Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs
Saturday, October 24, 2009

Senator John McCain has introducing a bill that would prohibit the FCC from governing communications and allowing net neutrality. Under his bill the FCC "shall not propose, promulgate, or issue any regulations regarding the Internet or IP-enabled services."

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According to the text of the McCain bill, the FCC "shall not propose, promulgate, or issue any regulations regarding the Internet or IP-enabled services." Isn't that what the FCC does? Isn't that sort of like introducing a bill to prohibit the Treasury from printing money, or a bill to prohibit the IRS from collecting taxes?

Do you libbies really want the government to be able to control what takes place on the internet?

What a bunch of dumbasses. Do you really believe we're going to have libtards running Congress and the White House FOREVER?

woke and his ilk dont give a fuck about freedoms if the govt can take it over and help to secure thier power over our lives
remember RIR...we are just too fuckin stupid to know whats best for us.

Internet is going to end up like cable television. That's what they want. Controlled information.

Is McCain's bill part of his rape neutrality bill?
I tend to agree with McCain, don't need the government regulating porn or gambling online.

And are you righties insinuating Republicans would interfere with the net if in power? I mean, they read the emails already, what else would they do?

Uh, I prefer our govt OF, BY AND FOR THE PEOPLE to make those decisions via our representatives who can be held accountable, rather than giant global media conglomerates that cannot....

make sense to you?

Oh that's great. Isn't McCain the guy who said he didn't know how to use email. So now he is going to write legislation regarding the internet.

Thank God, well actually, the voters, that this little fascist fuck and the retarded half-baked Alaskan aren't in the White House.

Oh that's great. Isn't McCain the guy who said he didn't know how to use email. So now he is going to write legislation regarding the internet.

#7 | Posted by schmanch at 2009-10-23 11:15 AM

You gotta admit his daughter has nice titties!

McCain's legislation seeks to limit the power of the federal government; that in itself is almost always a good thing.

Is it jeff j?

You prefer allowing giant global corporations to continue to dictate America's future?

How has that worked out for us?

72% of global corps pay no taxes due to loopholes and off shore offices, jettison American jobs to 3rd world countries, and stash their windfall profits in the cayman islands and switzerland.....

Why do you people HATE America's government?

NO ONE SHOULD CONTROL THE INTERNET.

its our only free medium.

corps shouldn't be allowed to read emails.
they say its on "their servers" thats why its legal

thats like saying if they owned the post box, then they would be allowed to read the snail mail you recieve.

crap.

fine. block websites that are inappropriate for work, and scan email for virus and spam.

again not the corps
not the gov
no one should have any control on the only free medium we have.

hackers will still defeat any attempt they make at ttrying to.

again not the corps
not the gov
no one should have any control on the only free medium we have.

hackers will still defeat any attempt they make at ttrying to.

#12 | POSTED BY KLIFFERD AT 2009-10-23 12:33 PM

So, who's gonna stop the corps if not our govt of,by,for the people?

You sound like bush on taxing the rich....oh, well they'll just find a loophole so we shouldn't tax them....

Oh, well someone might circumvent the restrictions, so why bother?

Throw the baby out with the bathwater, eh?

Very strange--the idea of net neutrality is to PREVENT unfair access. No, not fairness doctrine, kneejerk rightwingers--access. If my ISP can decide what I can get to, that's fucked up. If, say, Amazon can pay extra to an ISP to slow or prevent access to Powells, that's fucked up. The point of the Internet should be to democratize access. I'm not sure how anyone makes the leap to government control here. Hell, we've freed up enough FCC controls over the last 15 or so years, ceding market ownership to conglomerates and allowing advertisers to manipulate our children--can we not hold on to SOMETHING?

But you know, even when this was presented without WOKE (whom so many of you seem to detest) and without McCain several weeks back, the libertarian/neocon/small-
government attackers screamed and shouted. Take a look at what net neutrality is meant to do and who is behind it, instead of kneejerking your way toward anti-big-government mantras, 'kay?

And for fuck's sake, as the writer explained, we're entering the _debate_ period, during which all parties, pro and con, can engage, write briefs, lobby, etc. So McCain wants to preempt _debate_? Great! Isn't that what the right wing is accusing the current leftwing leadership of doing? Hypocritical much?

John McCain is trying to protect the freedom of American Corporations to limit the freedom of Americans. Corporate America is slightly threatened by the blog revolution and are determined to be able to control it, they simply can't abide a really free populace able to communicate freely without their censorship. President Obama would probably not be president if corporate America could have exerted more control over bloggers.

Woke, why are you such a pussy that you need people in Washington to decide everything for you?

Go down to a pharmacy near you, ask for a set of balls, and start living like a man with the precious time you have left. You might find it invigorating.

Hey, RIR, why don't you stay on topic rather than just bashing an individual? (Now watch. Here it comes. RIR will attack me.)

When the dumbass Wokes of the world can wonder why righty-tighties hate America just because we're not lined up in front of Obama's nut sack, I should be allowed to wonder if he turned in his pair of balls the day he registered Democrat.

Isn't that sort of like introducing a bill to prohibit the Treasury from printing money, or a bill to prohibit the IRS from collecting taxes?

Posted by woke
* * * *

Hmmmmm . . . . .

Woke wtf

Of course the govt should make laws that prevent themselves or corps to make the internet less free.

How does that make me sound like bush?


McCain Moves to Block Net Neutrality

The GOP's strategy for defeating Net Neutrality is to paint it as government control of the internet, a bold faced lie. It is in fact an attempt to limit the control of private ISP's from running it like they own it (they don't) at the expense of everyone else. It's interesting to see how the GOP rushes in to secure the future profits of their telecom paymasters and yet have no healthcare plan, or jobs plan. The only people left in the GOP are the suckers and the cynics. I can't wait to for the first sucker to post how letting the telecoms ass-rape the public will somehow trickle-down to the benefit of all.

Okay, RIR, I might have missed something. Obama has nothing to do with Net Neutrality, other than the fact that the chair of the FCC is, by regulation, of the government's party (and probably appointed by him). If anyone is lining "up in front of Obama's nut sack," other than his wife, there is a real problem. But I would wonder too why you can't have a conversation, even when expressing great frustration and anger, without falling to vulgarity.

But okay, I'll back off on criticizing your interaction with someone who is not me (for now : ) ) and ask what actual problem you have with Net Neutrality. Take a look at what Net Neutrality is intended to be--not gov't control, but rather limitations _on_ control--and tell me what the problem is. If you are all about unlimited capitalism, well, we have nothing to talk about it. (I'm not being an asshole, just saying.) But if you see that gov't has any place in regulating anything (other than force and fraud), then we should have something to talk about.

The Net Neutrality movement has never been about one party or the other. It should, in its pure form, be a bipartisan issue. Like health care reform, like welfare reform, like poverty reduction, like national security.

"Do you libbies really want the government to be able to control what takes place on the internet?

What a bunch of dumbasses. Do you really believe we're going to have libtards running Congress and the White House FOREVER?

#2 | Posted by rightisright at 2009-10-23 10:27 AM | Reply | Flag:

woke and his ilk dont give a fuck about freedoms if the govt can take it over and help to secure thier power over our lives
remember RIR...we are just too fuckin stupid to know whats best for us.

#3 | Posted by afkabl2 "

You two dumbfucks have such typical knee jerk reactions. The Net Neutrality is about ensuring providers can't limit access to anyone. It's about equality.

Fucking idiots.

I didn't know the internet was a problem or had a problem so why the need to fix it?


You two dumbfucks have such typical knee jerk reactions. The Net Neutrality is about ensuring providers can't limit access to anyone. It's about equality.

Fucking idiots.

#23 | Posted by furio

It's not a knee-jerk reaction. They're just regurgitating the carefully crafted (and well paid-for) talking points delivered to them, like orders, by email or talk radio or Fox News.


I didn't know the internet was a problem or had a problem so why the need to fix it?

#24 | Posted by moneywar

Net Neutrality will ensure that the internet remains as it is. The corporatists that oppose it want to control it, much like they control the GOP, in order to line their pockets at the expense of everyone else. Can you imagine what would happen if corporate america had control of the internet like they do with the rest of the media?

Hey Pragmatist we found something else we agree on.

Why would any citizen want their ISP to have more control over their lives. It's easy to say well if your ISP blocks what you want or drops bandwidth on sites you like switch but what happens when they are all doing it? Oh and if you think they won't then you have not been paying attention to the debate.

"Net neutrality opponents claim that the free market can police itself and that any net neutrality restrictions will stifle innovation and competition."

This is just like Wall Street not wanting derivatives to be regulated because their greed could see opportunity. This is nothing more that McCAin representing big corporations who will try and claim the internet as their property and charge whatever they wish, determine what messages are carried by it, etc. We need net neutrality and we need for this corporate lackey McCain to see his bill not even make it out of committee. Thank God this SOB didn't get elected president.

"woke and his ilk dont give a fuck about freedoms if the govt can take it over and help to secure thier power over our lives
remember RIR...we are just too fuckin stupid to know whats best for us."

You said it, and you were right. You two are just too stupid to know what is best for yourselves and the rest of us.

As in the health care debate these morons fear "government control" and thus are happily willing to give corporations the control. We can all vote for the leaders in our government, we have no say whatever to what corporations decide to do about our healthcare and now you want them to "own" the internet as well. Like I said before, you said it, you were right.

"Hey Pragmatist we found something else we agree on."

I love it when I can agree with someone reasonable. : )

Now Tao, do you have enough street cred with the righties here to get them to see that there's a truly bipartisan issue here?

Net Neutrality will ensure that the internet remains as it is

No. I'm pretty sure it forces carriers to accept free riders. Don't be fooled by the name.

I think Danni is to the left of Lenin.

^-^ John Lennon that is...

Well this one is easy to pick apart.

McCain says the FCC "shall not propose, promulgate, or issue any regulations regarding the Internet or IP-enabled services."

So let's follow this to its natural conclusion and just get rid of the FCC altogether. Because obviously TV and radio are controlled by the government right now. Including Fox News and those Birther infomercials!

You with me, right-wingers?

"Like I said before, you said it, you were right."
#29 | Posted by danni

At least you speak for yourself. Unfortunately you buffaloed into thinking your politicians are smarter than you....well in your case you may be correct.

Predictably, the same lemmings are for corporate control of the internets as the ones who defend Reaganomics, tax cuts for the rich, etc.
Why do you care anyway RAy, the whole shooting match is going to be swirling into the toilet soon according to your dire predictions. Seems to me you ought to be stocking up on canned goods and Depends.

"No. I'm pretty sure it forces carriers to accept free riders. Don't be fooled by the name."

What do you mean? Free riders as in ISPs will have to let people have their services for free? Oh, bullshit. Why are you people afraid to let the FCC have its public debate? If you have these fears, engage in the process.

Net Neutrality is meant to protect the democratic nature of the Internet; at least, this is what activists have been talking about for years. Do some _research_. If you find there are those who want gov't control, share that research. But of course if you're one of those who says any regulation is bad, then there's nowhere to go but where you are.

When the dumbass Wokes of the world can wonder why righty-tighties hate America just because we're not lined up in front of Obama's nut sack, I should be allowed to wonder if he turned in his pair of balls the day he registered Democrat.

#18 | Posted by rightisright

the america haters.. you sow your own seeds ..

As in the health care debate these morons fear "government control" and thus are happily willing to give corporations the control. We can all vote for the leaders in our government, we have no say whatever to what corporations decide to do about our healthcare and now you want them to "own" the internet as well. Like I said before, you said it, you were right.

------------

corporation = government without public input

As for net neutrality, I tend to be wary when people use buzz words for what they don't understand. I don't like the idea of anyone having the reich to control how information moves on the net ESPECIALLY corporations.

Predictably, the same lemmings are for corporate control of the internets as the ones who defend Reaganomics, tax cuts for the rich, etc.
Why do you care anyway RAy, the whole shooting match is going to be swirling into the toilet soon according to your dire predictions. Seems to me you ought to be stocking up on canned goods and Depends.
#36 | Posted by danni

I think I'm scaring Danni.

This looks like another issue of government taking over private property.

Ray, only if you believe that regulation equals takeover. But never mind, the usual-suspect righties hereon are replying only to others who use strong rhetoric, and avoiding exploration of the actual ideas.

Ray,

Net Neutrality as an issue means that your ISP can not block you or slow your bandwidth to certain ISP's. That seems like common sense and is basicly the way the internet is now.

However some ISP's want to limit or block bandwith to certain ISP's because people want to go there more than they would like and use a huge chunk of bandwidth. As the lines currently exist if every customer of most ISP's were to use the amount they are promised the ISP would crash, you see they over sell much like the airlines do. Now most have clauses built in allowing for this if you actualy read your contract, however they do gaurantee a minimum speed. So you are paying your ISP for x-x range of bandwith but they don't want you using that because it cost them more. So they want the ablity to take block or slow sites.

Now some sites could get around that by paying the ISP money to allow people better access. So big guys want the ISP's to do that because they could crush the smaller guys who might not be able to afford the fees.

Here is the thing even in dream capitalisim that would be bad because what we are talking about is bandwidth that you the customer has already paid for. Which is why I am for it. We are talking about making sure the government has the authority to enforce the contract that we the consumers sign.

All that said I have not read the law and am for Net Neutrality the issue but can not say I am for the law. However if you take away the power of the FCC to enforce the law then who does enforce the contract that you agreed to with your ISP?

Go John McCain beat the hell out of them DUMB ass demon-rats that want FCC and government to regulate and charge for sending e-mail and all internet domains anyone might want to visit. The obamanators ain't happy that it costs enough for internet service providers, now they want to pay for any internet use also...
Like it ain't Enough of obamanation controlling every aspect of our lives, now the left wants the FCC controlled by government to regulate and control the internet, and all obamanation's weak pea brained lackeys love to have it that way.
Like there ain't Enough McCain bashers.
Like We have an over abundance of obamanaters and his Sorry as blood sucking lap dogs who point fingers and accuse everyyone else of the evil they alone are guilty of. They like to kiss ole blue gum's ass all day long every day and the more he sticks it to them the more they enjoy bowing down to worship and suck such a creep...
If John McCain Whould lie, cheat and steal and try to destroy America like obamanation has done, all the sorry liberal left nut lap-dogs would have no doubt elected him for pres...
If the FCC regulates any part of the internet, you can bet your ass it will be controlled by the government and restricted, charged and taxed to death.
We have too many regulations to put up with as it is...

This looks like another issue of government taking over private property.

#41 | Posted by Ray

HUH??

The net was invented by the government with public dollars..how was this EVER PRIVATE PROPERTY??

Jesus republicans are fucking dumb on this issue. Small guy websites will completely fold if the net isn't kept neutral. All that will be left is big corporate websites.

Go John McCain beat the hell out of them DUMB ass demon-rats that want FCC and government to regulate and charge for sending e-mail and all internet domains anyone might want to visit. The obamanators ain't happy that it costs enough for internet service providers, now they want to pay for any internet use also...
Like it ain't Enough of obamanation controlling every aspect of our lives, now the left wants the FCC controlled by government to regulate and control the internet, and all obamanation's weak pea brained lackeys love to have it that way.
Like there ain't Enough McCain bashers.
Like We have an over abundance of obamanaters and his Sorry as blood sucking lap dogs who point fingers and accuse everyyone else of the evil they alone are guilty of. They like to kiss ole blue gum's ass all day long every day and the more he sticks it to them the more they enjoy bowing down to worship and suck such a creep...
If John McCain Whould lie, cheat and steal and try to destroy America like obamanation has done, all the sorry liberal left nut lap-dogs would have no doubt elected him for pres...
If the FCC regulates any part of the internet, you can bet your ass it will be controlled by the government and restricted, charged and taxed to death.
We have too many regulations to put up with as it is...

#44 | Posted by Dr_Feelgood a

with no FCC to watch, your service WILL go down and your price WILL go up.. guaranteed .. No teeth to enforce or regulate means total wild west..

It's just like McCaine and the rest of his aging followers to completely miss the point of the net neutrality issue. What part don't you get you idiots understand? McCaine want's to let companies like At&T or Verizon dole out bandwidth based on kickback fees. In other words, if you are a little guy like me that is struggling to make a living by creating services on the web that are not connected to a big guy like Amazon.com then you republicans think that's all fine and dandy as long as you own stock in one of them? Right ther is now 'internet tax' and the FCC is not proposing one. It's the big companies that want to tax all of us to death. They just don't call it a tax, but they are not going to let us get by if they can help it.

You republicans get more flustered by the hour.

Anyone who opposes net neutrality is fucking insane. I don't care what political party you identify with.

Oh, great.

Someone stupid enough to select Sarah Palin as a running mate is trying to tell everyone how the Internet should be run.

This looks like another issue of government taking over private property.

No it doesn't.

The FCC currently regulates terrestrial broadcast. They do things like fine CBS for a nipple slip and enforce other sorts of standards, like divvying up the frequency spectrum.

They do this because the airwaves are a public resource and the government is the political apparatus by which the public manages its own possessions.

The FCC regulates. That does not mean they own the broadcasters.

See the difference?

Without net neutrality, your ISP could one day decide they don't like a certain web site and prevent you from accessing it.

Sort of like without the FCC, somebody could jam the signal of a TV or radio station they don't like.

I find it hard to believe that's what you want, Ray.

You got 'em by the McNuggets snoofy.

Too bad the loud mouths don't get it.

This looks like another issue of government taking over private property.
Ray, only if you believe that regulation equals takeover.
#42 | Posted by pragmatist

Rule #1 - Never think of government as a friend of liberty.

Regulation is the traditional first step to full control. To keep the masses ignorant of its criminal activity, governments have an interest in the control of information. That why they run the Post Office and why they maintain license control over broadcasters. That's why the MSM is so dumbed down and only parrots news and information within politically correct boundaries.

The net was invented by the government with public dollars..how was this EVER PRIVATE PROPERTY??
#45 | Posted by Legio

Because the infrastructure was financed by private funds. There would have been no infrastructure if entrepreneurs did not anticipate the rights of ownership.

The FCC regulates. That does not mean they own the broadcasters.

Understood. That's what is known as fascism. It gives a surface appearance of private ownership, but with limited control over how owners use their property.

Without net neutrality, your ISP could one day decide they don't like a certain web site and prevent you from accessing it.

That prohibition is what governments are notorious for. When government does it, it affects ALL ISPs at once. When an ISP does it, one is free to take their business elsewhere. I'm not aware of any ISP who does that. It's not in their interest to alienate customers. Governments could care less.

Anyone who opposes net neutrality is fucking insane. I don't care what political party you identify with.

The net owes its success to neutrality. It's the usual dupes who are falling for the name. If I understand the issue correctly,'net neutrality' would force ISPs to service non-paying customers. That would eventually drive them out of business, laying the groundwork for a government takeover.

You people are too trusting about the aims and means of government. High government office attracts people who love power. They are alway on the prowl for new ways to dupe the general public into giving up their liberty.

Ray keep thinking corporate America is your friend. Maybe you need to get laid off again to get a reality check.

Jackass

After all I wrote, all you could come back with is that simplistic nonsense. I'm not defending corporate America, I'm defending private property rights. That concept must be alien to you.

Corporate America is not my friend. It's a partner in crime with government. Corporate America made a bad mistake in allying with government. Sometimes like this, it comes back to destroy them.

The reality check you need is in believing government is your friend. You're what a sheep is to a wolf.

"Understood. That's what is known as fascism. It gives a surface appearance of private ownership, but with limited control over how owners use their property."

So regulation equals fascism. Wow. Amazing world you live in, Ray.

"The net owes its success to neutrality."

Yep. So why not keep it neutral?

"It's the usual dupes who are falling for the name. If I understand the issue correctly,'net neutrality' would force ISPs to service non-paying customers. That would eventually drive them out of business, laying the groundwork for a government takeover."

Where the hell do you get this stuff? Net Neutrality has NEVER been about a free ride for anyone, just as regulating cellular technology has not resulted in gov't-paid or "free" cell phone service for anyone.

"You people are too trusting about the aims and means of government. High government office attracts people who love power. They are alway on the prowl for new ways to dupe the general public into giving up their liberty."

And you, sir, are way too paranoid. As shown by your equating regulation with fascism.

But you know, several people have made this point, one of whom is an avowed libertarian (or something close to it). If your reaction is always kneejerk big gov't paranoia, then you need to invent your own society. America has _always_ had regulations; read a little history. It's actually part of what made this country an economic power.

And if what you say about corporate America is true, Ray, you should be all over McCain on this one. Look at the language--it's all about handing power to corporate America.

Don't try to be Shawn, man; you can't wear his skin.

#2 | Posted by rightisright

Do you libbies really want the government to be able to control what takes place on the internet?

What a bunch of dumbasses. Do you really believe we're going to have libtards running Congress and the White House FOREVER?
--------------------------
They have selected memories, so to answer your question, YES they do

"They have selected memories"

Actually, I think mine came in some sort of non-optional original packaging.

Because the infrastructure was financed by private funds. There would have been no infrastructure if entrepreneurs did not anticipate the rights of ownership.

So what, all kinds of things are financed by private funds to the betterment of thos private industries.

Roads and street lights are financed by private funds because of the increased useage...Ray it is time to come out of the 1800s.

So regulation equals fascism. Wow. Amazing world you live in, Ray.

The name doesn't change the activity. It's one thing for government to protect property and another to control it.

"The net owes its success to neutrality."
Yep. So why not keep it neutral?

By that logic, it's solving a non-problem.

Where the hell do you get this stuff? Net Neutrality has NEVER been about a free ride for anyone, just as regulating cellular technology has not resulted in gov't-paid or "free" cell phone service for anyone.

According to the Wall Street Journal, you are wrong.
online.wsj.com

And you, sir, are way too paranoid. As shown by your equating regulation with fascism.

And I would argue, you are too gullible. Over my lifetime of 68 years, I've watched capitalism retreat and socialism advance. I don't see anything on the horizon to change that trend.

America has _always_ had regulations; read a little history. It's actually part of what made this country an economic power.

There are degrees from enabling to stifling. I'm sad to say that this country is on the way down to a second rate economic power.

And if what you say about corporate America is true, Ray, you should be all over McCain on this one. Look at the language--it's all about handing power to corporate America.

Again, read the link to the WSJ. It's an internecine battle between corporate giants. I see it more fundamentally as an issue over private property rights.

"They have selected memories"

Could I have a bright, sunny day walking the beach at Martha's Vineyard, please? Oh, and that first kiss (but without the braces)? Yes? Well, then, you might as well toss in a couple of rollercoaster rides and a baker's dozen of infinite orgasms. Thanks. What? No, keep the change.

("Hey, how much is Screw? This guy wants to by a copy of Screw.")

Roads and street lights are financed by private funds because of the increased useage...Ray it is time to come out of the 1800s.
#61 | Posted by moneywar

Public infrastructure is another issue entirely.

Welcome to the 21th century and live to see the fall and decline of a once great nation.

Regulation is the traditional first step to full control.

What crap.

Regulation is the traditional first step in keeping the playing field fair and equal.

Public infrastructure is another issue entirely.

Bullshit, it addressed your statement perfectly and showed just how wrong you can be with those far right neoliberal mentality of yours.

Welcome to the 21th century and live to see the fall and decline of a once great nation.

Now I don't disagree with you here. As long as we have so many corporate pandering idiots supporting the wishes of the corporations instead of the people we will continue to fall.

It always amazes me that people feel the need to support the one(corporate)individual over the thousands and at the same time trying to say those corporations are private.

If I understand the issue correctly,'net neutrality' would force ISPs to service non-paying customers.

You don't understand the issue correctly.

No, Money. You sidestepped the issue entirely. The internet was developed and maintained with private money.

Regulation is the traditional first step in keeping the playing field fair and equal.

You repeat that like a parrot without knowing the issues involved. Go crawl back into your socialist foxhole.

When Ray's site only loads at 14.4 speed he will know why net neutrality was a good thing. This site will bog down like crazy too since RCADE won't be able to pay for his site to load as fast as a large corporate site.

Now I don't disagree with you here. As long as we have so many corporate pandering idiots supporting the wishes of the corporations instead of the people we will continue to fall.
It always amazes me that people feel the need to support the one(corporate)individual over the thousands and at the same time trying to say those corporations are private.
#67 | Posted by moneywar

Read my post at #56. You keep throwing the the same bullshit in my face and I'm getting tired of repeating myself.

No, Money. You sidestepped the issue entirely. The internet was developed and maintained with private money.

I didn't sidestep any issue, there are roads and lights that were developed and maintained with private money all the time but run and regulated by the government......also.....been to an airport lately? Ever fly on a plane? Guess not cause you can't seemed to grasp private money developing and maintaining such but regulated by the government.

Highest regulated industry in the world is also the most competive in the world.

You just can't hold a warm cup of water in your thinking.

"The internet was developed and maintained with private money."

DARPA, CERN, "private money," yeah, ... you bet.

When Ray's site only loads at 14.4 speed he will know why net neutrality was a good thing. This site will bog down like crazy too since RCADE won't be able to pay for his site to load as fast as a large corporate site.
#70 | Posted by jackass

You're brain dead. That's what would happen if AT&T is forced to carry other giants like Google and Netflix for free. Get informed before you make a jackass out of yourself.

FYI, unions are against 'net neutrality'.

"Earlier this week, two big labor unions, the Communications Workers of America and the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workerstook out advertisements in the Washington Post raising concerns that the new rules could discourage investments in telecommunications infrastructure, which to the unions means jobs."

online.wsj.com

Ray, your full of shit because in your supposed quest to defend private property it in reality throws overwhelming support for corporations.

And in 90% of anything you post it is always anti-worker...anti-labor and pro-corporations.

You just can't seemed to grasp that all your past ACTIONS don't aline with the small quib of post #56.

You're the most anti-labor(workforce), anti-american people individual that ever posts here. Everything you stand for has been shown through out history that it is the surest way to failure.

"The internet was developed and maintained with private money."
DARPA, CERN, "private money," yeah, ... you bet.
#73 | Posted by Zatoichi

Duh. Those two are strictly paid for and used by government. From Wiki:

"The Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) is an agency of the United States Department of Defense responsible for the development of new technology for use by the military."

"CERN's main function is to provide the particle accelerators and other infrastructure needed for high-energy physics research."

"Earlier this week, two big labor unions, the Communications Workers of America and the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workerstook out advertisements in the Washington Post raising concerns that the new rules could discourage investments in telecommunications infrastructure, which to the unions means jobs."

So fucking what, regulation is not for generating jobs it is for fairness and equality for ALL not just the few.

My word...get a damn clue.

Ray, your full of shit because in your supposed quest to defend private property it in reality throws overwhelming support for corporations.
#75 | Posted by moneywar

You're retarded. What else can I conclude?

Shit ray, do you even know what CERN is?

For a supposed engineer that is scary.

ME: Where the hell do you get this stuff? Net Neutrality has NEVER been about a free ride for anyone, just as regulating cellular technology has not resulted in gov't-paid or "free" cell phone service for anyone.

RAY: According to the Wall Street Journal, you are wrong.
online.wsj.com

ME: I didn't see anything in there about forcing providers to give free access (meaning no-cost) to anyone. Maybe I read too fast. If you saw that in there, and you really want me to see it, you'll have to quote it.

Again, I think you don't understand net neutrality, and I think your fear of government gets in the way. Ultimately, I don't think I can have a fruitful conversation with someone whose premise appears to be that regulation is fascism. Again, I learned in high school that government involvement in trade and property is part of what made this country so strong on the world stage. This was never a free-for-all capitalist country, nor was it a place of organized anarchy. The founding fathers wanted rules that they were _part of_, not a place of no rules.

is an agency of the United States Department of Defense

And what part of this is fucking private??????

This was never a free-for-all capitalist country

Ray just can't grasp that we are a REPUBLIC.

RAY: The net owes its success to neutrality."

ME: Yep. So why not keep it neutral?

RAY: By that logic, it's solving a non-problem.

ME: No, it's not. It's seeing a problem that is coming, that has been rearing its ugly head more and more over the last few years, and acting to stop it now.

Why are you so against the democratizing power of the Internet? That's what it seems like. Without regulation, left to the corporations, power will be taken _away_ from the people. That's been true of every medium (see the rise of corporate media giants and the fact that most of the media is owned by FIVE corporate titans); why is it not true of the Internet?

Regulation is the traditional first step to full control.
What crap.
Regulation is the traditional first step in keeping the playing field fair and equal.

#65 | POSTED BY MONEYWAR

yep.. like child labor laws, Food and Drug safety, motoring laws..etc etc..

No, Money. You sidestepped the issue entirely. The internet was developed and maintained with private money.
Regulation is the traditional first step in keeping the playing field fair and equal.
You repeat that like a parrot without knowing the issues involved. Go crawl back into your socialist foxhole.

#69 | POSTED BY RAY

Doesn't mean the corporations "own" it. They own the wire and servers and don't own the right to regulate or determine who can and can't use their networks. The technology is collectively owned by the public domain since it was developed by DARPA. The genie is out of the bottle Ray..

Socialism has been creeping forward and is sociologically a natural progression in society due to the very size of the human population. The larger the population the more control the governments place on citizenry. You can thank the "be fruitful and multiply" crowd for socialism.

Pragmatist

Again, I learned in high school that government involvement in trade and property is part of what made this country so strong on the world stage. This was never a free-for-all capitalist country, nor was it a place of organized anarchy. The founding fathers wanted rules that they were _part of_, not a place of no rules.

It took me decades to purge the government brainwashing I got in my early years.

From the WSJ:

"Google to date has gotten relatively a free pass that they're somehow promoting the public good on net neutrality as opposed to, what I see, is that they're trying to entrench their business model," said Robert Quinn, AT&T's senior regulatory lawyer in Washington."

"AT&T and other Internet-access providers want latitude to manage traffic on congested wireless networks and freedom to devote a chunk of their wired networks to selling more expensive services. Internet providers are worried regulators are assuming veto power over their efforts to develop new revenue streams from their Internet lines.

"Google and other Internet companies fret that phone and cable companies will hobble their efforts to offer competing services online or will try charging them more for better connections to consumers."

This is shaping up as in issue over users who expect carriers like AT&T to subsidize their high volume business model. Again, it's issue over private property rights.

Ray just can't grasp that we are a REPUBLIC.
#82 | Posted by moneywar

Moneywar can't grasp that we are a socialist/fascist/ militarist/corporatist state. I can't find a good word for this mongrel.

Socialism has been creeping forward and is sociologically a natural progression in society due to the very size of the human population. The larger the population the more control the governments place on citizenry. You can thank the "be fruitful and multiply" crowd for socialism.
#85 | Posted by Legio

Without exception, it's been the downfall of every nation. Socialism has no means for creating wealth. It is an ideology of wealth confiscation.

Doesn't mean the corporations "own" it. They own the wire and servers and don't own the right to regulate or determine who can and can't use their networks.

Oh yes they do. Control is an imperative of private property rights.

The technology is collectively owned by the public domain since it was developed by DARPA. The genie is out of the bottle Ray..

That's really a stretch. The technology and infrastructure was considerably refined since then. Without the profit motive, it never would have come to fruition and the public would have been without benefit.

Ray

go back up and read my #43

I will read some more on the actualy propsed legislation but first I have to know if you are arguing the issue or the legislation.

The issue it's self I did a good job (IMHO) in explaining.

However what you are talking about has nothing to do with the issue of net neutrality.

"This is shaping up as in issue over users who expect carriers like AT&T to subsidize their high volume business model. Again, it's issue over private property rights."

I thought this was where you were going. Nowhere does this say, though, that companies will be forced to give services away. The corporations are making an argument that it will interfere with their revenue stream, which is true if their revenue depends on charging money to larger companies so that said larger companies can control consumer access to smaller sites, etc.

As for your gov't brainwashing, I'm ready for evidence that shows that America was ever about free-for-all capitalism and what we now perceive as libertarian values. I've actually read lots of those founding fathers' documents, and I just don't see it.

And I think it's funny that you keep decrying the corporations at the same time that you are defending their "rights" and arguing (or seeming to argue) for free-market capitalism (which has never existed in this country anyway).

But I appreciate your taking the time to present your thoughts civilly (with me).

At risk of sounding like a broken record, no media activist I've met and discussed Net Neutrality with over the last five years has in mind any sort of cost-free access model. What they want is _open access_. And McCain doesn't seem to get that. I'm not sure you get that either--that, or your vision is defined by your sense of free-market ideology. Which, needless to say, I don't share.

(And for those still hyping on Obama's socialist agenda, etc., he has not, to my knowledge, spoken up about Net Neutrality. Yes, media regulation tends to be a liberal point, and yes, the FCC of the last several years--Michael Powell--has gone in the opposite direction. But it should be a bipartisan issue. We should all want open access, unfettered by corporate control of what we get to see and at what speed.)

Nice job, Tao. Clear and concise.

Tao

That was a good explanation. If I understand you correct, it is an issue over contract commitments. On those grounds, I would agree with you. I haven't paid much attention to the issue until this morning. So I could be wrong on the issue of property rights.

In times like this when both sides seem right, I plead neutral until I get more detail.

Ray admits he was wrong at last. Maybe now he will retract all of his statements about union labor.

Ray,

I agree with you about staying neutral and like I said I would have to see any legislation before I could agree or disagree with it.

I found this site: www.opposingviews.com

It seems to give a pretty decent break down of both sides but still does not deal with any actualy legislation beyond the question do we need it.

Genteelly done, Ray. But it's not about contract commitments--the WSJ article you cited is similar to that, but the Net Neutrality issue/movement is much bigger. Though if it helps you to see it through the lens of being held to promises, well, all right.

If you're really interested, look up Net Neutrality (you know, Google it ; ) ), and explore the issue in depth. There are essays, opinion pieces, studies, and a history of activism. Free Press (freepress.net) has a lot of stuff on it, as may Project Censored (projectcensored.org). Yes, these are left-leaning organizations, but I know you can read past the bias to see whether there are issues of merit to be found...

Pragmatist

And I think it's funny that you keep decrying the corporations at the same time that you are defending their "rights" and arguing (or seeming to argue) for free-market capitalism (which has never existed in this country anyway).

Of course free market capitalism has never existed in this country, but it was close until the Civil War. Politicians, by their very nature, are hostile to individual liberty.

As for your gov't brainwashing, I'm ready for evidence that shows that America was ever about free-for-all capitalism and what we now perceive as libertarian values. I've actually read lots of those founding fathers' documents, and I just don't see it.

Unfortunately as measured by the rampant growth of government, very few Americans see it. When we get trained early in life to see things a certain way, it takes long years of purposeful reading and thought, to see them another way. The Founding Fathers are a start, but they only begin to untangle the disinformation inculcated into us from popular opinion, formal education and the mainstream media. Americans, on the whole, have lost the sense of what it means to be free.

If you are interested try:
fee.org
mises. org
fff.org
lfb.org

Ray admits he was wrong at last. Maybe now he will retract all of his statements about union labor.
#94 | Posted by jackass

Unions have been on a long road towards extinction. They screwed themselves by driving up business expenses - company by company until there aren't many unionized jobs left. I won't feel sorry for you when you get laid off.

People like ray don't understand that without government regulation we would be back to the days of slave trade and children working in sweat shops. Without the post office we would have to pay UPS $50.00 to deliver a letter across the country. Without traffic cops, our highways would cease to move cars simply because of the sheer numbers of bodies in the way.

You all damned sure better get out and support net neutrality or the only way you will be able to voice your opinion in the future is a censored site with language and politics filters and ads you will have to watch before you can read every single post.

Pragmatist and Tao

On rare occasions, government does something right, like when they broke up the AT&T monopoly (that they were protecting for decades). I tend to have a kneejerk reaction against anything government does until persuaded otherwise.

Both sides of issue like this are very clever at making themselves the victim, so it takes a while to see through the fog.

I'm not gonna get into the education argument again (if it's really all brainwashing, how did you get to be who you are, but never mind), but I might be interested in these:

If you are interested try:
fee.org
mises. org
fff.org
lfb.org

If I knew what they are, that is. ; ) I guess I'll look at some point (no time today for outside research--I'm too busy brainwashing young people : ) --but I am intrigued by alternate points of view), but I'd love some context.

"Both sides of issue like this are very clever at making themselves the victim, so it takes a while to see through the fog."

Exactly. I was just asking you to try to see through the fog, rather than going to the "gov't is always bad" position. I hope our discussion has led you to consider this alternate possibility. I surely have my own biases (and I know that the sources I listed have theirs), but I also work to see various sides of an issue, so while I don't share your worldview, I appreciate your input.

People like ray don't understand that without government regulation we would be back to the days of slave trade and children working in sweat shops.

People like Ringmaster don't understand that they are selling away their liberties to government.

One can't compare the early days of capitalism to today's standards. Families during those days had the choice of starving or working in sweatshops. Conditions were worse on the farm.

You all damned sure better get out and support net neutrality or the only way you will be able to voice your opinion in the future is a censored site with language and politics filters and ads you will have to watch before you can read every single post.

Free speech is another issue, an issue that government has a long record of hostility to.

I can't help but wonder what Ray thinks about HULU now planning to charge us for watching commercials before watching their choppy shows.

I cut off satellite TV years ago because they were charging me for broadcasts that were paid for by advertisements in the first place. If this is what the net turns into because of ignorant right wing morons, then I for one will go back to reading books and watching movies at a theater. At least then I can choose my own subject matter rather then get spoon fed propaganda intended to make me believe paying for the net is a privilege, not a right anymore.

Don't let the right-wing-nuts take that right away too! They have already done enough damage to freedom and liberty in this once great country.

Free speech is another issue, an issue that government has a long record of hostility to.

WTF would you know about free speech? If it wasn't for our government's laws protecting free speech, you would be living in a country like Iran, run by corporations like Microsoft.

If I knew what they are, that is. ; ) I guess I'll look at some point (no time today for outside research--I'm too busy brainwashing young people : ) --but I am intrigued by alternate points of view), but I'd love some context.

That's the secret to rational living.

I know brainwashing is a strong word. Inculcation might be more objective. It's not deceit, because usually those doing the inculcation believe what they doing.

WTF would you know about free speech? If it wasn't for our government's laws protecting free speech, you would be living in a country like Iran, run by corporations like Microsoft.
#105 | Posted by RingMaster

It's all in degrees and awareness. You are living in a sea of disinformation and not aware of it. Much of the success of the web has to do with the fact that it is so diverse. It's wrecking television and newspapers who typically cater to political correctness.

I could never be as informed as I am today without the web. I submit that the powers-that-be see the web as a threat to their control.

Most humans in this society would probably argue that they are rational. I believe that often our reactions are not. I believe that of you, Ray, and of me. Your first reaction to this issue appeared to be kneejerk--you used words like fascism and brainwashing, the latter of which you are now backing away from.

But that's why I called you paranoid, because based only in your words, that seemed apt. Perhaps now we have a better understanding of each other. Perhaps we are both, in our respective ways, fooling ourselves. I certainly believe in what I am doing, as a parent and a teacher, but I also believe I am trying to foster an attitude of questioning in my children and my students. Yes, I want them to accept certain things (grammar), but I also want them to challenge me and to explore the world of ideas. Some of them even buy into this idea (of questioning and looking at the world critically); some just want a good grade; some don't give a shit.

I give a shit. It's why I try to be fairly serious and fairly civil here. It's why the invective and rhetoric here (often from folks on both sides of the aisle) get me down.

And media is a huge part of my teaching life, so it's important to me that we (citizens) have these conversations and look at these issued deeply and yes, rationally. But here, all we have to go on is our words--we (most of us) don't know each other in real life, so we can only infer, conclude, and assume. Which is both empowering and delimiting.

"It's wrecking television and newspapers who typically cater to political correctness."

Really? Even rightwing newspapers? : )

"I could never be as informed as I am today without the web. I submit that the powers-that-be see the web as a threat to their control."

Agreed. But where we take that conclusion is very different indeed. Or might be. I don't assume that the FCC exists to limit us and control our understanding of the world. Not that I think they're out to help us in some altruistic way. But there is room in the middle, I think. I believe.

I can't help but wonder what Ray thinks about HULU now planning to charge us for watching commercials before watching their choppy shows.

No opinion yet. Never heard of it until now. I have the link. I'll look at it.

I'm so put off by commercials that I hardly watch TV. My free time is divided between the web, books and Netflix.

Don't let the right-wing-nuts take that right away too! They have already done enough damage to freedom and liberty in this once great country.

No argument there.

"Net Neutrality has NEVER been about a free ride for anyone" - Prag

Prag, it is about a free ride, the carriers want to maintain a QoS, they want to throttle those sites, individuals etc.. that use up large portions of thier bandwidth. HULU makes money off thier content, Comcast loses because the QoS drops for everyone else. This problem is true for any medium, its a resource and needs to be allocated for the masses, not individuals. Those that create the pipes should be able to control its flow. To use Water and Electricity analogy, the city fines people that use too much water, or use water at the wrong times and even the wrong uses. They also charge peak hour rates. Why in a government regulated industry like water and electricity would you allow throttling regulations, but not in the private industry?

The only regulation that should be passed concerining the ISP's is to disclose thier throttling parameters in the contract, and any advertising. The games being played by the ISP's needs to stop. I find it fraudulant to claim a download speed, and not tell you what they are throttling.

Most humans in this society would probably argue that they are rational. I believe that often our reactions are not. I believe that of you, Ray, and of me. Your first reaction to this issue appeared to be kneejerk--you used words like fascism and brainwashing, the latter of which you are now backing away from.

Nothing personal. For reasons I am sure you are aware, I've gotten in the habit here of using hyperbole to get a point across.

Most humans in this society would probably argue that they are rational.

True. I can usually tell when someone is emotionally attached to a way of thinking when there is a wealth of information to the contrary. I try to keep balance from reading a variety of sources. I've had ideas that I've accepted for decades, only to be demolished by a new way of looking at them.

The little guys website will slow to a crawl because he won't be able to pay the fees to make their website load fast. I thought all the rethugs are pro small business?

Andrea,

Yes but if they are going to charge me for 3 megabits and throtle the sites I want to 1 megabit then I am not getting the service I paid for. If they can not provide the QoS that they advertise then they need to quit advertising it or charge more so they can upgrade their network.

#111 | Posted by AndreaMackris

Now it's beginning to make sense. It's a contract AND a property rights issue. Each side was giving us half the story.

Competitors sites may not even load without net neutrality.

Andrea, a free ride would mean someone gets access for nothing. There is NOTHING in the Net Neutrality movement (I don't know about the regs being promulgated or considered by the FCC, but it's not as if this organization has a history of giving shit away) that asks for something for nothing. I have NEVER met a media educator who wants providers to give stuff away. We want providers not to limit access. We want all bloggers, website producers, etc. to have the same rights, and all users to have the same rights. To use your water service analogy, if the water company can say, oh, you on the West Side can have water today but you on the East Side can't because the West Siders are able to pay us more, they beg to be regulated. But your analogy doesn't work anyway because the water service is a public service and generally run by one company, whereas Internet Service Providers are myriad.

And Ray, it's not property rights and contract, but again, if it helps you to think of those things, fine. There needs to be a balance between market and democracy, as in all aspects of life. But I've made all these points before. And probably better than I'm making them now.

If you (the general you) believe that no business should be regulated, ever, then we will never agree. I believe the FCC does too little, and we have, through the agency, abrogated our rights regarding ownership and lost much. (Cf. the one market/one owner regulations that have changed. The FTC is also culpable; cf. the advertising to children shift in the 1980s--1984, I think, funny enough.)

Ray there is a third component in the debate and that is that many cable and DSL companies own not only the phisical infrastructure but also the legal rights to certain areas. Now where I am I have 2 choices for service high speed service TWC and BellSouth. Now if I don't want high speed my choices are much broader however that will in effect throttle me because it is low speed.

"The little guys website will slow to a crawl because he won't be able to pay the fees to make their website load fast. I thought all the rethugs are pro small business?"
#113 | Posted by jackass

This is what bugs me about net-neutrality complaints, the ISP's want to charge content providers based on the potential for bandwidth use, i.e. they want to charge whether or not the site is visited at all. This turns the egalitarian nature of what the internet is supposed to be, right on its head. As it stands now, the content provider pays the ISP for the bandwidth that actually gets used, correct?

"The little guys website will slow to a crawl because he won't be able to pay the fees to make their website load fast."
#113 | Posted by jackass

Every new site will be at a competetive disadvantage because entry fees will be prohibitive. Even if you have great computer skills, you'll be forced to pay a premium for the right to employ those skills on a webpage.

All new sites will look like the retort, i.e. text based sites, sans the java laden ads.

Seems odd to me that RCADE hasn't commented on this thread. I would think he would definitely have a view point which those of us who don't operate web sites like his would be interested in knowing.

"Now where I am I have 2 choices for service high speed service TWC and BellSouth."

Here it's Comcast and Bellsouth. Probably most places I would think, unless you consider Hughes Satellite high speed internet but that was very expensive when I looked into it.

I believe the FCC does too little, and we have, through the agency, abrogated our rights regarding ownership and lost much. (Cf. the one market/one owner regulations that have changed. The FTC is also culpable; cf. the advertising to children shift in the 1980s--1984, I think, funny enough.)
#117 | Posted by pragmatist

I can tell you without reservation that the regulatory agencies, as a whole, do not have an interest in protecting the public. They protect the sector they are responsible for regulating. That should be especially obvious in banking. It's another reason why government regulation has been a failure.

We have to be on guard against idealizing when the facts of reality are entirely contrary.

And Ray, it's not property rights and contract, but again, if it helps you to think of those things, fine. There needs to be a balance between market and democracy, as in all aspects of life. But I've made all these points before. And probably better than I'm making them now.

From my free market perspective, we vote by the way we spend money; it's very effective. This yearly ritual of voting for either of two political parties is a fraud. Voters have no control over government.

Danni,

Comcast is really the one who has thrust this into the limelight as they are doing exactly what NN is suposed to prevent.

That has thrown away the argument that service providers would not do it and seriously weekened the case agaisnt NN. What makes it worse is they started doing it without notifying users.

"We have to be on guard against idealizing when the facts of reality are entirely contrary."

You mean when your interpretation of the facts of reality is entirely contrary.

Those who believe in gov't believe that it exists to serve _us_. But yes, the banking industry is a fiasco. However, that doesn't mean it should be deregulated. That means (to me) that its regulation should be made effective. Again, philosophical disparity. I will never be convinced that businesses will regulate themselves, nor that the consumer will force business (as a natural result of doing business) to do right.

But you did read my comment that you quoted, right? : ) It said much what you are saying--that in these cases, there has been failure. I would argue that it's because of lobbies and because of unrestricted capitalistic ventures. The antitrust laws are bullshit. Look at media ownership. FIVE companies own pretty much all the media. The leftie, homo, blah blah blah representations that many righties decry are common because _they sell_. And they sell at least partly because it's all there is. Most of what's in the media (and here I mean entertainment) is of a kind. Alternate voices and alternate presentations are limited because of the distribution models and because of the oligolopoly. Regulation--like the limitations we used to have on how many news/broadcast sources could be owned by one company in a single market--would help with this.

Government should be the stuff we do together to make our society work for the good of the largest number of people. It doesn't happen because systems are hard to manage. I wonder about those people who seem to see all government is bad. Why do they live in any society at all? Why not drop out? If there's no good in gov't... (But that's sort of like the rightwing "If you don't like it, move to Russia!" So that's why I only wonder it, rather than saying it out loud. : ) )

"From my free market perspective, we vote by the way we spend money; it's very effective. This yearly ritual of voting for either of two political parties is a fraud. Voters have no control over government."

So we should have no gov't? No regulation? I agree that the two-party system is for shit. So FIX it. Why not act to change it rather than pretending it doesn't exist and that some libertarian push will fix all our problems? Deregulation will not solve any of these issues--I don't believe it for a second. But that's why it's your perspective, not mine.

To use your water service analogy, if the water company can say, oh, you on the West Side can have water today but you on the East Side can't because the West Siders are able to pay us more, they beg to be regulated. But your analogy doesn't work anyway because the water service is a public service and generally run by one company, whereas Internet Service Providers are myriad.

Prag, maybe you missed Andrea's point. Contract issues aside, AT&T has a legitimate case for charging heavy users according to bandwith.

And Ray, it's not property rights and contract, but again, if it helps you to think of those things, fine. There needs to be a balance between market and democracy, as in all aspects of life.

That sounds like a euphemism for social engineering. There is no objective definition to what constitutes 'balance'.

Prag, maybe you missed Andrea's point. Contract issues aside, AT&T has a legitimate case for charging heavy users according to bandwith.

How can you put contract issues aside? Those heavy users paid for their bandwidth if AT&T could not deliver they should have charged more or not promised so much. I pay for 5mb I could pay for 1.5,3,5,10 so if they can only give me 1.5 only charge me for that. If they have to charge what I am paying for 1.5 then renegotiate the contract with me. Don't decide how I will use my bandwidth so you can pretend to give me 5 while only giving me 1.5

So we should have no gov't?

Absolutely not! The difference is in degrees, between a government that protects liberty and property, and one that violates liberty and property.

Why not act to change it rather than pretending it doesn't exist and that some libertarian push will fix all our problems? Deregulation will not solve any of these issues--I don't believe it for a second.

I try to educate, but it is of limited effectiveness, as you yourself exemplify. In #122, I just explained why regulation is a failure. You are thinking on the basis that consumers are helpless before private business. I don't accept that on the grounds that they have to cater to consumer values to stay in business. The transactions between business and customer are voluntary.

I argue that our government is essentially a criminal operation on the basis that it operates through fraud, coercion and force. It is through this venue where corporations get license for their misdeeds.

How can you put contract issues aside?

I wasn't negating contract issues, but trying to look at each in isolation. I just said before in #115 "It's a contract AND a property rights issue. Each side was giving us half the story."

On the contract side, I agree with you.

You are thinking on the basis that consumers are helpless before private business. I don't accept that on the grounds that they have to cater to consumer values to stay in business. The transactions between business and customer are voluntary.

Before the day of mega corps that would be true but with the power business has amased I do not see how consumers have the power they once had.

I wasn't negating contract issues, but trying to look at each in isolation. I just said before in #115 "It's a contract AND a property rights issue. Each side was giving us half the story."

On the contract side, I agree with you.

My point is that I have a contract to use their private property, if they want a different contract let them re-negotiate with me I may or may not agree and if I don't then I can find another provider. NN assures that they will live by the agreed on contract. I am not out to force them to do any more than that.

Contract issues aside, AT&T has a legitimate case for charging heavy users according to bandwith.

Herein lies the rub...AT&T does not have a legitimate right to decide how it's bandwidth is being used. It is not in the business if creating content. If it were not for net neutrality (which BTW is the way the net has prospered so far) then AT&T certainly would be in the business of deciding what content we can view.

Take for example my own ISP. It is a small independent WIFI system that services a very remote and difficult area to serve with cable or DSL service. There is only around 400 subscribers each paying a set monthly fee for a share in the total bandwidth. It is your basic 'mom and pop' local business. So far there has never been fees based on monthly bandwidth usage and the system, because it is small, allows the users to get better service then anyone on cable who does limit bandwidth (at least those that can get it) for about the same price. The WIFI company pays more for the bandwidth from AT&T because they buy so little compared to the island wide cable company (Oceanic Cable), so AT&T is happy.

If this small WIFI company was charged variable rates from AT&T then it would in effect be subject to management decisions about what content it can allow it's subscribers to use. Instead what it has to do is keep upgrading it's equipment to stay profitable, and it has done that which is why it is still profitable after 8 years of service. In fact because of the competition from Oceanic, who is now trying to muscle into our niche market, it is nearly twice as fast as Oceanic and without the restrictions that Oceanic has. Now guess who want's to do away with net neutrality? I'll give you a hint, it ain't The WIFI company.

In other words, competition is the small ISP providers best friend and AT&T can only provide the raw bandwidth it is contracted to deliver. The big boys like Oceanic want AT&T to regulate the bandwidth because they already have the lions share of the service on the Big Island. What they want is all of it and the easiest way to get it all is to choke out the independents who can offer a better service, because they are smaller and don't have to deal with the infrastructure cost of thousands of miles of obsolete cable in the first place.

Eliminating net neutrality is the work of big business, and politics with their right wing losers like John McCaine needs to butt out.

"Absolutely not! The difference is in degrees, between a government that protects liberty and property, and one that violates liberty and property."

Then we don't disagree. That's the balance I was talking about, Ray. This is getting frustrating, so I think I need to disengage. Your social engineering crack is bizarre, given that you just said the above. Which is what I'm talking about.

"You are thinking on the basis that consumers are helpless before private business. I don't accept that on the grounds that they have to cater to consumer values to stay in business. The transactions between business and customer are voluntary."

Nope. Not helpless. But needing help. Not the same thing. Did you miss my oligolopoly reference/discussion? *sigh* I thought we were getting somewhere.

"I argue that our government is essentially a criminal operation on the basis that it operates through fraud, coercion and force. It is through this venue where corporations get license for their misdeeds."

Huh? So an effort to regulate gives people permission to be shitty? That's just bizarre, Ray. I feel like you're arguing in a circle. And then, with your criminal operation comment, I'm back to my wondering why people who feel this don't drop out of society. I don't see, given the history of business, how anyone can think that business will be good or do good if left to its own devices. Child labor, serfdom, slavery, etc. all argue against this. Capitalism is, by its nature, based in greed. Greed, despite the famous speech from the movie Wall Street, is not good. A love of money is the root of all evil.

But I said I needed to disengage. So you all can argue it out. I've made my points more than once. I've offered leads to sources where the issue is explained better than I can explain it. I had even thought we'd found some common ground. But apparently not.

Without exception, it's been the downfall of every nation. Socialism has no means for creating wealth. It is an ideology of wealth confiscation.

#88 | POSTED BY RAY

There is much worse..Communism, Fascism, Monarchy, Dictatorship.

Socialism is not where the State controls everything.. please see the above.

you CAN have a mixture of both and be successful.

There is much worse..Communism, Fascism, Monarchy, Dictatorship.

My point is that this country is moving in that direction. We don't know where it will stop or what will stop it.

you CAN have a mixture of both and be successful.

Eventually socialism crowds out capitalism as it has happened here. Every time.

"Eventually socialism crowds out capitalism as it has happened here. Every time."

Here? Did we become socialist and I didn't notice? Capitalism is dead? Hm. You better tell my brother the small-business owner.

I wouldn't be sad if we moved a little closer to socialism. Just a little. Unfettered capitalism is dangerous.

Prag

Your social engineering crack is bizarre, given that you just said the above. Which is what I'm talking about.

We've seen this democratic republic go from a free society to a much less free society. I think it's turned out to be a failure. The 'social engineering' comment comes about because there is no objective standard for what constitutes a balance between the market and democracy. That leave the issue open to bureaucratic meddling, aka social engineering.

Huh? So an effort to regulate gives people permission to be shitty?

Who regulates the regulators? Authorizing government regulators only pushes the problem to another level.

Nope. Not helpless. But needing help. Not the same thing. Did you miss my oligolopoly reference/discussion? *sigh* I thought we were getting somewhere.

I must have missed it, but I agree with you. Corporations get their power from government. This is an important point.

Capitalism is, by its nature, based in greed.

Greed is intrinsic to human nature; we are what we are, government are no exception. Fundamentally, capitalism is a system of accounting that encourages savings. In turn, savings are used for capital investment. Our current monetary system gives an appearance of capitalism, but our money is created from debt. In short, what you decry as capitalism is socialism.

On the other hand, centralized power is extremely dangerous. The history books are full of war and persecution. Citizens are more at risk from their own government than they are from foreign powers. I'm not exaggerating.

As I told you before, it took me decades to undo the brainwashing I got in my youth. I can see the rapid deterioration in this country. We're in for some hard times.

Here? Did we become socialist and I didn't notice? Capitalism is dead? Hm. You better tell my brother the small-business owner.

Again to clarify where I am coming from. American politics is a mix of socialism, fascism, corporatism and militarism. Since the Progressive Era after the Civil War, government has been slowly taking more control over our lives, all with popular approval.

Government controls almost every aspect of the market economy. About half of our earnings go to pay taxes which is doled out according to political self interest. More people collect money from government that pay into it. Government is the source of inflation and the destruction of wealth. We're one crises away from martial law. Where does it stop? What is going to stop it?

Fundamentally, capitalism is a system of accounting that encourages savings.

Someone sure sold you a load of nonsense Ray. Capitalism is a system where we encourage everyone to spend, spend, spend and when the money runs out we give them credit. The whole premise of advertisement is to get people to let go of their money.

I don't think you have a clue what socialism is either. Socialism is a system in which the government owns the businesses like what is happening in Cuba or Venezuela. This is not happening in America. Government regulating business is the purpose of government. Without government oversight, we would have people out hunting minorities like they were native Americans again and McDonalds would be serving us rat meat burgers if it was more profitable then beef. Our national parks would all be defaced with hotels and fast food joints just like what happened to Waikiki Beach or Lake Tahoe.

Wine would be transported in pig bladders in the back of an open pickup along with the rest of the pig like I saw years ago in Greece.

Only a fool would think we could return to the days of the pioneers where the law was a gun and a quick draw.

We have evolved into a nation with 350 million people who all think the rest of mankind owes them a living. The only protection from the wolves is now the law and that my friend is called government regulation no matter what you call it.

"Someone sure sold you a load of nonsense Ray. "

Ayn Rand?

"In short, what you decry as capitalism is socialism."

So socialism is debt. Hm.

This sure is an interesting tangent from the Net Neutrality argument.

Someone sure sold you a load of nonsense Ray. Capitalism is a system where we encourage everyone to spend, spend, spend and when the money runs out we give them credit. The whole premise of advertisement is to get people to let go of their money.

I'm amazed by how may people hold government innocent in all this, when the state of its corruption is destroying this country.

Without government oversight,...

As if government bureaucrats were angels sent from god. They're protecting big business, I tell you.

I don't think you have a clue what socialism is either. Socialism is a system in which the government owns the businesses like what is happening in Cuba or Venezuela.

We don't suddenly get there overnight. It happens by degrees. Again and again, I ask. Where and when does the government grab for power stop?

A national culture that hates freedom will lose its freedoms. It's sad.

"It's sad."

Posted by Ray

Only if nuclear war on a grand scale occurs, otherwise it's just culling the herd. Your DNA won't do well.

for Ray

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."

- Sinclair Lewis

Sound familiar?

Do you libbies really want the government to be able to control what takes place on the internet?

What a bunch of dumbasses. Do you really believe we're going to have libtards running Congress and the White House FOREVER?

#2 | Posted by rightisright at 2009-10-23 10:27 AM | Reply | Flag:

Do you even know what Net Neutrality is?

It forbids companies from slowing access speed to sites that don't pay money to the ISP's.

You really want everything to be incredibly slow unless it's some big for-profit site? That's what McCain wants...but they sell it to you clowns as 'Government takeover'.


IT'S CLEAR THAT MANY OF YOU ARE FUCKING IGNORANT OF WHAT NET NEUTRALITY AND HAVE NO QUALMS ABOUT SHARING JUST HOW IGNORANT YOU CHOOSE TO BE....

THAT'S RIGHT...'CHOOSE' TO BE. AFTER ALL WHAT OTHER EXCUSE COULD YOU HAVE?

....IT'S NOT LIKE YOU DON'T HAVE THE WORLDS GREATEST RESEARCH TOOL AT YOUR FINGERTIPS.

DO SOME HOMEWORK YOU LAZY STAINS!!

Figures that McCain, who was famous during the campaign for his lack of knowledge about the internet, would be against net neutrality. Figures, too, that knee-jerk righties would buy into the sham that net neutrality is the equivalent of a government takeover. Once again we see that ignorance and stupidity are bliss.

Much of the success of the web has to do with the fact that it is so diverse.

Ray, net neutrality is intended to preserve that diversity.

You mentioned earlier it's not in an ISP's interests to censor the Internet because they might lose customers to another ISP.

The flaw in your reasoning is there is not a very big marketplace for ISPs, particularly for broadband. Some people have just one choice.

This battleground is largely outside the consumer space, but has important implications for us.

If you're against net neutrality, I suppose you're okay with Verizon not completing calls to Qwest numbers because they just don't feel like it?

This is a deeper issue than most of you realize; if net neutrality evolves in the way the Administration hopes, it will give Google an virtual monopoly of the internet, and staggering competitive advantages.

No wonder, then, that Obama's Chief Technology Officer was a former Googliate, and that, after Goldman Sachs, Google execs gave more to Obama's campaign than anyone.

Time for payback, I guess. Buy Google stock. May as well make money along with Obama's other trough feeders.

What kind of nonsense are you mumbling about now RiR?

Net neutrality has absolutely nothing to do with Google or any other search engine. Google is #1 because they are the best at what they do. Microsoft it trying to give them a run for the money but it's not going to be easy. If you were paying for advertisement, who would you choose?

Google is not even in the ISP business. They sell ads. The ones trying to get net neutrality buried is companies like Yahoo, AOL, Ebay, Amazon.com and MSNBC that actually market goods. Google wants to get into the online application business. Why would they want their competitors pulling the rug out from under then by manipulating bandwidth contracts?

Quit being a gerbil and wake up dude.

Net neutrality has absolutely nothing to do with Google or any other search engine.
* * * *

I can ignore everything you said after that. You're ignorant.

Fix that, then we'll talk further.

It's amusing in one respect--the unions are furious about it.
So you have a bunch of billionaire Googliates who supported Obama, up against tens of thousands of union members who supported Obama.
Since I can buy stock in Google, and not the telecommunications unions, I'll go for Google! Down with McCain! Gobama!

There's nothing neutral in the battle between AT&T Inc. and Google Inc. over the future of the Internet.

Google, the powerhouse of Silicon Valley, and AT&T, champion for the old-line phone industry, are marshaling political allies, lobbyists andin AT&T's caselabor unions for a fight over proposed "net neutrality" rules that could affect tens of billions of dollars in investments needed to upgrade the U.S. broadband network, which lags in speed and affordability compared with some countries.
online.wsj.com

If you're against net neutrality, I suppose you're okay with Verizon not completing calls to Qwest numbers because they just don't feel like it?

#149 | Posted by snoofy
* * * *

You mean, like Google did with AT&T's calls?

could affect tens of billions of dollars in investments needed to upgrade the U.S. broadband network, which lags in speed and affordability compared with some countries.

Sounds like you and Ray need to figure out how those Socialist countries have better speed and lower prices than our Capitalist country.

...AT&T, champion for the old-line phone industry...

AT&T hasn't been in the old-line phone business since 1984 when the Dept. of Justice declared them a monopoly. They are now in the voice over IP business, in other words the Internet and have been since 1996. Al Gores internet days.

I don't care where you get your brain washed RiR, but you never get anything straight anymore. Perhaps you should read the article on bong water.

The more I read what the right wing nuts like Glenn Beck have to say about net neutrality the more I realize that what Beck and McCain have in common is a penchant for George Orwell's observation on the news and government in the book 1984. Anyone that can't see McCain's proposed legislation as a trojan horse against freedom in the Internet is a God damned liar and a needs to go work for the Ministry of Truth.

You mean, like Google did with AT&T's calls?

Close... but that gets messy because it blurs the line between VoIP and traditional phone lines.

And it was AT&T/Apple who blocked Google's Voice application on the iPhone. That's not quite the same as blocking a call, but probably close enough. Google forced "Skype Lite" on Android users, which routed Skype VoIP traffic over landlines, generating revenue for T-Mobile that would not otherwise have been subject to capture.

Essentially that whole mess is a compelling argument for net neutrality. Unless for some reason you favor a network which constantly breaks as providers and carriers battle it out at the expense of consumers. Hopefully it won't happen to you when you dial 9-1-1 because a black man is trying to break into his own house.

The real issue the telecoms worry about is VoIP doesn't take much bandwidth, and metering a call at 10c is a minute is already a rapacious rate, when I can get 6c an hour on a phone card from USA to Germany. As we approach wi-fi ubiquity, who needs a traditional phone number (dialtone) anymore? But we will need ISPs, and the telecoms are it, so basically they're just looking at price/service restructuring and trying to game it in their favor. Net neutrality keeps them from fucking us too hard, which is for the best.

This is the same sort of nonsense which saw rise to the Audio CD-R and the Data CD-R. They're the same exact CD-R, except one has a royalty paid to the audio companies since it might be used to make illegal copies of CDs. Market protectionism for those with deep pockets pulling the strings of government... just another form of corporate welfare.

#146 | Posted by COMMONSENSE

You really want everything to be incredibly slow unless it's some big for-profit site? That's what McCain wants...but they sell it to you clowns as 'Government takeover'.
------------------------------
----

I want the Internet to stay libertarian, keep the Government out.

All you liberals pointing out issues with the Internet is just a shell game it doesn't mean the problem can't be solve through the Free Market.

Once the Government gets involved the cost usually goes up, and my access will limited.

Conservatives and Libertarians believe we can solve these problems ourselves or just live with them, we don't need to run to the Government everytime a leaf falls out of tree.

McCain is an unscrupulous ass-munch.

A total whore who will take the most ridiculous positions in order to please his corporate masters.

Step back, old man.

Be Well.

Wow...there sure are a lot of comments on this story!

As a general rule, I think it is bad policy any time a politician reacts out of fear or some murky sense of a "need to do something", which seems to be the case in this instance. While I generally favor less regulation, I think he (and conservatives in general) should wait and see how this is going to play out before making some knee-jerk attempt to respond.

Besides, does he really expect any bill put forward by a Republican to go anywhere in this political climate?

This is pretty funny to read and not dissimilar to those town hall goofballs shouting, "Get your govt off our medicare".

The hysterical rwrs are so obtuse, they don't seem to understand that without the govt, there would be NO INTERNET!.....

I cannot remember which righty it was that told me on here, I don't read your linked articles. LOL

That's ok. Stay stupid.

On development and origin of the internet
www.britannica.com

On which politician had more to do with it's development than any other.

Al Gore had seen what happened with the National Interstate and Defense Highways Act of 1956, which his father introduced as a military bill. It was very powerful. Housing went up, suburban boom happened, everybody became mobile. Al was attuned to the power of networking much more than any of his elective colleagues. His initiatives led directly to the commercialization of the Internet. So he really does deserve credit.

Read more: www.esquire.com

who is Vint Cerf, eh?
LOL

Here is more info on the two bills Gore sponsored which delivered the internet to the rest of us and commericialized it. Including his prior interest in it, dating back to the 70's.

For those who want the truth.
en.wikipedia.org

Now, I'll sit back and watch one of these rwrs use the same lies and misquote to smear Gore as claiming he invented it.

Sounds like you and Ray need to figure out how those Socialist countries have better speed and lower prices than our Capitalist country.
#156 | Posted by snoofy

They come from subsidies at the expense of the poor who can't afford to use it. Corrupt dictators are notorious for building monuments to their greatness. Snoopy needs to figure why socialist countries are always poor.

You mentioned earlier it's not in an ISP's interests to censor the Internet because they might lose customers to another ISP.

The flaw in your reasoning is there is not a very big marketplace for ISPs, particularly for broadband. Some people have just one choice.
#149 | Posted by snoofy

The flaw in your reasoning is that governments have a long sordid history of censorship. It's unheard of that a profit seeking business would censor its customers.

America grew to its heights of power through minumum government and capitalism. Likewise, its fall from power comes through the negation of what made it great. Capitalism is feared in communist countries. Think about that.

Basically, those in power or those who pay more will have better access.
Sounds good to me. I pay good money for my broadband; anything that keeps the peasants from hogging my bandwidth is a good thing.

For those who want the truth.
en.wikipedia.org

Now, I'll sit back and watch one of these rwrs use the same lies and misquote to smear Gore as claiming he invented it.
--------------------------
Hooking a Computer up to a phone line and writting the Frimware and Software so you could communicate through your computer would have happened with or without a government.

All you liberals pointing out issues with the Internet is just a shell game it doesn't mean the problem can't be solve through the Free Market.

Once the Government gets involved the cost usually goes up, and my access will limited.

Conservatives and Libertarians believe we can solve these problems ourselves or just live with them, we don't need to run to the Government everytime a leaf falls out of tree.

#161 | Posted by 90c2cab at 2009-10-26 06:06 AM | Reply | Flag:

Government Involvement?

Are you serious? The Govt has been involved all along.

They passed legislation to keep exclude sales tax from the internet in order to help it grow.

Now they want to pass legislation that prevents the little guy from having access restricted or outright banned.

Sounds good to me. I pay good money for my broadband; anything that keeps the peasants from hogging my bandwidth is a good thing.

#167 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE at 2009-10-26 10:41 AM | Reply | Flag:

How much Zoophilia porn could you possibly need?

How much Zoophilia porn could you possibly need?

#170 | Posted by COMMONSENSE at 2009-10-26 11:51 AM

As much as I want to pay for!!

I should clarify my position; I'm not opposed to net neutrality altogether. I think the FCC should regulate ISPs so that they can't do shit like block sites, or give preferential treatment to others.

But I also have no problem with tiered services where those willing to pay more to get more bandwidth, can. I pay good money to stay above the hordes of cheapskates wanting to slow me down, and want to keep it that way.

Government Involvement?
#169 | Posted by COMMONSENSE

Are you serious? The Govt has been involved all along.

They passed legislation to keep exclude sales tax from the internet in order to help it grow.

Now they want to pass legislation that prevents the little guy from having access restricted or outright banned.

--------------------------
I was talking regulations.

It's unheard of that a profit seeking business would censor its customers.

Every single one of the telecoms and ISP services doing business in China did exactly that, voluntarily. Had they all just told China to f-off this would have never happened and China wouldn't be able to do shit about it, but the whores in Big Business wanted the pie and did what they had to do to compete anyway.

Americans are smart enough the make legislation that prevents this kind of corporate abuse.

You have to remember that we already have net neutrality and competition so far has kept it even, but without legislation to prevent abuse it's just a matter of time before we all get screwed if left to big business. Competition only works until every business does the same thing. Then you have degradation, like the crappy cars America now produces because of corporate collusion or the cheep crap we all accept like lemmings from the big box stores who got rich by once selling quality American goods.

Free enterprise has never been free from abuse. What country are you from anyway, Ray?

But I also have no problem with tiered services where those willing to pay more to get more bandwidth, can. I pay good money to stay above the hordes of cheapskates wanting to slow me down, and want to keep it that way.

We already have that and it has nothing to do with net neutrality laws. It's not about paying for speed it's about restricted access to select sites.

Damn, wake up Live or Die. At least use some of your hard earned bandwidth to research the issue. It's not about how much porn you can download or how fast. It's about who you can get it from and how fast.

Damn, wake up Live or Die. At least use some of your hard earned bandwidth to research the issue. It's not about how much porn you can download or how fast. It's about who you can get it from and how fast.

#174 | Posted by RingMaster at 2009-10-26 12:24 PM

So, network neutrality has nothing to do with charging more for certain types of service? Sure about that?

Free enterprise has never been free from abuse. What country are you from anyway, Ray?
#173 | Posted by RingMaster

What planet do you come from? There is no free enterprise. The scale of government abuse is beyond anything imaginable. And particularly, it is government to which corporations owe their power. There is not an enterprise where government doesn't intervene.

The America of today is not the America envisioned by our Founders. But like the many zombies on this site, you treat it as an innocent. And worse, you expect salvation from government.

This country is on the way to a second rate power. It lost its sense of individualism, liberty, integrity and free enterprise. Government doesn't work. Democracy doesn't work. Regulation doesn't work. It's right there before your eyes, bigger than life and you don't see it. That's because you are part of the problem.

"This country is on the way to a second rate power."

You mention the founding fathers and then mention our loss of power??? Most of the founding fathers didn't even believe in having a standing army.
The world they lived in doesn't exist so it is ridiculous to think that our government should resemble what they envisioned. WEre we to do that our country would look more like a banana republic in S. America than the nation as we know it today.

168

The internet became available to all of us because of two bills sponsored by Gore AND because the US military had already established it's own internet.

Maybe you should use the link provided and do some research.

Then you'd understand how silly it is to pretend we'd have this internet from dial up telephone service and that even then, it would not have been made available to all of us.

"get your government hands off our medicare" eh?

uh, huh? uh, huh?

Government doesn't work. Democracy doesn't work. Regulation doesn't work.

Is Ray some bizarre sort of right-wing anarchist?

Competition only works until every business does the same thing. Then you have degradation, like the crappy cars America now produces because of corporate collusion

Funny flag.

So lack of competition and "corporate collusion" between GM, Ford, Chrysler is what caused Honda and Toyota to claim their share of the US markets? Interesting assessment. I don't think your analysis is correct. The only real monopoly existing today is MicroSoft and of coarse the Federal Government.

WEre we to do that our country would look more like a banana republic in S. America than the nation as we know it today.

#177 | Posted by danni

You need to catch up to the times. This country went from a constitutional republic to a banana republic. They trashed the constitution and the rule of law.

Is Ray some bizarre sort of right-wing anarchist?
#179 | Posted by snoofy

For what is obvious to me, Snoofy doesn't see how badly this country has deteriorated. Netither does Danni.

US auto makers should have thought about WHO was gonna buy their autos after they moved factories and jobs to third world shitholes during times of record profits, so they could pay workers less than a living wage and maximize their profit margins.

I used to drive by GM and Ford plants and the parking lots were filled with the very cars they were making. Then, there were also the ancilary industries that fed parts to those plants and service centers.

Now, not so much.

Maybe go back to 1989 and watch "Roger and Me" and begin to understand what Michael Moore was saying in his first documentary.

Then move on to "The Big One", (1997) in which he attempts to confront other American corporation ceo's about why they followed suit with moving/outsourcing jobs during times of record profits.

Ray,

It's great you finally "woke" up.

Where were you the last 4 decades of republican/neoconservative policies being implemented?

NOW, that a dem is elected and not following repug rule as Clinton did in signing every piece of Contract ON Americans legislation, NOW all of a sudden it dawns on you??

Come on buddy, give it a rest.

Have some faith in America. Just because you were forced to lose faith in a political party that bamboozled you, is no reason to take it out on the best government ever invented.

This always amazes me. How the flag waving patriotic repubs, actually want to dismantle our constitution and govt, while claiming dems are doing it.

My goal is to cut government in half in twenty-five years, to get it down to the size where we can drown it in the bathtub.
Grover Norquist

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED neocons

Not just for Ray, but all the naysayers,

Now step aside, stfu and hope the loyal opposition can fix all the economic and foreign policy disasters your party created.

And begin to honor America, it's constitution and govt of, by, and for the PEOPLE, instead of placing a poltical ideology before it.

Snoofy doesn't see how badly this country has deteriorated. Netither does Danni.

Ray, what I see is that it's been deteriorating from right around the time we cut taxes on the rich. Starting with Nixon, then the wheels really started flying off the wagon with Reagan and Greenspan.

Do you disagree?

Snoofy

I see the deterioration starting after the Civil War with the Progressive movement. It's been accelerating from there irrespective of party or president.

Important dates
Creation of the Federal Reserve 1913.
WWI, WWII and Vietnam War
Nixon took us off us completely off the gold standard 1971.

There is no rule of law anymore. Government can prosecute anyone they want for whatever reason they want.
Financially, we're broke, getting by on debt.

It's great you finally "woke" up.
Now step aside, stfu and hope the loyal opposition can fix all the economic and foreign policy disasters your party created.
#183 | Posted by woke

I woke up during Reagan's first term when I realized that both parties are parties of big government. I haven't voted since. You are still asleep.

No nation is on the gold standard anymore Ray. Are they all as bad off? Or is there something uniquely American about how screwed we are?

I woke up during Reagan's first term when I realized that both parties are parties of big government. I haven't voted since. You are still asleep.

Having spent time in places like Northern Europe and seeing how nice they are, I don't see what's so wrong with socialism or big government. Yes, taxes are high. But there is a high level of service from the government as well. And they have more entrepreneurs per capita than the USA.

Essentially I think the unique failure of American governance is that it is not a parliamentary system. There is no motive to work together or compromise. Just wait until the pendulum comes back your way and it's your turn to be "winner take all."

Our last two Presidents campaigned on bipartisanship. Bush said he was a uniter, not a divider. Didn't work out that way. Obama said as much, and it's not working out that way. The government people want is not an option under our political system.

So while we bicker, corporations line the pockets of Congress and get what they want. There's only two parties in play, so you might as well own them both. Investors call this "hedging your bets" if I'm not mistaken. Our system works much better for them than for us.

#183 | Posted by woke at 2009-10-26 04:25 PM
------------------

Whenever I read your idiotic musings where you yearn for more government to 'Fix" everything it always reminds me of this great quote from Jefferson:

My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government.
-Thomas Jefferson

Jefferson hits the nail on the head......

EH?
.

He said "most" not "all".

It only makes sense, if it was all free access that would be communist!!

LM

"Government can prosecute anyone they want for whatever reason they want."

What? Now you're making stuff up. Laws must be broken in order for a person to be prosecuted.

But now you'll tell me I need to wake up, that I'm blind and uneducated.

Network neutrality (also net neutrality, Internet neutrality) is a principle proposed for residential broadband networks and potentially for all networks. A neutral broadband network is one that is free of restrictions on content, sites, or platforms, on the kinds of equipment that may be attached, and on the modes of communication allowed, as well as one where communication is not unreasonably degraded by other communication streams.[1][2][3]

The principle states that if a given user pays for a certain level of internet access, and another user pays for a given level of access, that the two users should be able to connect to each other at that given rate of access.

Though the term did not enter popular use until several years later, since the early 2000s advocates of net neutrality and associated rules have raised concerns about the ability of broadband providers to use their last mile infrastructure to block Internet applications and content (e.g. websites, services, protocols), particularly those of competitors. In the US particularly, but elsewhere as well, the possibility of regulations designed to mandate the neutrality of the Internet has been subject to fierce debate.

Neutrality proponents claim that telecom companies seek to impose a tiered service model in order to control the pipeline and thereby remove competition, create artificial scarcity, and oblige subscribers to buy their otherwise uncompetitive services.

Many believe net neutrality to be primarily important as a preservation of current freedoms.[4]

Vinton Cerf, co-inventor of the Internet Protocol, Tim Berners-Lee, creator of the web, and many others have spoken out in favor of network neutrality. Robert Kahn, the "father of the internet", has spoken against it. [5]

Opponents of net neutrality characterize its regulations as "a solution in search of a problem", arguing that broadband service providers have no plans to block content or degrade network performance.[6] In spite of this claim, certain Internet service providers (such as Comcast) have intentionally slowed peer-to-peer (P2P) communications.[7] However, P2P has been historically used for media piracy.[citation needed] Still, other companies have acted in contrast to these assertions of hands-off behavior and have begun to use deep packet inspection to discriminate against P2P, FTP and online games, instituting a cell-phone style billing system of overages, free-to-telecom "value added" services, and bundling.[8]

Critics of net neutrality also argue that data discrimination of some kinds, particularly to guarantee quality of service, is not problematic, but is actually highly desirable. Bob Kahn, Internet Protocol's co-inventor, has called the term net neutrality a "slogan" and states that he opposes establishing it. He has warned that "nothing interesting can happen inside the net" if net neutrality strictures become legislation. "If the goal is to encourage people to build new capabilities," Kahn stated, "then the party that takes the lead in building that new capability, is probably only going to have it on their net to start with and it is probably not going to be on anybody else's net." He elaborated on this point, indicating that while he is against the fragmenting of the net, he is OK with step-by-step progress. By keeping the industry proprietary, he explained, "you tend to fragment the net. And anything that will tend to fragment the net I'm opposed to, provided it's not an incremental evolution of a new technology that's happening." [9]

Source

It's obvious....oh, so obvious, now...

J. McCain's efforts against net neutrality are in service of his ultimate mission -- to point more traffic towards his daughter's blog at mccainblogette.com !!!!

How these people pervert the English language.....

it's just reprehensible!

en.wikipedia.org

What? Now you're making stuff up. Laws must be broken in order for a person to be prosecuted.
But now you'll tell me I need to wake up, that I'm blind and uneducated.
#192 | Posted by pragmatist

Like hell I'm making things up. State and federal prosecutors have a 99% conviction rate. Even Martha Stewart was sent to jail on trumped charges. You can never know when you are breaking the law because they are so vague.

I read the stuff they do to get convictions. It's a horror story. You don't read about this stuff in the toady mainstream media. I've been reading about it for years.

You are still asleep.

#186 | POSTED BY RAY AT 2009-10-26 05:03 PM

Am I?
I thought I woke up in 1969 when I saw people paying a terrible price for the greed of giant war/oil corporations.

But, perhaps you are right, Ray. Maybe I don't see this dem potus (or the last dem potus) starting unnecessary wars for profit. Or using misinformation, spite, fear and namecalling to further a preordained agenda like pnac. I don't see this potus failing yet.....and I'm not calling for him to fail, projecting his failure, or insisting it will occur.

Maybe you woke up and your solution was to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Mine is to fix the damage of what's broken, starting with our elections and campaign funding. If the money is taken out of that, via public funding, and lobbyists shooed away from Wash DC, perhaps we can become a true beacon of democracy.

Or, we could just pretend it's already failed and there is no hope.

Your choice, Ray.

No nation is on the gold standard anymore Ray. Are they all as bad off? Or is there something uniquely American about how screwed we are?
#187 | Posted by snoofy

Every nation is on a debt money standard, meaning every dollar is an IOU that doesn't pay interest. It's a massive fraud, a veritable Ponzi Scheme that's starting to unravel.

A gold standard or any commodity money standard would prevent this because the supply is limited to what can be mined. With fiat money, there is no limit to supply.

#189 | POSTED BY 2008ATL AT 2009-10-26 05:38 PM

You never told me how you got my name and address when you posted them on newshounds. Was it from your law enforcement past, or your financial business present?

Having spent time in places like Northern Europe and seeing how nice they are, I don't see what's so wrong with socialism or big government. Yes, taxes are high.
#188 | Posted by snoofy

What you see on the outside tells you nothing abut the state of European finances. The euro is another worthless fiat currency. And Europe is another accident waiting to happen.

Again, socialism is a system of wealth confiscation. It can live a parasitic existence of of what capitalism produces until it destroys the means of production. That's where we are now, living on debt to make up for the destruction of capital markets. It's an illusion of debt.

Or, we could just pretend it's already failed and there is no hope.
Your choice, Ray.
#197 | Posted by woke

I'm not pretending. We're way past the point of no return. You'll find out in the years immediately ahead of us.

All right, Ray, you paint an incredibly bleak picture. What are you doing to protect yourself, save yourself or your family, or fix the problems you see? You appear to see the end of civilization as we know it. Do I misread? Do you figure since you're 68 (judging by a comment you made last night), you'll just declare end of the world and sit back and enjoy it? (That's not as sarcastic as it sounds; it's a real question.)

Then you'd understand how silly it is to pretend we'd have this internet from dial up telephone service and that even then, it would not have been made available to all of us.

90c2cab was right in his 168, woke. It would have happened without the government. It was inevitable. The '80s saw the de-regulation of AT&T which brought in competition in the LD service. This led to the birth of the first coast to coast fiber network made possible by competition (not the government) laid by Sprint (then US Sprint). Then along came the exploding technologies like Frame Relay, ATM (Asynchronous Transfer Mode, not money machines) SONET, DWDM, etc. which gave us the self healing networks and made the fiber carry several orders of magnitude the bandwidth it was originally designed for. This made bandwidth suddenly became dirt cheap. (you are old enough, woke, that you remember 10c/minute LD) What to do with it? Hey, the government has this cool thing called ARPAnet. Let's make it easy for a consumer to use a similiar system. Someone created HTML and the WWW was born.

All this would have happened without the government, woke. There are folks out there smart enough to know how to pass data over phone lines without the Goracle or the DOD. I know. I worked for MCI and Sprint for over 20 years. I was there doing my part to make it happen. I was at work when the first QRSS signal was passed over fiber from the left coast to the eastern one. It was the only time I saw the office manager break out a bottle of scotch in the office and pass shots all around. What was to become the internet backbone had just been born. Little did he know (just as Morse was clueless) what god hath wrought.

It would have happened without the government. It was inevitable.

What to do with it?

Hey, the government has this cool thing called ARPAnet.

All this would have happened without the government, woke.

#203 | POSTED BY GOATMAN AT 2009-10-26 09:13 PM

You know better than me.

And, I'd seriously like to thank you for a true response.

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