In the AWARE study, randomly generated images will be projected in the rooms of critically ill patients, in locations where they can be viewed only from aboveby someone having an out-of-body experience, for instance. If patients who survive NDEs can identify these images subsequentlywell, not to overdramatize, but several centuries of materialism in the natural sciences will have to be rewritten. The director of AWARE is Dr. Sam Parnia, a fellow at Weill Cornell Medical Center. He told NEWSWEEK that researchers at 20 hospitals have identified about 600 subjects for interviews. Parnia expects to publish his results in 2010.

Now that's an interesting thought-die-and go to another dimension-in another reality...Heaven-if you will.
Is there an angry old white dude sitting in a big cloud-throwing lightning bolts at everyone who pisses him off?(Which-would be everyone who ISN'T as perfect as he is...)

D'Souza has written some really interesting stuff. I'll take a look at this latest offering. There is no one on the left with his intellect.

Can I see my dog from my childhood again???? My mom from ten years ago? Wait..... Do I have to pay offering. Huh?

Now I am thinking about all those bugs I killed while driving my car. Oh Gawd!

Wow I have seen wingnuts who live in a bubble world but this takes the cake!

I always thought D'Souza was a total fanatic ala RUSHBO and COULTER.

I guess I really didn't need one more reason to discount his ideas but this really seals the deal. What a whackjob.

I think he has definate potential as a GOP token candidate to put forward the face of race like Bobby Jindal.

OH OF COURSE FWTHOM loves him?!

Go ahead and read this fantasy - I hope it makes you convert to Hindu!

If you like that check out EASY JOURNEY TO OTHER PLANETS by the Hare Krishna!

During brain operations, many which are conducted with local anesthesia, doctors and can trigger patient memories by touching parts of each unique persons brain. So when the brain rots, those memories dissappear. You can add parrallel universes to this cause and effect, but why? As Einstein pointed out when two explanations compete, the simpler one is correct. Unlike space, time only moves in one direction.

But, as the author points out, God occupies the unknown, which we can make into anything we want. The Standard Model, mans most remarkable achievement, remains incomplete. When DeSouza invokes multi-dimensional universes he is talking out of his ass. This doesn't mean they won't be a part of a new improved standard model, just that this is anything but a known fact.

"Unlike space, time moves in one direction...."

Though no one has the faintest idea why.

"The simpler one is correct..."

No. The simpler one is just more likely to be correct.

"So when the brain rots, those memories disappear...."

Depends on what history you pay attention to.

There is no evidence.

All you can do is conjecture that because I don't know, it might be possible.

Same as people who believe in angels.

E=mc2

Multi-universes are sometimes invoked as a hint to the "realists" that reality is something more than your refrigerator, or the lint in your navel.

But the emotional bonds between lint and refrigerators and some people are incredibly great. I don't see them dying out soon.

Unlike space, time moves in one direction...

That is not a given. Personally, I believe it to be untrue. IMO all dimensions follow the same laws.

The theoretical multiverse is a small reminder that man's knowledge can only take us so far, and that there may be things outside of the observable.

"There is no evidence..."

Evidence is a whore the way it is used around here. There is no evidence for most of what makes or could make your life worthwhile---

As the man said, the "Proof" of your life is largely anecdotal and therefore useless---One reason the suicide rate remains as high as it is.

Multi-universes are sometimes invoked as a hint to the "realists" that reality is something more than your refrigerator, or the lint in your navel.

But the emotional bonds between lint and refrigerators and some people are incredibly great. I don't see them dying out soon.

#13 | Posted by Zed

You're so fucking profound, Zed. You ought to get the Nobel Prize for profundity and obscurity.

If I'm profound as well as obscure, then that hints at talent. What's wrong with you, anyway? You always act like you've got piles.

E=mc2

And 6x5=30

" then that hints at talent."

You definitely have a knack for mystical bullshit, I'll grant you that.

"there is nothing in physics to contradict the idea that we can live beyond death in other realms with bodies that are unlike the bodies we now possess."

And there is nothing in physics to contradict the idea that we cannot live beyond death in other realms with bodies that are unlike the bodies we now possess.

D'Souza is using the ridiculous theory that lack of proof, is proof.

"I'll grant you that...."

A remark involving piles followed by one including bullshit. Synchronicity, gotta love it.

One more in the series and it all means something.

"Lack of proof is proof..."

Lint. Refrigerators. Moose. Indian.

"One reason the suicide rate remains as high as it is."

Open the windows and check the batteries in your carbon monoxide detectors...they seem to be malfunctioning.

A remark involving piles followed by one including bullshit. Synchronicity, gotta love it.

Yeah, whatever. So what exactly is this religious experience that turned you from a non-theist to a bible thumper, anyway?

So why do you think the suicide rate is as high as it is?

I don't actually thump Bibles. The larger part of my religous conversion comes from life experiences, the vast number of which are ordinary.

So why do you think the suicide rate is as high as it is?

Quantum spin. I want to do myself in everytime I try to comprehend it.

"Quantum spin..."

Could be. In my own opinion, though, it's because people can't differentiate themselves from cardboard boxes or piles of dog shit.

Lint. Refrigerators. Moose. Indian.

#24 | Posted by Zed

Is it impossible for you to speak english? Or are you just more interested in looking profound and poetic?

"Lint. Refrigerators. Moose. Indian."

There you have it. "Unshakable scientific grounds" there is an all-knowing, all-powerful Flying Spaghetti Monster.

In my own opinion, though, it's because people can't differentiate themselves from cardboard boxes or piles of dog shit.

I can. Shit and boxes and boxes of shit are not self-aware as I am.

Do I look profound or poetic?

Just imagine if dog shit were self-aware, GOATMAN. What would be it's options?

Just imagine if dog shit were self-aware, GOATMAN. What would be it's options?

Without ambulatory capabilities or appendages to control and modify their environment, a pile of shit's options would be pretty much nil.

What kind of question is that, zed?

"Pretty much nil...."

Yes. Exactly. The horror of being dog shit captured. A window on the human condition.

Do I look profound or poetic?

#34 | Posted by Zed

No. You look like somebody desperately trying to be profound and poetic.

I Shit Therefore I Am.

- Dinesh D'Souza

"You look like someone desperately trying to be profound and poetic..."

Yes, but do I succeed at looking like someone being desperate? Throw me a bone, why don't you?

Do I look profound or poetic?

#34 | Posted by Zed at 2009-11-02 08:42 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

No, you look like a lunatic in desperate need of an ice pick Lobotomy

"Ice pick lobotomy...."

That doesn't work unless you stir the pick around a lot after its inserted. Actually, it doesn't work too well even then.

#41 | Posted by lfthndthrds

That's not helpful.

Ice pick lobotomy...."

That doesn't work unless you stir the pick around a lot after its inserted. Actually, it doesn't work too well even then.

#42 | Posted by Zed at 2009-11-02 08:54 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

#41 | Posted by lfthndthrds

That's not helpful.

#43 | Posted by nullifidian at 2009-11-02 09:01 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

Ok, lets go with a straight jacket

Did this idiot ever take a quantum mechanics course?

ZAT is glad he's a cardboard box instead of the alternative. It allows him to dis people for not taking courses in masking tape.

D'souza, childish need to have a story explain what happens when we die, Unable to accept the truth, we don't know, that probably we are just dead. That is a hard concept for many people to accept. Death. That when we die we are actually dead. Hard to accept, but please, let's be honest, in all liklehood, true.
The worst part, if you accept the truth, you won't be capable of acknowledging the fact you were right.

Did this idiot ever take a quantum mechanics course?

#45 | Posted by Zatoichi

Most people have not, dumbass. And guess what? Even educated people! Holy shit!

Is that the worst part? Not having bragging rights? Reminds me that there are many less bad things than dying, a majority of them superficial.

Its your body that dies, DANNI, not you. You say that no one knows what happens after you die, but you've made up your mind about it nonetheless.

You say that no one knows what happens after you die

I know. Without embalming or cremation, you go through a decomposition process. It's a circle of life thing.

"Its your body that dies, DANNI, not you."

And the fact there is no proof, is proof!
~DD'S

What proof would you accept? How many times have I asked that question by now, I wonder?

"What proof would you accept?"

Just speaking for myself, I'm quite sure that an all-knowing "God" can figure out what proof would satisfy me.

There's never a problem with setting a high standard of proof, of course. But stating there could never be proof gets you into interesting territory, none of it intellectual.

Just speaking for myself, I'm quite sure that an all-knowing "God" can figure out what proof would satisfy me.

Good answer

"Can figure out what proof could satisfy me..."

See #55.

I'd say DANFORTH is holding out for a miracle if I had any conviction at all that were true. DANFORTH is not really in this game at all.

"A traitorous generation looks for a sign and will have none...."

What's interesting about Christ's statement here is at the time He made it he was providing sign upon sign. Why people had "none" wasn't His choice.

See #55.

What about it?

What proof would you accept, NULLIFIDIAN? DANFORTH'S silence speaks volumes about his attitude. Care to commit?

Won't even ask for a talking B-29, or suchlike? My.

"What proof would you accept, NULLIFIDIAN?"

Only G-D knows. He's omniscient. He knows, by definition, exactly what proof I would accept.

Bring it on, G-D.

"DANFORTH'S silence speaks volumes about his attitude."

Huh? The World Series is on.

"What proof would you accept"

What have you got?

"I'd say DANFORTH is holding out for a miracle "

First, I want a valid explanation to the "there's no proof, so therefore that's proof" theory D'Stupid is proffering.

"He's omniscient..."

Yes, but I'm not. I'm pretty sure whatever you state you need I won't be able to provide, so why you run from this question eludes me.

If there's no proof you will accept, just say that. God is already granting your request if that is true.

I'm not responsible for what D'Souza argues.

It almost seems as if you're afraid if you name what proof you'd accept for something you'll bring that something into being. That's magic. Neither God nor I believe in it.

It always seemed to me that the energy (soul?) that makes my chemical-biological body conscious would still be somewhere in the universe after my body gave out. (First Law of Thermodynamics)
I don't think anyone could say much beyond that at this point, least of all a right wing hack like "Distort D'Newza"

"The World Series is on..."

First I've heard of it. Baseball, right?

"If there's no proof you will accept, just say that. God is already granting your request if that is true."

I'm in all in favor of proof, Zed. And when G-D provides it, I'll give it all due consideration.

"Baseball, right?"

No...poker.

Yankees vs. Phillies.

It's all about ego for some people.

God is an unfalsifiable theory. You can't prove there is no god, and you can't be sure that if there was, he'd make it certain to everybody.

Too many people just can't accept that others come to different conclusions.

"I'll give it due consideration..."

If you say so. And if not, no law about that I'm aware of.

"If you say so. And if not, no law about that I'm aware of."

Anytime "God" wants to speak to me, I'm all ears, Zed Until then, "God" doesn't deserve a second of my time.

"I'm not responsible for what D'Souza argues."

Then we're back to "what have you got?"

Clear enough, NULLIFIDIAN. Too bad.

Not really, DANFORTH. We're back to what do you want. If you want nothing, I'm pretty sure you'll have that in abundance.

"Not really, DANFORTH. We're back to what do you want."

Wait a minute...I never claimed I didn't believe. Either there is proof, or there is no proof, which shouldn't be referred to as "unshakable scientific grounds". It's not science, it's faith.

"If you want nothing, I'm pretty sure you'll have that in abundance."

No...I want something. What have you got?

"What have you got...?"

I can offer a miracle. That I've seen one and participated in one. Going to take my word for that?

Clear enough, NULLIFIDIAN. Too bad.

#76 | Posted by Zed

Too bad for who? What happened to you, anyway?

Going to take my word for that?

No. I've seen too many other people call an otherwise explainable event a 'miracle'.

I can offer a miracle. That I've seen one and participated in one. Going to take my word for that?

I want to hear about it, Zed. I'm interested in altered states of consciousness. No sarcasm intended there.

I'm in all in favor of proof, Zed. And when G-D provides it, I'll give it all due consideration.

#70 | Posted by nullifidian at 2009-11-02 10:30 PM

#83 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DICK

You do realize that I'm not above exaggerating my cannabis usage, right?

#83 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DICK

You do realize that I'm not above exaggerating my cannabis usage, right?

#84 | Posted by nullifidian at 2009-11-02 11:05 PM

"I'm interested in altered states of consciousness...."

Then you wouldn't be interested in what happened to me. When I said miracle I was being serious.

"An otherwise explainable event..."

I'm not referencing some sort of sideshow antics. I'm talking subtle, patient, complex, compassionate, and intelligent.

I'm talking subtle, patient, complex, compassionate, and intelligent.

same as described to me by others.

Null asked you to relate it. Please do.

Then you wouldn't be interested in what happened to me. When I said miracle I was being serious.

#86 | Posted by Zed

I'm very much interested in your experience. I will not ridicule it. I promise.

"Please do...."

In any detail I won't here. It's entirely too personal. It's nothing like a dog trick or look-ma-the-Loch Ness monster. It would involve spilling my guts in a way inappropriate to what is a very vicious and unforgiving cyber environment.

LOL, I'd say so. You can't even take a joke, you uptight SOB. Go smoke and relax a little.

#85 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE

Got some great purps coming on line in a few minutes.
lol

"In any detail I won't here. It's entirely too personal. "

I understand. That's reasonable. I would love to hear about your religious experience but that's cool if you don't want to talk about it on a public forum.

The problem comes in when you use those experiences to argue for particular, religious based assertions.

I get you Zed, and I'm far from a wingnut. But, don't expect the drudgerethen to be convinced. As you know, if you are willing to make one small assumption (i.e. faith), everything else becomes so obvious, including the existence and the Truth of God. It's a bold statement to understand as fact if you don't make the one assumption, but I didn't need D'Souza to tell me that through his opinion of Quantum Mechanics, which may or may not have validity. It's from the simple fact that for our own bodies to function properly for 60-90 years, it takes trillions of processes to function correctly. Now consider how much crap we put into our bodies and how much abuse (or sloth) we put ourselves through, yet we live on. Now try that with computers, cars, or anything else. Nothing runs a perfectly as the miracle of life itself, even as shitty as it seems to be sometimes. Trillions of different creatures have trillions of different bodily functions function perfectly every single day. That is not coincidence, that is not a form of mechanics as we know it. That comes from a knowledge greater than we will ever discover.

To me it makes a whole heck of a lot more sense to assume that intelligence beyond our understanding, which has been defined rather clearly in the bible, (and other religious works, for that matter), as the existence of God. From a rational perspective, it just makes more sense to assume this one little thing that all of the arrows of faith lead you to, than to assume that nature occurs this perfectly, this randomly. But my faith was proven more through simple logic than through bible-thumping or moral browbeating....I'm a relativist in that department. My faith was proven through common sense, and only enhanced and reinforced through my relationship with God, no matter how much he pisses me off.

Multi-universes are sometimes invoked as a hint to the "realists" that reality is something more than your refrigerator, or the lint in your navel.
But the emotional bonds between lint and refrigerators and some people are incredibly great. I don't see them dying out soon.
#13 | POSTED BY ZED AT 2009-11-02 08:21 PM | REPLY | FLAG:

Molecules in the known universe < Non sequiturs posted by Zed

This thread is hilarious. The only thing missing is don't bogart that joint.

This quote is my favorite, "My faith was proven through common sense, and only enhanced and reinforced through my relationship with God, no matter how much he pisses me off. "

Talk about stoned.

faith doesn't require proof. it only requires doubt. without doubt, there is only certainty.

people tend to take the shortcut to 'absolute' against which the only argument can be absolute. and those conversations are boring.

Faith doesn't mean you have a belief, it just means you believe you have a belief.

Now, if a preacher tells you the world is going to end tomorrow, and you go and withdraw all your savings and then spend it on a coke whore and a great night on the town, that's faith.

There have been studies that have measured the weight of a body before and just after death. Across the board apx. 4 oz goes missing from the body within a couple of hours of death.

IF you can measure something it is real.

I suggest you read "90 minutes in Heaven" an after life account of someone who was certified as dead for 90 minutes after a massive car wreck.

[citation needed]

"Talk about stoned...."

I thought what BOCAINK said was rather profound, a lot more useful on this topic than most of what I've posted.

If the man gets that sort of response to a simple, sober, and apparently heart-felt statement I'm validated in my caution not to post too much that is personal to me in this forum.

I've been in the position of trying to demonstrate the larger meanings of films and novels to young people (or even that there is meaning in them).

I've gotten the same sort of comments, always invincible ih their ignorance. The only thing that keeps you from pulling your teeth out is that one or two will get it, if not that instant, then much later.

Then it often becomes their turn as mature men and women to wrestle with the sort of empty glasses they used to be.

The man is a fucking nut

There have been studies that have measured the weight of a body before and just after death. Across the board apx. 4 oz goes missing from the body within a couple of hours of death.

IF you can measure something it is real.

LOL.

Those studies are all bogus and even if they were real they certainly couldn't be used as proof that a soul is real.

But you believe what you wanna believe regardless of facts.

That's faith, innit?

On Topic?

D'souza is moron.

Be Well.

Across the board apx. 4 oz goes missing from the body within a couple of hours of death.

So you're saying the soul is a physical entity?

That disagrees with most of what I've been told throughout my life.

Wow man - I smoked some great stuff and then saw that my soul will transport to the quantum level!

OOOH AAAH wow look at that! My hand is attached to my arm!

Now I can feel comfort knowing I will have somewhere to go after death - my soul will traverse the multiverse!

I will then be reborn as an xman with adamatine steel claws instead of fingers - cool!

Pass that around again man D'Souza you sure do get the good stuff - I bet RUSHBO is your connect!

To me it makes a whole heck of a lot more sense to assume that intelligence beyond our understanding, which has been defined rather clearly in the bible, (and other religious works, for that matter), as the existence of God.

You don't see the inconsistency in this sentence?

Something we can't understand cannot in turn be "defined rather clearly" in a book.

This is a problem I often have with religious people who claim to know what God wants or what God's will is. Once something comes up that isn't explained by their know-it-all arrogance, God all of a sudden becomes mysterious and beyond comprehension.

If the man gets that sort of response to a simple, sober, and apparently heart-felt statement I'm validated in my caution not to post too much that is personal to me in this forum.

You didn't know not to post anything personal after your first hour here?

I've gotten the same sort of comments, always invincible ih their ignorance

And yet religious folks always seem invincible in their arrogance.

Then it often becomes their turn as mature men and women to wrestle with the sort of empty glasses they used to be.

And religion is of course the only cure for that?

know-it-all arrogance

#107 | Posted by jpw at 2009-11-03 10:04 AM | Flag: Thinks that's a problem solely of religious people

There you have it. "Unshakable scientific grounds" there is an all-knowing, all-powerful Flying Spaghetti Monster.

#32 | Posted by Danforth

They say there were 7 wonders of the ancient world.

The only evidence remaining for some wonders is the written word - stating that the wonder existed.

But, it's only the written word the remains.

So, really, there aren't 7 wonders unless you add the word, "supposedly"

They say there were 7 wonders of the ancient world.

The only evidence remaining for some wonders is the written word - stating that the wonder existed.

Exactly... so it would be entirely ridiculous for you to try to tell me the exact dimensions of the Colossus of Rhodes. As far as the ancient wonders go, Antipater of Sidon described them when they were still standing. The bible was written long after the death of Jesus by people who were deliberately trying to push a new religious movement.

Ancient historians were generally more credible than the authors of the bible, and their accounts can be compared against one another by modern historians. While there are ridiculous stories that crop up in historical accounts by even "reputable" figures, sane people generally don't believe them. Ancient sailors saw mermaids all of the time, and Pliny says he saw the god Triton. Do you believe them just because they wrote it? Of course not.

There's only one source of information on all of the resurrections, angels, demons, clairvoyance, and water-walking in the bible... and that's the bible. Why do people believe the stories of the bible without hesitation while not giving second thought to Pliny's encounter with a very different deity? There is equal evidence to support both, but many people forget that a popular lie has no more truth to it than a forgotten lie.

I have read about this and also hundreds of accounts of near death experiences. The thing with the NDE is that none of them are exactly alike but they all have several aspects of them that are the same or very similar. Most people, when telling of their experiences, talk of being in a tunnel, seeing a very bright light that doesn't hurt to look at, being met by dead loved ones, a feeling of complete peace and overwhelming love; And everyone I read said that they communicated through telepathy. There were no words spoken with the mouth out loud.

You can discount God and religion but it is very hard to discount the thousands of NDE reports that are out there. Victor Zammit is a lawyer who claims he has proven that there is life after death through scientific means and experiments. He has a one million dollar offer to anyone who can prove his assertion false. So far no one has taken the prize and he claims that scientists won't even attempt it because they know it is futile. That and they are unwilling to break away from their long held practices and won't venture into studying the paranormal.

I find it fascinating and am glad that finally some are taking this subject seriously.

One more thing. This is an account of a lady's NDE. She had an aneurism (sp) in her brain that was almost impossible to operate on. A doctor tried a very risky procedure called a standstill. This is where they reduce the body's temperature, stop the heart, and cease all brain function. This woman had a NDE and afterwards could describe the equipment the doctors had used on her and things they said while operating. This was with a completely non-functioning brain.

This defies anyone who says that the NDE is a result of the last remnants of brain function before death causing the experience. Her case is documented and is truly amazing.

-Dinesh D'Souza's new book, Life After Death: The Evidence attempts to build a case on "unshakable scientific grounds" for the survival of consciousness beyond death

Famed former atheist philosopher Andrew Flew found enough scientific evidence of design in the universe to admit that it pointed to a Creator, but did not believe in an after life because he could not find enough evidence for what he considered the necessary chemical bonds to hold consciousness together outside the body.

-In the multiverse, physical laws can take on different values, and matter itself may have a different form, so "there is nothing in physics to contradict the idea that we can live beyond death in other realms with bodies that are unlike the bodies we now possess."

Which is what I have argued here for several years now..... Damn! I knew I should have written a book on this.

Personal Belief:

ANYTIME a theological belief is tied to current science, the theological belief will suffer from it, and the science won't do to well either.

I believe in Freedom "OF" Religion (which includes being non-religious, like me).
I OPPOSE Freedom "FROM" Religion.
But Seperation of Church and Science is a wise move.

"Science" is a non-issue for the spiritual. "IF" there is any truth to the existance of the Soul, then it is all about ethics, NOT science.

You can discount God and religion but it is very hard to discount the thousands of NDE reports that are out there.

It's easy to explain them. Your pineal gland releases a massive amount of DMT into your brain. DMT is probably the most intense and bizarre psychedelic drug I know of.

Interestingly, your body makes it, and the drug experience can resemble classical near-death experiences.

Famed former atheist philosopher Andrew Flew found enough scientific evidence of design in the universe to admit that it pointed to a Creator

Where?

It was spelled out to him in his morning bowl of Alpha-bits cereal.

It was spelled out to him in his morning bowl of Alpha-bits cereal.

Really?

Why can't your cereal give you something useful like stock tips?

It's easy to explain them. Your pineal gland releases a massive amount of DMT into your brain. DMT is probably the most intense and bizarre psychedelic drug I know of.

Is that true? Rick Strassman, Joe Rogan, and others believe so, but is there any proof of that?

I never trust my cereal for stock tips, I look to my Alphabet soup for that.

"Quantum Foam makes you roam"

I never trust my cereal for stock tips, I look to my Alphabet soup for that.

Well, duh. They make soup out of stock, not cereal. Look at your cereal for grain futures.

Well, duh. They make soup out of stock, not cereal.

#121 | Posted by goatman

Hysterical.

FF

lol

Exactly... so it would be entirely ridiculous for you to try to tell me the exact dimensions of the Colossus of Rhodes. As far as the ancient wonders go, Antipater of Sidon described them when they were still standing. The bible was written long after the death of Jesus by people who were deliberately trying to push a new religious movement.

Ancient historians were generally more credible than the authors of the bible, and their accounts can be compared against one another by modern historians. While there are ridiculous stories that crop up in historical accounts by even "reputable" figures, sane people generally don't believe them. Ancient sailors saw mermaids all of the time, and Pliny says he saw the god Triton. Do you believe them just because they wrote it? Of course not.

There's only one source of information on all of the resurrections, angels, demons, clairvoyance, and water-walking in the bible... and that's the bible. Why do people believe the stories of the bible without hesitation while not giving second thought to Pliny's encounter with a very different deity? There is equal evidence to support both, but many people forget that a popular lie has no more truth to it than a forgotten lie.

#110 | Posted by ZombieHunter at 2009-11-03 01:19 PM

...which has been defined rather clearly in the bible, (and other religious works, for that matter), as the existence of God.

Does the book 'The Psychedelic Experience: A Manual Based on the Tibetan Book of the Dead', by Timothy Leary count?

Where?

#115 | Posted by ZombieHunter

Anthony Flew: "There were two factors in particular that were decisive. One was my growing empathy with the insight of Einstein and other noted scientists that there had to be an Intelligence behind the integrated complexity of the physical Universe. The second was my own insight that the integrated complexity of life itself which is far more complex than the physical Universe can only be explained in terms of an Intelligent Source. I believe that the origin of life and reproduction simply cannot be explained from a biological standpoint despite numerous efforts to do so. With every passing year, the more that was discovered about the richness and inherent intelligence of life, the less it seemed likely that a chemical soup could magically generate the genetic code. The difference between life and non-life, it became apparent to me, was ontological and not chemical. The best confirmation of this radical gulf is Richard Dawkins' comical effort to argue in The God Delusion that the origin of life can be attributed to a "lucky chance." If that's the best argument you have, then the game is over. No, I did not hear a Voice. It was the evidence itself that led me to this conclusion."

from this interview

"insight of Einstein and other noted scientists that there had to be an Intelligence behind the integrated complexity of the physical Universe"

What utter pathetic fabricated horseshit.
Quite the contrary.

"It's a consequence of the experience of science. As you learn more and more about the universe, you find you can understand more and more without any reference to supernatural intervention, so you lose interest in that possibility. Most scientists I know don't care enough about religion even to call themselves atheists. And that, I think, is one of the great things about science -- that it has made it possible for people not to be religious."
-- Steven Weinberg

"Does the book 'The Psychedelic Experience: A Manual Based on the Tibetan Book of the Dead', by Timothy Leary count? "

Do the "spiritual experiences" sometimes reported by users of psychedelic drugs any less valid than those who choose to wander deserts for 40 years? Just wondering.

Funny how the WINGNUTS want to believe this fantasy is based on scientific facts and is for real...

YET

They condemn Global Warming data which IS based on solid scientific evidence as something that is make believe!?!

I am SO GLAD I do not live in that wingnut bubble world!

#93 | Posted by bocaink at 2009-11-03 12:50 AM | Reply | Flag: Well said.

The bible was written long after the death of Jesus by people who were deliberately trying to push a new religious movement.

#110 | Posted by ZombieHunter at 2009-11-03 01:19 PM | Reply | Flag:

Yes they were, and you make a good point ZombieHunter, but the Hebrew Bible was largely complete 400 years before the crucification of Jesus. The Greek scriptures of the New Testament were written 30 to 90 years after that event, perhaps including material from eye-witnesses.

Stories of resurrection weren't limited to the Bible. Apollonius of Tyana, a Greek philosopher and a contemporary of Jesus, was said to have resurrected the dead. It was a sign of the God-Man, and a popular theme in ancient times in many cultures.

t's easy to explain them. Your pineal gland releases a massive amount of DMT into your brain. DMT is probably the most intense and bizarre psychedelic drug I know of.

Interestingly, your body makes it, and the drug experience can resemble classical near-death experiences.

#114 | Posted by ZombieHunter

did you just stop reading at the point you disagreed with? I explained that a woman had a NDE with zero brain activity whatsoever. Her brain was completely non-functioning. It was made that way thru surgery. So, tell me how your pineal gland releases DMT into a non-functioning brain. There was no brain activity what so ever. There's always someone who thinks they have the easy answer.

"Your pineal gland releases massive amounts of DMT into your brain...."

At the moment of death? And that was established how? Journal citation needed here to establish this isn't urban legend, not some gooofy website, unless that website features a peer-reviewed sicnetific paper on the subject.

And if that happens, why doesn't everyone who is resusciated from clinical death report NDE's? Malfunctioning pineal glands?

The crux of NDE's is whether or not persons experiencing them have access to information not physically possible for them to possess.

As D'Souza references, scientists are interested enough in that possibility to design experiments to find out.

As D'Souza and/or the author correctly states, if data is collected that affirms this phenomenon (not NDE's per se, but information acquisition) then the door is opened to a wholly new concept of mind not based on what we now understand to be physicality.

The entire notion is so contrary to the amterialist worldview, so much at odds with that religion, that I'm surprised there are scientists out there willing to chance questioning it.

Way to go boys.

"Did you stop reading at the point you disagreed with....?"

Yup.

"There's always someone who thinks they have the easy answer...."

There's always people who need the easy answer.

There's always people who need the easy answer.

The simple answers often describe the most complex situations.

E=mc^2

I just glanced at the "evidence" in regards to DMT and NDE's. You materialists need to watch it or someone's going to accuse you of making stuff up in order to facilitate a new religous movement.

Incontrovertible fact of afterlife- IF we can get a few people to verify, THEN we will have to rewrite the books...

sheesh.

If I had a billion dolars THEN I would have to rewrite my history.

bogus. When the brain is starving from hypoxia you see weird things and it isnt afterlife. People with strokes are constantly walking around "outside" of the body. That is just damged limbic center.

get a life.

"Journal citation needed here to establish this isn't urban legend, not some gooofy website..."

Perhaps some "goofy book" would suffice? Compiled by some goofy guy with a goofy M.D.? At some goofy university?

Eh, Goofy?

Dr. Rick Strassman, while conducting DMT research in the 1990s at the University of New Mexico, advanced the theory that a massive release of DMT from the pineal gland prior to death or near death was the cause of the near death experience (NDE) phenomenon. Several of his test subjects reported NDE-like audio or visual hallucinations. His explanation for this was the possible lack of panic involved in the clinical setting and possible dosage differences between those administered and those encountered in actual NDE cases. Several subjects also reported contact with 'other beings', alien like, insectoid or reptilian in nature, in highly advanced technological environments[20] where the subjects were 'carried', 'probed', 'tested', 'manipulated', 'dismembered', 'taught', 'loved' and even 'raped' by these 'beings'.

I'm still reading...

What DMT Is
This chapter reviews the historical and botanical bases of human's relationship with DMT, the modern era of which began in the mid-1950's when Dr. Stephen Sz�ra's injected DMT into himself and his physician colleagues in his Budapest Hungary laboratory. Scientific interest in DMT increased dramatically with its discovery in human body fluids, by which it became the first endogenous, or naturally produced, psychedelic. Psychiatry focused on its possible role in schizophrenia, but political pressures forced an early abandonment of this promising line of research. A fundamental role of DMT in our consciousness is suggested by the brain's actively transporting DMT into its confines, using precious energy. DMT may be a spirit molecule, naturally produced and capable of transporting us to different states of mind and unimaginable realms of experience. The pineal gland seemed to me the most likely place to look for this endogenous DMT.
The Pineal: Meet the Spirit Gland
A chance encounter as an undergraduate at Stanford University introduced me to this tiny but potent organ, as a possible source of "inner light." Eastern and Western mystics locate the highest "organ" of consciousness at this site, and Descartes believed body, soul, and mind cleaved to each other in the pineal. The contemporary "melatonin theory of pineal function" began in the 1960's, when this pineal hormone's reproductive effects and responsiveness to light were discovered in lower animals. I review what we know about pineal function, especially regarding melatonin. In order to begin searching for an endogenous spirit molecule, I performed a two-year study of human melatonin effects at the University of New Mexico. Melatonin's mental properties were disappointingly mild. Thus, I needed to look at other potential pineal products as candidates for a spirit molecule, and turned to DMT.
The Psychedelic Pineal
A "DMT theory of pineal function" has great appeal, as many of the necessary ingredients and enzymes for its formation exist in remarkably high concentrations in the pineal. Building upon existing data, I present several scenarios in which the pineal may produce DMT instead of melatonin. I speculate about endogenous DMT's role in dreams, meditation, birth, near-death, and death. I suggest that the individual's life-force enters the body through the pineal at 49 days after conception, and leaves it through the pineal gland at death. This 49-day prenatal period corresponds to the first signs of fetal pineal tissue, the differentiation of the gonads into male and female, and how long it takes between the death of an individual and its soul's next rebirth according to the Tibetan Buddhist tradition. I suggest a meta-physical model in which biological, psychological, and spiritual drives or impulses all may exist in a dynamic tension within this spirit gland.

Of course, the jury is out...Strassman's ideas may very well be proven to be based upon a misunderstanding...but the above ought to at least demonstrate that DMT is a naturally-occurring chemical byproduct of the brain...at least one that's not manufactured and divined by Jeebus himself...

"DMT may be a spirit molecule, naturally produced and capable of transporting us to different states of mind and unimaginable realms of experience"

Don't know about the "spirit" part of it, but DMT certainly is intense. Not particularly pleasant, either.

Wow!

ZOMG!

"Incontrovertible fact of afterlife- IF we can get a few people to verify, THEN we will have to rewrite the books..."

Hooooly shit!

I thought the "Paranormal" documentaries on A&E were proof enough of the afterlife...

....

DUCK, Y'ALL!!!!!!!!!!!

The Amityville Killer be on the loose!!!!!!

for dummies:

What have we learned today?

Do Ketamine.

Lots and lots of it.

How else could one be closer to nature??!?

Dissociative experiences are produced naturally by the body (as it's dying)!

That means it's OK to abuse!!!

You ever hear any of thes Rogan rants on DMT, Zarathusatra?

Don't know about the "spirit" part of it, but DMT certainly is intense.

If you're naive to DMT or psychedelics you will very likely experience "spirit contacts".

Not particularly pleasant, either.

To each his own. Or her own. Some people like the place that DMT will take you. Others hate it. Ever heard of DIPT? N,N-diisopropyltryptamine... for whatever reason it only effects your ability to perceive sounds. They're such simple molecules, but so remarkable in their effects.

"To each his own. Or her own. Some people like the place that DMT will take you. "

Of course. I'm not dissing DMT. It's an interesting substance. But it seems more dysphoric than euphoric, as compared to psilocybin or lsd.

What have we learned today?

Do Ketamine.

Lots and lots of it.

Sounds like a productive day.

I'm not dissing DMT. It's an interesting substance. But it seems more dysphoric than euphoric, as compared to psilocybin or lsd.

With those drugs, dysphoria or euphoria are a product of set, setting, and and individual's unique biological quirks. I know people who have experienced bliss on DMT, and I know people who have experienced terror.

As they say, "To fathom hell or soar angelic, take a pinch of psychedelic..."

Remarkable chemicals, but they demand respect. Not to be trifled with.

Listen people, it's really this simple.

If you're religious, STFU about it. Live a good life and if someone is interested in what motivates you, tell 'em about it. Otherwise STFU.

If you're not religious, STFU about it. Let others see your life and when they ask about it, explain you're not being religious motivates you to do good things.

All else is arrogance and bull shit.

In closing, STFU.

The "magic" mushroom experience can be less than magical...the best time on psychadelics I've ever had was when my buddy and I ate some 'shrooms we'd grown together. 'twas magical, to say the least!!!

I've had less than "euphoric" experiences on LSD...it's possible...those that end up dragging you kicking and screaming up to the mirror to face yourself, and question everything you've been doing...and those are the *nicer* parts.

It's a good thing that the masses don't have access to LSD, a la Timothy Leary's prescription...(fuckin' lunatic)...

"To fathom hell or soar angelic, take a pinch of psychedelic..."

I had 300 microgram Orange Sunshine back in the 70s. I experienced both.

"Remarkable chemicals, but they demand respect. Not to be trifled with."

Damned straight. They are not recreational drugs. Cannabis, yes. DMT, LSD, psilocybin, mescaline, no.

"I've had less than "euphoric" experiences on LSD...it's possible...those that end up dragging you kicking and screaming up to the mirror to face yourself, and question everything you've been doing...and those are the *nicer* parts."

No such thing as a bad trip. Or so they say. Well, actually there is, if you physically endanger yourself, but a "bad trip" may be more therapeutic/insightful, etc., than a "good trip" if that's what you're looking for.

My grandfather (and his brother) was an MD and DO as well. Not many of them around anymore

They both went through medical school on all-state football scholarships and both died by suicide (20 years apart)

A psychiatrist (formerly M.D.) and a neurologist (formerly-formerly D.O.)...that's what dad did before "the cancer" got to him.

...and now you all know a big part of why I "contribute" (lash out) around here...

What've *you* got to share with the class...??

What've *you* got to share with the class...??

Well, I hate to rain on a good drug party, but it is pretty much a known fact in my family that my grandfather and g'uncle (the MD and DO) did themselves in because of substance abuse.

Ironically neither used drugs to do it. THey both sucked on the end of a 12 gauge.

I'm in current possession of the one my grandfather used

"it is pretty much a known fact in my family that my grandfather and g'uncle (the MD and DO) did themselves in because of substance abuse."

And that has what to do with the fucking price of rice in China?

And that has what to do with the fucking price of rice in China?

Absolutely nothing as far as I know. My grandfather died in 1965 and his brother in 1845. I am not at all familiar with what the grain commodoties in Asia were doing at that time, but my gut feeling is that their deaths were pretty much invisible to them.

My grandfather died in 1965 and his brother in 1845.

Wow. Good trick.

Wow. Good trick.

I guess

I had read about his experiments in the ER rooms, with the pictures that only someone hovering above the operating table at a substantial distance would be able to see.

Neat stuff.

Would love to see a larger trial of that and in multiple locations.

If he can provide experimental data that supports his hypothesis then well.. its on!

At that point the next trick is to attempt to interact directly with people while they are in that state. and get them to have a look round and really make note of what they are experiencing..
Unfortunately, for most people, they are a bit preoccupied when they are in such a state, what with holes in them or heart attacks or whatever acute situation has landed them on the table.

"My grandfather died in 1965 and his brother in 1845"

Wow. Your grandfather outlived his brother by 120 years. Biblical!

Ironically neither used drugs to do it. THey both sucked on the end of a 12 gauge.
I'm in current possession of the one my grandfather used

#162 | POSTED BY GOATMAN AT 2009-11-04 02:35 AM | REPLY | FLAG:

Care full with that spliff Eugene!

Wow. Your grandfather outlived his brother by 120 years. Biblical!

bOoB logic would dictate that. Common sense points to a typo. (the 8&9 keys are right next to each other on my keyboard, my fingers big, and it's dark. But don't tell bOoB. He always goes for the most unlikely explanation)

Of course I knew that ....

I know you did. I was getting a jab in at da bOoB who is now lurking and reading my every post

Regarding Out-Of-Body- and Near-Death Experiences (OBEs and NDEs, respectively):

One explanation for these experiences includes the notion that they represent a very unusual activation of our brain's spatial perception. In this explanation, a person who's having an out of body experience perceives themselves as having a different location in space than their body. If this model is valid, then activation of any one of the brain areas responsible for spatial perception may be required for an OBE.

The angular gyrus is a small area in the temporal-parietal-occipital region of brain's surface. One possibility is that the epileptic who was having an out of body experience in this study was one whose seizural activity included the angular gyrus so that particular area of their brain was more sensitive than other areas (that also contribute to the experience). In addition to this area, there are other candidates. One of them is the hippocampus, and the other is an area of the brain's cortex which is directly connected to the hippocampus called the parahippocampal region.

They point to an area on the surface of the brain known as the angular gyrus. The angular gyrus is thought to play a role in the way the brain analyzes sensory information that allow us to perceive our bodies. When it misfires, they suggest, the result can be a sense of floating, and seeing the world from outside of the body. The findings were published in the respected science journal "Nature".

Zarathustra

There are many recorded instances of OBE's/NDE's where patients who were unconscious with their eyes closed who later described in minute detail the actions of attending medical personnel that could only have been seen from above. Perhaps reading a card wouldn't be the priority of someone in that position. Who knows? We'll all know one day one way or the other one day ....

"Am I posting on a brick wall....?"

Nope. But you have this curious tendency to accept hypothesis as being established fact. I'm also reminded you consistently fail to discern a well-designed experiment from a poor one.

I'm not positing NDE's as evidence of God or even an afterlife. Some people apparently are but their more than matched by persons such as you who are absolutely postive they are something else based on evidence entirely as scant.

If you want to be consistent with your principles, so-called, then be consistent. Until you are, brick walls think better than you do.

Once again the essential point is acquisition of new information that could not be acquired given physical limitations of body and perception.

An unusual reconstruction of space by the nervous system won't give you that, as the brain can only reconstruct with information it can acquire physically.

The scientists constructing these new studies understand that, and are compensating for it in their design.

From your perspective, again recently stated, these scientists are also "brick walls". Time to consider that the progress of science might sometimes be blocked by realists such as yourself.

Just in passing: WIKIPEDIA is useful as trivia, sometimes. A peer-reviewed journal citation it isn't. Ask your professors.

"Perhaps some goofy book would suffice...?"

It might if it answered the question posed to you. I know you get it; I think you must be playing games. You get an "F".

"Did you stop reading at the point you disagreed with....?"

Yup.

#134 | Posted by Zed

Maybe you shouldn't have and saved yourself from looking foolish.

Zarathustra

There are many recorded instances of OBE's/NDE's where patients who were unconscious with their eyes closed who later described in minute detail the actions of attending medical personnel that could only have been seen from above. Perhaps reading a card wouldn't be the priority of someone in that position. Who knows? We'll all know one day one way or the other one day ....

#174 | Posted by Timex at 2009-11-04 04:41 AM

If I have time today I will find the link to the article that tells of the woman who had a NDE with zero brain function while undergoing surgery.

How the hell can you prove anything with a theory?

Do I look profound or poetic?

#34 | Posted by Zed at

no but it is certainly apparent that you are trying

"Please do...."

In any detail I won't here. It's entirely too personal. It's nothing like a dog trick or look-ma-the-Loch Ness monster. It would involve spilling my guts in a way inappropriate to what is a very vicious and unforgiving cyber environment.

#90 | Posted by Zed

I call bullshit, if it is so powerful to base your beliefs upon then why hide your light under a bushel. Fear not the naysayers, have the courage of your convictions.

Otherwise i call bullshit, that you are afraid that perhaps you know you are wrong.

As you know, if you are willing to make one small assumption (i.e. faith), everything else becomes so obvious

and all it takes is accepting the congnitive dissonance. I call that insanity.

If I just believe the pink elephants are real, everything else in life is soooo simple.

Zed says: If you want nothing, I'm pretty sure you'll have that in abundance.

what do you want, Zed?

'How the hell can you prove anything with a theory?'

#182 | Posted by Sniper

Theorems are the ONLY way scientific knowledge progresses.

The is no ULTIMATE PROOF waiting out there - Science moves forward when someone creates a theory.

You can obtain facts to support the theory. The theory will stand as the best available unless or until someone creates a BETTER theory to explain facts obtained.

You may have noticed a thing called the THEORY of GRAVITY? WHY do you think it is described as a THEORY?

When you gain understanding to this concept you will answer your question. IF you really WANT an answer and assuming it is not a rhetorical question.

Does not matter if you BELIEVE in the theory of gravity or not - if you jump off a cliff you WILL plummet to the ground.

Same with the THEORY of evolution, Theory of Relativity, etc.

I hate it when the wingnuts start raving about not teaching Evolution in school because it is only a theory and is not proven. A theory is never PROVEN - it simply stands until a BETTER theory comes along.

This is the scientific method and it is PROVEN to work!

Gonna go out on a limb here and suggest that he wants something.

Does not matter if you BELIEVE in the theory of gravity or not - if you jump off a cliff you WILL plummet to the ground.

Obey Gravity.

It's more than just a good idea.

Listen people, it's really this simple.

If you're religious, STFU about it. Live a good life and if someone is interested in what motivates you, tell 'em about it. Otherwise STFU.

If you're not religious, STFU about it. Let others see your life and when they ask about it, explain you're not being religious motivates you to do good things.

All else is arrogance and bull shit.

In closing, STFU.

Best post of the thread.

If only it were plausible.

#190 | Posted by jpw

I'll second that.

Once again the essential point is acquisition of new information that could not be acquired given physical limitations of body and perception.

You cannot acquire information through physically impossible mechanisms.

When someone appears to have done so, a rational individual will look at how a natural mechanism can create an apparently supernatural effect. An irrational individual will presume that the supernatural explanation is accurate without searching for more reasonable explanations.

If you're not religious, STFU about it. Let others see your life and when they ask about it, explain you're not being religious motivates you to do good things.

I used to think like that. But, when I discovered that organized Religion was using millions of dollars each year and during campaigns (like the recent one in Maine)to influence the law to make EVERYONE conform to THEIR belief system. That is when I decided that STFU did not work anymore. Especially if STFU is only one sided.

So, I am sorry, you have to STFU about that and realize that if you STFU then you will be soon living in a Theocracy controlled by the Religion with the most money.

I used to think like that. But, when I discovered that organized Religion was using millions of dollars each year and during campaigns (like the recent one in Maine)to influence the law to make EVERYONE conform to THEIR belief system. That is when I decided that STFU did not work anymore. Especially if STFU is only one sided.

So, I am sorry, you have to STFU about that and realize that if you STFU then you will be soon living in a Theocracy controlled by the Religion with the most money.

#193 | Posted by donnerboy at 2009-11-04 01:54 PM

Again, learn to read.

Live or Die,

Look man, your handle says it all....your soul can live if you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior. If not, you can choose to send your soul into a burning abyss of fire for eternity.

Pretty simple: Live or Die...how appropriate.

(chuckle)

Actually, it's none of my business to decide who God favors or not. I believe that some things in the bible have been altered by the translators to serve themselves, and I believe that some words in ancient languages have been translated inappropriately. There is a lot of evidence of the latter. But, I love how dismissive you are of faith and quick to create a caricature of something you really don't understand.

I'll never tell to STFU about your beliefs and I don't go out of my way to push my beliefs on you...But, I will share my opinion on a topic like this. All I'm saying is if you compare the maturity in Zed's and my argument, compared with the grade-school level retorts from your viewpoint...you look silly dude!

#195 | Posted by bocaink at 2009-11-04 03:25 PM

You didn't comprehend the post. It obviously wasn't aimed at people talking amongst themselves about a topic they're interested in. I flat out said, if someone is interested in what motivates you, tell 'em about it.

It's the proselytizers, people who just can't accept that someone else may have come to a different conclusion on a subject we'll probably never know for sure on, who feel the need to try and go around changing everyone's mind on it, that cause trouble. THAT's who it was aimed at.

No wonder I thought Distort D'Newza sounds like Ann Coulter - he used to be in a relationship with her!

Combining rabid right wing extreme anti communism philosophy WITH religious dogma - VERY BAD COMBO.

Live or Die,

I got your point and I really wasn't grilling you either. For the most part, I was agreeing with you. The first part of #195 was a little sarcasm. I really don't know what has been correctly and incorrectly interpreted in the bible, and I can't rationize a God that would condemn the large majority of his creations into a burning pit of fire...I think that was a bit of fear-mongering by translators IMHO.

However, I am a bit biased on the proselytizers to the point. I just walk away from the religious ones while I laugh at the atheistic mock-patrol. That, of course, is my bias being a Christian. I don't particularly care for either. As much as you guys rag on Zed for his beliefs, I don't think he is proselytizer by any degree. He, like me, weighs in his opinion from a (rather progressive) Christian point of view. You guys like to jump on him the first chance you get in nearly every thread like this. I get the abuse too when I hold a stand like that on some threads....Don't get me wrong, I love it and often will stoke the fire a little bit. But I was basically agreeing with you on about 75 percent of what you were posting.

#198 | Posted by bocaink at 2009-11-04 04:11 PM

I'm a christian too, thought somewhat agnostic. And on religious matters I like Zed's input. That post wasn't put up because he was here chatting on the subject of the thread.

And on religious matters I like Zed's input.

Seriously? The DR has its fair share of well-spoken believers, but Zed's a little zany. Corky's take is usually pretty interesting, though.

You know what? I have to eat my humble pie for a second...I mistook some of Billo's comments for yours. My bad, I just re-read the thread. And as we all know, billo is billo, and this thread is right in billo's wheelhouse for billo to do what billo does.

Mia culpa.

I MOCK YOU BILLO!

Seriously? The DR has its fair share of well-spoken believers, but Zed's a little zany. Corky's take is usually pretty interesting, though.

#200 | Posted by ZombieHunter at 2009-11-04 04:21 PM

And he puts a lot of stock in the journey of seeking something beyond what we know. As a bit of an agnostic who still chooses faith, that resonates with me.

Where I usually don't agree is his way of sizing up non-believers.

I realize this post is probably out there as well. haha!

Mia culpa.

#201 | Posted by bocaink at 2009-11-04 04:26 PM

Here is the link to the guy who claims that he has proven that life after death exists. He even has his whole book posted on the website so you can go in and see how he reached his conclusions.

And all this crap about having to be saved to go to heaven is just that. Crap. Victor Zammit's research with renowned mediums seems to point to a place we go that has different levels. Most people who are just regular normal every day good people will end up going to the third level. Suicides and evil people will go to the bottom level but this is not hell. There is no hell, except for the one a soul creates for itself for the guilt it has for what it did on earth. i.e. suicide or murder.

It's fascinating stuff and you are missing something if you don't check out the link I provided above. Also, do yourself a favor and read thru stories here.

This is where I have a little internal dilemma. I was saved....I mean I had a literal religious experience where I physically felt the forgiveness of Christ, and immediately, my worries were gone. It happened back in 2000, and it was as real as it could be.

At the same time, I agree with you, everlong, or the writer you are citing. Through that experience I got the same impression about different levels of afterlife. That type of knowledge came with the religious experience. I also believe that heaven and "hell" are different levels of afterlife. Perhaps being "saved" puts in "heaven," which is a specific location in the afterlife, or multiverse, or whatever it is termed.

When I die my soul will travel the multiverse just like DR. STRANGE!

It happened back in 2000, and it was as real as it could be.

#207 | Posted by bocaink at 2009-11-04 07:43 PM

My best friend and I went through it at the same exact time....Yer not the first one to say it either. I know 7 or 8 other people that I've met from about 2000-2005, that also did too. You would be number 9 I think. Instinctively, I'm pretty sure I'm gonna meet 12 altogether (biblical symbolism possibly?). But, if yours was similar to mine, you kinda get what I'm saying. Everyone else I've talked to about had some differences in experience, but it was pretty similar. Pray tell???

I realize this post is probably out there as well. haha!

No, I definitely understand where you're coming from.