Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs
Tuesday, October 06, 2009

The bill created in July by the Senate Committee on Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions includes a government-run insurance plan while the legislation currently before the Senate Finance Committee does not. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid will be forced to meld the two bills into one for the full Senate to consider as early as Oct. 12 -- and faces the difficult task of including a public option of government-managed health insurance that he supports.

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Go Reid Go!

"this is me posting a Faux News article"

Finally you find news you can use. Stick around, you will discover more.

FOXNews' "'Red Eye' Gets More 'Demo' Viewers at 3AM Than CNN Does at 8PM"

newsbusters.org

A Democratic Senate source downplayed any differences, saying that Reid, Baucus and Harkin cooperate well, but that the Finance Committee bill is the only legislation that can pass the Senate.

"President Obama clearly articulated his blueprint in his speech, and everyone knows Finance has the bulk of the bill that reflects that blueprint," the source said. "Everyone, including the White House, knows the Finance bill is the only bill that's paid for and can pass. In short, the White House wants a win, and using the bulk of the Baucus bill is the playbook to get the 'W.' "

thehill.com

Translation: No Public Option, and only idiots like Cork Sarvis would belive such claptrap.

he'll cluster fuck his way through it.

I can live with a public option being rejected. I just want the Senate as a whole to vote up or down on the issue. Cuz I think if a vote does happen, it is a coin toss as to what the result will be.

I sure hope he's right, but I'm not terribly optimistic at the moment.

I won't believe it til it becomes law. These shmucks have lied their asses off too many times. It's time to state. SHOW ME THE MONEY.

Larry

Oh sweet. Now I can finally pick up a crack addiction. Then I can quit my job and be a total loser. Why be responsible when someone else will pick up the tab.

"Oh sweet. Now I can finally pick up a crack addiction. Then I can quit my job and be a total loser. Why be responsible when someone else will pick up the tab"

cool. as for me, i plan on joining the military and going to afghanistan so i can pick up a shrapnel wound in the head, have half of my brain taken out and live as a drooling vegetable on the taxpayer's dime.

Reid: 'We Are Going to Have a Public Option'

*Laugh out Loud*

Yeah.

And you're gonna get re-elected, too!

Shriveled old fuck.

#9...

Trust me. The military weeds out cancers like yourself, before they waste a dime on your kind. Fucking pathetic, little punk ass.

Oh sweet. Now I can finally pick up a crack addiction. Then I can quit my job and be a total loser. Why be responsible when someone else will pick up the tab.
Indeed, we will pick up the tab. We will pick up the tab for your ER visits and eventual prison sentence.

The tab will probably be less for all the rest of us if we could get you into some sort of addiction treatment program. It will be cheaper to treat your crack addiction like a health issue rather than a criminal problem.

But if you do make it to prison, the Constitution says you get free taxpayer-funded health care. So we'll pick up the tab there too.

Now, which would you prefer?

Why be responsible when someone else will pick up the tab.
Do you really think that people have zero motivation, and having a welfare state to fall back on means everybody will strive for that lowest common denominator? You give people too little credit. There will always be people out there working for a living, and there will always be lazy people, that's just life.

Pieces of shit like yourself do not deserve the protection of the military. A pity 3000 rabid rightwingers weren't.
#12 | Posted by ZombieHunter at 2009-10-06 06:55 PM | incinerated on 9/11...

Glad you think it is OK to joke about the wounded coming out of Afghanistan. Another cancer on society? Or just another gutless wonder?

I Offensive flagged Crispee's post #11 not cuz I'm really offended but just cuz I think he is an obnoxious dip. (Please, RCade, get those killfiles up and running.)

#11 | Posted by crispee_oc

Gee, what an internet tough guy!
I'll bet when he flexes his biceps he can break very small rubberbands.

you think it is OK to joke about the wounded coming out of Afghanistan.

I think it is OK to out the exaggerated indignation of dickless poser who has his panties in a bunch over stuff on the internet.

get those killfiles up and running

Tomorrow, killfiles... the next day, killbots. There won't be a day after that.

IN the article it says:
"For Democrats to acquire the 60 votes needed to overcome a Republican filibuster, the final bill must win the support of every Democrat and Independent in the Senate, including Democrats like Sens. Ron Wyden, D-Ore., and Jay Rockefeller, D-W.Va., who on Sunday remained undecided over the finance committee's legislation."

That really isn't true. All the Democrats need is one of two things. 1. for sixty Senators to vote for cloture, all sixty do not then have to actually vote for the final bill. We only need sixty to break the filibuster.
or 2. 51 votes by passing it through reconciliation.

#17...
Laughable coming from someone who says he remembers Johnson as Pres. I guess you are up from your nap Doc?

You don't have to be a tough guy to point out some fucking punk ass, joking about going to Afghanistan so he can come home a veggie. Though I guess you have company from other clowns like Zombie, and H8ter. Who probably find it funny in some wharped way.

BTW.. Doc, did you skip the bath after your nap? Thought you wouldn't be back for a bit longer.

There will always be people out there working for a living, and there will always be lazy people, that's just life.

#13 | Posted by snoofy at 2009-10-06 06:56 PM | Reply | Flag

You're a dreamer. The programs we have now enable people to scam the system. And the people in charge of doling out the money have a vested interest in making sure there is someone to dole it out to. They need a job to, you know.

You're a dreamer.

How many people do you know right now that won't take a job less than what they imagine themselves entitled to?

Seriously. Take a little time and think about it.

I'll bet you'll be surprised when you think about the abuses you know of just in your little world.

Sister, brother, inlaw, friend, friend of a friend.

Think about it.

The way things have been stacking up the past several decades has made otherwise ambitious persons un-ambitious.

The only way to stop this constant rise in Insurance cost is the PUBLIC OPTION. American need to know that in the past 10 years the profits from the Insurance Companies have risen by 350%. Well America how much have your wages gone up in the past 10 years?????

United Health's CEO Stephen Hemsley, earns $464,000.000 A DAY !!!! How much do you earn a day America. This is why the Insurance Companies an your FOX-Republicans are fighting this reform. They don't care about the average American and their health care they just don't. How can these CEO"s wagers be justified?????
IT FUCKING CAN'T AN IT NEEDS TO BE STOPPED!!!!!

Reid is just the left's mouthpiece, whining and crying that "American's want a Public Option". Only the Demos want a public option. A public option won't pass the senate. The trillions we will spend on this healthcare debacle will cost the Demos their power, and bring about a conservative revolution. The left decries Rush Limbaugh's every word, but is unable to fix the economy. Only a nut case can suggest that healthcare will help fix the economy. Spending more money and putting our country in greater debt. The course BHO is on is simply counter intuitive to logic and reasoning in economics. Until our government loosens the reigns on business, and enables business, not stifle production and innovation. We need to reward production not bolster the unproductive elements of our society. Those who fail to pull their own load should fail is society. Nature is survival of the fittest. We need to help those disabled and needy, not the lazy and poor choices so many make in our society. Those that choose drugs and ignorance expecting handouts from the government without working for it, should not reap the benefits those of us who do work, are productive, and make the right choices to rise our families, serve our country, and do the right thing by paying our taxes.

Tomorrow, killfiles... the next day, killbots. There won't be a day after that.

There won't be zombiefiles and zombiebots?

Though I guess you have company from other clowns like Zombie, and H8ter. Who probably find it funny in some wharped way.

Arrgh... I've got a white whale on the line! Easy whith the rigging, mate, I'd like not teh be pulled into the whater.

There won't be zombiefiles and zombiebots?

Uh oh... we're boned.

IT FUCKING CAN'T AN IT NEEDS TO BE STOPPED!!!!!

Shit, I think twisted sister wrote the post-Obama anthem for the GOP.

I think it is OK to out the exaggerated indignation of dickless poser who has his panties in a bunch over stuff on the internet.

#18 | Posted by ZombieHunter at 2009-10-06 07:02 PM

Of course you do. Must be part of the "hunter" your eighth grade buddies gave you. Shouldn't you be playing some video game or doing homework?

United Health's CEO Stephen Hemsley, earns $464,000.000 A DAY !!!!

IOW, almost 170,000,000 per annum.

Do you have link to that, celery?

The only way the cost of health care will ever come down is when no-one has insurance.

MTNEWC19.....Great comments but heard it all an read it all from the Right Wing sites. The fact that you drank the Kool aid doesn't make you right. All of your comments is what is wrong with the FOX-Republican Party today, "I GOT MINE YOU GO GET YOURS".....What about your fellow Americans that are being priced out of the Insurance market an as such the health-care market place, "WHERES YOU HUMANITY YOU DUMB FUCK?????"

There aren't enough Democrats with balls big enough to pull off the nuclear option. It's called the nuclear option because it will blow them right out of their seats at the next mid term.

"Only a nut case can suggest that healthcare will help fix the economy."

Actually there is a NUTCASE who makes some very powerful arguments about why we need to reform healthcare in order to fix the economy.
Only a person uninterested in the truth would ignore the fact that we spend nearly double any other nation per capita for health care and it is still rising, 14% of GDP and growing. To pretend we can ignore that and not pass healthcare reform is just sticking your head under the sand because you place ideology ahead of reality. Ideology is emotionally driven, unfortunately reality is not.

Well, I wouldn't worry. The white-coated props on the While House lawn surly convinced me and millions of others that Obama and Reed are right, and we really should spend our great-grandchildren's wages so we can pay for the health care of ourselves and our parents. Who cares what it costs!?! After all, the government is far better suited to make my decisions than I am. The government has always done exactly what they've promised, and usually under budget. Please sign me up!!!

Shouldn't you be playing some video game or doing homework?

Pissing you off is much more fun...

#36...
Pissing you off is much more fun...

Yeah you really got me there. Of course you showed your true colors as well.

That's if someone named zombiehunter on an adult site is to be taken seriously.

The only way to bring down health care costs is to allow a free market.

When no one is insured the cost of health care will be valued by those consuming it.

Free markets work wonders. It's too damn bad America hasn't tried one in decades.

#21 | Posted by crispee_oc

Wow! You damn near snapped that very small rubberband. Care to give it another flex, Mr. Internet Tough Guy?

"and we really should spend our great-grandchildren's wages so we can pay for the health care of ourselves and our parents."

They will feel much better knowing you spent their inheritance paying a private health insurance company that denied your claims when you became ill.
Your grandchildren will be proud of the fortune that you helped build for "Dollar Bill" McGuire.

""Dollar Bill" has made lots of news with cash-and-stock paydays that have topped $100 million in recent years -- and he's still sitting atop stock options valued at $1.6 billion. McGuire's admiring outside board members -- 10 of whom have become millionaires through the sale of their own appreciated stock in recent years -- have defended his league-leading compensation on grounds that the giant health insurer's stock price has been a superb performer."

www.startribune.com

Reid thought they said, "Pubic Lotion".

Him of the sore groin and all from getting kicked around lately.

"To pretend we can ignore that and not pass healthcare reform is just sticking your head under the sand because you place ideology ahead of reality. Ideology is emotionally driven, unfortunately reality is not."

Maybe you need to look at the ideaology of those in charge of writing this massive bill. Instead of blindly following and hoping it is written and passed.

You do remember the same Dem Senator who pushed through the bi-partisan prescritption bill a few years ago, is the same guy in charge of writing the HC Reform today. Even Obama has criticized that legislation. Why would this bill be any different?

Wow! You damn near snapped that very small rubberband. Care to give it another flex, Mr. Internet Tough Guy?
#39 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis at 2009-10-06 07:29 PM

7:30 and already drunk doc? Nap, bath, bluelight dinner special, get drunk, pass out.

Are you sober enough to explain what a "puling" little whiner is, as opposed to just a little whiner?

GOATMAN.....I am getting tired of doing your research, I told you that back when you an your FOX-Republicans believed by 35% that we found WMD in Iraq, you didn't believe it but it was TRUE!!!

I told you that over 40% of All of FOX-Republicans believes that the World is only 6,000 years an don't believe in EVELUTION. I led you again to the TRUTH, did you find the site I sent you to ????

As to Stephen Hemsley, CEO of United Health, this man earned in the past few years with wages and stock options over 744,232,068.00. Yes Asshole this clown with all his benefits has earned well over $100,000,000. a year. Now take your head out from your Ass an try to do something to stop this madness. Besides just going along with the FOX-Republicans BULLSHIT!!!!!!

RE" startibune.com. Since when did an opinion become actual news? The old saying is still appropriate, opinions are like assholes, everyone has one. I doubt there's much argument that reform is necessary,the question is whether we need to scrap the best health care system in the world so that Obama and Reid can play god with everyone's lives. It's pure stupidity to believe that the government can continue the highest level of medical care available more cheaply than the private sector. For gosh sakes bring the insurance companies back to earth. Open up competition from out-of-state companies. Require coverage for pre-existing conditions. Get rid of the employer-based system and allow individuals to band together to negotiate rates. Pass some tort reform so that doctors aren't ordering billions of dollars of extra tests. There are plenty of things we can do to cut costs and make the system more affordable. But don't think for a second that the government will ever reduce a single cost without cutting something else.

The programs we have now enable people to scam the system. And the people in charge of doling out the money have a vested interest in making sure there is someone to dole it out to. They need a job to, you know.

Employer-provided health insurance scams the worker out of thousands of dollars of income. Our employers negotiate with the insurers; we have no input in the process. We don't even know how much our employer is paying for our coverage. How can a consumer make a rational purchasing decision without price transparency? And should we decline the employer-provided option, we don't get the employer's contribution put back in our paycheck.

If we decline coverage we get back the few bucks we pay, which is not the bulk of the cost. The average amount paid by employers to provide an employee's health insurance is something like $10,000/year.

The insurers know they have the employers by the balls because there's nowhere else to get health insurance.

Employees get suckered into the deal because they don't even know how much their employer pays for their insurance, they can't get that money in wages from their employer if they decline insurance. And Congress sweetens the deal by taking the employee's small insurance contribution from pre-tax dollars. Employees see "my health insurance is only $50/paycheck" but never see the $250/paycheck contribution their employer makes.

Employees save a few bucks at tax-time in return for our employers paying thousands we don't even know about to our health insurance companies.

It's about the exact opposite of a free market, as can be seen simply by looking at the outrageous cost. If you want to "buy" new health insurance you have to find a new job, or settle for one of the other employer-provided options you get to choose... but only once a year during Open Enrollment.

It's so bad, even the variety of socialist approaches seen in the other modern countries have much lower cost.

Celisary.... You go girl! (you are a girl right?)

"You do remember the same Dem Senator who pushed through the bi-partisan prescritption bill a few years ago"

I think you'll have to educate me on the Dem Senator who pushed through the bi-partisan prescription bill. This, I gotta hear.

"Only a nut case can suggest that healthcare will help fix the economy."

Yeah, that would be terrible if we could spend that portion of our GDP on stuff like cars and movie tickets.

I guess the way things are today, with medical bills being the leading cause of personal bankruptcy, that's good for the economy?

CELISARY,

Humanity is part of nature. I am not sympathetic to the poor and weak, I just want to help those that are truly needy, not the unproductive. I am human, and invested in the humane construct. Our society is spending billions on the poor and disabled. We already give more charity than any other nation. We already pay for those who do not pay their bill at these hospitals. Those unable to get healthcare are non-existent. They can all go to the emergency room. There are thousands of programs available to the poor to get healthcare. Those who claim these people are priced out of health insurance are not utilizing the many community outreach programs that provide such support. Only this healthcare legislation is not really about those who need healthcare, it is about control over the rest of us.

The only way the cost of health care will ever come down is when no-one has insurance

AGREED.

That's if someone named zombiehunter on an adult site is to be taken seriously.

You call this an adult site?

You're mixed up in more than one way, my friend.

Celisary.... You go girl! (you are a girl right?)

Men aren't always on the rag

And Snoofy, don't they always tell us about how they fear losing their right to choose their doctors, etc.????
Our right to choose is limited to the list our employers give us from the insurance company plan they choose.
Don't get me wrong, I work for good people and they provide us the best plan the company can afford but the system itself forces them to pay too much and they aren't the ones who created it in the first place.
Then again there are large corporations who only use insurance companies to administer their own self-insurance plans where they have the opportunity to screen potential policy holders through the hiring process, end relationships with potential risks by firing them and may even profit if they charge employees enough for their coverage.

GOATMAN.....I am getting tired of doing your research,.

Newsflash, dear. It's your research. You made the claim. You bear the burden of proof. That's how the world runs -- even for rabid liberals like you.

Per MTNEWC: Only this healthcare legislation is not really about those who need healthcare, it is about control over the rest of us.

Talk about nuts...

This healthcare legislation is firstly and foremostly about providing decent healthcare to the 30-45 million Americans who are currently uninsured. For you, or any rightwing nutcase, to believe that quality non-emergency care is available to everyone is not only plain wrong, but also so wildly misinformed and out of touch with working class reality as to be wholly ignorable

Medical bills are not the primary reason for personal bankruptcy. Credit cards and mortgages are. Medical debts are not even put against one's credit score. They cannot be reported on the major credit bureau reports. One can simply ignore them, if necessary. They are expunged during a bankruptcy, but they are not the cause. Credit services may keep calling, but that can be handled, too. I've worked in many hospitals, and there are plenty of uninsured patients getting all the care of the insured patients. Hospitals are required by law to provide services. The may bill later, but no one is turned away because they can't pay. It's all BS. And no one is driven into bankruptcy simply because they couldn't pay a medical bill. Absolute stupidity.

"Those who claim these people are priced out of health insurance are not utilizing the many community outreach programs that provide such support."

Are your eyes brown? No I don't mean the center, I mean the parts that are supposed to be white???

"I think you'll have to educate me on the Dem Senator who pushed through the bi-partisan prescription bill. This, I gotta hear.'

You need to be educated about Max Baucus and the Medicare Prescritption Drug Bill?

GOATMAN.....Well asshole I unlike you don't post things that I know nothing about. I know what I post is true, I have done my research unlike you FOX-Republicans. You will never hear me say "I DON'T HAVE PROOF BUT I BELIEVE THAT.....", I heard this exact statement today on your Friend Orielly show, claiming that Acorn was responsible for the election of Al Franklin, NO PROOF JUST THROW IT OUT ON THE AIRWAVES AND SEE WHAT STICKS, This is where you Fucks get your NEWS!!!!!!!

Without a public option to join Medicare (or single payer plan), any health reform coming out of this session would surely be named the health insurance corporation revenue enhancement act of 2009. herm

Considering the impossible levels of debt and deficits the feds have accumulated, it's going to be interesting to see where Obama finds money he doesn't have.

Well asshole I unlike you don't post things that I know nothing about.

Then cite your sources. Easy. I don't believe the numbers you are posting. I think you are a rabid liberal liar. Prove me wrong.

PS: Just to save you some embarrassment: Stock options don't count as income.

This is where you Fucks get your NEWS!!!!!!!

Celery, the Fox News deflection is really old. Especially when it has nothing to do with CEO salaries.

Crispee, you call it "bi-partisan, ok but the Senate vote was 54 to 44,
11 Democrats voted in favor and 9 Republicans voted no.
All that was really demonstrated by that vote was that Baucus and the same predictably conservative Democrats who are really DINOs vote with Republicans. The bill was anything but bi-partisan and is a major contributor to runaway health care costs. It was and is a giveaway to BigPharma, now Baucus is working on a big giveaway to BigInsurance.
He is just a sell out and should be removed from his position as chairman of the finance committee.
I would love to see him face a strong candidate in a primary next year.

"How many people do you know right now that won't take a job less than what they imagine themselves entitled to? "

In my regular life, not including people I haven't seen in over 10 years? ONE. Two, if I think back on an old friend. I'm not saying everyone I know is incredibly ambitious, but they work.

"Medical bills are not the primary reason for personal bankruptcy."

So the "50% of bankruptcies are due to medical bills" stat that I've seen in various sources, from different sides of the aisle, is a lie?

And I agree with Danni about Baucus--from what little I've read, he's an ass. And Pelosi and Reid need to go too.

"Considering the impossible levels of debt and deficits the feds have accumulated, it's going to be interesting to see where Obama finds money he doesn't have."

Cutting down medical inflation to below actual inflation would free up a lot, since the government is on the hook for such a large percentage of the insured. Not that that's probable, or even very possible, but I would like to -- at least -- see the government try.

Healthcare is a zero sum game. It is like any effort to achieve 100% success. The effort to achieve a 70% solution is a reasonable cost in resources, to achieve 90% the costs steadily increases, then the last 10% the cost escalate dramatically. So we have 90% of our society covered by insurance, that last 10% is unrealistic. If we talk about 10% of 300 million that would be 30 million. WE can not afford to pay for the 10%, without bankrupting our economy. Nuts would be spending the trillions necessary to reach that goal. Until we deal with the lack of supply in healthcare professional, we will never reduce the increasing costs. Anyone that thinks this legislation will reduce costs and that a government option will cost less than businesses, is nuts. Only a nut would believe congress will get this right.

#65...

Now you can see why some on the right are concerned. Much like the TARP bill where Senators didn't even know the CEO compensations. Some don't want a worthless piece of legsialtion for the sake of having something passed.

Before Reid promises a public option, shouldn't he at least address the shortage of GP's we face today? Or should I say, shouldn't they wait on passing anything until we solve that shortage?

So the "50% of bankruptcies are due to medical bills" stat that I've seen in various sources, from different sides of the aisle, is a lie?

I've seen the stats reported on several threads over time here. I have no doubt that people have unpaid medical bills when filing bankruptcy. I can also think of 8 households I am close to in the last 4 years who have filed bankruptcy. I can assure you that in probably 6 of those cases there were some medical bills unpaid. But in NONE of those cases were the medical bills anywhere near the reason why they were filing bankruptcy. Their uncontrollable spending is what was the cause and a hiccup in their income tipped them over.

Now I have no doubts that many folks have to file bankruptcy and medical bills are the overwhelming reason why. I just think the numbers are being inflated and skewed to push a health care agenda.

Eb: Any basis or cites/sources for your belief, or are you just blowing smoke out your ass again in support of your rightwing "I got mine so fuck yourself" agenda?

"WE can not afford to pay for the 10%, without bankrupting our economy."

That's absolutely false. We would actually save money (and health) in the long run if we made sure everyone in the country had their 'wellness' addressed. Prevention is always much, MUCH cheaper than cure. If we tossed the sick out on the streets without conscience as a matter of policy, we'd save cash, of course. The fact we don't, and won't, screams for wellness.

We would actually save money (and health) in the long run if we made sure everyone in the country had their 'wellness' addressed. Prevention is always much, MUCH cheaper than cure.

I agree with this in theory but I question how this would work in reality.

We both know plenty of people who have access to great healthcare but choose to NOT utilize the preventative care within their benefits. Certainly some of the uninsured and underinsured would utilize the benefits of preventative care if offered to them but I'm not convinced that it would end up being a net savings.

I'm not saying it is a reason to scrap it...just pointing out that I wouldn't expect that to be a net savings.

"shouldn't they wait on passing anything until we solve that shortage?"

Well, gee, yeah....we should wait until we solve EVERY problem before we pass anything. Especially, like, the deficit before we pass any tax cuts...know what I mean?

If it takes some kind of parliamentary maneuver to get a healthcare public option past the healthcare industry's bribery and propaganda then bring it on.

I just found out that our health care insurance premiums are going to cost us $2000 more next year. I haven't been given any data yet on copays, deductibles and out of pocket limits but I wouldn't be surprised if they end up costing us more too. My wife has some health issues and we simply cannot afford to be without medical insurance so we'll just have to find the money from somewhere which will degrade our quality of life quite badly. And next year if they do the same? Eventually we just won't be able to afford it any more, like millions of others before us.

I'd really like an alternative place to go for health care but under the present setup we'd run straight into the pre-existing conditions roadblock. So a public option is fine with me for the very same reasons it is not fine with the healthcare industry. They wouldn't be able to hold us hostage to whatever they want to charge us.

We can't afford it--taxes, costs and ther is nothing in the bills to affect it.

The public option is not going to pass.

And if it does--the Dems should bend over and kiss their jobs good-bye.

And it will be rolled back with the Repubs back in charge.

Since this is such a crucial plan and desperate to have it in place because all hell is going in a hand basket.

It won't take effect until 2013--because Obama wants to run for a second term and doesn't want this POS hangin over his changes.

Why should the HC be destroyed for 12 million people?

"Healthcare is a zero sum game."

Actually, healthcare is a cost that society accepts for the gain of civility. If I am expected to accept the raw fact that my life is expendable then every other life is also expendable. Healthcare can't be a privelege if you want to be able to live safely in your country. Look at the countries with the WORST healthcare systems, what do you see.....death, murder, devaluation of human life.
Healthcare has been called a right, I don't think that is an appropriate term, it really is an indicator of the value a nation places on life.
Isn't it funny that the one major wealthy industrialized nation that doesn't have some kind of universal health care also has the highest murder rate???? Obviously, the problem is we don't value life very highly. Is it an accident that we involve ourselves in so many wars???? Healthcare and our propensity to involve ourselves in unnecessary wars are related and profit is involved in both too.

"And if it does--the Dems should bend over and kiss their jobs good-bye."

Obviously, you haven't checked the poll numbers.
In truth, even the Max Baucuses are being forced to come around to the truth, only a public option will do anything to reduce costs. America is slowly waking up, I think the Republicans need to find another Qualude like Reagan if they want to screw the country any more.

Any basis or cites/sources for your belief, or are you just blowing smoke out your ass again in support of your rightwing "I got mine so fuck yourself" agenda?

www.john-goodman-blog.com

meganmcardle.theatlantic.com

www.alabamapolicy.org

my point is that if we have a public option and it successfully covers virtually all Americans who want it, we won't get a dip in our bankruptcy rates.

At least to a certain extent, the bankruptcy issue is being propped up to further a health care agenda.

"I agree with this in theory but I question how this would work in reality."

Even if it addressed the few who would like health care but don't/won't seek it due to possible affordability, that would be a net gain.

"We both know plenty of people who have access to great healthcare but choose to NOT utilize the preventative care within their benefits."

Good point. We could offer $1000 per citizen who requested, and some wouldn't request.

"Certainly some of the uninsured and underinsured would utilize the benefits of preventative care if offered to them but I'm not convinced that it would end up being a net savings."

After sitting on health committees for the better part of two decades, forgive me if I disagree.

"I'm not saying it is a reason to scrap it...just pointing out that I wouldn't expect that to be a net savings."

Let's try it for a decade, then decide...okay?

I understand why the right-wingers rail against socialism, from an ideological point of view. I can't understand why they defend our current health care system.

Their objections to socialism can't change the fact that other modern nations get just as good health care for less money.

We have a system so bad, even socialism does better.

Could a more scathing indictment of our health care system be made?

"my point is that if we have a public option and it successfully covers virtually all Americans who want it, we won't get a dip in our bankruptcy rates. "

Eb, all due respect, the fact countries that cover all their populace, where bankruptcy for medical reasons is virtually unheard of, flies in the fact of your theory.

Well, gee, yeah....we should wait until we solve EVERY problem before we pass anything. Especially, like, the deficit before we pass any tax cuts...know what I mean?

#75 | Posted by Danforth at 2009-10-06 09:11 PM |

I see sarcasm. But nothing addressing the shortage of doctors. I don't believe I said the shortage of GP's as being EVERY problem. Although I do notice you downplay the situation. But one would think suddenly giving 40 million access might create a problem... Know what I mean, Vern?

Their objections to socialism can't change the fact that other modern nations get just as good health care for less money.

Where will the cost savings come from? Yesterday spud said that government health care will create jobs (which I believe since government is very ineffecient). So with the increased number of people involved, I'm confused how it will cost less -- unless of course quality of care also goes down.

Can someone explain?

Certainly some of the uninsured and underinsured would utilize the benefits of preventative care if offered to them but I'm not convinced that it would end up being a net savings.

What would convince you?

You should not have any doubts about this. It's been demonstrated time and time again.

Essentially your question boils down to "Why do preventative maintenance?" and I'm sure you know the answer.

my point is that if we have a public option and it successfully covers virtually all Americans who want it, we won't get a dip in our bankruptcy rates. "

Eb, all due respect, the fact countries that cover all their populace, where bankruptcy for medical reasons is virtually unheard of, flies in the fact of your theory.

#83 | Posted by Danforth

I think you guys are talking about two different worlds

Isn't Eb talking about the remaining people who would not chose to go with a public option? They would still be facing the same healthcare caused bankruptcy rates, where you , Dan, are talking about places where most everyone has universal single payer?

I'll tell you this though, that those who eventually go bankrupt will be kicking themselves that they didn't sign on to the public option sooner.

"my point is that if we have a public option and it successfully covers virtually all Americans who want it, we won't get a dip in our bankruptcy rates."

But what if it resulted in a drop in the death rates???

I think saving money is the secondary goal of health care reform. It is important but it is not the primary goal.

"Can someone explain?"

Sure. Let's say, scenario A, things stay the same. Health care costs grow at 4X the rate of actual inflation. We're fucked, since we can't afford to continue paying, considering we have wage-based Medicare taxes, which haven't been raised while medical inflation has increased 131%.

Now, scenario B, where the public option -- or some type of similar counterpoint -- only raises prices 3% a year, instead of 13%. Wouldn't private plans suddenly experience something they never had, i.e., downward pressure? If we actually got medical inflation to equal actual inflation, or (next to impossible), trail actual inflation, we'd save billions, not to mention saving America.

The two biggest problems facing this next generation are medical inflation, and printing money like it's going out of style.

"I'll tell you this though, that those who eventually go bankrupt will be kicking themselves that they didn't sign on to the public option sooner."

Maybe I'm crazy, but that seems to underscore my theory.

"But what if it resulted in a drop in the death rates???
I think saving money is the secondary goal of health care reform. It is important but it is not the primary goal."

I wish that was the argument to sell it, but I'm afraid that's not it. If you were trying to convince liberals, maybe.

What would convince you?

You should not have any doubts about this. It's been demonstrated time and time again.

Essentially your question boils down to "Why do preventative maintenance?" and I'm sure you know the answer.

#86 | Posted by snoofy at 2009-10-06 09:40 PM |

Would SCHIP be a good example of operating without a net savings?

Sure. Let's say, scenario A, things stay the same. Health care costs grow at 4X the rate of actual inflation. We're fucked, since we can't afford to continue paying, considering we have wage-based Medicare taxes, which haven't been raised while medical inflation has increased 131%.

"Let's say" = "If"

Health care cannot continue to grow at 4x the rate of annual inflation. You pointed out the reason why. We would not be able to afford it. If we couldn't afford it, medical cared facilities would go out of business. Do you think they would allow that to happen?

Now, scenario B, where the public option -- or some type of similar counterpoint -- only raises prices 3% a year

Is this a guaranteed sure thing?

"I see sarcasm. But nothing addressing the shortage of doctors."

America has a long and wonderful history of meeting its challenges. I have no reason to believe this would be any different.

"Maybe I'm crazy, but that seems to underscore my theory."

Yeah, but they still won't believe you.

I think saving money is the secondary goal of health care reform. It is important but it is not the primary goal.

This point of view is where Wall Street and the right wing start to freak out. They begin to worry when making money isn't the primary goal of business.

Capitalism can only offer the reward of money; the work done to achieve wealth yields both the entrepreneur's and society's reward. It's a system that really struggles with delivering health care to a nation. Socialism is more cost-effective. It's probably because we're dealing with the whole nation that socialism can better incent the desired outcomes. There are some efficiencies which can be imposed from the top down. Some health care examples: a single electronic medical records system, or removing "pre-existing condition" exclusions would eliminate a bunch of clerical work. Clerical work which is more about keeping insurance companies profitable than keeping Americans healthy.

Just like public schools, there's no reason there can't be private competition. I might even support health care "vouchers" if it will bring you goons onboard.

THE PROBLEM
The current economic recovery may not yet be good news for Americans looking to keep or gain back their health insurance coverage. Researchers warn that the threat of becoming or remaining uninsured is substantial, even when the economy is improving.

New research conducted by Cornell University researchers John Cawley and Kosali Simon, funded by the Economic Research Initiative on the Uninsured (ERIU) at the University of Michigan, shows that the economy's effect on coverage is best measured by looking at unemployment rates, which continue to increase well after a recession ends. The most recent recession ended in November 2001, but unemployment continued to rise through June 2003. The economic downturn led to more than one million Americans losing coverage during the recession, and the economy has yet to make up for these losses more than two years into the recovery.

Nearly 70 percent of insured Americans get their coverage through employers. Traditionally, unemployment is a lagging indicator of recession, with employment gains typically taking months or even years to recover to pre-recession levels. Because a net loss of jobs can continue well after a recession ends, those relying on coverage through the workplace remain at risk. The public sector helps some low income groups who lose coverage, but shrinking state budgets and narrow mandates limit the reach of such programs, especially for men.

www.rwjf-eriu.org

"unless of course quality of care also goes down.

Can someone explain?"

Admittedly we have a conundrum which has been brought up by many opponents of healthcare reform.
If we start insuring and providing care for the millions of uninsured then our level of care may suffer. We could be forced to wait in line for care.
My God, do you ever really listen to your own objections????
You might have to wait longer????
As opposed to a family having no access to healthcare services at all????
Are we that self involved, that self serving?
If that is what is America, it's a sad day for America.
We live in a country where affluent people worry that they might have to wait in line if other Americans get an opportunity to receive basic health care. That really is the argument; "why should I have to wait in line just to save your life."
Religious conservatives love to pretend America is God's favorite country. I'm pretty sure God changed his mind after watching the healthcare debate.

"Health care cannot continue to grow at 4x the rate of annual inflation. You pointed out the reason why. We would not be able to afford it. If we couldn't afford it, medical cared facilities would go out of business. Do you think they would allow that to happen?"

Where have you been the last decade? Millions have been thrown off the insured rolls, but the increases in premiums have more than made up for the difference, so the insurance company profits have increased to four times what they used to be. What is it about the Theory of Elasticity I need to explain?

"Is this a guaranteed sure thing?"

Absolutely not. If we don't also address other fundamental problems, like Amercans' shitty attitude toward their own responsibility for their own health, we're fucked.

THE FACTS
Recession has a domino effect on health care coverage. During a recession, many lose coverage when they lose their job. Those who remain employed may also lose coverage as employers drop health insurance offerings or shift more costs directly to workers. Full-time jobs also give way to part-time and temporary jobs that don't include health insurance. And while a drop in income makes some eligible for public coverage, state budget pressures force cuts in public sector programs.

Job loss can quickly do away with workers' health insurance coverage. During the 2001 recession the unemployment rate rose from 4.2 to 5.6 percent, and an estimated 1,009,000 Americans lost health insurance coverage because of economic trends. The unemployment rate continued rising after the recession ended. As of August 2003, only an estimated 137,000 Americans gained coverage - a net loss of 870,000 covered Americans.

Overall trends mask important differences for men, women and children. Coverage losses during the recession were much greater for men than for women and children, and men have been less likely to gain coverage during the recovery period. The unemployment effect on coverage is particularly strong for men because government programs do not provide them with the same safety net available to women and children.

www.rwjf-eriu.org

"Yeah, but they still won't believe you."

Friggin story of my life. No one thanks the guy who points out the emperor has no clothes, or the first guy to point out we're taking on water.

Crispee what is your point?

"Are we that self involved, that self serving?"

That was a rhetorical question, right?

Bring Out Yer Dead!!!!

#98 -- then Danni, you are saying that I should be willing to be decrease the quality of my health care so that another person's can increase?

How is this not socialism?

Should I do the same with my food? My cars? My home? My pay? (oops, already do that)

Friggin story of my life. No one thanks the guy who points out the emperor has no clothes, or the first guy to point out we're taking on water.
#101 | Posted by Danforth

I'm a long time card carrying member of that club.

And a blast at parties.

Friggin story of my life. No one thanks the guy who points out the emperor has no clothes, or the first guy to point out we're taking on water.
#101 | Posted by Danforth

I'm a long time card carrying member of that club.

And a blast at parties.

#105 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine

Are you two done flattering yourselves?

"I'm a long time card carrying member of that club. And a blast at parties."

So no one believes you, either. Ain't it a bitch?

"Are you two done flattering yourselves?"

Good God, no. I've been on here four years...have I ever stopped flattering myself, even once?


FOXNews' "'Red Eye' Gets More 'Demo' Viewers at 3AM Than CNN Does at 8PM"

newsbusters.org

#2 | Posted by KBM at 2009-10-06 01:32 PM | Reply | Flag:

This is the site's actual tagline;

"Exposing & Combating Liberal Media Bias"

Nope...no bias there!

Let me guess......WorldNetDaily is credible as well too?

"then Danni, you are saying that I should be willing to be decrease the quality of my health care so that another person's can increase?"

No, not really. What I am saying is that the availability to healthcare systems should not necessarily be controlled by income.

Are you saying that you have more of a right to life saving services than someone who is poor????
Are you saying that if you can't afford the service the, oh well, I guess you die?????

Are you two done flattering yourselves?
#106 | Posted by nullifidian

You missed my sarcasm about my party popularity?

Dinner party, political party...

"No one thanks the guy who points out the emperor has no clothes"

Some of them do, as they take off their clothes. It becomes obvious that nakedness is the new "dressed for success."

Are you saying that you have more of a right to life saving services than someone who is poor????

I have the same rights as everyone else.

However, I am not obfuscating, I know you mean "means". If I have the means to better goods and services than those with less money, then I should be able to buy them if I want, just as those who make more money than me have the rights to better services and goods than I if they can afford them.

Do you think congress has the right to better health care than they want you to have? If we are going to level the playing field, let's level it -- then we have something to talk about. I'll be damned if I am going to smile and eat the shit that congress feeds me when they are unwilling to eat the same shit.

And knowing you, danni, I don't think you think they deserve better, either. When the Declaration of Independence states that all men are created equal, this did include congress, didn't it?

It becomes obvious that nakedness is the new "dressed for success."

Oooh, just think how many "successful" people are logged on right now!

The legislative branch's health care should absolutely be provided within the public option, without a doubt. Not going to f'ing happen though. How many of them put their kids through public schools again?

"Do you think congress has the right to better health care than they want you to have? If we are going to level the playing field, let's level it -- then we have something to talk about."

Here is something we agree on. I would fully support an attempt to force Congress to accept the same healthcare system that they enact for the rest of us, in fact, I think they should be required to accept it as their own.

Time to sleep. 6:00 comes too soon. I will be awake to fight and annoy another day.

I don't find you annoying, Danni. You're going to have to try harder. *grin*

G'night

Time to sleep. 6:00 comes too soon. I will be awake to fight and annoy another day.

#117 | Posted by danni

Don't go. Check your time stamp, you've got at least another hour. The daily show hasn't even come on yet.

Please do.. Fuck the Repukes.

The legislative branch's health care should absolutely be provided within the public option, without a doubt. Not going to f'ing happen though. How many of them put their kids through public schools again?

Public schools... cry.

This is why I think the German Option will make most Americans happy. There's a basic plan for everyone, and there's a premium market in which government workers and high earners can participate.

Medical bills are not the primary reason for personal bankruptcy. Credit cards and mortgages are. Medical debts are not even put against one's credit score. They cannot be reported on the major credit bureau reports. One can simply ignore them, if necessary. They are expunged during a bankruptcy, but they are not the cause. Credit services may keep calling, but that can be handled, too. I've worked in many hospitals, and there are plenty of uninsured patients getting all the care of the insured patients. Hospitals are required by law to provide services. The may bill later, but no one is turned away because they can't pay. It's all BS. And no one is driven into bankruptcy simply because they couldn't pay a medical bill. Absolute stupidity.

#57 | Posted by SpokaneJim at 2009-10-06 07:50 PM | Reply |

Your wrong. Medical bills are in fact the primary reason, and they can be reported to all major credit agencies, and can ruin your credit score all the same.

Stupidity? You're pissing in the wind without even so much as a backstop. I mean really?

"Medical bills are not the primary reason for personal bankruptcy."

The stupid is strong with this one.

"This year, an estimated 1.5 million Americans will declare bankruptcy. Many people may chalk up that misfortune to overspending or a lavish lifestyle, but a new study suggests that more than 60 percent of people who go bankrupt are actually capsized by medical bills."

www.cnn.com

Without a public option to join Medicare (or single payer plan), any health reform coming out of this session would surely be named the health insurance corporation revenue enhancement act of 2009. herm

#61 | Posted by herm at 2009-10-06 08:09 PM | Reply |

^
|
|
|
|

This.

Its pretty fucking amazing the rallying against the "public option" when the flipside is unspeakably fucking scary. Doubling down on stupid.

This is why I think the German Option will make most Americans happy. There's a basic plan for everyone, and there's a premium market in which government workers and high earners can participate.

#121 | Posted by snoofy at 2009-10-06 11:00 PM | Reply |

Me too, but this would make entirely too much sense.

And the health insurance industry has become such a monster, that at this point mortally wounding it is pretty much required before they could ever accept the limited notion of making money only screwing over the rich and famous.

To bring them down to the level they operate in Germany would give them far too much time to tilt the pendelum back in they're direction thru glad handing politicians as time goes on.

"I'm not sure that it is correct to say that medical problems were the direct cause of all of these bankruptcies," he says. "In most of these cases, it's going to be medical expenses and other things, other debt that is accumulating."

You're cherry picking your quotes from the article. Many of those people were so sick they lost their job.

Oh and by the way, We are not going to have a public option.

#123 | Posted by Danforth at 2009-10-06 11:06 PM | Reply | Flag:

Did you read your own study? They "randomly sampled" 2,314 bankruptcy filers and only interviewed 1,000. So, depending how thorough you like your surveys to be, they either had a sample size of 0.2% or 0.1% of the total bankruptcy filers in 2007.

The best part of the "study" is that anyone with over $5,000 in medical bills was determined to have filed bankruptcy BECAUSE of their medical bills. Have you ever looked at a bankruptcy filing? A bill for $5,000 would be at the bottom of the list of unsecured creditors.

Its pretty fucking amazing the rallying against the "public option" when the flipside is unspeakably fucking scary.

Except the "flipside" is the situation most Americans are in currently.

And most are perfectly happy with it.

Leftist shit really needs to work on its crisis fabrication techniques if it wishes to use them as a vehicle to impose its ideology on America.

They can start by being honest that this latest manufactured policy initiative has nothing to do with "health care".

Some people will believe anything if it is repeated long enough. That is JAK's approach.

Quote, ...most are perfectly happy with it.

Who is most people? Do you have a locker full of rats like Tommy Lee had in MIB2?

Cinnamon-Ringmaster asks:

Who is most people?

The people who are polled regarding such matters.

That's how you quantify public opinion.

I'll put it another way:

If this was something the American people really wanted, we wouldn't be sitting here talking about it in October after Chocolate Carter decreed that The Issue Shall be Resolved Before the August Recess.

The neocons destroyed the economy, the dollar and the US reputation as a world power, and now somebody says that the Dems cannot fix the economy. Get a life!

Many of those people were so sick they lost their job.

Lose your job and you lose affordable health insurance too, which is where the whole problem starts.

Health care is heavily subsidized by your employer. Only once you lose your job and start paying COBRA do you become aware of the full cost. Each employee has about a $10,000 subsidy on their health insurance premiums paid by their employer each year. (I believe that average includes family coverage.)

Not surprisingly, it's hard to come up with an extra $10,000 a year for health insurance when you're so sick you can't work.

Our system has the effect of kicking people while they're down. I think that's why the right wing likes it so much. They obviously can't favor the status quo for economic reasons, as it's been amply demonstrated that socialized systems offer equivalent care at lower cost.

How many people reading this even know how much their total monthly premium is? Americans are not participants in our health insurance market, but we (more specifically our paychecks) are the goods being sold by our employers to insurance companies.

I'd like a public option please.

The neocons destroyed the economy, the dollar and the US reputation as a world power, and now somebody says that the Dems cannot fix the economy. Get a life!

#132 | Posted by nelsonfjobim at 2009-10-07 12:55 AM | Reply | Flag: The Ford threw a rod, so he thinks the used Yugo has to be better

I'd like a public option please.

Sorry, dude.

Go peddle your superior skill set in the exploding European job market.

Your daughter might even learn the proper way to pin a hijab upon herself!!

You can't go wrong.

Lose your job and you lose affordable health insurance too

Not really.

You can buy individual plans relatively cheap.

Could be even cheaper if we deregulated the industry enough to shop over state lines.

Plus your employer-provided health insurance is a component of your salary. If you're concerened about the affordability of you insurance, ask you employer to drop you and reduce your salary.

The you can go shop for your own plan.

Can't do that?

Why not?

Health Care Reform Now!

"Did you read your own study? They "randomly sampled" 2,314 bankruptcy filers and only interviewed 1,000. So, depending how thorough you like your surveys to be, they either had a sample size of 0.2% or 0.1% of the total bankruptcy filers in 2007."

Only idiots believe you have to sample 100%. A group of 1,000 is larger than many surveys.

yipee free health care i will be learning the words and singing the obama song.

Cinnamon-Ringmaster? Is that a racist term Jak Se Mao?

Figures. After reading your other posts terms like 'Chocolate Carter' and statements like "Your daughter might even learn the proper way to pin a hijab upon herself!!." I think you are a fucking racist.

You are barking up the wrong tree. I am whiter then you.

You can buy individual plans relatively cheap.

Name one Jak with the foot in mouth.

With statements like this, Jak can hardly be considered a scholar either.

You can't be denied by an employer plan. On your own they will deny you for almost any pre-existing condition. Jak didn't mention that. Having been locked up for mental problems a few times I can't get covered by anybody on my own.

You are barking up the wrong tree. I am whiter then you.

#139 | Posted by RingMaster

Ringmaster Jackson, the King of Pop.

I sure hope Jak isn't all talk. He'll be providing a great service and furthering his cause when he shares that list of cheap providers.

The Ford threw a rod, so he thinks the used Yugo has to be better

FF flag.

What would you rather drive a Ford with a blown engine, or a used Yugo that got you there?

I'm leaning toward the one that runs.

"Only idiots believe you have to sample 100%"

True, which is why I never said you had to. There is another group of idiots who thinks that a survey of 0.1% generalizes to the population. You're included.

You still haven't addressed the fact that anyone with $5,000 in medical bills in their "study" was deemed to have filed bankruptcy because of medical bills. It's probably easier if you just ignore that.

I sure hope Jak isn't all talk. He'll be providing a great service and furthering his cause when he shares that list of cheap providers.

#143 | Posted by TedBaxter

Will the cheap providers accept people like myself with pre-exisiting conditions?

No, Jack, and they won't take my wife's either.

Although hers seem to be more mundane than yours.

Ringmaster Jackson, the King of Pop.

The almighty wisgod, king of cracks.

But that was pretty funny. Maybe we should call you WG Fonebone.

"There is another group of idiots who thinks that a survey of 0.1% generalizes to the population. You're included."

Political polls often survey less. It's meant as a sampling, and if the 1,000 are chosen using methods to guarantee diversity, they're usually very representative. That's also why there is such a thing as a sampling error.

"Public opinion polls would have less value in a democracy if the public -- the very people whose views are represented by the polls-- didn't have confidence in the results. This confidence does not come easily. The process of polling is often mysterious, particularly to those who don't see how the views of 1,000 people can represent those of hundreds of millions."
media.gallup.com

So, according to Gallup, it seems YOU'RE the idiot.

"You still haven't addressed the fact that anyone with $5,000 in medical bills in their "study" was deemed to have filed bankruptcy because of medical bills."

They have to pick a threshold. And the average was much higher: " On average, medically bankrupt families had $17,943 in out-of-pocket expenses, including $26,971 for those who lacked insurance and $17,749 who had insurance at some point."

Maybe we should call you WG Fonebone.

#148 | Posted by RingMaster

And maybe we should call you FrankF2.5's comedy apprentice.

"Political polls often survey less."

And they're often inaccurate.

"They have to pick a threshold."

And what is the rationale for choosing just $5,000? Most people owe more than that on their car. Does that mean that if they file bankruptcy it's because of their car loan?

And the average was much higher:

Which could have been drastically increased by filers with legitimately high medical bills. Without seeing all of the sample data, the point stands that $5,000 is too low.

Health Insurance Industry Ranks #86 when it comes to profit margins

1.bp.blogspot.com

WellPoint's profits in 2008 amounted to 5.14 percent.

The profit margin for Microsoft was 24.93.

The computer industry has higher profit margins than the Health Insurance industry, but has a lower inflation rate.

What role does the state and federal government have with the computer industry? Very little

What role does the state and federal government have with the health insurance industry? The government has their hands all over this industry.

It's not lack of government that is driving up medical inflation, it the opposite.

Cinnamon-Ringmaster? Is that a racist term Jak Se Mao?

Certainly not.

But it is rather apt, don't you think?

I think you are a fucking racist.

Well I think you're a fucking tool.

Now gimme a hug.

Jak explain to me what people with pre-existing conditions are supposed to do to get pvt insurance if not through their employer or a public option? You can't come up with an answer because we need a public option.

Here is something we agree on. I would fully support an attempt to force Congress to accept the same healthcare system that they enact for the rest of us, in fact, I think they should be required to accept it as their own.

#116 | Posted by danni at 2009-10-06 10:29 PM

Wasn't that proposed by republicans, and labeled grandstanding?

Not a rhetorical question; I think I remember that happening, but am not sure.

Here is something we agree on. I would fully support an attempt to force Congress to accept the same healthcare system that they enact for the rest of us, in fact, I think they should be required to accept it as their own.

#116 | Posted by danni at 2009-10-06 10:29 PM

I think that if Congress was getting the exact same plan as the rest of us that the opposition to health care would be greatly diminished.

Without that, the Health Care reform is a non-starter with a great number of people.

Corky will pretend as if they're getting the same plan as us, but everyone including him knows that's a lie.

Jak explain to me what people with pre-existing conditions are supposed to do to get pvt insurance if not through their employer or a public option?

They shouldn't.

They should die.

In a gutter.

In the rain.

Alone.

"They should die.

In a gutter.

In the rain.

Alone."

Jacque's being sarcastic, but that's the Republican plan in a nutshell.

Libs offered to open up the same VA, Medicare, Fed Employee health care type plans to those who can't get health care now, but Rethugs would have none of it.

All the Congressional plans are, however, based on the same premise of buying insurance thru a large pool, but 101 has these aspirations to serve in Congress.

As sort of a mix between James Traficant and Joe Wilson, one supposes.

#158 | Posted by nullifidian at 2009-10-07 11:20 AM | Reply | Flag: Hasn't read H.R. 2520 or H.R. 3400

All the Congressional plans are, however, based on the same premise of buying insurance thru a large pool, but 101 has these aspirations to serve in Congress.

#159 | Posted by Corky at 2009-10-07 11:22 AM | Reply

Which means absolutely nothing, and does absolutely nothing to prove that we'll be getting the same exact plan as congress. But you already know that.

#159 + #161

If their coverage is effectively the same as the public option then there should be no objection to it being made exactly the same. Why fight to maintain the abiguity? Unless it really isn't the same.

All I keep hearing from juvenile Dem's is "we won, we can do what we want"... then pas the damn bill with a public option already. Let's see what happens afterwards in the next election.

Or is the delay because your guys are skurd?

If their coverage is effectively the same as the public option then there should be no objection to it being made exactly the same. Why fight to maintain the abiguity? Unless it really isn't the same.

#162 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2009-10-07 12:20 PM | Reply

Bingo.
I imagine that a great number of "anti-reformers" like me would be much more willing to listen if what they were pushing on us was the same thing they'd be getting.

I keep asking, how is it that our employees get the Caddy coverage and we get the K-Car coverage?

101-
re: "I keep asking, how is it that our employees get the Caddy coverage and we get the K-Car coverage?"

Ask Randy Neugebauer, though he doesn't seem to have a coherent answer.

What is WRONG with having a public option choice?
I mean, I would drop my insurance today and take the public option right now!

The medicaid comunity are the only ones who NEVER have to pay a dime! great coverage!

the difference between the computer field and the health care field, is that microsoft hasn't had laws passed against them to HAVE TO SELL YOU microsoft windows even if you dont have money,

and, they don't have lawuyers to sue you everytime you get the blue screen of death...

so naturally their profits will be sky high, lawyers don't get any of it.

in response to:
"WE can not afford to pay for the 10%, without bankrupting our economy."

Non-sequiter.

We cannot afford the war without bankrupting the economy either.
So when did that ever stop the war machine?

Look, 1/4 of what we spent in Iraq wpould have bought the lowest deductible blue cross for every man woman and child in USA (even illegals)

so we cant affor health care but we can afford 400% times healthcare for war?

LOL u 2 fun knee.

just print the money, they already do it.

Except the "flipside" is the situation most Americans are in currently.

And most are perfectly happy with it.

Leftist shit really needs to work on its crisis fabrication techniques if it wishes to use them as a vehicle to impose its ideology on America.

They can start by being honest that this latest manufactured policy initiative has nothing to do with "health care".

#129 | Posted by Jak_Se_Mao at 2009-10-06 11:56 PM | Reply |

The flipside is that we'll be forced to accept the flaming pile of shit the insurances companies are throwing at us.

And the idea most are perfect happy with the current situation rings hollow to me. I haven't been to the doctor in 15 years, and I pay almost nothing out of my own pocket. At this point in my life whats not to like?

Dentistry however I have used, and problems have been numerous.

And I know alot of people who actually use they're medical care and are fed up with this shit. Sick of paying a fortune just to have the privalege of being denied coverage.

Seriously stop denying reality, or go find the fuck out whats really going on.

All I keep hearing from juvenile Dem's is "we won, we can do what we want"... then pas the damn bill with a public option already. Let's see what happens afterwards in the next election.

Or is the delay because your guys are skurd?

#163 | Posted by Dont_TreadonMe at 2009-10-07 01:14 PM | Reply |

Read a fucking newspaper maybe?

re: "then pas the damn bill with a public option already."

Yeah. That's kind of difficult to argue against or defend, isn't it?

Democrats have the majority, even the mythical 60 votes. If they won't deliver, then why should anyone go to bat for them ever again?

You can buy individual plans relatively cheap.

#136 | Posted by Jak_Se_Mao at 2009-10-07 01:33 AM | Reply |

Only true if you have no medical history, and are young with no pre-existing conditions.

Seriously stop denying reality, or go find the fuck out whats really going on.

#169 | Posted by KnightHawk at 2009-10-07 02:55 PM | Reply

Says the guy who hasn't used his, but has "heard".

"What is WRONG with having a public option choice?
I mean, I would drop my insurance today and take the public option right now!"

How does the fact that you would use it make a case for the public option?

You serious?

People vote for the best plans and I would vote for public otion because it is the best plan.

I think we should have that option because it is the only option that you don't have to pay for anything at all including drugs.

The ILLEGAL ALIENS have it and they never pay a dime, but they won't let us have it

what is wrong with this picture?

It is not fair for some people to pay 400 dollars a month for meds and others to have health and not pay anything.

Government should average everythig out so we all pay the same and all get free coverage.

That is GOVERNMENTS job to absorb the risks in high risk and share the pain equally and make everyone equally covered. No private inurer can do this, because the ones with serious preconditions are KICKED OUT for profit motives.

For this reason alone we should remove all private options for SKIMMING the fat.

Big imsurance ought to be allowed to go bankrupt without bailouts.

Regarding "congress will have better health care than we have"

I disagree. I already HAVE ____(major insurance) cross minimal deductible. It is NOT the best plan.

Medicaid public option would be WAY better. Really.

My son gets appendicitis, Bill 18,000 dollars. We end up paying part of snesthesia, part of surgeon fee part of hospital fee and deductible, and some lab follow fees and visti to surgen 180 after surgery.
we paid 4800 out of 18,000 on the BEST INSURANCE SUPPOSEDLY.

Ok, the illegal alien's kid who had appendicitis came in this weak paid NO consult fee, no hospital fee no lab fee and no followup fee. AND HE GOT FREE DRUGS, PAIN MEDS AND ANTIBIOTICS

HE DIDNT PAY A DIME!
I PID 4800 dollars!

WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE?
I want the public option!!!

If you are a middle income family provider, say you make 50k a year, you wont get anything from the this so called "healthcare reform". You won't qualify. You make too much money. Nearly 90% of all assistance is meant for the poor and low income earners. Don't think that you will benefit from this legislation. Simply look at Veterans care, if you make more than 40k, you can't get any assistance. You make too much money. The average high school graduate, or associate degree earner make more than 40K. You wish that insurance will save you from expensive hospital bill such as your example. Only they don't tell you the the public option will come with strings. You get progressive benefits depending on income. You get less benefits the more you make. The public option is for the emergency cases and preventative care, which will tie your behavior to premiums. Can't smoke, can't drink, and can't be overweight. Government will be in every aspect of your life once we all migrate to the public option which will happen because the public option will have a bottomless pit for subsidies to more and more people, and the costs for the program will continue to rise, as does the spending and taxing. The Demos think this will be a good entitlement. The only good entitlement is no entitlement. Demos just want hand outs, when what America wants are jobs, and government to enable business, not hinder our economy.

Residents Get Chance At Stimulus Money
Stimulus Money Available For Low-Income, Homeless Detroit Residents
POSTED: Tuesday, October 6, 2009
UPDATED: 8:05 am EDT October 7, 2009
DETROIT -- Detroit's homeless and low-income residents have another opportunity for a chance at millions of stimulus dollars.
The money is available to help low-income residents from becoming homeless and homeless residents to find housing.
Thousands of people lined up Tuesday.
Some people in line falsely believed they were registering for $3,000 stimulus checks from the Obama Administration.
City officials told Local 4 that Detroit was granted $15 million to help residents pay bills and their rent or find temporary housing for the homeless.

Application Guidelines
To qualify, a person must have been a resident of Detroit for more than six months, must be homeless or facing eviction and must be able to maintain housing after receiving assistance.
Also, a resident must make 50 percent less than the median area income, which would be less than $24,850 for single Detroit residents and less than $35,500 for a family of four.
No mortgage assistance will be available through this program.
Once applications are reviewed, only applicants eligible for funding assistance will receive notification from a service provider.

We give money. But we don't enable. We allow them to take from the rich, and give to the poor. Only the more we give them the less they care. They need to be enabled, given jobs where they can earn their keep, build their lives, not take in handouts.

Most Excellent...

MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

(translation)...

"Eat it Republicans, Insurance Co's., and
Corporate Shills!"

o.k., o.k.,

I was out of line.

"Eat it all those who without
forethought, or without examination,
or because of greedy motives,
immediately dismissed or debased
the public option"...

there, that's better.

Face it people, "more options is
a good thing". I'm sure the
private insurance industry will
suddenly become more competitive with
the government offered options...

it's not like they don't have
profit margin to spare...and then some.

p.s. I sure wish this "public option thing"
would spread to Auto Insurance. Lord knows
I pay far too much there too.

"I think we should have that option because it is the only option that you don't have to pay for anything at all including drugs."

I see. So the more that is being given away, the more we should support the idea.

Your statement that you "don't have to pay for anything" is laughable considering who will be paying for the public option in the first place.

Welll that is exactly the point sir.
Now I pay for them AND me

after the option we all pay the same for everybody.
The government SHOULD be the great equalizer, totally covering the 5000 dollar a day aids patients as well as the healthy young teenager , all the same.

The government is the only one big enough to even it all out so everyone can afford it
And the reason they could afford it is it is free!
The taxes we all pay is distributed as necessary. that is how it should be

1. remove all lawsuits, if large errors are done just remove doctors licenses instead until they go back to school
2. Everyone gets free health care and can go to the /ER at any time, before being seen a provider triages them and if it isnt emergent they get booted to the street. Like they should be if they are there for just free tylenol tabs
3. No one no matter how sick or stupid gets denied care even if they huff gasoline.
4. Mental health lockdown units for 2 week vacations for the trouble maker alcoholics who keep walking in front of cars

get the pirannha lawyers out of health care.

We neeed a public option open to everyone.
We already HAVE a public option for the poor.
It is called medicaid and it is given to the illegals.

That is what I want, that is the greatest insurance in the health system, they pay NOTHING and the visit the ER's daily for the slightest sniffle.
Once we get the lawyers sent to siberia we can tell them at the front desk that they should go to the clinic in the morning.

and today we know how
reports are out that the three house bills and the baucas bill...which will be changed BEHIND CLOSED DOORS from the senate committee result by DODD and RIED and Baucas...they will be joined with the three house bills which include government option and the figures given to the CBO that thier report yesterday was based on will be completely irelavant and untrue.

and the result?
bend over taxpayers because you are about to get fucked like the govt has NEVER fucked you over before

I think we should have that option because it is the only option that you don't have to pay for anything at all including drugs."

this comment would be funny if not so sad and tragic to the future of this once great country.
sounds just like the worthless people just after the 'ascension' of the messiah when they were recorded saying shit like...I wont have to worry about paying for things..and shit like that.
unfuckingbelievable that so called intelligent people have the attitude of this poster.

Both Medicare and the public options have premiums.... for those that seem to have missed that.

Concerning:."I wont have to worry about paying for things..and shit like that.
unfuckingbelievable that so called intelligent people have the attitude of this poster"

So... you work for an insurance company, do you?

You just called all the CANADIANS and SWISS and NORWEGIANS stupid.

You realize you called whole countries and nations worthless and unintelligent because they dont pay anything for health care? Because they expect free medical care (And have it?)

Lets see you dig yourself out of that hole.

LOL

Oh, wait, you are an attorney, right?

LOL

I havent missed that... been paying in to medicare for years and years even though leftists here dont believe I should be able to actually use any of it.

and those premiums are about to skyrocket thus pushing government run health care on all of us

another day closer to 11.02.0ten

Yes, I expect, out of FAIRNESS, FREE MEDICAL CARE AND MEDICINES. There is no other fair way.

Otherwise the POOR and the AIDS and the HOMOSEXUALS and the ILLEGALS wont get treated the same unless they are rich.
Unbelievable that you are as selfish as you are.
Must have voted for Cheney as a write in candidate.

CBO says that baucas bill WILL INCLUDE illegals.

so libs.,.tell us now about joe wilson??????

speaking of cbo
baucas was having a fit over thier report about it being deficit nuetral while at the same time baucas said NOTHING about the fact that what dems submitted the cbo was incomplete and had no 'legistative language'..

KEY WORD for the FUCKIn of america...coming soon to a congress near you

"CBO says that baucas bill WILL INCLUDE illegals."

Whoa! This is comedy, right?

not from what I heard on tv this morning...

may have to wait for more conformation but I definitely read that scrolled along the bottom of the screen this morning..
I am certain that anything like that will be talked about more if true...even on cnn

I love the Right.
Can always count on them to turn on the
"Disinformation spigot full blast".

Let's just wait and see what comes out of
committee first, before we scream, "Liberal
muslim socialist pinko commie.......YET AGAIN!"

I mean do you conservatives actually think
that dems and liberal dems want to cover illegal
aliens that DO NOT pay their fair share of taxes?

HELL, I don't even want to pay for Republicans that
don't pay their fair share of taxes...you know the
ones with all of those high paid lawyers and offshore bank accounts.

o.k., o.k., now rant and rave and repackage what
I said until its totally unrecognizable...

I was worried that the Public Option would fail.
But now that Harry Reid said it will succeed, I can stop worrying. Now I KNOW it will fail.

"I mean do you conservatives actually think
that dems and liberal dems want to cover illegal
aliens that DO NOT pay their fair share of taxes?"

Did you happen to see the percentage of hispanics who vote democrat? Not only do they want them covered, they want them legalzied so they can vote.

"not from what I heard on tv this morning..."

Gee, which channel would AFKBL2 be watching in the am????

That same screen probably also said death panels will be part of health care plan.

What if we had a system where illegals could get legal docs. to stay here if they turned in their employers for hiring illegals????

Do Republicans really want to end illegal immigration or do they just really want something to complain about???

The right is scared shitless of Harry Reid.

The right is scared shitless of Harry Reid.

#199 | Posted by NoGov4Me at 2009-10-08 03:21 PM

Of course they are...

Seeing as Harry is the man, did you look at the link I pasted yesterday? I think it was you who asked if any repub pres had any plans for HC Reform.

Harry Reid can kiss my conservative ASS!

There is no denying that the current system is broken; there are millions uninsured, costs are escalating at an alarming rate, etc.

But is ramming through a POS legislation that will be impossible to undo the answer? Can we have FULL disclosure of the process and PUBLIC scrutiny prior to B.O. and the looney left signing off? Can we talk about real tort reform and deregulation as a way to cut costs? Can we all agree that the government will fuck this up like they have everything else?

Libs, I agree that this is important, even critical, but could we please do it right instead of trying to earn Brownie points for just doing something?

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