What an ass. But You like YOUR Government health care just fine don'tcha John Ensign hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. What a louse

Larry

"John Ensign spills the beans"

somebody give this man a mop.

somebody give this man a mop.

#2 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine

Yeah-give it to him-in the face...over and over-until it comes up bloody.

For Republicans like Ensign, health care is the ultimate product - one people can't live without and they'll pay anything to get it. We are the only industrialized nation that continues to value financial profits more than human lives.

so

The uninsured could choose to buy the government-run plan or private insurance (and the poor would qualify for an expanded Medicaid program). Those who ignore the new law and go without insurance would face fines.

---------------

Fuck the non-wealthy.

All i needed to know.

And you supporters of the Republican party wonder why we think you're so fucking stupid?!?!?

#6 | Posted by Shawn at 2009-10-01 04:49 PM | Reply | Flag: Doesn't Understand Who Pays the Bills of the Uninsured Currently

#8 Flag: Doesn't understand sarcasm.

While this doesn't belong here, I'll say it anyways.

Where were all you clowns who are now whining about the President taking a day to go campaign for America to get the Olympics when Bush was taking RECORD amounts of vacation time??.....and after starting two wars no less???

Well, I guess he did give up golf in his last year in office to show his sacrifice.

The GOP has become THE EVERYMAN FOR HIMSELF PARTY.
That is until one of them becomes sick or goes broke.

Check that. THE EVERY WHITE MAN FOR HIMSELF PARTY.

Check that. THE EVERY SOUTHERN WHITE MAN FOR HIMSELF PARTY.

Translation: It is popular with the PEOPLE...It is NOT popular with the HMOs.

Why is this fucktard still in office?
Affair with his close friend's wife who was a staffer in his office?
Pulled strings to get him a job?
A morally bankrupt hypocrite....

Why is this fucktard still in office?
Affair with his close friend's wife who was a staffer in his office?
Pulled strings to get him a job?
A morally bankrupt hypocrite....

#15 | Posted by smeg

He's a Republican.

Here is the basic problem with virtually everyone who wants or buys health insurance...
The purchaser realizes that he/she cannot afford to pay for necessary medical treatments out of their own pocket, so they conclude that if they get insurance, they will only have to pay a fraction of the costs and the insurance company will pay the rest.
That's all well and good however, how does the insurance company cover the imbalance between the premiums collected from this person and the claims paid out on that person?
Remember, they are not printing or picking the money off a big tree in the yard to cover the imbalance and they certainly aren't able to operate on a negative balance sheet.
So, how do the insurance companies remain viable?
Okay, so if the multitudes gravitate to a public option, and they pay in less than the claims paid out for them, where does the Gummit get the money to keep the program viable?
...Hmmmm....
I suppose the Gummit has 3 options.
A) They could just borrow more money from China or,
B) They could ration care or,
C) Both

Gosh, maybe this IS a liberal blog.....it's been hard to tell on most of the threads i've been on......there is a group of rabid rw trolleyboys who post inanity, insults, namecalling and ad hominem attacks on every thread I've seen on DR....

but i'm guessing if i wait long enough, supper break will end and they will show up here soon, eh?

LOL

#18

Woke,

Did you get yer wanker waxed by the wonkers today?

Been there done that...did not get my T-shirt!

Don't let em get to you! It was apparently just your turn in the barrel.

1. how does the insurance company cover the imbalance between the premiums collected from this person and the claims paid out on that person?
2. Remember, they are not printing or picking the money off a big tree in the yard to cover the imbalance and they certainly aren't able to operate on a negative balance sheet.
3. So, how do the insurance companies remain viable?
4. Okay, so if the multitudes gravitate to a public option, and they pay in less than the claims paid out for them, where does the Gummit get the money to keep the program viable?

#17 | POSTED BY LIBERTARIAN_GI AT 2009-10-01 06:51 PM

1. Uh, not everyone gets sick? DUH

2. Show us ONE hmo or healthcare/pharma corp that doesn't post an astronomical profit margin

3. Uh, the usa is the ONLY industrialized nation without a public option.......a. why have these companies not gone under already and b. why are they choosing to do business with the PEOPLE of these other countries????????

4. Public healthcare, like the VA, medicaid and medicare cut 30% overhead and profit OUT of the loop from the beginning. Combine that with computerizing records and ending most fraud thereby and you have an answer IF you would ONLY open your mind beyond what a group of multimillionaires are telling you to believe...

Donnerboy

From what i can tell, the group I'm talking about wax each other's wankers in a frenzied CIRCLE JERK of no FACTS< no substance, no logic, and nothing on topic....

and don't worry about me.....I'm 60, retired after working 40 years, vietnam vet and have spent more time dealing with the less educated than most people....I was a special ed teacher for 30 years

LOL

I just feel it's a shame to have a liberal site infested with a group of right wing circle jerks who aren't interested in honest debate and prefer fouling every thread with juvenile bullshit....

eh?

woke,

of course we are infested! But, to me this is how we sharpen our debating skills. WE have to have THEM to practice with. But, remember this is a blog not a debate. And THEY are like sharks when they smell blood they swarm you. If you survive the Swarm if Horde attack then you will be fine!

But, be careful what you tell them about yourself. Everything you say can and will be used against you in the court of the DR!

#20 | Posted by woke

Ahhh, but Medicare and Medicaid collects money from ALL taxpayers.
Perhaps the Gummit needs to collect money from ALL tax payers to cover the cost of a Public Option for the poor and uninsured, too.
How are the folks who already have insurance gonna feel about paying for someone else's insurance? Consider that no one has a right to another persons labor or money.
And if they do, are they competing on a level playing field with their "competitors"?
What would the courts think of such a skewed set of rules?

Aside from that, I thought the argument was that if people utilized preventative care, the cost of catastrophic care would go down.
How does a person get $100 worth of preventative care for a fraction of that out of their own pocket?
If you say they don't use as much preventative care in a year as they pay in a year, why not just pay cash and save the difference?

BTW, I don't talk to multimillionaires about this stuff. I simply apply business 101...no one gives you something for nothing.

But, be careful what you tell them about yourself.

woke has already told us all we need to know about him.

Everything you say can and will be used against you in the court of the DR!

I'm sure he already knows. I can feel his pain. LOL

#21 | Posted by woke

For the record, 99% of all my posts are on topic and presented in respectful, debate format.
A large majority of my posts go unaddressed.

"Perhaps the Gummit needs to collect money from ALL tax payers to cover the cost of a Public Option for the poor and uninsured, too.
How are the folks who already have insurance gonna feel about paying for someone else's insurance? Consider that no one has a right to another persons labor or money."

I don't know if you realize it, but that's the argument for universal single payer.

A large majority of my posts go unaddressed.

#25 | POSTED BY LIBERTARIAN_GI AT 2009-10-01 07:16 PM

mine too libertarian, at least the substance of them, however, i have attracted a following of trolleyboys (my term for them) and ignoring is not my strong suit.....

I have never suffered ad hominem attacks from you to my knowledge.....and I hope i have never attacked you personally......
if so, you have my sincere apology....sometimes it's difficult to tell the wheat from the chaff.....when under attack.

however.....what is wrong with taxes??

You have no problem with police/fire/highways/bridges/
FDIC

i presume??

form a more perfect UNION=collectively bargain

promote the general WELFARE=healthcare for ALL Americans

For the record, 99% of all my posts are on topic and presented in respectful, debate format.
A large majority of my posts go unaddressed.

#25 | Posted by libertarian_gi

It seems there is an art to getting a response from the Pubes...and it does not involve respect or actual information...

And there it is...the end game.
What ever happened to the promise of choice and respect for the American capitalist system?
Please don't tell me that Bam and the Dems are just saying that to get it passed and plan to go back on their word in the end and put the competition out of business.
That would be dishonest.
Bam and the Dems wouldn't be dishonest with the American people, would they?

I'm not afraid of sharing my info, though i've noticed none of the trolleyboys step up to doing so also, poor lil fellas....skeered of their own shadows, i guess.....

60 yr old
retired special ed teacher (hence my penchant for educating trolls)
vietnam vet
father of 5
grandfather of 7
own my own home and 3 autos
love yard work and honest debate and ncaa sports
have been blogging on ThinkProgress, Newshounds and a couple other blogs for 5 yrs
consider myself an independent, but also a fiscal conservative and social liberal
have voted for dems/indys/repubs for 40 years

#27 | Posted by woke

I have no problem with paying taxes for roads, police, fire dept, etc. All American's use them and in the case of roads, for profit.

form a more perfect UNION=collectively bargain

Perhaps I am misinterpreting that...I assumed the "Union" in that statement referred to the collection of States within the United States.

promote the general WELFARE=healthcare for ALL Americans

I believe there is a distinct, fundamental difference between "promote" and "provide".

For a couple of hours last night the pizza parlor TV was on - Fox, of course.

Soundlessly, surely the best way to watch Hannity, O'Liely and Beck. Fox gets good ratings because it seems to be on in so many commercial establishments - a picture, no sound, absolutely no one watching.

The picture showed The Boys taking on, and apparently decrying, the Democratic version of a health reform proposal: 1) Don't get sick; 2) If you do get sick, die quickly. Rather accurate perception, I thought.

The "boys" also roasted a Demo legislator who - I saw only the caption - "Endorses Health Care For Illegals." Hell, any good Murrican would, if he saw someone bleeding in a gutter, first ask for a green card. herm

For a couple of hours last night the pizza parlor TV was on - Fox, of course.

Soundlessly, surely the best way to watch Hannity, O'Liely and Beck. Fox gets good ratings because it seems to be on in so many commercial establishments - a picture, no sound, absolutely no one watching.

The picture showed The Boys taking on, and apparently decrying, the Democratic version of a health reform proposal: 1) Don't get sick; 2) If you do get sick, die quickly. Rather accurate perception, I thought.

The "boys" also roasted a Demo legislator who - I saw only the caption - "Endorses Health Care For Illegals." Hell, any good Murrican would, if he saw someone bleeding in a gutter, first ask for a green card. herm

Here is the basic problem with virtually everyone who wants or buys auto insurance...
The purchaser realizes that he/she cannot afford to pay for necessary car repairs and property damages out of their own pocket, so they conclude that if they get insurance, they will only have to pay a fraction of the costs and the insurance company will pay the rest.

Yeah, you nailed that one.

ENSIGN should RESIGN

For the record, 99% of all my posts are on topic and presented in respectful, debate format.
A large majority of my posts go unaddressed.

#25 | Posted by libertarian_gi at 2009-10-01 07:16 PM | Reply | Flag:

Many people come her to attack others, and vent their frustrations with life in general--it is therapy of sorts for them.

I see many salient points I have made go unaddressed also.

Such as my point about health insurance companies. I say they are simply middle men who do nothing for the health of their clients. No insurance company ever cured anyone, or came up with any new medicines. They have frequently denied coverage to those who have paid into their coffers for years, driving their customes to bankruptcy or death. Their existence merely heightens medical costs. The fat salaries they pay their execs, and the large buildings that house them are all built with money that could have gone to medical costs. Much as the government pays the military to protect our nation from foreign intruders and to protect all citizens, I see no problem with the government pay health providers with the same intent of protecting all citizens. Just as the government pays soldiers to protect Americans from harm, the government would be paying doctors to protect Americans from harm. You seem to find some value in insurance companies---can you explain that value to me?

Did Ensign make a tearful public apology for his affair? These 'family value' GOPers crack me up.

"Ensign: Public Option Would Be Too Popular"

At least as popular as cheating on wives, I'm sure.

The GOP has become THE EVERYMAN FOR HIMSELF PARTY.

-------

Until it's time to build more prisons, fund a war, or bail out some of their banker pimps.

You idiots have no understganding of business or how health care actually works. Ensign is correct, government run health care would drive private insurers out of business, it almost has already. If you want a sample visit your local VA sometime and study the quality of care. Try waiting for a few months for critical treatment like they do in Cananda. WHY DO YOU DUMBASSES WANT TO GIVE THE GOVERNMENT MORE CONTROL of your life? It boggles the mind how you foaming mouthed morons think you are going to get something for free from the government? Simply amazing. Stand on your own two feet you don't NEED the government

It's getting late, but what type of health insurance do you have, KRAM?

I know that's a really hard question, so maybe you can research it and get back to us, KRAM.

what type of health insurance do you have, KRAM?

Medicaid.

You seem to find some value in insurance companies---can you explain that value to me?

Easy. It's profitable.

Signed,
Ideologues who know Capitalism is the one-size-fits-all solution to the human condition.

***

If you want a sample visit your local VA sometime and study the quality of care.

You mean a study like this?

Capitalism is the one-size-fits-all solution to the human condition.

Out of everything that has been tried, it has by far the greatest degree of success.

Boy, the VA hospitals made a quick turnaround. Just last year when Bush was president, the lefties were all over bush because of the crappy condition of the VA and how badly it was won.

I guess the only way it could make this miraculous 180 turnaround in 8 months is if we had a Messiah at the helm. I don't see how anything short of divine intervention could make such a miraculous change in the VA.

*snark off* (even though it is true that the left was trashing bush only a year ago blaming him for the state of the VA and their hospitals.)(

Do you really think a report by the DoD is going to be unbiased?

Ensign is correct, government run health care would drive private insurers out of business, it almost has already.

That's odd, because Germany has public and private insurance operating side by side. And total health care expenditures only consume 10% of their GDP.

I guess those Germans are just smarter than us. I mean, there's no way Americans could dream up something as ingenious as the cuckoo clock, lederhosen, or the glockenspiel. All we did was easy stuff like go to the moon and invent the atomic bomb.

Goatman, the VA didn't do the study.

Why am I not surprised you didn't get as far as paragraph three before your ideology took control of your nimble little fingers?

If a public option gets passed, don't be shocked if it's challenged on the grounds of being unconsitutional (which it is) and don't be shocked of SCOTUS shoots it down for being unconstitutional.

That our federal government pisses on the Consitution every day spending the treasury on things it is not authorized to do so doesn't mean that 'just one more item' won't get slapped down by the court.

I guess those Germans are just smarter than us

Fahrvergnugen

That's odd, because Germany has public and private insurance operating side by side. And total health care expenditures only consume 10% of their GDP.

The overall quality of their healthcare is inferior to that in the US.

The overall quality of their healthcare is inferior to that in the US.

Not if you include those who are denied healthcare in the US.

Where the fuck do You get the Idea that the Public Option is UnConstitutional JeffJ?? For fuck sake has Medicare been ruled UnConstitutional?????????

Larry

Goatman, the VA didn't do the study.

They sponsored it. It was on a defenselink.mil site and DoD news.

I'd like to see an independent sponsor of the study.

Also I noticed that the study is almost 4 years old. Wonder what that study would show today? Probably pretty shitty if the state of the VA hospitals is as bad as the left made it out to be a year ago. Even the Messiah would not be able to fix those kinds of problems

Not if you include those who are denied healthcare in the US.

#53 | Posted by bruceaz

Yes - even when they are factored in.

Where the fuck do You get the Idea that the Public Option is UnConstitutional JeffJ??

Where do you get the idea Public Health Care is a right, Larry?

The overall quality of their healthcare is inferior to that in the US.
Infant mortality? They are better by like 40%
Life expectancy at birth? They are better by a year.
By what measure, Jeff?

If a public option gets passed, don't be shocked if it's challenged on the grounds of being unconsitutional (which it is)
If that were the case, existing public options like Medicaid and Medicare would never have made it off the flight deck.

Larry,

The Constitution spells out very specifically what our federal government is allowed to spend treasury dollars on. The 10th Ammendment defers all other spending to the states.

Yes, Medicare is unconstitutional.

The raping of the treasury started with the New Deal. FDR's failed court-packing scheme sufficiently cowed SCOTUS into signing off on his unconstitutional agenda.

At that point the floodgates were opened.

Now, you can offer up a reasoned argument as to why the social safety net is a good thing. However, the strenght of said argument doesn't change the fact that much of it is unconstitutional.

Infant mortality? They are better by like 40%

Non-sequitur.

In the US whites get more pre-natal care than blacks and have a better infant mortality rate.

Cause and effect, right?

Not so fast. Hispanics get less pre-natal care than blacks but have an infant mortality rate that is on par with whites.

That's all well and good however, how does the insurance company cover the imbalance between the premiums collected from this person and the claims paid out on that person?

What are you just stupid or was it an accidental birth where you were dropped on your head? Where the hell you think they get the money. They get it from people who were healthy for decades before they finely needed to cash in, and where are the insurance companies then? Trying to figure out how to keep your money anyway. Not only that but they reinvested your money in risky gambles just to make more money and when that went sour stuck it to you for more. Same place the government get money for SS which is a whole lot better deal then the ridiculous fees we pay for private health care.

If that were the case, existing public options like Medicaid and Medicare would never have made it off the flight deck.

#58 | Posted by snoofy

The constitution was shredded by the New Deal.

Since then, judicial precedent has taken priority over the actual text of the constitution.

However, the current court is more originalist than it's been in a long-time.

Again, if the public option passes, don't be shocked if this court correctly squelches it as unconstitutional if a suit is brought.

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

Article 1 - The Legislative Branch
Section 8 - Powers of Congress

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

#310 | Posted by LarryMohr at 2009-09-30 11:54 AM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

Goatman, the VA didn't do the study.

They sponsored it. It was on a defenselink.mil site and DoD news.

What the fuck? That doesn't even make sense. I guess when I read Calvin and Hobbes in The Stars and Stripes, that means the Pentagon sponsored it, with the implication they influenced Bill Watterson's cartoon? Come on Goatman, you're smarter than that.

NEWSFLASH: THEY SERVE PIZZA HUT ON BASE. PIZZA HUT IS OWNED BY THE PENTAGON!!!

Here's a hint: Read paragraph three and you'll find out who did the study.

Again, if the public option passes, don't be shocked if this court correctly squelches it as unconstitutional if a suit is brought.

And then we can get rid of Medicaid and Medicare too.

No politican has the stones for that. Republicans end Medicare and they will never win another election.

We either care about each other or we don't.Why not just say it "Fuck everyone else"

And then we can get rid of Medicaid and Medicare too.

Since those programs are already on the books and well-entrenched, Stare Decisis would likely dictate that they are here to stay.

A new program might not get the same treatment though.

Snoofy:

This report is 4 years old. A year ago a report came out that said the VA medical facilities were in terrible shape. I can't cite the report, but everyone on this blog will remember it -- especially the lefties because they were raking Bush over the coals for it and blaming him.

This tells me the VA quickly fell into disrepair after your cited report.

I realize now it is sorta kinda convenient to forget that, and focus on a report that was made 3 prior, but I'm not going to let you do that. Let's have a little intellectual honesty here, OK? I mean it sure would be handy to say the VA is bad when it suits your political agenda then suddenly shout out its wonderful to suit another, but I don't want to play that game.

Can you cite a more recent report? That would settle the issue.

Larry,

The Constition is very specific regarding what our government can spend treasury dollars on.

The Welfare clause doesn't make all of that specificity go away.

Read the document in its entirety (not cherry-picked snippets coupled with the absolute torture of the English language) and it's really very clear.

Infant mortality? They are better by like 40%

Non-sequitur.

Fine, JeffJ. Despite the fact that infant mortality rate is a widely accepted benchmark of quality of care, we'll use something else.

So, whenever you're ready, just go right ahead and name the metric by which you can back up your assertion that the quality of care in Germany is inferior to the United States.

Hint: Don't pick "Percentage of GDP spent on health care" -- unless you think higher is better. Hmmm are you one of those liberals who thinks you can solve any problem by throwing more money at it? :)

3 prior =
3 years prior

If You declare that the General Welfare does not apply to Medical Care/Health Care I will submit to You that Health Care is not only a National Security issue it is an Economic issue as well. For not only does the Health of it's citizenry affect the population at large by keeping communicable diseases from spreading OR EVEN HAPPENING IN THE FIRST PACE by Yearly check ups etc etc etc. it also protects the financial security of the United States by ensuring the populace is healthy therefore by reducing sick days thereby increasing productivity of the worker and subsequently lowering the financial losses that comes with people being not able to work because of illnesses.

Larry

We either care about each other or we don't.Why not just say it "Fuck everyone else"

We do in all other aspects of life. Those of us who can afford new cars buy them and say, "Fuck everyone else". Those of us who can afford mansions buy them and say, "Fuck everyone else." Those Americans who can afford steak say, "Let everyone else eat baloney".

What makes the ability to purchase health care any different? I can't afford the best health care options and my insurance won't pay for the best, but I don't whine about it.

Since those programs are already on the books and well-entrenched, Stare Decisis would likely dictate that they are here to stay.

A new program might not get the same treatment though.

#67 | Posted by JeffJ at 2009-10-02 03:28 AM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

If that is Your declaration that Medicare/Medicaid is settled law what makes You think they would declare the Public Option different because it's the same thing only it covers ALL of the population instead of the poor and the elderly.

Larry

If You declare that the General Welfare does not apply to Medical Care/Health Care I will submit to You that Health Care is not only a National Security issue it is an Economic issue as well.?

Yea, Larry, we face National security issues if we don't have health care. The evil meanies are at our borders! We must have national health care or they will invade.

And to think I have heard you accuse the right of scare tactics. LOL

If You declare that the General Welfare does not apply to Medical Care/Health Care I will submit to You that Health Care is not only a National Security issue it is an Economic issue as well. For not only does the Health of it's citizenry affect the population at large by keeping communicable diseases from spreading OR EVEN HAPPENING IN THE FIRST PACE by Yearly check ups etc etc etc. it also protects the financial security of the United States by ensuring the populace is healthy reducing sick days thereby increasing productivity of the worker and subsequently lowering the financial losses that comes with people being not able to work because of illnesses.

Larry

EDIT

Grundy time. TTF an Hour or so

I mean it sure would be handy to say the VA is bad when it suits your political agenda then suddenly shout out its wonderful to suit another, but I don't want to play that game.

My approach to health care is based on outcomes and economics. Every other modern nation figured out years ago the politics years ago -- Otto von Bismarck figured it out over a century ago.

Can you cite a more recent report? That would settle the issue.

No it wouldn't. You'd find some pinhead upon which to perform your nightly angelic, nonpartisan dance. :)

I'm independant,I make my way in this world all on my own and I work hard,fuck everyone else.

No you aren't.This is a society,like it or not we're in this together.Lots of people worked hard,put their money in their 401Ks,paid for their houses and look where they are now.

Oh,but I worked hard,fuck those guys.There but for the grace of god.

We do in all other aspects of life. Those of us who can afford new cars buy them and say, "Fuck everyone else". Those of us who can afford mansions buy them and say, "Fuck everyone else." Those Americans who can afford steak say, "Let everyone else eat baloney".

What makes the ability to purchase health care any different? I can't afford the best health care options and my insurance won't pay for the best, but I don't whine about it.

That's perfectly fine, but what if I told you universal coverage would end up costing you less?

What if it were an easily demonstrable fact, as seen in every other modern nation, which has just as good if not better health care than us, including universal coverage, and a cost less than what we pay?

Since those programs are already on the books and well-entrenched, Stare Decisis would likely dictate that they are here to stay.

Ahahaha. Stare decisis. If a public option is unconstitutional, we can't just keep medicare and medicaid "on the books" because it's been that way.

Otherwise, abortion would still be illegal in some states, despite the fact that banning it is unconstitional.

but I don't whine about it

Guess your grand kid was born without CF,well I won't whine about it either,fuck that kid

I'm independant,I make my way in this world all on my own and I work hard,fuck everyone else.

I don't do the "flag" thing, but if I did, this one would be "Doesn't drive on Interstates."

You'd find some pinhead upon which to perform your nightly angelic, nonpartisan dance.

THat's a copout and you know it. It is not exactly pinhead material to question a 4 year old report when a 1 year old report cites there very opposite.

Or do you think that is nitpicking? Please be honest.

Snoofy,

Life expectancy wouldn't be a terrible measure - it has some of the same pitfalls as infant morality, but it's a decent measure.

When we eliminate murders and accidents (which have nothing to do with the quality of healthcare) the US has the highest life expectancy in the world.

Having said that I do acknowledge that we spend the most per capita and that our current cost trajectory is unsustainable.

If you guys limited your argument to an outright necessity to controlling costs, you'd get more traction. It's when you cross the rubicon and get all Utopian whereby you are going to cut costs AND simultaneously improve the overall quality of care is when people like me cough out "bullshit!"

Kinda like when Obama plans to cut $500 billion from Medicare and he's going to recoup it vis a vis cutting waste and fraud without scrimping on coverage. Nobody is buying that snake oil.

#83
snoofy,that was sarcasm,didn't you read the rest of the post?

Guess your grand kid was born without CF,well I won't whine about it either,fuck that kid

It's OK for you to say, "Fuck that kid". She's mine and not yours. I don't expect you to take care of my children.

BTW, what is CF?

Cystic Fibrosis

That's perfectly fine, but what if I told you universal coverage would end up costing you less?

I wouldn't believe it. Never -- and I mean never -- has there been a government program that did not cost more than we were originally told. Never has there been one without cost overruns. Never has there been one that was able to foresee and budget all details.

Why should I believe that health care, consuming 1/6 of the GDP be any different?

I don't expect you to take care of my children.

and along those lines I was a responsible family planner because I could not afford a lot of children. So we chose to have only one.

So why should I pay for the Rodrigues family who chooses to have 10 kids? Is that my reward for being fiscally responsible and their reward for not?

Kinda like when Obama plans to cut $500 billion from Medicare and he's going to recoup it vis a vis cutting waste and fraud without scrimping on coverage. Nobody is buying that snake oil.

Posted by JeffJ

The "cut $500 Billion from seniors" meme is disengenuous at best.

Facts are, "Medicare Advantage", the GOP's attempt at privatizing Medicare, results in 18% of every dollar being wasted on profits for private insurance companies rather than being spent on actual health care. The $500 Billion in savings is over ten years by reforming that boondoggle that never should have been.

Another multibillion dollar waste program brought to you by the folks who brought 'no negotiation for prescription drugs' in Part D - A PRESCRIPTION DRUG PLAN! Smart, eh? Trillion dollar program lining the pockets of the fat cat pharma industry.

Goatman

Everything 'privatized' during the Bush Administraion from military medical treatment to private contractors in Iraq have ended up costing us far MORE in the end. FAR more.

Simple math. That line of yours doesn't wash in the real world. Makes a good bit of phony rhetoric, but untrue as they come.

That line of yours doesn't wash in the real world. Makes a good bit of phony rhetoric, but untrue as they come.

Are you suggesting there were no cost overruns under a democratic president?

LOL. That's a good one. The HST was launched under Clinton. It cost 3x more than originally budgeted.

Go ahead and laugh.

I'm right.

Private contracting has ended up costing 2-3X's as much as the former government employees who did the job just fine for a lot less.

Everything 'privatized'...

Sorry, I somehow skipped that when I wrote post 93. I still stand by it, but it's not what you were saying.

What does privatization have to do with anything? The debate is making health care a government run affair, not privatizing it.

If you want to keep apples to apples, show me a private program that cost less when publicized and had the same quality as when private. That would be a fair comparison

I'm right.

Then accept my challenge in post 95 and give me an example.

JeffJ was talking about Medicare Advantage, which is where the $500 billion will be wasted by private insurers taking 18% profits off the top rather than lowering premiums or spending the money on actual health care.

Private contractors are the same story, but at a much higher percentage of profit.

Sorry, I have no use for GOP arguments about 'savings' in light of the facts. Take, for example. Medicare Part D, where they threatened to fire the in house auditor who was going to tell the truth about how much it would actually cost. And the White House KNEW it. There's a big difference between cost overruns and KNOWING you're lying your ass off before a program even begins.

Is that my reward for being fiscally responsible and their reward for not?

So was I,I had 2 kids,worked and did everything right(I like to think)

My question was are we a society or not.
you say not

you say not

I say frugal people shouldn't be responsible for unresponsible people.

You say they should be.

How about we privatize police and fire departments in this country? I mean, they're government programs. How you think THAT would work out.

Iraq is replete with examples of privatized formerly government jobs that end up costing the taxpayers 3X as much for the same job.

You know I'm right. Medicare provides the same level of health care as private insurers for 20% less, and 2% administrative fees. Private insurers can gripe all they want to, but the problem is everything in the health care field is overpriced WAY beyond the COL index for decades.

Hospitals are hurting because the insurance companies throw out patients after a day when they should be in for several days. Empty beds all over the place because in the insurers won't pay for HEALTH care. WTF do we even NEED health 'insurance' companies for? What do they do to provide care? NOTHING. Absolutely nothing.

Health care should not be a 'for profit' business anymore than the fire departments and police departments should be privatized.

You know I'm right.

???

Actually I don't know that.

Do you have an example per my post 95?

Health care should not be a 'for profit' business anymore than the fire departments and police departments should be privatized.

More important to people's health than a doctor is their diet. Using your logic, we should make sure that everyone is well fed. That means we must buy everyone's food for them, and it must be healthy food -- no fats or excessive carbs that make them fat.

If the government is interested in our health, let's start at the basics. All the doctors in the world cannot fix a lifetime of poor diets.

Hospitals are hurting because the insurance companies throw out patients after a day when they should be in for several days. Empty beds all over the place because in the insurers won't pay for HEALTH care.

This is interesting. You suggest that people should be staying in the hospital longer and they will with public health care. Yet you say public health care will cost less. How can that be if people are in the hospital longer? I'd like to see this math on paper. I'm intrigued.

A friend of ours got nicked during a C-Section. Even with internal bleeding the insurance company refused to pay for 2 days, and so she was kicked out after one day - with complications. She went back. They kicked her out AGAIN after 1 day. She's still having problems.

Know what the biggest problem is in this equation? The insurance company. Hospitals have beds they could fill, but the insurance companies do shit like that.

Boo fucking hoo if private insurers go out of business. They provide ZERO health care delivery, and actually stand in the way of their own clients health.

Let's privatize fire depts and police depts and see how well that would work.

The BASICS are insurance companies skim profits off of money clients pay to receive health care. Period. They serve no purpose and do not have health as a priority.

I say frugal people shouldn't be responsible for unresponsible people.

You say they should be.

That's not what I said,I don't want a BetelG arguement.
And I agree with lifestyle arguements.

But are we a society or not I asked.
Even with your salary I could not pay for my grandchilds disease.and I'm the frugalist person you know.

CF,life expectancy.37

They [insurance companies] serve no purpose and do not have health as a priority.

You do realize that insurance companies will still be involved, don't you? You didn't really think that Uncle Sugar was just going to start writing checks out of the national treasury to doctors and hospitals, did you? LOL

That's not what I said,I don't want a BetelG arguement.

Nor did I say we are not a society as you claimed.

I guess my point was too subtle for you to catch. My bad.

PS I pay for my own family's health insurance and it pisses me off the outrageous amount they charge in premiums. It's doubled in the last several years. Yet, when we've had a medical problem (rare, very rare) we get the shaft and buried in paperwork just to get medical care for which we've paid insurance premiums for all these years and never drew out.

Fuck insurance companies. That's their attitude towards us. I'd put every private health 'insurance' company out of business if I had my druthers. It's a racket.

Good for you if someone else is paying your tab. Just wait. More and more companies are demanding more and more of the premiums be paid by their employees. Don't get injured too badly or permanently or that company that's paying your tab may assess your situation and decide it's too costly to keep you on because of the sky high insurance premiums they must be paying for you. Sadly, that's happening every day to thousands of American families.

I guess my point was too subtle for you to catch

I guess,I'm simple.

CF,life expectancy.37

IT sounds harsh and cruel, but we all are dealt our cards. Some are good some are bad. Personally, the deck is stacked against me. I have diabetes and depend on insulin. My mother died of cancer at 41 and my father is currently battling cancer. All the males on my father's side of the family died of heart related issues.

I'm not looking for sympathy by relating this. I'm simply saying some are unluckier than others. That's not the governement's fault or responsibility to correct. Those are the cold hard facts of life.

I guess,I'm simple.

I don't think so. I think I sometimes expect people to always catch my inferences when I am admittedly not always clear.

...There but for the grace of god.

#79 | Posted by bruceaz at 2009-10-02 03:41 AM

You don't talk a whole lot on here, Bruceaz, but when you do many times you can say a lot in only a few words. Like your comment on cystic fibrosis. Hope it wasn't in your family but, if so, you know how something like that can wipe out a family financially no matter how "personally responsible" they were up to that point. Sometimes folks just need a helping hand from others when things get to be more than they can handle. Doesn't mean they're leeches or on the government dole for everything.

Some diseases like CF and MS or Parkinson's, and so many others which can last for a child's entire lifetime into adulthood, can easily go right through a family's private insurance allowance and max it out. Then what recourse does that family have if they can't count on at least some medical and financial assistance from their own government. I don't mind giving a helping hand to my fellow citizens via my taxes when it's a justified reason. Luckily I haven't been in need, but like you say: "There but for the grace of God" and the same goes for all of us.

I just get so annoyed sometimes at Republicans who seem to constantly throw their favorite phrase of "just take personal responsiblity for yourself" as if they too will know everything coming up around the bend in their own lives. But it only takes one day where a single car accident, or a heart attack, will change a family's entire way of living forever. Yet they want to destroy and dismantle Social Security (which also helps the disabled of all ages). Let's hope they themselves are never in a situation where they will live to regret ever having been so smug.

Well, good night all.

You do realize that insurance companies will still be involved, don't you? You didn't really think that Uncle Sugar was just going to start writing checks out of the national treasury to doctors and hospitals, did you? LOL

#106 | Posted by goatman

Sure, I realize that.

Gee, I wonder how regular Medicare manages to only spend 2 cents out of every dollar on administration and private insurers under Medicare Advantage charge 18-20 cents out of every dollar?

Hmmm You do realize insurance companies don't deliver a single thing in the health care system, right?

You must have rah rah'd Halliburton and KBR like mad. They've managed to skim hundreds of billions in additional costs that were all profit from duties formerly done by the military, right?

GOP thinking is mind boggling in it's lack of common sense.

You must have rah rah'd Halliburton and KBR like mad.

No I didn't. Why do you ask

GOP thinking is mind boggling in it's lack of common sense.

I agree with that wholeheartedly. And to make it the whole truth I'll add that the democratic party is equally mind-boggling in its idiocy

g'night, cc

You must have rah rah'd Halliburton and KBR like mad.

"No I didn't. Why do you ask" - Goatman

A very good example of how privitization of the government led to massive profits for them for doing the same work the dreaded 'government' did for 2-3X less. Walter Reed is another shining example of how privitization of the U.S. Government is a HUGE waste of taxpayer money - not the other way around.

To apply it to our health care system, insurance companies serve no purpose but to serve themselves and skim off 20% of every dollar paid in premiums. That doesn't make sense. The government runs VA and Medicare, and everyone is very happy with both programs. The same can't be said about private insurance. It's a nightmare for most people who get very ill unless they have 'Cadillac Plans' paid for by someone else.

privatization (typing too fast).

Later. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ time

That's perfectly fine, but what if I told you universal coverage would end up costing you less?

I wouldn't believe it. Never -- and I mean never -- has there been a government program that did not cost more than we were originally told. Never has there been one without cost overruns. Never has there been one that was able to foresee and budget all details.

Why should I believe that health care, consuming 1/6 of the GDP be any different?

So is it a uniquely American phenomenon that our health care costs so much?

As you well know other countries don't pay as much (they pay about 1/10th of GDP), and deliver comparable if not superior care. Not very superior; the few points difference in infant mortality separating us from Germany is nothing compared to the difference between the modern countries and Zimbabwe. One might even go so far as to posit the other modern countries achieve superior outcomes by providing universal coverage... but there's no denying it costs them less.

Never has there been one without cost overruns.

I believe we built the I-35 bridge replacement in Minneapolis ahead of schedule and under budget, but I can't be bothered to look it up.

Actually I just did,

I say frugal people shouldn't be responsible for unresponsible people.

You say they should be.

I say go with what takes less money out of my paycheck.

If you want to keep apples to apples, show me a private program that cost less when publicized and had the same quality as when private. That would be a fair comparison

Enron.

Enron.

You mean Enron

Gawd I love texans

You suggest that people should be staying in the hospital longer and they will with public health care. Yet you say public health care will cost less. How can that be if people are in the hospital longer? I'd like to see this math on paper. I'm intrigued.

Well here you go, Goatman. I'm here to help!

The average length of hospital stay in Germany has decreased in recent years from 14 days to 9 days, still considerably longer than average stays in the United States (5 to 6 days)
...
Despite attempts to contain costs, overall health care expenditures rose to 10.7% of GDP in 2005, comparable to other western European nations, but substantially less than that spent in the U.S. (nearly 16% of GDP).[8]

To apply it to our health care system, insurance companies serve no purpose but to serve themselves and skim off 20% of every dollar paid in premiums. That doesn't make sense. The government runs VA and Medicare, and everyone is very happy with both programs. The same can't be said about private insurance. It's a nightmare for most people who get very ill unless they have 'Cadillac Plans' paid for by someone else.

This is the fundamental difference in our arguments. I agree with you that there could be improvement in the health care system. However, your answer is to let the government take it over and run it. Why such a draconian step? Why not have the government over see or even regulate it if necessary.

The government rarely runs things right. You have faith they would somehow do right with health care, but there is no evidence they would, especially based on past performances of other aspects of our society. I'm not that quick to give them 1/6 of our economy. I say let's be prudent and look at all options before signing over the entire shebang to them. Because once they have it, they have it -- for good or bad.

Enron

Technically I believe Enron offered significantly lower quality.

Unless you happened to buy the stock at the right time... and sell it at the right time too. And you're measuring "quality" in a completely different way.

However, your answer is to let the government take it over and run it. Why such a draconian step?

What's so "draconian" about Medicare and S-CHIP? They've vastly improved the lives of millions.

Goatman, couple questions unrelated.
On the rig, is someone standing watch 24x7, like on a boat? I would expect so but I have no idea.
How can I get a rig job? I'm bored with not working.

Back to the subject of health care, read that wiki article about health care in Germany. They have a public/private system which I think would be very viable here in the USA. Many of us have German roots anyway... More to the point, if it works in the largest economy in Europe, it would probably scale to an economy our size.

The government rarely runs things right

The thing is in America the gov't is supposedly "We the people"

What's the problem with that?

I know,No Irish need apply

How can I get a rig job? I'm bored with not working.

Well,can't type anymore my shift is over,got to do some paper work

What's so "draconian" about Medicare and S-CHIP? I just explained: Why take the giant leap to complete government takeover when there may be something less draconian? What's wrong with trying something less intrusive. Allowing the government to take over is like using an elephant gun to kill a squirrel when a .22 would do.

I say let's be prudent and look at all options before signing over the entire shebang to them. Because once they have it, they have it -- for good or bad.

Like we haven't been looking at all the options until five minutes ago...

What we needed was Bush to tell us we don't want the smoking gun to come in the form of a mushroom cloud, then we would have this already.

My fatalistic side tells me our health care system will not change until something like a flu pandemic breaks it beyond repair. i.e., mushroom cloud.

I say go with what takes less money out of my paycheck.

HOw do you know it will be less?

WEll, OK, I know you have special needs, but we are a society, right? How do you know it will be less for the general population? Have you seen the numbers? Or are you taking Obama's word for it?

Allowing the government to take over is like using an elephant gun to kill a squirrel when a .22 would do.

But the elephant gun is more fun! :)

I get what you're saying. Read the article about Germany. The government is the largest provider (and we're not far from that at 40% and growing, and growing a lot as the baby boomers retire) but there is room for the private sector as well.

On the rig, is someone standing watch 24x7, like on a boat?

No

How can I get a rig job?

Send me an email

Have you seen the numbers?

We've both seen what other modern countries pay for health care. It's always less than 1/6th their GDP.

The thing is in America the gov't is supposedly "We the people"

???

OK? What does this have to do with my allegation that the government can't run things right?

Goatman, I went to look at your user page, and I will send you an email.

But I couldn't stop laughing when I saw that Aretha Franklin picture! For a second I thought you had chosen that as your avatar.

A recent study found that 62 percent of all bankruptcies filed in 2007 were linked to medical expenses. Of those who filed for bankruptcy, nearly 80 percent had health insurance.9

We've both seen what other modern countries pay for health care.

I'd like to see them for America. Have you? We aren't Europe. I get tired of things being presented as, "Well, it works like that in other countries" when nothing could be further from the truth.

We the people are all fucked up.What we need are Tories.

OK? What does this have to do with my allegation that the government can't run things right?

Again, is that specific to our government, or a symptom of government in general? Could the Romans run things right? Druids? Incas?

I think there's a rich subtext of American ideology at work there, bubbling up through the cracks of this health care debate.

Anyone who can't see the system is sick needs to go to an optomotrist or sommat.

As I said, it could be better. But someone who thinks taking draconian measures like blindly handing the whole thing over to an inept government needs to see a shrink or sommat.

We aren't Europe

We compare rather well to the EU, don't you think? Add up all their stats and you'll see better health care for less.

But not even Europe can compete with Singapore. 3% of GDP and some of the best health care in the world. City-state FTW!

We aren't Europe

Neither is Canada.

We cover everyone fer a much smaller percentage of GDP without the bankrupcy thang.

Yer point?

American Exceptionalism means that a public option wouldn't work?

Be Well.

Yer point?

You made it:

We cover everyone fer a much smaller percentage of GDP without the bankrupcy thang.

The larger a beurocracy gets, the more unwieldy and ineffecient it becomes.

Thanks for asking.

BTW, last summer I spent a week in Ontario (near Halliburton) and talked to a lot of Canadians about your health care plan. 80% of them said it sucked.

Now I know you are obliged to say differently since you have a lefty master to report to, but IRL I get a different message.

As I said, it could be better. But someone who thinks taking draconian measures like blindly handing the whole thing over to an inept government needs to see a shrink or sommat.

Obama's plan is not some draconian plan to take over the entire health care industry just provide some solid and at least semi accountable competition to the near-monopoly who have to date raised costs (and hence profits) to nar intolerable levels. They've achieved their profit maximisation scheme through collusion, through cutting care, through denying claims and hurrying sick people out of their hospital beds etc.

That's not a very high bar for the government to try and jump over now is it?

Even fer a government as ineffectual, corporately corrupted and slow-assed as they are.

Be Well.

blindly handing the whole thing over to an inept government

Common goatman.;How much do you think the gov't has to do with your job.

I mean really,how many lobbyist does it take to secure your position.

If you guys get in trouble don't call the coast guard.Oh the oil business is a matter of national security

Do you even work for an american company or are you BP

Do you even work for an american company or are you BP

I work for an American company, but right now my rig is contracted to BP. We just finished a contract with shell last year.

I don't understand the gist of the rest of your message.

BTW, last summer I spent a week in Ontario (near Halliburton) and talked to a lot of Canadians about your health care plan. 80% of them said it sucked.

Ontario?

That's where the number of Americans coming over the border using false Canadian Health Care cards forced the government to enact stricter security procedures.

If Canadian Health Care sucked so badly why the American leeches?

And in terms of yer IRL scenario?

By an overwhelming margin, Canadians prefer the Canadian health care system to the American one. Overall, 82% said they preferred the Canadian system, fully ten times the number who said the American system is superior (8%).

Obama's plan is not some draconian plan to take over the entire health care industry...

Perhaps not, but there are still less intrusive avenues to explore before it has to become obamacare

BTW, last summer I spent a week in Ontario (near Halliburton) and talked to a lot of Canadians about your health care plan. 80% of them said it sucked.
I have a relative who says the same thing.
Oddly enough, he spends seven months a year living in Canada so he doesn't have to give up his "free" health care.

The larger a beurocracy gets, the more unwieldy and ineffecient it becomes.
Oh, so Goatman is in favor of splitting up the USA :)

That's where the number of Americans coming over the border using false Canadian Health Care cards forced the government to enact stricter security procedures.

Yea, I'm sure they drive 4.5 hours from Buffalo to the tiny burg of Halliburton for health care, deth.

At any rate, I talked to Canadians, not Americans.

It FAILs

I guess I was the victim of a bizarre statistical anomaly. Or I could be falling prey to you cherry picking numbers as I've seen you do before.

I'll stick to the people I talked to and hope they weren't americans driving 4.5 hours to halliburton just for the health care. LOL

I don't understand the gist of the rest of your message.

I don't understand the gist of the rest of your message.

Be Well.

As long as obamacare isn't forced on me, I probably will be.

Oh, so Goatman is in favor of splitting up the USA :)

Hey, if da bOoB says it's a good idea, too . . . *grin*

Goatman, do you even know how much your employer's contribution to your health insurance premiums are?

Add to that your Medicare/Medicaid and FICA taxes and see if it's consuming 1/6th of your paycheck.

Damn this computer stuff.
I was trying to say.
I have no gist,no agendas and no vendettas.

Shell,Dutch.

Anyway I'll talk to you on another day,bro
Not saying anything just talking,if you know what I mean

Goatman, do you even know how much your employer's contribution to your health insurance premiums are?

Ask me in a month. It is open enrollment and our packages are being sent out next week.

I know, however, that I pay about $90/mo for $500 deductible, $2000 max OOP, 50% name brand prescription 25% generic. Lifetime max $2,000,000

Dental similiar (Not lifetime max! LOL) I have options for the non-taxable fund, eyecare as well. And life, DD,

FOrgot to add: $15 copay, if in network dr. Must be referred to specialist by PCP. And that $90/mo is just me -- no dependents

Not what you pay. What your employer pays (and thus doesn't pay you). It's a fuck-ton more than $90/mo.

Add it all up, you'll see the problem.

Why should I believe that health care, consuming 1/6 of the GDP be any different?

#89 | Posted by goatman at 2009-10-02 03:53 AM | Reply | Flag:

Read this...

Regarding the unconstitionality of a public option - the defense would likely sell it as an expansion of Medicare/Medicaid.

SCOTUS probably wouldn't shoot it down, but it is possible.

One thing's for certain though, whichever justice writes the opinion upholding its constitutionality, will cite case law and not the document itself.

Yea, I'm sure they drive 4.5 hours from Buffalo to the tiny burg of Halliburton for health care, deth.

And Maine.

I'll stick to the people I talked to and hope they weren't americans driving 4.5 hours to halliburton just for the health care. LOL

Or New Brunswick.

Everyone who is a legal resident of Canada is entitled to the same health care. You don"t even have to be a citizen, just a legal resident. When you are born, you registered in your province and you get a health care card. If you legally move to Canada from somewhere else, you are entitled to health care. Everyone who is a legal resident has a health care card. Here is mine.

So long as you remain a legal resident of the province, meaning that you are "ordinarily present" there for 183 days out of a 12-month period, you are entitled to care. There are lots of exceptions that allow you care when you live out of Canada; you can be gone for a year if you are traveling, so long as you show intent to return, and you are covered if you are a full-time student anywhere in the world.

Interestingly, Ontario recently went through the expense of making everyone get picture ID"s to stem the problem of Americans coming across the border and borrowing health care cards. A few years ago, there were more health care cards in existence in New Brunswick than there were legal residents of the province. It turns out that folks from Maine were going to Canada for care with fake health care cards.

LOL.

Be Well.

From here, btw.

Perhaps not, but there are still less intrusive avenues to explore before it has to become obamacare

#149 | Posted by goatman at 2009-10-02 06:18 AM | Reply |

Intrusive? Its not like they've got a mandatory anal probe amendment.

Yes, there are dishonest people in the US, deth. I admit it.

That is no reason to blindly hand over our health care to an inept government

Intrusive? Its not like they've got a mandatory anal probe amendment.

Wanna bet?

" 'Intrusive? Its not like they've got a mandatory anal probe amendment.'

Wanna bet?"

Blue Cross does. It's called a colonoscopy.
Miralax and Fentanyl: The drug cocktail of one's 50's.

Blue Cross does. It's called a colonoscopy.

The US government calls it BOHICA

Blue Cross has better drugs.

but there are still less intrusive avenues to explore before it has to become obamacare

Would you care to name some of them?

Goatman reminds me of a kid who knows he has to eat, but can't figure out what he wants for dinner.

Do you want pizza? No.
Do you want chicken? No.
What would you like? I don't know.
We'll have meatloaf. No!!!

:)

As long as obamacare isn't forced on me, I probably will be.

#153 | POSTED BY GOATMAN AT 2009-10-02 06:23 AM |

Look up the word OPTION, son.

It'll be FUNNY to see how fast these naysayers jump at the chance for secure healthcare with lower prices,.........IF a public option is offered.

I listened to a public radio interview with a "co-op" manager and a couple of other healthcare industry people this am. The ALL said that co-ops provide better chance for quality and better consumer satisfaction BUT will not reduce the COSTS.

My copays have gone from $5 to $20 in the last 10 years or so, and originally, my plan paid 100%, but now only 80% of costs. ER has gone from $25 to $100.

Can you do math?

snoofy,

I had the same experience with our 4 yr old granddaughter who was tired last night.

We have cheerios? NO
We have life cereal? NO
We have fruity pebbles? NO
We have wheaties? NO

I want lucky charms?
We don't have those....

NO?

LOL

If the Public Option would be so great and popular with the voters, than pass it, and why worry whether or not Republicans support it.
It will be the Republicans that will suffer in the elections.

Every one knows this is not the case, which is why they are having trouble passing a bill with the Public Option in it.

My copays have gone from $5 to $20 in the last 10 years or so, and originally, my plan paid 100%, but now only 80% of costs. ER has gone from $25 to $100.

welcome to the real world.

costs are going to continue to climb. I would hope that a public option would get insurers to lower premiums to compete but that does not address the real elephant in the room which is the problem of "supply and demand".

We need to focus on getting more and more students into the medical profession. Without addressing that problem, any insurance reform is meaningless long-term.

I've been in the "real world" now for 60 yrs EBERLY. What does that have to do with it. Healthcare reform was proposed first the last time a dem was potus and repugs shouted it down then....and now they are doing it again.

The party of NO!

Enough doctors are NOT the problem. Where the hell do you come up with that crapola? Man, one red herring, faux issue after another.

My point is easy to understand and verified by history. As dems try to reform and offer a CHOICE to Americans, the COSTS RISE, as they have done since the early 90's.

And as repugs play the FEAR card about the public option, healthcare/pharma corps RAISE prices like a gun manufacturer who uses that same repug fear tactic that dems will take your guns to sell more and at higher prices.

Frankly, I'm tired of watching and listening to DUPES who have been snowed for DECADES into positions that are AGAINST their best interests.

lead, follow, or get the fk out of the way

eh?

Enough doctors are NOT the problem. Where the hell do you come up with that crapola? Man, one red herring, faux issue after another.

I have the finest insurance you can have and if I want to see a specialist, i have to wait 6 months to get in.

we need more doctors, nurses and other healthcare professionals. we need to get more of them into medical school and cover their expenses to elimate the problem of all the debt these students face when graduating.

And as repugs play the FEAR card about the public option, healthcare/pharma corps RAISE prices like a gun manufacturer who uses that same repug fear tactic that dems will take your guns to sell more and at higher prices.

keep swimming in the partisan pool of shit. it suits you well, shit for brains.

I've been in the "real world" now for 60 yrs EBERLY.

healthcare with zero costs to go to doctor/pharma/deductibles etc...

not the real world, shit for brains.

union benefits dried up didn't they????

EBERLY

Build it and they will come, eh?

LOL

And as I have been telling people since i began posting on this site about a month ago.....

namecalling is not only NOT an argument, it detracts from whatever argument you might have had......it insures people understand that your argument is specious, otherwise, why the need to namecall, eh?

LOL

Build it and they will come, eh?

poor analogy.

poor analogy?

The healthcare reform can include incentives to train new healthcare professionals and stop rewarding those who play golf 3 days a week for a living.

Health Care Reform Could Provide More Doctors for Older Americans
By: Karen Springen | Source: AARP Bulletin Today | July 24, 2009

Delaying reform any further will simply continue the status quo, which EVERYONE understands is BROKEN...

Well, everyone that gives a shit.

You got yours, eh EBERLY??

I haven't asserted that we should delay reform woke. my comment about the problem of supply and demand is simply pointing out that problem to be addressed going forward. you can't fix that overnight.

The healthcare reform can include incentives to train new healthcare professionals and stop rewarding those who play golf 3 days a week for a living.

fair point.

why do you think doctors are playing golf 3 days a week?

because there is a plentiful supply of them?

Hope you don't mind me asking, but where do you get your rw talking points,.....er info from??

If i threw you a life preserver and offered to pull you out of that pool of partisan shit, you would refuse.

"To have a large program like this, once it's started, you're never going to get rid of it."

This is true- they never remove laws, only add new ones.

I hope all you " Government couldn't pour water out of a boot if the instructions were on the bottom" are all in favor of bringing our troops home and disbanding the military.

But you're not are you. Government is bad only when you don't agree with the program.
Real fine human being you lot are, real fine.

why do you think doctors are playing golf 3 days a week?
because there is a plentiful supply of them?

#182 | POSTED BY EBERLY AT 2009-10-02 11:28 AM

Par for the course: Golf rankings of doctors
Updated 7/5/2006 9:10 PM ET

By Jessica Sidman, USA TODAY
Pediatric urologist Bradley Kropp thinks about golf so much that he refers to surgical instruments as golf clubs.
"I asked for a driver, and you handed me a putter," he tells operating room nurses when they hand him the wrong scalpel.

Kropp is 14th on Golf Digest's rankings of America's 100 best golfer/doctors. The rankings consist of the top doctors with the lowest U.S. Golf Association handicap indexes. The list is part of the magazine's "Golf & Health" package, which hits newsstands Tuesday.

An additional 150 can be seen at www.golfdigest.com/doctors.

Orthopedic surgeons dominated the rankings, taking 15 spots in the top 100. Urologists came in second with eight.

Orthopedic surgeons tend to be the jocks of their profession, and urologists are known to be easygoing, says Furlong, who compiled the rankings.

But it was a pulmonary specialist from Savannah, Ga., who came in first. Doug Hanzel has qualified eight times for the U.S. Amateur and won nearly 20 local tournaments.

Many in the top 100 play several times per week and regularly compete in amateur tournaments. A few have also considered going pro. Some even live on golf courses.

Seems to me the problem isn't really golf, but that they prefer becoming highly paid, underworked specialists instead of what is needed, lower paid, overworked, general practitioners, er doctors, etc.

I wouldn't say that general practitioners are under paid despite the fact they make less usually.

But those specialists obviously have the demand knowing there is limited supply. They wouldn't be out there playing golf while people wait 6 months for an appointment.

You are entitled to your opinion, as am i, however, mine isn't also being spewed daily by rw talk show multimillionaires and yours is...eh?

keep insisting on that. Retards who rely solely on talking points themselves HAVE to accuse others of the same to argue something.

The supply and demand problem is not a FEAR issue and it doesn't have anything to do with blocking reform on the table now. What i have heard from right wing pundits haven't been about supply and demand...but rather about death panels, abortion provisions, etc.. but not supply and demand.

That comes from just paying attention to the marketplace.

"but rather about death panels"

There already are death panels. They reside in the offices of the insurance companies.

"abortion provisions"

Meaning they lost the issue at the ballot box and in the courtroom, so they're suddenly all in favor of their own brand of judicial activism.

Danforth, I was just explaining what arguments I have heard from right wing pundits and that I haven't heard the FEAR of supply and demand that Woke is babbling about. I didn't say I agreed with any of it.

Woke is one of those posters that make you long for the lucid and pertinent rants of Johnson or Jeffin.

As long as obamacare isn't forced on me, I probably will be.

#153 | POSTED BY GOATMAN AT 2009-10-02 06:23 AM |

Look up the word OPTION, son.

Look up the word "subsidy", hon. Do yo ureally think private insurers will be able to compete against government subisidized ones? LOL

Can you do math?

Yes I can. It is hat ability that allows me to understand that private insurers won't be able to compete against government subisidies

Do you have a brain?

BTW, I love the way you always rail on and on that all you want is honest debate and all anyone else wants to do is hurl insults, then condescendingly ask, "Can you do math.?" That's pretty funny stuff. Hypocrisy is.

Physician, heal thyself! LOL

Ah, here is kanrei.....becoming another lil stalker troll who posts nothing of substance, but just cannot help himself from denigrating me personally, instead of posting something on topic.

of course, when he does post his rw tp, don't think he's a rwr....he is an indy who always posts the rw pov, that's all...

LOL

EBERLY

perhaps you din't realize that saying "there aren't enough drs to give healthcare to everyone" is a right wing fear talking point.

my sincerest apologies and now you know better, right??

LOL

#192 | Posted by woke at 2009-10-02 03:26 PM | Reply | Flag: Should type "Duh" and save everyone time

People who keep missing the part about a public option being premium-based are just squeezing their eyes tight shut.

but there are still less intrusive avenues to explore before it has to become obamacare

Would you care to name some of them?

Yes. Oversight committees perhaps. Even regulation is better than full blown gov takeover. I mentioned this upthread.

Goatman reminds me of a kid who knows he has to eat, but can't figure out what he wants for dinner.

Do you want pizza? No.
Do you want chicken? No.
What would you like? I don't know.
We'll have meatloaf. No!!!

If this analogy pertains to PHC and the choices we have, let's make it more accurate:

Do you want a shit sandwich for inner? No.
Don't eat then

perhaps you din't realize that saying "there aren't enough drs to give healthcare to everyone" is a right wing fear talking point.

no it isn't. can you prove that? Obama has accepted this and has publicly admitted along with, I'm sure, the dems in his corner.

Good grief, if Rush said that Wednesday followed Tuesday would that qualify as a "right wing fear talking point" because he said it?

Believe it or not Woke, there is some common ground on our health care problems.

People who keep missing the part about a public option being premium-based are just squeezing their eyes tight shut.

#194 | Posted by Corky

That's because Obama stated it would be funded by taxing the wealthy. That isn't 'premium-based'.

perhaps you din't realize that saying "there aren't enough drs to give healthcare to everyone" is a right wing fear talking point.

no it isn't. can you prove that?
#196 | POSTED BY EBERLY AT 2009-10-02 03:36 PM

ok eberly, if i prove it to you will you bother to admit you are wrong?
cause if so, it would prove to me you aren't just a rw dupe or shill, cause they NEVER admit when their misinformation and lies are debunked....

First of all, you COULD do the work yourself if you cared just to google not enough doctors

here ya go.....i found this in 30 secs...

Dick Morris' Concern About Universal Health Coverage: Not Enough Doctors To Go Around
Reported by Ellen - April 17, 2009 - 72 comments

Dick Morris must have given up on accusing Barack Obama of wanting to provide taxpayer-funded health insurance to illegal immigrants, at least for the time being. On last night's (4/16/09) Hannity, Morris came up with a new excuse to oppose the universal health care coverage most Americans want. After making the baseless claim that Obama's poll numbers are sinking fast, Morris told Sean Hannity last night that the problem with expanding health insurance is that there aren't enough doctors to go around. Instead of working to make sure there are more doctors, Morris seems to prefer that some people go without care.

That's because Obama stated it would be funded by taxing the wealthy. That isn't 'premium-based'.

#197 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2009-10-02 03:40 PM |

Tell us why you shill for the uber rich jeff?? cause i'm pretty sure you don't average 7.4 mil a year as the top 1% who would be affected the most, but can afford to have their taxes increased back to where reagan had them.......

is it just wannabee or what?

why would you not instead speak for what is in your own best interests??

Eberly,

I'm not saying there isn't a doctor shortage, especially in general practice.

I'm asking you WHY that would stop reform, especially considering that INCENTIVES to pay for dr. training could be installed into the bill, and then have them do what is needed for a set number of years.....

I even linked you an AARP article about it.

Why is the first inclination to throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Why is the first inclination to throw the baby out with the bathwater?

You mean like completely trash the current system and give the whole thing lock, stock, and barrel to a bankrupt government that is already mired in beauracracy and red tape?

Good question. I've asked it a lot, too.

I'm asking you WHY that would stop reform, especially considering that INCENTIVES to pay for dr. training could be installed into the bill, and then have them do what is needed for a set number of years.....

It shouldn't. I've already said that so stop asking me the question.

BTW, are you related to Herm? He does this shit too.

Morris, a political prostitute that frequently shows up to shill on fox shows.......and rubber stamps their rw tp each and every time....

Yes, he is on Fox quite a lot and yes, it appears that he has used the shortage of doctors to suggest stalling current reform.

But he is right that the best reform is to get more doctors....common sense tells some of us that.

I'm not saying there isn't a doctor shortage, especially in general practice.

sure you aren't. And here is a good example of you saying that....

"So your rw tp that there are not enough drs is bs imo."

or this one...

"Enough doctors are NOT the problem. Where the hell do you come up with that crapola?"

Perhaps what you mean is that you mispoke earlier when you tried to say that claiming there is a doctor shortage was BS.

Tell us why you shill for the uber rich jeff?? cause i'm pretty sure you don't average 7.4 mil a year as the top 1% who would be affected the most, but can afford to have their taxes increased back to where reagan had them.......

of course you would interpret that way. you are all ideology and nothing more woke.

His point was that if a tax(regardless on where the $$ are coming from) is going to fund it then you can't call it "premium based".

Oh, and to your argument about changing the tax brackets.....let Obama and the dems do it then.

JJ,

Sorry if it was already covered up-thread, but the conversation seems to have been killed by Goatboy for like the 5,783rd time so I skipped down...

To your point: I'd guess this Court, like every SC since the 1920's will cower under the shade of the Necessary and Proper Clause if a SPS were voted in. Patrick Henry was right; sec.8 clause 18 pretty much invalidated any measure of Federal restraint offered in the rest of the Constitution.

The N&P Clause is the single biggest mistake in American history. It has been the crutch of a thousand injustices over the years; from regulating how much wheat a farmer can grow on his own land, to prohibition, and internment camps. It's a get-out-of-jail free card for American fascists, robber barons, and window-watching, nanny-state, do-gooders.

Why is the first inclination to throw the baby out with the bathwater?
You mean like completely trash the current system and give the whole thing lock, stock, and barrel to a bankrupt government that is already mired in beauracracy and red tape?
Good question. I've asked it a lot, too.

#201 | POSTED BY GOATMAN AT 2009-10-02 04:18 PM

See, this is exactly what i'm talking about.....
Pure hyperbole with a wisecrack thrown in....but, at least no namecalling and on topic too.....good job goatboy.

Uh, how is giving us an OPTION gonna trash the whole system pray tell.....

As i said, this kind of horseshit is just repug FEAR tactics so dupes like yourself will not only NOT think in terms of what is in your own best interest, but will in fact SHILL for those giant global healthcare /pharma corps.....

You are being a DUPE goat, unwitting or not??

EVERY industrialized nation in the WORLD already has a public option of some kind......

Did those corps refuse to barter?

Did they drop out of existence as a result?

Or do you think they just might be able to exist without GOUGING American working people by increasing their costs astronomically??

Get it straight.....they will play along with what the PEOPLE demand.

What we are seeing right now is how far from daring to demand a chance decent healthcare for ALL some people are....

They are "askeered" like you, goat....

No need to be though. And if a few MIDDLEMEN lose out, who cares....it's those who really don't provide anything to our healthcare, but rake in the windfalls that are worried about it....

Are you a pharma rep or what?
Do you work for an 'insurance' company?

If not, why are you shilling for giant global healthcare/pharma corps using their fear tactics against what's in your own best interest?

Confucious say: When two people argue, bystander takes advantage

Figure it out goat, we are at each other's throats while the richest and most powerful take advantage.....

ARe you able to understand and recognize that?

Ok Eberly

I SHOWED you that using the fear that there won't be enough drs to go around is a rw tp fear tactic

But you are more interested in making some point that you know best and i'm a liar.

more power to ya....

While i understand there are more specialists raking it in, that general practitioners, I also pointed out how reform could help that situation via incentives to training....(AARP article included)

But, you'd rather pretend you WON some blog argument than admit you are being disengenuous and not understanding that a dr shortage should NOT stop reform or a public option.

That's okay....there is a lot of that "I got you" on this site.....it doesn't add to the CREDIBILITY of what is said at all....

Have it your way son, I'll be on medicare soon....will you? LOL

Eberly said, "some of us with common sense"....like dick morris

HAAHAAHAAHAAHAAHAAHAAAHAHAAAAH
AAHAAHAHAAHHAHA''

Well, he certainly knows which side of his bread is buttered.....eh?

He'd say the sky was yellow and the sun was blue if murdoch PAID him to........

You know who murdoch is?
The aussie who owns faux and a huge conglomerate of media.

How about unkkkle kkkarl? You remember the guy who outed our own cia ops, smeared a decorated war vet, tried to politicize our justice dept......and who now delivers the rw tp DIRECTLY, which is then spoken on faux, then parroted by the other corporate media incessantly....which makes it appear to be fact or "common sense" Kinda makes you think everyone thinks there way and they are the middle ground, eh? Don't be so easily fooled my friend.

If ONLY providing incentives, by itself, would reform healthcare, we wouldn't be having this discussion....

can you not realize that much with your "common sense"?

Whatever.....nice talking to someone on here that doesn't have to resort to personal attack and namecalling......I believe you are a good influence on some who usually do otherwise, so keep up the civilness....

Have a nice weekend

"House Minority Leader John Boehner claims that he's never met a regular citizen who likes the public option saying, delightfully, that the PO is about as popular as a "garlic milkshake."

Well, order the people of Ohio a big old Pesto McFlurry.

A Quinnipiac poll from mid-Sept. found that 57 percent of Ohioans surveyed said they support "giving people the option of being covered by a government health insurance plan that would compete with private plans," with 35 percent saying they were opposed."

Boehner is very out of touch with his own constituents.

Ensign should be crapping bricks over the looming ethics investigation over his paying off his married mistresses husband to keep quiet. (Ensign's married). Love those 'family values' guys!

.no namecalling .....good job goatboy.

LOL YOu can't make this stuff up.

Woke, you are too easy of a punching bag, dude. You do all the work for me. LOL

How about unkkkle kkkarl?

Hey, anyone here seen woke? Somone is posting under his name. He said yesterday he is more interested in debate than name calling, so obviouly someone hijacked his user ID

*snark off*

As I said in the last sentence of #209, woke. LL

goat

i can take it and give it to those who know nothing else, but let me ask you this....

is there a difference in your eyes between a personal attack on a poster her on DR using namecalling and insults and little actual on topic substance

vs

posting some facts, linked articles with credible sources to support my opinions along with me calling that little weasel, chickenhawk, karl rove, unkkkle kkkarl??

did that disturb you?

do you identify that much with that sob?

that explains a lot about you my friend

So how much does your employer pay for your health care, Goatman?

Isn't it rather shocking that in our free market economy, you have no idea of the costs? How can you make an informed choice without price transparency?

Hiding the costs by having your employer skim it off your paycheck before he even pays you is part and parcel of how it got to be 1/6th our GDP.

Also, I just want to make sure you realize that your lifetime maximum, deductibles, co-pays, and out-of-network surcharges are all examples of rationing.

You mean like completely trash the current system and give the whole thing lock, stock, and barrel to a bankrupt government that is already mired in beauracracy and red tape?

A public option doesn't do that. It's an option. Seriously, read the wiki piece about health care in Germany. I've led you to the water. Drink, horsey, drink. Oh you don't want water? What do you want, milk? No? How about Kool-Aid then?

Is healthcare just one word now? I guess it's sort of stupid to not just call it "care."

goatman is employed?????

he spends the entire day after day posting on DR....it's pretty easily verified, just look at his plethora of posting....

i guess someone PAYS him to spend all day fkn off on DR.....

It always amazes me to see how the posting numbers drop at certain times of day and on the weekend.

Its pretty obvious that many posters are doing this at work....

or, it is their work, eh?

paid political prostitutes

LOL

or if they do it for no pay, that's even funnier, eh>?

LOL

So how much does your employer pay for your health care, Goatman?

As I said yesterday, ask me in a month. I'll have my open enrollment package then and it explains all that

Isn't it rather shocking that in our free market economy, you have no idea of the costs? How can you make an informed choice without price transparency?

Because I'd be foolish to think that if Obamacare comes to be that my employer is going to raise my salary by the amount they won't be contributing anymore. But it is certain that my taxes will go up to pay for obamacare. IOW, I'll end up with less pay and poorer coverage. Who in their right mind would be for that?

goatman is employed?????

Yes

he spends the entire day after day posting on DR....it's pretty easily verified,

Wrong again, woke. 21 days of posting then 21 days of non posting. (actually it was 14/14 before this hitch) It's pretty easily verified. LOL

Its pretty obvious that many posters are doing this at work....

And this is your concern because . . .?

did that disturb you?

No, not at all. I was merely pointing out your lies and hypocrisy. I wasn't defending Karl Rove.

do you identify that much with that sob?

Not in the least

that explains a lot about you my friend

My lack of identity with Karl Rove says a lot about me? I never really thought about it, but if you say so . . .

The CEO of Aetna made 24 million last year---how many people did his company cure?

Health insurance companies are parasites on the American economy. They have absolutely no value to the health care of their customers.

The CEO of Aetna made 24 million last year---how many people did his company cure?

???

INsurance companies are not in the business of curing people, bOoB. How can you carry on a meaningful debate about private health care vs public health care when you don't even know the roles the various players play?

INsurance companies are not in the business of curing people, bOoB. How can you carry on a meaningful debate about private health care vs public health care when you don't even know the roles the various players play?

#218 | POSTED BY GOATMAN AT 2009-10-02 10:29 PM

Jebus goat that is the point son. WHY should they get such a huge cut of the pie?

Like national security and education, healthcare should not be held hostage to profit and especially not the windfall profits they've gotten, and especially not people who aren't directly involved.

Try thinking of it as bypassing the middle man, goat.

Sorry, if you cannot understand that private healthcare insurance delivers services with a 30% overhead that govt purchased services from the same companies don't incur.

Good luck to ya tho.....I hope none of the dirty tricks ins co play on consumers ever falls on you or those you love.

For all the libs out there -- think about your job and what YOU do for a living? How about Obama and his crew of idiots deciding that they need to control your industry by offering an alternative, borne on the backs of taxpayers, to compete with your company. How long would you have a job?

It is not the gov's place -- period. We are not a socialist contry (yet) and just because there are examples of gov workers getting benefits does not mean the people of this country want Obama and Emanuel dishing out prescriptions.

We are not a socialist country.

What a crock of crapola.

Then give up your fire dept, police dept, public highways, bridges infrastructure, FDIC, social security, medicare/medicaid, VA...on and on

form a more perfect UNION=collectively bargain

promote the general WELFARE= for healthcare for ALL Americans, not just the rich....

Get this straight son. Your fear and smear right wing, corporate hacks are telling you this bs, while they collect millions to do so.
They have theirs, screw everyone else.

For our govt to bargain with the very same healthcare/pharma corps who presently deal with giant global INSURANCE corps is not socialism. It's intelligent. And it erases the MIDDLE MEN and their 30% extra costs....

Get a clue. Do some research and stop allowing multimillionaire shills to tell you what to think son.

Senate GOP leader offers no support to Ensign
By PETE YOST and LAURIE KELLMAN (AP) 18 hours ago
WASHINGTON Sen. John Ensign of Nevada was only beginning to emerge from a self-imposed political exile over fallout from his extramarital affair with a campaign aide. Now, tawdry new details about the case are raising fresh questions whether Ensign can be re-elected in 2012 or even face criminal charges over his behavior.
If Ensign was looking for signs of support among Republican leaders on Capitol Hill on Friday, he didn't get any. Senate GOP leader Mitch McConnell declined repeatedly to answer questions about Ensign or offer any support. Other Republicans, already effectively a 60-40 minority in the Senate, also met the latest developments with silence, wary of speaking out until they see evidence of wrongdoing uncovered by the Senate ethics committee or federal law enforcement.

There is and never will be a perfect healthcare system. Recently, the head of the Canadian system said that there is a waiting list of 1,000,000 for elective surgery. She also stated that their costs were out of control and in danger of bankrupting the system.