

Layed off after 17 years as Obama tool office. Yes, I blame Bush for losing my last job. So does the other PM at my last office.

New job offers insurance:

$240 per week with a $4,000 deductible or,
$280 per week with $2,000 deductible.

I'm paying $1,120 per month now. For me that's an $800/month increase. This for family coverage.

Sound like a problem to anyone else? Well, I'm a veteran too. Next year I will drop my full family coverage, take the VA for myself and purchase a spouse/child private insurance for less.

Let's review: I am CHOOSING government health care (VA) over private due to cost.

Any change that I can make to help me keep my home and family healthy is worth looking at.

Have a Republican here suggest an alternative for me. I'm waiting.

PS-My family and I do all we can do to stay healthy. eat right, exercise and....pray.

#147 | Posted by ArmyVet

So you're putting your faith in a 2,000+ page law that was written by lobbyists from SEIU?

You're obviously quite intelligent, so where does your faith in obviously corrupt politicians come from?

I don't get it.

Ever hear the phrase, rue the day?

yesterday on LITTLE GEORGE"S show

rep wasserman-smith STILL denied the charge from a republican rep about the 'panels' in obamacare being just like the one if not the same one that came out with the breast cancer thing.
even after it was read to her, she said...thats wrong.
maybe she will be included in the 'great purge' of 2010

and all of the sunday shows were good. the gop there all came out loaded for bear and desttoyed the leftists there in bunches

BUT On face the nation..whats his name asked schumer if it would raise taxes and I timed it.
he asked him that with TEN seconds left in the interview....gee...that was a real surprise that he didnt have the time to finish listing them.

great link kbm

send it to washington

OOPS...reports are that people are having trouble getting through to democrats there..
big surprise huh?

"Newsweek Editor Admits: Health Care Bill a Fiscal Fraud' But I'd Still Vote for It'"