Yeah, we don't need no stinkin' fire departments. Let it all burn!

Keep on teabagging, chief.

Comic Gold.

Let's privatize the military!

Oh, wait a minute, we already did.

Never mind.

I don't think I've seen anyone but hardcore anarchists suggest that we shouldn't have socialized fire safety. I wonder why it keeps getting deflected to.

I don't think I've seen anyone but hardcore anarchists suggest that we shouldn't have socialized fire safety. I wonder why it keeps getting deflected to.

Because most people who trumpet this pathetic defense assume that everything comes from the Federal government. No state government, county government, city government...it's all DC.

Why should MY tax dollars be used to put out YOUR fires, and in some cases the fires of non-US citizens???

What?????

Our socialist fire departments are putting out the fires of illegal immigrants????

That's an outrage!!!!

Stop these "Government Redtrucks" from infringing on the rights of PRIVATE companies who can do it cheaper, and only for those who can afford it.

Too bad the Health Care Reformers can't take a serious look a cheapo MMS Protocol ($17 for over a year's supply) versus $30 a pop vacinations at Target Stores, but that's the way socialism works, aye?:>)

N E W S L E T T E R 0 0 6 T O P I C S

Topic 1. Jim Humble writes a draft message to the public about using MMS as a Flu deterrent.
Topic 2. Thoughts about pandemic forced vaccinations and the MMS family - getting ready.

Again I ask: Why are Liberals born with a brain? I mean, it's not like they use it much.

Why should MY tax dollars be used to put out YOUR fires, and in some cases the fires of non-US citizens???

Whatever happened to the belief in personal responsibility that made America great? Just think how much money the NY taxpayers would have saved on 9-11 if the owners of the WTC had taken care of their own responsibilities instead of sucking on the socialist tit of the NYFD and NYPD to cover their welfare scamming asses?

What if the RNC catches on fire? The dem controlled fire department will let it burn to the ground!

"Why are Liberals born with a brain? I mean, it's not like they use it much."

We need it to torture righties with outlandish socialist ideas like fire departments. I'm quite that publicly owned fire departments were one of those crazy liberal ideas.

You lefties are embarrasing yourselves in public. Let me help you out:

Most MT towns pay a fire chief. Improvements and maintenance of fire halls are payed through levies voted on in elections, most pass but some don't. Other than that our fire fighters are all VOLUNTEER. It works well because DC is NOT involved.

Wild fire fighters are paid through the state and sometimes reenforced by the MT Guard. We also send our well trained fighters to help other states such as CA in their efforts. During a bad year MT can have 600,000 million acres burned.

People in MT don't mind paying STATE taxes to fund these efforts.

"Other than that our fire fighters are all VOLUNTEER. It works well because DC is NOT involved."

That's fine and good. Now, do you want to try that same system in Chicago or New York??? Or any urban area??? Things that work perfectly well in a rural area are fine and that's great but just don't pretend that those same things would work where you have millions of people.
Oh, and BTW, you should also thank the Blue States for contributing to the welfare of your state occasionally.

"Among the biggest winners in 2003, for example, were New Mexico, at $1.99 for every tax dollar paid, followed closely by Alaska, Mississippi, North and South Dakota, Alabama and Montana -- the "red-ink states," as Ken Cook of the Environmental Working Group calls them."

That's fine and good. Now, do you want to try that same system in Chicago or New York??? Or any urban area???

#16 | Posted by danni

You mean this:

Most MT towns pay a fire chief. Improvements and maintenance of fire halls are payed through levies voted on in elections, most pass but some don't.

#15 | Posted by wurster

Hell Yes!!!

When ANY government is involved they might just put your house in front of a "death panel" and decide that it's not worth the money to come put it out.

Nazi Germany had fire departments everywhere!

the "red-ink states," as Ken Cook of the Environmental Working Group calls them."

You can tell Ken Cook MT sports a $500 million budget surplus. While not much money not 'red ink.' And as far a taking your 'blue state' money that may be true but a result of our big time wanna be Max Baucus. I think he can take his DC dollars and stick em right up his ass.

WTF is the MMS protocol anyways??

hmm, disregard the previous posting!

Fascist Socialistic Envirothug Communistic Fuhrer-following Stanlinistic Hitler-Wannabe Neo-Maoist Firefighting VietScum!

~JonRyker et al

I think privatizing firefighting services is a good idea. Police and fire wages and pensions are way out of line these days. There would be a cost reduction from working for municipalities on contract. To privatize or not. That is the question.

It could happen as declining revenues force towns to cut costs.

"Stop these "Government Redtrucks" from infringing on the rights of PRIVATE companies who can do it cheaper, and only for those who can afford it."

#8 | Posted by NoBrains4Me

Brilliant idea.

Let's say yer neighbor decides he can't afford it. His house burns halfway down and is uninhabitable.

That should do wonders for yer property value.

There is never ever a time when government privatized the the cost and it got cheaper. When ever privatization occurs the people are never ever served better either.

If you think I am wrong prove it.

Our fire department is all volunteer, the opposite of socialist.

"Stop these "Government Redtrucks" from infringing on the rights of PRIVATE companies who can do it cheaper, and only for those who can afford it."

#8 | Posted by NoBrains4Me

Brilliant idea.

Let's say yer neighbor decides he can't afford it. His house burns halfway down and is uninhabitable.

#26 | Posted by Dave

Better yet, your neighbor's house is burning and sets your property on fire. FD didn't respond to the first blaze because that address is on the "no call" list.

I think privatizing firefighting services is a good idea.

#25 | Posted by Ray

Okay... Expound on this.

Eliminate any and all government/taxpayer-based funding for fire fighters.

- Equipment needs to be purchased/upgraded maintained.

- Facilities need to be purchased/upgraded maintained.

- Personnel need to be trained, equipped, and paid.

I can only assume that some sort of insurance then would need to be purchased by each home/property owner, similar to car insurance. It would impossible for the average homeowner to pay full boat for a response to a fire at his/her home. All three points above have to be met.

So like any other government/taxpayer-provided service that is currently underwritten through tax dollars, these costs would be shifted directly to the recipient of the service(s). One would hope that a commensurate reduction in taxes would occur.

But how much cost would then be shifted directly to the individual. One must consider how much of each tax dollar (fed, state, county/parish, city) goes for fire fighting. And there would be all the other considerations that must be plugged into the formula, the same ones used by the home and property insurance companies.

For example, distance from a fire house, distance to a fire hydrant, rural or urban, composition of the house including roof type, how many people live in the house, smokers or not, trees or not, power lines or not, surrounding population and house densities, etc.

And what of the ancillary services also provided by fire departments, such as emergency paramedic services, fighting wildfires, search and rescue, etc.?

Could add up to quite the bill for the individual. We are currently getting a bargain.

Apply many of these same considerations to the police departments. Should these also be privatized?

I think privatizing firefighting services is a good idea. Police and fire wages and pensions are way out of line these days.

#25 | Posted by Ray

I hope they are paid well. If it's 6 figures so be it. I want the best you can get fighting fires or tracking criminals.

To paraphrase a quote from True Romance: it is better to have a Fire Department and not need it than it is to need one and not have it.

I hope they are paid well. If it's 6 figures so be it. I want the best you can get fighting fires or tracking criminals.

#31 | Posted by jackass

A higher quality workforce does not necessarily follow higher wages. Overpriced labor instead attracts an abundant supply of eager applicants. That's a law of markets that applies universally, including unions.

We're on the eve of a wave of municipal bankruptcies, layoffs and pension defaults. Be that as it may, overpriced public wages sow the seeds of their own destruction. It wrecked unions in the private sector. Now it's going to do the same for unions in the public sector.

WTF is the MMS protocol anyways??

#21 | Posted by LarryMohr

try clicking on the link:>)

yeah, i know ~ u've been gone awwhile so I will post another similar link again so you don't have to scroll back up again to find it the newsletter:>)

There is never ever a time when government privatized the the cost and it got cheaper. When ever privatization occurs the people are never ever served better either.
If you think I am wrong prove it.
#27 | Posted by roman

Valid point which I think has to do with graft and corruption, which in politics can't be avoided.

Another route is for property owners to contract privately for fire protection. Insurance companies would price accordingly.

These are just my thoughts about how government could be downsized. Certainly, declining revenues will force government cutbacks.

These are just my thoughts about how government could be downsized. Certainly, declining revenues will force government cutbacks.

Posted by Ray

one would think...not to mention HS Girls football

"Overpriced labor instead attracts an abundant supply of eager applicants"

But wouldn't that also lead to being able to choose the cream of the crop?

"We're on the eve of a wave of municipal bankruptcies, layoffs and pension defaults."

Sadly, too true.

"It wrecked unions in the private sector."

All due respect, if management did what they were supposed to do, the pensions would be fine. But instead of fully funding them, they've used the monies to inflate their salaries, their bonuses, and their spending. I'm on the retirement committee of a national Union's pension plan. A year ago, only 60% of pensions were in what the government calls "the green zone". Now, only 20% qualify, and the one I serve is one of those. We're living proof Union pensions can be managed...our difference is WE control the money, not any company.

"Another route is for property owners to contract privately for fire protection. Insurance companies would price accordingly."

Yeah, that would be great. Dozens of fire companies in every town. Real efficient.

How about contracting privately for garbage collection as well? That would be great! Everyday different trucks rumbling down your street.

#30 | Posted by ZOT

Could add up to quite the bill for the individual. We are currently getting a bargain.

Assuming free competition, the market based approach is always more cost effective than government monopoly services.

Apply many of these same considerations to the police departments. Should these also be privatized?

I'm fairly sure that private security personnel already outnumber police personnel. Yes, I think it's doable. The details would have to evolve in a market environment.

Today's police are no longer the friendly cop on the beat. Today, they are militarized to an ominous degree.

How about contracting privately for garbage collection as well? That would be great!

Actually there a lot of those. Some deal with you directly and some bill you through the city.

private fire department???

absurd idea........ despite whatever ineffeciencies it might have.

How about contracting privately for garbage collection as well? That would be great! Everyday different trucks rumbling down your street.

#39 | Posted by nullifidian

I believe it's already done, though contracted through municipalities. When property owners are free to choose, they can work out those details. But of course, you hate property ownership.

WE have private garbage company pick up.

"I believe it's already done, though contracted through municipalities. "

Forget that. Let every garbage company patrol the streets of your neighborhood biding for each weekly pickup. Let the market rule!

But wouldn't that also lead to being able to choose the cream of the crop?
#37 | Posted by Danforth

It is at the natural market price where buyers get to choose the quality they value. Above-the-market wages only increase the pool of applicants.

All due respect, if management did what they were supposed to do, the pensions would be fine.

I'm not dismissing management issues. Every case has to be looked at individually. But on the whole, labor costs, whether they management or worker, or some combination, increase the cost of doing business.

Pension issues are more complex because Wall Street is running Ponzi Schemes on them too.

....Hey .....Great Idea !!

.....we could also do away with those SOCIALIST POLICE DEPARTMENTS.......

......just arm yourself with a gun (if you already have'nt) and take care of your legal disputes yourself.......

......after all, a well armed populace does not need some COMMUNIST POLICE DEPARTMENT to tell it right from wrong.......don't expect me to chase away YOUR BURGLERS with MY TAX DOLLARS.......you selfish socialist......

#46 | Posted by skizziks

I can always count on some dimwit to make remarks like that.

#47 | Posted by Ray at 2009-09-05 03:28 PM | Reply | Flag:

I can always count on some dimwit to have no response to a valid point.

I can always count on some dimwit to make remarks like that.
.....#47 | Posted by Ray

......you are fucking idiot Ray.......

.....healthcare is no different than any other shared service we expect to provide ourselves as a society.......

.....smart societies get it.......idiots like you don't......

....smart societies get it.......idiots like you don't......

#49 | Posted by skizziks

Your "smart societies" are collapsing under the weight of monetary insolvency. Idiots like you don't get it.

I can always count on some dimwit to have no response to a valid point.
#48 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob

I just wrote a long string of posts. I'm not going to start over.

Assuming free competition, the market based approach is always more cost effective than government monopoly services.

Horse hockey, like I said earlier, when ever government privatizes the cost never gets cheaper and the service gets worse.

You have a fucking strange way of thinking about "more cost effective." Open your eyes to reality, not what some stupid lecturer said in a damn school book.

Your "smart societies" are collapsing under the weight of monetary insolvency. Idiots like you don't get it.

#50 | Posted by Ray at 2009-09-05 03:38 PM | Reply | Flag

Which "smart societies" are you talking about?

I can always count on some dimwit to have no response to a valid point.

"I'm not dismissing management issues. Every case has to be looked at individually."

Why? If two relatively equal entities are viewed, and one is doing well and the other is totally fucked up, doesn't it lead to the conclusion one was properly managed and the other wasn't? What on earth did we do that every other pension couldn't have done?

For example, give GM the labor costs of Toyota, and they'd still go belly up. Why? Because the idiot GM management over the years chose higher pay and bigger bonuses over fully funding the health & retirement plans, figuring they'd lay off the costs on new cars sold. That decision had nothing to do with labor. And if survivability or sustainability are issues, professional arbitrators can step in and mediate.

The biggest mistake, IMNSHO, was when the courts decided pension plans weren't the property of the workers, but the property of the company. I'm sure you know where that led: corporate raiding, all to get at the monies in the "over-funded" pension plans. The same ones that don't look so "over-funded" anymore.

"But on the whole, labor costs, whether they management or worker, or some combination, increase the cost of doing business."

Thanks, Mr. Obvious! (Sorry, couldn't resist....)

#53 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob

Smart societies in quotes is Skizziks term, not mine.
IMO, a nation in the fix this nation is in can't be very smart.

Why? If two relatively equal entities are viewed, and one is doing well and the other is totally fucked up, doesn't it lead to the conclusion one was properly managed and the other wasn't? What on earth did we do that every other pension couldn't have done?

Not necessarily. Labor issues can bring down a well managed company if the hurdles are too great to satisfy customer expectations. Again, every case has to be looked at individually.

GM suffers from both management AND labor cost issues. Obama can't resuscitate that zombie, no matter how much money he pours into it.

Thanks, Mr. Obvious! (Sorry, couldn't resist....)

I wouldn't have said it if you weren't so one-sided on the management side of the equation.

Would a rightwinger please post a list of all activities and businesses they feel it is appropriate for the government to be involved with. Cuz at this point it seems GOPhers simply oppose any government actiivity which Obama favors.

IMO, a nation in the fix this nation is in can't be very smart.

#55 | Posted by Ray at 2009-09-05 03:47 PM | Reply | Flag

Yet you rail against any attempt to fix it.

Management signs the contract too. If they make a viable product, the consumer will pay the cost of labor---if the consumer makes enough money to buy the product. You seem to want to deny the consumer a job that pays well enough to buy a new car every now and then. If we worked for what the Chinese work for, I'm sure you would be happy---unless those were YOUR wages.

GM suffers from both management AND labor cost issues. Obama can't resuscitate that zombie, no matter how much money he pours into it.

Horse hockey again. GM suffers from greedy management issues.

Labor is not nor has it ever been the problem but it is strange how people listen to the problem management and just go side with management.

"Would a rightwinger please post a list of all activities and businesses they feel it is appropriate for the government to be involved with."

As I'm not a right whinger I can mention Halliburton and Blackwater because you can be quite sure they won't.

Yet you rail against any attempt to fix it.
#58 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob

On the contrary. I've long argued government is not the solution; it is the problem. Unfortunately, I'm in a small minority.

Anyway, it's too late now. I don't know exactly what this collapse will look like, but I know it will be in the history books for millennia.

Management signs the contract too. If they make a viable product, the consumer will pay the cost of labor---if the consumer makes enough money to buy the product. You seem to want to deny the consumer a job that pays well enough to buy a new car every now and then. If we worked for what the Chinese work for, I'm sure you would be happy---unless those were YOUR wages.

I don't deny anybody anything. There are natural laws which govern prices and wages. This country went on an anti-capitalist and debt binge from the time of WWII. Now we're in a correction phase that can't be stopped.

Horse hockey again. GM suffers from greedy management issues.

Labor is not nor has it ever been the problem but it is strange how people listen to the problem management and just go side with management.

#59 | Posted by roman

I distinctly said "management AND labor." No question about GM's management culture. Additionally, GM's wage and benefit costs are so high, they lose money on every car.

This country went on an anti-capitalist and debt binge from the time of WWII. Now we're in a correction phase that can't be stopped.

#62 | Posted by Ray at 2009-09-05 04:31 PM | Reply | Flag

Maybe we sould go back to the breadlines fostered by the conservatives before WWII--would you be happy then? Maybe we should break out the horse and carriage again. Would that be better? Management takes million dollar parachutes and begrudges workers a two dollar an hour increase---maybe it will dawn on you why you are such a small minority. I bet you aren't even in management--I bet you work for a company that you don't own.

I distinctly said "management AND labor." No question about GM's management culture. Additionally, GM's wage and benefit costs are so high, they lose money on every car.

Horse hockey again.

Management made the decisions, they even made decisions to invest in areas they know nothing about and when they begin to lose money they blame it on labor.

Every failing company is through poor bad management and its funny you can't see the reality of this.

Additionally, GM's wage and benefit costs are so high, they lose money on every car.

#63 | Posted by Ray at 2009-09-05 04:36 PM | Reply | Flag

Again you are mistaken---they just aren't selling enough cars because they can't compete with Japanese cars made by Americans in America earning the same wages.

Management makes all the decisions. They set the direction, the investments, and even pay the bills.

It's just easier to blame labor for their poor management decisions.

Not one corporation has gone under because of labor, not one.

In fact if you look at all the corporations who destroy the union labor they all go under...all of them.

Using what seems to be some schooling economic mantra of rationale is not reality.

Labor will make or break this country and the sad fact is labor has no decision in the entire process.

Again you are mistaken---they just aren't selling enough cars because they can't compete with Japanese cars made by Americans in America earning the same wages.

I am positive that GM is losing money on every car, making up the difference with financing.

However it breaks down, it costs Toyota considerably less to manufacture a car in the states than it does GM.

It's not worth arguing over. If this is important to you, look it up.

However it breaks down, it costs Toyota considerably less to manufacture a car in the states than it does GM.

It's not worth arguing over. If this is important to you, look it up.

#69 | Posted by Ray at 2009-09-05 04:53 PM | Reply | Flag:

If it is important, you should have posted a link. Facts are Americans making Toyotas and Hondas make very similar wages as union workers. Maybe if the management wouldn't take millions for fucking off and making stupid decisions, they could turn things around. GM had a viable electric car in the 90's---they scrapped them all. The management should all be dismissed---with no golden parachutes.

Not one corporation has gone under because of labor, not one.

Then what happened to the unions? Offhand, they went from 45% of the private workforce to 10%. Now they are heavily represented in government where there is no market competition.

Labor will make or break this country and the sad fact is labor has no decision in the entire process.

America's uncompetitiveness with the rest of the world has more to do with politics. I really feel those who lose their jobs in this market.

Then what happened to the unions? Offhand, they went from 45% of the private workforce to 10%. Now they are heavily represented in government where there is no market competition.

What happened was that Management started implementing better wages and benefits on their own so Unions wouldn't get a foothold. Had they done that initially, unions wouldn't have had to be formed. The wages and benefits places like Toyota and Honda have today are as a direct consequence of unions.

#71 | Posted by Ray at 2009-09-05 05:04 PM | Reply | Flag

#70 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob

You have a tendency to push a subject beyond my attention span.

The Volt won't be any more viable than the car GM made in the 90s. That one, I believe was much too expensive. The Volt, as of now, is set to sell at $40,000. It can't even compete with the top selling Corolla. That 230 mpg claim is based on one overnight charge, 40 miles a day.

A few weeks ago I calculated and posted the cost per "gallon" of energy if electricity is 10 cents per KWH: $3.50.

I have made an incremental improvement personally using Cash for Clunkers to get $4,500 for a Durango drilled full of antenna holes with approaching 200K on the clock and getting 12 MPG. I bought a Ford (No bailout $$ to them!) Escape hybrid; 35.2 MPG highway when I can stand to turn the AC off, 29 otherwise. Nice little truck.

#26 | Posted by Dave at

#29 | Posted by ZOT at

You two have to be the smartest motherfuckers on this site. Is a joke still funny when you have to break it down line by line and explain it?

You have a tendency to push a subject beyond my attention span.

What a shocker

The Volt won't be any more viable than the car GM made in the 90s. That one, I believe was much too expensive. The Volt, as of now, is set to sell at $40,000. It can't even compete with the top selling Corolla. That 230 mpg claim is based on one overnight charge, 40 miles a day.

#73 | Posted by Ray at 2009-09-05 05:11 PM | Reply | Flag

The initial cost of the EV1 was 80,000, but had an artificially low price set at 34,000. However, even selling the car for 100,000 would have had a huge market. That's pocket change for thousands of people in the US. There are several cars on the market today that cost that and more---several celebrities had EV1s, and the cost of the car would have come down in mass production. The article I linked to said the cost of batteries would have compounded the problem, but again---there are many people who could, and would, have paid the money necessary to have a completely electric car. Battery technology may even have caught up with demand had they kept up production.

Many times new tech has a high price tag--crushing the EV1s was the idea of an idiot---forunately GM had one on hand to make theat decision as usual.

#75 | Posted by NoGov4Me

Just damn.

Imagine having brinks patrolling your city. I worked at wackenhut on and off for several years and only took a 40 hour training course primarily on gun safety.

"I'm fairly sure that private security personnel already outnumber police personnel." - Ray

Yeah, try that in any large city. See how well it works. Because it was tried in the 1800s. And helped only those who could afford it best.

Imagine how much more corruption we could have. Low paid officers receiving bribes from Crime lords. We might as well live in Lagos. I work with an African guy who told me the police dept sometimes are not able to come due to lack of working vehicles. That isn't something I want to know. 911 I need an officer. Sorry the vans in the shop, hope you own a gun.

#79 | Posted by AILtd at 2009-09-06 02:03 PM | Reply | Flag: Non sequitur

What does one have to do with the other?

Jackass

Wages are just another price. For example, my employer hired me for my skills at a rate we agreed to. If my performance doesn't live up to his expectations, I'm out. It's no different with police. Businesses try not to pay more than they need for the skills they want, and neither should municipalities overpay cops.

If municipalities underpay, they won't attract candidates or cops might quit and go somewhere else. That happened to NYC a short while ago. They couldn't maintain staff because wages were not keeping up with the cost of living.

There is always a natural market price or wage that balances supply with demand.

"What does one have to do with the other?" - Ray

Has to do with your suggestion that people hire their own police. And that such is the case now in many places.

There is always a natural market price or wage that balances supply with demand.

#82 | Posted by Ray

I agree, but having to hire private police is an insane idea. What if you can't afford to buy police protection because you are out of work?

Let's look that sentence again: "I'm fairly sure that private security personnel already outnumber police personnel."

The subject is about numerical quantities. It has nothing to do with the qualitative aspects of people hiring their own police.

I used to live in a town with pvt trash pickup. I hated it. 5 days a week you heard a trash truck coming down the street at 5 am. I prefer my taxes take care of it and one day a week I get woken up an hour earlier than I want.

#85 | Posted by Ray

The subject is privitizing the police force. And mentioning that it is already occurring. And therefore is obviously viable. Hence my statement about trying it in cities. And good luck with the battles which occur. As happened in the 1800s.

The subject is about numerical quantities. It has nothing to do with the qualitative aspects of people hiring their own police.

#85 | Posted by Ray

You are right their are more security guards then cops. Security guards help as a deterrent but when shit hits the fan we call the cops.

#84 | Posted by jackass

I don't know where you got the idea that I advocate individuals hiring their own police protection.

I was thinking about ways to cut the government monopoly on force. The idea is not so insane when you realize how militarized our police are getting. I don't like where this expansion of government power is going.

#87 | Posted by AILtd

Here's my whole post.

"I'm fairly sure that private security personnel already outnumber police personnel. Yes, I think it's doable. The details would have to evolve in a market environment."

When people, towns or cities enter into voluntary contract, they agree on mutually beneficial terms. This is the way the private sector works. I know it's a radical idea. I think Americans have gotten too used to government supplying certain services that they can't think outside the box. It's just a thought exercise.

#90 | Posted by Ray

And my point is that it is _not_ a radical idea. Privitized police forces were very commonplace in cities in the 1800s. And they were a joke. They created an environment where the rich controlled the forces and the rest were essentially ignored.

A privitized police force winds up being a pawn of the local government. And a victim of political turnover. If a Repub administration hires one firm, when the Dems take over they are guaranteed to kick them out and hire another. And the circle will continue.

And the primary victims will be the police force which will have no continuity. The secondary victims will be the people who will quickly learn to distrust the police. The primary beneficiaries will be criminals who will be forgotten from one admin to the next. The secondary beneficiaries will be those who have enough money, or clout, to influence those police forces to favor them. And, since a privitized force has profit as its primary concern, that will be in its interest also.

It cracks me up to read posts by rightwing idiots denouncing socialism. This nation's most fundamental services have all been socialized for more than a hundred years. Get on a Muni bus, a subway, your on socialist transportation. Call a fireman or a cop, you're getting socialist protection. You bank goes bankrupt and you get reimbursed, you're getting socialist insurance. Seems retarded rightwingers only don't like it when a Democrat is in the White House.

Moder8

You and are are usually at opposite ends of the political spectrum but I agreed with everything you said in your post #92.

re #93

"You and are are...." = "You and I are...."