Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs
Tuesday, November 10, 2009

A former affiliate director for Planned Parenthood, the nation's largest abortion provider, says she decided she could no longer be part of the industry after she watched an ultrasound of a baby being aborted and realized it was fighting for its life.

Liberal Blog Advertising Network

Menu

Subscriptions

Author Info

The_Chapel

MORE STORIES

Special Features

Comments

Admin's note: Participants in the discussion of this weblog entry should note the site's moderation policy.

"I was just thinking, 'What am I doing here? What am I doing here? There was life in here and now there's not.'"

Gee, I think she may be onto something there.

www.wnd.com

What a sad story, and sad issue all together.

Little ones cry in the womb as well.

This poor little one was trying to get away--where was the protection?

Lump of tissue the abortionists will tell women and the public.

Liars.

Crying in the womb

dsc.discovery.com

www.medpagetoday.com

Awww...that's heartbreaking.

So it's alive. Take it out of the woman who doesn't want it and let it live. It's got all the rights in the world. so does the woman who doesn't want it inside her body. So take it out and let Murphy and Chapel take care of it.

Heartbreaking, yes. We as humans should not play God. But this is even more heartbreaking and you should know your tax dollars are paying for it, because you bought the fear card.

uruknet.com

Many more children will be born like this.

There are some job titles or positions where you would never expect a change of heart no matter the evidence. PP is very high on the list.

roe v wade. Roe was unexpected as well.

Yes the rights of the woman who doesn't want it in there.

She had the right to make the choices that lead to the conception of that baby. You would like her to have the "right" to choose to avoid the outcome of her choices.

There are plenty of people looking to adopt, why can't people choose to put their children up for adoption? Is it because it's easier to "just make the problem go away" than to live with our choices?

Today's Dilbert sums it up pretty well. the 'bag generation.

It it's unborn, it's not a baby. *sigh*

go to an ultrasound Pragmatist, and see if you still think that. If you do then we'll just have to disagree

I've been to many ultrasounds, KWR. I have two children, and my wife had one miscarriage (well, that we know of).

I guess we'll have to disagree. A heartbeat at 18 weeks (or whatever) is no indication of a _baby_ (to me). It's an indication of a heartbeat, a _beginning of life_. A spark really. I might agree that a fetus of a viable womb age (whatever that term is) could be called an "unborn baby" but not most fetuses.

I'm pretty sure science is with me on this one. "Unborn baby" strikes me as political language, not scientific language.

So tell me Prag--if a pregnant woman is murdered, how many lives were taken?

So take it out and let Murphy and Chapel take care of it.

#6 | Posted by TFDNihilist at 2009-11-10 11:14 PM |


Not a good idea. I'm pretty sure both of those idiots have problems even making it out the front door in the morning.

"So tell me Prag--if a pregnant woman is murdered, how many lives were taken?"

What does the law say? : )

I don't know. I've never murdered a pregnant woman.

Oh, I'm sorry; you wanted a straight answer?

I think it would depend on how pregnant she is. Er, how many months along. If I'm reading what I write right, then I'm saying that viability has something to do with it. Would you say that if a woman who is 8 weeks pregnant is murdered, two lives have been taken? If so, you have a serious sense of Truth, and beware the man who... Would you then ask to extend the law to cover murder of pregnant women with that in mind?

So if God allows a pregnant woman to die, has he murdered two people?

Ask a silly question, man...

Prag...left along those fetuses become?....

Better yet, a newborn left unattended will what...die.

The degree of 'life support' the mom is needed for varies...but it's life support, there really shouldn't be a debate whether that fetus is alive.

I think you are arguing that the mother has the right to remove life support by having the fetus removed.

Just own it, People want the right to remove life support from a fetus, because having a baby would be inconvenient. That's really the debate, framing it differently is allowing people to lie to themselves so they can live with the decisions they make. It is a selfish decision, we all make them all the time, and we all lie to ourselves to make ourselves feel better about it. This is really no different, just on a grander scale.

I'm pretty sure science is with me on this one. "Unborn baby" strikes me as political language, not scientific language.

#12 | Posted by pragmatist at 2009-11-11 11:26 AM | Reply |

She saw the baby trying to get away from the probe... that pretty much sums it up. 2 1/2 inches long with a barely formed anything was running from a probe... LOL....

Technically it was fighting for its life about as much as cancer does.

Knighthawk...

exactly how is that funny? Are you saying she is wrong...that's not what happened, so it's funny in that it's absurd that is what she is claiming. I mean you were obviously there, and know how it actually went down.

or, is what she saying correct...and it you find it amusing.

either way it doesn't reflect very highly on you that you'd find any portion of this topic amusing.

Ever been to an actual ultrasound?

#18 | Posted by kwrx25 at 2009-11-11 02:44 PM | Reply |

exactly how is that funny? Are you saying she is wrong...that's not what happened, so it's funny in that it's absurd that is what she is claiming. I mean you were obviously there, and know how it actually went down.

She was wrong. And going on about 13 week fetus "running from the probe" is terribly overly dramatic. I didn't need to be there, just like I didn't need to be in Africa this morning to know that the sun came up over the horizon. At 13 weeks you have no capacity to run anywhere, no jinking, no dodging, parrying, blocking, protesting, writing your congressmen, or anything otherwise. At best the notion of abortion and seeing the ultrasound sent her into a minor mental breakdown. But and I think you'd agree that write up wouldn't have had the same gut wrenching effect as proclaiming the baby was running from the probe of doom and fighting for its life.

or, is what she saying correct...and it you find it amusing.

By all means don't let me stop you from jumping to the most heinous conclusion. Although in the future I'm going to assume you drink the blood of aborted fetuses and ask for seconds!


Ever been to an actual ultrasound?

In fact I have, and I can tell you even at 3rd trimester they don't run from probes. Hell even when they're born they lack the capacity for self defense! You see what I'm getting at here?

I've seen my share too, and I've seen the baby moving at all stages, reacting to bright lights shown on the abdomen, loud sounds created to make an overly still one react, etc...

While there may have been some dramatic license taken, I also don't find it out of the realm of possibility to think that the fetus was reacting to the presence of the probe, possibly in what might have 'appeared' to be a defensive reaction.

To laugh her off of though is bit callus though, of the three of us... you, me, and her...she was the only one there.

"Technically it was fighting for its life about as much as cancer does."

Exactly, protozoans respond to stimulus, too.

What is life, anyway? What is sentience? What are we trying to preserve? (I'm not even going to indulge the dumb-ass statement about abortion being designed to avoid inconvenience.)

As for Johnson being there, so?

This reminds me of the "playing God" argument. Fuckin' fertility clinics are playing God too. Treating cancer is playing God. Taking a fucking aspirin is playing God. No, I'm not equating all those things. But the language is stupid. And if one is going to talk about "playing God," one should be damned sure one is clear about one's entire platform.

I've admitted I'm conflicted. I don't believe that anyone has the Truth on this one, and if they claim to, they're basically full of shit. A miscarriage is an abortion, too. If we're going all religious, consider that God is then a murderer. But see, it's okay--He is God, after all.

So yeah, believe what you wanna believe, but let these issues be resolved in court and in the legislative process.

Oh, well. I'm not worried about abortion becoming illegal without some sort of fundamentalist takeover. And that's hardly going to happen, anymore than Obama's presidency is going to result in a Chavez-style presidency for life. The country is divided, or less dramatically put, is made up of a wide range of citizens with a wide range of beliefs. The abortion argument will never die because the two sides, by and large, see no place for compromise.

While there may have been some dramatic license taken, I also don't find it out of the realm of possibility to think that the fetus was reacting to the presence of the probe, possibly in what might have 'appeared' to be a defensive reaction.

To laugh her off of though is bit callus though, of the three of us... you, me, and her...she was the only one there.

#20 | Posted by kwrx25 at 2009-11-11 03:44 PM | Reply |

"Reacting to something" is a bit different than running for your life from a probe of doom. Just so we are clear. The later shows "intent". Something a 13 week old fetus does not have the capacity for.

Callus would be laughing in her face as she sat in horror. But this is an article on WorldNutDaily, and this isn't some "the more you know" special. Or are you telling me that you are in fact the woman this article is about. In which case that would be callus, but hardly my fault since you didn't identify yourself as such.

Some people are scared of the dark. Doesn't make the boogey man pop into existance. If I showed up and got scared of the dark too. You know what? The boogey man still would not exist. But what if you showed up and there were 3 of us that got scared and I ripped off my leg to defend us? Yet again the boogey man would continue to not exist. But what if I beat the boogey man down with my leg that I tore off? You would call the cops on me for assaulting you with my torn off leg.

KH

did you read your last post, or did you just let the drugs take over as you typed?

WTF are you even talking about?

btw, you don't know what a 13 wk old fetus has the capacity for...I'm not saying it can show intent, but I don't KNOW that it cannot. We've learned a number of things about fetuses that had previously been known not to be possible...who know the next discovery might prove you wrong.

refute me more with some werewolf talk this time, I'm not a big boogeyman fan.

I've admitted I'm conflicted. I don't believe that anyone has the Truth on this one, and if they claim to, they're basically full of shit.

Interesting. You profess ignorance in regard to the nature of the fetus/unborn child; yet you do not see that ignorance as standing in the way of allowing some fatal action in regard to it.

Don't pull a Dick Cheney--if you are wielding life and death force, you need to know exactly what is down the end of your gun barrel.

Erring on the side of caution when ignorant would be the wiser choice.

BTW, you said earlier:

I'm pretty sure science is with me on this one. "Unborn baby" strikes me as political language, not scientific language.

Science can tell us the occurrence of certain developmental milestones--the beating of a heart, the presence of brain waves, etc.

It cannot tell us at what point and by what means a person becomes a person. That is a philosophical argument not a scientific one--thus the debate.

"Unborn baby" strikes me as political language, not scientific language.

Sadly, situational ethics of the pregnant women dictate the language rather than anything scientific or philosophical for that matter.

It is a fetus when it is not wanted and an abortion is planned, but it is an unborn child when it is wanted and the mother plans on bringing it to term.

The reality of the entity seems to be entirely subjective. Imagine if that power was granted to parents postpartum!

Perhaps science should examine the amazing properties of the birth canal. Somehow moving across it imbues an entity with personhood. It must be due to some bio-chemical process--no doubt.

Perhaps science should examine the amazing properties of the birth canal.

I'm not "science" but my "exams" have been "amazing".

I'm not "science" but my "exams" have been "amazing".

Ha, ha,

Perhaps this too should have been the joke.

Somehow moving across it imbues an entity with personhood.

That's probably why I call my member "Dick."

"Interesting. You profess ignorance in regard to the nature of the fetus/unborn child; yet you do not see that ignorance as standing in the way of allowing some fatal action in regard to it."

You do know what "conflicted" means, right?

Unlike some others, I don't profess to _know_; I don't speak for God; and I don't urge certain actions and choices on the populace.

And I'm pretty damned certain that a fetus is a fetus, not a person. I'm just not sure when that shift occurs. Your stuff about the birth canal is mildly amusing. Your point about why we have a debate is entirely valid, and much like what I have said over and over and over and over.

Until one side or the other, preferably both, is ready to have a real conversation, what the fuck is the point of any so-called debate?

"So take it out and let Murphy and Chapel take care of it.

#6 | Posted by TFDNihilist"

What? Oh, um, no. We're busy. You know, on the DR and stuff?

You do know what "conflicted" means, right?

Unlike some others, I don't profess to _know_; I don't speak for God; and I don't urge certain actions and choices on the populace.

Yes, I know what conflicted means, hence my point. Conflicted over the nature of this entity should naturally lead one to say no to abortion. Ignorance is not a foundation to justify the granting of the power over life and death.

No one, by the way, is asking you to speak for God. The abortion issue is not a religious one by necessity. It is a human one and thus does not require the belief in God to make it debatable.

What? Oh, um, no. We're busy. You know, on the DR and stuff?

Posted by mOntecOre at 2009-11-11 06:02 PM | Reply POSTED ON THE DR AND STUFF

"Yes, I know what conflicted means, hence my point. Conflicted over the nature of this entity should naturally lead one to say no to abortion. Ignorance is not a foundation to justify the granting of the power over life and death. "

Nope, it's a foundation on which not to force actions on others or to limit their freedoms. You know, sort of a libertarian perspective. Your interpretation vs. my interpretation. (shrug) In forming my choices and beliefs, my interpretation beats yours every time (until you force me to overturn mine by weight or brilliance of argument).

"No one, by the way, is asking you to speak for God. The abortion issue is not a religious one by necessity. It is a human one and thus does not require the belief in God to make it debatable."

No, but lots of people, here and otherwhere, are speaking for God. Or saying they do. Or saying what he or He wants, which is pretty much speaking for God. I was covering several categories there--that you are not among that category doesn't mean I'm wrong to bring it up.

Nope, it's a foundation on which not to force actions on others or to limit their freedoms. You know, sort of a libertarian perspective. Your interpretation vs. my interpretation. (shrug) In forming my choices and beliefs, my interpretation beats yours every time (until you force me to overturn mine by weight or brilliance of argument).

Not when the possible life or death of someone is the possible outcome of the action.

"Not when the possible life or death of someone is the possible outcome of the action."

Bullshit. "In forming MY choices and beliefs..." MY. And check again the nature of this debate: there is fundamental disagreement about what is life and about what is someone (a person). So by YOUR interpretation, I'm condoning murder. By MY interpretation, I am not.

So at three months, it's pretty clear to me (TO ME) that it ain't life yet. At seven months, I'm going the other way--it pretty clearly is life. Where the demarcation is--that's the problem. I don't see it as beginning at conception. I don't expect I ever will. My beliefs on abortion have not slipped into being unexamined.

Lucky for me, I don't have to make the decision. At this point in my life, I can't even imagine I'd ever even have to be party to the decision.

Prag:

If it's not murder, if there isn't anything wrong in having an abortion....why do you feel "lucky" in not having to make that decision???

Seems to me you would wrestle with the idea...why?

After all....it's not life yet, remember?

So what would cause the hesitation??

So by YOUR interpretation, I'm condoning murder. By MY interpretation, I am not.

You are condoning an action that by your own confession leaves you in uncertainty about what kind of life is being terminated.

Your lack of certainty, according to some quantifiable metric for gauging personhood, leaves the possibility that a human life is being taken during an abortion at any point in its development.

That you are not comfortable with your own position is not surprising considering what the possible implications are, yet that is where you are.

Where the demarcation is--that's the problem.

Well, that's the rub. Again you profess an ignorance as to knowing precisely what makes a person a person in this situation. Instead, you simply "know" when it is and when it isn't.

That's convenient in that it doesn't require a lot of messy, complicated justification.

Perhaps the parent of a born fetus simply knows that it is not a person. If it is not, as you would say, "clear to her that it is person," are you going to stand in the way of her rights over what came from her body? Or will you just have to to attribute it to that magic birth canal.

So at three months, it's pretty clear to me (TO ME) that it ain't life yet. At seven months, I'm going the other way--it pretty clearly is life. Where the demarcation is--that's the problem. I don't see it as beginning at conception. I don't expect I ever will. My beliefs on abortion have not slipped into being unexamined.

It's always life--a living thing. The question is when is it a person?

" The question is when is it a person?"

The question is pointless. There is no objective answer to that.

The word "person" is a human construct. It's up to humans to define that.

In utopia everyone would agree on the definition. In the real world we'll just have to take a vote.

" The question is when is it a person?"

That is certainly not the question. That is what the people who worship abortion want it to be.

It is life when conceived and if left alone as should happen then guess what happens?

Life in the womb blossoms into life out of the womb. Anything else is death to a living breathing heart pumping being.

The question is pointless. There is no objective answer to that.

If so, then the most inclusive definition would be the wisest one wouldn't you say?

In utopia everyone would agree on the definition. In the real world we'll just have to take a vote.

How fair is it that only those who are already "voted" to be human get to vote?

(Let's ask just the whites of the antibellum South to vote on whether blacks should be considered fully human.)

In general it is a comfortable and easy position to have as long as you are considered by the general population to be on the human side of the vote.

So if the vote comes in that newborns are not people, you would simply shrug your shoulders and say nothing. After all, how could you argue against it, since there is no objective answer.

In utopia everyone would agree on the definition. In the real world we'll just have to take a vote.

The vote is in by the way.

"A new Gallup Poll, conducted May 7-10, finds 51% of Americans calling themselves "pro-life" on the issue of abortion and 42% "pro-choice."

Will you now be arguing that abortion should be illegal?

"Let's ask just the whites of the antibellum South to vote on whether blacks should be considered fully human"

You're comparing black slaves with unborn fetuses?

This is why abortion debates are a waste of time.

You're comparing black slaves with unborn fetuses?

No, I am comparing the way your suggestion of how an ethic decisions should be made if applied to other ethical decisions.

If there is no objective criteria to establish personhood then there are potential other problems that you should consider.

As I said, it is easy to throw your hands up and say it is up to a vote, when you currently agree to the way things are.

This is why abortion debates are a waste of time.

Of course, it is far easier to retreat then address the implications of how you arrive at ethical decisons.

"If there is no objective criteria "

When there are objective criteria let me know. Until then, everything is just opinion, and it's mostly religious based opinion vs. secular opinion.

When there are objective criteria let me know. Until then, everything is just opinion, and it's mostly religious based opinion vs. secular opinion.

Thus we come to my central point.

(If there is no objective criteria for the unborn then there is no objective criteria for the post-partum, for that matter. That is a potentially dangerous position to hold.)

Since there is no objective criteria, you have to admit the philosophical possibility that a human life is taken during an abortion.

In our courts of law, we can only convict a person beyond a reasonable doubt. For you there can never be any certainty, yet you are willing to allow abortion despite the fact that reasonable arguments can be made to cast reasonable doubts.

The truth of the matter of the pro-choice crowd is that when you strip away the rhetoric, the fundamental argument for allowing abortion is not based upon any understanding of the fetus and its development, but on the fact that they want to allow abortion.

Their desire to be able to abort is their justification.

"Their desire to be able to abort is their justification."

Well that's your view. And those with your religious-based views will try to impose it on me through the law and I will do the opposite. Bad luck!

Donate to protect women's rights...

www.prochoiceamerica.org

Donate to protect women's rights...

only a retard would do that. they aren't being threatened.

#46 | Posted by eberly

If rtards got their way Johnny Bomb Bomb and the Crazy Bitch would have already got another anti-choice vote on the SCOTUS.

And those with your religious-based views

Religous based? What part of my arguments and debate have their origin in religion? Please point it out.

And those with your religious-based views will try to impose it on me through the law and I will do the opposite.

In the same way, I guess, that those with your views have imposed your will on millions of unborn with lethal results.

That you do not recognize them as people allows you to sleep at night, but keep in mind history is replete with societies that rested easy at night because they could justify their own brutal ethics.

If rtards got their way Johnny Bomb Bomb and the Crazy Bitch would have already got another anti-choice vote on the SCOTUS.

whatever. you don't know that there is even 1 "anti-choice" vote on the SCOTUS.

what a bunch of bullshit. abortion rights are not threatened and wouldn't have been with McCain in office.

It is absurd that you would believe that.

there are plenty of other things to worry about....abortion rights are not one of them.

" you have to admit the philosophical possibility that a human life is taken during an abortion."

It isn't worth debating, except for fun. Human beings define what the words "human" and "life" and "human life" mean. There are no objective criteria outside of humanity that defines those terms. You might just as well debate how many pins can be stuck in the nose of an angel.

How can anyone profess to know what another human thinks, believes, or has concluded, or how much time has been spent in those considerations?

Clearly, this Grendel character (named for a misunderstood monster or an assassin, depending on the allusion in play) believes he can know others. That's some fucked-up shit.

My mind is my own. That's really all I can say. I expressed my thoughts, openly and honestly, and you willfully twist or force reinterpretation of them. Really, that says more about you than it does about me.

I really don't have time to engage in back and forth that lasts long enough to satisfy your permutations and interpretations of my mind and my soul.

"You might just as well debate how many pins can be stuck in the nose of an angel."

I rather enjoyed that, Null. Thanks. : )

It isn't worth debating, except for fun. Human beings define what the words "human" and "life" and "human life" mean.

If your humanity was debated with the possible outcome having life and death consequences, I doubt you would think it was only worth debating for fun.

Your, it is all subjective position, comes from the comfortable position of knowing that our society currently affirms your humanity and treats it as an objective truth.

I really don't have time to engage in back and forth that lasts long enough to satisfy your permutations and interpretations of my mind and my soul.

Posted by pragmatist

When you're talking to Grendel, the underlying point is always that you're going to hell.

Just an FYI.

"what a bunch of bullshit. abortion rights are not threatened and wouldn't have been with McCain in office."

So you're in favor of abortion rights, Eberly?

" rather enjoyed that, Null. Thanks. : )"

You're an English teacher. I would hope so. :)

"If your humanity was debated with the possible outcome having life and death consequences, I doubt you would think it was only worth debating for fun."

If I wasn't born it really wouldn't bother me that much. Really.

How can anyone profess to know what another human thinks, believes, or has concluded, or how much time has been spent in those considerations?

I know what you think, by what you say. It is not that hard to do. But it is easier to make this statement than to address my points.

I really don't have time to engage in back and forth that lasts long enough to satisfy your permutations and interpretations of my mind and my soul.

Interesting, and a bit hypocritical. You castigate me for "professing to know what people think," but you seem to "know" my motivations for being here--that I engage in debates to satisfy my own "permutations and interpretations"--whatever that means.

So you're in favor of abortion rights, Eberly?

I wouldn't say that I cheer them but I respect the law of the land and recognize that to criminalize abortion would be pointless anyway.

If I wasn't born it really wouldn't bother me that much. Really.

No doubt. If someone killed you now, you wouldn't complain that your rights were violated.

But, of course, that doesn't mean they weren't.

"You might just as well debate how many pins can be stuck in the nose of an angel."

I happen to know the answer.

"You might just as well debate how many pins can be stuck in the nose of an angel."


I happen to know the answer.

42?

"I wouldn't say that I cheer them but I respect the law of the land "

In other words, you want to see Roe overturned. And you argue that Roe is in no danger of being overturned. It's probably a good strategy. Tell people that Roe isn't on the ballot each and every presidential election. Some people buy it.

LOL Chapel!

I was just happy to see he believes in Angels! : )

probably the most rational debate on abortion I have ever seen here.

Kudos

42?

#62 | Posted by Grendel

okay, you get credit for that one.

I happen to know the answer.

42?

#62 | Posted by Grendel

Nope, you dropped the last digit. 420.

Amen Sista.

Glad to see things are well for you.

In other words, you want to see Roe overturned.

no no no no. I'm just saying that to criminalize abortion on demand would create so many negative consequences that it wouldn't accomplish anything and wouldn't truly be a "pro-life" act.

Ok...believing is a stretch. How about mentioning?

Seems to me I know that line from somwhere, anyway.

And I do not divulge the communications I have between the Lord and myself.

Copyright infringement.(TM)

#68

Thanks sweetie!

Hope the same is true for you!! Especially the family!!!

I prayed for a long time after our last conversation...before you dropped out of sight.

I kept asking about you!!

Please don't do that again. I thought something bad happened.

"No doubt. If someone killed you now, you wouldn't complain that your rights were violated. "

No. Bad analogy. That would be different since I have experienced consciousness for decades. I sure in the hell would complain.

But if I had been aborted, I would never had had the consciousness to understand that I had been deprived of something.

Bad is a relative term for us.

God has His plans. And His ways to deal with stubborn folks. LOL.

And they do not preclude bad. How we handle "bad" is another story.

Isaiah 40:31

When you're talking to Grendel, the underlying point is always that you're going to hell.

Just an FYI.

That, of course, is based on nothing that I have said here or elsewhere. I have not talked about religion at all in regard to abortion. Nor will you find on any threads that I have written on, any assertion on my part that certain people will be damned.

Since it is an unsupportable statement, it reveals more about you than it does about me.

But your mother would Null and this decision is made a lot of times by someone other than the mother and she caves to pressure.

This disease, yes I think it is a sickness in our society, has ruined so many women's lives. Physically at times but much more often mentally and spiritually.

Ok, I know, I will get off the soapbox now.

But if I had been aborted, I would never had had the consciousness to understand that I had been deprived of something.

Had you been killed at a month old you would not have had the consciousness to understand what you have been deprived of.

An infant would not have such consciousness to understand its own existence. That, I believe, only comes with the acquisition of language.

Based on this, I suppose you could argue that newborns could be deprived of life without crossing any ethical boundary.

Your point is not a strong one.

"Nor will you find on any threads that I have written on, any assertion on my part that certain people will be damned."

This is true. Grendel and I have been jawing for years--under different names--and I've never seen any fire and brimstone stuff.

#62 | Posted by Grendel

okay, you get credit for that one.

Thanks.

I loved, Hitchhikers Guide. The first book was great, the others not as funny but still good.

This is true. Grendel and I have been jawing for years--under different names--and I've never seen any fire and brimstone stuff.

Thanks Nullifidian.

We can disagree, but we can be civil!

Hey Null,

I have to admit, I get a chuckle to see you and Ray go at it.

Going to turn in.

Good night all, and thanks for the debate. You all keep me thinking.

That is why I come here.

Cheers

"Based on this, I suppose you could argue that newborns could be deprived of life without crossing any ethical boundary."

Yes, you could, but it's irrelevant. Humans will determine those ethical boundaries subjectively based on the best of their ability and past experiences, just like they determine all other boundaries.

I have to admit, I get a chuckle to see you and Ray go at it.

don't forget Joe.

The first book was great, the others not as funny but still good.

#79 | Posted by Grendel

Agreed. It bothers me when new publications don't have "don't panic" on the cover.

That's when I start to panic.

"Based on this, I suppose you could argue that newborns could be deprived of life without crossing any ethical boundary."

I'd argue that birth is a much easier and more obvious line to draw with respect to this issue.

"That, of course, is based on nothing that I have said here or elsewhere."

That's why I used the word "underlying". But I shouldn't have even bothered to mention it, Grendel; I'm not here to argue with you and I wasn't even involved in the conversation.

"You're an English teacher. I would hope so. :)"

I'm so glad _someone_ is paying attention. (g)

+++++

"that I engage in debates to satisfy my own "permutations and interpretations"--whatever that means."

Didn't say that. But it is what you're doing with me. And I can't help you if you don't speak or read college-level English. Simply put, I have no time for someone who tries to turn my words around, doesn't appreciate honesty, and chooses which points to respond to while accusing another of not taking on his arguments.

That said, Grendel, "42?" was funny. Bully.

+++++

"Since it is an unsupportable statement, it reveals more about you than it does about me."

Bwahahahaha. Did I not say much the same thing about your words to me, O Grendel? Funny guy. You're learning.

Ah, well, I really don't much care. I'd rather argue about education.

I've been to many ultrasounds, KWR. I have two children, and my wife had one miscarriage (well, that we know of).
I guess we'll have to disagree. A heartbeat at 18 weeks (or whatever) is no indication of a _baby_ (to me). It's an indication of a heartbeat, a _beginning of life_. A spark really. I might agree that a fetus of a viable womb age (whatever that term is) could be called an "unborn baby" but not most fetuses.
I'm pretty sure science is with me on this one. "Unborn baby" strikes me as political language, not scientific language.
#12 | Posted by pragmatist at 2009-11-11 11:26 AM

I really don't know how to approach this delicately, so forgive me if I'm an asshat in this post.

A heartbeat indicates that organ is finishing preliminary development. Further, it really indicates a healthy progression of the basic nerves required to produce a beat, contracting in rhythm and sharing it's mothers nutrients throughout the tiny body. The womb also changes as the child nears it's correct size and the umbilical connection strengthens, sharing emotional states as well as physical with it's mother. The two beings actually grow together, not separately. The food that mother craves typically turns out to be an impulse from the unborn child - they share appetites and more. Other organs are also progressing their development as an entirely new human body - because it is. A living body. It's heart responding to the brain producing autonomic reflexive conditions indicates this process is normal, so we listen for it's regulation and know if it's in distress. The mother feels her baby kick eventually, but only because of it's size - the kicking and moving begins long before she can physically feel it. Life begins before a heartbeat, and it seems appropriate that it ends without one as well.

That said, I am for woman's right to choose to abort this process. The life she brings into this world is her choice. I also believe the vast majority of abortions can be avoided entirely with proper early education such as what Planned Parenthood provide. Abstinence Only has increased abortions and destroyed many young girls opportunities for a healthy family.

At 13 weeks, the fetus isn't even 3 inches long. I doubt it would be "fighting for its life".No developed eyes, no major organs developed--it is 3 inches of tissue with no capability of feeling pain--no connection between what brain it has and the spinal cord.

www.pregnancy.org

If you can't defend fetal life and have to resort to calling it a "baby" at 3 inches---you have no point.

Let's settle this once and for all:

According to this, life begins at 40.

Therefore, abortion should be legal for the first 163 trimesters.

End of debate.

I think a member posted this excellent intro: reading an ECG. Perhaps fetal bio-electric rhythms are a useful indication of when they potentially achieves cognizance? Internal fluctuations could show operation of any manner of critical functions such as mute, picture in picture, sport scent and the classic options, heat and massage. The third week it's acquired organs essential of an individual being. It could easily be considered immoral to cease their development without good cause past that point. Also, the female is now officially an expectant mother according to her menstruation cycle.

The Developing Fetus, Weeks 1-8

Week 3:
A third cell layer has appeared, roughly a "middle" layer. The inner, outer, and middle layers of cells are destined to become different tissues in the developing fetus, such as skin and nerves, intestines, and muscle. The heart has begun to pump; the brain and spinal cord begin as a tube-like structure. You miss your first menstrual period

Good post Redlight.

And I can't help you if you don't speak or read college-level English. Simply put, I have no time for someone who tries to turn my words around, doesn't appreciate honesty, and chooses which points to respond to while accusing another of not taking on his arguments.

Oh stuff and nonsense. It is much easier to deflect with such excuses after I signed off then enter a real debate.

You add some validity to that old chestnut--those who can't, teach.

Ha, breaking news!! It turns out this lady was not at an abortion at all, but watching a colonoscopy!!

LM

#89 | Posted by RevDarko at 2009-11-12 04:27 AM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

Maybe I am not on here enough anymore, but it's damn good to see you back out here sir!!

LM

"You add some validity to that old chestnut--those who can't, teach."

When you're ready to listen to what I have to say and to treat me with respect, let me know. I didn't deflect a damned thing, asshole. I spoke my piece openly and clearly. I don't wait till somebody signs off; how the fuck would I know if you've signed off?

And you can judge my teaching skill after you've taken a class with me, and only then.

Again, your reaction says a lot more about you than it does about me.

As long as women are treated as 2nd class citizens.
As long as you call them whores and sluts for being with child out of marriage, an un-natural demand.
As long as you think females should be subservient to males.

I detest abortion. Your mis-placed puritanical demands on my society are the larger cause, not the solution.

Stop abortion.
Kill a christian.

When you're ready to listen to what I have to say and to treat me with respect, let me know. I didn't deflect a damned thing, asshole. I spoke my piece openly and clearly. I don't wait till somebody signs off; how the fuck would I know if you've signed off?

More deflection, laced with swearing and an ad hominem to boot! (Obviously, I struck a nerve.) I will only teach you when you are ready, blather.

Here is lesson one. People are not assholes because they disagree with you.

There may be hard edge to my tone now, but that is only in response to your deflection and profanity.

Also, a teacher of English should know that when a writer turns to ad hominems or red herrings (I will only talk to you when you are ready) then they have essentially lost the debate.

I was here; I was ready. Null and I had a fine debate. We didn't agree, but that is fine with me. I still respect, Null.

By the way, you would know I signed off because I posted that I did. (post 82) Perhaps this signals the amount attention you give to my posts. Why should I even take you seriously if you are not going to read what I write?

If you review our exchanges, you will see that I engaged your ideas and challenged them. You in turn return with increasing hostility and the "what's the point of arguing" motif.

You said I should take your class before I judge your teaching. Fair enough. I just can't help but wonder if the above is how you handle your students when they challenge you.

I will you grant you that at this point there is no point in arguing. There is no point of debating if you response is to claim some kind of smug, higher intellectual ground by not entering into a debate. It is a well known smoke screen for "I am in over my head" and I need to make an exit and save face.

Enjoy your classes.

Little ones cry in the womb as well.
.........#3 | Posted by MURPHY

......they also get together and have fetal "Dancing With The Stars" competitions.....

......they're so cute with their little dancing shoes on......

They also tumble away from a flashlight when one is shone on the mother's belly.

Blah blah blah. Blah blah blah. Blah blah blah.

Thanks, I will enjoy my classes.

I wonder if you know the difference between ad hominem attacks and honest observation and assessment of behavior. But as I said many posts back, I don't have time for you. That's not fear, nor is it deflection; it's giving up on fruitless interaction.

(shrug)

Maybe one day we'll have a more fruitful discussion. It won't be in this thread. Given that you are clearly not a fool nor stupid, I feel sad that it went this way.

Given your ongoing prodding, I don't feel bad at all.

Oh, and I never said you were an asshole because you disagree; I said you're an asshole for other, clearly stated reasons.

Oh, well. Moving on.

......they're so cute with their little dancing shoes on......

#97 | Posted by skizziks at 2009-11-12 10:42 AM | Reply | Flag: approaching humanity level of HERM

Good thing your mother felt differently about you huh skizz? Of course in your case, perhaps she made a mistake.

Abortion supporters should be forced to watch an abortion live - and those who want an abortion should be shown video prior to obtaining said abortion.

You are a sick bastard skizz - go play in hades with HERM

Perhaps anti-choice advocates should be raped by their daddies and forced to conceive.

I know very few people that are pro-abortion.... maybe pro abortion rights, or more correctly, pro-choice.

It is anti-choice types who prefer dictating to women their choice rather than letting them have their rights as a citizen.

Of course, if they spent even a fraction of the time they spend bitching and whining about other people's choices actually trying to make abortions more rare thru education, contraception, and protection for women, then they might accomplish something.

You are a sick bastard skizz - go play in hades with HERM
.......#100 | Posted by ELCIDCE90

.......the abortion debate is over, the Supreme Court says it is a right protected by the constitution.......so get over it........

......why is still being beaten like a horse that died 35 years ago ??...because the Republicans can get VOTES with this red herring, from dumb Bible thumpers like you.......

.....and what did these Republicans do about abortion when they had the administration, senate and house ?.....nothing......and they never will....it is like an irrestitable lure for fish, that provides pro-life voters by the boatload, without the need to develop real policies, or to stand for anything.......

......its enough for them to yell "ABORTION" and "GAY MARRIAGE" and the fishy base falls in line to vote for the Party of No .......

......you are being played for suckers.......

Corky,

I'm not advocating that women be denied their choice.

just that if they choose to have sex without a form or protection in place that they then deal with the ramifications of that choice, and not call aborting a life a choice...the choice was already made.

you raise, rape...and I'll add medical problem for the mothers. I consider those cases that lie outside the 'choice' debate, and that discussion gets difficult very quickly.

I'm looking at the abortion as birth control issue

You may want to consider looking at a few Amendments to the Constitution, like the 9th, 14th, and 4th. Perhaps that will help.

"Women are, obviously, known human persons. They make up the majority of known human persons. Human persons have rights that an embryo or fetus does not have until its personhood can be established. For various reasons, the personhood of a fetus is generally understood to commence between 22 and 24 weeks. This is the point at which the neocortex develops, and it is also the earliest known point of viability--the point at which a fetus can be taken from the womb and, given the proper medical care, still have a meaningful chance of long-term survival. The government has a legitimate interest in protecting the potential rights of the fetus, but the fetus itself does not have rights prior to the viability threshold.

So the central thrust of Roe v. Wade is this: Women have the right to make decisions about their own bodies. Fetuses, prior to viability, do not have rights. Therefore, until the fetus is old enough to have rights of its own, the woman's decision to have an abortion takes precedence over the interests of the fetus. The specific right of a woman to make the decision to terminate her own pregnancy is generally classified as a privacy right implicit in the Ninth and Fourteenth Amendments, but there are other constitutional reasons why a woman has the right to terminate her pregnancy. The Fourth Amendment, for example, specifies that citizens have "the right to be secure in their persons"; the Thirteenth specifies that "{n}either slavery nor involuntary servitude ... shall exist in the United States." Even if the privacy right cited in Roe v. Wade were dismissed, there are numerous other constitutional arguments that imply a woman's right to make decisions about her own reproductive process.

If abortion were in fact homicide, then preventing homicide would constitute what the Supreme Court has historically called a "compelling state interest"--an objective so important that it overrides constitutional rights. The government may pass laws prohibiting death threats, for example, despite the First Amendment's free speech protections. But abortion can only be homicide if a fetus is known to be a person, and fetuses are not known to be persons until the point of viability."

civilliberty.about.com

Thank you, Corky. This lays out the viability argument on which most of my feelings and opinions on the matter depend.

Sadly, I didn't have or make the time to fully develop my points to the satisfaction of all my interlocutors.

You're velcome...

That's great Corky...

why didn't someone long ago just say the we have the right to be secure in our persons.

That completely clears it up for me...

Here I thought that the woman made a choice to engage in sexual activity, knowing that becoming pregnant was real possibility, and did indeed become pregnant.

Now there is a life that depends on her so that it might grow, and thrive... but that might imped her right to be secure in her person....

okay...

-why didn't someone long ago just say the we have the right to be secure in our persons.

They did, in that ammendment.

just that if they choose to have sex without a form or protection in place that they then deal with the ramifications of that choice,

How many men will be made to deal with THEIR choice of having unprotected sex in an amount equal to the women?

How many men will be made to deal with THEIR choice of having unprotected sex in an amount equal to the women?

#109 | Posted by 726 at 2009-11-12 04:26 PM | Reply

None of them. That's why the onus is on the woman to insist. She, and she alone bears the consequences of not using it.

......its enough for them to yell "ABORTION" and "GAY MARRIAGE" and the fishy base falls in line to vote for the Party of No .......

And when the Gnoppers have complete control of all three branches, they still fail to address the issue.

The abortion issue is more important than the aborted babies to the Gnop and anyone that votes for them because of that issue is a fool.

She, and she alone bears the consequences of not using it.

Is that right?

I find it extremely biased to say that the woman alone should bear the responsibility.

I find it extremely biased to say that the woman alone should bear the responsibility.

#112 | Posted by 726 at 2009-11-12 04:30 PM | Reply

Nature is biased, not me. They're the ones that get pregnant, not the guy.

Besides, on a side note (and not being argumentative, because I don't care one way or another about aabortion) the argument is "it's their body" when it comes to abortion. It's their decision. So why is that all on them, but the unprotected sex itself should be shared?

726,
I'm probably not doing a good job of explaining my position.
The woman is the one that carries and cares for that fetus/cells/baby for 9 months. She bears that burden, not the guy. If she wants to avoid that burden, she needs to insist on protection.
The guy doesn't need to, or have to do anything for that time frame. Heck, is he even obligated to help with co-pays or anything?

Common sense would dictate that unless she wants that burden, she should insist on birth control.

You may want to consider looking at a few Amendments to the Constitution, like the 9th, 14th, and 4th. Perhaps that will help.
"Women are, obviously, known human persons. They make up the majority of known human persons. Human persons have rights that an embryo or fetus does not have until its personhood can be established. For various reasons, the personhood of a fetus is generally understood to commence between 22 and 24 weeks. This is the point at which the neocortex develops, and it is also the earliest known point of viability--the point at which a fetus can be taken from the womb and, given the proper medical care, still have a meaningful chance of long-term survival. The government has a legitimate interest in protecting the potential rights of the fetus, but the fetus itself does not have rights prior to the viability threshold.
So the central thrust of Roe v. Wade is this: Women have the right to make decisions about their own bodies. Fetuses, prior to viability, do not have rights. Therefore, until the fetus is old enough to have rights of its own, the woman's decision to have an abortion takes precedence over the interests of the fetus. The specific right of a woman to make the decision to terminate her own pregnancy is generally classified as a privacy right implicit in the Ninth and Fourteenth Amendments, but there are other constitutional reasons why a woman has the right to terminate her pregnancy. The Fourth Amendment, for example, specifies that citizens have "the right to be secure in their persons"; the Thirteenth specifies that "{n}either slavery nor involuntary servitude ... shall exist in the United States." Even if the privacy right cited in Roe v. Wade were dismissed, there are numerous other constitutional arguments that imply a woman's right to make decisions about her own reproductive process.
If abortion were in fact homicide, then preventing homicide would constitute what the Supreme Court has historically called a "compelling state interest"--an objective so important that it overrides constitutional rights. The government may pass laws prohibiting death threats, for example, despite the First Amendment's free speech protections. But abortion can only be homicide if a fetus is known to be a person, and fetuses are not known to be persons until the point of viability."
civilliberty.about.com
#104 | Posted by Corky at 2009-11-12 01:57 PM

Does the amendment interpret incomplete or physiologically different or retarded fetal development as incapable of surviving on it's own, thus deserving of no individual protection past it's 22 or 24 week of development or is that more like a general guideline?

Also, once the fertilized material is attached to the placenta it's going to form a child. Thus, it's a arguably a person at an earliest stage of development. The neocortex appears to be the legal standard for designating the status of personhood. That could be challenged from my first question regarding accelerated, different or retarded development altering the 22-24 week rule.

Imo "viable removal" does not indicate personhood of the organism, merely the advancement of the technology. This is another reason why abortions should be performed with the utmost of technological knowledge, as early as possible if at all. Minimize the risk of destroying cognizant life and reduce damage to the female having the procedure and begin PTSD treatment including family counseling.

In my stupid mind I always associate the clergy with post-life and pre-birth ceremonies. They should be there to celebrate the sacred moment of new life and provide comfort throughout the trauma of abortion, not to ritualize procreation or limit our understanding of sexual responsibilities.

I find it extremely biased to say that the woman alone should bear the responsibility.

#112 | Posted by 726 at 2009-11-12 04:30 PM | Reply | Flag:

Do you have the same bias when it comes to determining if the child should be born? Does the father have a say? No. Then STFU with your woman's rights issue. She either has control of what happens to her body or she doesn't.

Legs crossed=no baby. Works 99.999999999999999% of the time - only one exception to the rule so far.

"only one exception to the rule so far."

Tell that to a rape victim.

"They also tumble away from a flashlight when one is shone on the mother's belly."

Impressive, I have gone to school with kids who never learn how to tumble.

LM

"arguably a person" doesn't seem to appear in any of the Amendments.

Tell that to a rape victim.

#117 | Posted by Danforth at 2009-11-12 06:27 PM | Reply | Flag:

What? A rape victim became pregnant without sex?

Comments are closed for this entry.


Drudge Retort

Home | News | Comments | User Blogs | Nooner | Back Page | RSS Feed | RSS Spec | DMCA Compliance | Copyright 2012 World Readable