Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs
Saturday, October 10, 2009

On the last day of Kent Schaible's life, his parents and pastor intensely prayed over his 32-pound body, which, unbeknown to them, was ravaged by bacterial pneumonia. When the 2-year-old boy finally died at 9:30 p.m. Jan. 24 inside the family's Northeast Philadelphia home, the pastor called a funeral director to take the boy's remains to the Philadelphia Medical Examiner's Office. At no time that day, nor in the week-and-a-half prior, did Herbert and Catherine Schaible seek medical treatment for their son despite his sore throat, congestion, liquid bowel movements, sleeplessness and trouble swallowing, Assistant District Attorney Joanne Pescatore said in court yesterday.

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"Francis Carmen, Catherine Schaible's attorney, said that the couple's decision to forgo medical attention was not due to their religion, but because they thought Kent had a cold."

"He cared for his child and thought his child was getting better," Hoof told reporters.

When asked why he did not call a doctor, he said: "He never said that he would not take the child to a doctor in his statement. He never said that."

From the article.

Also from the article:

"Edwin Lieberman, the assistant medical examiner who did Kent's autopsy, said that he had determined the manner of death to be a homicide because the boy could have been saved with basic medical care.

Bacterial pneumonia "is very treatable," he said, but without care he "seriously" doubted if Kent improved at all, as his parents had told detectives."

So now they are lying about him getting better to cover for the fact that they killed him. They should get even more jail time.

They also said this:
" 'We prayed to God for victory . . . We were praying that he would be raised up, " Detective Stephen Buckley said yesterday, reading from Herbert Schaible's statement."

They prayed to God for victory over a common cold?

These bastards are lying!

So what you are saying is that a kid has the symptoms of a cold for a week and a half and they should be taken to a doctor?
Never mind that they say the symptoms got better, would you take yor kid to the doctor for a cold?

Yes, i have been involved with churches during certain periods of my life and to do pray for people to feel or get better. The parents stated that they don't object to taking their kid to the doctor so where do you get the half-brained idea that they were some part of a cultish church that is dead set against medicine? Do you usually go off half cocked with misconceptions based on your ill conceived perceptions based on hatred of religion or did you just not pay attention to what the article said and just based your oppinion on unfounded bias?

This is a tragedy, no doubt about that, but it is in no way a criminal action on the part of the parents. It was not neglect, is was merely unfortunate.

As a parent myself i can tell you it would not cross my mind to take my daughter to the doctor for a cold in fact i don't like the idea of drugs for every little illness that occurs. There is a definite problem in this country with over medication that is promoting drug resistant strains of sicknesses. That alone would be reason enough to avoid doctors for minor illness. It is easy for a coroner to find a major problem but you cannot condemn the parents for judgment that only becomes clear after the fact.

"These bastards are lying!"

Well it's nice to see that you are able to completely analyze their motives from a few hundred word article. Clairvoyance must be a handy gift.

So what you are saying is that a kid has the symptoms of a cold for a week and a half and they should be taken to a doctor?

I use three days as my general guide but it depends on the symptoms and whether the child is improving or getting worse by the third day. I might call the doctor first day if it is something I don't recognize as "normal". But, if the fever goes above 103 I call and take my kids in immediately. Sometimes waiting one day too long can be fatal. Regardless, praying is not even on my list for treating cold symptoms.

The parents were either negligent or batshit crazy. Either was fatal for the child in this case. So now they better get a good lawyer. I would go for the insanity plea...now THAT would make this an interesting case!

Salamandagator, why don't you look in the mirror while you cast dispersions upon me? Did you not read the article? Apparently not. There isn't a question that these people believe in faith healing. I'll post what you obviously haven't read:


They are members of the First Century Gospel Church, in the Northeast, which believes that the sick can be healed through prayer rather than by medicine, according to statements that the couple gave homicide detectives two days after their son's death.

Open your fucking eyes you tool.

This child was obviously terrificly ill, that's why he died. Fucking Christ on a stick you're an idiot.

There was no mention of a fever, the kid had the shits and a runny nose which can bring the other symptoms. I have never felt that a lingering cold is something to be overly concerned with. I believe that parents get to make that decision. Donnerboy, i do not see anything in the symptoms that the parents saw that would lead you to believe it was not normal.

"There isn't a question that these people believe in faith healing."

Fine, what does that have to do with this case?
Well aside from the attempts to paint the parents as cultists. I mean you could look at the statements from the parents but you probably don't want to bother with anything that does not fit your bigotry.

"Did you not read the article? Apparently not."

This from the guy that could have only gotten through the headline.

"This child was obviously terrificly ill"

So i guess i missed the part where he was having trouble breathing.
Huh, you mean it does not say that?
Well maybe the part where he had one symptom that is not an everyday cold symptom.
Hmmm, i guess it doesn't say that either.

What you are going off of is a statement from a guy that dissected the kid. If they did an preemptive autopsy on you or me I'm sure they would find something we did not know about either.

Stupid mother fuckers.

Jail.

you know...
on second thought.

i am pretty glad these people are too stupid to let their progeny grow up.

These people are serious candidates for the Darwin awards.

They may be some of the first people to get the award that aren't dead.

Not allowing them to further pollute the gene pool is probably not a bad thing.

Well maybe the part where he had one symptom that is not an everyday cold symptom.

It is extremely unlikely that a child with a bacterial pneumonia advanced enough to be fatal would not have had a very high fever for several days running.

Don't take my word for it, ask any pediatrician.

On the last day of Kent Schaible's life, his parents and pastor intensely prayed over his 32-pound body, which, unbeknown to them, was ravaged by bacterial pneumonia.

The parents and their pastor obviously thought the child was sick enough to need divine intervention. Most people don't pray to God to cure the common cold. I'm all for praying for the sick, but it's a shame the Holy Spirit didn't send someone involved a word of knowledge: Seek medical attention now.

1. These people are not righteous enough for Gods intervention. God killed their boy for their sake.

2. Perhaps they should have bulked-up on blood and body of Christ the way a weight-lifter maxes out on carbs and roids.

3. I can understand how some might confuse the function of the church which used to regularly treat the ill, but where in the Bible does it state to abstain from medical treatment?

There was no mention of a fever, the kid had the shits and a runny nose which can bring the other symptoms. I have never felt that a lingering cold is something to be overly concerned with. I believe that parents get to make that decision. Donnerboy, i do not see anything in the symptoms that the parents saw that would lead you to believe it was not normal.
#7 | Posted by salamandagator at 2009-10-09 03:32 PM

A week and a half of no sleep, no drink and liquid bowels is obviously life-threatening for a child, with our without fever. Hate to say you are a bad parent, but apparently this boy would have died under your watch too. 32 lbs! My cat weighs more..

Imo, these faith healing, no medicine kind of "Christians" should be abolished without a second thought.

Stupid mother fuckers.
Jail.
#9 | Posted by Valisk at 2009-10-09 08:16 PM

100 agreed!

The parents and their pastor obviously thought the child was sick enough to need divine intervention. Most people don't pray to God to cure the common cold. I'm all for praying for the sick, but it's a shame the Holy Spirit didn't send someone involved a word of knowledge: Seek medical attention now.
#12 | Posted by Gal_Tuesday at 2009-10-09 09:24 PM

Great insight - they really do "believe" prayer was necessary but unwilling to admit God wasn't the right prescription.

Reminds me of a joke popular among Christians that goes like this:

A flood came and a man had to climb onto the roof of his house. As the waters rose a neighbor in a rowboat appeared, and told him to get in. "No," replied the man on the roof, "the Lord will save me." Then a firefighter appeared in a speedboat. "Climb in!" shouted the firefighter. "No," replied the man on the roof, "The Lord will save me." A helicopter appeared and the pilot shouted that he would lower a rope to the man on the roof. "No," replied the man on the roof, "the Lord will save me." Eventually the man drowned and went to heaven, where he asked God why He hadn't helped him. "I sent a neighbor, a firefighter, and helicopter," said God. "What more do you want?"

Okay, so no one sent a doctor, but no one sent for a doctor either.

RIP, Kent.

"A week and a half of no sleep, no drink and liquid bowels is obviously life-threatening for a child, with our without fever. Hate to say you are a bad parent, but apparently this boy would have died under your watch too. 32 lbs! My cat weighs more..

Imo, these faith healing, no medicine kind of "Christians" should be abolished without a second thought."

We got some real thinkers here.

No sleep?
Uh huh, the kid did not sleep for a week and a half sure.

No drink?
"said that his client did everything in his power to care for his son in the days before he died - feeding him and giving him liquids."

Reading might help

Liquid bowels?
Also known as diarrhea, which to treat you give the kid liquid, just like they did.

32 pounds?
Hey moron, that above average for a 2 year old.

It always amazes me how the bigotry abound when anything resembling religion is present.
I mean you guys could have read the article and come across such gems as

"He cared for his child and thought his child was getting better," Hoof told reporters.

or

"rancis Carmen, Catherine Schaible's attorney, said that the couple's decision to forgo medical attention was not due to their religion, but because they thought Kent had a cold."

or

When asked why he did not call a doctor, he said: "He never said that he would not take the child to a doctor in his statement. He never said that."

But contrary to the statements of the only people who know you villainize the parents as cultists.

I wonder why they even bother to write whole articles anymore, seem no one pays attention anyways.

"It is extremely unlikely that a child with a bacterial pneumonia advanced enough to be fatal would not have had a very high fever for several days running."

Not true
In fact this is what eMedicineHealth has to say.

"When to Seek Medical Care

When to call the doctor

* If you have a fever and cough up yellow, green, or brown sputum, make an appointment with your doctor.

* If you have, shortness of breath, chest pain, or confusion, you should seek emergency care.
"

The symptoms
# Typical pneumonia comes on very quickly.

* Typical pneumonia usually results in a high fever and shaking chills.

* Typical pneumonia usually leads to the production of yellow or brown sputum when coughing.

* There may be chest pain, which is usually worse with breathing or coughing. The chest also may be sore when you touch or press it.

* Typical pneumonia can cause shortness of breath, especially if you have any chronic lung conditions such as asthma or emphysema.

* Because chest pain also can be a sign of other serious medical conditions, do not try to diagnose yourself.

* Older people can have confusion or a change in their mental abilities as a sign of pneumonia or other infection.

Atypical pneumonia has a gradual onset.

* It is called "walking pneumonia."

* Sometimes it follows another illness in the days to weeks before the pneumonia.

* The fever is usually lower, and shaking chills are less likely.

* There may be headache, body aches, and joint pain.

* Coughing may be dry or produce only a little sputum. You may not have any chest pain.

* Abdominal pain may be present.

* There may be other symptoms, such as feeling tired or weak.

Those symptoms were not present according to the parents. They do not match up with Bacterial Pneumonia but do with a common cold. So ask yourself, what cause would the parents have for thinking it was worse beside that it lingered?
So what are you left with? Well i see a few of you pointing to the prayer thing as if it were somehow evidence that it was know to be more serious then they let on. But it becomes abundantly clear that you have no honest perspective on churches, regardless of if they believe in faith healing or not many will pry to relive distress even if it is a cold.

So aside from hatred of all things religious what else do you have against these people? Do you think if they had known it was more dire then all appearances led them to believe that they would not have sought medical help? What reasoning for that conclusion would you have?

The Gator is correct, I was wrong and I stand corrected.

members.medscape.com

"It becomes abundantly clear you have no honest perspective on churches...."

About as close to the bone as it gets. It can be added: No interest in becoming honest, by and large.

"The pastor and their parents obviously thought the child was in need of divine intervention...."

THAT'S the entirety of what's needed to get you condemned socially and legally? That you prayed for someone?

This is a problem, given many Christians pray frequently, some minority almost all of the time.

We're taught that prayer is a good thing, for issues big and small, or just to be in contact with God.

Some days I'm not certain this is really a liberal website. When I read people advocate certain Christians "be abolished", I'm sure of it.

It always amazes me how the bigotry abound when anything resembling religion is present.

And it amazes me how some people are absolutely blind to criminal activities whenever religion is present.

You automatically believe the word of the parents and pastor, people who are untrained medically and in a position to downplay the symptoms present in their child in the interest of covering their own asses.

And some of the things you say about treating a common cold is kind of scary for you kids.

You wouldn't be concerned if your child had a cold for a week? You wouldn't seek a doctor if symptoms didn't improve after 2-3 days after onset?

More than likely this child didn't die out of the blue. At some point along the progression of his illness it was probably abundantly clear that he was in serious trouble. My guess is this is the reason for the criminal charges.

When I read people advocate certain Christians "be abolished", I'm sure of it.

So you're ok with the fact that children have died in this country because the parents refused to seek medical care so they could heal through prayer?

We're taught that prayer is a good thing, for issues big and small, or just to be in contact with God.

#21 | Posted by Zed at 2009-10-10 09:13 AM |

"gawd" did a heck of a job on 9/11.

Headline should read:

Another Child is Murdered by Her Ignorant Parents and Their Church.

THAT'S the entirety of what's needed to get you condemned socially and legally? That you prayed for someone?

No, and you're being intentionally obtuse and dishonest if you think that's what's really going on.

"THAT'S the entirety of what's needed to get you condemned socially and legally? That you prayed for someone? "

No Zed, they aren't being condemned for praying for someone. They are being condemned for substituting superstitious horseshit for medical care. Got any more straw?

This child was obviously terrificly ill, that's why he died. Fucking Christ on a stick you're an idiot.

www.sparkcaster.com

It's hard to say what motivates people but the fact that it was a kid means medicaly you have to be twice as cautious. Well I have heard my oldest has been sick about 2 times her entire life and both times was better in 24 hours or less. Either way I guess we need to wait for the full story to come out in court which is a real shame. Whatever these parents did wrong now after the death of a child they will have to deal with the court system too. I feel a great deal of sympathy for them no matter how stupid they may have been.

"Headline should read:

Another Child is Murdered by Her Ignorant Parents and Their Church."

Or how about:

Death toll from Two Thousand Years of Christianity Continues to Rise.

After a careful, and nauseating, review of salamandergators posts I have concluded that he is legally insane.

One definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over again while expecting different results.

Kids have been murdered by these mythologists for most of human history. They keep praying.
And yet they keep dying.

get a grip people. Seriously.

#29, Good one as well!


So what you are saying is that a kid has the symptoms of a cold for a week and a half and they should be taken to a doctor?
Never mind that they say the symptoms got better, would you take yor kid to the doctor for a cold?

Yes, i have been involved with churches during certain periods of my life and to do pray for people to feel or get better. The parents stated that they don't object to taking their kid to the doctor so where do you get the half-brained idea that they were some part of a cultish church that is dead set against medicine? Do you usually go off half cocked with misconceptions based on your ill conceived perceptions based on hatred of religion or did you just not pay attention to what the article said and just based your oppinion on unfounded bias?

This is a tragedy, no doubt about that, but it is in no way a criminal action on the part of the parents. It was not neglect, is was merely unfortunate.

As a parent myself i can tell you it would not cross my mind to take my daughter to the doctor for a cold in fact i don't like the idea of drugs for every little illness that occurs. There is a definite problem in this country with over medication that is promoting drug resistant strains of sicknesses. That alone would be reason enough to avoid doctors for minor illness. It is easy for a coroner to find a major problem but you cannot condemn the parents for judgment that only becomes clear after the fact.

#3 | Posted by salamandagator at 2009-10-09 02:38 PM | Reply | Flag:

I recall an analyst at the Pentagon in the mid 70's who thought he had the flu and stayed home for three weeks trying to get over it. He died. He was in his late 30's. Perhaps we should have him exhumed and charged with being foolish.

What reasoning for that conclusion would you have?

I am afraid in the same post you answered this question:

they believe in faith healing

Now you're one disengenuous goofball aren't you!

This is a tragedy, no doubt about that, but it is in no way a criminal action on the part of the parents. It was not neglect, is was merely unfortunate.

I just have to shake my head and laugh.

If the kid went to quick stop medical clinic he would be alive today with just a 15 minute checkup and you have the ability to say this is not neglect just an unfortunate accident......LOL!

Your out there, way way out there.

"Now you're one disengenuous goofball aren't you!"

Then again i suppose you could go by the word of the actual people involved rather then jumping to conclusions that are unsupported.

Hey guess what my daughter has had a runny nose since Monday i have not taken her to a doctor am i being negligent? I'd bet you anything that you own parents let you go as long with out medical treatment at some point in your life.

Ask yourselves this, if the reporter had not mention the belonged to a church would you chalk this up to anything more then a possible error in judgment?

Ask yourselves this, if the reporter had not mention the belonged to a church would you chalk this up to anything more then a possible error in judgment?

#35 | Posted by salamandagator

"Error" in judgment?
A CHILD IS FUCKING DEAD BECAUSE OF THESE SHITSTAINS!

They should at the very least get charged with Criminal Negligence-even if a Church HADN'T been involved-and if the Pastor had anything to do with encouraging them to keep the child away from Medical treatment-he should be charged as an accomplice.

Sal:

Have you ever had pnemonia?

I've had it numerous times, just back a few months ago was my latest bout.

It started Monday with the flu. Two days later I came downstairs in the morning and my husband took one look at me and said "turn right around and get dressed, I'm taking you to hospital.

Sure enough, it was pnemonia.

That's after taking one LOOK, at me, not after a week and a half.

I can assure you that the symptoms are far worse than a common cold. I find it difficult to believe these parents would see that.

I believe these parents should be held accountable for neglect.

Salad,

I can see what kind of parent you are and feel for your kids. I hope they don't get anything serious as a medical condition.

I also believe the Pastor should be charged as well.

Especially if it was at his urging that they simply pray over him instead of taking this child to the doctor.

Imo, these faith healing, no medicine kind of "Christians" should be abolished without a second thought.
#13 | Posted by redlightrobot at 2009-10-09 10:38 PM

It's not like I said "wipe them off the map" or to "contain them like cockroaches in a bottle". I mean, Egypt's most preventable export seems terribly morose sometimes. Resigning themselves to life of most uncertain influence regarding what infectious materials the Faither comes into daily contact with seems utterly apathetic. Why not become more acquainted with the subtleties of ground to air targeting systems, and/or learn to fly a Humvee, invent a consumer nightmare or an adult trade, "perhaps teaching of yours the language?"? Islam clearly has the lions share of designer assassination scenario schools, so rather than outsource suicide bombers too we've got to get as many of our Faithers affixed with a new attitude for the children!

Poor, poor innocent boy. This child's death was intentional. The parents intentionally denied medical care to their ailing child and instead intentionally chose to treat his (admitted) illness with prayer. Religifreaks creating their own version of 'hell' right here on earth. Is that what christians believe 'suffer the little children unto me..." means? Pathetic.

"They should at the very least get charged with Criminal Negligence"

Just like any doctor who has misdiagnosed?
Oh i see if it look like a duck and walks like a duck assume it's a zebra.

The thing i don't get is many of you are basing your opinions of symptoms that there is no record of. No i will assume that you are intelligent enough to understand that illness do not always manifest themselves in the same way.

I would be right there with you guys if there was any reasonable evidence that the parent knew it was more serious then a cold but there is not.

Lisa, i too have had pneumonia a few times, including once in college that went on for over a month without treatment because i thought it was a bad cold it wan not until my aunt who was a nurse saw me and thought it was something worse.

According to this, we was "warm to the touch." Meaning, they never even bothered to take his temperature. Jail, definitely. DA: Pa. couple prayed, denied care to dying tot

"Lisa, i too have had pneumonia a few times, including once in college that went on for over a month without treatment because i thought it was a bad cold it wan not until my aunt who was a nurse saw me and thought it was something worse."

If you'd died you'd only have yourself to blame. This is a child whose parents have a legal obligation to err on the side of caution.

.. I would be right there with you guys if there was any reasonable evidence that the parent knew it was more serious then a cold but there is not. ..
#42 | Posted by salamandagator at 2009-10-10 04:17 PM

I kiss you back - make your time!

"If you'd died you'd only have yourself to blame."

The point was that it seemed like a cold, i do not know many who would go to the doctor for a cold.

""They both pretty much said, 'We believe in God for healing. We don't take it ourselves, either,'" Assistant District Attorney Joanne Pescatore said Thursday. She believes the child suffered."

No ,that does not sound like a witch hunt at all.

As for the hot to the touch, wrap a kid in blankets see what happens. I have pulled out the thermometer many times because i thought my daughter might have a fever because she was hot to the touch. I don't know why they did not take his temp but it may well have been that he seemed just a little warm. Either way the parent took time off work and cared for the kid. They did not seem to think it was severe enough to warrant a trip to the doctor. They are the only ones involved that had access the information needed to make a decision. Not everyone out there is a hypochondriac, some people make decisions based on the information at hand. If they are lying about the symptoms the are bad parents, if the symptoms did not meet a reasonable criteria for a visit to doctor then it is merely unfortunate. I do not know, neither do any of you, the only ones that know are the parents why is that so hard for many of you to understand?
Ask yourself, is there a possibility that the symptoms did not appear to be as serious as would warrant a trip to the doctor? Is that possible?
What i come up with is that it is in fact possible and because of that i refuse to make a decision without the necessary information, benefit of the doubt and all. But to each his own, if you want to burn them at the stake without actual knowledge as to what happened, fine.

It usually takes a Woman to tell Me to go to the Doctor/Hospital. Unless I pass out in the hallway LOL then I'll go no sweat.

Larry

"It usually takes a Woman to tell Me to go to the Doctor/Hospital."

As long as it's not the whole "you might want to get yourself checked" thing.

The fever issue is not true with all people. The last two times I had pnemonia, I wasn't running a fever.

Sal, my husband is not a nurse nor is he a doctor but was able to take one look at me and know I had something worse than a common cold.

I am not understanding why you are defending these parents so vehemently.

#47

I remember telling you to get in to see the doctor once!!

Lol

And you listened!!!

"The point was that it seemed like a cold, i do not know many who would go to the doctor for a cold."

As an adult, you are right, but parents have to err on the side of caution.

At my daughter's daycare, if she runs a fever higher than 100.5 she has to go home, even if there are no other symptoms. She can not return until she is 24 hours fever free, and if there is loose b/m, not without a doctors note. Keeps reckless parents honest.

I HAD to Lisa. You told Me to.

"I am not understanding why you are defending these parents so vehemently."

I believe in fairness. Like you said with the fever symptoms can differ greatly. they are the only one to have actual first hand knowledge of what symptoms the boy was exhibiting. I don't think it is fair to crucify them based on what may not have been possible for them to know. I also do not believe in running to the doctor for every little thing. I believe that they should be given the benefit of the doubt until it can be proven that there was more evident the symptoms of a cold. The other reason is because of the anti-religious extremism that was exhibited here, i believe that bigotry is bigotry regardless of it it is a a skin color or a belief system. I am not a particularly religious person but i am bothered at how much hate there is out there if you are, it doesn't matter if you are Buddhist, Muslim or christian. Through the statements of the parents and the lawyer the faith based healing was not a part of their decision, i tend to try to believe someone until they have proven themselves untrustworthy. I also feel for the parents, i do not even want to imagine what they are going through having lost a child.

And aren't you glad you listened, Larry?!

Yes Ma'am

"As an adult, you are right, but parents have to err on the side of caution."

There is such a thing as over protection.

Sal:

First of all, have you read any of my posts??? Lol! I am very spiritual.

I know full well how nasty some can be when they insult Christians,

Secondly, I never ran my children to the doctor every time they had a hang nail which is why my doctor would take my word when I would cal him with their symptoms and would call in meds for them.

If my children complained of a headache....I knew they had an ear infection. If one of my kids was acting whiny...I knew they were coming down with something because that was not their normal behavior.

Parents learn what their childrens normal behavior patterns are. Something should have tipped them off if they were observant parents.

And even a week and a half with a common cold can lead into ear infections with small children.

They should have taken him to a doctor.

"First of all, have you read any of my posts??? Lol! I am very spiritual. "

No disrespect meant, i was just addressing the whole and did not feel like typing exceptions.

"They should have taken him to a doctor."

Like you said, you learned with your children, each child is different. I feel that they were in the best position to make that call. I am sure you know your children s needs better then anyone else, as may have the kid parents. There are tragedies in life, shit happens, hindsight is 20/20 and all the others have a bit of truth to them, just because something could have been prevented does not mean that it would have been the regular course of action.

Until the govt starts giving these people harsh sentences they won't change their behavior. People need to learn prayer can be used in conjunction with modern medicine but should not be used alone. Those who disagree with my opinion are fools.

10 years in Gen Pop in a max security prison will change some minds.

"I am very spiritual."

What does that mean?

Null, kinda like when you smoke Ligt of Jah

ligt = light

They prayed and nothing happened.Wouldn't this be some evidence that they were praying to nothing?Hey maybe there was or is a very complicated plan that they/we can't possibly understand where the death of this poor kid will ultimately prove to be a good thing. Yeah, that's the ticket.

Just be glad they didnt say the reason was they couldn't afford health insurance.

then it would be even uglier..now its the church/state thing which is pretty much political taboo, but healthcare?

Family would be on television 24/7.

Loh

Personally, all the examples of "do i take my kid to the doctor for a runny nose" is a bit hystronic dontcha think?

You guys belittle the point that at some point it would have been obvious if the kid was in dire straits (not the group btw).

I can see the point that you dont sweat the small shit and I'm in total agreement with the overmedication and issues with antibiotic resistant strains of whatever, but at some point there has to be some voice in any parents head that says "maybe I should take him in".

Tho, wonder if they'll blame the priest...trusted figurehead of the church, comforting the worried parents in faith that yes, your child is getting better, I can see it, the prayers are working....keep it up...

(priest) uhm, he's not breathing....fuck...fuck..fuck
...fuck...uhm,....you thought he was getting better right?
(parents)Yes, sure looked like it to me how about you hunny.....
(hunny)GULP...sure, thats exactly what was going on.
(priest)so we're straight?
(parents nodding)Poor guy was looking better right up until the end...oh well.

"sigh"....ugly thoughts

Give darwin his due. Let these imbeciles self select themselves from the gene pool.

Ask yourself, is there a possibility that the symptoms did not appear to be as serious as would warrant a trip to the doctor? Is that possible?
What i come up with is that it is in fact possible and because of that i refuse to make a decision without the necessary information, benefit of the doubt and all. But to each his own, if you want to burn them at the stake without actual knowledge as to what happened, fine.

What a crock of shit.

And yes, sal, you're a piece of shit for defending these people. Religion aside, they allowed their child to die from an easily cured illness.

These people are the sickest of the sick. No jailtime, straight to lethal injection/hanging/stoning/
whatever puts them 6' under.

LM

I bet these idiots also were bitching about "death panels".

It always amazes me how fundamentalists don't seem to understand how God might actually work thru the medical field of doctors, nurses, hospitals, and medicines, ie.....other human beings made in the "image" of God, to HEAL human beings.

If God made everything, were not those people/things also made by him?

God helps those who help themselves.

And their children.

#65 | POSTED BY LOHOCLA AT 2009-10-10 06:42 PM

Just HOW MANY of the 45k Americans who die each year have you seen on tv?

Study links 45,000 U.S. deaths to lack of insurance
Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:11pm EDT
By Susan Heavey

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Nearly 45,000 people die in the United States each year -- one every 12 minutes -- in large part because they lack health insurance and can not get good care, Harvard Medical School researchers found in an analysis released on Thursday.

www.reuters.com

How about the 5k US troops who died for an unnecessary invasion/occupation?

You see any of those people on tv?

Oh, that's right hallichainy didn't want you to see the people who died and became maimed for his war profits....as he changed pentagon rules to no longer allow that when he was DOD under bush43.

Woke,

I'll admit that last little bit was a tad bit of hyperbole on my part, cyinical observation based on what little I've been watching TV lately.

Thank god for DVR's.

Read that article when it came out...This reminded me of a thought I had (was pretty high at the time so it's an odd one).

% total uninsured in the US / deaths among those uninsured (non accidental deaths)
% total insured in the US / deaths (non accidental deaths)

Wonder how close and if so, is it because the thousands of recently uninsured are skewing the numbers?

As for the US troops, I'm on the fence about it for the sole reason that 1, would likely be used for political reasons and 2, whoever airs or discusses it or puts some kind of program about it etc, makes advertising money off of it and to me, both of those reasons are obscene.

So call it a bad decision because of the motive, but it does have at least that much going for it.

Hard to explain it, words cant really describe it but, for me, soldiers who die with honor in combat shouldn't be singled out by the public (those that dont personally know them I mean, like on national TV etc), we have no right to their names.....they belong to the families, friends, and fellow soldiers.

Just my two cents.

Loh

This is another case of negligent homicide.

"This is another case of negligent homicide."

Also another case of applied Christianity.

Loh--

Stephanopolis puts the names up of soldiers who die every week.

Today it was 16 soldiers.

Nancy Grace puts up a name and photo and gives details of the family. 'American Hero'

Mark Levin talks to family members of fallen soldiers on the radio.

There are others for sure.

We should never forget about these brave men and women who serve our country and give the ultimate sacrifice for us.

Also another case of applied Christianity.

#75 | Posted by nullifidian

Wrong Null--they are not applying Christianity.

There is nothing in the Bible to state what these people did to their child.

But you go on your merry way believing what you want to believe.

You are as bad as the parents.

No, Murphy. This was murder by Christianity.

Murphy,

I agree with you, they should be remembered, but they should be rememberd as a whole, not just "who was the latest to die"

That shit's just fucked up.

Loh

LOHOCLA

Thanks for the genuine and civil debate.

For me, it's simply too easy for the 95% of Americans who will never serve and perhaps 99% who will never serve in a war zone, to simply not understand/visualize the sacrifices of our troops. Memorializing them by speaking their names on tv, publishing them in the news, and showing their flag draped coffins is a way of HONORING them.

How does "out of sight, out of mind" honor them?

It's just too easy for Americans to go along with these unnecessary invasions/occupations/wars since not only do so few serve, few are ever bothered to think about or sacrifice anything themselves. This makes it easier for the few who are profiting from these incursions to place our troops in harm's way unnecessarily, based on lies and greed, imho.

Honor the warriors, not the war

It doesn't matter what religion these people are. They didn't even call an ambulance when he stopped breathing. They called a funeral director. That is negligence plain and simple.

As much as I agree that these parents screwed up (and that's putting it more than mildly), to assert "applied Christianity" is just bullshit. I'm not a believer, so I'm not defending the faith, but folks, come on. There are millions and millions (and millions) of Christians who use the medical system. Those who don't represent a tiny fraction of the whole. Asserting otherwise is right up there with asserting that parents who raise their kids as Christians are engaging in child abuse.

It is amazing to me that so many who claim to be open-minded and tolerant have nothing good to say about religionists, esp. Christians, and even bash them en masse (just as certain righties on here bash Muslims en masse). Of course, it's just as likely that many of you are trolling when you do this.

Oh, and as a parent, I can tell you that a week and a half of diarrhea, cold/flu symptoms, etc.--yeah, I'd take the lad to see a doctor. I mean, why not? You're staying home to be with the kid anyway...

Matthew 18:5-6
5 "And whoever receives one such child in My name receives Me;
6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

Sounds like laziness, arrogance and neglect that someone tried to dress in religious vestments, not the Bible.

This was murder by Christianity.

Finally a thread where the insurance company isn't holding the smoking gun.

refreshing

Ever look at the list of Christians who INVENTED branches of science and/or medicine?

Science and their respective founders
Joseph Lister. Antiseptic surgery
Louis Pasteur. Bacteriology
Isaac Newton. Calculus, Dynamics
Johannes Kepler. Celestial Mechanics (Astronomy)
Robert Boyle. Chemistry, Gas dynamics
Georges Cuvier. Comparative Anatomy
Charles Babbage. Computer science
Lord Rayleigh. Dimensional analysis, model analysis
John Ambrose Fleming. Electronics
James Clerk Maxwell. Electrodynamics
Michael Faraday. Electromagnetics, field theory
Lord Kelvin. Energetics
Henri Fabre. Entomology
George Stokes. Fluid Mechanics
Sir William Herschel. Galactic Astronomy
Gregor Mendel. Genetics
Louis Agassiz. Glacial geology, Icthyology
James Simpson. Gynecology
Matthew Maury. Hydrography, Oceanography
Blaise Pascal. Hydrostatistics
William Ramsey. Isotopic chemistry
John Ray. Natural history
Bernard Riemann. Non-Euclidian Geometry
David Brewster. Optical Mineralogy

The inventor of the scientific method was Francis Bacon, who said, "There are two books laid before us to study, to prevent our falling into error; first, the volume of the Scriptures, which reveal the will of God; then the volume of the Creatures, which express His power."

These people ignore this, as do many of you, to their own peril (and unfortunately their precious child's).

Until the govt starts giving these people harsh sentences they won't change their behavior. People need to learn prayer can be used in conjunction with modern medicine but should not be used alone. Those who disagree with my opinion are fools.

#59 | Posted by jackass at 2009-10-10 05:56 PM | Reply |

Your opinion HERE I agree with.

"Ever look at the list of Christians who INVENTED branches of science and/or medicine?"

What specific religious cult they belonged to at the time of their inventions is of no particular importance.

"What specific religious cult they belonged to at the time of their inventions is of no particular importance."

It could be if anyone is assuming that being a Christian means having no sense of science.

It's rather absurd that many folks here assume that all Christians are ignorant, nonscientific fools. And I think that post was meant to counter that idea. But I offered my comment on that already.

until it can be proven that there was more evident the symptoms of a cold.

Main point of evidence: the kid died after a few days.

That should be enough. He died. No one dies in a couple of days ONLY showing signs of a cold. The kid OBVIOUSLY had symptoms of something SERIOUSLY wrong and the parents aren't being truthful. Kids don't have a runny nose and then just fall over dead.

The fact that they called for reinforcements shows that the parents KNEW it was more than a cold. Just as you wouldn't take your kids to the doctor for a cold (prety stupid), you also wouldn't call in your pastor to do the "christian" ju-ju dance over a cold.

And you're actually a bigger piece of shit than they are. If given a time machine the parents would no-doubt make a better decision. You on the other hand remain too stupid to see the obvious. To use this as an example of anti-church' bigotry shows how completely insane you are.

Another Child Dies from Prayer Care
AKA G-d Answers Prayer and Says "No!"

#71 Woke> It always amazes me how fundamentalists don't seem to understand how God might actually work thru the medical field...

Most 'fundamental' Christians DO believing in using medical professionals for care ... in addition to praying about health issues, eating healthy, getting enough rest, etc. (not an "either/or" situation). If the story is correct, these people are a fringe minority.

>If God made everything, were not those people/things also made by him?

Agreed. I feel the same way about accountants, lawyers, tax professionals, etc. They are experts for me/us to use when our own knowledge or training is insufficient.

>God helps those who help themselves.

Often thought to be in the Bible, but actually a saying of Benjamin Franklin's in the Poor Richard's Almanac. Still a useful saying.

"Often thought to be in the Bible, but actually a saying of Benjamin Franklin's in the Poor Richard's Almanac. Still a useful saying."

Actually a much older saying than that, going back to ancient Greece: "The gods help those who help themselves." Religion borrows from religion, liberally.

#93 Pragmatist, thanks for the correction. I knew of that saying only as far back as Papa Franklin... ;^)

Not so much a correction as almost furthering your point. : )

Glad you took it well.

Not all colds are the same. They come in varying degrees of severity. Saying that he had "cold symptoms" doesn't mean that you couldn't tell he was very sick and that his life was possibly in danger. You can bet that was one miserable two year old in the days leading up to his death and that any rational person would have thought to get the kid to a doctor. The kid didn't die from the sniffles despite what his parents apologists are saying..

Woke,

I get the gist of what you say, but can't really agree with most of it.

Part of your opinion indicates that we should honor the fallen by seeing images of flag draped coffins and hearing the names spoken in rememberance, so that we may not forget that there is an unneccessary war going on, that greedy ppl profiting from those excursions, and that real people are dying.

The contradiction resides in the fact that in addition to profits from those excursions, now someone else is profiting from the deaths via ratings...the more people watch, the more ad revenue they generate and thats the rub. After the 50th or so, it's just another name and just another picture of another flag draped coffin.

At least something like the Viet Nam Memorial has some significance, it's something tangible that people can touch, its real...its not just an overpaid talking head reading a prompter or some digital footage of a flag covered casket of what may or may not even hold the remains of who they're naming.

The only thing I've seen come close is when some news show starting putting the pictures of those who died on 9/11 and the beginning of the iraq #2 war.

Honor the warriors is about all I really agree with, but dont single them out just because they died that day.

Yes it's the ultimate sacrifice a soldier can provide, but to imagine flocks of people sitting in front of the tube waiting to hear who died, and then either, respectfully remembering the fallen, ho hum, whats for dinner hunny move on with your day, or immediately jump up to blog about the "Senseless deaths propagated by a corrupt war and blah blah blah".

In the words of Mr. Horse from Ren & Stimpy...


No Sir, I dont like it.

Loh

putting the pictures on a "rolling" wall...thought I should clarify that >:)

Loh

they called in the pastor who helped them pray, had they called a priest, the priest would have taken the kid to the doctor. I would file charges against that irresponsible pastor, he helped to kill the kid!

"Got any more straw...?"

Well, yes---Thank you. Now that I have the floor once again I'll point out that some posters above do call for the abolition of religion and describe the act of prayer as evidence of criminal guilt.

If I've described you then you aren't a liberal. What label you give you is hard to think. But it's something that's comfortable with bigotry and authoritarianism.

"THAT'S the entirety of what's needed to get you condemned socially and legally? That you prayed for someone? "

No Zed, they aren't being condemned for praying for someone. They are being condemned for substituting superstitious horseshit for medical care. Got any more straw?

#27 | Posted by nullifidian

Focus, Zed. Was there *really* "some posters" who condemned them for praying? Or did they them for substituting prayer for proper, 21th century medical attention?

Or did they them=Or did they condemn them

Can we get a fucking edit function around here, Rcade? Sheesh, what is this, 1995 message board technology?

"Was there really....?"

Gumby read all the posts and found at least one that advanced the act of prayer as a sign of criminal guilt.

The logic ran: it if it was serious enough to ask divine intervention concerning then it must have been serious enough for hospital.

Yes, there's no necessary connection between the two statements. Yes, the person holding this view didn't seem to notice.

Yes, I know Gumby's made of rubber. But I've always found him to be reliable.

"The fact they (parents) called for reinforcements proves it wasn't a cold...."

GUMBY also found that one. Not only is prayer evidence of criminal guilt, so is presence of a pastor.

GUMBY points out that diagnosis by observing the behavior of third parties is fraught with pitfalls. But he can be ignored because he hasn't graduated med school yet.

"Gumby read all the posts and found at least one that advanced the act of prayer as a sign of criminal guilt. "

Gumby? WTF? You want your post to be taken seriously and you talk like a clown.

"You talk like a clown...."

GUMBY is very dignified, in a prehensile sort of way. So is POKEY. Together they make quite a team. You should do as well.

Zed thinks he's being profound. Me thinks he's a drama queen.

Maybe ZED just likes pixilation. It's a theory.

GUMBY is very dignified, in a prehensile sort of way.

If his mind
Is prehensile
He'll put down
His pencil
And have
Himself a squat
On the cosmic utensil
Go give it all you got
On the cosmic utensil
Sit and spin until you rot
On the cosmic utensil
He really needs
To squat
On the cosmic utensil

zappa

They need to raid these churches and snatch up the kids just like they did those mormons kids. Every kid in this wacky as hell church is at risk, terror threat red!!

LM

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