many Bush administration officials believed that soldiers who supported the war would not face psychological problems, and if they did, they would find comfort in faith.

What else would you expect from a bunch of draft dodgers?

Problem is, there tends to be consequences when you go against the values that your faith would foster within you.

To love your neighbor as yourself and feed and provide water to your enemy (Biblically) and then be told to kill them because they are terrorists and they are against you, your country and we have to get rid of them.

That is going to cause problems psycologically, mentally, and spiritually.

What would Palin say............

geebus would have joined the national guard.

I watched the color films of WWII last night on History Channel, many shots of wounds and death.
I don't see how anyone could go to war and not be seriously effected. I'll never be in a war but just watching that last night gave me more than enough insight to, at least, recognize that war is a horrible thing for our soldiers to endure. We should be doing everything we possible can to help them avoid injury and to take care of them both physically and mentally when they come home.

We should be doing everything we possible can to help them avoid injury and to take care of them both physically and mentally when they come home.
#5 | Posted by danni

Its a non starter. the costs of the war will double.

Republicans are crazy and evil. We have to find a way to reduce the Christian population.

Dear God,

Please End The Fed. Tomorrow.

Fix It, Jesus!

Which makes the point Shrub & binLaden are two crazy motherfuckers absolutely certain of the correctness and righteousness of their opposing opinions. Fifty years ago Eric Hoffer wrote a book about how these personality types are the biggest danger to progress faced by humanity called: "The True Believer". An easily understood problem that just won't go away because powerful commercial interests inside and outside religions want to keep it that way.

Republicans are crazy and evil. We have to find a way to reduce the Christian population.

What the fuck dude? Is the world that black and white?

Zombie to me yes. The biggest threat to the world is Christians and Republicans. This nation is in grave danger of become overrun by their radical belief system. We need to find a way of controlling their population. The eradication of Christianity should the goal of liberals everywhere. Freedom and Religion cannot coexist.

Jackass, you my friend are a self retorting retort.

You are not for corporate freedom, but rather individual freedom. you only care about yourself and what you need to consider yourself free. I do not effect your freedoms. You are free to do as you please, there just might be consequences for different things that you can freely do.

To eradicate is hardly propogating freedom.

I want to be free from Christians and Republicans. It infringes on rights that Christians and republicans block me from living the lifestyle I want to lead. Prostitution should be legal in all 50 states but some bible thumper thinks Jeebus would be mad. Several other things come to mind. Christians are a huge hindrance to my happiness

Zombie -

Jackass is our side's counter to Jak Se Mao, Nanc and Takitez. Amusing, and sometimes comes up with some real zingers, though not particularly persuasive.

No offense, Jackass. But even as an agnostic Democrat, I find it hard to take statements like those in your #11 seriously.

"Its a non starter. the costs of the war will double."

Hagbard:

If you'll think about it, having all the nations of the world come to the conclusion that they cannot afford the costs of war is a situation devoutly to be wished for.

For assholes here who think that jesus fixes everything, I have a suggestion:

Don't eat... jesus will come through.

#14 | Posted by cbob at 2009-11-17 03:03 PM

I wonder if the "Jackass" types (left or right) are going to be more and more the norm.

Well when you have retards running this nation into war with the wrong assumption that Jesus will cure their PTSD I would say we are already there.

My father until the day he died could not sleep through the night without nightmares of what he saw in war.

"Jesus Fixes Everything"

He doesn't fix everything you ask Him for, but it's kinda comforting to think He'll fix some things for you, if you ask.

My father until the day he died could not sleep through the night without nightmares of what he saw in war.

#18 | Posted by 726 at 2009-11-17 03:57 PM

I'm sorry to hear that, 726. I can't even imagine what he must have gone through. All I can do is be grateful for him and the other men like him who felt our country was worth fighting for.

Right after the Iraq clusterfuck started, Pat Robertson claimed Bush told him God said no American would die in the invasion. At the time, I thought Reverend Pat was just being his usual batshit crazy self.

Now I'm leaning towards him actually telling the truth.

If I was ever in war I would convince myself the enemies were all republicans. The killing would come easier.

Yet another report that makes claims without attribution; easy to do if no one can follow up to verify.

"...one prominent researcher who worked for the VA, and asked that he not be identified because he was not authorized to speak to the press," and felt strongly enough to speak any way; but too gutless to stand by what he says.

But, hey, if it bashes those you love to hate...party on, dude.

I can't even imagine what he must have gone through.

He never complained about it, never spoke of it, just walked the floors every night. His mom said he came home "different".

When he would talk about the Army it centered around playing softball with his friends, stealing general's jeeps and selling monkeys to the navy guys.

Once when he was dating my mom an army friend of his that was traveling with the circus invited him to attend a show. While there a man in the audience suffered a heart attack and died. My father used his medic training to try to save him. No matter how many times his friend came to town after that, he would not attend the circus. He said that he had seen enough death to last a lifetime.

Pat Robertson claimed Bush told him God said no American would die in the invasion.

Replacing one addiction with another is still an addiction.

Jackass is one pathetic individual. I really feel sad for you. As for getting rid of Christians, brace yourself,I've read the Book. We win.

Jackass is one pathetic individual. I really feel sad for you. As for getting rid of Christians, brace yourself,I've read the Book. We win.

What ridiculous book are you speaking about?

Republicans are crazy and evil. We have to find a way to reduce the Christian population.

#7 | Posted by jackass

"I like cheese. Oh look, a balloon!"

Wait, what?

My father-in-law, now 87, was involved in the invasion of Normandy and spent a couple of years in Europe fighting the Nazis. He's never been a big talker, but he has cancer now and has started to open up. After keeping quiet for 60+ years, he only recently started talking about his time with the Army. His stories are amazing. He told me about one time in Germany when he was running through snow-covered fields under heavy fire, watching his buddies getting shot or stepping on mines and wondering if he would survive. He's obviously handled it pretty well if he's gotten to his age and not needed a shrink, but his eyes get a little watery whenever he talks about it.

As for getting rid of Christians, brace yourself,I've read the Book. We win.

Everybody wins in the Special Olympics.

#30 | Posted by cbob

Tell him thanks for his service, cbob. My neighbor across the street died a few years ago at 85 or so. He was a tank platoon commander in Europe during The Battle of the Bulge. He had 3 tanks in his platoon, each with a crew of 5, and after the main battle they fought, he lost two tanks completely destroyed and his tank remainig but shot up and only him and 2 others alive in his tank. He described having to write 12 letters to the families of the in the freezing cold, trying to sleep in his freezing tank with his replacement crew, and wondering if he'd get the letters done before he himself died. He told me when I moved in 20 years ago that hated the cold with a passion, and I never knew why until he told me the story above not long before he died. I also never understood why he chose to live outside Boston and deal with winters when he returned from the war.

"If you'll think about it, having all the nations of the world come to the conclusion that they cannot afford the costs of war is a situation devoutly to be wished for."

No argument here.

"I've read the book, we win..."

Indeed.

The majority of Democrats are Christians. You guys need to accept that and rejoice in it. The atheist/agnostic vote gets you only so far.

I'm still wiating for the Brahma to come out of his lotus dream.

726 (#24) and CBOB (#30) --

I'm glad you are both being able to hear the stories your Dads had to tell about their time at war. Oftentimes it seems the worse the experience in the war, the less any of the family gets to hear about it. MURPHY's Dad only recently began to tell of his experience in the Viet Nam war.

"...He doesn't fix everything you ask Him for, but it's kinda comforting to think He'll fix some things for you, if you ask #19 | Posted by CalifChris..."

Oh yeah? Prove it!

"I've read the book, we win..."

Indeed. ..#34 | Posted by Zed "

Hey Moron:

In the stories I write, I win too!

But please, Masturbate all ya want...

The biggest threat to the world is Christians and Republicans.

A greater threat to this world is the compulsion to oversimplify every issue into an absolutist caricature of reality.

This nation is in grave danger of become overrun by their radical belief system.

Radicals are indeed a threat to our nation but the majority of Christians and Republicans are no better or worse than your average godless liberal. If there is a "silent majority," it is a diverse crowd of fairly decent people who don't mean ill toward anyone. They're not particularly silent, just disorganized and pitted against one another by extremists who only advance polarizing arguments.

We need to find a way of controlling their population. The eradication of Christianity should the goal of liberals everywhere.

Yes, and let's get rid of those pesky Jews while we're at it. And isn't it about time for the real Americans to exterminate the Muslims? Those Mexican Catholics, too? Fuck it. To hell with all the brown people, they believe in spooky shit. What do you want to do about the blacks, jackass? Some of them are liberals and Christians. Is the cognitive dissonance hitting you yet?

've been watching a History Channel special this week -- "World War II in High Definition"

Watching it right now.

Just finished reading "Flags of Our Fathers" for the second time. Those Marines went through hell.

Those Marines went through hell.

If you're in a position where you have the power to order men and women to endure that sort of hell, you should use it wisely.

That hasn't been the case for much of recent history.

My dad is 94 and spent 3-4 years in the Philippines and came out of it a major. At the end of the war they asked him to stay in and if he did, was told he would be given the rank of Lieutenant colonel--- he was only about 31 and just wanted out after what he had been through--- he didn't talk about any of it to our family until about 10 years ago. About 4 years ago the Library of Congress interviewed him on camera and put his story in the archives. After Pearl Harbor, my dad along with a number of buddies enlisted. He was a CHRISTIAN as were his friends and the reason why secularists like JACKASS (whose moniker fits him to a tee) are able to have the privilege to talk the inane drivel they do.

"Please masturbate all you want...."

I'll bet you say that a lot.

from the article: "Is religion an obstacle to treatment?"

It certainly is an obstacle to rational thinking, judging by the modern Conservative movement.

I watched the color films of WWII last night on History Channel, many shots of wounds and death.
I don't see how anyone could go to war and not be seriously effected. I'll never be in a war but just watching that last night gave me more than enough insight to, at least, recognize that war is a horrible thing for our soldiers to endure. We should be doing everything we possible can to help them avoid injury and to take care of them both physically and mentally when they come home.

#5 | Posted by danni

Well stated Danni. I personally hold our veterans above all other citizens.

Elected politicians are DEAD last - even behind the Felon Class which...

99.999999999999999999999999999
999999999999999999999999999999
99999999999999999999999999% ...

...of them would be themselves if only our so-called laws were equally applied.

On this site anything do to with religon is bad. But of you are a person with a half a brain, Jackass can count himslef out at this point,and if you do a little research you will find that religion involement is one aspect of increasing your chance of of a better outcome from your problems. Whether it be drugs, depression, divorce, or PTSD religion can be of significant benefit to the healing process. Feel free to ridicule me but not before you do a google search on any of the problems that our society faces and how faith can help heal.

I love when sweet sounding phrases like "benevolent God" are thrown around. I have a question for those of you who believe in that God: HAVE YOU READ THE BIBLE?

I grew up in a hardcore GARBC Baptist minister's home. After having read the Bible 7 or 8 times I can assure you that if belief in the God of the Bible is is necessary to get to heaven, about 144,000 people will end up in heaven, Fred Phelps being one of them. You can claim to believe in the Bible, but only freaks like Phelps are living it. The God of the Bible is a God of death and destruction. And don't give me crap about Jesus being the fulfillment of the Old Testament, like God somehow changed between the New and Old Testaments.

If Jesus is part of the trinity, he was there with a smile on his face licking his lips when infants were brained with rocks and when Jephthah sacrificed his daughter to Yahweh.

Soldiers who are questioning their faith as a result of war should probably stay away from the Bible if they're worried about PTSD flareups. Or maybe a new version of the Bible should be issued for them, one that only includes the Gospels.

Or maybe a new version of the Bible should be issued for them, one that only includes the Gospels.

#48 | Posted by Unisphere

Jefferson Wrote an interesting version of the Bible in an attempt to remove the Insanity part and keep the Good Morals stuff.

Thomas Jefferson believed that the ethical system of Jesus was the finest the world has ever seen. In compiling what has come to be called "The Jefferson Bible," he sought to separate those ethical teachings from the religious dogma and other supernatural elements that are intermixed in the account provided by the four Gospels. He presented these teachings, along with the essential events of the life of Jesus, in one continuous narrative.

I am pretty sure that the God of the Bible would sent him to "Hell" for his efforts though.

When these soldiers had their faith shaken, it apparently was severely shaken.

I realize what they had gone through were horrific experiences.

But if their faith had truly been strong and if they would have relied on God's promises, they would realize that they could get through anything knowing that Jesus lives in them, they are One with Him. Jesus never failed when He walked this earth and even in His death, He was victorious.

Therefore, anything that comes our way in life, we should know we will overcome them if we keep our faith.

That said....Bush should not have taken for granted that everyone's faith was strong and realized that there would be a lot of soldiers in need of help once they returned home. Unfortunately, I don't see them getting what they need.

I pray for our soldiers every day...for their safe return, for their health and for their strength.

He was a CHRISTIAN as were his friends and the reason why secularists like JACKASS (whose moniker fits him to a tee) are able to have the privilege to talk the inane drivel they do.
.......#43 | Posted by matsop

.....so what....

......I applaud your father's service, but what does his religion have to do with anything ??.....

.....he went to war because he was American, fighting for the country, there were also plenty of segregationists fighting for America during WW2, we are grateful for their service to America, but should we be quiet about segregation out of respect for their service ??......

But if their faith had truly been strong and if they would have relied on God's promises, they would realize that they could get through anything
.......#50 | Posted by Lisa

.....Major Nidal's faith was strong......

Lisa.....if you saw soldier with a broken leg, you would not advise him to pray, you'd say get the leg mended.

Mental breakdowns are the same thing, except worse, the damage is deeper, harder to find, harder to treat. When I used to work as a social worker, my job used to take me to mental hospitals, to process state benefits for the mentally incapacitatd. I saw firsthand that prayer won't fix mental breakdowns, any more than they fix a broken leg.

"I saw firsthand that prayer won't fix mental breakdowns, any more than they fix a broken leg."

Some would argue that prayer is necessary but not sufficient.

Some would argue that prayer is necessary but not sufficient.

#54 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine

....apply the logic to a broken leg.....

Some would argue that prayer is necessary but not sufficient.

Reality shows it to be neither. Spirituality is a coping strategy, not a cure.

I know a devout Christian who suffers from PTSD as a result of combat in Afghanistan. No amount of prayer - whether alone or in combination with the best modern medicine has to offer - has helped. Now he's a fucking alcoholic zombie who eats Klonopin all day. I imagine fear of hell is the only think keeping him from killing himself.

You miss my point. Look at prayer as a kind of focused meditation. Speaking of psychiatric patients only, if you do not believe you will heal, you are significantly less likely to do so, are you not?

It may be a placebo, but it can be an effective one.

Speaking of psychiatric patients only, if you do not believe you will heal, you are significantly less likely to do so, are you not?
57 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine

.....there is no evidence of that.......

Since Mind Body and Soul are connected it stands to reason that thinking You will get better and that You WILL heal from whatever malady affects You greatly enhances Your chances of healing and recovery. If You think negatively about Your malady You won't heal as fast or at all and subsequent death is surely to follow. It doesn't happen all the time but a good many a times it bears this to be true.

Larry

It doesn't happen all the time but a good many a times it bears this to be true.
......#59 | Posted by LarryMohr

.....and how many times have we discussed, in the past few months, situations where kids with diabetes, and other easily controlled medical problems, died because their parents preferred prayer over medicine ?....

.....their faith was always strong.....but the strength of faith, bears no relationship to its effectiveness in curing anything.......

No one says that medicine should be replaced with prayer, Skizz.

Those you reference should have been praying AND allowing medicine to be given to their children.

See herein lies Your problem Skizziks. It's the PARENTS who are doing the praying and not the sick person with the malady. Since the Parents soul can not physically connect to the sick child it's not as effective as if it is the childs praying and as Lisa says.

Larry

No one says that medicine should be replaced with prayer, Skizz.
.....#61 | Posted by Lisa

...if you go back to the start of the thread, that is what Bush's administration was saying to the damaged soldiers....

......that's how this whole discussion started....

See herein lies Your problem Skizziks. It's the PARENTS who are doing the praying and not the sick person with the malady. Since the Parents soul can not physically connect to the sick child it's not as effective as if it is the childs praying and as Lisa says.
.....#62 | Posted by LarryMohr

......who says the kid was'nt praying.?......

....and it did not happen just once, it happens over and over.......

....although we should be thankful that parents like that are taking their offspring out of the gene pool.......

Since the Parents soul can not physically connect to the sick child it's not as effective as if it is the childs praying and as Lisa says.

Or more plausibly, a parent's prayer on behalf of a child doesn't cause the child to enter the same mental state as the child praying for him or herself. It is far more likely that the altered mental state that is therapeutic, not the undetectable intervention of some mysterious entity.

What Hagbard said is dead-on, really. Meditation is a powerful psychotherapeutic tool. MDMA has been used as in psychotherapy sessions to trigger states of consciousness where patients are more aware of the thought processes and past events that contribute to their mental state. Studies in the US have shown promise, and research is ongoing around the world.

Studies in the US have shown promise, and research is ongoing around the world.
#65 | Posted by ZombieHunter

....I've read of some results that say prayer and attitude do not affect medical outcomes.....

.....however,the danger with believing that they can offer significant relief, is as with the soldiers coming home, that mental breakdowns are minimized (suck it up, soldier) and do not recieve the care they need, and the soldiers wind up living under a bridge.......

.....we all know that veterans make up a disproportionate number of the homeless....we have to beware that we don't contribute towards it by promoting prayer over medicine......

The Peace Drug

Post-traumatic stress disorder had destroyed Donna Kilgore's life. Then experimental therapy with MDMA, a psychedelic drug better known as ecstasy, showed her a way out. Was it a fluke -- or the future?

.....there is no evidence of that.......

Actually, that's not the case. For some, the degree to which you expect to recover can influence the speed of recovery. The brain is remarkably responsive to environmental stimuli. For some, the changes triggered by a traumatic experience can be counteracted by the changes brought on by meditation, trance, and chemically-altered states of consciousness. Prayer is one way of inducing that sort of state.

#68 | Posted by ZombieHunter

......perhaps you should look into some recent studies, the one I've linked to below actually indicates that the time people spend praying can make complications of recovery worse.....

......some of the online posted studies are from biased groups, but I have not seen any from medical groups that support the benefits of either prayer or meditation......

ttp://www.ahjonline.com/
article/PIIS0002870305006496/
abstract

Methods
Patients at 6 US hospitals were randomly assigned to 1 of 3 groups: 604 received intercessory prayer after being informed that they may or may not receive prayer; 597 did not receive intercessory prayer also after being informed that they may or may not receive prayer; and 601 received intercessory prayer after being informed they would receive prayer. Intercessory prayer was provided for 14 days, starting the night before CABG. The primary outcome was presence of any complication within 30 days of CABG. Secondary outcomes were any major event and mortality.
Results
In the 2 groups uncertain about receiving intercessory prayer, complications occurred in 52% (315/604) of patients who received intercessory prayer versus 51% (304/597) of those who did not (relative risk 1.02, 95% CI 0.92-1.15). Complications occurred in 59% (352/601) of patients certain of receiving intercessory prayer compared with the 52% (315/604) of those uncertain of receiving intercessory prayer (relative risk 1.14, 95% CI 1.02-1.28). Major events and 30-day mortality were similar across the 3 groups.
Conclusions
Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications.

"but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications."

.....this makes sense in light of the large number of people that die because they avoid medical care in favor of prayer......

I've read of some results that say prayer and attitude do not affect medical outcomes

That's correct, but you've been reading about intercessory prayer. When other people are praying for you, your state of consciousness is not altered so you are not going to experience any benefit.

the danger with believing that they can offer significant relief

I think everyone agrees on that. Only fools think that soldiers can simply pray the horrors of war away. Likewise, only fools would reject a valid psychotherapeutic tool because it is contrary to their ideology. MDMA and meditation don't work for every PTSD patient, as I've said before. They may not even work for a majority of them. That doesn't mean that a therapist should never consider these options. The treatment of most psychiatric conditions is a trial-and-error process where you begin with first-line therapies with the best track record of success and pursue alternatives if your initial attempts fail.

Post-traumatic stress disorder had destroyed Donna Kilgore's life. Then experimental therapy with MDMA, a psychedelic drug better known as ecstasy, showed her a way out. Was it a fluke -- or the future?

I'll go with the latter. Psilocybin, LSD, ibogaine, mescaline, MDA, MDMA, and some of the 2C series of phenylethylamines have all been tested in psychiatric patients with varying degrees of success. MDMA and psilocybin show the most promise for PTSD and depression. The few studies that have been conducted on ibogaine were very successful in treating opiate addiction.

I have long been interested in the phenomena known as the Placebo Effect. (Along with the Rumplestiltkin Effect) Here's a book and an article with some new findings.

"Long considered a fact of medicine and of clinical investigation, the placebo effect has recently been challenged. The thought of the great American psychologist and philosopher William James, particularly his understanding of the practical value of faith, helps to illuminate the nature of the placebo effect and the implications of this puzzling phenomenon for understanding healing and the practice of medicine."

we have to beware that we don't contribute towards it by promoting prayer over medicine

No sane person is suggesting that you promote prayer over medicine - that's Bush's idea, not mine.

If you have a patient who you are treating with "standard" therapies and you discover that he or she is believes that prayer can heal, there is absolutely nothing to lose by incorporating prayer into the therapeutic regimen. Same goes for meditation or MDMA-assisted psychotherapy. It is not the thearpist's place to push these additional treatment options. The patient has to already be receptive to them in order for them to work. The therapist should simply make the opportunity available if the patient expresses an interest.

Interesting stuff, Corky.

If you consider the 12 step program for addicts, this is a set of steps that are essential for the patient to consider a higher power. The reason for that is because it helps you unlock the desire that is already in you. You don't want to be an addict, but your physical desires override that. You have to have something that can override your physical desires. So you believe God can do that. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

PTSD is a serious mental condition that needs to be treated professionally not by witch doctors.

This is simply another example of the way the Bush/Cheney administration played the "God Card" at every opportunity. W even said God had told him to invade Iraq.

Now he's probably telling him how to get more a-holes to pay more to listen to his wisdom, which of course comes from the Lord. Fart jokes included.

Some anonymous guy? Yeah, how do we know he really exist?

Democrats are free to make shit up all day long as long as the sources don't really exist!

Democrats are free to make shit up all day long as long as the sources don't really exist!

Could it be that Buzkiller is finally catching on to the m.o. of the pathetic excuse for a news agency that is "Fox News"?

"If belief in God is necessary to get to heaven, I can assure you only 144,000 people will get to Heaven..."

If this is what you understood from your eight readings, a ninth attempt at the Bible was evidently required.

As for the rest, I'm pretty sure you were given cogent responses by many persons you knew. But you're an angry guy, this is evident. Try working on that. Maybe you won't chew on Jesus so much.