Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs
Wednesday, September 30, 2009

Fifteen months after declaring that Americans have an individual right to keep and bear arms, the US Supreme Court on Wednesday agreed to decide an equally important issue -- whether that constitutional protection applies not only in federal jurisdictions but in every city, county, and state in the nation.

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While I am a believer in the 2nd Amendment and an admitted 'gun nut', I also believe that this country is supposed to be a Republic and the states should have the right to pass those laws that the people want.

This creates a certain ambivalence when laws involving issues like guns or abortion are concerned.

It makes good sense to me to strike down Chicago gun laws but I am not sure that this is what the founding fathers intended.

Short version: If Roe v Wade is an example then these gun laws should be struck down.

SCOTUS to be busy next year!

While I am a believer in the 2nd Amendment and an admitted 'gun nut', I also believe that this country is supposed to be a Republic and the states should have the right to pass those laws that the people want.

This creates a certain ambivalence when laws involving issues like guns or abortion are concerned.

It makes good sense to me to strike down Chicago gun laws but I am not sure that this is what the founding fathers intended.

Short version: If Roe v Wade is an example then these gun laws should be struck down.

#1 | Posted by Cowboy at 2009-09-30 01:09 PM


One little problem with your post.

Roe v Wade is not in the Bill of Rights.

If they let the local laws stand, which are putting restrictions on the 2nd Amendment, then I would like to see some local law passed that limit which religions can be worshiped, and limitations on television commercials for Republican candidates.

If they let the local laws stand, which are putting restrictions on the 2nd Amendment, then I would like to see some local law passed that limit which religions can be worshiped, and limitations on television commercials for Republican candidates.

And further limitations on free speech, and keep certain people from voting and stop paying tribute to the federal government..and...and...and...

And further limitations on free speech, and keep certain people from voting and stop paying tribute to the federal government..and...and...and...

#4 | Posted by Axiom at 2009-09-30 01:36 PM


I was being facetious, of course, but that's my very point.

If local laws can be used to put restrictions on the 2nd Amendment, then what's to stop local laws being written to ignore the other Amendments?

Rather than waste large sums of the taxpayers' money and the valuable time of the Supreme Court, why doesn't Chicago just purcase artificial cocks for the dickless bastards that need handguns to feel like a real man?

A few ounces of latex and vinyl would cost much less than all the lawyer fees and these poor 'men' could feel good about themselves again. Not to mention that the pseudo schlongs would be much safer than handguns.

In the unlikely event that someone did get drunk and whip out his phony phalus and try to beat his wife or kids to death, the physical damage inflicted would be significantly less than several bullets to the brain.

axe - never bring a limp dildo to a gunfight.

axe - never bring a limp dildo to a gunfight.

#7 | Posted by nanc

Bring your dick instead, Annie Oakley?

-never bring a limp dildo to a gunfight.

But, but Eddie does so like a good gunfight!

#6 | Posted by axe

Why are anti-gun dipshits always so obsessed with dick?

I predict the Constitution will trump Chicago's laws.

I hope that you are right but I doubt it.

While I love our Constitution, it should not be set in stone. All species must adapt to survive. The crime-ridden urban streets where guns are easier to find than a grocery store was not something our founder fathers could have foreseen. We must adapt our laws to our current situation.

Rather than waste large sums of the taxpayers' money and the valuable time of the Supreme Court, why doesn't Chicago just purcase artificial cocks for the dickless bastards that need handguns to feel like a real man?

#6 | Posted by axe at 2009-09-30 02:08 PM


Yes, it's so safe in Chicago, there are hardly any gun crimes. Why would anyone need to protect themselves?

I hope that you are right but I doubt it

Me too but commonsense will eventually return to the SC at some point in the future in the meantime the majority of states and municipalities have better sense than to trample on an individual citizen's rights GUARANTEED by the 2nd Amendment


The same thread is being posted to, on the Retort's Back Page.

While I love our Constitution, it should not be set in stone. All species must adapt to survive. The crime-ridden urban streets where guns are easier to find than a grocery store was not something our founder fathers could have foreseen. We must adapt our laws to our current situation.

#3 | Posted by hope4hope at 2009-09-30 03:09 PM


Handguns are illegal in Chicago, and yet they 'are easier to find than a grocery store'.

It will be an interesting case to follow.

While I love our Constitution, it should not be set in stone. All species must adapt to survive. The crime-ridden urban streets where guns are easier to find than a grocery store was not something our founder fathers could have foreseen. We must adapt our laws to our current situation.

#3 | Posted by hope4hope at 2009-09-30 03:09 PM

If you think "banning" handguns is going to get rid of them, then I have a bridge to sell.

Why are anti-gun dipshits always so obsessed with dick?

#10 | Posted by jpw at 2009-09-30 02:21 PM

I'm beginning to think Axe is very sexually repressed and frustrated, or that he had some strange sexual child hood experience that led him to associate guns with dicks.

Axe is one of those who talks about penis size a lot, too.

We can only guess why.

Well you focus on axe has reasons doesn't goatman.

Well you focus on axe has reasons doesn't goatman.

???

Commenting on his posting style constitutes "focus"?

I'd say you are focusing on me. You are an odd duck, runnysore.

#13 | Posted by goatman at 2009-09-30 03:55 PM

#14 | Posted by moneywar at 2009-09-30 03:55 PM

Wow. You've stuck yourself pretty tightly to Goat's ass haven't you?

Well you focus on axe has reasons doesn't goatman.

Couldn't even take the time to type a coherent sentence...

Couldn't even take the time to type a coherent sentence...

Nope, why do you care?

Handguns are illegal in Chicago, and yet they 'are easier to find than a grocery store'.

I said "crime-ridden urban streets." (Those neighborhoods where bars are on all the windows never seem to have a grocery store. It bugs me.)

If you think "banning" handguns is going to get rid of them, then I have a bridge to sell.

I agree. Making the guns illegal will not get rid of them. But the cities believe it is a tool they can use to cope with the problem. I have no idea if it will work but I don't blame them for wanting to try it.

But the argument that the Constitution says it so it has to remain this way forever, forever amen is wrong. We must adapt our laws to our current situation.

Nope, why do you care?

I don't really. I just goes to show how badly you want to fuck with Goatman.

It's actually kind of creepy, like the little boy who likes a girl so he throws mud in her hair.

But the argument that the Constitution says it so it has to remain this way forever, forever amen is wrong. We must adapt our laws to our current situation.

#9 | Posted by hope4hope at 2009-09-30 04:08 PM

What other amendments should be thrown out?

By the way, the constitution can be changed, just not on the whims of one city.

???

Commenting on his posting style constitutes "focus"?

I'd say you are focusing on me. You are an odd duck, runnysore.

#15 | Posted by goatman at 2009-09-30 04:01 PM

I'm just impressed you were able to respond to that as if it were written in English.

"It's actually kind of creepy, like the little boy who likes a girl so he throws mud in her hair."

Sounds like Goatman's crush on Bob.

Sounds like Goatman's crush on Bob.

And yours on me.

"The same thread is being posted to, on the Retort's Back Page."
#5 | Posted by Roy_Batty

Ummmm, this IS the back page.

What other amendments should be thrown out?

Hopefully not many. The authors were brilliant but not psychic.

By the way, the constitution can be changed, just not on the whims of one city.

Yes, I'm glad the Chicago ban is working its way through our justice system.

I predict the Constitution will trump Chicago's laws.
.....#1 | Posted by goatman

......the Constitution includes regulating gun ownership......

Ummmm, this IS the back page.

#11 | Posted by KBM at 2009-09-30 04:43 PM


When I posted that, this thread was on the front page, it was moved to the back page.

" I said 'crime-ridden urban streets.' "

That's Chicago all right.

Wednesday April 23, 2008
Chicago has been hit by a gun crime surge which saw nine people killed in 36 separate shooting incidents last weekend.
news.sky.com

Gun advocates predict drop in crime if gun ban is lifted
www.suntimes.com

'Allow' Chicago residents to defend themselves with firearms? YES! Crime would go down. That Grandma is PACKING! The 'gangstas' are getting their guns regardless of law.

Honestly I don't care about liberal city law. Stay the fuck out of my State. That's why you live where you live and I live where I live.

axe - never bring a limp dildo to a gunfight.

#7 | Posted by nanc at 2009-09-30 02:10 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

I thought they would only go limp if You microwaved it.

I HAVE A CRUSH ON ALL YOU!!!!!!

I want the right to cary a loaded rocket propelled grenade launcher. My 2nd amendment right is being infringed upon.

Back off Goatman.

Nulli is my bitch.

Back off Booij and Goatman.

Null is MY bi***. :)

Looks like I have a real 3 Stooges of bitches: GoatbOob, Bijouboy, and Lisa.

GoatbOob is a low blow....really low. Insult his mother, kick his dog, burn down his home, but please do not call any BoOb.

From Nanc's link:

Since 2001, the United States has charged about 120 defendants with the material support of terrorism and about half have been convicted, the Justice Department said.

The Feds normally have a conviction rate somewhere around 92%.
If they're only able to secure conviction 50% of the time on "material support of terrorism," something stinks.

***

One little problem with your post.
Roe v Wade is not in the Bill of Rights.

No, it's in the 14th Amendment.

In Maryland you are allowed to have a gun in your home. I guess that's the only place you are supposed to defend yourself. It is next to impossible to get a permit to carry a gun in MD. I really hope this case does challenge states banning and restricting guns. The area I live in has gotten so bad with gang (bloods) bullshit that I have been considering just carrying without a permit.

Looks like I have a real 3 Stooges of bitches: GoatbOob, Bijouboy, and Lisa.

I think this is the fourth time this evening that nully has referenced me without my saying anything to him.

And he calls me the troll?

LOL

#27 | Posted by nullifidian at 2009-09-30 09:15 PM | Reply | Flag: *sniff* (_*_) < ---goatman's ass

"I want the right to cary a loaded rocket propelled grenade launcher. My 2nd amendment right is being infringed upon."

There's always some anti gun poster that attempts to make this same argument.

Must be a graduate of the BBob school of posting.

'Allow' Chicago residents to defend themselves with firearms? YES! Crime would go down. That Grandma is PACKING! The 'gangstas' are getting their guns regardless of law.

Honestly I don't care about liberal city law. Stay the fuck out of my State. That's why you live where you live and I live where I live.

"Must be a graduate of the BBob school of posting."

Nah. they want car antennas.
I say drop the whole car on 'em from a great height.

#27

Hey!!! I just needed you to be my bi*** for a couple of hours.

I was going to have you clean my oven! That's all!!

"There's always some anti gun poster that attempts to make this same argument."

But isn't that the same argument as the pro-gun posters: that limitations = infringement? If you agree we can't/shouldn't be able to carry a grenade launcher, you've already agreed on a line. The debate, after that, is exactly where to draw that line.

I believe that the founding fathers were actually talking about guns, they had cannons back then and they didn't say everyone can have a cannon did they.

The debate isn't about where to draw the line, the debate is about allowing/not allowing people to carry guns. I mean come on everyone knows that the only people carrying rocket launchers or driving vw micro buses are libyan terrorists, haven't you seen Back To The Future, jeez.

I have been considering just carrying without a permit.

#30 | Posted by Profit

It's better to be caught with a gun than without one.

"I have been considering just carrying without a permit."

Everybody else in Chicago is.

I love gun stories on DR, all the bat-shit, bed-wetters come out to play.

The Second Amendment is very clear, the right to bear arms.

And, if any of you dipshits took the time to actully research the person who wrote the 2nd Amd. (James Madison), you would see/read that it was his intention that the population would have the right to the same arms as the gov't does. And, yes, if you are sane, pass your background check, are a responsible adult, you should be able to own a grenade launcher.

You CANNOT argue the FACT that when law abiding citizens are armed, the community is safer. Yes, there will always be the nut job that goes crazy and kills family/co-workers/self, but 99.9% of gun owners abide by the law. It is an infringement when any local gov't. passes "gun laws".

And I promise you, my .45 will always win against your dildo.

...Back To The Future, jeez.

#37 | Posted by Profit

NICE!!!!

Wait I thought the weapon of choice in chi-town was pieces of railroad ties?

"And, yes, if you are sane, pass your background check, are a responsible adult, you should be able to own a grenade launcher."

Does that go for a nuclear-tipped warhead as well, or are you trying to infringe on my right of self-defense?

One little problem with your post.
Roe v Wade is not in the Bill of Rights.

No, it's in the 14th Amendment.

#29 | Posted by snoofy

Might want to review that again friend...

So instead of railroad ties and boards the teens will have guns to kill honor roll students?

And I promise you, my .45 will always win against your dildo.

Posted by seedeez2

How do we know you're even qualified to use it, take your word for it?

Uh Murph the gang members in Chicago already have guns because criminals do not follow laws. Weather gun laws or any other law.
That is why gun laws FAIL.

And I promise you, my .45 will always win against your dildo.

Posted by seedeez2

You need a gun to defend yourself against a dildo? You retarded gun slingers sure are pussies. Afraid to walk in the woods without a gun and now afraid of rubber sex toys. What a bunch of girlie boys.

I wonder how a dildo would fare against a car antennae?

There will be no ban on handguns by the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court is an institution not only of law but of politics. If the Supreme Court allowed cities to ban handguns I firmly believe there will be a civil war in this country.

I swear too many men think wning a gun makes them manly. I mean come on they place their Guns right in the back window of their pickem ups. They cut the heads off of their kills and place them on their walls proclaiming their "Masculinity" Why shoot(Pun Intended) how many times did Zatoichi post His snake that He blew away with a gun on here at the retort. Bunch of God Damned bullshit deluxe.

Larry

L8rs Housework

I wonder how a dildo would fare against a car antennae?

"Dueling Dildos"

There must be a low-budget porn movie in there somewhere.

L8rs Housework

#51 | Posted by LarryMohr at 2009-09-30 10:38

You can work on my place next. Thanks.

#53

Will you come clean my oven??

Gimme_A_Poor_Excuse_For_A_Maid won't do it, Null won't do it....and I don't want to ruin my nails.

Excellent....

"Gimme_A_Poor_Excuse_For_A_Mai
d won't do it, Null won't do it...."

I don't have anything to do with your gossipy little chitchat with "Gimme" so leave me out of it. Thanks.

Count on the liberal mestizo to vote against the 2nd amendment. Latrinos vote in lockstep with all of the demorat-liberal brainwashing.

If everyone except convicted felons were allowed to carry a one-shot .22 derringer concealed, violent crime would evaporate even if accidental shootings would increase.

Null, I mentioned you because of the couple of posts that lead you to include me as one of your three stooges and my response back to you.

Sorry if it upset you, that wasn't my intent. I was just nuts'n around.

" include me as one of your three stooges "

Forgot about that. That was years ago in blog time.

"If the Supreme Court allowed cities to ban handguns I firmly believe there will be a civil war in this country." -UTASTAFF

And if that happened whose side would you want to be on...
-the winy liberal goose steppers and leftists
-or the rednecks and rightwingers

I mean whoever has the guns seems would win, and we all know who has guns in this Country.

I mean whoever has the guns seems would win, and we all know who has guns in this Country.

Post 9/11, that would be the cops. Did you see how they were dressed in Pittsburgh?

A "well-regulated militia" of citizen gun owners wouldn't stand a chance.

Momma Put My Guns Into the Ground
I Can't Shoot Them Anymore
That Long Black Cloud Is Coming Down
I Feel I'm Knockin on Heaven's Door
Knock Knock knockin on Heaven's Door

Just a quick note. The very BEST way to clean an oven is to bake two lemon "Pies" what You do is get You two large deep baking dishes. Put enough water in each to reach half way point. Then add You some 1/4thed Lemons making sure You perferate the lemon wedges hymen so the juices can escape and place them in each baking dish. Put in the middle racked oven and bake on 350 between 45 minutes to an hour depending upon filthiness. Let the blasted thing cool before opening it up and then take Your dishes out and take damp sponge with bucket of mildly hot water and wipe clean. Repeat as necessary. No chemical fumes and Your kitchen smells great.

Larry

Just a quick note. The very BEST way to clean an oven

Okay. Who else is surprised to learn Larry is a woman?

:)

I mean whoever has the guns seems would win, and we all know who has guns in this Country.

Uh.

The government has all the guns, in this country, dumbass.

For the few million guns in the hands of private citizens, the government has access to weaponry above and beyond anything I can legally own.

#63 | Posted by LarryMohr at 2009-10-01 12:38 AM | Reply | Flag:

Posting shit like this and you have the nerve to question the manhood of someone who owns guns for hunting?

Put on your apron, Nancy. Your husband will be home for dinner soon and you know how he gets when it's not hot and on the table when he walks in the door.

Hey Aziom I would appreciate it greatly if You would not make up posts that I never penned. I think it's only fair.

Larry

That was profit NOT I who penned that argument.

Axiom too

One of the things that I love about this country is the presumption of innocence that is supposed to exist in our legal system.
Laws governing the ownership or carrying of guns violate that principle.
The assumption seems to be that if you own or carry guns you have evil intentions.
I would like to see almost all laws governing the ownership or carrying of guns abolished.
I would like to see laws regarding the use or misuse of guns to be extremely tough and rigidly enforced. This should include accidental discharge of a gun. Use of a weapon of any kind in the furtherence of any other crime would incur a long jail sentence whether the person was succesful in commiting the crime or not.
If you kill or injure a person, if you damage property or even just scare the hell out of someone with the noise you had better have real justification for the discharge of that weapon or face serious jail time. Protection of yourself or someone else from death or injury would be adequate justification. Protection of property would not be justification for shooting any person.
Too many people, and the laws in certain places assume that because I own guns that I want to kill someone or something. That is nowhere near the truth.

More to the point, I fear that SCOTUS will do little to resolve the debate.

#82 | Posted by Axiom - i was at a townhall meeting; the children were at church and he worked late trying to beat the rain - thank you for your concern; he's able to take care of himself. that and i left some bbq ribs, scalloped potatoes and bacon fried fresh green beans in the fridge for him to heat up.

It's better to be caught with a gun than without one.
.....#54 | Posted by Beachbuzz

.......you might like to talk that over with Plaxico Burress.......

.....he's got a few years of spare time on his hands.......

I mean whoever has the guns seems would win,
.......#77 | Posted by Profit

....actually.....

.....as the police would continue to uphold the law....

....whoever had the guns would get the longest jail sentences.......

#83 | Posted by LarryMohr at 2009-10-01 05:10 AM | Reply | Flag:

Uhrr..

I copied and pasted the byline. I didn't make that up. Blame the site, cause I didn't type it.

Either way, my #82 was in reply to your #67.

""Dueling Dildos"
There must be a low-budget porn movie in there somewhere."

Orgazmo. Zack and Miri Make a Porno.

More seriously, I don't agree with the premise that the second amendment is very clear. The Constitution is interpretable--that's _why_ we have a supreme court. Doesn't that part about a militia mean anything to you folks? It was _protection from oppressive government_. Because we have the Bill of Rights, that very protection seems to me less necessary. But then, there were lefties who feared that the Bush administration was going to round us up. Just as there are righties who fear that Obama and "his gang" will put them in re-education camps. Jesus, if that's true, I may be fucked as well. I am indeed a liberal, but I have questioned Obama's actions right out loud and fairly publicly. Hell, most of us on DR would be subject to re-education.

Maybe I should go buy some guns.

"Too many people, and the laws in certain places assume that because I own guns that I want to kill someone or something. That is nowhere near the truth."

Really? How so? I'm not disagreeing, just wondering.

I know many hunters who own guns. Where I live, it's part of the culture. But handguns and automatic weapons seem like different beasts.

And I don't care what kinda weapons you got; if the gov't/police/military come after you, you will _not_ win. Doesn't mean we should give up on rights or on having the conversation, but "This way, I can fight off the gov't if they come" seems a limited argument. I could, with a few automatic weapons, successfully hold off my local constabulary, but only until they brought the Homeland Security truck over. Or called the FBI or whomever.

#92 | Posted by pragmatist

I am not sure what 'just wondering' means here.

You have to take my word for the fact that I have no interest in killing anything. That is what I mean by laws assuming otherwise.

The laws in Chicago seem to assume that ownership or the carrying of a gun implies evil intent.

My interest in guns centers on the skill required to shoot quickly and accurately.

As a machine, a well designed, well built gun is a thing of beauty.

I don't hunt but have no moral or philosophical problem with those that do. I like a nice rare steak as much as anyone.

I have no illusion that I could stand off the government if the powers that be decided to take me into custody for any reason.

I do not frequent locations where it would behoove me to be armed in order to defend myself.

I should not be required to provide proof of my intentions. If you or the government suspect my motives for gun ownership you should be required to provide some evidence of my intention to use my guns in pursuit of some crime. The simple fact that I own or carry a gun should not be considered proof.

The 'you' in this statement is not intended as a personal accusation. It is a generic 'you' and refers to the general public.

Thanks, Cowboy. Sorry I was unclear.

"I am not sure what 'just wondering' means here."

I meant to say I was wondering in what ways the gun laws assume that you want to kill someone or something. As Lynyrd Skynyrd sang, "A handgun was made for killin'. Ain't no good for nothin' else." I understand the point of machine work, and I can even get behind the "thing of beauty" idea (sort of). I think guns are, um, sorta cool. But the designer's intent is to make something that kills; that seems fairly clear to me. : )

But anyway, what laws assume this, or in what ways do they assume it? You mean, by wanting a ban in the city? I think the idea behind such bans is about crime and the assumption inherent in the idea of a handgun. I don't see a use to a handgun other than hurting or killing--granted, that can be in defense... You, the actual you, seem to be into them for aesthetics and maybe target practice? My grandfather was a gun owner; he was a NH state trooper. My dad has a few rifles--for shooting foxes and other critters on the farm. I have no interest in a gun, but I certainly understand that many (most?) gun owners are indeed law-abiding, sane individuals. Too bad some people fuck up the impression we non-gun-owners have.

#26 Hope4hope> Making the guns illegal will not get rid of them. But the cities believe it is a tool they can use to cope with the problem. I have no idea if it will work but I don't blame them for wanting to try it.

Let me ask you a serious question about your last sentence. Let's say we (and millions of other citizens) agreed to *try* strict gun control measures to combat crime problems. Now let's say after 10 years or more, such measures did NOT bring down violent crime rates, and in fact such rates stayed the same or even rose. Would you and I then decide to abandon the schemes that didn't work and look for others that might work? Then why do cities such as Chicago cling to anti-Second Amendment laws which have failed miserably for many, many years?

Pragmatist,

It seems to me that the ouright banning of guns assumes that gun owners have bad intentions.

I realize that this is a simplification but sometimes simple is better.

Convicted felons may be assumed to have evil intent due to their history.

Those who have been convicted of some sort of violence can be assumed to have evil intent.

Those who are not 'on the books' so to speak should be assumed to be innocent of evil intent until proven otherwise.

It is a pleasure to engage in polite discourse.

#40 AndyB62> I want the right to cary a loaded rocket propelled grenade launcher. My 2nd amendment right is being infringed upon.

I saw something like this being argued in another forum once. It took a very funny turn when the anti-gun person said the 2nd Amendment applied *only* to muskets and other such weapons available at the time it was written. To which the gun-rights person responded, "So you'd have no problem with me carrying a couple of blackpowder handguns with me everywhere I go, right?"

The argument then degenerated quickly. If the 2nd Amendment only covers weapons available at the time it was written, then logically the 1st Amendment doesn't apply to media such as TV/internet/etc. that wasn't around in the late 1700's.

There WERE privately owned cannons and even armed ships during the Revolutionary war. Odd, but true.

#92 Pragmatist> I know many hunters who own guns. Where I live, it's part of the culture.

Not that I'm casting doubt on you, but many anti-gun folks in the political realm try to claim that the 2nd Amendment is about hunting, when clearly it had nothing to do with it. When Al Gore ran for President, he had Tommy Lee Jones doing public radio spots saying Gore had no interest in taking guns away from hunters. That was only partly true, but it sidestepped the issue of the 2nd Amendment.

>But handguns and automatic weapons seem like different beasts.

Well, one can use a handgun for hunting, but they are generally designed as compact weapons for self-defense. I've carried a handgun in places where larger animals lived, and would have preferred a rifle but size and weight were important considerations. And with a holster I can draw a handgun much faster than I can retrieve a rifle carried on a shoulder with a sling.

Automatic weapons have been regulated in the U.S. since the 1934 National Firearms Act (NFA). Some states have banned ownership entirely. Reagan placed further bans on importation and manufacture after Jim Brady got shot (said shooting incident had absolutely nothing to do with automatic weapons, btw). The only criminal use of a legal, automatic weapon that I've ever heard of was an off-duty police officer. But a small submachinegun like a Uzi or MP5 would make a pretty decent self-defense weapon, IMHO.

"It is a pleasure to engage in polite discourse."

Yes, it is, Cowboy. Thank you. It's what I try for. And I appreciate your clarifying--I thought that was what you had in mind; I just wanted to be sure. I don't think I agree that such is the premise, but as you say, polite discourse. : )

"Not that I'm casting doubt on you, but many anti-gun folks in the political realm try to claim that the 2nd Amendment is about hunting, when clearly it had nothing to do with it. When Al Gore ran for President, he had Tommy Lee Jones doing public radio spots saying Gore had no interest in taking guns away from hunters. That was only partly true, but it sidestepped the issue of the 2nd Amendment."

I wasn't extending that exact argument. I was, poorly, getting at the idea that I understand rifles for hunting, and I support their existence and the rights to own them. I don't understand handguns; for the most part, they are not realistic for hunting (or so I'm told by those who hunt, and it makes sense to me, from my understanding of how guns work, but I don't know where you've been and I'm not calling you wrong, just that I've never heard your argument). And your assertion about self-defense is in line what I'm saying--they're made for killing (or seriously hurting) _people_. And a small submachine gun for self-defense? Wow. That's some serious defense ya gotta mount. Talk about hunting! ; )

I guess what I don't get is the self-defense argument. How many of us really _need_ to defend ourselves in such a serious way? I think the argument "They're cool and I should be able to have one if I'm not a criminal" is much more honest. (Not saying that's your argument, AKAT.)

If you think "banning" handguns is going to get rid of them, then I have a bridge to sell.
#19 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE

I agree.
What I find interesting is the violence that's broken out in Chicago by those using boards, pipes and other melee weapons instead of guns. "Safty w/o having guns" is a fictitious notion. One could look at the term "Gun" in the same way as we define an "foot". The foot is fabricated by man as a gauge to determine distances. In other countries, they prefer the meter. In a similar effect, we have these things called "guns" and they're thought (by some) to be the enablers of easily-executable violent crimes. I argue that there will always be the "gun" ...even it eventually comes down to being rocks, pipes, a bow & arrow, prison shanks, or home-made bombs. What I mean is, what the public generally sees as the "gun" isn't a constant one. It slides up and down with the times as new technologies and laws are put into place. Man will always innovate new ways around the obstacles that stand in their way. By lawing out guns only gives a false sense of security to those who don't understand what they are.

Rather than waste large sums of the taxpayers' money and the valuable time of the Supreme Court, why doesn't Chicago just purcase artificial cocks for the dickless bastards that need handguns to feel like a real man?

#6 | Posted by axe

Why? Is your mouth empty?

Your post has got to be the stupidist one of the day.

While I love our Constitution, it should not be set in stone. All species must adapt to survive. The crime-ridden urban streets where guns are easier to find than a grocery store was not something our founder fathers could have foreseen. We must adapt our laws to our current situation.

#13 | Posted by hope4hope

I guess that would apply to the entire bill of rights? Lets get rid of numbers 4,5, and 6. We don't need them. Hell, while we are at it lets get rid of the first too.

......the Constitution includes regulating gun ownership......

#34 | Posted by skizziks

Where do you find that? Please point that article out to me.

#99 Pragmatist> I guess what I don't get is the self-defense argument. How many of us really _need_ to defend ourselves in such a serious way? I think the argument "They're cool and I should be able to have one if I'm not a criminal" is much more honest. (Not saying that's your argument, AKAT.)

I appreciate your honesty. Rights are never about 'needs', after all, who 'needs' desktop publishing software, or a bullhorn, or a personal printer/copyier/etc, or unhindered access to internet web sites (ala China). In communist countries, many such items were regulated because people could use them to print handbills or flyers advocating things that the government was against.

The right to keep and bear arms, as the 2nd Amendment states, "shall not be infringed". In current legal parlance, rights can only be abridged or infringed due to judicial process. For example, if I were convicted of a felony, some of my legal rights would then be taken away because I was given a trial and found guilty. As long as we don't have kangeroo courts, almost all citizens would be agreeable.

The problem comes in when some politician, such as Schumer for example, decides that nobody outside law enforcement or the military needs a weapon such as an 'assault rifle'. And he (and others) then go on to define such a weapon based on COSMETIC features. The fact that such weapons are used in a tiny percentage of all gun related crimes is completely ignored. Handguns have also been demonized by more than a few politians, including those who would prefer an outright ban of them.

Handguns, btw, are a good choice for self-defense because they are compact, fairly easy to use, widely available (through legal dealers, I'm ignoring illegal means here), and not too expensive. The average man/woman can be trained in their safe usage much easier than most other available weapons. And they *have* been used many millions of times for self-defense, almost always without being fired. Criminologist Dr. Gary Kleck estimates between 1-1.5 MILLION self-defense uses each year in the U.S., almost always without a shot being fired. I think it is mainly due to the fact that most criminals don't want to get shot while plying their trade.

If a woman uses a handgun to prevent an attack, rape, or murder, I'm personally pleased that she is still around and breathing. If the perp gets shot, well, too bad for him. And if the perp dies, I figure she has saved the judicial system a lot of money AND prevent that same criminal from trying the same thing with countless other women.

Btw, thanks for your politeness in discussing this issue. Even if we end up on opposite sides of the issue, it has certainly been a breath of fresh air on DR!

Where do you find that? Please point that article out to me.
.....#103 | Posted by Sniper

......the same Second Amendment that permits you to have the weapons, states that the they should be "well regulated".....you can call "regulations" gun control, gun regulations, gun laws, but the meaning of regulation is still regulation.......

The Second Amendment:
A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed.

Well Regulated
The Random House College Dictionary (1980) gives four definitions for the word "regulate," which were all in use during the Colonial period and one more definition dating from 1690 (Oxford English Dictionary, 2nd Edition, 1989). They are:
1) To control or direct by a rule, principle, method, etc.
2) To adjust to some standard or requirement as for amount, degree, etc.
3) To adjust so as to ensure accuracy of operation.
4) To put in good order.

#105 Skizziks> the same Second Amendment that permits you to have the weapons, states that they should be "well regulated"

One serious flaw here: the 2nd Amendment's 'regulation' is for militias, not the weapons themselves. Thanks for your definition, based on the founders many comments, I think #3 and #4 fits their definition.

"The first and governing maxim in the interpretation
of a statute is to discover the meaning of those who
made it."
-James Wilson, Of the Study of Law in the United
States, 1790

NEGATORY No matter how much I would dearly love to be rid of guns. The Second AMerndment pertains to the Collective INDIVIDUAL and NOT the States. Remember the first nine pertains to the INDIVIDUAL and the Tenth was reserved for the States.

Larry

Second Amendment has no regulations.

One serious flaw here: the 2nd Amendment's 'regulation' is for militias, not the weapons themselves.
#106 | Posted by AKat at

......if you are "regulating" an armed militia, how can the "arms" fall outside of the regulations ??.....

......I see nothing in the second amendment that excludes "regulating" the arms, as regulation is specifically mentioned......

Second Amendment has no regulations.
....#107 | Posted by LarryMohr

.....it has no detailed regulations......

....but it specifically calls for them, it almost seems as if the Founders did not want to get bogged down in details.......

Here is another analogy I like to use against people who oppose gun ownership but are supportive of free speech (I support both, btw). I ask them if the 1st Amendment allows people to yell "fire" in a crowded movie theater. They always say no.

I then remind them that we do not apply gags to movie goers to prevent them from yelling fire. And I then go on to tell them it is perfectly legal to yell "fire" in a movie theater ... if there happens to be a fire.

Why not treat ownership of firearms to the same restrictions? Punish misuse, not potential misuse, just like we largely do with other Constitutional Rights?

adams.patriot.net

.....it has no detailed regulations......

....but it specifically calls for them, it almost seems as if the Founders did not want to get bogged down in details.......

#109 | Posted by skizziks at 2009-10-01 01:11 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

No it actually doesn't. Every able bodied man was required to have rifle and ammo at the ready in frontier days. That is the reason why the Second Amendment came about. The only part that is relavent is the last part.

Larry

If the Second Amendment doesn't apply to the states as it does apply to DC, none of the other amendments do either.

The only part that is relavent is the last part.
....Larry

....I think that is open to interpretation.....

...it's obvious that the Founders could not have foreseen all the changes that would require "regulation" , but the "well regulated" did not specifically exclude regulation of the fire-arms themselves........

#109 Skizziks> it has no detailed regulations

I would agree.

>but it specifically calls for them

I will disgree. The text itself:

"A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed."

The term "well regulated" applies to the "Militia" and is not connected to the keeping and bearing of "Arms". In fact, if the Arms are being regulated so as to prevent peacable citizens from purchasing/possessing/keeping them, then the Militia would not be able to exist.

A link with some good, brief info:

www.guncite.com

I had an article years back written by a fairly liberal Constitutional Law professor that went into great detail of the meaning of the 2nd Amendment. I was pleasantly surprised at his honesty and scholarly treatment.

Just found another quote from an old Brady Center (anti-gun-rights) handout:

"According to the NRA, the Second AMendment's guarantee of a 'right to keep and bear arms' is as broad and fundamental as the First Amendment freedoms of speech, assembly and the press. The NRA has even argued that citizens have a constitutional right to own machine guns and military-style assault weapons!"

I agree with the NRA's stance as given in the first sentence. And I've agree with the second sentence, funny that "military-STYLE" (emphasis mine) is something to be verboten! LOL!

Punish misuse, not potential misuse, just like we largely do with other Constitutional Rights?
......#110 | Posted by AKat

......let's take the same analogy....only instead of with guns, with dynamite ......

......should people be able to keep dynamite and play with it, as long as they don't blow up any innocent person, and then, and only then, should they be punished under the law ??.......

.....point is that having a gun in your house is like having dynamite around....when used, guns are mainly used on a homes residents in an accident or a fit of rage or depression.......

......guns pose more danger to the people who own them, than to anyone else.......

Skizziks, the article I mentioned was by Prof. Lawrence Tribe, but I have been unable to find an online version. I did find a similar article by Prof. Sanford Levinson that was originally printed in the Yale Law Journal (vol. 99, pp. 637-659).

www.firearmsandliberty.com

.....and....I can concede that the second amendment may in fact guarantee the freedom to own fire-arms.....

.....but the Founders, living in an agrarian age, were not faced with 10 thousand gun deaths, and 40 thousand gun cripplings per year......

.....maybe it's time for a new amendment guaranteeing freedom FROM guns.......

#116 Skizziks> ......let's take the same analogy....only instead of with guns, with dynamite ......
>......should people be able to keep dynamite and play with it, as long as they don't blow up any innocent person, and then, and only then, should they be punished under the law ??.......

Funny thing: I remember going into hardware stores and buying dynamite and blasting caps (actually my grandfather did) with no regulations whatsoever. The people behind the counter wanted to make sure he didn't buy more than he needed to do the job of blasting stumps. Oddly enough, people didn't go around blowing up federal buildings back then either.

Prior to McVeigh's stunt, the largest death toll in the U.S. from people wanting to kill other people (ie non-military) was arson (492). Should we restrict gasoline and matches?

en.wikipedia.org

>guns pose more danger to the people who own them, than to anyone else

I'd disagree. If that were true the number of suicides (intentional) and accidental deaths (unintentional) by firearms would be far higher than deaths to criminals shot while pursuing their livelihood (by cops and civilians combined). Accidental firearms deaths have largely trended downwards for several decades, mainly due to the safety efforts of groups like NRA, GOA, and sports/hunting related groups.

#118 Skizziks>

A new Amendment to negate or cancel the 2nd Amendment is the only honest recourse, as far as I'm concerned. Of course, I'd fight it tooth and nail, but no surprise there, eh? ;^)

>guns pose more danger to the people who own them, than to anyone else

I'd disagree.
#119 | Posted by AKat

....you'd be wrong on that one......

.....of gunshot victims, 56% are the gun owners themselves committing suicide, then there are people accidentally shooting themselves, then accidentally shooting family members and other innocents......

....while guns used on criminals make the headlines , that situation for civilians, is actually very rare......

.....the people most at danger from a gun are the people who live in the same household with it.....

.....sometime ago we had discussions on this site when a three year old shot his father, then another when a six year old shot and killed another six year old......

....that discussion ended with "guns don't kill six year olds, six year olds kill six year olds"....

#116 | Posted by skizziks

......should people be able to keep dynamite and play with it, as long as they don't blow up any innocent person, and then, and only then, should they be punished under the law ??.......

Short answer is yes.

Skiz,

The problem is you are counting suicide in the gun death numbers. Blaming a suicide on the gun is really really bad logic. I am at work and I can see three ways to off myself without moving more than swivling my chair. As far as the kids shooting folks that is 100% the parents fault for not having a propper gun safe. Also for not educating their children.

Personaly I don't own a gun or see a need too. However I do not see any reason to keep any other father from protecting his family in any way he sees fit.

#121 | Posted by skizziks
[CITATION(s) NEEDED]

According to the 1997 Survey of State Prison Inmates, among those possessing a gun, the source of the gun was from -

* a flea market or gun show for fewer than 2%
* a retail store or pawnshop for about 12%
* family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source for 80%
www.policyalmanac.org

Of all nonfatal firearm-related injuries treated in emergency departments, 62% were known to have resulted from an assault.
www.ojp.usdoj.gov

How Are Victims Injured?

* Assault Injury: 43,592 / 68% of All Injuries
* Unsuccessful Suicide Attempt: 3,352 (may be incorrect -- actual number may be larger, see CDC website) / 5% of All Injuries
* Accidental Injury: 16,555 / 26% of All Injuries
washingtonceasefire.org

Short answer is yes.
....#122 | Posted by Cowboy

....well....if that's the type of world you want to live in......

.....there are many people who would agree with you......I'm not one of them.....I have worked in the social services field, and I am acutely aware of what tenous links many seemingly normal people have with reality, how close many people are to "blowing up" figuratively.......I would'nt want to give them the literal means to do it.....because one day, they would......

Skiz,

You know the first person ever to go "postal" used a bow and arrow and killed 6 people before he was incapacitated.

Not really any real point in that factoid but there it is for you if you want to stop crazy people from killing you better ban bows as soon as your done with guns.

Blaming a suicide on the gun is really really bad logic.
#123 | Posted by TaoWarrior

.....not really......

....I have seen studies that indicate that the availability of guns contributes to suicide....if people had to do it the hard way by hanging themselves or jumping off a roof, they have time to change their minds...and frequently do.......

....what it does not change is my premise.......

....that the greatest inherent danger in a gun, is to the gun owner's household.......

Distribution of fatal and nonfatal firearm-related injuries by intent.

www.cdc.gov

#127 | Posted by skizziks at 2009-10-01 02:01 PM | Reply | Flag: bullshit

Not really any real point in that factoid but there it is for you if you want to stop crazy people from killing you better ban bows as soon as your done with guns.
.....#126 | Posted by TaoWarrior

.....I could just see the brothers in the hood carrying a bow and arrows around trying to look cool......

....I live near Tampa.....we get at least one teenager a week killed by a gun, and then another two or three go to jail for life for being with the shooter......its a monumental waste.....

#127 | Posted by skizziks at 2009-10-01 02:01 PM | Reply | Flag: bullshit

#129 | Posted by Zatoichi

.....its not bullshit......but are you really going to make me work and look up the stuff ?.....

Studies show that, statistically speaking, a gun in the home is more dangerous than protective. Some facts, according to the Brady Campaign:
More children, teenagers and adult family members are killed by firearms in their own home than by criminal intruders.
Guns kept in the home for protection are 22 times more likely to be used to kill someone you know than to kill in self-defense, according to a 1998 study in The Journal of Trauma.
The risk of homicide in the home is three times greater in households with guns.
The unintentional firearm-related death rate for children up to age 14 is nine times higher in the United States than in 25 other countries combined, according to a study by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
There's a loaded gun in 10 percent of households with children; and there's a gun that's hidden but not locked away in one in every eight family homes. Not surprisingly, a study last year found that homicide rates are highest in states where more households have guns. Topping that list: Wyoming, Alaska and Montana.
"Our findings suggest that in the United States, household firearms may be an important source of guns used to kill children, women and men, both on the street and in their homes," said the lead researcher of that study, Matthew Miller of the Harvard School of Public Health.

www.livescience.com

....well......up above is part of it.....I can get more if you want......

...but the fact is......a gun in your house is more likely to kill a loved one than anyone else......

....you want to live with that ?.....it's your choice.....your family.......

.....I mean you never know........

.....you might be doing the world a favor by letting your kids play with guns......

"Btw, thanks for your politeness in discussing this issue. Even if we end up on opposite sides of the issue, it has certainly been a breath of fresh air on DR!"

Ditto. I think I'll step away from the conversation now, only because of time... I find the issue rather intriguing, and to hear gun rights advocates talk about it without the "Pry from my cold hands" rhetoric is, as you say, fresh. Bracing even.

when I hold you in my arms and I feel my finger on your trigger then I know

happiness is a warm gun

yes it is

happine-e-ess is a warm gun

bang bang shoot shoot

...but the fact is......a gun in your house is more likely to kill a loved one than anyone else......

....you want to live with that ?.....it's your choice.....your family.......

#134 | Posted by skizziks at 2009-10-01 02:18 PM | Reply | Fl

Long disproven myth. Like so many urban legends the anti-gunners put out there.

See:
www.guncite.com
www.gunfacts.info

Unlike the Brady Campaign and VPC, these places cite federal and other non-partisan studies.

I don't know about more likely, but certainly there are stories (yes, factual) of children who kill their siblings by mistake. One cannot therefore extrapolate greater likelihood, nor can one assume that all gun owners are lazy, irresponsible, or trying to make up for a small penis.

But it does happen. Small children kill other small children. By mistake. And those parents should be... I don't know what; they've lost a child, and the guilt must be incredible, but part of me wants to prosecute them. Lock and key is a good idea.

Tangent: When we were shopping for daycare for our first child, we met with centers and with individual providers. One of our questions was about whether individuals have guns in their homes. So one person said yes, she did. We said something like, "Oh, for hunting." Her response was something like, "Oh, no. Just... you know, we have guns." No, I don't know. : )

I expect she may have been like some here--self-defense or appreciation of machinery. It was still a weird answer. (And no, we aren't completely anti-gun. But it's a safety issue. I would ask the same question of a parent to whose house my child was going to hang out with a friend. I'm not assuming anything, but it's a concern. The follow-up would be about safety. I grew up in a house with guns, well, part-time. They were in a locked cabinet until we were old enough to use them.)

family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source for 80%
Meaning those guns originated from a gun store, pawn shop, or gun show.

Unless Ollie North is up to his old tricks...

Prior to McVeigh's stunt, the largest death toll in the U.S. from people wanting to kill other people (ie non-military) was arson (492)
What about all those lynchings? Guns were involved in that portion of our history.

Every able bodied man was required to have rifle and ammo at the ready in frontier days.
Our history of utilizing the services of able-bodied men as slaves stands in stark opposition to this statement.

Then why do cities such as Chicago cling to anti-Second Amendment laws which have failed miserably for many, many years?
They have these laws on the books so that, when they round up the undesirables, they can hopefully prosecute them on an illegal weapons charge.

This is facinating.

I don't own a gun, but I've long been a supporter of private gun ownership (a matter of principle).

Arguments I view as valid AGAINST Gun Ownership:
--Public Order: Less injust occurs in orderly situation.
--Reduced frequency of "immediate anger" violence
--Stupid People: If no one has guns, then stupid people don't have them.

Arguments I view as valid FOR gun Ownership:
--Free People: The RIGHT of the INDIVIDUAL to be armed is the ultimate expression of not being OWNED. Being armed, in and of itself, is meaningless when talking of being a free people. North Korean soldiers are well armed.
--Public Order: How much "Public Order" we want is an issue. I like 'order', but I recognize that one can make VALID "save the children" arguments that in effect harm more people (children and otherwise) than they help. EXCESSIVE 'order' hurts more than it helps.
--Stupid People: If no one has guns, stupid violent people know it. It makes it MUCH easier for them to PLAN violence (Read about the Brit that was stabbed in the face this last week...)
--The Constitution: The 2nd Amendment is actually TWO rights. Jefferson sure as hell wanted an individual right. Adams sure as hell did NOT want the 'rabble' to have a right to guns except when supervised. Adams LOST that fight, and anyone who has ever picked up a history book knows it. The comment on militia was a sop for the Adams crowd, but the document granted an individual right.

Having said what I said above, I actually approve of using the "Local standards" idea, but I doubt it is Constitutional.

My BIGGEST annoyance at the anti-gun folks is that they DON'T try and amend the Constitution. Instead they try and LIE about the 2nd amendment.

"My BIGGEST annoyance at the anti-gun folks is that they DON'T try and amend the Constitution. Instead they try and LIE about the 2nd amendment."

Lie or interpret differently from your interpretation? Your ending comment at 141 is actually about interpretation--the motives are good to know, but we have to by the language, not intent. If we went by intent, well, 4/5 of a person ring a bell?

But amending is interesting. I actually don't know--do we have amendments that have changed the Bill of Rights?

You can "Amend" ANY part of the constitution, without limit.

You could even amend the official amendment process, with the new process affecting all future amendments (until the process is again amended).

On the issue of gun statistics.

Numbers tossed up by anti-gun folks comparing actual intruders shot vs number of bad/accidental shooting.......

are deceptive, and the folks posting those numbers KNOW IT.

When presenting those numbers,.....

....the FACT that for every actual intruder shot, several intruders or potential intruders are deterred from reaching the point of needing to shot,....

....must be covered.

To know if an anti-gun person is COMPLETELY not worth listening to, point out the above. If he gives it serious consideration (even if he remains anti-gun), then he is a 'thinking' anti-gun person. If he just blows it off, he is a 'non-thinking' anti-gun person.

MANY of the best arguments FOR guns are incidents that never actually happen BECAUSE of guns.

"You can "Amend" ANY part of the constitution, without limit."

Agreed, but that wasn't my question. : )

I don't know if I agree with your other conclusions, but I'm with you on this: "To know if an anti-gun person is COMPLETELY not worth listening to, point out the above. If he gives it serious consideration (even if he remains anti-gun), then he is a 'thinking' anti-gun person. If he just blows it off, he is a 'non-thinking' anti-gun person."

Substitute any issue for "anti-gun person." In any debate or discussion, both participants should operate this way, listening to the other side. And this inability is why so much of DR debate consists of trolling.

So instead of railroad ties and boards the teens will have guns to kill honor roll students?

#61 | Posted by MURPHY

News flash. Teens can't buy pistols or ger a concealed permit.

You can have my gun when you pry it... uh, not what I wanted to say...

I've seen the direct result of disarmed societies at the hands of not-so-well regulated militias of shall we say, differing viewpoints. I refer to Somalia, Sierra Leone, Boznia, Iraq and Afghanistan. Notice a trend?

As to crime, I grew up with loaded firearms propped up against the door, never occured to us to blast a neighbor or one another. I've carried (legally) 24-7 since 1990. I have brandished twice and drew once to prevent the victomization of my family. IMHO no argument against firearms training, ownership and carry has yet to present a better position to date.

#145 Whole-hearredly agree

What, the US Constitution doesn't extend to Chi Town?

"I have brandished twice and drew once to prevent the victomization of my family."

Where do you live? I'm not attempting to pick your argument apart or pick a fight. I am curious.

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