Crickets chirping

Not a whole lot of responses from the pro-life right on this thread.

I'll answer.

It's not universal health care that I am opposed to. In fact, I think it's a necessity.

It's the contents within the proposed health care plan that I object to.

I don't believe elective procedures like abortion should be covered. Those should be out of pocket expenses.

Ain't that always the case Roy Batty. bwhahahahaha

Larry

I don't see why any sane individual would expect pro-lifers to support a health care plan that covers abortion but I agree with the general sentiment that if you believe all life is sacred then you should be more than willing to support universal care. If you're pro-life because you claim Christian beliefs, you'd have a really hard time claiming that Jesus would rather drive a BMW than be taxed more heavily to provide healthcare to the needy.

They will try to explain why Jesus would want them to have a tax break and not help support their fellow man.

......well.....they would be if they were really PRO-LIFERS.......

....but someone made a typo at the naming convention and........

.....well ...they are acutally PRE-LIFERS.....once the suckers are born they are not their problem anymore......

#2 | Posted by Lisa: I don't believe elective procedures like abortion should be covered.

So you can tolerate more unborn babies being terminated in favor of your belief that elective procedures should not be covered? I just don't understand that. I would rather do whatever I could to prevent more babies from being terminated.

Does that mean that pro-choicers should not support universsal health?

How about support an efficient single payer plan and not a boondoggle extra layer of waste 'public option'?

If abortion is an elevtive procedure, thatn I would argue that maternity coverage should be a mandate of insurance because that is also a CHOICE. HINT 1973.

should not

*** I really don't see how pro-life supporters could do anything else. ****

.....they don't do their own thinking, so you get paradoxes like this......

I would happily accept government healthcare if that would really mean the end of all abortions. I don't see anyone offering that, in fact the house legislation covers abortions and requires all insurance to cover it, if I read it correctly. It clearly hasn't stopped them in any other country with universal healthcare, besides, you can already get health insurance or medicaid for children pretty easily.

Now, if the healthcare legislation DIDN'T cover abortions, but did cover adoptions, prenatal care, and all things children in general, then we have a place to start a discussion.

I would also happily accept a tax increase if that meant there would be no abortions, but I haven't seen anyone offering that either.

Just for the record

If you are pro life and feel that the public option isn't an efficient use of government time/money/resources, but you are pro life, you should be obligated into supporting the reform that you view as inefficient?

I don't find that to be a compelling argument, hope4. Abortion is not an issue I really care about at all and I don't support the public option as it stands now, so I guess I'm free from this 'paradox'

#13 | Posted by LEgregius

.....the health care bill not influence the number of abortions one way or another......

......but it will help millions of the living.....

so I guess I'm free from this 'paradox'

#15 | Posted by andyuhenet

.....from one of them anyways.......

#15 | Posted by andyuhenet

The GOP opposed SCHIPS for kids, paid for with a cigarette tax.

.....they don't do their own thinking, so you get paradoxes like this......

#12 | Posted by skizziks at 2009-11-02 04:45 PM | Reply | Flag:

It does not require much - a binary argument. You are either for killing innocent life or against it. You don't even have to use religion to answer. Isn't that great? Explain away oh once former Christian.

Conservatives promote self-sufficiency.

I support universal health care but don't support coverage for abortion.

That being said, if universal health goes through, I have no doubt it will pay for abortions and may actually somehow subtly encourage them.

The issue will turn not on ethics but on money. The government will much rather spend a thousand dollars aborting a child than having to spend money providing health services for said individual for an entire lifetime.

"The government will much rather spend a thousand dollars aborting a child than having to spend money providing health services for said individual for an entire lifetime.

#21 | Posted by Grendel"

Similarly, many anti-choice organizations will much rather spend a thousand dollars trying to deny access to pregnant women than spend a thousand dollars trying to help a born child in need.

Timex, well if the target is big tobacco then any legislation should be passed, is that better?

Paying for shit with taxes on smoker's is dumb because if the tax works and people stop smoking, then you can't pay for the SCHIP anymore.

Wouldn't you rather have a single payer than have to worry about SCHIPs, public options, medicare/medicaid, VA, the uninsurable...

Or do you tow the party line and defend what the Dems are proposing?

The post misses the point. This same argument went for social security. I dare say that social security is a failure - because govt. was involved. If the government left the money in the hands of people instead of forcing social security, there would be a lot more around that people could retire on.

There are alternatives to universal care that are not being explored, that I believe would lead to a cheaper, more effective system overall.

Abortion as an elective is what the law profs call a slippery slope. It's elective if she just remembered she's due on prom day. It's pretty mandatory is without a terminated pregnancy she dies. The reality usually falls somewhere in between. Do we eliminate all public funds for this purpose, even if required to save a life. Or do we let the old D.R.'s fetal rights bunch write the rules? herm

#23 | Posted by andyuhenet

You moved the goal posts and got onto another topic.

The GOP opposed health insurance for kids. Period.

So much for 'pro-life'.

they ought to:

1. Increase HSA limits, encourage broader participation.
2. Encourage use of high deductible plans, and force medical providers to provide pricing disclosures so that there is some competition. Right now, most doctors cannot tell you what a routing physical cost or checkup even costs.
3. Get rid of the tax break for employees benefits. They should be taxed, and then employees would not be so resistant to downgrades on their health plans. Do away with self employed's being able to deduct premium payments.
4. Enforce Stark I and Stark II more aggressively.
5. Forbid doctor/machine provider partnerships and other creative financing tools that oversupply our markets with tools and are really inefficient use of resources.
6. Get rid of the tough building standards that apply to hospitals. The cost per square foot to build facilities is far too high.
7. No county or government run facilities. They are inefficient because governmental entities can't stand up to unions and other special interests.
8. No care to illegal immigrants who cannot pay for their care. People talk about putting employers in jail for hiring them, why provide health care for them?
9. Forbid pharma consumer advertising on prescription drugs - forbid pharma kickbacks to MDs.
10. Outsource Medical fraud investigations to private folks who do a better job at stopping such fraud.
11. Never mandate prevailing wage on building of hospital facilities.
12. Provide safe harbors from lawsuits to MDs who can demonstrate that they acted within guidelines.
13. Encourage electronic storage of records, and use of checklists within hospitals to minimize stupid mistakes that cost lives.
14. Offer some incentives for preventative care, and allow emergency rooms to turn away non-emergent cases without liability.

see how it goes after true effort. maybe our kids won't be saddled with a shitty system, expanding deficits, and extremely rationed care (which is coming, and is inhumane).

Timex: I already said I could care less about the pro-life end of things, abortion isn't an issue for me. Do you have comprehension problems?

As to SCHIP, yes Republican's opposed it, I didn't deny that. It's dumb and misleading to legislate through sin taxes, you however like sin taxes and thats a legitimate disagreement we have.

Now, I am for a single payer system, which is much better than SCHIP, don't you agree?

I guess thats me moving the goal posts...

Would you rather have SCHIP or a program that makes the need for SCHIP moot?

Somoco nice list but you have nothing listed on how you plan to cover the uninsured.

I'd like single payer. Insurance companies are only money bundlers. They provide no service whatsoever yet eat up up to 30% of every health care dollar in the U.S.

Somoco how do you plan on delivering care to the working poor? Or do you not give a flying fuck about them? I'm talking about the people making 25K that make too much for medicaid but not enough for real insurance.

Jack - the premise of Somoco's argument is that his reforms will allow the working poor to afford 'real insurance'

#13 | Posted by LEgregius: I would happily accept government healthcare if that would really mean the end of all abortions.

Stats suggest that it could get you more than 50 percent of the way there. Does cutting the number of terminated babies by half count for anything?

Now, if the healthcare legislation DIDN'T cover abortions, but did cover adoptions, prenatal care, and all things children in general, then we have a place to start a discussion.

Private insurance policies cover abortion (it's legal in the U.S.) so do you reject the private plans as well? Just like private insurance the public policies will be paid for with premiums from the public.

Andy what about the uninsurable. Nothing listed there. High deductible insurance means that much routine care is missed because having to come out of pocket is hard for somebody making 10 an hour.

That's a good point, Jack. What if the gov offered a $500 tax rebate that people would get after tax time, and if they need to apply that toward a deductible then they can, or use it for co-pays? If they decide to never go visit the doctor they'd pocket a cool $500 from Uncle Sucker, or something similar?

(Actually I already know the answer, insurance companies would raise deductibles / copays accordingly, but it's something to think about!)

Well, as a pro-lifer myself, I totally agree with the idea. Way too many Republicans hide behind this belief that the unborn are innocent, and the poor get what they deserve. If you want to bring "religion" into it, what did Jesus do? Jesus fed the poor, he healed the sick, he mostly avoided the rich to spend time with the poor and sick. If you want to look it up, here are a few verses: Luke 4:16-21; Luke 14:7-14; Luke 14:15-24; Luke 7:22-23. That is just a few examples of the many, but I have one more, and this is the big one: Matthew 25:31-46
31"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
34 "Then the King will say to those on His right, Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.' 37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40 "The King will answer and say to them, Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'
41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' 44 "Then they themselves also will answer, Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' 45 "Then He will answer them, Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

I don't see anything biblically where they had health insurance in Jesus' time. Also, I don't see where he advocated for it-- this whole post is ridiculous along with the bantering about said prolifers' responsibility.

#38 | Posted by Ineffable

Amen to that.

#38------""will say to those on His right,Come, you who are blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom"-------"will say to those on His left, Depart from, accursed ones, into the eternal fire"------Ineffable,are you making a political statement?

"If the government left the money in the hands of people instead of forcing social security, there would be a lot more around that people could retire on.
#24 | Posted by somoco"

Do you think there would be a lot more retirees living on the streets, if people weren't forced to save thru the SS system?

He knows there would be but he could care less. He also knows 401K's aren't guaranteed. Imagine losing everything in the market and having to live on charity even though you saved your whole life.

Monte and Jack - I think that people should be allowed to have their SS funds placed into mutual funds and that those same people can't complain if the market tanks.

Being pro-choice with your social security money is a good thing.

I hope you were joking Matsop about the political thing. I am a born again Christian, as most of you can figure out, but I am certainly not a republican. I am also not a democrat. If you look at the whole thing, these two parties have only been around for a very short time, so how can Christian and republican truely be synonymous when most Christians who have ever lived have never even heard of the republican party?

The Big Guy would've voted for Reagan, we all know it. They love supply side economics in heaven.

#45--- Yes, Ineffable, I am joking and couldn't resist the part of the passages about the right and the left (ideologies of the right and left, not questioning your political affiliation -- it was written with tongue in cheek and play on words). By the way, I'm right there with you as far as the passages and what the Lord emulated on this sorry earth. Thanks for the post.

"None of the bills retains longstanding current policies against abortion funding or abortion coverage mandates, and none fully protects conscience rights in health care."

Those facts are demonstratably true.

And just because one subjectively says that shouldn't matter doesn't make it so.

Here's another FACT:
Pro-life DEMOCRATS will be the death of the public option (apparently proabort Dems can't/won't restrain themselves).

This is a worthy debate though.

I know two families personally who don't have health insurance because they believe in, and practice divine physical healing.

And they've each prayed for people who've been sick (one was blind) who got completely healed.

Something about a Great Physician.

You might be able to imagine how people like THAT may be less than thrilled about a public option.

I, however, pay dearly for health insurance and urge responsible people to have such.

.....they don't do their own thinking, so you get paradoxes like this......#12 | Posted by skizziks at 2009-11-02 04:45 PM | Reply

A lot of insults
But very scant evidence
AGAIN.

How many abortions have you been personally involved in?

Universal Health Care will result in Rationing, and Rationing will result in hundreds of thousands and most likely multi millions of lives cut short by a Government and a population with an attitude that don't give a damn as long as they get theirs.
That is exactly what it will fast become.

Americans that will work and is able to gain employment are getting fewer and fewer every day, and more and more businesses is folding, and illegals are infiltrating this
country applying for food-stamps, Medicade, Medicare, and other socialist government giveaway programs they can get, and the working few cannot support a hungry starving nation and their money starving government, along with the debts of our broke nation. Not only unborn fetuses murdered, but all ages will be affected, esp. elderly.

Healt Care Rationing will be wide spread, every state, county and community. Many, many lives will be neglected and cut short, it will happen, it can't help but be so under our present WARPED political system, it will and cannot work...

"Universal Health Care will result in Rationing"

Here's a clue, sparky: the future will result in rationing. You can't go from 6 payers-per-user to 3-to-1 without a lot of sacrifices.

all insurance is a scam. No matter who runs it. The government will try to tell us what to do "based on costs" just like an insurance company will try to screw people out of coverage they have payed for "based on costs". Cycle continues. The only problem is the government has much more power to control our lives and tell us what we can and cant do as individuals. Anyone that thinks this wont result in government sticking more of their noses in what is our business is insane.

If you think it wont happen just take a look at social security. They keep raising the retirement age, taxing benefits, reducing benefits. Why? Because it is costing too much. Sounds just like an insurance scam to me.

And they've each prayed for people who've been sick (one was blind) who got completely healed.

#49 | Posted by kirk at 2009-11-02 10:19 PM | Reply | Flag:

And you believed them. I guess it didn't make the newspapers anyplace, or any medical journals. It just happened in a church someplace and everybody kept it secret. Even the person who got their sight back didn't tell anyone in the media. What a surprise. Ever wonder how many blind people prayed for their sight to be restored? I would bet that the vast majority gave it a shot---not much response. I would bet that many people prayed before going into the gas showers in WWII--not much response. What a powerful message had all that gas been turned into laughing gas, and all the bullets didn't work, and all the men still trying to kill innocents fell over dead. That would be something to talk about.

Buffalo Bob,
Look up Corrie Ten Boom.
In a concentration camp, she (and many with her) prayed to Jesus and wasn't executed, even though most in the same concentration camp were executed.

Look up Evander Holyfield's hole in his heart apparently healed at a Binny Hinn rally. It was VERY public.

That particular blind lady healed was in the middle of nowhere, Oaxaca, Mexico I believe.

PLENTY of people are healed daily here in the US.
But seeing isn't necessarily believing.

Look up Evander Holyfield's hole in his heart apparently healed at a Binny Hinn rally. It was VERY public.

Whaa?!!

Benny Hinn is a crook and swindler of the very worst sort.

If Jesus came back today the first thing He would do is pimp slap the evil little bitch straight to hell.

Anybody who could possibly see Hinn as anything other than a fraud and a shyster of biblical proportions has got to have more than a few screws lose.

Be Well.

Pro-Lifers Should Support Universal Health Care

Ya.........What kind of stupid statement is that. Most pro lifers are conseravitive and don't believe in a socalistic government.

Look up Corrie Ten Boom.
In a concentration camp, she (and many with her) prayed to Jesus and wasn't executed, even though most in the same concentration camp were executed.

Many people survived concentration camps---even people who didn't pray to Jesus---even people who don't think Jesus was the Son of God. Your story has no value. Millions who prayed didn't get out---that was the point. God could easily have saved them with just a thought. Maybe He isn't pro-life.

Look up Evander Holyfield's hole in his heart apparently healed at a Binny Hinn rally. It was VERY public.

Mayo clinic doctors claim the hole never existed.

Most pro lifers are conseravitive and don't believe in a socalistic government.

#57 | POSTED BY SNIPER AT 2009-11-03 09:46 AM

Meaning they don't give a shit if the less fortunate have access to good preventive meds.

#38

What he posted......Matthew 25:31-46

woke,
If Max Cleland had both his arms, he'd box your ears for being such a retard.

Somoco how do you plan on delivering care to the working poor? Or do you not give a flying fuck about them? I'm talking about the people making 25K that make too much for medicaid but not enough for real insurance.

#33 | POSTED BY JACKASS AT 2009-11-02 05:51 PM | REPLY | FLAG

Last time I checked, the govt. was going to require payment from everybody, or they will be fined. My point is simply that this will lead to lower premiums and better coverage at a vastly lower rate than anything the govt. can provide. Particularly since nothing I've seen actually addresses the rising costs in a comprehensive manner.

"Meaning they don't give a shit if the less fortunate have access to good preventive meds."

What? I didn't know the "less fortunate" didn't have "access" to good preventative meds.

This is the same dumb argument as health care being a "right"...of course its a right. Buffalo Bob...you've got the right to all the health care you want.

The question is, who has the responsibility to provide it.

The Bill of Rights gives me the right to keep and bear arms...but I don't see the government handing out guns because of this right...I have a right to freedom of religion, but I don't see the government going around building churches because of this right.

Your so-called, "less fortunate" have the same access to meds you and I have. And I bet they have cell phones/cable TV/air conditioning and a couple of cars too.

"Last time I checked, the govt. was going to require payment from everybody, or they will be fined."

I must have missed that part in the Constitution.

And those that can't pay will surely be subsidized by the evil rich folks who are getting ready to get rear-ended again by the left.

Roughly 121 million Americans -- or 41 percent of the U.S. population -- are completely outside the federal income tax system. These people represent a natural constituency for big-spending politicians. Since they have no federal income tax obligation, what do they care about higher taxes or more government spending?

Our health care system is plagued by too much government intervention...not too little

cherryboy,

max cleland, john glenn and john kerry are personal friends of mine. Stood side by side with them on more than one occasion.

cleland would kick your ass WITHOUT his legs and arm sonny....

glenn has more courage in his little toe than you do in your entire little body

kerry has more honor than you or any of your chickenshit, chickenhawk heroes....

so stfu wannabee

#64 True that. We probably already have more people getting checks rather than paying taxes who vote. Patronage is in place now.

be glad you if you got a job after the last 8 years somo

"And those that can't pay will surely be subsidized by the evil rich folks who are getting ready to get rear-ended again by the left."

So...let me get this straight. When Bush was asked why the tax cuts were aimed primarily at the wealthy, he said 'well, they're the ones who pay the taxes', but now that taxes need to be paid, the rich folks are being "rear-ended"?!?

max cleland, john glenn and john kerry are personal friends of mine. Stood side by side with them on more than one occasion.

#65 | Posted by woke at 2009-11-03 10:23 AM | Reply

And here it is folks, woke's AmericanUnity moment.

I'd pull Clelands only arm off and beat those 3 old bastards with it. Then I'd throw Cleland on my front porch, and call him Matt.

Maybe I'd throw him in the water and call him Bob.

Long story short, Cleland, the one armed bandit, is a war loser and a retard, just like you. The difference being he actually wasn't a pogue.

be glad you if you got a job after the last 8 years somo

#67 | POSTED BY WOKE AT 2009-11-03 10:26 AM | REPLY | FLAG

Self employed, only way to go. Hey, I don't dispute for one minute the Bush was a failure, and not a conservative in the slightest. I don't, however, see what that has to do with universal health care, or the fact that I believe patronage is now in place - en masse.

"but now that taxes need to be paid, the rich folks are being "rear-ended"?!?"

Now that's some twisted logic!

Everyone who paid federal income taxes got a tax cut under Bush. Let me explain it to you with a little 3rd grade math. If I make $50K/yr and get a 5% tax cut, I still see less of a dollar value tax break than a millionaire who gets a 2% tax cut

But now that...as you say..."taxes need to be paid"...why only by the rich? If "health care for all" is such a great idea, shouldn't everybody have some skin in the game and feel happy to pitch in their fair share for "the common good"?

"Everyone who paid federal income taxes got a tax cut under Bush."

Yeah...the low end got fifty bucks, and the folks at the top got a 60% rate cut on their main source of income.

"If I make $50K/yr and get a 5% tax cut, I still see less of a dollar value tax break than a millionaire who gets a 2% tax cut"

But the millionaire got a 60% rate cut. You've got it backwards.

"But now that...as you say..."taxes need to be paid"...why only by the rich?"

For the same reason Bush cut taxes primarily for the rich. But I don't think it should be "only" the rich.

"If "health care for all" is such a great idea, shouldn't everybody have some skin in the game and feel happy to pitch in their fair share for "the common good"?"

Yes, and I completely disagree with Obama's promise taxes wouldn't go up for everyone. i think it was a foolish promise, and shackles Obama at a time where -- you're right -- we all need to pitch in.

If "health care for all" is such a great idea, shouldn't everybody have some skin in the game and feel happy to pitch in their fair share for "the common good"?

#71 | Posted by spabell at 2009-11-03 10:45 AM | Reply | Flag

Everybody does have some skin in the game. $10,000 to a rich man affects him less than $10 to a poor man. That $10 may represent 10% of the poor mans entire assetts, and that $10,000 may only represent .00001% of the rich mans assetts--which person has more skin in the game according to you?

The poor man should have worked harder? Maybe he had a pre-existing condition. Maybe a lot of things. The point of this thread is that so-called "pro-life" people should put up or shut up, and support life, and Universal Health Care for all.

Yes, and I completely disagree with Obama's promise taxes wouldn't go up for everyone. i think it was a foolish promise, and shackles Obama at a time where -- you're right -- we all need to pitch in.

#72 | POSTED BY DANFORTH AT 2009-11-03 11:14 AM | REPLY | FLAG

BS. Everyone knew it was a lie when he said it. It'll be like "read my lips" - on steroids.

"It'll be like "read my lips" - on steroids."

Good.

I believe spending should be slashed, but we should be paying for what we spend. We're not, and haven't for nearly a decade.

Of course, he was talking about _income taxes_. Have income taxes gone up? Will they? If not, he was being disingenuous or misleading, but not lying on the exact topic.

Just sayin'.

"But the millionaire got a 60% rate cut. You've got it backwards."...A popular media propelled myth of the Bush tax cuts.

From 2000 to 2004, the share of all individual income taxes paid by the bottom 40 percent dropped from zero percent to 4 percent, meaning that the average family in those brackets received a subsidy from the IRS. By contrast, the share paid by the top bracket of households (by income) increased from 81 percent to 85 percent.

Clearly, the tax cuts led to the rich shouldering more of the income tax burden and the poor shouldering less.

Feel free to go along, but I don't want my skin in this game. I should have the ability to opt out if I want...(of the tax increases too)

that's NEGATIVE 4 percent

"A popular media propelled myth of the Bush tax cuts."

No myth at all. When Bush took office, dividends were taxed at normal income rates, with a top rate of 38.5%. Bush changed that to a top rate of 15%. That's a 60% rate cut.

"From 2000 to 2004, the share of all individual income taxes paid by the bottom 40 percent dropped from zero percent to 4 percent..."

That's a rise, not a drop.

"...meaning that the average family in those brackets received a subsidy from the IRS. By contrast, the share paid by the top bracket of households (by income) increased from 81 percent to 85 percent."

Follow that logically:

If the wealthiest got a tax cut (which they did), and then they ended up paying a larger percentage of taxes, then they must have become much, MUCH richer. And/or revenues must have dropped, which they did.

"that's NEGATIVE 4 percent"

That's due to an expanding of the EITC, which is a very efficient form of welfare.

And income taxes are not the only federal taxes. Most taxpayers pay more in payroll taxes than they do in income taxes.

"Hope4hope: For those who firmly hold the anti-abortion stance that all life, including early conception, is sacred and must be preserved -- advocating that all Americans have access to affordable health care should be a no brainer."

It should be a no brainer that if private schools are better than public schools, then the gov't should direct the money to private schools to educate our kids.

It should be a no brainer that if living in a house is better than living on the street, the gov't should direct money to provide houses for the homeless.

It should be a no brainer that when you have a job you are no longer unemployed, then the gov't should hire everyone that isn't employed.

It should be a no brainer that if $x is the line that determines if your income is above or below the poverty line, then the gov't should pay you whatever you need to no longer be in poverty.

It should be a no brainer that the gov't should give and pay for anything you need and it is a no brainer that anyone who disagrees with the gov't denying you what you need is Anti-American.

The poor man should have worked harder? Maybe he had a pre-existing condition. Maybe a lot of things. The point of this thread is that so-called "pro-life" people should put up or shut up, and support life, and Universal Health Care for all.

Holy crap I agree with Bob? Looks like it. For one thing with Universal Health Care there would be a much better shot for the kid who wants to work hard and get ahead. He won't end up with a limp at 17 cause mom was an alkie and couldn't pay for a bone to be set right. For another thing there is no where in UHC that says the rich can't pay extra and get much much better care. If that is what they are afraid of.

Note to the author:

If you can't express your arguments against the Pro-Life side in terms of opposing what they percieve as an act of deliberate killing of a child, then NOTHING you say has any meaning.

There is a difference between opposing active murder and supporting free medicine. Related? Yes. Same thing and gotta support one if you support the other? No.

Makes as much sense to say that ALL supporters of universal health care MUST be pro-life.

#83 Note to USA242:

Where exactly did I express myself in those terms?

Meaning they don't give a shit if the less fortunate have access to good preventive meds.

#59 | Posted by jackass

Meaning that;
I don't owe them a house
I don't owe them a car
I don't owe them food
I don't owe them healthcare
I don't owe them child care
I realy don't owe them anything. They have no right to the fruits of MY labor. I do however take care of MY family. How about you?

Where do you draw the line on what WE should provide for THEM?

Sniper, citizens will be paying premiums for the public option health care insurance. It's not a hand out. The public option just removes things like the $24 million dollar salaries executives get in the private companies, without those high costs the premiums are more affordable.

Where do you draw the line on what WE should provide for THEM?

#85 | Posted by Sniper at 2009-11-03 07:06 PM | Reply | Flag

Works fine until you need help---your tune changes then doesn't it.

This is either a nation of people united, or it is a nation of barbarians where every man is for themself. I understand your position, and you understand mine. We should have two nations. You should belong to a nation where everyone stands alone--you are united with none---you stand with none. None should stand with you.

Makes as much sense to say that ALL supporters of universal health care MUST be pro-life.

#83 | Posted by USAF242 at 2009-11-03 01:39 PM | Reply | Flag:

All people who proclaim to be pro-life--should be for Universal Health care--anything else is sheer hypocrisy--a lie. To be pro choice and for Universal Health care is not a contradiction. In fact, pro-choice puts human beings above fetuses---sentient beings above fetuses that are not considered to be citizens of any nation---not considered to be members of any church, and have been in that status by every nation and society since the beginning of humanity.

There is no denying that without access to affordable health care man's chances of living getting slimmer. Every other industrialized nation has stepped in to assure their citizens have access to affordable health care. Are you saying all these other countries have a "socalistic government?"

#86 | Posted by hope4hope at 2009-11-03 07:38 PM

Man's chances get slimmer because of lifestyle more than having the Gov provide health insurance. Abusing tobacco, alcohol, fatty foods and lack of exercise will shorten any life regardless of who pays.

The Gov can't even provide vaccination in a timely matter or provide enough for the 300 plus million. God only knows how anyone can think they won't screw up healthcare, if it passes.

God only knows how anyone can think they won't screw up healthcare, if it passes.

#89 | Posted by crispee_oc at 2009-11-03 09:07 PM | Reply | Flag

Maybe copy the best of the systems every other civilized nation on the planet employs. They couldn't make it any worse than the insurance companies, who simply play God and decide who lives and who dies. I would rather someone be in that position whose paycheck wouldn't balloon if I was given a death sentence.

Long story short, Cleland, the one armed bandit, is a war loser and a retard, just like you. The difference being he actually wasn't a pogue.

#69 | Posted by 101Chairborne at 2009-11-03 10:33 AM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

Says the senile old bastard standing on side the road shitting in his hand throwing it at cars.

What's your decorations consist of Cherborne

an unused condom and a zippo

Crispee, not everyone gets ill because of their own vices. The Government will screw it up more than private insurance companies? Companies that pay out $24 million salaries but won't pay out for pre-existing conditions?

Our right to live supersedes a company's rights to be in business. It's clear our founding fathers considered this true.

Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness ... unalienable rights

#90...
You think the Gov can force every american to sign up from birth to grave, like most other Countries that have UHC? Good luck.

God only knows how anyone can think they won't screw up healthcare, if it passes.

#89 | Posted by crispee_oc at 2009-11-03 09:07 PM | Reply | Flag

Why aren't you bitching about the Government ran FLOOD INS program...

"Crispee, not everyone gets ill because of their own vices"

I agree, I was saying the lifestyle prevents people from growing old much more than who provides their coverage. We already know almost 30% of medicaid and medicares costs are caused by tobacco and alcohol abuse. Imagine what that cost would be if 300 million signed up.

Why aren't you bitching about the Government ran FLOOD INS program...

#94 | Posted by lfthndthrds at 2009-11-03 09:33 PM | R
Biggest ripoff outside of banks overdraft charges. I have had to explain Flood Insurance to many clients who were forced to have it because they lived near a river or channel. Even though it never flooded for 50 years, but the Gov requires it and the Lenders have no choice but to make sure homeowners have it.

caused by tobacco and alcohol abuse. Imagine what that cost would be if 300 million signed up.

#95 | Posted by crispee_oc at 2009-11-03 09:34 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

Not too sure of your numbers you didn't post a link. But I am sure there are some that fit that.

Thats the other thing: the Gov't packages it up and sells it at an elevated tax rate to it's citizens....

what about Obesity? find out what that costs and get back to us. I'll bet it's at least equal to the two you just listed

what about Obesity? find out what that costs and get back to us. I'll bet it's at least equal to the two you just listed

#97 | Posted by lfthndthrds at 2009-11-03 09:41 PM |
I got that figure from a roundtable discussion on PBS about a month ago. I am sure the obesity costs are probably just as staggering.

You think the Gov can force every american to sign up from birth to grave, like most other Countries that have UHC? Good luck.

#93 | Posted by crispee_oc at 2009-11-03 09:31 PM | Reply | Flag:

You think people in other countries are different from Americans? The government does fine in forcing every American to do whatever it wants--like auto insurance. People in other countries aren't fighting to have our barbaric system--I guess you haven't noticed that. People in other countries think they have great health insurance programs, and they are correct. It would be justice if you got denied coverage from your insurance company. Then you might grasp the situation thousands of others have been faced with who thought they had insurance. Your life is at the mercy of an insurance official who gets paid a bonus for finding a way out of paying.

#95 Crispee, I don't understand why the fact that some people don't take care of themselves equates to denying American citizens access to affordable health care. A right our founding fathers said we have.

#100 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2009-11-04 05:23 AM | Reply

Looks like blue are today's trolling feathers to catch tuna's like Drunky.

"95 Crispee, I don't understand why the fact that some people don't take care of themselves equates to denying American citizens access to affordable health care. A right our founding fathers said we have."

I never said they don't deserve access to affordable health coverage, my point was taking care of ourselves reduces the costs and could expand the coverage. The fact we are the fattest nation in the industrialized world means more and more people are going to have problems, which drives the costs up.

#99...

I know throwing it back on what I see or know is common for you Bob, but it doesn't refute the post or answer the question posed. Do you think as a nation we are willing to have the Gov take control of our healthcare from birth to grave, like many nations which offer UHC?

#103 | Posted by crispee_oc: I never said they don't deserve access to affordable health coverage

Then you are for the government stepping in to ensure American's have access to affordable health care.

Looks like blue are today's trolling feathers to catch tuna's....
#102 | Posted by crispee_oc

Look like Palook is be needin' some kinda Anglish lesson.

You snag faster than the carp you fish for in your bathing bucket. LOL.

"Then you are for the government stepping in to ensure American's have access to affordable health care."

I am for the Gov picking up the slack and taking care of those who need it. The problem is more and more expect the Gov to pick up the slack which removes incentives to rely on yourself. I don't expect the gov to make or limit my choices.

Look like Palook is be needin' some kinda Anglish lesson.

You snag faster than the carp you fish for in your bathing bucket. LOL.

#106 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2009-11-04 10:31 AM

Funny, I could have sworn you were the "tuna" which went after the feather. Looks like fishing can be added to your ignorance list along with boxing and pop culture. Of course whining and insolence are two areas you can be considered an expert on.

Jesus only asked for 10%.

Health Care is man made. Man made things are not "rights". Rights are created by god. Furthermore, hardly anyone would argue that no reform is needed. The argument is in the type of reform and how it's implemented. I'm not giving politicians more money so that they can try to keep their jobs by wasting it.

"insolence"
#108 | Posted by crispee_oc

Who'd you pick that blunt dart up from, Palook? Bunny Wigglesworth?

"insolence"
#108 | Posted by crispee_oc

Insolence

1.The quality or condition of being insolent.

2.An instance of insolent behavior, treatment, or speech.

Insolent

1.Presumptuous and insulting in manner or speech; arrogant.
2.Audaciously rude or disrespectful; impertinent.

Thesaurus: insolence
Top Home > Library > Literature & Language > Thesaurusalso insolency

1.The quality of being arrogant: arrogance, haughtiness, hauteur, loftiness, lordliness, overbearingness, presumption, pride, pridefulness, proudness, superciliousness, superiority. See attitude/good attitude/bad attitude/neutral attitude.
2.The state or quality of being impudent or arrogantly self-confident: assumption, audaciousness, audacity, boldness, brashness, brazenness, cheek, cheekiness, chutzpah, discourtesy, disrespect, effrontery, face, familiarity, forwardness, gall1, impertinence, impudence, impudency, incivility, nerve, nerviness, overconfidence, pertness, presumptuousness, pushiness, rudeness, sassiness, sauciness. Informal brass, crust, sauce, uppishness, uppityness. See attitude/good attitude/bad attitude/neutral attitude, courtesy/discourtesy.

Think maybe that describes you to a tee Drunky?

Who'd you pick that blunt dart up from, Palook? Bunny Wigglesworth?

#110 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2009-11-04 11:08 AM | Re

No surprise you were clueless to 'My Cousin Vinny' and used the 'Gay Blade' as proof or a defense to your lack of knowledge in pop culture. Why not 'Grumpy Old Men'?

Ooooh, wanna trade words? I'm not quite as runnning-off-at-the-mouth as you are, Palook, so here's a succinct one that pretty much sums up your DR activities:

moron (mrn, mr-) n.
1. A stupid person; a dolt.

"Why not 'Grumpy Old Men'?"

Gee, Palook, why not? You seem up to speed on it. Though I'd have expected you to be quoting Sponge Bob Square Pants. I guess life's just full of sooprises.

No matter how much to try to bob -- oops! -- and weave -- ouch! -- you still sound like Bunny Wigglesworth. And you always sound like a moron.

Rights are created by god.

#109 | Posted by Jfernandez at 2009-11-04 11:04 AM | Reply | Flag

God gives and creates absolutely no rights--zero--none. All rights come from the government. These rights are expressed in the Constitution of the United States.

Show where God gives any rights.

"No surprise you were clueless to 'My Cousin Vinny'"

Not nearly as clueless as Crispee Palook, who doesn't realize that his entire posting experience is summed up with Pesci's priceless line:

"Everything that guy just said is bullshit...thank you."

My Cousin Vinnie is one of the more under-rated movies out there.

Marissa Tomei, in addition to being smoking hot in the movie, was absolutely classic.

"Yeah, we's famous for our mud."

Tomei: "You're famous for your mud??? How's your Chinese food?"

#116 | Posted by JeffJ at 2009-11-04 11:46 AM |

Doc, (or Charlie Tuna) didn't know this was a line from 'My Cousing Vinny' yesterday and as usual tries to mask his ignorance by explaining Jack wasn't real or some BS...He is still being a "puling little whiner" because I punked him on using a google search to find out who Bert Sugar was and he foolishly called him "Sweet as Sugar" because the first link that came up had those words in the body of the page. Problem was, Bert Sugar referred to the Sweet as Sugar in repsects to Sugar Ray Robinson. Now that his fragile ego was cracked every post I make is like trolling with a feathered lure for him to bite.

Did you buy your computer from the guy who sold Jack the beans?????
Posted by crispee_oc at 2009-11-03 12:53 PM | Reply

Crispee, I gonna try and break this to you the nicest way I can, okay?

"Jack" is a fictional character. (There are real people named "Jack," but he isn't one of them.)

The magic beans? They don't exist. Never did.

Would you like me to get you a handkerchief?
#254 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2009-11-03 01:04 PM

#107 | Posted by crispee_oc: I am for the Gov picking up the slack and taking care of those who need it. The problem is more and more expect the Gov to pick up the slack which removes incentives to rely on yourself. I don't expect the gov to make or limit my choices.

A public option is not a hand out. Americans will pay premiums just like they do now to private insurance companies. As far as choice, a public option will add to your choices since right now you have no public option to choose unless you are dirt poor or elderly.

If universal health care paid for abortion, then our taxes would be paying for it, hence Lisa herself would be helping to pay for it, which makes her complicit in the sin, which means Lisa would go to Hell. So Lisa has to be against comprehensive universal healthcare because her very soul is at stake. Is that about right?

"efficient single payer plan"

I saw one of those... Bigfoot and the Yeti were the administrators :p

#109 | Posted by Jfernandez: Health Care is man made. Man made things are not "rights".

Life is not man made. Without health care you have no life.

The argument is in the type of reform and how it's implemented. I'm not giving politicians more money so that they can try to keep their jobs by wasting it.

Then who should implement this needed reform?

"As far as choice, a public option will add to your choices since right now you have no public option to choose unless you are dirt poor or elderly."

I have plenty of options Hope. I can find a job which covers my HC, I can shop for policies with higher or lower decutibles, depending on the coverage that is right for me. Not saying others are that fortunate, but I don't think the Gov should tell me what or if I need coverage or tax me if I decide otherwise. Like I said, I am all for the Gov. taking up the slack if one chooses to accept their handout.

decutibles,

deductibles...

Without food, shelter, water, propagation and warmth there is also no life - should we start government programs in the name of competition for all of these?

Perhaps the progressives would be truly happy if we all worked on government farms where we were paid with rations of food, given shelter and procreation for the purpose enhancing the labor force would be the norm.

#124 | Posted by SHEEPLESHEPERD: Without food, shelter, water, propagation and warmth there is also no life - should we start government programs in the name of competition for all of these?

If private companies were building businesses models around these life necessities that made the items extremely hard to afford, than yes government should step in and do something about that.

Some muttered meanderings from the human beanbag that is Crispee Palooka:

"Doc....didn't know this was a line from 'My Cousing Vinny' yesterday"

What are you, Palook, a walking rival to the Internet Movie Database? You know all the lines to all the movies ever made and someone's deeply out of it because they don't know what movie you're referring to in your incoherent musings? Get a fucking clue, Palook.

"and as usual tries to mask his ignorance by explaining Jack wasn't real or some BS..."

I'm going to have to tell you again, aren't I? (This is like having to inform a 7-year-old that the Tooth Fairy won't be coming back.) "Jack and the Beanstalk" is a fictional story. There never was a guy named "Jack" who traded whatever the hell he traded for a bag of magic beans.

And here's the tragic news (for you): There's no such thing as magic beans.

"I punked him on using a google search to find out who Bert Sugar was and he foolishly called him "Sweet as Sugar" because the first link that came up had those words in the body of the page."

And you're back on your Bert Sugar jag? Again? Christ, you sure are one dumb, delusional fool. You "punked" nobody about anything. (Never have, never will.) I didn't do a Google search and I didn't lift the "Sweet as" rif. And the fact of the matter is, Palook, your saying so not only doesn't make it so; it makes it highly improbable.

Seriously, see if you can get any help. Whoever's in charge of your care and feeding needs to know that you are suffering from a weird kind of Blogger's Tourette's Syndrome, most likely coupled with ADHD, ADD, and (almost certainly) OCD.

#122 | Posted by crispee_oc: Not saying others are that fortunate

You do sound very fortunate that you are able to navigate this horribly broken health care system. I hope that continues for you. But health reform is not a hand out. Citizens will pay just as they do now to private companies. But then everyone will be able to experience your good fortune.

Palook -

Here's what you can do. Mosey on down to your local pharmacy -- the pusher you've been frequenting has definitely been loading you down with some very bad shit -- try not to scare any small mamalians you encounter en route, and tell the pharmacist:

"My name be Crispee Palooka. I am sorely in need of help because I'm...I'm...well, let's put it this way: There is nothing wrong with me that probably can't be helped with a deisel drum filled with equal parts Haldol, Anafranil, Buspar, Cylert, Orap, Effexor Tranxene, Dexedrine, Mellaril, Lithobid, Valium, Ritalin, Navane, Luvox, Xanax, Prolixin, Norpramin, Risperdal, Paxil, Stelazine, Prozac, Thorazine, Tofranil, Wellbutrin, and Zoloft topped off with a large stein of Klonipin, Clonidin, Catapres, Inderolm
Tegretol, Tenex, Isoptin, and...and...oh, yeah, Procardia XL for that twitch."

#128...

What was that Charlie Tuna? Now you start biting lures that haven't been cast? Now we know the physical handicap of being small has gone to the literal sense of being a small man. All because you got a dose of your own medicine?

Did senility play a part in your recent pathetic rants of an obsolete, drunk cretin who wears depends? Maybe that scent du jour is your soiled adult diaper.

"Obsession" has become more than just Crispee Palooka's scent du jour.
#420 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2009-11-04 01:14 PM

My name be Crispee Palooka. I am sorely in need of help because I'm...I'm...well, let's put it this way: There is nothing wrong with me that probably can't be helped with a deisel drum filled with equal parts Haldol, Anafranil, Buspar, Cylert, Orap, Effexor Tranxene, Dexedrine, Mellaril, Lithobid, Valium, Ritalin, Navane, Luvox, Xanax, Prolixin, Norpramin, Risperdal, Paxil, Stelazine, Prozac, Thorazine, Tofranil, Wellbutrin, and Zoloft topped off with a large stein of Klonipin, Clonidin, Catapres, Inderolm
Tegretol, Tenex, Isoptin, and...and...oh, yeah, Procardia XL for that twitch." #128 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2009-11-04 01:34 PM

Sorry Charlie Tuna, all I take is Atenolol for high blood pressure.

Ask any mermaid you happen to see... Who's the biggest chicken amongst the drudgees, Doc the pathetic Drunky...

You do sound very fortunate that you are able to navigate this horribly broken health care system. I hope that continues for you. But health reform is not a hand out. Citizens will pay just as they do now to private companies. But then everyone will be able to experience your good fortune.

#127 | Posted by hope4hope at 2009-11-04 01:30 PM

Hope,

Your post indicates I was "given" some sort of good forune. I would like to think I worked for whatever fortunes that have been bestowed on me. I don't expect anyone to give me anything that wasn't earned nor do I depend on anyone to give me something I can't or should be able to get myself. This way if and when I fail, there is only one person to blame, me.

"all I take is Atenolol"
Obviously part of your problem.
"Ask any mermaid you happen to see..."
I don't see mermaids, Crispee.
Nor do I believe in magic beans.
Again, your problem, Palook, not mine.
Maybe health care reform holds out some hope for you.

#132...

So far the only problem is some feeble, little drunken man whining about getting punked a few days ago and his fragile ego has been cracked. Laughbale bringing HC Reform seeing as the Gov is taking care of yours. Hypocrisy? Or just the rants of a bitter dwarf who is slowly becoming obsolete.

Wow, you really are a mental case, aren't you, Palook? I'm almost sorry I drove you over the edge. But I'll console myself with the knowledge that (a) you were already teetering over the edge and (b) it provided a few laughs. But now I'm starting to feel like I'm kicking a mangey little pup in search of a teat for nourishment. Keep sucking, Palook, you never know when something might turn up.

We should have two nations. You should belong to a nation where everyone stands alone--you are united with none---you stand with none. None should stand with you.

#87 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob

We do buf.

The USA which was a free nation - for me.

Russia which has socialism - for you.

When are you going to move to your utopia?

Wow, you really are a mental case, aren't you, Palook? I'm almost sorry I drove you over the edge. But I'll console myself with the knowledge that (a) you were already teetering over the edge and (b) it provided a few laughs. But now I'm starting to feel like I'm kicking a mangey little pup in search of a teat for nourishment. Keep sucking, Palook, you never know when something might turn up.

#134 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2009-11-04 02:43 PM | Reply

Man you need to double up on that Alzheimers medication or loosen those depends. You are the tuna biting the lures that haven't even been cast. I am starting to feel guilty for picking on someone who needs a booster seat to drive. I couldn't give a rats ass what your limited brains cells make you write. Hell, now you are resorting to using my "dog" metaphors. Must suck getting punked to a point you don't even remember what was written. You appear as angry as an old man trying to send back soup in a Deli.

"View: Pro-Lifers Should Support Universal Health"

Yeah, especially since it has a provision to pay for abortions.

a better word for Pro-life is Anti-choice. A lot of pro-lifers believe in the death penalty therefore they are NOT pro life.

"all I take is Atenolol for high blood pressure.
#130 | Posted by crispee_oc"

That would explain a lot, Palook. Atenolol's side effects may include, but are not limited to, the following list of what ails you: nervousness, indigestion, constipation, dry mouth, hair loss, anxiety, problems with sexual function -- e.g., decreased sex drive, impotence, and difficulty achieving orgasm -- runny/blocked nose,
depression and confusion, nightmares, hallucinations, and -- to top it all off -- some truly nasty skin problems.

So I must take it you wander the streets of whatever slum you inhabit, flexing your fingers, burping, bloated, searching for a toupee substitute, trying to imagine what it would be like to get laid, blowing snot out your nose with every other breath, muttering incoherencies, terrified of the onset of sleep, talking to fire hydrants, exchanging bon mots with small dogs and uncomprehending children, shaking a leper's bell and scratching at yourself while whispering "Only dandruff, only dandruff."

Given that drug problem you've shared with us today, I'll try and go easier on you in future because, clearly, you are more to be pitied than censured.

Crispee,

No, I didn't imply you were given anything. But you are lucky that the system is working for you because sometimes - no matter how hard you try to make things different - America's broken health system will not deliver the treatment you need to survive.

#139 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2009-11-04 05:27 PM

Drunky,
It appears you are in some sort of psychotic rage stemming from being punked. Those childish rants only enlighten the fact you are a lonely, useless pathetic old man who's sanity must be near the end. I am glad you are wasting what little time in some pathetic attempt to make me the reason for all your inevitable shortcomings before being committed or rendered incapacitated. It is obvious your physical and now mental challenges have intertwined and you have become certifiable. But I appreciate the laughs and feel good knowing I helped push you over the edge. By all means continue on until what's left of your brain goes out. I have nothing but time. Sadly, you don't. I can only guess nature is paying you back for being a insolent, angry dwarf with a chip on your shoulder the size of Gibraltar.

"psychotic rage...childish rants"

Yes, Palook, by all means: add those exhibited behaviors to that bill of side-effect particulars set forth in #139. Perhaps your care givers could come up with an alternative to that stuff you're taking.

"I have nothing but time."

Well, at least that's something you've got, Palook. I imagine life's like that, when you're sitting around the bus station in Sheboygan, fingering a stolen laptop, afraid your meds are running out -- muttering, "can manage it on my own" -- and debating the age-old question of whether to move your panhandling activities to Phoenix or Miami for the winter.

(Really, totally seriously: Thanks for the yuks, punk.)

We should have two nations. You should belong to a nation where everyone stands alone--you are united with none---you stand with none. None should stand with you.

#87 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob

We do buf.

The USA which was a free nation - for me.

Why would you want to stay in a nation you consider is not a free nation---you used the past tense--WAS a free nation.

Russia which has socialism - for you.

Russia has communism. The health care planned that is being proposed is nowhere near being socialist. The puppet heads have brainwashed you, and your ignorance is profound.

When are you going to move to your utopia?

There is no such thing as utopia--no perfect country---but I am in the country that suits me best. You seem to be the one bitching that it isn't free anymore, and you seem to be the one that would be happier someplace else. I suggest a split of this country along the lines of the civil war states that wanted to exit and were never really part of America anyway. They have fought American concepts of freedom since 1776. They seem to think like you. I would think you would find the freedom you seek in such a country.

#135 | Posted by Sniper at 2009-11-04 02:54 PM | Reply | Flag