Republicans have got nothing as usual. The party of fucking idiots and loud mouthed cowards.

Let them pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

Ronald Reagan

.....the dog ate the Bill........

The republicans can't write one because the democrats used every ream of paper in the country to write theirs.

Democrats are idiots and say this only for political shit for the liberal media. Of course jackass pipes up believing it to be so. The repubs have proposed plans, proposals and amendments just to be told by Reid/Pelosi and Co. thanks but no thanks.

"The repubs have proposed plans"

Link?

The repubs have proposed plans, proposals and amendments
.....#5 | Posted by KBM

....they had their kick at the can when they had the majority in the house & senate......and what did they come up with for healthcare ?......

.....nothing but a multi-billion give-away to the drug companies......

.......they had their chance......

#6 | Posted by Danforth at 2009-11-19 10:36 AM | Reply | Flag: Never heard of google.

Back in June:

.......they had their chance......

#7 | Posted by skizziks at 2009-11-19 10:38 AM | Reply | Flag:

Hillary care? Libtards have such short memories.

Hillary care? Libtards have such short memories.
.....#9 | Posted by ELCIDCE90

......we remember....we did NOT get it done then...

....and you did NOT get it done when you had your turn......

......so now its our turn again.......this time we'll get it done......

"Back in June:"

El Cidney obviously doesn't understand the meaning of the word plan. From his "cbsnews" link:

"The four-page Republican health care outline..."

Some "plan", dumbshit.

......we remember....we did NOT get it done then...

....and you did NOT get it done when you had your turn......

......so now its our turn again.......this time we'll get it done......

Posted by skizziks at 2009-11-19 10:46 AM | Reply YEAH, MY DAD CAN BEAT UP YOUR DAD AND STUFF

No matter how detrimental it is to the country, we will shove it down America's throat, despite the majority not wanting it.

Good job. Party and Power, the Dem mantra. Abort all the others who dissent.

#11 | Posted by Danforth at 2009-11-19 10:49 AM | Reply | Flag:

So by your reasoning the 2,074 page plan is better just because it contains 2,070 more pages? You are playing politics and know it. If the Republicans put forth any bill the dems would kill it outright. Pelosi would not even allow it on the agenda - so go down to Walgreens and buy a clue. Again, go back to the crack pipe and enjoy your morning - let adults do the thinking.

"Link?"

#6 | Posted by Danforth

El Cidney obviously doesn't understand the meaning of the word plan. From his "cbsnews" link:

"The four-page Republican health care outline..."

Some "plan", dumbshit.

#11 | Posted by Danforth at 2009-11-19 10:49 AM | Reply | Flag:

"Never saw a definition of a plan..."

An outline is not a plan, idiot.

"4 pages is enough."

I know it's still early, but I'm betting this holds on to win the Moronic Post of the Day award.

"An outline is not a plan, idiot."

You DO KNOW, don't you, that the huge democrat bill isn't complete and is really just an "outline?" Of course, if it's over 2000 pages and a trillion dollars I suppose you could say it's a "plan"....sort of.

"You DO KNOW, don't you, that the huge democrat bill isn't complete and is really just an "outline?" Of course, if it's over 2000 pages and a trillion dollars I suppose you could say it's a "plan"....sort of."

And how, pray tell, does that transform the Rs 4 page outline into a plan?

No matter how detrimental it is to the country, we will shove it down America's throat, despite the majority not wanting it.
........#12 | Posted by The_Chapel

......the majority DO want it........

....and it will be good for the country.......

"Congress must take the time to get this right."

I guess 80 years hasn't been long enough.

The ONLY reason why the Conservatives want to delay this is so it will just go away. It's not going away and You conservatives hate that. Pisses You off that Your government might have to take responsibility for their lesser citizenry. THAT'S the crux of the whole thing.

Larry

despite the majority not wanting it.
........#12 | Posted by The_Chapel

.....here is a reality check for you Chapel......

Americans Overwhelmingly Want A Public Option

Share Print CommentsThe results of a little-publicized survey were released this week by Senator Richard Durbin, the Senate Majority Whip. The survey asked 83,954 participants which form of the public option they preferred: a 50-state public option, an opt-out public option, an opt-in public option, an option with a "trigger" or no public option at all.

Eighty percent favored a strong public option that covered uninsured Americans and provided the necessary competition to keep insurance company costs and premiums in check. A majority showed moderate to high support for a public option that includes a state "opt-out" provision; 75 percent voiced little or no support for a public option that requires states to "opt-in"; and only 12 percent showed moderate to full support for a "trigger", with 65 percent completely opposed to such a compromise.

"And how, pray tell, does that transform the Rs 4 page outline into a plan?"

I wasn't aware that a "plan" was required to have over 2000 pages and a price tag of a trillion dollars. But then, I suppose you would require that it be authored by democrats in order to qualify also.

"I wasn't aware that a "plan" was required to have over 2000 pages and a price tag of a trillion dollars."

It doesn't.

Now...how does any of that magically transform a 4 page outline into a "plan"...? Do you actually have an answer, or should I expect more tap dancing?

Danforth,

Somewhat unrelated - please tell me you recognize the pitfalls of a 2000-page bill replete with the word "shall" over and over again.

"please tell me you recognize the pitfalls of a 2000-page bill replete with the word "shall" over and over again."

You're joking, right? What...do you think they should replace it with something about the "general welfare"?

You're joking, right? What...do you think they should replace it with something about the "general welfare"?

What???

Once again, rightwingers are full of shit. They have nothing. Just opposition. Just amendments to benefit their donors in big business (a la "tort reform"). Is it any surprise the American electorate has turned it's back on this Party of charlatans.

AMEN Moder8 AMEN

"What???"

Why this aversion to the word "shall"...?

please tell me you recognize the pitfalls of a 2000-page bill replete with the word "shall" over and over again."

You're joking, right? What...do you think they should replace it with something about the "general welfare"?

#27 | Posted by Danforth

Nah. They should just replace each "shall" with a random selection from a list including "possibly", "maybe", "perhaps", and "whatever".

Here is a 219 page alternate plan. I realize it's only one tenth of the pages in the democrat marvel but IT IS closer to the number of pages, isn't it? How many would it require in order to qualify as a "plan" in your definition, Danny, me boy? And the price tag...I'm quite sure it's not a trillion dollars so does THAT disqualify it? No need to reply though. I'm well aware you aren't ever going to back off your statement that the republicans have no plan.

Why this aversion to the word "shall"...?

#31 | Posted by Danforth

It's a function of coersion.

Under this bill, the state 'forces' certain people to purchase something they don't want and they do so not as a requirement for the granting of a liscence or other privelege, but simply because they exist.

I'm well aware you aren't ever going to back off your statement that the republicans have no plan.

Be fair.

Give him a chance - he might not have been aware that such a bill existed. The MSM certainly ignored its existence.

"How many would it require in order to qualify as a "plan" in your definition, Danny, me boy?"

Ah, more tap dancing. I claimed a 4 page outline is NOT a plan, and ever since, you've been trying to play little games about page requirements. Still don't have an answer?

"I'm well aware you aren't ever going to back off your statement that the republicans have no plan."

Where did I make that statement, you addled old man?

Where did I make that statement, you addled old man?

At first, a 4-page summation was offered and you mocked it as an 'outline'.
Then the actual bill was offered and you acted as if your initial derision didn't suggest that the GOP didn't have an alternate plan.

It comes accross as a contradiction on your part.

"At first, a 4-page summation was offered and you mocked it as an 'outline'."

No, the link El Cydney offered called it an "outline".

"Then the actual bill was offered and you acted as if your initial derision didn't suggest that the GOP didn't have an alternate plan."

My derision was aimed at idiots who called a 4 page outline a "plan", and others who then tried to pretend the number of pages had nothing to do with whether it was a plan or not, and stated the 2000+ pages of the Democratic bill was just an "outline", as if that made the 4 pages a "plan".

Ah, more tap dancing. I claimed a 4 page outline is NOT a plan - DANNYBOY

Ah, more dope smoking. I listed two links to two different plans. You seem only able to attack the streamlined 4 pager. What about the 219 page one?

"I listed two links to two different plans. You seem only able to attack the streamlined 4 pager. "

Ah, so you're again claiming the admitted 4 page outline was a plan. Got it.

"Right here:"

Asking for a link isn't the same as claiming there isn't one, dumbshit.

#38 | Posted by Danforth

Fair enough.

Your clarification makes sense.

"Ah, more tap dancing."

LOL....Aren't YOU the "actor/dancer/entertainer?" Somehow that statement caused me to conjure up a mental image of a pudgy Danforth in a tight little leotard outfit dancing and tiptoeing across a stage. Damn, I hope that image doen't appear every time I see your name from now on. Up until now the image I had was of a rugged cowboy type...like when you appeared in "Brokeback Mountain"...who sometimes performs and sings:
MMM MMM MMM!
Barack hussein Obama!
MMM MMM MMM!

"Aren't YOU the "actor/dancer/entertainer?" "

I recognize tap dancing when I see it.

"Somehow that statement caused me to conjure up a mental image of a pudgy Danforth in a tight little leotard outfit dancing and tiptoeing across a stage"

Whatever gets you through the night, old man.

"Up until now the image I had was of a rugged cowboy type...like when you appeared in "Brokeback Mountain""

Back to that addled reference yet again? Do you remember you've used that "joke" about 50 times, or is it time to change your Alzheimers meds again?

"Whatever gets you through the night, old man."

I sleep really well at night but I have to admit that you...along with some of your little friends...DO provide some quality amusement for me in the mornings.

"Back to that addled reference yet again?"

Is "addled" your word for the day? Did you pick that up from one of the Bill O'Reilly shows?

"Is "addled" your word for the day? Did you pick that up from one of the Bill O'Reilly shows?"

No, it's just the word that occurs to me again and again when I read your posts.

The republicans can't write one because the democrats used every ream of paper in the country to write theirs.

#4 | Posted by goatman at 2009-11-19 10:30 AM | Reply | Flag: Moronic republican deflection of the day

And it wasn't funny either.

#4 | Posted by goatman at 2009-11-19 10:30 AM | Reply | Flag: Moronic republican deflection of the day

It was a joke. Lighten up. You're wound up tighter than an 8 day clock.

This is the last conversation I will have with you. On any subject. Ever.

Posted by Alexandrite at 2009-11-13 03:27 AM

Is Dick Durbin ignorant of the multiple Republican plans that have been proposed during the last year? Or is he pretending they weren't proposed to make Republicans look bad? Either way, he's a fucking chump.

I love stupid people, people who can't differentiate between "conversation" and "being mocked".

Those types only exist so normal folk can make fun of them.

#49 | Posted by Alexandrite at 2009-11-19 12:48 PM | Reply | Flag: 8 day clock

I love stupid people, people who can't differentiate between "conversation" and "being mocked".

Those types only exist so normal folk can make fun of them.

I like the stupid ones who don't recognize a joke and get their little panties all in a wad about it.

"Dick Durbin is free to compare his party's horrific monstrosity of a bill to either of these bills. He won't."

I will. In at least one of them, Republicans suggest being able to buy insurance across state lines, and that the insurance company would only have to adhere to the laws in the originating state, not the state where the buyer resides.

Anyone want to guess where that would lead?

My guess is there would be a race to the bottom, that the insurance companies would offer a hundred thousand jobs to the first state who would allow them to write the laws.

As opposed to the Democrat plan, which was not written by lobbyists and pharmaceutical companies.

"As opposed to the Democrat plan, which was not written by lobbyists and pharmaceutical companies."

Sucky deflection.

I don't like the Dem plan, either.

A good conservative would be proposing bills to decrease government, not enlarge it.

Until we have had a chance to read the full 2,074-page Reid bill, it's impossible for Americans to fully grasp what the majority leader has cooked up behind closed doors," Senator John Cornyn, Republican of Texas
^^

Reminds me of TARP.

The republicans can't write one because the democrats used every ream of paper in the country to write theirs.

#4 | Posted by goatman at 2009-11-19 10:30 AM | Reply

You mean they haven't learned how to write on the tv with the keyboard yet?

A good conservative

Extinct.

"My guess is there would be a race to the bottom, that the insurance companies would offer a hundred thousand jobs to the first state who would allow them to write the laws."

My guess is you are exactly right, sort of the way Delaware is for many corporations now.

"The four-page Republican health care outline..."

Page 1. Don't get sick.

Page 2. Don't think about getting sick.

Page 3. If you get sick you are fucked.

Page 4. " "

You mean they haven't learned how to write on the tv with the keyboard yet?

I'm pretty sure they have. Haven't you learned to recognize a joke when you see one? Or did you really think that every ream of paper in the US was used in that bill?

Don't feel bad. You've got a brother in ignorance with Alex.

Lighten up

"Dick Durbin is free to compare his party's horrific monstrosity of a bill to either of these bills. He won't."

Oh, I don't think he would have any problem comparing that POS bill to the Dem bill.

Here's part of HR 2520:

"Replaces title XIX (Medicaid) of the Social Security Act with a program to provide grants to states for: (1) acute medical care assistance to otherwise qualified blind or disabled individuals, foster care children, low-income women with breast or cervical cancer, certain tuberculosis-infected individuals, and certain individuals currently covered; and (2) long-term care services and supports for qualified disabled and elderly populations. Repeals title XXI (State Children's Health Insurance Program) (CHIP, formerly known as SCHIP) of the Social Security Act."

Basicly, throw millions of kids under the bus and only provide some debit card "supplemental assistance" to poor families which, the author of the bill knows very well, would not be enough to go and buy health insurance with and it would have to go through the private, for profit insurance system. It's CRAP!!!!

Oh, I don't think he would have any problem comparing that POS bill to the Dem bill.

Then why doesn't he? He has instead chosen to pretend the bills don't exist. Why?

Reading the demo health bill thing three times in the senate, per the rules of that august body, would demonstrate what an unwieldy monstrosity the bill really it. ALL senators should be required to be on the senate floor while the clerks plow through the thing.

I love the self styled progressives saying "it's under a trillion..or it saves $127 billion".

Where is the money coming from to pay for this NEW entitlement in the first place...from the hides of the the unwashed electorate who do not a have a dime left...let alone a trillion bucks.

How about JUST making insurance transportable across state lines and fixing the preexisting conditions thing now and NOT spending a trillion or so while the nation wallows in a horrible recession.

Repub: Wait a second, here it comes . There it is!

Page 1. Don't get sick.

Page 2. Don't think about getting sick.

Page 3. If you get sick you are fucked.

Page 4. This page intentionally left blank.

#60 | Posted by 726

FTFY

#65 Scrumplet

Repub: Wait a second, here it comes {drops pants, drops a #2 on the floor}. There it is!

"He has instead chosen to pretend the bills don't exist. Why?"

Maybe because, like Social Security Privatization, the "plan" doesn't address the actual problems. Of the two linked earlier, one wasn't a plan at all, and one doesn't cover anyone new while making it easier for insurance companies to collaborate and screw over the public.

"Democrats are idiots and say this only for political shit for the liberal media."

Anything to distract and deflect criticism from their POS plan that will never pass anyway....
.

They're waiting for the Invisible man in the sky to give them direction.

Reid whips out his massive "plan" from his cockass and Durbin drools...

Rangel can be heard in the background "dammit, I'll need four lawyers and three weeks to understand that concockshun"...

And, all the reasonable people wonder how massive it'll be when they replace all the TBD's with actual administrative language... perhaps 100,000 pages like medicare?

We're gonna needs a whole new branch of government just to interperet the rules, and ALJ's to settle the WTF moments :)

This is gonna be awesome

What possible relevance would an R "plan" be anyhow? There's not even enough of them to get an amendment heard on the floor so who gives a flying fruitloop if it's 234 pages or written on tiolet paper?

Reid whips out his massive "plan" from his cockass and Durbin drools...

Rangel can be heard in the background "dammit, I'll need four lawyers and three weeks to understand that concockshun

71 | Posted by SHEEPLESHEPERD at 2009-11-19 02:10 PM

Once again, the bible thumpers obsess with homosexuality.

Maybe because, like Social Security Privatization, the "plan" doesn't address the actual problems.

Then why not demonstrate that by a public conversation about the bill? Why pretend the bill does not exist?

"Congress must take the time to get this right."

But hurry up and make a decision on Afghanistan.

Do you guys ever step back and listen to yourselves?

Haven't you learned to recognize a joke when you see one?

No, I fully realized you were attempting to be funny. Attempting being the operative word.

It appears that you have a problem recognizing a joke as well.

Don't worry, we welcome you to the dumbass club with open arms.

"Then why not demonstrate that by a public conversation about the bill?"

Because the opposition has never been interested in anything but shouting down whatever is being said in public.

"Why pretend the bill does not exist?"

It's too much fun mocking those who consider a 4 page outline a "plan".

Where is the money coming from to pay for this NEW entitlement in the first place

Read the plan and find out.

The huge mistake in this whole process was the lack of promise keeping when Obama talked in his campaign about how he was going to be bipartisan. If he was any kind of leader when he took office, he should of (early on) brought the leadership of both parties and jumped on their sorry rear-ends and told them to get working together on a bi-partisan bill and then be involved in the process instead of sitting on the side-lines not knowing what the heck is going on. This administration has not taken ownership of squat.

It's too much fun mocking those who consider a 4 page outline a "plan".

Kind of like Bronzer Boner's 18 page stimulus "plan" that contained no numbers.

It's too much fun mocking those who consider a 4 page outline a "plan".

The bills I posted are not 4 pages. Your comments in that regard have nothing to do with the fact that Dick Durbin is willfully ignorant for pretending that Republican healthcare bills exist and are ready for the "comparison" he thumped his chest about.

do not exist

Obama talked in his campaign about how he was going to be bipartisan.

Like the stimulus plan that included elements the Republics wanted and then they voted against it anyways?

"he should of (early on) brought the leadership of both parties and jumped on their sorry rear-ends and told them to get working together on a bi-partisan bill"

He did. The Republicans told him to take a hike.

"Republicans were not taking the bait."

Sorry 'Dick' not playing your silly little game

No wonder the liberals are whining and moaning....
.

"Your comments in that regard have nothing to do with the fact that Dick Durbin is willfully ignorant for pretending that Republican healthcare bills exist and are ready for the "comparison" he thumped his chest about."

Then why don't the Republicans go ahead and post their bill? What's stopping them from comparing the Dems concept of insurance companies having to adhere to the buyer's state laws, versus the Republican plan allowing the state laws where the companies write the policy?

For that matter, you're welcome to compare and contrast.

Jerry,

he he, ha ha, ho ho... Pretty sure none of them are gay or believers in the bible... Do you suspect they prefer rooster's or donkey's?

Remember, its not the size of the plan, its the magic contained in it...

he he, ha ha, ho ho, I'll be happy to see them nice young men in their clean white coats and they're coming to take me away, ha ha, to the happy home where I can sit and smile and twiddle my thumbs...

"Sorry 'Dick' not playing your silly little game"

You mean you're not doing what you insist on the Democrats doing?

Posted by SHEEPLESHEPERD at 2009-11-19 02:38 PM | Reply Flag- Pretends he's not posting from there already on tight white jacket breaks

"As opposed to the Democrat plan, which was not written by lobbyists and pharmaceutical companies."

Sucky deflection.

I don't like the Dem plan, either.

#54 | Posted by Danforth

Correct, the Dem plan was written by lobbyists from the SEIU.

"the Dem plan was written by lobbyists from the SEIU."

Can you taste the stupid when you write something like that?

Then why don't the Republicans go ahead and post their bill?

Post it where? The internet? I just linked you to it.

What's stopping them from comparing the Dems concept of insurance companies having to adhere to the buyer's state laws, versus the Republican plan allowing the state laws where the companies write the policy?

Nothing. But they aren't the ones going out and saying that the other side has no plan, when in fact they do.

"Post it where? The internet?"

Then why are the Republicans claiming they won't post a bill?

"they aren't the ones going out and saying that the other side has no plan, when in fact they do."

Then guys like you should be pointing out the obvious Republican Plan advantages, instead of whining about something the idiot Democrats do.

Did I say there were obvious advantages? I said there is a plan, and that Dick Durbin is either ignorant or a liar for suggesting there isn't one. Why you would argue against that is a mystery. If you don't dispute that, then STFU since that was my only point.

"the Dems concept of insurance companies having to adhere to the buyer's state laws"

This would be the status quo, its just a fed law to enforce state's law's...

For example, if BCBSNC sells a policy to IBM, since IBM has facilities in Mass, the policy must meet the requirements of Romneycare's minimum requirements. Pop quiz..

Q: How does that save money or improve coverage?
A: Doesn't, just adds layers of administrative falafel.

"So I guess everybody "hates queers" or you have no idea what you are talking about."

He tried but the Republicans have one answer to everything...let's cut taxes. That is the only thing they will ever support and everyone knows it. They now whine about the debt that they created and still keep repeating the same thing, cut taxes. He should tell Reid, either pass this bill by getting 60 votes to break the Republican filibuster or use the nuclear option and pass this bill. Republicans got what they wanted by threatening the nuclear option and Democrats backed down so now Democrats should threaten it and when the Republican still won't budge, then use it. The only reason not to use it is fear that when the Republicans have a majority some day in the future they might not use it when then want to but that is a false expectation, Republicans will use that and anything else to get their way if they have to. So, I say use it and finally stop the obstructionists from preventing any progress in this country.

He did. The Republicans told him to take a hike.

#84 | Posted by Danforth

Baloney, his idea of bi-partisanship was for the repubs to support the dem plan. That I'm, afraid, is not bi-partisanship--- Bi-partisanship is bringing your best ideas together to really reform the system, not, this is the plan; now support it.

"Obviously you don't. Never saw a definition of a plan that had a requirement on the number of pages. www.thefreedictionary.com

4 pages is enough.

#15 | Posted by ELCIDCE90"

That is fucking awesome. ELCID thinks that a plan to reform health care for the entire country can be written in four pages. The stupid runs strong in this one.

"So I guess everybody "hates queers"..."

I don't want to speak for everyone, but I do.
-God

Asking for a link isn't the same as claiming there isn't one, dumbshit.

#40 | Posted by Danforth at 2009-11-19 12:01 PM | Reply | Flag:

Are you fucking kidding? No really. How long you been posting on the DR? You could be the biggest idiot on the DR today if you keep that argument up.

Asking for link=I don't believe your claim. Anyone disagree? Except for dannyboy that is.

#98 | Posted by mOntecOre at 2009-11-19 03:25 PM | Reply | Flag:

So again, by your measure if the Republicans came up with a 10,000 page "plan" it would be better?

So much for your project management skills monty.

Never heard of KISS I guess. Very appropriate for you and dannyboy today:

Keep
It
Simple
Stupid

Emphasis on the last word for libtards.

"Asking for link=I don't believe your claim."

Link?

Ah, more tap dancing. I claimed a 4 page outline is NOT a plan, and ever since, you've been trying to play little games about page requirements. Still don't have an answer?

"I'm well aware you aren't ever going to back off your statement that the republicans have no plan."

Where did I make that statement, you addled old man?

#36 | Posted by Danforth

Danforth,

Why are you harping on a 4-page summary when they showed you a Republican plan of significant substance?

"his idea of bi-partisanship was for the repubs to support the dem plan."

Nonsense. Name one thing the Republicans have budged on.

Besides, if that were true, Rs would have voted for the plan after getting out parts to which they objected.

For example, one Rep said he couldn't vote for the health bill because of the abortion provisions. Once taken out, he said he couldn't vote for it because of the public option. Obviously, if the public option is taken out, he won't be able to vote for it because of the cost, and if the cost is neutralized, he won't be able to vote for it because of the cuts to Medicare Advantage, and if those are eliminated, he won't be able to vote for it because...well, because the guy pushing it has a (D) after his name, which was the real objection from the start.

"Why are you harping on a 4-page summary when they showed you a Republican plan of significant substance? "

The 4 page "summary", as you call it, was called a "plan", more than once.

And "significant substance"?!? When it doesn't address the underlying problems, doesn't cover any more people, and makes it easier for insurance companies to screw the public? What part of that do you consider "significant substance"?!?

And "significant substance"?!? When it doesn't address the underlying problems, doesn't cover any more people, and makes it easier for insurance companies to screw the public? What part of that do you consider "significant substance"?!?

#105 | Posted by Danforth

You are just arguing just to argue. Why don't you stop and take a 30K view of this.

1. Democrats are moving too fast on this issue. We want to make a quick decision to fix a problem that took 30, 40 or more years to create. It's like trying to lose 80 lbs in 2 weeks when it took 20 years to put the weight on. It's not healthy.

2. You are harping on a 4-page summary when someone linked to a 217 (or so) page document proposing the GOP's view. I don't think it's complete. I really don't understand why you are so passionate about it. The Reid bill is not the final bill, not even remotely. It's too big, too expensive and does nothing but move the "disfunction" from the for-profit insurance companies over to the Federal Government.

... more in a later post.

"Did I say there were obvious advantages? I said there is a plan"

And the Republicans have said they haven't crafted a comprehensive plan. ("Republicans were not taking the bait. They have long said that they have no intention of offering a comprehensive bill")

You'd better take it up with them.

Make your decision -- is there really a Republican plan or not? -- and get back to us.

"Democrats are moving too fast on this issue."

80 years just isn't enough?

"someone linked to a 217 (or so) page document proposing the GOP's view. "

While Republicans have said they haven't crafted a comprehensive plan. So which is it?

"The Reid bill is not the final bill, not even remotely. It's too big, too expensive and does nothing but move the "disfunction" from the for-profit insurance companies over to the Federal Government. "

Agreed, on all accounts.

And I bet there's not a word about bike paths, or exercise classes, or personal responsibility in either plan.

3. let's look at the evolution of health care in America. Back in 1980, if you got a job, you got insurance. It didn't pay the whole bill, but it paid a lot of it. Fast forward to 1997 when your employer paid for your premium and many emplorers (mine did) paid the family premium as well. The policy had a $10 (some $2) co-pay on drugs and office visits. Emergency care was 100% paid. Ok? Now, in 2009, IF you emplorer pays your premium, you're lucky. Now we have 30% co-pays up to the first $2500!!!

No wonder people are complaining.

Face it. We were addicted to the fact that we don't pay for our own health care. We expect SOMEONE else to pay it. We don't care if it's the employer, the insurance company or the government!!!

What did this practice of expecting free health care do to the industry? It causes waste. Waste causes prices to go up.

"You are just arguing just to argue."

Nonsense. If Republicans came out with a bill that would just take money out of Social Security and give it to Wall Street, and call that reform when it never actually addressed the problems, it shouldn't be given the time of day.

Oh wait...that already happened.

"It's like trying to lose 80 lbs in 2 weeks when it took 20 years to put the weight on. It's not healthy."

What's really not healthy is twiddling our thumbs for another few years while health care costs continue to spiral, and become out of the reach of average Americans.

"Back in 1980, if you got a job, you got insurance. It didn't pay the whole bill, but it paid a lot of it. Fast forward to 1997..."

Whoa...hold on there; you're missing a huge part of the picture.

Health costs, from back in 1980, have been rising faster than inflation. ALWAYS. I've served on health committees since the mid-80s, and sometimes the costs went up MANY TIMES inflation, but NEVER did they go up less than inflation or even the same as inflation...never.

In the last decade, workers' health costs (higher premiums, higher co-pays, higher deductibles, etc) have gone up 131%, while inflation rose 31.5%.

Meanwhile, health insurance companies saw their profits quadruple.

And we're about to see a spike in health care demand as the baby boomers age through retirement. All this while the worker-to-recipient ratio drops precipitously.

Fasten your seatbelts. It's going to be a bumpy ride.

Make your decision -- is there really a Republican plan or not? -- and get back to us.

#107 | Posted by Danforth

I don't think there is a Republican plan. They are letting the politics play into this and it's not what I think our lawmakers should be doing.

In other words, they want the current bill to fail and are standing as far away as they possibly can. I don't agree with the politics at all! I'm sick of it (no pun)

I agree with neither the Democrat nor Republican plans.

What I would support is this:

Allow any and all insurance companies operate in all states. Make a law that would force the states to enforce a "basic policy" that all insurance companies must use. This would cause insurance companies to become non-profit. This is an idea that I like a lot! Non-profit. Insurance companies would compete by adding services and coverage's.

I would allow states to enforce maximum premiums...

or

Medicare/Medicaid? Gone! To be absorbed by an state monitored insurance pool that would require every insurance company to participate and take a percentage of the cost of covering those patients who are high cost.

I am still sitting on the fence on enforcing a rule that everyone would have to pay for insurance. If someone really doesn't want to buy insurance for themselves, that's one thing, but not covering their own children? They are deadbeats and child abusers if they can afford it and

All in all, the Republican plan too much protects the current corporate dysfunction and the Democrat's plan simply moves this dysfunction to the Federal Government.

MY plan moves the responsibility to the States as the Constitution demands.

Fasten your seatbelts. It's going to be a bumpy ride.

#112 | Posted by Danforth

This is true, but I'm ready for it.

I am hoping that it doesn't get worse and people continue to fall through the cracks.

In the last decade, workers' health costs (higher premiums, higher co-pays, higher deductibles, etc) have gone up 131%, while inflation rose 31.5%.

Meanwhile, health insurance companies saw their profits quadruple.

And we're about to see a spike in health care demand as the baby boomers age through retirement. All this while the worker-to-recipient ratio drops precipitously.

#112 | Posted by Danforth

I know!

But, it's not only ins companies, it's corporatized health care that has caused this inflation in health care.

The Federal Government running things is never going to solve this problem.

How do you cut cost or make cost be more honest and still keep the same quality (or improve quality?)

"So again, by your measure if the Republicans came up with a 10,000 page "plan" it would be better?

So much for your project management skills monty.

Never heard of KISS I guess. Very appropriate for you and dannyboy today:

Keep
It
Simple
Stupid

Emphasis on the last word for libtards.

#101 | Posted by ELCIDCE90"

Like I said, the stupid runs strong in this one. Let me KISS for you ELCID: you are officially a fucking idiot.

"What I would support is this:"

I like those ideas! Thanks for giving it some thought instead of jumping into the scream chamber.

"I am hoping that it doesn't get worse and people continue to fall through the cracks."

Same here. Good luck to both of us.

I think the key to the plan I am talking about is that the States must enforce a minimum and simple policy. Insurance companies are getting away with being able to come up with these plans that have legalese that rivals the IRS code. This is why they are able to deny coverage!

If the state allows any ins company participate in their state, they will enforce a simple basic policy that says it covers everything, INCLUDING CANCER! Also, it will have high life-time maximums or no max at all.

"The Federal Government running things is never going to solve this problem."

Having some public counterpoint to monopolistic health insurance companies control over annual price increases is paramount, since the government is on the hook for so much: currently 40% of the insured, with that number only going up as the BBs retire. If wages have stagnated, health costs more than doubled, and Health insurance companies seen their profits quadruple, I think we see where one problem lies.

"How do you cut cost or make cost be more honest and still keep the same quality (or improve quality?"

Well, there are some common sense concepts: wellness plans, so we prevent more than we cure, and moving people from ERs to GPs. That, and making an unprecedented commitment to personal responsibility, would make enormous differences, especially the latter: in truth, the best way to bring down the cost of health care is to be too healthy to need it.

I'd also make it a capital offense to defraud The Public Option...but that's just me.

#101 | Posted by ELCIDCE90"

Like I said, the stupid runs strong in this one. Let me KISS for you ELCID: you are officially a fucking idiot.

#116 | Posted by mOntecOre

No, I disagree. He's an idiot because he pointed out the obvious?

I agree with ELCID. The Dems want the Republicans to offer up a similar level of dysfunction as they have. I think that's ridicules.

I don't like anything the Dems or the Repubs are doing!!!

"No, I disagree. He's an idiot because he pointed out the obvious?"

No.

"I agree with ELCID.
#120 | Posted by Eddie"

I want to make sure I understand your position, Crazy Eddie. Do you agree with ELCID that a plan (i.e., legislation) to refomr health care for the entire country can be written in four pages? Because that's ELCID believes, and he is a fucking idiot.

I like those ideas! Thanks for giving it some thought instead of jumping into the scream chamber.

"I am hoping that it doesn't get worse and people continue to fall through the cracks."

Same here. Good luck to both of us.

#117 | Posted by Danforth

I think we need to replace these jackasses in Congress.....

With ourselves!

What a concept!!!

I want to make sure I understand your position, Crazy Eddie. Do you agree with ELCID that a plan (i.e., legislation) to refomr health care for the entire country can be written in four pages? Because that's ELCID believes, and he is a fucking idiot.

#121 | Posted by mOntecOre

No, not at all.

But I don't think that the Republicans should add to the dysfunction with their support of Corportized Health Care either!

If you look back, ELCID was making fun of the extremes.

I think he was saying that a 4-page reform document is far less damaging than a 1000-page document.

"If you look back, ELCID was making fun of the extremes. "

No he wasn't.

He hadn't read the articles he linked to, and got caught calling a 4-page "outline" (summarized very well above in Post #66) a "plan".

...Crazy Eddie...

#121 | Posted by mOntecOre at 2009-11-19 05:54 PM | Reply | Flag: Read "The Mote in God's Eye"

No matter how detrimental it is to the country, we will shove it down America's throat, despite the majority not wanting it.

Good job. Party and Power, the Dem mantra. Abort all the others who dissent.

#12 | Posted by The_Chapel

Oh how soon they forget....

"It may not be popular with the public it doesn't matter in the sense that we have to continue the mission and do what we think is right. And that's exactly what we're doing," Cheney said. "We're not running for office. We're doing what we think is right."--Dick Cheney Nov 2006

They claimed to be promoting democracy while expressing disdain for it. THAT was the Bush/Cheney Doctrine.

"I think he was saying that a 4-page reform document is far less damaging than a 1000-page document.
#123 | Posted by Eddie"

Then you think wrong.

He said: "Never saw a definition of a plan that had a requirement on the number of pages.
4 pages is enough.
#15 | Posted by ELCIDCE90"

"#121 | Posted by mOntecOre at 2009-11-19 05:54 PM | Reply | Flag: Read "The Mote in God's Eye"

#125 | Posted by goatman"

Affirmative. In my top ten for fiction.

In my top ten for fiction.

Mine too. Probably top 5 or so sci-fi.

Did you read The Gripping Hand?

I just finished a Niven book last week: Building Harlequin's Moon. Not too bad for general sci-fi, but I expected little more from Niven.

#126 They claimed to be promoting democracy while expressing disdain for it. THAT was the Bush/Cheney Doctrine.

So what do you call the doctrine that is similarly practiced by your Deomocratic heroes Donnerboy? Were Bush/Cheney wrong for forcing something that wasn't popular? And if so, are your Democrats wrong in doing the same thing?

The Dems changed the locks on the conference rooms when law was being written, have blocked every amendment proposed by Republicans, including the one where Congress would have to participate in the same health care plan that the rest of us will be subjected to, and just repeat the mantra that "Republicans have nothing to offer".

In fact, the Republicans have many suggestions, including allowing insurance purchase across state lines which would lower premiums and increase competition in the private sector. They have proposed allowing tax deductions to individuals that are now given to employers to purchase health insurance after shopping for the plan individuals! want, tort reform to ease the burden on doctors, increasing the number of students in medical schools to meet patient demand, increasing health care savings accounts so that people can pay bank money to pay for those medical needs not met by their health plans. These are just some examples.

In contrast, the Dems offer the following health care plan: Higher Taxes, Rationed Care, Control of every part of our lives, loss of individual freedom and control over our own bodies. There is nothing in this health reform plan that lowers costs or increases the quality of health care. It is the ultimate destruction of our medical system. Just another tool leading to the systematic dismantling and destruction of our economic system as the govt. takes over yet another 16% of our economy.

This 2000+ Bill in the Senate cannot possibly be Constitutional. However, The Dems could care less about our Constitutional Rights to Life, Liberty, Personal Property, and the Pursuit of Happiness and our own individual choices, choices made on our own individual needs. They Just Want Power Over Us. Its that simple. And with this health reform, they will OWN OUR BODIES and they will make ALL our decisions for us.

Evil is staring us in the face. This is not about Democrats and Republicans. It is about being Americans and our children, their children and what we leave them. We as a people will not continue to be free if this health reform passes into law. It fundamentally changes the relationship we have with our government, where instead of sovereign individuals in charge of our destiny, the government owns us. We must fight this with all our strength and honesty before all is lost.

#131 | Posted by Kissntell

A paragraph and a link will do, dumbshit.

#131 | Posted by Kissntell at 2009-11-19 10:49 PM | Reply | Flag:one of the first to sign up

A paragraph and a link will do, dumbshit.

#132 | Posted by nullifidian at 2009-11-19 10:52 PM | Reply | Flag: Is still befuddled on how to avoid a post

"the Dem plan was written by lobbyists from the SEIU."

Can you taste the stupid when you write something like that?

#91 | Posted by Danforth

Obama himself has said the same thing on a number of occasions.

You obviously don't know jack shit about how bills are written in congress...

...do you actually believe half-wits like Maxine Waters and Charley Rangel are capable of doing it?

Democrats: "Here is our bill":

thanks to one of my many ACE investigators..

goddamn democrats lying again about cost of senate bill

thanks for the info kbm
I wish I could read it all...its just too damn scary right now to know that so many people just dont care about those now.

there are bigger fish to fry rather than wasting time on healthcare at this point. Thus, no need for a bill to waste more money on a system that technically isn't broke.

#131 | Posted by Kissntell

A paragraph and a link will do, dumbshit.

#132 | Posted by nullifidian at 2009-11-19 10:52 PM | Reply
Doubt you could look it up and read fuck face

Doubt you could look it up and read fuck face

#140 | Posted by reinsurelaw

Great point, dumbass.

Republicans just don't want to have to admit that they in fact don't give a shit, and all other things aside really want back in power above all else.

If own'ing healthcare would put them back in power, they would sign that shit before the day is over.

knight, you're missing the point. conservatives simply don't believe the gov. should run healthcare. And this bill is the dems "foot in the door". ask yourself; why are the dems in such a hurry? another question; why do want to give the gov. something else to fuck up?

Dems ask Republicans, Where's your bill?

If any of them had the balls, the right frame of mind and acutally understoon the oath they took when sworn in they would respond, we don't have one it's none of our business, not withstanding the fact that it's unconstitutional to even introduce such a bill.

Tyvm.

knight, you're missing the point. conservatives simply don't believe the gov. should run healthcare. And this bill is the dems "foot in the door". ask yourself; why are the dems in such a hurry? another question; why do want to give the gov. something else to fuck up?

#143 | Posted by Maverick at 2009-11-20 07:41 PM | Reply |

Dems are racing against human nature and the unknown future. The longer this takes the more support they lose to american ADD.

If another election cycle comes around, they will have to start over.

To answer your last question. Because I believe whatever potential government fuck up that comes down will be better than what private corporations are putting us thru currently. If the government denies my medical requests I can go have at it with my government officials and fight to get them removed from office. If I get denied by a private corporation, I can go bitch at their CSR's who are well trained in telling me to go take a hike. I don't believe your health and well being should be pitted against a corporations profits. Its just wrong.

To me, its a far better thing that the people doin the healthcare be motivated by personal profit to give me more healthcare. As opposed to being motivated by personal profit to give me less. At least under this plan, I'll live long enough to complain about the costs.

If any of them had the balls, the right frame of mind and acutally understoon the oath they took when sworn in they would respond, we don't have one it's none of our business, not withstanding the fact that it's unconstitutional to even introduce such a bill.

Tyvm.

#144 | Posted by Washboard at 2009-11-20 07:51 PM | Reply |

Unfortunately thats for the Supreme Court to decide, not Washboard.

Unfortunately thats for the Supreme Court to decide, not Washboard.

#146 | Posted by KnightHawk at 2009-11-20 08:07 PM

Someone first has to file suit. That, may be up to the washboards.

We're working on it.

To me, its a far better thing that the people doin the healthcare be motivated by personal profit to give me more healthcare. As opposed to being motivated by personal profit to give me less. At least under this plan, I'll live long enough to complain about the costs.

#145 | Posted by KnightHawk at 2009-11-20 08:05 PM

You fit right in this place. Diarrhea of the mouth and constipation of the brain.

Please learn to use your computer for more than the above.

Read

Look where health care is in regards to profitability.

#148 | Posted by Washboard at 2009-11-20 08:21 PM | Reply |

Huh uh, and then? Cmon now, don't be shy make a point.

You owe me that much for the insults.

"In fact, the Republicans have many suggestions, including allowing insurance purchase across state lines which would lower premiums and increase competition in the private sector"

Except the Republican bill allows the policy to only have to adhere to the state laws in which its written, rather than any pesky state laws where people actually live.

It'll be all the insurance companies against the one weakest state legislature. And before long, you'll see a job-strapped state selling itself for 50,000 pieces of employment, errr...silver....

"You obviously don't know jack shit about how bills are written in congress..."

Actually, I do know both jack and shit about how bills are written.

"...do you actually believe half-wits like Maxine Waters and Charley Rangel are capable of doing it?"

Of course not. Do you?

My guess is both have staff who are well-versed and well-trained in crafting most of the language.

"The Republican Alternative"

" Democrats have been telling us all year that the Republicans have no health reform alternative. They are just the party of no! So we must have all been hallucinating when, lo and behold, just before the recent House vote on the Pelosi/Obama government health care takeover bill, there was a vote onthe Republican alternative.

Exactly the opposite of the House Democrat health plan, the Republican alternative would actually reduce the cost of health insurance and care. It would also expand coverage and provide a safety net ensuring that no one would be excluded from essential health coverage or care. It would also expand consumer choice and control over health care.

At the same time, the Republican plan involves no tax increases, no Medicare cuts, no rationing, and no increased deficits now or in the future. Exactly how all this is accomplished is fully explained below."

Is that the same bill the CBO scored? Not even American Spectator could shine that turd.

Do anybody really think the Democrats would seriously look at a Republican plan?

It's a political ploy, folks.

Republicans had control of Congress from 1994-2006, and the presidency from 2000-2008. If they had wanted a health care bill, they would have prodded The Deciderer to proclaim it was a mandate from Jesus. Absent that, they aren't interested in health care.

Do anybody really think the Democrats would seriously look at a Republican plan?

Insuring an additional 3 million and leaving 36 million uninsured made it DOA. It didn't do anything to actually reduce insurance costs across the board, it didn't do anything to secure Medicare, and it didn't save nearly as much as the Democratic Party's plan.

Too little too late. A token gesture, at best.