In other news, it is estimated that only about 16% of UAW membership understands that the 'right-to-work' states would love to pull existing Ford factories out of Michigan and Kentucky and bring them to the deep south, just like every other car company is doing.

This vote is the vote that will ultimately kill the UAW. Good Riddance.

It seems to me that the UAW rank and file have overwhelmingly rejected the concept of PATTERN BARGAINING. From now on, every company will have it's own contract instead of a contract patterned according to other industry participants. Who would have figured that is was the rank and file itself that destroyed pattern bargaining?

Who would have figured that is was the rank and file itself that destroyed pattern bargaining?

#2 | Posted by member2586

I care about each human being, but at some point you have to sit back and say, 'oh, well, they had an opportunity to save their jobs, and they chose not to'.

The economic reality is running contrary to these yokels ideals on more than this one issue.

Do they not understand that human labor in manufacturing is already becoming obselete? The auto manufacturers of the future will be computer programmers, robotics technicians and 3D design engineers.

The UAW's time is long past.

Buh Bye

Cut off your nose to spite your face?

No, place Ford in an untenable position so they bleed red ink and then get bailed out by the fed-- no lose situation for these folks.

Lose the Unions Ford!!! You can't compete with Honda, Toyota or Hyundai!!!!!

Lose the Unions Ford!!! You can't compete with Honda, Toyota or Hyundai!!!!!

Posted by Unclesam at 2009-10-31 07:15 PM | Reply

It's a race to the bottom to the shitter ehhhhhhh UncleSam. The Unions aren't the problem. It's the greedy corporate big wigs who are the problem. I am sorry right wingers such as Yourself don't understand this.

Larry

Hell, I'll take a non-union job at Ford...

Fords are one of the most reliable "American" cars if there is such a thing. I have toured the Union Factories in Canada and Michigan. It is hard for me to still see that jobs are still branched out and designated. A friend tried to tighten a bolt and was quickly told that he is not allowed to do that. His job is to only oversee the operation. He is putting a fellow member out of work by trying to help???? WTF????

No wonder Honda constantly lets their team rotate positions. Unions!!!!

I see it everyday! Dinosaurs at work in a quantum world!

"He is putting a fellow member out of work by trying to help?"

No, he may not be properly trained to do it to spec. Too tight? Too loose? Who knows? And what if, while "tightening the bolt" he misses something much more important?

There are folks hired to assess what each worker should be doing. If he was supposed to be overseeing, and he wasn't, then he wasn't doing his job. I realize it looks silly up close, but from a distance, everyone has his part to play. Sure, you could throw that block, but you're the quarterback, dammit.

Uncle scam I work here at KTP and you're a Damn liar!!! No body comes running up to stop anyone from doing any such thing. Most of you people wishing for the UAW's demise still wouldn't buy American cars. Instead you'll drive a fucking Kia with an american flag ribbon. Most people have a 1970's view of unions. Are they perfect, hell no! Let me ask you folks? Would you work for half your current wage? I think not!!!!!

People try to portray union workers as lazy and such. Bunch of damn lies. I am a union member and we bust our asses. For some reason there is a segment in our population that thinks our wages should be on the same scale as the Chinese. Maybe because they aren't fortunate enough to have a job with a living wage?

"No, place Ford in an untenable position so they bleed red ink and then get bailed out by the fed-- no lose situation for these folks.

#6 | Posted by matsop at 2009-10-31 06:52 PM"

Ford made money last quarter and are expected to this quarter as well.

Fire them. In this economy, shouldn't be too hard to find willing replacements. They might even be grateful.

Message to Ford: Move to a right to work state, leave the UAW in the dust. You will be happier and have better workers at a REASONABLE price.

I totally support unions but I don't totally support idiotic attempts to pull wages out of a bankrupt industry. Be thankful you have a job and let's figure out how to make it permanent. This is just stupid. I doubt it was though up by someone who works for a living.

Does this mean Ford's labor costa will remain high and I shouls sell my Ford stock or is thia a push to busting the UAW in which case it will lower labor costs and I should hold onto my Ford stock that I bought for $1.50.

Former Worker (turned capatilist) Thom

Yeah Yeah Race to the bottom Yeah Yeah race to the bottom race to the bottom. Let's see how low we can go. How low can we go. Who will give Me 25 dollars an hour do we have a bid for 24 dollars an hour yeah number 687 bids 24 dollars an hour can we go 23 Yeah number 678 bids 23 dollars an hour do I hear a 22 dollar an hour bid?? Yeah the one in the back bids 22 dolars an hour. Do we have a bid for 21?? I hear a bid for 15 dollars an hour!!! anyone else bidding?? The guy in from says 12 dollars an hour. Anyone else?? Sold to the guy up in front for 12 dollars an hour.

Danni-Ford employees have already given concessions this year that have enabled it to turn a profit.

Did the mention of 2011 kick up any interest? The Administration saved GM from the workers for the time being, have they also told these BOZOs' something behind those closed doors? Why TRY to lose everything? Just a question!!

"The Administration saved GM from the workers"

What a pile of shit. The administration saved GM from the management. Give GM the pay scale of the non-union Toyota workers, and they're still losing money. Why? Because the management decided, year after year, to take raises & bonuses rather than fund the health & retirement programs, figuring they'd just "lay off" the costs onto future cars. Well, guess what, bunky, the future is today, and the bill you thought you'd never have to pay has come due.

Management is responsible for 50% of the signatures on the labor contract, and 100% of all the other decisions, which makes math-and-reality-challenged retards surmise it's all the workers' fault.

OMG, we're in the semi-annual time warp, where people's answers will show up long before, or long after, the question.

I guess they will have their hand out too.

GM and Chrysler are zombie companies. I've been wondering how long it would be before unions put Ford out of business too. I hope Ford finds a way to shuck the dead weight of union costs.

Management is responsible for 50% of the signatures on the labor contract, and 100% of all the other decisions, which makes math-and-reality-challenged retards surmise it's all the workers' fault.
#22 | POSTED BY DANFORTH

Bad management and unions. That's a lethal combination.

People try to portray union workers as lazy and such. Bunch of damn lies. I am a union member and we bust our asses.

There is an element of truth to that portrayal. Unions are well known for featherbedding, make-work rules and extortion. Hard work is irrelevant when an employer can't pay its bills because it's hamstrung by high labor costs. I'ts not hard to make a case that unionized companies have a higher mortality rate than non-unionized companies.

Ford made money last quarter and are expected to this quarter as well.
#14 | POSTED BY PROZACBOI

That's not the full picture. I believe they have a heavy debt load that they need to pare down.

which included a "no-strike" provision on wages and benefits and other cuts.

LOL, what's the sense in the bargaining if you want them to lose their fairness chip of good faith.

which included a "no-strike" provision on wages and benefits and other cuts.

Wages cut in half, no benefits, and 60 hour work weeks and there is no recourse. Yep, that is management at its fair best.

unionized companies have a higher mortality rate than non-unionized companies.

It couldn't be because they work harder!

There is an element of truth to that portrayal.

Aw bullshit. You're just a management corporate knee pad suck up who is sour at the wages because they do more work then you.

Go put a bandaid on that paper cut.

Ray Kia pays its auto plant workers about 50k. That is close to what a union worker gets. High labor costs isn't the real reason why these companies are failing. I know you think Auto plant workers deserve 8.00 an hour but they won't get quality workers for low wages.

Money

Management and unions have to compete in the marketplace like everybody else. It's not a question of what you think you deserve. It's a question of what you can get. That's the facts kid. Deny it all you want.

Oops. Meant to direct #33 to Jackass.

As for Moneywar, this is nothing but childish name calling.
Aw bullshit. You're just a management corporate knee pad suck up who is sour at the wages because they do more work then you.

When the unions die expect compensation for non union workers to fall. Ray likes the idea of workers being underpaid. Of course Ray wasn't willing to be underpaid and that is why he sat unemployed for 2 years. I'll bet he used his children to support him while he waited. Sadly most of us don't have that option.

That's right! Ford is growing market share and didn't take a government bailout! We aren't finished putting them out of business! No agreement.

UAW

Jackass, will you stop being a jerkoff. I post from the point of view of an objective economist. You HAVE to compete in the marketplace. There is no way around it.

I work in manufacturing which you know largely left this country I couldn't find any jobs at any rate for two years. My current wages are below what I used to make. And that was after my current employer gave me $10,000 over what I asked.

So stop making up shit.

Does this mean Ford's labor costa will remain high and I shouls sell my Ford stock or is thia a push to busting the UAW in which case it will lower labor costs and I should hold onto my Ford stock that I bought for $1.50.

Former Worker (turned capatilist) Thom

#18 | Posted by fwthom

FW,

I was considering selling my stock that I bought at about the same price on Monday and letting the union victimize Ford. The price will fall, the company will crater, and the government will come riding in with cash to save the union. Then, just like GM, the price will shoot up. Get back in and make money again! It is good to have a government that works for me.

Let me know your thoughts.

Ray you don't seem to even care that one day our living standards will match that of Mexico. Competing with the 3rd world for employment is not in the best interest of this country. I figure you don't care because you are old and know your working days are almost over anyways. Long after you are gone your grandkids will be living in a shack killing themselves for 80 bucks a week if they are lucky.

"Ray you don't seem to even care that one day our living standards will match that of Mexico. Competing with the 3rd world for employment is not in the best interest of this country"

Good for you JA.

This is EXACTLY where Obama and his Obots want to take us. Hit the nail right on the head.

BS Chap. It's the corporate rulers and the rich repubs that want us working for pennies. As workers we should be happy with the scraps they give us.

This is EXACTLY where Obama and his Obots want to take us. Hit the nail right on the head.

#40 | Posted by The_Chapel

Where were you guys when the three most 'corporate liberal' presidents we have ever had were republicans? Bush2, Raygun and Nixon. These are your corporate liberal presidents.

As far as standard of living goes, what makes people think that the auto industry is a source of the high standard of living forever?

I started out in my professional life doing drafting (by hand not cad). Nowadays, you couldn't even begin to make a living doing manual drafting. That has only been 30 years ago. I didn't cry because my profession is gone, I simply went back to school and changed my career. This is what the auto-workers will do or they will starve.

The biggest problem here is that Americans think they are guaranteed a living and no guarantee exists.

Ray you don't seem to even care that one day our living standards will match that of Mexico.
#39 | POSTED BY JACKASS

Oh really? I've been explaining for years how government destroys wealth and jobs. Socialists like you are the problem, not the cure. I have no control over what others do. I do what I need to do to survive.

Competing with the 3rd world for employment is not in the best interest of this country.

There is no escape. Take your beef to consumers. Try to convince them to buy higher priced American goods and see how far you get.

I figure you don't care because you are old and know your working days are almost over anyways. Long after you are gone your grandkids will be living in a shack killing themselves for 80 bucks a week if they are lucky.

What a freakin imagination! I have no idea if or when I'll be able to retire. Whatever the future of this country, I taught my kids survival skills. They'll do well.

"That's not the full picture. I believe they have a heavy debt load that they need to pare down.

#27 | Posted by Ray at 2009-11-01 06:22 AM"

Yes they do, but as I also posted the union has already given consessions this year that have helped Ford turn a profit while the higher ups still get millions in bonuses from a company that is heavily in debt.

Hourly has no say in how the company is run. Design,engineering,marketing, everything but labor is non-union yet is is the union that is supposed to shoulder the entire burden even though they are the ones that are actually doing the job they being paid for. When is the last time you heard of a million cars being recalled because of someone on the line at the big three not doing their job?

I worked for 20 years at GM and yes I saw abuses and didn't like everything that went on but those here that think the union is responsible for all the problems of the big three are just ignorant.

The UAW may have aged into a dinosaur given the economic changes over the last twenty years. Maybe not today. Maybe not this year or next year. But the big Unions a la the UAW are on the path to extinction

Economic evolution takes no prisoners. The global economy is here to stay. In many ways this is neither a good or a bad development. Simply an inevitable one given the fact that it is so much cheaper to manufacture in States or Countries where costs are so much less.

There is no escape. Take your beef to consumers. Try to convince them to buy higher priced American goods and see how far you get.

POSTED BY RAY AT 2009-11-01

Take away the choice by utilizing tariffs so that cheap Chinese goods are more expensive than American made goods.

I taught my kids survival skills. They'll do well.

#43 | POSTED BY RAY AT 2009-11-01 08:29 AM |

Did you teach them how to live without a living wage because most all of the decent wages went overseas?

"Take away the choice by utilizing tariffs so that cheap Chinese goods are more expensive than American made goods."

Hell, it worked for the founding fathers.

Ray since you are wrong 100% of the time can I assume you taught your children the wrong survival skills?

Did you teach them how to live without a living wage because most all of the decent wages went overseas?
#47 | POSTED BY JACKASS

You're a joke! I deal with the world as it is, not as I want it to be. Wages like consumer prices are determined by valuations between buyer and seller. You know. The old law of supply and demand. You have to live with it whether you like it or not.

The idea of "living wage" is one of those crackpot ideas unions promote to keep workers from under-biding union jobs. There was a thread recently that stated, I think, unemployment among the young is over 30%. They can't get any wages thanks to busybodies like you.

Ray since you are wrong 100% of the time can I assume you taught your children the wrong survival skills?
#49 | POSTED BY JACKASS

Worthy of a Funny Flag.

Ray I'll take you serious when the Dow hits 1400.

It's coming, Jackass. And I don't rule out a total collapse in the next year or two.

Do I really care if you take me seriously? NO!

Then why are you still arguing? (#53)

Why do I argue? It's an addiction.

Ray loves to be wrong. That is his addiction.

Ah, honesty, Ray. : ) (My presence on DR indicates my addiction. And to be fair to Ray, I often argue when I have no hope of gaining any ground. I've been trying to train myself to walk away more often.)

C'mon Jackass. Can't you come up with something better? Tell me about the recovery so shameless promoted by your man Obama? Is it real?

Ray it is a jobless recovery once again. Companies won't hire until they have such a need they can't do without the labor. When that happens I don't know. It won't happen as long as some people keep believing tax cuts is the answer.

Prag - there are a couple who follow me around that I try to ignore. But they do follow me around and because they are stupid, the urge to remind them sometimes of their flaws in the most contemptuous way becomes too great of an urge to resist.

It's all a game.

It is a game, though I've actually learned some stuff here, too.

Do you really think other posters follow you around? I thought that briefly, then I realized that it was more about tweaking me when I opened the door (Hi, Wis) and that it was probably mostly gamesmanship on their part anyway. So I mostly don't let it bother me now. Ignore or play back. No big.

I work in manufacturing

No you don't, you supposedly work in engineering. You don't know what it means to be a grunt on the floor so stop pretending you work in manufacturing. You are SUPPORT for manufacturing.

which included a "no-strike" provision on wages and benefits and other cuts.

Like I said, there is nothing I see as bargaining with good faith here.

No rational person in their right mind would accept this and so that shows alot about some of the posters here.

Jackass

I knew you would fall for the bullshit propaganda. There is no such thing as a recovery when unemployment is increasing. Companies won't hire because government has made rehiring too risky and expensive. The more government meddles in the economy, the worse they are going to make this depression.

Upcoming events: the fall of the dollar, stocks and bonds. The next stage of this depression will be more devastating. But since I am 100% wrong, it won't happen. There will be a full recovery. Right?

No you don't, you supposedly work in engineering. You don't know what it means to be a grunt on the floor so stop pretending you work in manufacturing. You are SUPPORT for manufacturing.
#62 | POSTED BY MONEYWAR

Now that you exposed me, I'll confess. I play in front of a computer screen all day.

Do you really think other posters follow you around?

Nullifidian had been obsessed with me for years. He's apparently developed an affection for Goatman too.

"Do you really think other posters follow you around? "

Ray's a little paranoid. Well, actually, he's a whole lotta paranoid.

I heard on the radio a solution I liked. No American company can pay their mgmt more than 40X the salary of the average worker. If your workers make 50K on average mgmt can only get 2 million. Any company that moves overseas to avoid this law is banned from doing business here.

Interesting how CEOs who control the corporations always have iron clad contracts that cover their every perk and compensation, but the rank and file must always be forced to sacrifice.

JA....I like that rule that says CEOs can only be paid 40x what average workers earn to be permitted to sell in the USA. Sounds very fair and conducive to improving our economy instead of cannibalizing it. The CEOs are managers who unlike entrepreneurs risk nothing.

i'm 50/50 on this one. First the top CFO/CEO's are making WAY more money than they should for the amount of work they do. Second the UAW is slitting its own throat. Its a symbiotic relationship. No Ford/GM/Chrysler = No shops for UAW members. You REALLY think Toyota, Hundai, or Mitsubishi is gunna let the UAW in their workplace after seeing what the big 3 american car makers have become. not likely. and I think hell froze cause I actually agree with JACKASS on his #68 post.

Who cares what the CFO/CEO's are making? The UAW are acting like an extortionist.

Fire them all. You don't think there are thousands of unemployed workers that will line up for those jobs?

It's not like they need workers that can't learn there duties after a 2 hour training secession.

"The UAW are acting like an extortionist."

Huh? Management's offer is the workers sign a no-strike pledge, regardless if they get wages slashed or benefits slashed.

You've incorrectly identified the extortionists.

So where are these over paid under educated lazy thugs going to work when Ford is gone. Government motors?

Take away the choice by utilizing tariffs so that cheap Chinese goods are more expensive than American made goods.

#46 | Posted by jackass

If they can't sell their goods to us, then how are they going to buy our debt so we can continue to expand our government bureaucracy.

The UAW wants to take over Ford like they have the others.

Well, my shoes, they come from Singapore,
My flashlight's from Taiwan,
My tablecloth's from Malaysia,
My belt buckle's from the Amazon.
You know, this shirt I wear comes from the Philippines
And the car I drive is a Chevrolet,
It was put together down in Argentina
By a guy makin' thirty cents a day.

Well, it's sundown on the union
And what's made in the U.S.A.
Sure was a good idea
'Til greed got in the way.

Bob Dylan

Ford makes a billion in profits--yet can't share with the people who made it possible.

Bob - They get paid. The people that made it possible was the SHARE HOLDERS. (which in most cases include the employees in 401K and other stock plans)

With out the capital from the market there would never had been a Ford for these guys to work in.

These line guys come to work and get paid. NO RISK. The people who buy stocks and bonds in Ford take risk ..there is no garauntee that they will see a dime of thier money (look at GM and Chrysler stock and bond holders)

Without the capital they put in there would not be an Assembly line for the workers to work at.

So..they should pay the stock and bond holders..and if the employees want to benefit from it they should risk some of their pay like the others.

Henry Ford was far sighted enough to pay his employees far more than anyone else back in his day.

Keep pounding manufacturing jobs wages and pretty soon there won't BE a middle class to buy anything from anyone else.

next move

Ford moves to China along with GM and our bailout money.