A beloved teacher --he should be fired.

This is not appropriate for 11th graders in an English class.

Koko knows what to do.

"This is not appropriate for 11th graders in an English class.

#1 | Posted by MURPHY at 2009-11-09 09:24 PM | Reply | Flag: WOULDN'T KNOW, NEVER GOT PAST 8TH GRADE

Hey, Murph--did you read the story? I didn't.

But hey, at least it wasn't about homosexuality in the animal kingdom...

(No, I wouldn't assign such a story, even to Honors students. But that's not 'cause I think it's wrong, rather that I know it wouldn't fly in my school. It's about the culture, stupid.)

Hey, Murph--did you read the story? I didn't.

But hey, at least it wasn't about homosexuality in the animal kingdom...

(No, I wouldn't assign such a story, even to Honors students. But that's not 'cause I think it's wrong, rather that I know it wouldn't fly in my school. It's about the culture, stupid.)
#6 | Posted by pragmatist at 2009-11-09 10:36 PM

No, it's about the stupid culture.

To clarify, here's a bit about the culture you ignored:

.. The suspension has the student body up in arms, leading to a letter-writing campaign to Schools Chancellor Joel Klein and the creation of a "Save Mr. V" page on Facebook.

Students last week said they were appalled that school officials had acted so prudishly.

"We're not little kids. We are in high school," said 15-year-old junior Omar Caminero. "It's not like we've never read anything like that -- we have."

"He didn't mean it to be anything other than something we could learn from," said junior Frankchesca Jimenez, 16.

A spokeswoman for the DOE declined to comment.

Schwartz stopped short of calling the story inappropriate but said he was required to act.

"I deemed for someone else to decide whether it was inappropriate," he said. "I had to report it. .."

More christian sharia.

A beloved teacher --he should be fired.

This is not appropriate for 11th graders in an English class.

Another voice from the puritanical sex is dirty crowd.

Jeepers, an english teacher having students read a story.... the HORROR! Can't have that now. Keep em locked up and dumb! It is the ultra conservative way!

More christian sharia.

#9 | Posted by klifferd at 2009-11-10 07:59 AM | Reply | Flag:

A beloved teacher --he should be fired.

This is not appropriate for 11th graders in an English class.

Another voice from the puritanical sex is dirty crowd.

Jeepers, an english teacher having students read a story.... the HORROR! Can't have that now. Keep em locked up and dumb! It is the ultra conservative way!

#10 | Posted by 726

That's right!! All schools should have their students read stories about sticking carrots up one's bums. Hell, let's start with the younger kids and substitute baby carrots. That would be so cuuuuuute!

Where do you Idiots get off thinking that this is somehow appropriate and even useful for kids? What, these kids gonna gets jobs stuffing carrots up people's arses? Is there a degree to earn for this? B.A., or would that be B.S., in Professional Carrot Insertion.

This teacher, judging from the article, acted quite stupidly in his choice of reading material. So much great literature and this is what he chooses? He should be terminated on the grounds of stupidity alone.

......who has not gotten to grade 11 without masturbating ?....by that time half the kids have already had sex.......

The percentage of high school students who have had sexual
intercourse increases by grade. In 2003, 62 percent of 12th
graders had had sexual intercourse, compared with 33 percent of
9th graders.4
Data about teens' sexual experiences other than intercourse are
more limited. In 1995, 53 percent of teen males aged 15-19 said
they had been masturbated by a female (an increase from 1988);
49 percent had received oral sex; 39 percent had given oral sex;
and 11 percent had engaged in anal sex.

Hey, Red--I hope you weren't smacking me around with your comment about culture. I meant that in the culture of my town and school, I would not force students to read such a text. I get to choose, and I choose that such a text is inappropriate. For my students. For other students, I might feel differently.

And when I said to Murph I hadn't read the story, I meant the assigned story, not the article.

You really have to hand it to this guy. What a jerkoff!

When his suspension is lifted I bet no-body shakes this guys hand.

The story -- written for Playboy magazine -- ...discusses a teenage boy's use of a carrot in a sex act on himself and autoerotic asphyxiation.

The school's principal, Evan Schwartz, stopped short of calling the story inappropriate but said he was required to act.

"I deemed for someone else to decide whether it was inappropriate," he said. "I had to report it."

What a great leader the school has. He couldn't determine if it was appropriate for 8th graders to hear about a guy sticking a carrot up his ars and choking himself....

#12 | Posted by skizziks at 2009-11-10 09:49 AM | Reply

Believes what 8th-12th graders would say about sex in a survey.

Whatever you do, don't talk about it, read about it or do it. It should be illegal, but soo difficult to enforce, at least until we get better technology.

Given the arguments our current culture is having on sexual issues, sanitizing HIGH SCHOOL material of anything sexual in learning material is unwise.

HOWEVER

While I feel it appropriate to cover material pertinent to current cultural issues, IT IS UNPROFESSIONAL AND "EXTREMELY" IMMORAL FOR A TEACHER TO USE THE OCCASION TO PRESS HIS/HER OWN VIEWS. This does not mean hiding your views, but if a pro or anti gay teacher makes a focus of teaching with intent to change, rather than teaching with intent to examine academically, that teacher SHOULD BE FIRED.

In all such cases, a PROFESSIONAL educator would make damn sure that material from leading point of view that he/she did NOT agree with were fairly presented.

And as I've said before, maintaining a steady communication with parents is wise. Getting face time with 90% of parents is not too hard. Getting face time with last 10% is a royal pain, but it is time and effort well spent. If you send notes home, or even e-mails, presenting your teaching philosophy for controversial issues, maybe a third will really read it with understanding. Get the face time, THEN send the written material to the parents.

The key, is to be sure the parents understand that you will not tolerate anyone speaking AS AUTHORITY in the classroom pronouncing something such as homosexuality to be evil, or to be normal, but that you will DEMAND that your students examine the subject academically, which does NOT mean approved PC, or approved religious material, but BOTH (and probably some other material too.....).

Not all parents will approve of ANY controversial issue they dont approve of (which would butcher the concept of meaningful study...). Many parents will approve, if grudgingly, once assured that the classroom is NOT an indoctrination center. If you prepare your ground well, "when" some parent makes a problem, you will, by preparation, be on firm ground.

You can't teach good history without covering currently contentious issues, and English is almost as prone to the same issues, and sometimes MORE prone. A good teacher can't be coward. Having said that, blind siding parents is a recipe for trouble. Blind siding parents is so stupid I'd call it grounds for firing EVEN IF the material was covered correctly.

@ZOT: You obviously read at a very immature level.

1) Your extension from 11th graders to toddlers is illogical and invalid. There's a decreasing level of appropriateness. And you visualization of toddlers sticking carrots in their backsides borders on pedophilic tendencies. The story is/was not about toddlers, so don't make that jump. Stick to what it IS about.

2) Only a simple minded person would limit themselves to thinking that the purpose of reading any given book/story/poem is the superficial interpretation or taking the story as nothing more than the literal words written. English class assignments are about layers of meaning, writing styles and even variations in subject matter. As such, a fringe novel is absolutely appropriate.

Do you think Beowulf is really about a mystical monster that terrorizes a danish clan? Do you think that Metamorphosis is REALLY about a guy who turns into a bug? IF all you know is pulp fiction and "romance" novels, then you really have no clue about literature, and I would expect this kind of response from your underdeveloped mind.

The only mistake the teacher made was in assuming ALL of his students were mature enough to handle the subject matter without a beavis-and-buttead-esque response, or a crying to mommy about dirty words.

Perhaps you can join the narrow-viewed, literal minded parents in a book-burning. After all, kids should only be reading "See Spot Run" and The Bible, right? Anything provocative and unique should be banned.

Can some one please give me this guy's number. I'd like to date him.

- Carrie "dildo me hard" Prejean

A beloved teacher --he should be fired.

This is not appropriate for 11th graders in an English class.

#1 | Posted by MURPHY at 2009-11-09 09:24 PM |

Don't be ridiculous, most boys have been masturbating for 3-5 years by 11th grade.

I just came from my son's teacher parent conference and one of his teachers was laughing, telling me that she had to move this one little girl to a different area in the room.

My son pouted, she said.

When she moved her back to the desk next to my son...he was all smiles.

Apparently his hormones are already jumping....and he's 9.

Back to topic...Although I agree that this reading isn't appropriate for schools, you can't deny that hormones don't start raging at an early age.

for goodness sakes they should be reading classics like Romeo and Juliet instead, you know the book chock full of sex between 13 year olds who end up commiting suicide.

Throwing maidens up against the wall
Naked weapons
Juliet falling backward (having sex)
Lost her virginity at 12
Quivering thigh and the demenses that there adjacent lie
the prick of noon
etc

@ZOT: You obviously read at a very immature level.

1) Your extension from 11th graders to toddlers is illogical and invalid. There's a decreasing level of appropriateness. And you visualization of toddlers sticking carrots in their backsides borders on pedophilic tendencies. The story is/was not about toddlers, so don't make that jump. Stick to what it IS about.

2) Only a simple minded person would limit themselves to thinking that the purpose of reading any given book/story/poem is the superficial interpretation or taking the story as nothing more than the literal words written. English class assignments are about layers of meaning, writing styles and even variations in subject matter. As such, a fringe novel is absolutely appropriate.

Do you think Beowulf is really about a mystical monster that terrorizes a danish clan? Do you think that Metamorphosis is REALLY about a guy who turns into a bug? IF all you know is pulp fiction and "romance" novels, then you really have no clue about literature, and I would expect this kind of response from your underdeveloped mind.

The only mistake the teacher made was in assuming ALL of his students were mature enough to handle the subject matter without a beavis-and-buttead-esque response, or a crying to mommy about dirty words.

Perhaps you can join the narrow-viewed, literal minded parents in a book-burning. After all, kids should only be reading "See Spot Run" and The Bible, right? Anything provocative and unique should be banned.

#20 | Posted by unklegwar

Way to go!!! You've intimated that I am immature, that I have pedophile tendencies, simple-minded, narrow-minded, book burner, Bible thumper, syllabic-ally challenged, etc., etc. That's pretty damn amazing.

I can sum up you in one three-syllable word: Idiot.

Too much? How about two syllables: Moron.

"The only mistake the teacher made was in assuming ALL of his students were mature enough to handle the subject matter without a beavis-and-buttead-esque response, or a crying to mommy about dirty words."

That type material is not at all appropriate for any age group in the schools. Period. It's a shame liberal thought morons such as yourself can't grasp that.

There is a wealth of wonderful literature out that that spans the centuries. Guts ain't it, y'a moron.

He couldn't determine if it was appropriate for 8th graders to hear about a guy sticking a carrot up his ars and choking himself....

#16 | Posted by slicksterWilly at 2009-11-10 10:28 AM | Reply

Never mind that it was an 11th grade class. Feel free to make up more facts to support your arguement.

I can't believe that so many people on this thread think that whether or not an 11th grader has been exposed to something is the standard by which you judge whether it needs to be taught in English class.

Sure, most of these kids have probably seen/done/heard alot worse.

But that doesn't mean that anything Palahniuk has written should be the focus of an English class.

The guy has some interesting ideas but he's not a particularly good writer and he relies heavily on the cheap tactic of being pretentiously "shocking".

I'm sure they've all seen a dog take a shit too but that doesn't mean you spend class time discussing it.

This is not appropriate for 11th graders in an English class.

#1 | Posted by MURPHY at 2009-11-09 09:24 PM

Muffy's having a flash back to one of her booze fueled high school "sleepovers".

Big deal. Raise your cyber hand if you hadn't discovered masturbation by the 11th grade.

"The story -- written for Playboy magazine -- discusses a teenage boy's use of a carrot in a sex act on himself and autoerotic asphyxiation."

Wrong material to be promoting to children.

From the article:

Schwartz stopped short of calling the story inappropriate but said he was required to act.

"I deemed for someone else to decide whether it was inappropriate," he said. "I had to report it."

Talk about a chickenshit Principle. The guy won't even take a stand.

He couldn't determine if it was appropriate for 8th graders to hear about a guy sticking a carrot up his ars and choking himself....
......#16 | Posted by slicksterWilly

........sounds like a lot of work.......

......ambidextrous auto-eroticism......

That type material is not at all appropriate for any age group in the schools. Period. It's a shame liberal thought morons such as yourself can't grasp that.

There is a wealth of wonderful literature out that that spans the centuries. Guts ain't it, y'a moron.

#25 | Posted by ZOT

so you are NOT ok with Romeo and Juliet which was about 13yr old girl having sex.

please state definitively that 11th graders should not be taught Romeo and Juliet.

Handing out a story about masturbation to a generation of students who are blowing each other in stairwells during class change is not exactly the biggest freakin' deal I've ever heard of.

And I don't think restricting them to Silas Marner is going to change them, either.

Totally inappropriate. Especially considering the popularity of the choking game among teens.

A friend of mine, when he was thirteen years old he heard about "pegging." This is when a guy gets banged up the butt with a dildo. Stimulate the prostate gland hard enough, and the rumor is you can have explosive hands-free orgasms. At that age, this friend's a little sex maniac. He's always jonesing for a better way to get his rocks off. He goes out to buy a carrot and some petroleum jelly. To conduct a little private research.

...

At home, he whittles the carrot into a blunt tool. He slathers it with grease and grinds his ass down on it. Then, nothing. No orgasm. Nothing happens except it hurts.

Then, this kid, his mom yells it's suppertime. She says to come down, right now.

He works the carrot out and stashes the slippery, filthy thing in the dirty clothes under his bed.

...

This Navy brother says how Arab guys get their dick hard and then insert this metal rod inside the whole length of their boner. They jack off with the rod inside, and it makes getting off so much better. More intense.

...

This must be why girls want to sit on your face. The suction is like taking a dump that never ends. My dick hard and getting my butt eaten out, I do not need air. My heartbeat in my ears, I stay under until bright stars of light start worming around in my eyes. My legs straight out, the back of each knee rubbed raw against the concrete bottom. My toes are turning blue, my toes and fingers wrinkled from being so long in the water.

And then I let it happen. The big white gobs start spouting. The pearls.

Seriously, people, you want kids reading that in school?

When I become an English teacher, my students will be exposed to nothing beyond the audio books of Winnie The Pooh as read by Sterling Holloway. We'll have none of the Disney-era abominations of this beloved icon.

Anything else is simply too much for their delicate sensibilities.

Anything else is simply too much for their delicate sensibilities

----

Yea, cause we know this is appropriate subject matter to learn in school...

That's all this soup of blood and corn, shit and sperm and peanuts floating around me. Even with my guts unraveling out my ass, me holding onto what's left, even then my first want is to somehow get my swimsuit back on.

God forbid my folks see my dick.

My one hand holding a fist around my ass, my other hand snags my yellow-striped swim trunks and pulls them from around my neck. Still, getting into them is impossible.

You want to feel your intestines, go buy a pack of those lamb-skin condoms. Take one out and unroll it. Pack it with peanut butter. Smear it with petroleum jelly and hold it under water. Then, try to tear it. Try to pull it in half. It's too tough and rubbery. It's so slimy you can't hold on.

A lamb-skin condom, that's just plain old intestine.

Sex isn't dirty, but there are dirty sex stories. And this is one of them. Poor judgment on the part of the teacher.

Would you Libs be so forgiving were this teacher to have them read the Bible instead? Hypocrites.

If a teacher is covering stuff like that in class, and has not made damn sure that parents are aware of his methods and range of materal, he DESERVES to get fired.

Blind siding parents with PLANNED material = too stupid to teach.

Perhaps he has an actual educational objective in mind, but if he blind sided the parents with extreme material that he handed out, it does not matter if their was real education going on.

If such material was 'typical' of his class, thats also OK, if, and ONLY IF, parents KNEW it was typical.

No teacher can, or should, have to brief parents on every little possible subject that will end up in the day's plan. But the parents damn well deserve to know the range of material, and notice about special material.

And if the parents are a pain, they are also part of the job. If you can't deal with them, don't teach.

Perhaps he should have passed out photos or oral and anal sex to promote alternatives to birth control

I FEEL A NEED TO SING!!!!!!

The following is from Tom Lehrer:

I do have a cause though. It is obscenity. I'm for it. Unfortunately the civil liberties types who are fighting this issue have to fight it owing to the nature of the laws as a matter of freedom of speech and stifling of free expression and so on but we know what's really involved: dirty books are fun. That's all there is to it. But you can't get up in a court and say that I suppose. It's simply a matter of freedom of pleasure, a right which is not guaranteed by the Constitution unfortunately. Anyway, since people seem to be marching for their causes these days I have here a march for mine. It's called...

Smut!
Give me smut and nothing but!
A dirty novel I can't shut,
If it's uncut,
and unsubt- le.

I've never quibbled
If it was ribald,
I would devour where others merely nibbled.
As the judge remarked the day that he
acquitted my Aunt Hortense,
"To be smut
It must be ut-
Terly without redeeming social importance."

Por-
Nographic pictures I adore.
Indecent magazines galore,
I like them more
If they're hard core.

(Bring on the obscene movies, murals, postcards, neckties,
samplers, stained-glass windows, tattoos, anything!
More, more, I'm still not satisfied!)

Stories of tortures
Used by debauchers,
Lurid, licentious, and vile,
Make me smile.
Novels that pander
To my taste for candor
Give me a pleasure sublime.
(Let's face it, I love slime.)

All books can be indecent books
Though recent books are bolder,
For filth (I'm glad to say) is in
the mind of the beholder.
When correctly viewed,
Everything is lewd.
(I could tell you things about Peter Pan,
And the Wizard of Oz, there's a dirty old man!)

I thrill
To any book like Fanny Hill,
And I suppose I always will,
If it is swill
And really fil
thy.

Who needs a hobby like tennis or philately?
I've got a hobby: rereading Lady Chatterley.
But now they're trying to take it all
away from us unless
We take a stand, and hand in hand
we fight for freedom of the press.
In other words,

Smut! (I love it)
Ah, the adventures of a slut.
Oh, I'm a market they can't glut,
I don't know what
Compares with smut.

Hip hip hooray!
Let's hear it for the Supreme Court!
Don't let them take it away!

Chuck Palahniuk's a brillant writer, but stories like "Guts" are far too extreme for high school. The "beloved" teacher showed such incredibly bad judgment by handing this out that if I was a parent of a child at that school, I'd be worried about what other boundaries he might be crossing.

this teacher to have them read the Bible instead?

What you fail to understand is that as part of English class you read to understand what the writer was trying to communicate, how it was communicated and how effectively it was communicated.

Nowhere in all my English classes did anyone say that you had to buy into the theme of the story.

As for the Bible, if you were to present it as a work of fiction in a literature class, then there is no problem.

But when you present the Bible in an English class as a work of fact and a guideline to live, then there is a problem.

Reading the Bible and accepting the mythical story as fact are two different things.

The article says he is known for pushing the envelope. So one must wonder.

That said, Rcade, we shouldn't assume (not that you said we should) that he does other shit on this level. But if he does, the school administration should come down on him. They should investigate and follow whatever protocols are outlined in board policies and the collective bargaining agreement. All this talk about "He should be fired" is just blather. How would you (general you) like it if someone heard about something you did at your job and decided you should be fired? If someone fucks up once, they should not be summarily fired. I mean, unless that fucking up involves fucking. Or groping. (You see where I'm going?)

please state definitively that 11th graders should not be taught Romeo and Juliet.
.......#33 | Posted by truthhurts

.....just teach the little perverts about Jesus....

.....that's all the ejucasion they kneed........

Would you Libs be so forgiving were this teacher to have them read the Bible instead? Hypocrites.
......#40 | Posted by Dinsey

.......no.......because that would mean closing the students minds, instead of opening them.....

I think it's funny how many on this tread think its OK for 11th grade English to spend time reading about extreme masturbation. I would wager to beet that most that think its OK dont have kids or they are just sperm donors to some girl that figured out how shitty of a parent they would make.

This story is not just about stroking your cock ( im sure the females in the class found this rather gross)it involves going much further including chocking off your air supply for a better orgasm. Not a great thing to be EDUCATING 11th graders about after all it took David Carriden many years to reach this level before he was found in the closet dead. Maybe if this is a subject some of you feel your high school age children need to learn about you should be sure to show them yourself or even get a group together here on the drudge and do a online class together to discuss the varied other methods of masturbation. As for the parents in the group we choose to have the subject covered at home at a more appropriate time and manner.

THe teacher and the waffle principle should be written up and be placed on temp leave without pay!

Yeah, there seems to be a lot of leftist crap going on these days.

I think it's funny how many on this tread think its OK for 11th grade English to spend time reading about extreme masturbation.
.......#49 | Posted by WI_Hunter

......more than half of them are fucking by that age anyways.......

do a online class together to discuss the varied other methods of masturbation.
..........#49 | Posted by WI_Hunter

.....right hand........left hand........

.....you have no idea how backward, how Talebanish, you sound.......

more than half of them are fucking by that age anyways

----

And more than half of them are drinking. So with that logic, let's teach them cool drinking games in school.

And more than half of them are drinking. So with that logic, let's teach them cool drinking games in school.

If they let me teach the class, I can kill 2 birds with one stone and teach sex and drinking at the same time.

And more than half of them are drinking. So with that logic, let's teach them cool drinking games in school.
.......#53 | Posted by Pirate

.......fucking is fun.....let the kids enjoy it while they can.........

.....teach them safe sex and let them have fun....

So English teachers should be teaching kids safe sex?

.....fucking is fun.....let the kids enjoy it while they can.........

.....teach them safe sex and let them have fun....

#55 | Posted by skizziks at 2009-11-10 04:42 PM | Reply | Flag

Obvious that skizziks has no children of his own or if he does and he told the judge at the custody hearing of his parenting methods they wouldn't let him visit them with out a real adult present. According to skizziks at a childs 16th birthday parents should give them a porn flick because we know they are already fucking why not teach them all of the possiblities of ATM and DP.

.......no.......because that would mean closing the students minds, instead of opening them.....

#48 | Posted by skizziks at 2009-11-10 03:48 PM | Reply | Flag

skizziks demonstrates the thought process of a completely verifiable fool. And shit for brains.

Great thread title... incorporating "hands" and "masturbation."

"Big deal. Raise your cyber hand if you hadn't discovered masturbation by the 11th grade.
#29 | Posted by mOntecOre"

"The story -- written for Playboy magazine -- discusses a teenage boy's use of a carrot in a sex act on himself and autoerotic asphyxiation."

Wrong material to be promoting to children.
#30 | Posted by UpL8"

OK, mea culpa. I am guilty of failing to read the link, and relying on the headline. I don't think the things Pirate quotes are simply "masturbation," and they definitely are not reading for 11th graders, or any pre-adults. Fuck, I don't care to read about them now. D'oh!

"I think it's funny how many on this tread think its OK for 11th grade English to spend time reading about extreme masturbation."

Occam's Razor is useful here.

Liberalism is a mental disorder.

Obama's Safe Schools Czar has now released a liberal elite talking point for this story-

"The carrot was a metaphor for the Bush Administration's injection of war into a shit hole called the Middle East and the auto-erotic asphyxiation was ... uh ... well that was capitalism's strangle hold on the body politic. The tighter the grip, the closer we are to losing ourselves."

Hell,
By now they know that Johnny has two daddies, Lizzy has two mommies, Dennis has a domme for a mom, Karen lives in a poly family....

Now they know they can mess up perfectly good food too.....

Schooling needs to go back to basics of things like the missionary position and doggy-style and get rid of all the other social crap. I learned perfectly well in the streets about sex ;)

That said, Rcade, we shouldn't assume (not that you said we should) that he does other shit on this level.

I don't assume it. I just think it's a cause to investigate to make sure it's not the case.

My guess is that the teacher showed the story to some strong students because it's a very provocative piece and he figured they were mature enough to handle the material.

How in the world could he think that it was acceptable fare for *any* high school student? Normally I would exclaim Jesus Christ on a Pogo Stick! here, but I've come up with a new one I like better: Tom Tancredo in a Speedo!

"I don't assume it."

I know--that's why I wrote the parenthetical. : )

"I just think it's a cause to investigate to make sure it's not the case."

Agreed, as long as the district follows protocols.

"My guess is that the teacher showed the story to some strong students because it's a very provocative piece and he figured they were mature enough to handle the material."

Yeah, I wouldn't assign such a story to any kid I have, even though some could certainly handle it. If I had read some radical story, I might share the title with some students I have, though...

"How in the world could he think that it was acceptable fare for *any* high school student? Normally I would exclaim Jesus Christ on a Pogo Stick! here, but I've come up with a new one I like better: Tom Tancredo in a Speedo!"

Now that's funny. And horrifying.

"Liberalism is a mental disorder."

1. You're full of shit. (I could say "Conservatism is a mental disorder," and it would mean about as much.)

2. How do you know the guy was a liberal? Conservatives don't read risque, bizarre, or even disgusting fiction? (And before you say "'Cause he's a public school teacher," go check the NEA membership stats.)

Opening lines of the story:

A friend of mine, when he was thirteen years old he heard about "pegging." This is when a guy gets banged up the butt with a dildo. Stimulate the prostate gland hard enough, and the rumor is you can have explosive hands-free orgasms. At that age, this friend's a little sex maniac. He's always jonesing for a better way to get his rocks off. He goes out to buy a carrot and some petroleum jelly. To conduct a little private research. Then he pictures how it's going to look at the supermarket checkstand, the lonely carrot and petroleum jelly rolling down the conveyer belt toward the grocery store cashier.

Thats good stuff.

Maybe in a generation they will be teaching it in grammar school.

Hey Kliff, what does sharia law say about jamming a carrot up your ass and jacking off?

"How do you know the guy was a liberal?"

Because you are defending him.

"Conservatives don't read risque, bizarre, or even disgusting fiction?"

This isn't about what a teacher, whether conservative or liberal, chooses read for himself. Put the lube down and read the article again. This time read it without the cord around your neck.

The carrot can stay.

For heavens sake...

...11th graders don't masterbate!

The shame...

Barack Hussein Obama -- Education is our guide -- Carrots, ropes and Astroglide -- Mmm ... Mmm ... Mmm

Briwo,

"Don't be ridiculous, most boys have been masturbating for 3-5 years by 11th grade"

With a carrot in their butt??

This teacher has boundary issues and lacks good judgment.

I just read half of the story, then I had to lie down. I'm still a bit woozy and light-headed. I like Chuck, but this is just too much!

I'd bet money that anybody defending this story didn't bother to read it. I read the headline and thought, "Well, I could see this being okay under the right circumstances, a "coming" of age story, so to speak, like the WHO's "Pictures of Lily."

But then I read the story. Personally, I think it's trash, and I like to think of myself as a pretty open individual. Regardless of my own opinion, this is NOT something that should be part of the official curriculum in any high school class, anywhere. Period.

As for firing the teacher? I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. He definitely should be put on a short leash, though. Although given the story he's handing out to children (yes, 11th graders are children, no matter how mature they look or how much sex they're having), he might enjoy the leash a little too much.

Oh man... I got as far as the swimming pool story and started getting queasy, couldn't read further, seriously...

I really expected to come down hard in defense of the teacher but, no, I don't see what that story has to do with 11th grade english class. The internet is swimming with shock-lit and that's all this is. Typical blog gross-out stuff.

He could as well assign 100 versions of The Aristocrats.

Guts, eh?

*clicks link and reads*

Wow.

Interesting stuff.

Particularly fond of "Esprit de l'escalier"

Nicee.

That noted this is simply too graphic and too sexually explicit fer even a hardcore lefty lib like Spud.

The teacher here deserves a time out perhaps, a short one.

K. We done here.

Be Well.

"How do you know the guy was a liberal?"
Because you are defending him.

ME: Uh-huh. I never defend conservatives. Jeez, you're brilliant. Amazing logic.

"Conservatives don't read risque, bizarre, or even disgusting fiction?"
This isn't about what a teacher, whether conservative or liberal, chooses read for himself. Put the lube down and read the article again. This time read it without the cord around your neck.
The carrot can stay.

ME: Huh? Doesn't even make sense. Oh, sorry, I'll rewrite myself: "Conservatives don't suggest the reading of risque, bizarre, or even disgusting fiction."

Do you know all the teachers in the country and their respective political affiliations, lessons plans, and subject matter?

Genius.

And btw, Hopey, I wasn't defending him or his choice. I was defending protocol and suggesting that there's more to any story than those of us who weren't there can now.

I understand your confusion, given your difficulty with reading comprehension and logical nuance.

Obvious that skizziks has no children of his own or if he does and he told the judge at the custody hearing of his parenting methods they wouldn't let him visit them with out a real adult present. According to skizziks at a childs 16th birthday parents should give them a porn flick because we know they are already fucking why not teach them all of the possiblities of ATM and DP.

#57 | Posted by WI_Hunter

.....I have four kids, three girls, who are now grown up, three graduates, one still in university.........

.....no std's,none has gotten pregnant, my son did not impregnate anyone, because they had proper sex education, and they have great sex lives ......

......you are so backward that you do not even recognize your ignorance.......
.....

According to skizziks at a childs 16th birthday parents should give them a porn flick because we know they are already fucking why not teach them all of the possiblities of ATM and DP.
.......#57 | Posted by WI_Hunter

.....so go ahead and stick your head in the sand....

.....if you ever get one of your dour religious sex sessions and produce some kids, you go ahead and hide your head in the sand........

......it will be your kids getting std's and abortions because they wont know how to have safe sex........

"It will be your kids getting STD's and abortions because they won't know how to have safe sex...."

This teacher picked the wrong reading assignment regardless.

Gets back a previous discussion of a similar topic. This teacher had a universe of material to craft as lesson from, but mysteriously chose this.

He let his students and their parents down.

It's not the same as the earlier discussion, Zed. Having seen some excerpts of the Palahniuk story, I have to say that the gay animals assignment (which btw was some kind of choice assignment) is much less problematic. And in both cases, we have no fucking idea of the purpose or the specific assignment.

I love how people think they can sound off on school assignments without knowing jack about the actual assignment. It's as if we think we know how school works simply because we've been in school.

I think this one was clearly a bad choice (unless the school culture and the parents are down with such things, which clearly they are not). I think the gay animals assignment is much more defensible.

"I think the gay animals assignment is much more defensible..."

Let's see---Shall I assign gay animals today or something about Shakespeare?

Why is there any competition?

ZED:

"I think the gay animals assignment is much more defensible..."
Let's see---Shall I assign gay animals today or something about Shakespeare?
Why is there any competition?

ME: Zed, do you read _anything_ I write? I've clarified all my thinking on this before. Are you being disingenous or deliberately provoking me? : ) (Fair game.) Did you not get my points in the "gay animals" thread, or did you not agree? (If the latter, take on the merits of the argument.)

In case you didn't get my points, or didn't read them last time, I'll try again. Here you go:

1. English class is not all about reading classics.

2. English class is not all about reading literature--it's about communication: reading, writing, and speaking. And anything that gets kids to clearer communication is good. (Well, almost anything.) Oh, and nonfiction is important, too.

3. You have no idea--nor do I--what was in the "gay animals" assignment, so you have no idea (nor do I) what the larger value might have been.

Not being in these guys' classes, we really have no way of knowing what their purposes were or what the value of a particular assignment might be.

And if you don't live in the community, you have no input into text choice or curriculum. (Actually, I think it's up to the professionals to determine curriculum and choose texts, but of course, questions can happen.) And anyone who says we should have such input ever suggested that schooling should be a matter of local control (10th amendment, etc.), then that person is a hypocrite.

That said, I can't think of a reason, in the school this guy teaches in, for assigning this story. In a private school where the edginess is known to parents, this could be a different story.

I still don't think he should be fired, but disciplined or set straight according to district protocol and to appropriate sections of the collective bargaining agreement. And I'm with Rcade that this is reason for his principal (if he has a spine) to look closely at what the guy assigns. But one mistake does not a bad teacher make.

"One mistake does not a bad teacher make..."

I agree. I wouldn't have even disciplined either teacher. But I would have had an earnest discussion with both.

But both teachers would have my entire respect, and are typically on much safer grounds, if they did teach only classics.

"I agree. I wouldn't have even disciplined either teacher. But I would have had an earnest discussion with both.
But both teachers would have my entire respect, and are typically on much safer grounds, if they did teach only classics."

Thank you for the civil discussion, and I'm glad we agree on something. : )

That said, why your insistence only on classics? It's not where education is right now, for good or bad, and I don't think it should be. I think classics are important, but they're not for everyone (literacy being what it is, among other reasons), and English needs to have room in it for other things: reading, writing, and speaking. And nonfiction is very important.

I keep saying we need an education thread, but it seems that threads here only get good traffic when they're extremely controversial. And supplied with a good, solid link to an article guaranteed to piss somebody off. : ) (I'm not complaining exactly, just sort of observing. There are lots of intelligent people here--whether I agree with them or not--and I enjoy conversation and challenges to my orthodoxy.)

For now, why the insistence on only classics? And how do you define classic? (Many of which, btw, have some pretty racy stuff, though nothing as graphic as Palahniuk's work.)

Why is this not appropriate for 11th graders? Every single one of them have already started masturbating by that time. If not all of them then a very high percentage have. They are also, or should be, mature enough to handle the subject matter. This teacher should be reinstated.

I can't argue that literacy doesn't have much to do with what can and should happen in an English class.

Mostly I'm thinking of Honors courses. I'm tired of speaking with allegedly prepared college students and realizing when you use literary allusions in speech they don't understand you.

Why is this not appropriate for 11th graders? Every single one of them have already started masturbating by that time. If not all of them then a very high percentage have. They are also, or should be, mature enough to handle the subject matter. This teacher should be reinstated.

#86 | Posted by everlong at 2009-11-11 10:34 AM | Reply | Flag:

Dude. Read the story.

"I can't argue that literacy doesn't have much to do with what can and should happen in an English class.
Mostly I'm thinking of Honors courses. I'm tired of speaking with allegedly prepared college students and realizing when you use literary allusions in speech they don't understand you."

Okay, no we can find some places of agreement. If you're talking about Honors courses, I think the emphasis should be on classics (which we've yet to define*) or at least rigorous texts. But emphasis, not only. And classics can be controversial too... But even in many of today's Honors classes, you get kids who want to be challenged but can't necessarily read Shakespeare's works. (I struggle with this daily.) And given your comment about literary allusions, do you think we should be concerned with developing skills or with developing knowledge? (Both? Sure. But in the grand scheme, which is more important?) Is it better to read lots of books quickly (get a brief sense of "the classics") or to read fewer books in depth (really grapple with ideas and language and author craft)?

If we're not talking Honors, I'm generally of the "what engages them and helps them learn is good" camp.

*Is Fahrenheit 451 a classic? Is The Picture of Dorian Gray a classic? Is Brave New World a classic? What about Tropic of Cancer (ha)? What about Sappho's poetry? Is there no value to studying modern fiction that's critically acclaimed? (Michael Chabon, Richard Russo, Barbara Kingsolver, Louise Erdrich...)

Sorry: "Okay, no we" should have been "Okay, noW we..."

Silly teachers who think they shouldn't have to reread their own posts.

Many of you seem to be either completely unable or completely unwilling to differentiate between material 11th graders "can handle" and material from which 11th graders can learn.

Taking a thoughtless stance against what you view as the "prudish" side of the arguement isnt' as impressive as most of you seem to believe.

Why is this not appropriate for 11th graders?

Of all the stories in the world that eleventh graders could be reading, you'd waste their time on one that's so lurid, gross and so sexually explicit that an anecdote about sticking a carrot up your butt is one of the least dirty parts of the whole piece?

"Many of you seem to be either completely unable or completely unwilling to differentiate between material 11th graders "can handle" and material from which 11th graders can learn."

Again, I"m not defending this choice, but um, we can learn from lots of things. Even bad literature. And poor logical constructions.

That said, I agree--some here seem to be defending this choice for what to me are bizarre reasons. Or maybe they, like me, aren't defending but merely trying to get the critics to think past the apparent "Oh nooooo! It's disGUSTING! Vile trash!" argument.

I don't even want to read this story. It just seems icky, and I like dirty stories. : ) (And liking is different from giving them to my students to read.)

Of all the stories in the world that eleventh graders could be reading, you'd waste their time on one that's so lurid, gross and so sexually explicit that an anecdote about sticking a carrot up your butt is one of the least dirty parts of the whole piece?

#92 | Posted by rcade at 2009-11-11 12:37 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

Dude think about it. The Teenage population's obesity quotent is rising quickly. Maybe if they are exposed to a different and exciting "Exersize Technique" then maybe they could reduce the size of their waists a tad bit. You never know.

Larry

A better audience would have been university/college aged kids. That said, this is what teachers should be doing, exposing kids to art and literature, new ideas, and discussions about what it means to be human. Perhaps if it were not an act of subversion to have an academic discussion within a school then he could have had more collegial input into his choice of material and avoided this.

BTW, the new movie "The Road" was also written by Cormac McCarthy

"Again, I"m not defending this choice, but um, we can learn from lots of things. "

I wasn't talking about you in particular, just the general tone of alot of posts on the thread.

Sure we can learn from anything. But class time is limited. You figure if the class is 45 mins long, 5 days a week and they are in class for 40 weeks a year, that's only 150 hours of class time this teacher has to instruct these kids. In reality it is probably less due to vacation days during the school year.

Given all the literature available out there, if he can't plan out 150 hours of class time that covers better material than this should he be teaching?

"Given all the literature available out there, if he can't plan out 150 hours of class time that covers better material than this should he be teaching?"

But again, we don't know the assignment. Criticizing material (well, most of the time : ) ) without that context is like criticizing a doctor's treatment plan without knowing the disorder being treated. (Well, that's extreme, but do you see where I'm going? I hope so. I've only made this point 185,000 times. (grin))

"But again, we don't know the assignment. Criticizing material (well, most of the time : ) ) without that context is like criticizing a doctor's treatment plan without knowing the disorder being treated. (Well, that's extreme, but do you see where I'm going? I hope so. I've only made this point 185,000 times. (grin))"

Well, whatever the assignment was it seems to have failed to impress any of the adults involved.

Seriously, its not a bad point to make but in this particular case, I can't believe that there is an English lesson to be learned by reading this story that can't be taught more effectively using any number of other materials.

The most reasonable explanation based on the information we have is that this guy enjoys being the edgy, cool teacher more than he does being and educator and assigning materials like this helps him maintain that image. Look at all the people here who had a knee-jerk "What's the big deal, kids can handle this!" response without even thinking about what the purpose of 11th grade really is. The same thoughtless need to be "cool" is involved.

Dude. Read the story.

#88 | Posted by Alexandrite

Okay, I read it. I still don't see what's wrong with providing it to 11th graders. We learned of much more explicit stuff in sex-ed in high school. I honestly don't see the big deal. Are you trying to imply that none of those 11th graders have tried using a fruit or other device during masturbation? Like I said, they've all been doing it already. And these days kids are doing sexual things younger and younger and there's no telling what fetishes they may be in to.

"Okay, I read it. I still don't see what's wrong with providing it to 11th graders."

Occams razor is instructive here:

Liberalism is a mental disorder.

Barack Hussein Obama -- Education is our guide -- Carrots, ropes and Astroglide -- Mmm ... Mmm ... Mmm

"Seriously, its not a bad point to make but in this particular case, I can't believe that there is an English lesson to be learned by reading this story that can't be taught more effectively using any number of other materials."

I agree that this story was a bad choice. For any number of reasons. I'm not willing to make the leap to his being a bad teacher. Who the fuck knows? We are so ready to judge, and we're not even on the sidelines; we're in another fuckin' arena. : )

+++++

Hopey, you're full of shit again. Conservatism is a mental disorder. There, I said it. It's just as stupid as your comment.

And what the FUCK does Barack Hussein Obama have to do with this English teacher who made a stupid decision? Obama has nothing to do with choices of hiring, firing, curriculum, or anything else relating to education. Other than appointing Arne Duncan, who is hardly a blind supporter of public schools, you underinformed fuck.

But hey, your rhyme was mildly clever, so I suppose that's good enough for you.

"Okay, I read it. I still don't see what's wrong with providing it to 11th graders."

READ THE ACTUAL STORY from the link!!!! THE WHOLE THING Then tell me at what age these things should be introduced to students.

"I still don't see what's wrong with providing it to 11th graders."

Well its really not that hard to see once you open your mind and get over your knee-jerk need to be "open minded" by supporting the edgy teacher.

You shouldn't give this to a class of 16 year olds for the same reason you wouldn't give it to a class full of 40 year olds at a community college: It is idiotic and has zero educational value and therefore is a waste of class time.

Just because a 16 year old has been exposed to or maybe has tried something doesn't mean reading a poorly written, self-consciously "shocking" story about it is a good use of class time.

Really this material is about as edgy as a rubber ball. Nothing is more boring to me than someone who is so self consciously trying to be shocking.

Nothing to be alarmed at here. Just a "progressive" teacher challenging his students with unconventional material.

Move along. This is just another example of right wing oppression of free thought. The teacher will be back to work soon.

"The teacher will be back to work soon."

As he should be--with a reprimand not to go so far again, and perhaps greater attention paid to what he does in the future--unless of course investigation proves that he is somehow harmful to children or a generally bad teacher. (See earlier notes about protocols, district and CBA.)

PRAGMATIST said-

"Or maybe they, like me, aren't defending but merely trying to get the critics to think past the apparent "Oh nooooo! It's disGUSTING! Vile trash!" argument."

Attaboy! The first step to endorsement of exposing of our children to wonderful unconventional masturbation techniques is getting people to overcome their repulsion to rectal carrots and auto-erotic asphyxiation.

After all, it's not like some kids haven't already read about it or even tried it right? What's the big deal? Time to move into the 21st century. Thankfully we have a president with the foresight to appoint Kevin Jennings as Safe Schools Czar.

After we get people over their apparent "Oh nooooo! It's disGUSTING!" reaction, we can educate them on the use of organic carrots and rope made from hemp.

Spoken like a true pragmatist.

Here's a pragmatic thought for ya.

Sometimes a rope around the neck and carrot up the ass is just a rope around the neck and carrot up the ass.

Not an educational intellectual exercise for an 11th grade English class.

If it wasn't for teacher's unions and government employment, this teacher would have thought twice before such an assignment as using such progressive, cutting edge teaching materials would have gotten him summarily fired.

Normally I would exclaim Jesus Christ on a Pogo Stick! here, but I've come up with a new one I like better: Tom Tancredo in a Speedo!

RCade, thanks for that image. Just the antidote to my tears.

"Spoken like a true pragmatist."

Again, you're not paying attention. I never defended this choice. In fact, I said it was a bad choice.

Kneejerk, anti-me reaction much?

Now think hard about what other criteria other people might use to fire someone. Teachers' unions--well, the NEA (dunno about AFT)--protects teachers from whimsical firing. One mistake does not a bad teacher make. So even though this was a bad choice, the teacher should not be fired. Good teachers make mistakes. If he were telling the kids that this was fun and they should try it, that would be different. A story is not an urging to act on the idea in the story. If so, we shouldn't teach Shakespeare's plays.

(Methinks ol' Hopey is just pissed 'cause I pointed out how stupid his little song was.)

Your reactions lead me to believe that you don't really know how to read, Hopey. Try again, and try insulting me when you actually understand what I said, okay?

Perhaps you can join the narrow-viewed, literal minded parents in a book-burning. After all, kids should only be reading "See Spot Run" and The Bible, right? Anything provocative and unique should be banned.

#20 | Posted by unklegwar at 2009-11-10 10:52 AM | Reply | Flag: Fuck dude. Let them read Catcher in the Rye!! No carrots up the ass in that one.

The funny thing is, I read the story and could not find anything about it that spoke of great short story literature.

Remember The Lottery? Shirley Jackson? Now thats a short story!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think this fuck is incredibly over rated as an author anyway.

The Lottery is amazing. One of the greats.

And people remember it for ever--or at least the total creep-out they felt.

"The Lottery is amazing. One of the greats."

Read that one in tenth grade. Remember thinking... really? really?

So much better than Madame Bovary.

In 11th grade I cut English after taking the class picture.

My prof. made me read Joyce's "The Dead" as punishment.

That SOB. I'm still not over it.

Now that gal could write!

What was the one where you have 3 doors, you must choose? Behind one was a tiger . . .

"So much better than Madame Bovary."

And so much SHORTER.

+++++

"What was the one where you have 3 doors, you must choose? Behind one was a tiger . . ."

The Lady, or the Tiger. (It might be Tyger--it's that old-fashioned.) Not by Shirley Jackson, but I don't think you meant to suggest it was.

Or "The Most Dangerous Game." Great shit. No masturbation or carrots. But blood and death and human heads on the wall.

"So much better than Madame Bovary."
And so much SHORTER.

I never said I finished it. I didn't become a happy pre-English Major until 11th grade.

A major I eventually abandoned because I didn't want to read the classics... apart from Shakespeare I guess.

signing off.

Book of the month club calls

"I never said I finished it. I didn't become a happy pre-English Major until 11th grade."

Madame Bovary was not assigned in my HS. I read it in college, in a course called Flaubert and Turgenev. I'm still a bigger fan of Turgenev (Fathers and Sons--oh, man) than of Flaubert, though I enjoy the latter's work, or did then. The closest I have come to reading Flaubert in the last probably 20 years is Flaubert's Parrot, by Julian Barnes.

In 10th grade I was in an honors European History/English/Art History class that qualified for AP credits. I didn't have the intellectual maturity to handle it I guess. Was much more interested in closing the deal with my girlfriend.

If only I could have the time back that I wasted with her.

"If only I could have the time back that I wasted with her."

There are so many things one could say that about (substituting other nouns or pronouns for 'her'). Mine is not her or even him. She did not come into my life in that way till 12th grade.

"She did not come into my life in that way till 12th grade."

You dodged the hormonal bullet.

Hell, in a sense, so did I. She got her abortion from because of another guy... immediately after we broke up(?).

Wait, that's the subject of another thread.

"Wait, that's the subject of another thread."

LMAO. Well, the she for me lasted a few years, and the first two and a half were great--maybe partly because of the long-distance nature of the relationship? Ah, youth.