No wonder his name is Dick.

very sad
of note was his silence re: blowing "second hand" Cuban cigar smoke at the terrorists

Dick has a book coming out. That is the sole point of his "defense" tour.

Dick has a book coming out. That is the sole point of his "defense" tour.

An author going on tour to promote his new book is a new concept to you?

Luuuuuv this headline!!! Where did you find it? DailyKOS? MSNBC?

An author going on tour to promote his new book is a new concept to you?

#4 | Posted by goatman at 2009-08-31 07:48 AM

No. It isn't.

The fact that most of those crimes having been perpetrated by civilian law enforcement whom are now happily back at their civilian jobs, spying on us, for them, makes him feel warm and fuzzy.

What an evil worthless shit.

Oral sex would've prevented all of this. That seed should've hit the floor, or at least her tonsils.

and yet even the washington post agrees with him about the info we got out of kalieed and the other guy after being waterboarded.

and he was also correct in calling the investigation political.
these matters have ALREADY BEEN investigated by NON BUSH appointed investigators and there are people in jail now because of some things and the others were deemed to be not illegal by the dept of justice some five years ago.....

so its nothing BUT political and a preceedent that obama may one day REALLY wish he hadnt started

and dont give me shit about obama not being behind it..holder is a politicall appointee who serves at the pleasure of the president..at least thats what goddamn democrats said when the names were bush/gonzalez

#5 | Posted by KBM

Dick gave them the headline... "The judgment was made then that there wasn't anything that was improper or illegal," said former Vice President Dick Cheney on Fox News Sunday. "Improper or Illegal." Thanks Dick, your only positive contribution.

AND remember all of the years that dems told us that there were no communists in fdr's administration.......and the bullshit continues to this day

but dont believe me about the info
take it up with the washington post from last saturday

"there wasn't anything that was improper or illegal"

right! ummm we have pictures! And not all of them have been released yet. Maybe we need to do that (again) to remind us of what Improper and Illegal means. What about the use of rape? Is that improper? The rumor is that we used rape or the threat of rape and Obama doesn't want that released. So maybe we need to revisit that decision.

So Cheney is insisting that he be known as the Torture VP for all of History? What a weird guy.

But as Chairpoodles says:

Even if it was wrong Torture Werks! (tm) so...that justifies it!

Commentary: Cheney wrong on interrogations'

Story Highlights

Bergen: Dick Cheney says coercive interrogations saved lives and stopped attacks

Bergen says evidence shows the most valuable information came without coercion

He says information gained through coercion was of dubious value

Bergen: History will show coercive techniques did more harm than good

An article in the Washington Post that came out on the eve of Cheney's appearance on Sunday may seem to support Cheney's lies, but the documents released don't. As Cheney claimed that the documents would prove his assertions, he is wrong, as is the WaPo for T-ing the ball for him.

When it comes to saving a single American life... do what it takes!!
Torture is a tool, that when used properly works. Did any of our people go too far? Maybe, but there was legitimate info gained that thwarted other 9/11 type attacks.
If a few towel heads gotta get roughed up a little or worse.. so be it!! One of our lives is worth a 1000 if theirs.
We did not asked for them to kill 3000+ civilians, they decided to do it on their own.

Let's not forget WHO we were "torturing" here. It wasn't a bunch of 3rd grade girls. They were terrorists wanting to kill YOU and ME. Of course, the left will always defend the terrorists...sad but true.

They were terrorists wanting to kill YOU and ME.

I never realized the "just" define their actions by the actions of those they condemn.

Torture is morally wrong. The U.S. should not sanction it's use.
Interrogation experts almost universally agree that info obtained via torture is suspect. And, more importantly, there are more effective ways of obtaining the information and with a higher degree of reliability. Again, the U.S. should not sanction the use of torture.
And Dick Cheney belongs in a prison for life!

Beachbuzz-
Send out an email to REX, as I have been posting.

"The judgment was made then that there wasn't anything that was improper or illegal.... It's clearly a political move. I mean, there's no other rationale for why they're doing this."

This guy is such an... he defends his decision on the basis of advice from people who helped craft the decision in the first place?

Nobody has bigger eggs in this country than Dick.

#14 | Posted by seedeez2
#15 | Posted by Beachbuzz

Idiot. Seriously? Did you both just write that?
Where to begin:
1) Torture has been proven repeatedly to fail to obtain useful information.
2) Whether or not you regard it as morally wrong against certain groups of people, it is still illegal. We even prosecuted it as a war crime after WWII.
3) ...racist much?
4) If I call you a terrorist without a trial, under your logic, we can torture you.
5) Now nothing stops Iran and North Korea and other nations from torturing any US citizen accused (just accused) of spying...including a couple reporters and backpackers recently.
6) Since 1789, when we became a country, there has always been someone trying to kill us, invade us, and/or blow us up. And they've done far worse than 3,000 lives. We still don't stoop to torture. We have laws for a reason. Get over it. You want torture, go to a dictatorship. I'm sure they'd love to have you.
7) Lastly, they probably wouldn't hate us so much if we hadn't continued to sell weapons to the people trying to kill them...

The drunk rednecks already stole $11 trillion from America's deficit in 8 years to create the NEW IRAQ: NeoCon Paradise
Now all the deranged RepubliTards need to finally move to IRAQ*, Afghan* or Somalia* immediately!!
*all places are perfect for y'all and recall the North actually won the Civil War to stop you from wanting to keep Southern America just like Somalia -> so BYE Now!

IRAQ / Afghan / Somalia - Necon Paradise brochure:

No Govt, No Laws, No Taxes, No Social Programs;
Unlimited Gun Totiin', Killin', Enslavin', Torturin', Rapin', Lyin', Stealin', Exploitin', Greedin'
(Bonus: Blacks, Minorities, Weak humans already included)
Then y'all can read the Bible on Sundays and continue faking to be "Christians" by NOT FOLLOWING A SINGLE WORD!???

So RepubliTarded, and yet so Near! - DRB

why don't we ask the people who had relatives in the world trade center bombings what they think about torturing terrorist?

lets ask the people in California who's lives were saved with information obtained by waterboarding terrorists what they think?

put yourselves in their shoes once... do not put yourselves in the piece of shit terrorist's shoes.

Of course, the left will always defend the terrorists...sad but true.

hey dickhead... we would even defend your right to be a dickhead. WE would even give you a fair trial too.

Did you notice?

Even so-called Terrorists are human beings.

why don't we ask the people who had relatives in the world trade center bombings what they think about torturing terrorist?

That is why we don't let the soldier on the field interrogate prisoners. They take them to the officers. The foot soldier are too emotionally involved. Think about it. Or can you?

I had a relative in the WTC, are you going to ask me?

Torture was used to gain the false intelligence of a link between AQ and Iraq. That false intelligence was used to justify the invasion of Iraq. Torture has lead to the deaths of 1000's of Americans.

Alleged terrorits dumbass.

Many of the people were just Iraqis or Afghanis living their lives. NOT THE PERPRETATORS OF 9/11!

WE KILLED HUNDREDS.

We did not asked for them to kill 3000+ civilians, they decided to do it on their own.

#14 | Posted by seedeez2

Actually you did. Or your leaders did that for you and you allowed for it.

Call 2 Harms,

Why not ask "the people who had relatives in the world trade center bombings" what they think about

(former Pres) BUSH Senior actually sitting with the BIN LADEN FAMILY on the very morning of 911 while also watching (enjoying) the actual bombings together as it launched massive profits for their joined defense funded "Carlyle Group"..????

well, before the Bush-Cons gave them special VIP escorts out of the country to safety later that day....

Obama is TRYING to Torture the Real Terrorists - the CHENEY and Bush crime family with a factual, real, genuine investigation of their crimes!

"why don't we ask the people who had relatives in the world trade center bombings what they think about torturing terrorist?"

Do it. And while you are at it, see what the rest of the people who live and work in Manhattan, people who had their lives disrupted, for a while thinking that WWIII had begun. what they think. I believe you will be surprised by both answers.

I'm not saying we should torture (waterboard) every terrorist we capture, just the ones that are high value...ie, known uppermanagement types.

7) Lastly, they probably wouldn't hate us so much if we hadn't continued to sell weapons to the people trying to kill them...

why don't we ask the people who had relatives in the world trade center bombings what they think about torturing terrorist?
#22 | Posted by call2arms

I understand. Because their family members were killed, we should ignore the law and everything we stand for, be damned with the consequences, and torture away. Astounding logic. What grade did you make it through? 3rd or 4th?

An author going on tour to promote his new book is a new concept to you?

#4 | Posted by goatman at 2009-08-31 07:48 AM

No. It isn't.

#6 | Posted by 726

No.. but what is a NEW CONCEPT for us is the former Vice President of the United States of America going on tour to justify His use of Torture. HE was obviously the architect behind it all. But, Bush bears the ultimate responsibility for allowing it to happen on his watch. If Bush had just said NO to Torture (like Obama has clearly done) then we wouldn't even be having this discussion today and there would be NO investigation.

Even so-called Terrorists are human beings.

#23 | Posted by donnerboy

Terrorists, since they are not citizens, are not entitled to our judicial system or protected under our constitution, Dickhead.

#29 | Posted by Beachbuzz
Israel is just one... We sort of sold weapons to EVERYONE in the Middle East. When Iran and Iraq went to war, we sold weapons to both sides because we thought it was in our best interest. Lets also not forget serious CIA involvement in the Middle East for the last few decades.

Terrorists, since they are not citizens, are not entitled to our judicial system or protected under our constitution, Dickhead.

#32 | Posted by Beachbuzz

Freedom from torture is an inalienable human right.

George W. Bush

Terrorists, since they are not citizens, are not entitled to our judicial system or protected under our constitution, Dickhead.
#32 | Posted by Beachbuzz

Ah. A more inaccurate statement could not be made...you idiot. First, the US Constitution is not suppose to apply just to citizens. In fact, in the first few years of our country, it applied equally to British and French citizens. Second, there are international laws we have signed on to. Yes yes, Geneva Conventions of course. No, there is no such thing as an enemy combatant. And there are about ten other international treaties we signed saying no to torturing people... People period. No torture period. Get over it. Finally, there are laws on the books preventing this type of thing.

This is the Thread where the "Government Cant Do Anything Right" WingDings Rush in to Defend the Bush "Government".

The Fucking Irony!

Its almost as Pathetic as having to Hear these Teabaggers whine about "Big Government" and a Loss of "Civil Liberties" ----- After Years of Cheering "Stay the Course" for an Administration that systematically Looted 2 Trillion dollars from the Public Trust, Grew the Government to a Never Before Seen Size and Undermined every Americans Liberty (to keep The Idiots safe from Something)!

No.. but what is a NEW CONCEPT for us is the former Vice President of the United States of America going on tour to justify His use of Torture.

There's probably not a book written that everyone can agree on is good.

college educated fuck face...

they clearly have no regard for the law or life, but hey, lets coddle them and give them a suckle from the hypothetical tit

I just gotta know, right wingers... Where do you get all these insane legal arguments? Even Woo didn't produce this type of nonsense. He just had to ignore the issues completely.

Even so-called Terrorists are human beings.

#23 | Posted by donnerboy

Terrorists, since they are not citizens, are not entitled to our judicial system or protected under our constitution, Dickhead.

#32 | Posted by Beachbuzz

So YOU call someone a Terrorist they are no langer human and are not entitled to any human rights is that it?

So you believe that our Laws are just for Americans? Then why are we trying to bring "Democracy" to the Middle East? Why are we interfering in other countries? Their laws are just fine then right? no need to enlighten them? You think our laws are only good here in America? WE do have treaties and international laws such as the Geneva Convention to protect the rights of all humans.

Think about this statement butthead.

We hold these Truths to be Self-evident, that ALL Men are created Equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

It doesn't say ALL AMERICAN MEN brother. It says ALL MEN. So do you believe that or not?

i bet you like to hug trees too huh sycophant

college educated fuck face...

they clearly have no regard for the law or life, but hey, lets coddle them and give them a suckle from the hypothetical tit

#38 | Posted by Call2Arms

by coddle I presume you mean not beat them to death?

#38 | Posted by Call2Arms

Ah, self admitted hick. And actually, that's college educated and law school educated FFace. I've actually studied international law on these very issues for hundreds of hours unfortunately. Not fun but you learn quite a bit poorly through US and International Law.

But I'll take that as a "I'm out of arguments. You're probably right about all the laws we broke. But...I want to torture them because they look different than me and kinda look like some other dudes who attacked us."

No one said you couldn't execute them. Just do it right. Is that so wrong? What are you afraid of?

as i've said before donnergirl, they have no regard for life (thousands of lives in fact), why should we care about them.

the end(obtaining information to save lives), justifies the means(pouring a little water on their head, wooopty dooo)

i bet you like to hug trees too huh sycophant
#41 | Posted by Call2Arms

Nope. I just like to make fun of stupid people.

But...I want to torture them because they look different than me and kinda look like some other dudes who attacked us."

you are mistaking what i'm arguing about apparently.

i'm not about torturing innocent people (which in some cases we may have done) if there is outstanding evidence supporting the fact that somebody (black, white, purple, yellow, or whatever), then it is justified.

OK, so we witnessed some torture and lives were saved as a result. According to non-partisan sources numerous planned attacks were thwarted. Now, let's see how reading Miranda rights to extremist's hell bent on killing innocents works out. Just ask Bill Clinton how it worked out... Remember the first tower attack, the U.S.S Cole, the bombings in Nairobi and Kenya, and finally the September 11, 2001? We are doomed to repeat the mistakes of the distracted and politically correct!

So YOU call someone a Terrorist they are no langer human and are not entitled to any human rights is that it?

Terrorist/POW's can have all the human rights they want AFTER we torture some good intel out of them.

This is the Thread where the "Government Cant Do Anything Right" WingDings Rush in to Defend the Bush "Government".

Will this also be the thread where redneckshill sends a report and my IP address to someone?

"Nobody has bigger eggs in this country than Dick."

Don't confuse the abscence of a sense of shame or common decency with bravery.

This is the guy who's immediate reaction on 9/11 was to cower in an underground bunker.

#46 | Posted by Call2Arms

I'll grant you the one exception which I'm cool with: the ticking time bomb scenario, we know the guy has information about its location, etc. In that case, honestly, I'm cool with it. Otherwise, no.

this article and argument is perfect for all you libs... lets divert some more attention back, and off the current administration.

college educated and law school educated

A pompus assole with a degree, how cute.

You are a fool that obviously lacks critical thinking skills and a sense of history. Get your head out of the sand!

OK, so we witnessed some torture and lives were saved as a result. According to non-partisan sources numerous planned attacks were thwarted. Now, let's see how reading Miranda rights to extremist's hell bent on killing innocents works out. Just ask Bill Clinton how it worked out... Remember the first tower attack, the U.S.S Cole, the bombings in Nairobi and Kenya, and finally the September 11, 2001? We are doomed to repeat the mistakes of the distracted and politically correct!

#47 | Posted by tennisnut at

We beat people to death.

Presumably at least a few of these people were innocent.

]We raped and threated to rape women and children.

How many innocent people have to be killed, raped and brutalized to keep you safe?

and

Torture was used to gain the false intelligence of a link between AQ and Iraq. That false intelligence was used to justify the invasion of Iraq. Torture has lead to the deaths of 1000's of Americans

"as i've said before donnergirl, they have no regard for life (thousands of lives in fact), why should we care about them."

Because it's what differentiates Us from Them.

I Guess you're Just a Terrorist at Heart!

The saddest about all this is;

That after no real information was gained by Becoming the Terrorist; it will take at least 80 Years for the Perception that America Tortures to fade away!

Talk about a Disconnect in Return Vs. Investment.

Bush Made Every American the Face of Torture, which was the Investment ------- and Now Every American will have to Endure the Repercussions of this Perception for the Rest of Their Lives (that's the return)!

All Because we have a Segment of our Population that's So SOULESS its willing to Sacrifice Everything ---- Even their Humanity!

These people are Nothing But Animals. They have Proved that By Becoming Like the Very Terrorist they Fear!

#51 | Posted by Sycophant

hey all little bit sense shines through

Will this also be the thread where redneckshill sends a report and my IP address to someone?

#49 | Posted by goatman at 2009-08-31 01:28 PM | Reply

Do you have that post archived? That had to be the biggest pussy post in retort history.

Cocosamville is a fucking snatch. Oh, and that bronze medal from the retard olympics in "drooling".

The ghost of Senator Frank Church can be heard cackling in the background as Eric Holder and the President pick up the torch passed by the senator who shut up our vital intelligence sources and thus caused of 911.

What is it about the "Protect and Defend" part of the federal oaths of office that these two idealists don't undertand?

One "buck-stops-here" part of the President's job is to make decisions when time is of the essence and there is limited information and no time for debating the nuances of the law. My fear is Obama will opt for endless debate when the chips are down.

A pompus assole with a degree, how cute.
#53 | Posted by Beachbuzz

Sorry I know how to read. You should try it sometime.

Terrorists, since they are not citizens, are not entitled to our judicial system or protected under our constitution, Dickhead.
#32 | Posted by Beachbuzz

Sorry, Buzzzzd, but you're dead wrong. (Yes, again.) Terrorists and people suspected of being terrorists may be denied rights, but it's not because they're not citizens. Noncitizens are protected under the U.S. Constitution. Tell you junior high civics teacher you need help, now.

Do you have that post archived?

No. I should have. It was a good one.

"Tell you junior high civics teacher you need help, now."
#61 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis

tell your 1st grade grammer teacher you need help, now

"tell your 1st grade grammer teacher you need help, now"

Tell your English and Spelling teachers you need help, now.

*grammar*

the end(obtaining information to save lives), justifies the means(pouring a little water on their head, wooopty dooo)

#44 | Posted by Call2Arms

NO the ends do not justify the means. Only in your feeble mind as yo try to rationalize your governments actions. I do not condone them. I do not support Torture by any means or for any reason. It is against our laws and International Law. The fact is we could have gotten the same or better information without resorting to Torture. We justified an illegal invasion of another country with Torture. We killed many thousands of lives because we Tortured. How does the ends justify the means? I keep hearing we thwarted attacks with Torture. I don not believe this is so. We didn't even catch Osama Bin Ladin! WTF!

As for your contention that waterboarding is a pouring a little water on your face.

I dare YOU to allow yourself to be waterboarded. It is NOT a college hazing prank (tho some of those have been deadly too!) You can die from waterboarding and people have. Waterboarding, if done properly, actually drowns you. It is not simulated drowning but is actual drowning. Without someone to revive you most likely you WILL die.

It IS TORTURE as Torture is defined in the Geneva Convention.

Article 1

1. For the purposes of this Convention, torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.
2. This article is without prejudice to any international instrument or national legislation which does or may contain provisions of wider application.

Now carry on with the LOD (the Lie of the Day).

Terrorists/POW's fall under the Geneva Convention, NOT the US Constitution and waterboarding ISN'T torture, it's a "professional interrogation technique".

waterboarding ISN'T torture, it's a "professional interrogation technique".

#67 | Posted by Beachbuzz at 2009-08-31 01:40 PM | Reply | Flag:

Is that what Pol Pot called it?

Waterboarding use is considered a form of torture by legal experts,[3][4] politicians, war veterans,[5][6] medical experts in the treatment of torture victims,[7][8] intelligence officials,[9] military judges,[10] and human rights organizations.[11][12]

In contrast to submerging the head face-forward in water, waterboarding precipitates an almost immediate gag reflex.[13] THE TECHNIQUE DOES NOT INEVITABLY CAUSE LASTING PHYSICAL DAMAGE.

Beachbuzz-
1. Terrorists/POW's fall under the Geneva Convention

Bush/Cheney didn't abide by that quaint document.

2. NOT the US Constitution

Bush/Cheney indefinitely detained and tortured even US citizens and argued that they had every right to before the Supreme Court.

I contend that REDNECKVILLE is a little touched in the head and let me please explain my position. The R.O.I. that you mention is very simple; we have not sustained a significant attack on our soil since 911. No killed civilians, no planes running into buildings, no nuclear facilities rammed by trucks full of explosives, no bridges or tunnels bombed during rush hour; that is our RETURN ON INVESTMENT!
But wait, you may be able to experience these horrors if we continue on the path that we are currently on.

No. I should have. It was a good one.

#62 | Posted by goatman at 2009-08-31 01:35 PM | Reply

Anyway, why don't you tell us how your employer gets your medical record specifics (not de-identified?)

I would like to know because it's illegal and being a professional who safeguards patient rights --- I feel Obligated to Report this potential of abuse to the authorities.

#48 | Posted by Redneckville at 2009-07-30 01:43 PM | Reply

"waterboarding ISN'T torture"

It was when we prosecuted the Japanese after WWII.

If it isn't torture today, what date, exactly, did it change?

Dr. Allen Keller, the director of the Bellevue/N.Y.U. Program for Survivors of Torture, has treated "a number of people" who had been subjected to forms of near-asphyxiation, including waterboarding. In an interview for The New Yorker states, "[He] argued that it was indeed torture, 'Some victims were still traumatized years later', he said. One patient couldn't take showers, and panicked when it rained. 'The fear of being killed is a terrifying experience', he said".[7] Keller also stated in his testimony before the Senate that "water-boarding or mock drowning, where a prisoner is bound to an inclined board and water is poured over their face, inducing a terrifying fear of drowning clearly can result in immediate and long-term health consequences. As the prisoner gags and chokes, the terror of imminent death is pervasive, with all of the physiologic and psychological responses expected, including an intense stress response, manifested by tachycardia (rapid heart beat) and gasping for breath. There is a real risk of death from actually drowning or suffering a heart attack or damage to the lungs from inhalation of water. Long term effects include panic attacks, depression and PTSD. I remind you of the patient I described earlier who would panic and gasp for breath whenever it rained even years after his abuse".

If it isn't torture today, what date, exactly, did it change?

It seems like the date was September 11, 2001

Too bad that Journalist and Human Rights Watch researcher John Sifton was not included in the roundup of terrorists. Me bad, calling a person a terrorist is now a racist statement. Lets just call them misguided individuals. After these "misguided individuals" have thrown hand grenades at US Soldiers, blown up thousands of their own populace, then planned & executed numerous attacks outside their home country we need to feed and educate them on the US Citizens dime. Once caught we allow every country in the world to send their ugly lawyers in to defend these "misguided individuals" - its not like the US doesn't have an overabundance of Ugly Lawyers trying to make a buck. That makes sense only to the wackos that are in charge of the country and the morons that elected them.

The description you people are either desperately searching for or assiduously avoiding is...sociopath.

Just the fact alone that we gained no real actionable intel from those we tortured should be enough to convince the more graceless among you that it doesn't speak well of our national character to so easily adopt the barbaric practices of our adversaries, and only serves to give any future bete noire permission to treat our soldiers in a likewise manner.

I would prefer to defeat my enemy by not becoming him.

(It will interesting to see if the circumflex in "bete" survives. This site seems to be somewhat allergic to exotic pronunciation marks. For example...I have not had a boblingen or a tilde suvive yet.)

Too bad that Journalist and Human Rights Watch researcher John Sifton was not included in the roundup of terrorists. Me bad, calling a person a terrorist is now a racist statement. Lets just call them misguided individuals. After these "misguided individuals" have thrown hand grenades at US Soldiers, blown up thousands of their own populace, then planned & executed numerous attacks outside their home country we need to feed and educate them on the US Citizens dime.

based on what? Cause if these horrible people are so horrible and committing such horrible acts in such a horrible manner we would of course hold them ad infinitum e pluribus unim.

HMMMM what's that many if not most have been released, caught and release?

Fact and Rightards. Never the twain shall meet.

I like Cheney

But I have to (mostly) disagree with the torture statement.

Torture? No, not american.
Rough up top level terrorists no more roughly THAN WE ROUGH UP OUR OWN TROOPS DURING TRAINING? I lose no sleep over that, AND I DON'T CALL IT TORTURE.

1000s were murdered in saddams prisons.
How many prisoners have been murdered in prisons run by the U.S. military? How many maimed?

No matter how you cut it, we're the good guys.

The whiners keep suggesting it was a choice between good and bad, when it was achoice between bad and worse.

"Just the fact alone that we gained no real actionable intel from those we tortured"#77 | Posted by dutch46

are you kidding me? perhaps you should do a little research before shooting your mouth off or get your head out of your ass

This in not about america waterboarding KSM.

This is about america's pervasive and widespread policies in Iraq, Afghanistan, Gitmo and countless black sites from 2001 till 2004, at which time due to the revelations of Abu Graib, the policies changed somewhat, with fewer people either being tortured or performing the torture.

During this time hundreds if not thousands of people were tortured, 100's were killed.

This is not about America waterboarding KSM that is the crown of the hat of the penguin on the tip of the iceberg

No.. but what is a NEW CONCEPT for us is the former Vice President of the United States of America going on tour to justify His use of Torture.

#31 | Posted by donnerboy

We seem to have different definitions of torture. Mine is doing permanent physical harm to someone. What is yours?

"The whiners keep suggesting it was a choice between good and bad, when it was achoice between bad and worse."

Ahhh, the "my-stealing-$10,000-isn't-a-
crime-because-someone-else-
stole-a-million" defense.

"#58 | Posted by 101Chairborne"

Code for "Struck Another Nerve"

I didn't see the label Terrorist as part of the Geneva Convention's terms to be included as part of the treaty - besides did Iraq or Afghanistan ever sign that treaty. One must assume the current (and previous) adminstrations are scared of the Rights Groups that they cower to their base. In previous wars these non-uniformed "misguided individuals" were shot after a military tribunal. What has changed is Liberals have gotten power. Kind of like the 1930's in Germany under the name of Socialisum.

Read the news, power is being transferred to people that think the populace breeds like maggots, population control is the answer and others that believe Castro is great. Not concerned because it does not directly affect you - eventually it will.

"We seem to have different definitions of torture."

And yours violates the Geneva Convention.

"Mine is doing permanent physical harm to someone."

How convenient.

" besides did Iraq or Afghanistan ever sign that treaty"

That's not a caveat to the treaties we signed.

That's not a caveat to the treaties we signed.

I think that they must be uniformed though according to the treaties we did sign.

tell your 1st grade grammer teacher you need help, now
#63 | Posted by Call2Arms | Flag: Bozo

This kind of shit just writes itself. And it almost invariably boomerangs on spelling Nazis and garmmar polizei

"Just the fact alone that we gained no real actionable intel from those we tortured"#77 | Posted by dutch46

are you kidding me? perhaps you should do a little research before shooting your mouth off or get your head out of your ass

#80 | Posted by Call2Arms | Flag: Can't Provide Any More Info On This Than Cheney - Doesn't Have A Clue

"garmmar(sic) polizei"

They're from Garmisch.

"tell your 1st grade grammer teacher you need help, now"

Suer enuogh, CallTuTuArms, jsut piont me in the riiight dierctoin.

#90 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed divulged information of tremendous value during his detention as a result of waterboarding. He is said to have helped point the way to the capture of Riduan Isamuddin (AKA Hambali), the Indonesian terrorist responsible for the 2002 bombings of night clubs in Bali. According to the Bush administration, he also provided information on an Al Qaeda leader in England.[137]

want more?

Ahhh, who ever posted # 77 has to be the most uninformed, ignorant individual on the planet. Oh well, it makes the rest of us look smarter.
Cheers!

Torture should be televised and they should have celebrity torturers and the public should be able vote on their favorite just like on all those Fox reality/competition shows.

want more?
#93 | Posted by Call2Arms

More than a cut-and-paste from Wikipedia which quotes an article from two years ago -- long before the content of the most recently released memos became available? In a word, yes.

And your earlier comment at #22 -- the one about
"lets ask the people in California who's lives were saved with information obtained by waterboarding terrorists what they think?" -- you do realize there's absolutley no credible evidence torture prevented a so-called "West Coast 9/11," don't you?

#96 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis

"According to the previously classified May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that was released by President Barack Obama last week, the thwarted attack -- which KSM called the "Second Wave"-- planned " to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into' a building in Los Angeles.""

Those who've argued "actionable intel" obtained through torture

When you get the time-space continuum problems worked out, CallTuTuArms, feel free to let us know. In the meantime, you can go back to being a half-assed spelling Nazi and member of the grammar polizei. You don't do that well, either, but you seem to be slightly more aware of your limitations in that department.

Syphilis
#98 | Posted by Call2Arms | Flag: Explains A Lot

We seem to have different definitions of torture. Mine is doing permanent physical harm to someone. What is yours?

#82 | Posted by Sniper

Seems pretty clear to me.

According to the Geneva Cnvention (we'll leave the Constitution out of it for now)

...torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity.

That's not a caveat to the treaties we signed.

I think that they must be uniformed though according to the treaties we did sign.

We signed the treaty. It does not matter if anyone else does. WE SIGNED IT. It does not matter whether the "enemy" signed it. WE SIGNED IT.

Common Article 2

This article states that the Geneva Conventions apply to all cases of international conflict, where at least one of the warring nations have ratified the Conventions. Primarily:

* The Conventions apply to all cases of declared war between signatory nations. This is the original sense of applicability, which predates the 1949 version.
* The Conventions apply to all cases of armed conflict between two or more signatory nations, even in the absence of a declaration of war. This language was added in 1949 to accommodate situations that have all the characteristics of war without the existence of a formal declaration of war, such as a police action.[7]
*The Conventions apply to a signatory nation even if the opposing nation is not bound by it.

1. Each State Party shall take effective legislative, administrative, judicial or other measures to prevent acts of torture in any territory under its jurisdiction.
2. No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat or war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture.
3. An order from a superior officer or a public authority may not be invoked as a justification of torture.

lets see here... am i going to believe an article writtin by somebody who apposes the war/Bush and will do anything to bash them?

not a chance...

why would your savior (BHO)release and support a document that says otherwise?

opposes... *sp haha

lets see here... am i going to believe an article writtin by somebody who apposes the war/Bush and will do anything to bash them?

not a chance...

of course you wouldn't...even if it is the TRUTH..."stay the course" bro!

even if it is the truth? clearly it isn't if BHO is saying otherwise. Everybody knows he wouldn't tell a lie...

No, there's no need for you to read an article by Timothy Noah -- although there's a chance that, having worked as a contributing editor to "The Washington Monthly," assistant managing editor at "US News and World Report," congressinal correspondnet for "Newsweek," "staff writer at "The New Republic," and a Washington reporter for the "Wall Street Journal" he might know just a little more about these matters than say, oh, you -- especially because the timeline he pieces together makes what you've said laughable.

But I understand your reluctance. Doing so would require an ability to read, reflect, use some rudimentary critical thinking skills, and actually live in a knowledge-based rather than faith-based reality. Clearly, you're not up to the task.

Your understanding of Noah's views on the war -- presumably you mean Bush's War of Choice -- well, that's bullshit, too. He was intially opposed to the war, then found himself supporting it because of Colin Powell's cartoon-rich presentation to the UN Security Council, and later moved into the anti-war position. He's been especially hard on the media for allowing itself to be conned by and then work as shills for the Bush Administration.

So that probably makes him especially odious to you.

Dick knows that all torture roads lead back to him so of course he'll view any investigation as being politically motivated. The more this man talks the better W. looks.

I'd like to torture ASKABL2. I don't want any info, I just want to torture him/her/it.

#110 | Posted by AndyB62 at 2009-08-31 03:17 PM | Reply | Flag: Pervert?

you probably believe everything you read huhh?
#109 | Posted by Call2Arms

No, in that department you and I differ. I read and actually check up on what's written. Take Timothy Noah's reporting of the timeline that demolishes your statement about California. Check around, kiddo, do some work and then tell me he's wrong. It's not like this is the first time that story's been set forth here on the DR. You a (supposedly) new poster so you wouldn't know (again, supposedly). But next time, come armored with some facts rather than the factoids you loons accept at face value because an authority figure mixes it in with your daily intake of soma.

"We signed the treaty. It does not matter if anyone else does. WE SIGNED IT. It does not matter whether the "enemy" signed it. WE SIGNED IT."

I'm sure the American Indians are glad to hear that.

i'm glad the people on this site (the majority of which are liberal) sorted out the topic

call2,
Do the words "Fuck off" mean anything to you? They should. Now fuck off.

Cheney is taking the OJ defense of "if the glove don't fit then you must acquit" to new places. For Cheney- if I get wood then it's all good.

"i'm glad the people on this site (the majority of which are liberal) sorted out the topic"

First, nobody said the topic was "sorted out." I said it had "been set forth here on the DR." You're welcome to give it a try and see if you can prove Noah's timeline is somehow flawed, but I really don't think you're up to it -- mainly because nobody's told you how to do it. In which case, it stands.

Second, as for "the people on this site (the majority of which are liberal)," you've been here, what, three days? What's the breakdown? I mean, by percentage? If you check the "Stats" available here, as of today among those DR posters reponding 37% think of themselves as "Liberal," 26% as "Conservative," nearly 22% as "Libertarian," with about 15% opting for "Other" or "None" in terms of political ideology. Those reporting amount to a small percentage of those actually registered, although many of those who're registered do not post regularly.

In any event, what do you consider "Liberal" and how have you arrived at the conclusion that "the majority" here fall into that category? What's a "Conservative"? What are you? It'll be helpful in future if you'd just lay it out now.

Terrorists, since they are not citizens, are not entitled to our judicial system or protected under our constitution, Dickhead.

#32 | POSTED BY BEACHBUZZ

Good to know that tourists are not entitled to the US judicial system or protected under the US constitution.

I will spread the word.

You'd think Buzzzzd could figure that out, illegal aliens getting hearings and all, but, well, as some geezer said in Ecclesiastes, "The race is not to the swift" but this is ridiculous.

I'm sure the American Indians are glad to hear that.

#113 | Posted by Petrous

Umm yes... not so much back then but now they are very glad we signed treaties. How many lawsuits have they won against the US Government so far because of treaty violations? There are still lawsuits in the legal pipelines too.

Shit. The US Justice Dept now sues on BEHALF of the American Indians.

But, you deflect. Two wrongs still don't make a right.

As for the Geneva Convention...

For the purposes of this arguement, there are three types of people...

Lawful Combatants:
Actual Soldiers, ESPECIALLY when on military posts and/or carrying out military duty. Fair targets, and also protected by international law, especially when captured.

Non-combatants:
Cannot be targetted. Very protected. CAN be ordered about within a war zone (told to get out of the way, even told to leave their own home). Two important details: A weapons factory can be attacked, even if staffed by non-combatants, but a nightclub that caters to soldiers is NOT a legal target.

For the most part, people largely agree on the above two points.

UNLAWFUL COMBATANTS:
These are the guys that the argument is about. According to IDIOTS, these guys are MORE protected then soldiers. The IDIOTS apply the protections that soldiers get, and if captured, ALSO the protections non-combatants get. (good argument can be made that unlawfuls get NIETHER protection, but the point is contended, hotly....)

There are very good reasons to ACTIVELY discourage the existance of "Illegal combatants".

Hiding among the population is one thing.... (and by itself, simple insugency does not an illegal combatant make)
ACTIVELY working to cause soldiers to unsure if the car approaching their check point is going to kill them IS SOMETHING ELSE.....
There has been more than one confirmed cases of soldiers responding to threats and killing non-combats who might have lived if lines had been clearer. But groups liek Al-Quada ACTIVELY blur the line.

Any "non-state militant" method of attack that actively tries to prevent soldiers from telling non-combatants from combatants in the moments leading up to violence is Terrorism.

Dressing in green, adding some leaves to your clothing and saying "Don't mind me, I'm just a bush" is fine. When preparing to attack. Enemy soldiers might start shooting into random plants when they are in doubt. Annoying, but mostly annoying to plants.

Getting into a civilian can, packed with bombs, and doing your best to look like a non-combatant car, and then self detonating as soon as you get near soldiers is VERY DIFFERENT. Now, to be safe, the soldiers have to start treating ALL non-combatant cars as potential military threats that can instantly kill them. Even the most honest soldiers can end up killing a car load of non-combatants, and in ALL SUCH CASES, ONLY THE TERRORISTS WHO BLURRED THE LINE ARE TO BLAME, NEVER THE SOLDIERS THAT PULLED THE TRIGGERS.

So, again, the crux issue is this: What protections for those who actively try to confuse soldiers and thus create non-combatant casualties when soldiers try and stay alive?

As for the Geneva Convention...
#121 | Posted by USAF242

Sounds like one of Johnson's windyups.

:>)

I hasten to add

As for the Geneva Convention...
#121 | Posted by USAF242

do you make this shit up as you go along?

We are talking about what happens AFTER someone is captured on the field of battle (or anywhere else) and when they are in American custody and their treatment in accordance with our laws and international law and treaty. I don't care what YOU call them or if they are in uniform or naked or dressed as a bush when you capture them. They ALL are humans and as such are entitled to humane treatment under the law.

Its hard to believe people are still wasting time defending the piece of Shit known as Dick.

Get a life

Beefers thinks this one issue will be used over and over again by the left to bash the right....

Beefers would also like to again point out that some of the sme people here on this site who are disgusted by the torture of suspected terrorists have no problem whith the fact that over three hundred thousand babys are aborted in this country every year without a word from them......

This is what happens when you make laws that give one group the green light to hurt people for any reason.... However, The left seems typically hypocritical on this one issue.... Partial birth abortions are the most disgusting thing ever to be sanctioned by this country..... Not slapping terorists.... They never seem to Own up to that fact

Mr.... Obama is against harming terrorists but perfectly OK with the sanctioning of Partial Birth Abortions..... PBO's are Clearly Murder of an unborn infant for what ever reason....

Beefers didn't see MR Bush getting off of his backside to stop it either.... To many VOTES at stake.......

Now Beefers isn't a Holy Roller or anything..... he has never carried a sign at the Abortion clinic...... But Beefers does have two children.

So when you read these stories in the news Beefers suggests you take it to be what it realy is....

Politicial BS and nothing more..... Both sides of the isle have known what was going on for years with captured terror suspects......

If you all of a sudden want to jump on the wagon and say you didn't know... Well then Enjoy the Cool Aid.... But in turn you should be ashamed of yourself. Because.... Beefers knows.... that you know that you are completely Full Of Dodo...... And this is nothing more than politics...

Beefers normaly stays out of Politics and posts like this.... For the time one spends in here arguing this point is indeed time wasted to the very last drop

Good to know that tourists are not entitled to the US judicial system or protected under the US constitution.

I will spread the word.

#118 | Posted by fribo at

Fabio - a terrorist captured on the battlefield or in a raid on foreign soil is considered an enemy combatant or POW. The US Constitution's Bill of Rights DO NOT apply to them. However, if you are a US citizen-terrorist captured here in the US, then you have rights.

(anxiously waiting for that long list of US citizens arrested in the USA still being held in Gitmo)

they have no regard for life (thousands of lives in fact), why should we care about them.

#44 | Posted by Call2Arms at 2009-08-31 01:25 PM | Reply | Flag:

So you have no regard for their lives. Using your "logic"...Why should we care about you?(or your admittedly uneducated emotive opinion)

They ALL are humans...
#124 | Posted by donnerboy

That statement can be debated. Most of them I would consider animals.

Most of them I would consider animals.

#129 | Posted by Beachbuzz at 2009-08-31 06:08 PM | Reply | Flag:

But the law doesn't.

a terrorist captured on the battlefield or in a raid on foreign soil is considered an enemy combatant or POW.

How do you, sitting there in your comfortable armchair, know that anyone of these folks are actually terrorists or even enemy combatants. Is a taxi driver a terrorist or an enemy combatant? What about the poor fucks scooped off the battlefield and turned over to the military by the tribal warlords for cash payments. Are YOU so sure they are guilty? How do you know? So you want to torture them to find out if they are guilty? OH VERY GOOD THINKING THERE!

Beefers thinks this one issue will be used over and over again by the left to bash the right....

Beefers have you been snorting your farts again?

Of course we will bash the fuck out of you for this! It is unacceptable. It is immoral and it is illegal. And we will NEVER let it go. Every time that stupid fuck of a VP opens his mouth we will be there to shovel his shit right back at him. There is no excuse for what he did. AS VP he had a responsibility AND DUTY to defend the Constitution against all enemies foriegn AND domestic. He should have done us all a favor and shot himself instead of his lawyer.

As for you trying to equate Torture with abortion I will not even comment on that particular brand of lunacy.

What about the poor fucks scooped off the battlefield and turned over to the military by the tribal warlords for cash payments. Are YOU so sure they are guilty?

I assume since they are on a BATTLEFIELD fighting our troops they are the enemy!

Well, I guess the solution is to call the C.I.A. on the carpet and ignore the threats. Probably not an effective strategy but if one of these Liberal's lose a son, daughter, Mom or Dad they will probably change their position of appeasement.

Bottom line: The interrogation techniques AUTHORIZED by the Bush Admin do not constitute torture as internationally defined. Waterboarding, sleep depravation, fake executions, the "electric drill threat" etc etc...none of them torture. Uncomfortable and/or damn scarry? You bet!

Did some interrogators commit acts that rose to the level of torture? Probably...and they should be punished...but this is another example of how the left wing, bush hating media have succeeded in equating "harsh interrogation techniques" with torture...to the point of making the terms interchangable.

and before you ask...no I sure wouldn't want to be waterboarded...but if you're asking that question, you probably support abortion and I bet you're glad you weren't aborted.

one last note: If waterboarding is such harsh and indefensable torture, how did Khalid Sheikh Mohammed survive it 183 times? and Abu Zubaydah 83 times?

I assume since they are on a BATTLEFIELD fighting our troops they are the enemy!

See THAT is why YOU are not in charge. You assume.

Everyone detained on a BATTLEFIELD is NOT an enemy soldier or a terrorist. Been watching too much tv I suspect.

Never heard of the Fog of War?

Bottom line: The interrogation techniques AUTHORIZED by the Bush Admin do not constitute torture as internationally defined. Waterboarding, sleep depravation, fake executions, the "electric drill threat" etc etc...none of them torture. Uncomfortable and/or damn scarry? You bet!

umm how wrong can you be!

Torture is not what YOU define it as.

An executive order signed by Obama now requires that interrogations of anyone in U.S. custody follow what's known as the Army Field Manual. The 384-page book lays out 19 interrogation techniques permitted by law and prohibits nine categories of others, including waterboarding, used by the Central Intelligence Agency during the Bush Administration, as well as forcing prisoners to be naked, as happened in the Abu Ghraib prisoner scandal.

Prohibited interrogation methods that many would say constitute torture: "Forcing the detainee to be naked, perform sexual acts, or pose in a sexual manner; Placing hoods or sacks over the head of a detainee; using duct tape over the eyes; Applying beatings, electric shock, burns, or other forms of physical pain; "Waterboarding"; Using military working dogs; Inducing hypothermia or heat injury; Conducting mock executions; Depriving the detainee of necessary food, water, or medical care."

one last note: If waterboarding is such harsh and indefensable torture, how did Khalid Sheikh Mohammed survive it 183 times? and Abu Zubaydah 83 times?

#134 | Posted by spabell

I bet I could torture you 183 times and not leave a single mark and you would survive. At least physically. That does not mean I did not torture because just I don't leave any evidence that can be used against me later. Waterboarding has always been a favorite method of torture since the 300 years of the Spanish Inquisition just because it does NOT leave a mark and it is very effective in getting you to say what the torturer wants. How many were burned at the stake because they admitted to being witches? Thousands! So either A)we had thousands of witches (Torture Werks! (tm)) or B) they all said what the Inquisition wanted them to say (False Information) to stop the torture.

Which was it A or B?

umm need to correct my last post.. thousands were burned as witches (I said that before I looked it up) there were thousands tortured mostly for being heretics i suppose there were a few witches tortured too.

The point still holds true...just replace witches with heretics.

A or B? Ahh...the old "false dilemma" logical fallacy...nice try.

Much of the information gained as a result of...we'll use your word..."torture" was/is verifiable. Unlike your stupid witch example...How can I prove I'm not a witch?

And I'm certain KSM and AZ didn't fear being burned at the stake.

It is a fact that KSM and AZ gave valid action-able intel that was used to thwart attacks (even the current administration says this)...but only after being...we'll use my word now..."harshly interrogated"...not before. Was all the info they gave legit?...nope...but some was...to me...its worth it. Both of these dudes are gonna be locked up in super-max for the rest of their lives anyway...so who cares if they're mentally damaged.

Call 2 Harms - you raging excuse of a sick human!

You, CHENEY and all you deranged evil bush lickers need to MOVE TO SOMALIA, IRAQ or AFGHAN and leave American Now for the sane, civilized folks - Good RIDDANCE!

EVERYTHING Y'all WANT America to BE
CHENEY has built in IRAQ by generation-stealing $TRILLIONS of our own TAX Dollars..!!

Necon Paradise: IRAQ / Afghan / Somalia

No pesky Government, No Laws, No Taxes, No Social Programs, No Civility!
Unlimited Gun Totin', Killin', Enslavin', Torturin', Rapin', Lyin', Stealin', Exploitin', Greedin'

(Bonus: Blacks, Minorities, Weak humans already pre-included)

Then y'all can read the BIBLE on Sundays and continue faking to be "Christians" by NOT FOLLOWING A SINGLE WORD!???

So RepubliTarded, and yet so Near! - DRB

"Then y'all can read the BIBLE on Sundays and continue faking to be "Christians" by NOT FOLLOWING A SINGLE WORD!???"

the devil's word?

i.e. no tinnitus...

The Cheney-Bush experience reminds us of what we've been. The Cheney afterthoughts should serve to remind us that this ugliness will not go away. We torture. We are a torturing people. We will always be a torturing people. herm

Cheney and all the Yahoo Y'allers still want the old SOUTH with Guns, Slaves, Torture, Stealing, Raping, etc, etc, work of Satan!

But Y'ALL LOST THE CIVIL WAR so MOVE ON and OUT!!

Git' y'alls Guns and (pretend) Bibles and GO to SOMALIA and live the RepubliCON Redneck DREAM there, Not in AMERICA!!

Remember when they told us we had to fight against "tyranny." Those words become more hollow as I learn more about they ways that they wanted to fignt against "tyranny." Bush and Cheney make me question my pride in being American. DEfend them as you will but there just isn't an argument than will convince me that they honestly were combatting "tyranny" after I have learned about the techniques they authorized. They were "tyranny."

Never heard of the Fog of War?

#135 | Posted by donnerboy

Yes I have. So are you saying during the "fog" we are picking up goat hearders and farmers just because we can? That's absurd. Just because the Dailykos says so doesn't make it so.

(Still...anxiously waiting for that long list of US citizens arrested in the USA still being held in Gitmo)

(Still...anxiously waiting for that long list of US citizens arrested in the USA still being held in Gitmo)

#143 | Posted by Beachbuzz

Still waiting for the fools who say torture is the American Way to find Jesus...to find the passage in the bible that proves this:>)

You're right, no more torture, it's time to put these fuckers down like sick dogs.

(Rex- just want to remind you to email Beachbuzz, since I'm posting)

Lil' Betelg...I got the flare from Rex. Anytime you are posting we email each other....

#303 | Posted by Beachbuzz at 2009-08-30 11:34 PM | Reply | Flag:

LOFL.

Lil' Betelg...I got the flare from Rex. Anytime you are posting we email each other....

#303 | Posted by Beachbuzz

You really think I was serious? LOL!

You're right, no more torture, it's time to put these fuckers down like sick dogs.

#145 | Posted by r_zeitgeist at 2009-08-31 10:04 PM | Reply | Flag:

Yeah, we could did a big pit, execute all of the prisoners, and then fill in the mass grave for proud posterity to uncover. Oh, but Obama and the Left are the Nazis....

(BTW, you must have forgotten to email Beachbuzz, because he hasn't shown up within 2 minutes as he or you always does whenever either one of you darkens my path)

LOL!!!!!! Right on cue!!!

You really think I was serious? LOL!

#148 | Posted by Beachbuzz at 2009-08-31 10:12 PM | Reply | Flag:

Now what would lead me to believe that!!!!?????

You two are really fucking pathetic.

I think we should repatriate these terrorists back to their home countries, at least their heads, in nice new tan boxes.

You're right, no more torture, it's time to put these fuckers down like sick dogs.

#145 | Posted by r_zeitgeist

been reading the bible again ~ Rexy?

Must be a coinkydink there Lil' Star.

Why? You taking a poll?

We killed people.

We tortured people to death.

We beat people to death.

Yea Baby!

Time for round two!

when it gets done to you again ~ soon enough, as Marcus suggests at the ending of "Gladitor"?

to his buddy ~ the emperor

What are you mumbling about?

Speak english or pipe down.

or Maximus ~ excuse me...not his mentor

"Time for round two!"

Posted by r_zeitgeist

Have a nice time as trot line bait.

ZeiG heil you psychopathic puke!

Read my earlier Posts and take your mental disorders to Iraq or Somalia where y'alls bush lickin' satan worship sickos have made it to your likin'

Stop trying to regress America backwards to the Ol' Slavin' South before we git' piss'd and whoops y'alls ass again nah!

Of course, with Hussein in power, there has never been a better time to be a terrorist.

They have a fellow terrorist in the white house, short lived as that will be.

They have a fellow terrorist in the white house, short lived as that will be.

#163 | Posted by r_zeitgeist

certainly Cheney succeeded as a world class terrorist far better than wantabe u ~ Rexy dear

The modern liberal definition of torture is making someone uncomfortable :)

The modern liberal definition of torture is making someone uncomfortable :)

#165 | Posted by MSgt

Except when Bwaney Fwank is having rough anal sex with a teen age boy, then it's good clean fun.

Except when Bwaney Fwank is having rough anal sex with a teen age boy, then it's good clean fun.

#166 | Posted by r_zeitgeist

Are You "Clean' Inside?
How cleansing can help you beat occasional constipation, bloating, tiredness and skin problems while gaining more energy and a flatter stomach

Except when Larry Craig is gang sucking toilet trash scumbags while your kid is in the next stall

Cheney was more likeable back when he wore a hat, monicle and carried an umbrella cane on Batman!

Got way more dark, evil, sinister and dangerous!!

Y'alls remember Larry Craig, right!?

Reckon him and 2 other RepuliGays Leaders all in the same month was found cheatin' on their wives and RepubliCrits still demanded they stay on and all keep their jobs as great leadership..?

Odd that being married, gay and sucking cock is fine and completely understandable;
but having a young girl do it warrants attempted forced removal from office and shutting down the entire American govt for a full year!?

Soooo RepubliTarded, and yet so near! - DRB

Of course, with Hussein in power, there had never been a better time to be a terrorist.

They had a fellow terrorist in the white house, short lived as that was to be.

#163 | Posted by r_zeitgeist at 2009-08-31 11:00 PM

100% Agree!

When Saddam ruled and Rumsfeel shook hands with him while delivering tons of weapons - the best thing for terrorists was having terrorist Dubya in the white house.

Pres drunk Cowboy actually was mission accomplished!

* Increased global terrorism every year in office, while dissolving the annual report that revealed the truth and dangerous trends

* Provided over 200,000 "lost" guns and over $14 billions of un-investigated American Tax dollars in "lost" funds for his Bin Laden pals in Iraq

* Provided $Billions in Iraq Oil to the Taliban

* Provided increased recruiting tools for Al Quada and practice grounds and enemies for them to train

so its nothing BUT political and a preceedent that obama may one day REALLY wish he hadnt started

That's the point! Investigations and prosecutions (if warranted) are supposed to be a deterrent to bad behavior. Let this be a warning to the current and future administrations, follow the damn law!

i'm not about torturing innocent people

#46 | POSTED BY CALL2ARMS

That is nice of you.

Good to know that tourists are not entitled to the US judicial system or protected under the US constitution.

I will spread the word.
#118 | Posted by fribo at

Fabio - a terrorist captured on the battlefield or in a raid on foreign soil is considered an enemy combatant or POW. The US Constitution's Bill of Rights DO NOT apply to them. However, if you are a US citizen-terrorist captured here in the US, then you have rights.
(anxiously waiting for that long list of US citizens arrested in the USA still being held in Gitmo)

#125 | POSTED BY BEACHBUZZ

I answered to the claim, that only Americas are citizens which are protected by the US law and constitition. If that is true - every tourist should know that before booking a flight to the US.

Question for the "Bush is Hitler" crowd.....

There are terrorists who FORCE our soldiers to worry that the next car that drives up next to them will explode. (These terrorists do this by driving suicide cars near our soldiers and exploding them.....). The result of this is BLURRED for our soldiers on "what is the target?"

Key Point:
--AVODING COMBAT between attacks by hiding among civilians is one thing. Non-states militants have no choice on this, they MUST use this tactic, and it is not (by itself) terrorism.
--ATTACKING while pretending to be a non-combatant is different. This is terrorism. The problem with this is that it CAUSES soldiers to fire on ACTUAL non-combatants because the soldiers sometimes think the non-combatants are in fact combatants.

so.....

Why should captured terrorists be as protected as legitimate combatants, or protected as captured criminals, or anywhere near that?

But if Addington, Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rummy, Scalia, Wolfy or Yoo, to name a few, had to endure these practices you would hear them singing and entirely different song.

Look the truth is 97% of the people tortured under this regime had nothing of value to share with our Government. Most were a product of random roundups triggered by bounties posted by US forces.

Tens of thousands of innocents were tortured for no reason, in direct violation of our bill of rights forbidding cruel and unusual punishment. Darth Cheney was a mastermind in all this. Send him to the Hague for trial. That would be far more due process than he ever afforded the innocent victims of his unconstitutional policies.

The last administration are the one's that instituted Facist policies. Leave it to these con-artists to accuse Obama of doing it first.

usaf

The VC lived and worked among us dressed as civilians. Many "insurgents" who resist those who invade/occupy their country are civilians.

Did we afford Geneva to Charlie in nam?

Furthermore, the govt of Afghanistan at the time we invaded/occupied was the Taleban. Included in their ministry of defense was Al Queda. Ministry of defense, does that tell you something? Govt's military.

I've already had this discussion with others on a different thread about the 12 year old boy held for 7 years. You and your fascist leaning buddies want to focus on ONE tiny section of the GC, (2b), to deny GC to "enemy combatants". This was thought up by neocon lawyers as a technicality to be able to do as they pleased. Try reading ALL of the GC and see if some sections don't apply to a country invaded/occupied, whose military barely resisted. Then, tell us how these "enemy combatants" were rounded up and detained indefinitely and which of them attacked the usa.

???

One other thingy. Becoming MORE like our enemies is no victory in any sense of the word. To the CONTRARY.....OBL and his minions cheer each and everytime they know we changed our rules of law, invaded/occupied mid east countries that didn't attack us, and refused the GC to detainees. Great recruitment and the INCREASE in terrorism since 911 proves that law enforcement and diplomacy is the better way to capture, convict and incarcerate/terminate terrorists.

Do it. And while you are at it, see what the rest of the people who live and work in Manhattan, people who had their lives disrupted, for a while thinking that WWIII had begun. what they think. I believe you will be surprised by both answers.

#28 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine at

so both of you want to ask new yorkers this question?
okaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
yyyy.

how about asking them about the "greening of 9/11" by van jones ..ONE OF THE COMMUNIST in the obama administration..

bottom line to all of you from anyside of argument

ask the people who may have had thier lives saved by making a couple of terrorists 'uncomfortable'..
sure you dont know who they may be..people who use the brooklyn bridge or work at the tower in LA that were proven to be targets of attacks HALTED by info from KSM...........
and now this is the time that we read some liberal horseshit about how uh,...no thats not true even though its in one of the reports and right after that we will read some nonsense about how the last 8 years of no mass terrorist killing was just a
co incidence...

"the tower in LA that were proven to be targets of attacks HALTED by info from KSM...."

WTF are you babbling about this time?

How did torturing KSM in 2003 and beyond prevent the LA attack in 2002?

ask the people who may have had thier lives saved

Like who?

"How did torturing KSM in 2003 and beyond prevent the LA attack in 2002?"

Posted by Danforth

Wayback machine.

"How did torturing KSM in 2003 and beyond prevent the LA attack in 2002?"

Part of the problem lies in the this: those who've claimed torture

I used to love rocky and bullwinkle.........

and thats a nice little input there doc.

still works out that there were several incidents prevented no matter HOW much that may piss you off...

still works out that there were several incidents prevented no matter HOW much that may piss you off...

#184 | POSTED BY AFKABL2 AT 2009-09-01 11:48 AM |

And the links to this proof are where???

Your bs about the LA tower was just debunked and like most rwrs, you just continue to spew misinformation anyhow.....

too easy....

Let's see what the repug candydate has to say about torture....you know, the one who actually SERVED in a war.....and a POW...

But, I'm sure you and self serving hallichainy know so much better, eh? LMFAO

"I think the interrogations were in violation of the Geneva Conventions and the convention against torture that we ratified under President Reagan," said the Arizona Republican. "I think these interrogations, once publicized, helped al Qaeda recruit. I got that from an al Qaeda operative in a prison camp in Iraq... I think that the ability of us to work with our allies was harmed. And I believe that information, according go the FBI and others, could have been gained through other members."

The senator, appearing on CBS' Face the Nation, offered his assessment just hours after Cheney defended the use of torture during an interview with Fox News Sunday. Host Bob Schieffer pushed McCain to explain how it was that an al Qaeda member had told him that the use of torture helped them recruit.

Relaying a conversation that he and Sen. Lindsey Graham, (R-S.C.) had with a jailed "high-ranking member of al Qaeda," McCain replied that pictures of detainee abuse at Abu Ghraib had allowed the terrorist organization "to recruit thousands of young men."

Torture Not Improper or Illegal

That isn't what he said ass hole.

Hey Libs,

I am not sure what your parents did to you during childhood but it has obviously had an undesirable effect on your ability to assimilate rudimentary problems. For example, some of you have stated that we did not gain actionable information from the field is absurd and contrary to the truth. Have you read the C.I.A. briefings? I am sorry that you are so alienated and disenfranchised that you cannot function on a normal level and lack the critical thinking skills that normal people have. Your disregard for the truth is astounding.

The fact that you don't get it is not surprising, but the fact that you hate our country and what our forefathers stood for is astonishing to me. If you indeed do have such dislikes for this country why not just leave. I have an idea, why don't you go coddle these gentle, good-natured gents that you are defending and blog your progress.

our forefathers stood for beating people to death?

Yep!

"It's clearly a political move. I mean, there's no other rationale for why they're doing this."

This ass-hat STILL confuses the legal process with the political process. He views EVERYTHING through a prism of partisan resentment and he values blind loyalty above all else. Combine that with his fanatical support of the Unitary Executive theory and you get one crazy SOB.

That he thinks an investigation into whether laws were broken is "clearly a political move" with "no other rationale" is like him saying the sky is blue. It's par for the course.

FTFA: "I knew about the waterboarding, not specifically in any one particular case, but as a general policy that we had approved," said Mr. Cheney, who noted that neither a gun nor a drill had actually been used on detainees. "The fact of the matter is the Justice Department reviewed all those allegations several years ago."

"The judgment was made then that there wasn't anything that was improper or illegal," said Mr. Cheney

The Justice department under BushCo didn't deserve the name.

Waterboarding is torture.

Torture is wrong.

Always.

People died because of decisions this man made.

Innocent people in many cases died horrible unneccesary deaths.

A proper investigation is well in order.

Be Well.

Torture is wrong.

Always.

I bet you'd change your tune if Vancouver was in the crosshairs of these sadistic bastards.

"We also have to work, though, sort of the dark side, if you will. We've got to spend time in the shadows in the intelligence world. A lot of what needs to be done here will have to be done quietly, without any discussion, using sources and methods that are available to our intelligence agencies, if we're going to be successful. That's the world these folks operate in, and so it's going to be vital for us to use any means at our disposal, basically, to achieve our objective."

~Dick Cheney On MtP w/ Tim Russert Sept 16, 2001

"He who does battle with monsters needs to watch out lest he in the process becomes a monster himself,"

"And if you stare too long into the abyss, the abyss will stare right back at you."

~Nietzche 'Beyond Good and Evil' 1886.

Be Well.

I bet you'd change your tune if Vancouver was in the crosshairs of these sadistic bastards.

~Jeff J.

No Jeff, Spud wouldn't.

Your emotionally overly charged and underly realistic 24esque scenario you keep re-iterating here at the DR would not influence Spud's moral abhorance and zero tolerance for torture one iota.

Particularily when practised by a so-called civilised government.

Once you okay state terror you pretty much justify every other terrorist on the planet.

Do Not Want.

Be Well.

We are all staring into the abyss of socialism. Close your eyes!!!!

#192

The point is that we are a nation of laws, not Kings.

Cheeeney thinks he was above the law, and needs to be reminded different.

I watched him say on TV this week that even if his loosey-goosey rules were apparently broken, that there should be no investigation.

I bet you'd change your tune if Vancouver was in the crosshairs of these sadistic bastards.

#192 | Posted by JeffJ at 2009-09-01 01:29 PM | Reply | Flag:

It troubles me to feel the need to ask this, but....

Which sadistic bastards? 'Ours', or 'theirs'?

#195 | Posted by tennisnut at 2009-09-01 01:33 PM | Reply | Flag: Wouldn't know Socialism if it bit him on the ass

I watched him say on TV this week that even if his loosey-goosey rules were apparently broken, that there should be no investigation.
#196 | Posted by Corky

That is great American television right there.

Which sadistic bastards? 'Ours', or 'theirs'?

#197 | Posted by BetelG

Theirs.

Your emotionally overly charged and underly realistic 24esque scenario you keep re-iterating here at the DR would not influence Spud's moral abhorance and zero tolerance for torture one iota.

Underly realistic?

9-11 happened
London happened
Madrid happened
The Cole happened
Beirut happened
'93 WTC happened
Etc.

How many times does shit like this have to happen before you are willing to acknowledge the ticking time bomb scenario is in fact real and is not the product of some right-wing goons who get their jollies by torturing brown people for no good reason whatsoever?

-the product of some right-wing goons who get their jollies by torturing brown people for no good reason whatsoever?

Jeff is correct, the thread subject is Cheney.

#201 | Posted by Corky

Funny!

Opps! Cheeeney. I mispronounced it.

Jeff j-
I'm sorry that I had to ask the question. I didn't feel I needed to back when Reagan said this while signing the international Convention Against Torture:

"No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat or war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture. . . Each State Party shall ensure that all acts of torture are offences under its criminal law."

-- Ronald Wilson Reagan

Yes it all happened but many have their heads in the sand and are more focused on the rights of the animals that have perpetrated the wrongs. How ironic!

** Cheney: Torture Not Improper or Illegal **

.....neither is shooting lawyers in the face....for some people....

Freedom from torture is an inalienable human right.

But no longer cause if possibly maybe could be would might be attacked no inalienable human right.

JeffJ needs to learn the definition of inalienable.

No exceptional circumstances whatsoever...

(In case you missed it, Jeff)

-- Ronald Wilson Reagan

He's a RINO now.

#204 | Posted by BetelG

1. You guys have expanded the definition of torture to the point of absurdity. According to you, hanging out with a caterpillar is torture. Having cigar smoke blown in your face it torture.

2. Official policy and unofficial policy are 2 different things. Do you honestly believe that captured Soviet spies were treated humanely?

The world is a rough place and the stakes are high.

....neither is shooting lawyers in the face....for some people....
#206 | Posted by skizziks

You're right. I'd forgotten.

I want to be Dick Cheney.

(In case you missed it, Jeff)

#208 | Posted by BetelG

I didn't miss it.

I find it hilarious that you are quoting Reagan, a man you despised, as if his word is unassailable.

I also find it hilarious that you seem to believe that captured Russian spies weren't pumped for information by whatever means necessary at the time.

Cheney is an ass. Cheney has no regard for our laws. Cheney spent most of his time trying to fend for the rich and figure out new ways to circumvent laws of justice to gain a larger foothold into a greater power within his authority.

Cheney shows a total disregard for anything our nation stands upon.

But no longer cause if possibly maybe could be would might be attacked no inalienable human right.

Channeling Moneywar?

Cheney shows a total disregard for anything our nation stands upon.
#213 | Posted by roman

I'll be here waiting for when Obama has Holder bring him up on charges.

I guess people took Regan so seriously that he did not have to resort to such tactics. Great leaders like Reagan are gone and now we have reverted to political hacks like Obama.

Jeff J-
Perhaps we should change our laws and publicly abrogate our treaties (some of which were signed by Reagan) to make the US a state that proudly practices torture. That, at least, would be honest.

Maybe you could lead the charge, Jeff. Write letters to your congressmen advocating that torture be a legal prerogative of the President and Vice-President.

You mean these tortured vics were spies???? You mean the 12 year old sent to gitmo from Iraq was spying on the U.S. and all that was being done was pumping for information.......from a 12 year old.

You're a sad fearful man, very sad.

I also find it hilarious that you seem to believe that captured Russian spies weren't pumped for information by whatever means necessary at the time.

#212 | Posted by JeffJ at 2009-09-01 01:53 PM | Reply | Flag:

Really? You think that the United States of America has been a big version of the Khmer Rouge all along?

Betelg,
I don't see the use now. Remember our President is an appeaser and is a practicing Marxist, and our V.P., whoa, who knows what he practices; no one lets him speak anymore.

Waterboarding is torture.

Torture is wrong.

Always.

-SPUD

How's your stance on late term abortions SPUD? Keep your canadian faux outrage in check then. - "your pitiful little island (country) hasn't even been threatened" - Ernst Blofeld.

I mean really. Who would invade Canada unless they needed ice?

Really? You think that the United States of America has been a big version of the Khmer Rouge all along?

#219 | Posted by BetelG

Uh huh. We enslaved our entire population. We killed 3 million people in the 'killing fields'.

Your moral equivalance is fucking absurd.

Perhaps we should change our laws and publicly abrogate our treaties (some of which were signed by Reagan) to make the US a state that proudly practices torture. That, at least, would be honest.

It would also be stupid. Some things are best handled discretely - behind closed doors.

#204 | Posted by BetelG

1. You guys have expanded the definition of torture to the point of absurdity. According to you, hanging out with a caterpillar is torture. Having cigar smoke blown in your face it torture.

2. Official policy and unofficial policy are 2 different things. Do you honestly believe that captured Soviet spies were treated humanely?

The world is a rough place and the stakes are high.

#210 | Posted by JeffJ

We killed people

We beat people to death

we beat people senseless

Abu Graib

rendition.

black sites

coercing false intel to justify an act of agression.

stress positions till shoulders are dislocated.

rape

threatening children to get their parents to talk

humiliation.

these are all things we have done. They resulted from official and unofficial policies from the highest parts of our government.

Behind closed doors---------A real man of laws.

LOL!

Reporters have documented over 100 deaths in IRaq alone, over a 2 year period from torture, homicides. Evidence and reporting shows that autopsies were falsified.

Abu Graib was the torture policies made public.

If you support torture you support what we did in Abu Graib.

Period.

Your moral equivalance is fucking absurd.

It's your moral "equivalance" that is absurd. Your United States of America is not a beacon of freedom and liberty on a hill, but a thuggish empire whose only difference between itself and its enemy is its power.

I reject that notion, "patriot".

It would also be stupid. Some things are best handled discretely - behind closed doors.

#222 | Posted by JeffJ

That was what was done. from the fall of 2001 till that brave soldier released the abu graib photos. It was done behind closed doors. but unfortunately for you truth comes out.

Truth hurts donut.

You advocate abu graib style interrogation techniques. You are ok with abu graib. That is what you are advocating.

Some of the detainees had actionable intelligence, according to you since that intelligence would be used to save american lives, anything done is justifiable as it would save american lives.

there is your scenario jeffj. Abu graib was acceptable. Own it, admit it or show where my logic is false.

Come on JeffJ move beyond the theoretical and state without condition that abu graib was acceptable and what america should be doing.

#228 | Posted by truthhurts

Don't be an ass. Of course Abu Graihb was an attrocity. I just wish you got anywhere remotely as excersized when a journalist has his head chopped off on film.

Do we allow a U.S. citizen who robs a bank and kills a teller to be tortured?

It's interesting people think that the status of ones residence changes the mindset of basic human rights.

It's your moral "equivalance" that is absurd. Your United States of America is not a beacon of freedom and liberty on a hill, but a thuggish empire whose only difference between itself and its enemy is its power.

The hell it isn't, you whiny sack of shit.

My United States of America doesn't make apologies for opposing assholes who are taught the Suras by fucked-up hateful Wassabi clerics. My US doesn't apologize for cliterectomies. My US doesn't apologize for the institutional beating of wives and daughters for going to the market sans a burqa. My US doesn't approve of a justice system where a man is punished by having his sister gang-raped by a rival family - of course she is then dishonored and must be killed. My US doesn't approve of cutting off limbs as punishment for petty thievery.

Most importantly, MY US doesn't apologize for taking extreme measures, under extreme circumstances, to prevent these twisted assholes from inflicting great harm on our citizens.

Did you perform a Mexican hat-dance out of sheer joy on 9-11?

Torture is wrong.

Always.

I bet you'd change your tune if Vancouver was in the crosshairs of these sadistic bastards.

#192 | Posted by JeffJ

hmmm jeff, this is one of your posts.

at abu graib, americans literally had their asses in crosshairs of dangerous and effective enemies.

you are hypocritical to call abu graib an atrocity when you are advocating and defending the use of torture. Is it because you see the pictures of it in action that you change your tune?

Abu Graib

We had detainees with actionable intelligence.

we tortured them to gain intelligence to prevent attacks against American soldiers.

presumably this saved american lives.

Why is abu graib an atrocity and other torture not?

Or is your argument that the US can commit atrocities to protect ourselves?

Again what is the difference between abu graib and what you are advocating? Please be specific.

Don't be an ass. Of course Abu Graihb was an attrocity. I just wish you got anywhere remotely as excersized when a journalist has his head chopped off on film.

#229 | Posted by JeffJ at 2009-09-01 02:17 PM | Reply | Flag:

But it would have been better if you had never heard of it, Jeff?

Some things are best handled discretely - behind closed doors.

Eh?

Furthermore, your "moral equivalance" rests not in our fabric as a nation, but on a relative scale, ever-changing and dependent upon the morality of our enemies, and how often you wet your pants. Hardly a voice any should listen to.

We are OK, we just mame, they kill.

Don't be an ass. Of course Abu Graihb was an attrocity. I just wish you got anywhere remotely as excersized when a journalist has his head chopped off on film.

#229 | Posted by JeffJ

I am angered by the murdering of innocents.

However, I am more angered when the action is done in my name spewing the stain on me.

It's interesting people think that the status of ones residence changes the mindset of basic human rights.

#230 | Posted by roman

It's also interesting that people think that rights should be extended to individuals who spit on the very document these rights are contained within.

But it would have been better if you had never heard of it, Jeff?

Apples and oranges.

Being sadistic just for the fun of it is one thing.

Using harsh measures to obtain vital information is another thing.

Yes, the line can be blurry - but a clear distinction exists between the 2.

ever-changing and dependent upon the morality of our enemies, and how often you wet your pants.

Jesus H. Christ.

I am not 'wetting my pants.'

Fact is I, nor anybody I care about, actually live in an area that is likely to be hit. I have little to fear, personally. That DOESN'T mean that I just don't give a shit about the welfare and safety of my fellow Americans.

Most importantly, MY US doesn't apologize for taking extreme measures, under extreme circumstances, to prevent these twisted assholes from inflicting great harm on our citizens.

You just said that the US taking extreme measures under extreme circumstances, to prevent these twisted assholes from inflicting great harm on our citizens an atrocity.

again, what is the difference between abu graib and what you are arguing. Please be specific.

BTW you mentioned earlier terrorist attacks in London, Madrid etc. These were attacks against our allies. PResumably the Iraqis are our allies and there were far more attacks against innocent civilians in Iraq than were killed in London Madrid etc. So the potential argument is the difference between AG and what you are advocating is the potential civilian targets is well just wrong.

again, what is the difference between abu graib and what you are arguing. Please be specific.

Most importantly, MY US doesn't apologize for taking extreme measures, under extreme circumstances, to prevent these twisted assholes from inflicting great harm on our citizens.

My US doesn't pretend its own laws don't exist based on how frightened you are.

Did you perform a Mexican hat-dance out of sheer joy on 9-11?

And my US doesn't listen to fools who have nowhere to go in their argument, and so must to declare their fellow citizens traitors.

"so its nothing BUT political and a preceedent that obama may one day REALLY wish he hadnt started"

That's the point! Investigations and prosecutions (if warranted) are supposed to be a deterrent to bad behavior. Let this be a warning to the current and future administrations, follow the damn law!

#172 | Posted by fedupwithpols

Of course, Obama can always pardon Cheney, our beloved ex-vp:>)

Gotta run - the lawn needs to be mowed.

I just wish you got anywhere remotely as excersized when a journalist has his head chopped off on film.

Umm here's the thing.

People kinda expect crazy, wild-eyed, religious extremist terrorist types to commit inexcusable, brutal and sickening acts like the beheading of Daniel Pearl.

That's a given.

People kinda expect a little more from a government that is supposedly ruled by law and reason.

They are right to do so.

The right wing tactic of bringing up the supposed unsatisfactory reactions of lefties to acts like Pearl's beheading is a classic deflection that advances the dialogue not one whit.

One's moral viewpoint should never be impacted by nationality, sexuality, race, creed or economic status.

American lives are not worth more than other folks lives.

Learn this.

Be Well.

It's interesting people think that the status of ones residence changes the mindset of basic human rights.

#230 | Posted by roman

It's also interesting that people think that rights should be extended to individuals who spit on the very document these rights are contained within.

#236 | Posted by JeffJ

Freedom from torture is an inalienable human right.

George W. Bush.

It's also interesting that people think that rights should be extended to individuals who spit on the very document these rights are contained within.

You either believe in the rights of the document or it is just a god damn piece of paper.

Gotta run - the lawn needs to be mowed.

#242 | Posted by JeffJ

Translation: I am getting my ass OWNED.

Being sadistic just for the fun of it is one thing.

Using harsh measures to obtain vital information is another thing.

Yes, the line can be blurry - but a clear distinction exists between the 2.

#237 | Posted by JeffJ at 2009-09-01 02:26 PM | Reply | Flag:

Oh it does. The lower-level hacks Bush/Cheney went to for legal justification of torture were emphatic on that point. Torture for pleasure was way beyond the pale, of course, but for informational purposes only pain associated with organ failure or death was impermissible.

I bet you'd change your tune if Vancouver was in the crosshairs of these sadistic bastards.

#192 | Posted by JeffJ

Which "Inglorious Basterds"?

And my US doesn't listen to fools who have nowhere to go in their argument, and so must to declare their fellow citizens traitors.

I didn't declare you a traitor. I jokingly suggested that you are more concerned about the welfare of some sadistic, bigoted homophobes than you are American citizens.

I don't understand what you advocate.

We can't kill them.

When we catch them they have to be mirandized, provided legal counsel on the taxpayers' dime and ultimately released because, while they were planning to harm our nation, they hadn't actually succeeded in doing so.

Let's just play catch and release as if we are fishing on Grandpa's dock.

If they are successful in attacking us, we deserved it due to American hegemony.

So, let's just allow attack after attack and make no attempt to defend ourselves or thwart these attacks because these assholes deserve better than what we afford our own citizens.

It's INGLOURIOUS BASTERDS.

"I didn't declare you a traitor."

"Did you perform a Mexican hat-dance out of sheer joy on 9-11?"

STFU, Jeff, and go mow your lawn.

Translation: I am getting my ass OWNED

Uh huh.

I will gladly return to this forum and have you and Boyd explain how to effectively fight this threat, since you guys oppose EVERY measure conceivable - why don't we just give these dicks 20 nuclear bombs and let them do what they will.

Seriously, what measures do you support?

Any?

In reality - I DO have to mow the lawn. Sorry.

Gotta run - the lawn needs to be mowed.

#242 | Posted by JeffJ

did mine last nite...too much rain lately, not enough GW...wrong bet again ~ damn!

I will gladly return to this forum and have you and Boyd explain how to effectively fight this threat, since you guys oppose EVERY measure conceivable - why don't we just give these dicks 20 nuclear bombs and let them do what they will.

Can you have a conversation with an actual person, or is your position so weak that you can only face a fantasy apparition who performed "a Mexican hat-dance out of sheer joy on 9-11?", asshole?

"When we catch them they have to be mirandized, provided legal counsel on the taxpayers' dime and ultimately released because, while they were planning to harm our nation, they hadn't actually succeeded in doing so."

Denial becomes so heart warming when it's coming from one of our own American First Family's of lore...

Bush Flubs it Again
Details and Confirmation of Prior Knowledge

re: since you guys oppose EVERY measure conceivable - why don't we just give these dicks 20 nuclear bombs and let them do what they will.

I'm sick of that crap. Fucktards when cornered with unsupportable bullshit arguments even they can't defend always resort to stupid shit like this.

Gotta run - the lawn needs to be mowed.

#242 | Posted by JeffJ

Translation: I am getting my ass OWNED.

#246 | Posted by truthhurts at 2009-09-01 02:31 PM | Reply | Flag: Doesn't understand that some people have a life outside of this blog

Flag: Read the thread, Goat, instead of reflexively supporting your little blog friend.

Hey JJ

Was the Cole bombing a terrorist attack in your opinion?

Seriously, what measures do you support?
Any?
In reality - I DO have to mow the lawn. Sorry.
#252 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2009-09-01 02:36 PM

Man, I can use nearly any excuse to avoid "THE LAWN"....LOL

For the UMPTEENTH TIME, LAW ENFORCEMENT with DIPLOMACY with other countries helped capture, convict, incarcerate/terminate the terrorists who attacked us in the 90's.

Gotta run - the lawn needs to be mowed.

#242 | Posted by JeffJ
e
Translation: I am getting my ass OWNED.

#246 | Posted by truthhurts at 2009-09-01 02:31 PM | Reply | Flag: Doesn't understand that some people have a life outside of this blog

#257 | Posted by goatman

I spent years working off this life's marijuana karma via mowing the grass in my dreams...ommmmmmmmmmmmm

I'll see y'all around. Gotta go mow the yard, or whatever...

too much rain lately, not enough GW...wrong bet again ~ damn!

I'm jealous. It is a drought in San ANtonio. Everything is brown. I haven't cut my grass once this year. Sucks.

I'll see y'all around. Gotta go mow the yard, or whatever...

......change handles.

data's available!

a⋅tro⋅cious  [uh-troh-shuhs] Show IPA
Use atrociousness in a Sentence
adjective
1. extremely or shockingly wicked, cruel, or brutal: an atrocious crime.
2. shockingly bad or tasteless; dreadful; abominable: an atrocious painting; atrocious manners.
Origin:
166070; atroci(ty) + -ous

Related forms:
a⋅tro⋅cious⋅ly, adverb
a⋅tro⋅cious⋅ness, noun

Synonyms:
1. felonious, heinous, monstrous, diabolical, devilish. 2. execrable; detestable.

CHENEY/GINGRICH 2012!

CHENEY/GINGRICH 2012!

......They could beat Obama, at this point !

CHENEY/GINGRICH 2012!

....At least SOME Americans will end up having money !

(Bull Horn)

Pffffft Pffffft...... Squeeeeelllll.......

We would like to anounce that the origional draft of the legal memo sanctioning Bush Era interagation methods has been found.......
(whispering) What?.....Pffft Squeellll Pfffft..... (Angry Whispering) Oh...... Sorry I forgot...... (Whispering) Oh..... I didn't know that......

We have just been informed that the entire document is not available as it has yet to be retrieved in it's entirety from the white house chimney...... Squeel Pffft..... (angry Whispering) What.... Oh.... You didn't tell me that...... Ok....

Squeel... Screeeeeeech..... Sorry... My Mistake...... The document has yet to be retrieved from the Bush white house Archives...... We have a small section of the memo regarding the use of torture and I have been asked to read it allowed to the press assembled here...... screeeeeech!!! Pfttttttt.....

The top of the page has been burned...... What? (Angry Whispering) Oh.... Sorry

We will now read a portion made available for release to the public..... Squeelllll.....Screeeech.....P
fffftttt.....

It Just starts right in here..... Quote.... And in closing Mr President... In regard to MR Cheney's request.... As your Legal advisor I must say that This request is far outside the scope of what I was brought in to advise on.... Furthermore, If I were you Mr President, I would slap him around a bit and maybe stick his head under the Faucet because the man is clearly crazy...... End Quote..... Squeeeelll Pfffftttt Screeeech.........

(Whispering) What?..... Oh.... Ha Ha.... Yes your right Fog Hat...... Squeel Screeech..... We have just been informed that Mr Bush Apparently is an IDIOT!

Beefers OUT!

CHENEY/GINGRICH 2012!

.......Protect Private Health Care for the Sake of the Guy that Just Posted Above This One!

Beefers thinks that politics has taken the humor out of the 8roper type people.... Sad to see.... When a person is soooooooooo Partisn that they can't laugh..... Enjoy the coolaid and the nice ride my friend.......

Cheney will never be elected in 2012.... That is ust silly...... I will say that there are people on the left here just as nutz about their side....

Beefers has no party......

CHENEY/GINGRICH 2012!

....At least SOME Americans will end up having money !

#268 | Posted by 8roper

yup all two of them would have money...your campaign money.

CHENEY/GINGRICH 2012!

......They could beat Obama, at this point !

#267 | Posted by 8roper

Plz dear God make it so! I promise that I will believe in your mighty and holy and wondrous sense of Godly humor if you just let them plz run together in 2012 against Obama.

And maybe they could have the slogan:

A New Contract for America...Torture Werks! (tm)

thank you your worshipness!

.... Sad to see.... When a person is soooooooooo Partisn that they can't laugh.....

#271 | Posted by beefers

Give me something funny to laugh at and I will laugh.

Turd.

Posting inane rambling in which you speak to yourself and in which you try to create a dialogue between people, saying nonsensical idiotic things.....is not funny.

There is defintely ONE person here whom politics has taken the humor out of -

#271 | Posted by beefers

Oh yeah and BTW it is much more effective, after you say
Beefers Out!

to get gone from the thread permanently - not hang around looking for FFs for your retarded rambling crap.

-ROPER OUT!

8 Raper, you putrid stench of a Shitbag!

You Shaivo brains never learn nuthin'..!!

Y'all just keep bending over and begging the rich man for more abuse!??

Hard to imagine You ditto-dorks all crave more of these proven results:

Jacking the national debt by over $9 TRILLION tax dollars in 8 years, totally reversing the annual budget surplus to an enormous deficit
Yet, zero to show but lost jobs, lost civil rights, lost industries, lost economy, 100s of thousands murdered, $10s of billions and 100s of thousands of weapons "lost", global terrorism increased every year by double digits, military weakened, etc, etc all designed to reward the wealthiest and punish all American who are "have lesses"

Sooooooo RepubliTarded, and yet so Near! - DRB

Truely funny when you see theses tampon wearing libs act like they have any ground to stand on when it comes to interrogation techniques and the standart operational porcedures that have warranted these techniques in accordance with the geneva convention...

Have any of you even been waterboarded before? My nephews in my pool would be far more effective!

I tell you what go to S.E.R.E school and then maybe you can have some ground to stand on.. Until then, how about we stick to the childish name calling and finding yet another way you can call me a racist...

How copy over?

"Cheney: Torture Not Improper or Illegal"???

REALLY??? So then lets round up all the members of the Bush Regime (including the entire US Supreme Court) and rigorously do to them what they (illegally) did to thousands of innocent victims!!! I'm not saying we should torture Bush,Cheney,Ashcroft and Rumsfeld etc.to death - No! Just somewhere real,real close to there!!!!

Bush Regime (including the entire US Supreme Court) and rigorously do to them what they (illegally) did to thousands of innocent victims!!!
Honestly????

Have you ever looked at any of these "thousands of innocent victims" dead in their eyes before??? You would see a depth of hate your liberal little heart could not phathom. Believe me!

Have you fought on a forward line in accordance with the Geneva Convention against an enemy that will give you no meals, no sleep, no mercy.. just your headless dead bloated body sent back to your family with a united states flag as a parting gift.

I do not advocate the actions of those pathetic criminals that don't deserve the title as soldier.
Their actions should not reflect on the men and women of our armed forces that in your sted pick up a weapon and defend your constitution and liberal way of life.

Dont worry I will thank my boys for you. I will say ANTICADILLAC thanks you for his freedoms to blog on drudge everyday..

I'll leave you with this....

If you are not willing to stand behind our men and women of the armed forces.... by all means sir..... Stand in front of them!

I'm sick of that crap. Fucktards when cornered with unsupportable bullshit arguments even they can't defend always resort to stupid shit like this.

#256 | Posted by BetelG

It's called sarcasm, Boyd.

Let's put the snarkiness aside for a moment.

Please spell out with great specificity which interrogation methods you support.

Where do you draw the line?

I've made it very clear where I draw the line.

If you are going to sit there and call me a thug and barbarian, then at least have the stones to articulate YOUR position.

What value do you place on the safety and welfare of American citizens?

The threat is real - I can provide countless occurrences to support this contention - and those were just the successes. How many planned attacks have been thwarted?

Put up or shut up, asshole. Where do you draw the line?

PS - Ever wonder why the Mossad is so brutally effective? Because they have to be. They are literally in the belly of the beast and the citizens of Israel expect their government to value and protect their safety.

Ever wonder why the Mossad is so brutally effective?

Cos they learned at the feet of the SS?

Be Well.

Truely funny when you see theses tampon wearing libs ...etc...

Until then, how about we stick to the childish name calling and finding yet another way you can call me a racist...

#277 | POSTED BY LIBERTYMONGER AT 2009-09-01 07:46 PM

HAHAHAAHAhHhahaaahaaAHAHAAHAAH
AHA

HA

Have you fought on a forward line in accordance with the Geneva Convention
#279 | POSTED BY LIBERTYMONGER AT 2009-09-01 09:31 PM

Have you?

Do tell!

Couple of points

1. There is a reason the military and veterans support the Geneva Convention.

2. Deny it to others, you are denying to our own troops.

3. There is NO evidence torture works. The victims will tell their torturers whatever they want to hear...regardless of veracity. Furthermore, other methods work without sacrificing our values, rule of law and GC.

4. Torture has made us less safe, increased terrorism and recruitment of other enemies against the usa.

5. Read what McCain, Petraeus and other war veterans have to say on the subject instead of believing 5 deferment hallichainy, analcyst rushaddict and others who don't know shit about it....eh?

1. There is a reason the military and veterans support the Geneva Convention.

2. Deny it to others, you are denying to our own troops.

Non-sequitur. Geneva Conventions point out a series of criteria that have to be met in order to receive POW status. Terrorists don't meet a single criteria.

There is NO evidence torture works...

5. Read what McCain,

McCain contradicts himself. He admitted that he reached his breaking point. He capitulated to the demands of the VC in order to make the pain stop. He's even been called a traitor by lefties for this. He is proof positive that torture DOES work. It has a long, documented history of working. It's not 100% effective, nothing is. But it DOES work.

4. Torture has made us less safe, increased terrorism and recruitment of other enemies against the usa.

That is a bullshit talking-point that has no foundation in reality. Middle Easterners expect to be tortured when in the captivity of their enemies. Now, Abu Graihb is a completely different issue. Given their pious beliefs and that jihadists are largely fighting against what they perceive to be the West attempting to import its decadence and immorality into their lands; the sexual shit at Abu Graihb has proven to be fantastic recruiting fodder.

Non-sequitur. Geneva Conventions point out a series of criteria that have to be met in order to receive POW status. Terrorists don't meet a single criteria.

#285 | Posted by JeffJ at 2009-09-02 08:38 AM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

Doesn't matter the SCOTUS declared detainees in Gitmo have Geneva Convention Rights. Oh and they have Constitutional rights.

Larry

McCain contradicts himself. He admitted that he reached his breaking point. He capitulated to the demands of the VC in order to make the pain stop. He's even been called a traitor by lefties for this. He is proof positive that torture DOES work. It has a long, documented history of working. It's not 100% effective, nothing is. But it DOES work.

#285 | Posted by JeffJ at 2009-09-02 08:38 AM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

Now You are just telling bullshit loies JeffJ. I have shown You time and time again Torture does not work. Period.

Larry

Jeff J

Section 2b is but ONE section of the GC. It is the section that the torturemongers used as a technicallity to pretend there is such a thing as "enemy combatants"

At the time we invaded Afghanistan, the Taleban was the accepted govt by their people and AlQueda was part of their ministry of defense......this makes them covered under GC. As far as iraqnam is concerned, how do you figure that thousands of citizens of a country that never attacked us deserve to be tortured to give hallichainy some info supporting his invasion/occupation would not be covered.

READ ALL the GC and you will see that one tiny section does not disclude those we "captured", illegallyd detained indefinitely and torture interrogated....

The documentation for these points can be found where i posted them on the thread about the 12 year old boy that spent 7 years in gitmo.

Here, argue with your former hero......

Petraeus Against Torture, For Closing Gitmo
by: Jon Soltz
Tue May 26, 2009 at 11:48:45 AM EDT

Last year, those on the right loved General Petraeus. You couldn't debate anyone on the neocon side without them trying to hide behind the General. There were even rumors swirling that Republicans would recruit him to be their nominee in 2012. Then, supporters of Governor Palin found their new nominee for 2012, but they think General Petraeus would make a fine subordinate to the Governor in a Dream Ticket in four years.
Well, don't look now, but our friend Sam Stein at the Huffington Post reports:

General David Petraeus said this past weekend that President Obama's decision to close down Gitmo and end harsh interrogation techniques would benefit the United States in the broader war on terror.
General Petraeus goes on to say that he believes we need to stay within the Geneva Convention, and that closing Gitmo "sends an important message to the world, as does the commitment of the United States to observe the Geneva Convention when it comes to the treatment of detainees."

Of course, this flies in the face of the Rush Limbaugh and Dick Cheney crowd - those who believe that we're safer when we do things that serve as great recruiting tools for al Qaeda.

and btw Jeff J

Tell us, how many of those hijackers were iraqi or afghanis???

NONE, eh?

Begin to THINK for yourself and stop listening to "far" right loons....that never served anyone but themselves

Tell us, how many of those hijackers were iraqi or afghanis???

I never said otherwise.

Begin to THINK for yourself and stop listening to "far" right loons....that never served anyone but themselves

You are free to rationalize that people disagree with your worldview solely because they are unthinking drones being told what to think by Rush Limbaugh.

It isn't true, but it probably makes things easier for you to believe otherwise.

Woke doesn't think taking out the terrorist training camps in afghanistan was important.

You're a one trick pony old man. There are a group of people here that follow Rush, Hannity, etc, but nearly as many that slobber over Olbermann, Kos, HuffPo, and Jon Stewart. It just so happens your kneejerk response of telling those you disagree with that they get marching orders from Rush, Hannity, et all, never are the ones that actually listen or pay attention to them.

Like Sully said when he was kicking your ass all over the thread the other day, keep building strawmen.

The reason you worked with retards is because you are one.

It isn't true, but it probably makes things easier for you to believe otherwise.
#290 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2009-09-02 09:11 AM

Ok Jeff...I'll bite, WHERE do you get your info that torture works and is condoned for some people?

Jack Bauer?

What is you expertize in the subject of torture? Did you serve? Have you been educated by the military on the GC? WHO IS telling you this BULLSHIT, if not chickenhawk, war/torture mongers who didn't keep us safe on 911??

Show me some reports/articles of war veterans agreeing with torture...with LINKS please....I will post a myriad of article from war vets who disagree.

I find it incredible that your party RAN mccain, yet you NOW want to pretend he is LESS THAN, since he's saying something you don't agree with....Same with Petraeus who is saying not only does torture not work, but better results can be obtained otherwise AND torture has made us LESS SAFE AND our allies shy away from supporting our goals....

do tell Jeff...

As for 101CHERRY

Join up sonnyboy...your country needs you. In the process, you might learn a thing or two you don't know...eh?

WHERE do you get your info that torture works...
posted by Warloser

John McCain said it worked on him. Next.

Join up sonnyboy...your country needs you. In the process, you might learn a thing or two you don't know...eh?

#293 | Posted by woke at 2009-09-02 09:22 AM | Reply

I told you once already old man, enlisted punks like you called me "Sir". Now go clean the latrine.

WHERE do you get your info that torture works...
posted by Warloser

Waterboarding worked on KSM. Next.

Waterboarding worked on KSM. Next.

Posted by JeffJ at 2009-09-02 09:24 AM | Reply

Liar He made up shit to tell them. NEXTTTTTTTTTTTT

John McCain said it worked on him. Next.
#294 | POSTED BY 101CHAIRBORNE AT 2009-09-02 09:23 AM

Waterboarding worked on KSM. Next.
#296 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2009-09-02 09:24 AM

LINKs to referenced articles please......

do tell Jeff...

History has proven on countless occasions that torture is an effective way to obtain purposefully-hidden information.

If you want to argue against its usage on moral grounds - fine - that is perfectly legitimate.

But don't sit there and pretend that this shit doesn't work. It does. It always has and always will.

History has proven on countless occasions that torture is an effective way to obtain purposefully-hidden information.

If you want to argue against its usage on moral grounds - fine - that is perfectly legitimate.

But don't sit there and pretend that this shit doesn't work. It does. It always has and always will.

Posted by JeffJ at 2009-09-02 09:27 AM | Reply

LIAR LIAR PANTS ON FUCKING FIRE.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Liar He made up shit to tell them.

Actually, he gave up good information - information that he didn't want to give up.

Next.

LINKs to referenced articles please......

John McCain admitted to such in his book.

Go pick up a copy.

LIAR LIAR PANTS ON FUCKING FIRE.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

#300 | Posted by LarryMohr

Nope. It works. Deal with it.

"If you want to argue against its usage on moral grounds - fine - that is perfectly legitimate."

I prefer the legal argument with its foundations in the moral, but that's just me.

If you're unaware of what McCain said then that's on you. Look it up yourself.

Had my assertion been seldom heard, I'd provide a link.

I prefer the legal argument with its foundations in the moral, but that's just me.

#303 | Posted by Hagbard_Celine at 2009-09-02 09:29 AM | Reply

I prefer throwing morals out the window and leaving every available option on the table. What sense do "morals" make when waging a war against religious zealots that have no morals?

Q: What sense do "morals" make when waging a war against religious zealots that have no morals?

A: They don't. We have an inherent and intrinsic right to defend ourselves from harm. Regrettably, the existing laws don't adequately deal with the threat we currently face.

PS - Right or wrong, torture works. Always has, always will.

Does torture really work?

The fact is that no "trial by ordeal," be it physical, psychological or chemical will insure that we can: (1) actually get information from the detainee, and (2) guarantee that what ever information extracted is true, a reality with which most interrogation "experts" will agree.

But what forms of "ordeal" are acceptable and who decides, and how do we know that we're dealing with an individual who truly possesses the information that we so desperately seek? If we have no guarantee of getting information, if we have no reason to believe what someone tells us under duress is true, if we are allowed to decide the limits of such stress and duress techniques on a local level without oversight, and if we're really not sure that the detainee even has the information we want is there justification for the use of torture, or does it just become summary punishment administered perhaps by immature, misguided and untrained individuals (at best), or by manipulative self-serving sociopaths (at worst)?

I can say with all certainty that torture would work on me.

Next

PS - Right or wrong, torture works. Always has, always will.

Posted by JeffJ at 2009-09-02 09:34 AM | Reply

Liar now You done pissed Me off JeffJ. I have shown You that torture does not work. COUNTLOESS TIMES. and yet You continue with this line of bullshit.

Chair,

That sums it up perfectly.

I have shown You that torture does not work. COUNTLOESS TIMES.

You have done nothing of the sort.

You have copied and pasted text from extremely biased sources that fixate on the (fully acknowledged) situations where torture doesn't work. I have stated on countless occasions that it isn't 100% foolproof. But, it's proven to be overall successful throughout the history of mankind.

I am sorry that you are so wrong about this.

You have copied and pasted text from extremely biased sources that fixate on the (fully acknowledged) situations where torture doesn't work. I have stated on countless occasions that it isn't 100% foolproof. But, it's proven to be overall successful throughout the history of mankind.

I am sorry that you are so wrong about this.

Posted by JeffJ at 2009-09-02 09:42 AM | Reply

You are the one who is lying and now You are saying that they are incredibly biased. Unfuckingbelievable. Live in Your fucking delusions JeffJ I will live in the reality based community. THANK YOU.

Larry

This is eerily similar to Danforth's claims that the government-run rationing of healthcare will actually improve the quality of care on a substantial basis. He actaully asserts that a 2-week wait for cancer treatment is shittier than a 2-year wait for the same treatment. The illogic is almost unfathomable.

I will live in the reality based community.

Reality?

Reality is that torture is effective. It always has been and always will be.

Sorry.

You have copied and pasted text from extremely biased sources that fixate on the (fully acknowledged) situations where torture doesn't work. I have stated on countless occasions that it isn't 100% foolproof. But, it's proven to be overall successful throughout the history of mankind.

I am sorry that you are so wrong about this.

#313 | Posted by JeffJ at 2009-09-02 09:42 AM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

Oh and dude wasn't it You who always jumped My ass about saying don't say it's a biased piece just because it's from the American Thinker?? Yes it was. Amazing simply amazing.

Larry

Fuck it I have better things to do.

Reality is that torture is effective. It always has been and always will be.

Sorry.

#316 | Posted by JeffJ at 2009-09-02 09:45 AM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

Not according to the facts SORRY

I have shown You that torture does not work

You have shown nothing. You C&Ped a web site. Would you like to have a battle of links? I can provide many that say torture does work.

Was John McCain lying in his book? Am I lying when I say torture would work on me?

Fuck it I have better things to do.

#318 | Posted by LarryMohr at 2009-09-02 09:46 AM | Reply

I feel sorry for your neighbors.

Oh and dude wasn't it You who always jumped My ass about saying don't say it's a biased piece just because it's from the American Thinker?? Yes it was. Amazing simply amazing.

The differnce being I actually articulated an on-point rejoinder in lieu of simply attacking the messenger.

Am I lying when I say torture would work on me?

#320 | Posted by goatman

No.

Torture would work on me.

I am not proud of that fact, but it's nonetheless a fact.

Okay liberals it appears this subject is a hard one for you but I understand Hellen Kellar had a hard time figuring things out for herself too.

I just find it amazing how these ARM CHAIR GENERALS read a couple of articles and become self proclaimed experts in the matter.

I would love to go completely indepth to shed some light in the matter but

1. This is not a dod secure site.
2. Most liberals dont have the needed clearance.

Your right tortue doesn't work. We have just been REALLY LUCKY with our intel the past couple of hundred years.

I say again have you ever been waterboarded???
Our own soldiers are treated far worse in S.E.R.E. school than your best friends the terrorists are treated.

These Interrogation techniques are used in relevance to the detainee. With some the appearance and threat of torture is effective and with others the induction of torture is effective.

We are failing to realize that we outright shoot and kill these terrorists on a daily basis and there death does not benefit us in the least. But in these interrogations that terrorist saves 100's.

I doubt you'll find the water all you Hellen Kellars out there but if I can shed light on just one.....

" have you ever been waterboarded??? Our own soldiers are treated far worse in S.E.R.E. school than your best friends the terrorists are treated."

Complete and total lie. No soldiers are waterboarded 183 times. And terrorists don't have signals to stop the torture, nor the comfort of knowing it's being done by friends.

Okay Fagforth...

If it is a lie I want actuall boots on ground knowledge from you Fagforth because Savior Cest Pavor.

Have you ever been waterboarded fagforth?
Are you an Alumni from S.E.R.E. school fagforth?

Answer my questions directly fagforth.

But don't sit there and pretend that this shit doesn't work. It does. It always has and always will.
#299 | POSTED BY JEFFJ AT 2009-09-02 09:27 AM

I can provide many that say torture does work.
Was John McCain lying in his book? Am I lying when I say torture would work on me?

#320 | POSTED BY GOATMAN AT 2009-09-02 09:47 AM

Yet, you can provide ZERO FACTS with LINKS, eh?

LOL

I just find it amazing how these ARM CHAIR GENERALS read a couple of articles and become self proclaimed experts in the matter.
#324 | POSTED BY LIBERTYMONGER AT 2009-09-02 11:11 AM

I just find it amazing how you can pretend you have any FACTS and continue to spew bs from self serving war profiteer and 5 deferment hallichainy.....while IGNORING what war vet and pow McCain says on the subject and/or Gen. Petraeus......

Let's see some FACTS and/or opinions from actual WAR VETERANS bro!

Yet, you can provide ZERO FACTS with LINKS, eh?

So if I make a web page that says torture would work on me and link to it you would believe it, but if I say it here you don't? LOL

For the posters thinking they can TWIST McCain's words....to support their political partisan goals.....

I began to recover my wits and my interrogators came to the hospital to resume their work. The beatings were of short duration because I let out a hair-raising scream when they occurred and my interrogators appeared concerned that hospital personnel might object.

Eventually I gave them my ship's name and squadron number. When asked to identify future targets, I recited the names of north Vietnamese cities that had already been bombed.

For almost two months, nothing happened. Then the punishment sessions began. I was hauled into an empty room and kept there for four days. At intervals, the guards returned to administer beatings.

One guard held me while the others pounded away.

They cracked several of my ribs and broke a couple of teeth. Weakened by beatings and dysentery, with my right leg again almost useless, I found it impossible to stand.

On the third night I lay in my blood and waste, so tired and hurt that I could not move. Three guards lifted me to my feet and gave me the worst beating yet. They left me lying on the floor moaning from the stabbing pain in my re-fractured arm.

Despairing of any relief from pain and further torture, I tried to take my life. After several unsuccessful attempts, I managed to stand. Up-ending the waste bucket, I stepped on it, bracing myself against the wall with my good arm.

I looped my shirt through the shutters. As I looped it around my neck, a guard saw the shirt through the window, pulled me off the bucket and beat me.

Later, I made a second, feebler attempt at suicide. On the fourth day, I gave up. I signed a confession that "I am a black criminal and I have performed the deeds of an air pilot".

The guards ordered me to record my confession on tape. I refused, and was beaten until I consented.

from Faith of My Fathers, by John McCain

Okay I'm front and center woke. Ask away!!!! I'm here... Its my day off and I'd love to discuss this with you does 3 deployments in Afghanistan and 1 in Iraq account for facts and opinions??? Let me know.

and its not bro its staff sergeant. Lock it up.

Mccain is an amazing story.. Had the opportunity to visit the Hanoi Hilton myself when I was stationed in Southeast Asia. How about we ask the thousands of people that were in the same situation as Mccain... Oh wait you would find them in a shallow grave somewhere.. They were tortured to death.. Some of them sadly didn't uphold their code of conduct upon capture and thousands more americain soldiers died because of that intel

In a strong pushback against claims made by former Vice President Dick Cheney, Sen. John McCain insisted on Sunday that the use of torture on terrorism suspects violated international law, didn't work, and actually helped al Qaeda recruit additional members.

"I think the interrogations were in violation of the Geneva Conventions and the convention against torture that we ratified under President Reagan," said the Arizona Republican. "I think these interrogations, once publicized, helped al Qaeda recruit. I got that from an al Qaeda operative in a prison camp in Iraq... I think that the ability of us to work with our allies was harmed. And I believe that information, according go the FBI and others, could have been gained through other members."

The senator, appearing on CBS' Face the Nation, offered his assessment just hours after Cheney defended the use of torture during an interview with Fox News Sunday. Host Bob Schieffer pushed McCain to explain how it was that an al Qaeda member had told him that the use of torture helped them recruit.

Relaying a conversation that he and Sen. Lindsey Graham, (R-S.C.) had with a jailed "high-ranking member of al Qaeda," McCain replied that pictures of detainee abuse at Abu Ghraib had allowed the terrorist organization "to recruit thousands of young men."

WHat about you, woke? You could hold up under torture? You wouldn't blab? Torture wouldn't work on you?

You are a stronger person than I, then.

Here is an account by John McCain about another POW he was with:

They had to break his already broken right arm a second time, and threaten to break the other, before Bud gave them anything at all.

i was waterboarded. i held up for about 10 seconds before i admitted to unspeakably grotesque acts with my best friend's bulldog.

so i am living proof that torture doesn't work. as much as i'd freely admit I'd engage in unspeakably grotesque acts with my best friend's TOY POODLE, bulldogs are waaaay out of my league.

Okay Fagforth...
#326 | POSTED BY LIBERTYMONGER AT 2009-09-02 11:39 AM

Your namecalling makes a great argument monger....

LMFAO @ you....

So if I make a web page that says torture would work on me and link to it you would believe it, but if I say it here you don't? LOL

#328 | POSTED BY GOATMAN AT 2009-09-02 12:02 PM

Is that ALL you have? Your own OPINION? What do you base your opinion on goatman? Any facts from someone that would KNOW?

By contrast, it is easy to find experienced U.S. officers who argue precisely the opposite. Meet, for example, retired Air Force Col. John Rothrock, who, as a young captain, headed a combat interrogation team in Vietnam. More than once he was faced with a ticking time-bomb scenario: a captured Vietcong guerrilla who knew of plans to kill Americans. What was done in such cases was "not nice," he says. "But we did not physically abuse them." Rothrock used psychology, the shock of capture and of the unexpected. Once, he let a prisoner see a wounded comrade die. Yet -- as he remembers saying to the "desperate and honorable officers" who wanted him to move faster -- "if I take a Bunsen burner to the guy's genitals, he's going to tell you just about anything," which would be pointless. Rothrock, who is no squishy liberal, says that he doesn't know "any professional intelligence officers of my generation who would think this is a good idea."

Or listen to Army Col. Stuart Herrington, a military intelligence specialist who conducted interrogations in Vietnam, Panama and Iraq during Desert Storm, and who was sent by the Pentagon in 2003 -- long before Abu Ghraib -- to assess interrogations in Iraq. Aside from its immorality and its illegality, says Herrington, torture is simply "not a good way to get information." In his experience, nine out of 10 people can be persuaded to talk with no "stress methods" at all, let alone cruel and unusual ones. Asked whether that would be true of religiously motivated fanatics, he says that the "batting average" might be lower: "perhaps six out of ten." And if you beat up the remaining four? "They'll just tell you anything to get you to stop."

Worse, you'll have the other side effects of torture. It "endangers our soldiers on the battlefield by encouraging reciprocity." It does "damage to our country's image" and undermines our credibility in Iraq. That, in the long run, outweighs any theoretical benefit. Herrington's confidential Pentagon report, which he won't discuss but which was leaked to The Post a month ago, goes farther. In that document, he warned that members of an elite military and CIA task force were abusing detainees in Iraq, that their activities could be "making gratuitous enemies" and that prisoner abuse "is counterproductive to the Coalition's efforts to win the cooperation of the Iraqi citizenry." Far from rescuing Americans, in other words, the use of "special methods" might help explain why the war is going so badly.

An up-to-date illustration of the colonel's point appeared in recently released FBI documents from the naval base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. These show, among other things, that some military intelligence officers wanted to use harsher interrogation methods than the FBI did. As a result, complained one inspector, "every time the FBI established a rapport with a detainee, the military would step in and the detainee would stop being cooperative." So much for the utility of torture.

WHat about you, woke? You could hold up under torture? You wouldn't blab? Torture wouldn't work on you?
You are a stronger person than I, then.
Here is an account by John McCain about another POW he was with:
They had to break his already broken right arm a second time, and threaten to break the other, before Bud gave them anything at all.
www.news.com.au
#332 | POSTED BY GOATMAN AT 2009-09-02 12:09 PM

That is a stupid, strawman argument goat......of course it would work to get me to say any damned thing they wanted me to say...

Do you believe that information would be VALID and worth using?

Hello? Anyone home?

WHAT info did "bud" give them? Don't know do you?

LINKS to valid references on the subject please.....

monger

I have ONLY your word you ever even served son....but if you have a pissing contest to prove veracity of my pov...

USAF 68-72
Security
including gas truck convoy, perimeter and base security from Bien Hoa to Tay Nihn....69-70....

Wanna denigrate my service like you are mccain and petraeus and your own military training on Geneva Conventions..??

Be my guest

Is that ALL you have? Your own OPINION?

It's not an opinion. IT's a fact. I know for a fact that I would succomb to torture. Prove me wrong.

I asked you: Would you stand up to torture? Yes or no.

TABLES TURNED
Waterboarding Used to Be a Crime

By Evan Wallach
Sunday, November 4, 2007; Page B01
As a JAG in the Nevada National Guard, I used to lecture the soldiers of the 72nd Military Police Company every year about their legal obligations when they guarded prisoners. I'd always conclude by saying, "I know you won't remember everything I told you today, but just remember what your mom told you: Do unto others as you would have others do unto you." That's a pretty good standard for life and for the law, and even though I left the unit in 1995, I like to think that some of my teaching had carried over when the 72nd refused to participate in misconduct at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison.

Sometimes, though, the questions we face about detainees and interrogation get more specific. One such set of questions relates to "waterboarding."
>>
The United States knows quite a bit about waterboarding. The U.S. government -- whether acting alone before domestic courts, commissions and courts-martial or as part of the world community -- has not only condemned the use of water torture but has severely punished those who applied it.

After World War II, we convicted several Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American and Allied prisoners of war. At the trial of his captors, then-Lt. Chase J. Nielsen, one of the 1942 Army Air Forces officers who flew in the Doolittle Raid and was captured by the Japanese, testified: "I was given several types of torture. . . . I was given what they call the water cure." He was asked what he felt when the Japanese soldiers poured the water. "Well, I felt more or less like I was drowning," he replied, "just gasping between life and death."

>>
As a result of such accounts, a number of Japanese prison-camp officers and guards were convicted of torture that clearly violated the laws of war. They were not the only defendants convicted in such cases. As far back as the U.S. occupation of the Philippines after the 1898 Spanish-American War, U.S. soldiers were court-martialed for using the "water cure" to question Filipino guerrillas.

More recently, waterboarding cases have appeared in U.S. district courts. One was a civil action brought by several Filipinos seeking damages against the estate of former Philippine president Ferdinand Marcos. The plaintiffs claimed they had been subjected to torture, including water torture. The court awarded $766 million in damages, noting in its findings that "the plaintiffs experienced human rights violations including, but not limited to . . . the water cure, where a cloth was placed over the detainee's mouth and nose, and water producing a drowning sensation."

In 1983, federal prosecutors charged a Texas sheriff and three of his deputies with violating prisoners' civil rights by forcing confessions. The complaint alleged that the officers conspired to "subject prisoners to a suffocating water torture ordeal in order to coerce confessions. This generally included the placement of a towel over the nose and mouth of the prisoner and the pouring of water in the towel until the prisoner began to move, jerk, or otherwise indicate that he was suffocating and/or drowning."

The four defendants were convicted, and the sheriff was sentenced to 10 years in prison.

We know that U.S. military tribunals and U.S. judges have examined certain types of water-based interrogation and found that they constituted torture. That's a lesson worth learning. The study of law is, after all, largely the study of history. The law of war is no different. This history should be of value to those who seek to understand what the law is -- as well as what it ought to be.

Evan Wallach, a judge at the U.S. Court of International Trade in New York, teaches the law of war as an adjunct professor at Brooklyn Law School and New York Law School.

"This is eerily similar to Danforth's claims that the government-run rationing of healthcare will actually improve the quality of care on a substantial basis."

What a fucking twist of words. I've stated preventive care is MUCH cheaper than cure, and that universal access for wellness would save us in the long run.

Would you stand up to torture? Yes or no.

Nope. I am actually willing to bet they would never even have to get to the actual torture part either. Just show me the tools and tell me the plan and I will probably break right there.

I asked you: Would you stand up to torture? Yes or no.

#339 | POSTED BY GOATMAN AT 2009-09-02 12:32 PM | REPLY | FLAG:

asked and answered here goatman.....

#336

Your turn:
of what use is information gained from torture, when a person will say anything the interrogator wants to hear to make it stop?

THINK for yourself for a change son....

"It's not an opinion. IT's a fact. I know for a fact that I would succomb to torture. Prove me wrong."

goatman, there's a possibility you could die during torturing, so, if you died, you wouldn't get the chance to blab, so therefore, if not blabbing equates to standing up to the torture (as you infer), you couldn't possibly state that you'd wouldn't be able to, because you wouldn't know for sure if you'd even survive to blab, so it is not a fact, only an opinion.

now, what do i win?

Woke,
Torture works in the regard of "a person will say anything the interrogator wants to hear to make it stop" through repetition. The truth will be the same answer today, tomorrow, and next week, but a lie will change.

Airforce Security... wow... Again its a double edged sword. I only have your word. I'm not going to fax you my creds.

ex staff sergeant united states army

deployed afghanistan 82nd airborne 313th military intelligence battalion its deployment in Afghanistan location... where wasnt I from Balo to tarin kout to kandahar quick reaction force.

173rd Airborne brigade combat jump and deployment in Iraq from Kirkuk to Dibis Mosul Sunni Triangle.

173rd 2nd deployment in Afghanistan attatched to J.S.O.C. Joint special operations command as a voice interception operator. Took part with Operation mianishun biggest operation since Annocanda with a tole of 165 taliban casualties and only 4 coalition forces.

173rd 3rd deployment in Afghanistan attached to 525 M.I. as an intel analyst and 97e i.e. interrogator. I've been on all sides of the M.I. field.

That is a stupid, strawman argument goat......of course it would work to get me to say any damned thing they wanted me to say...

???

It's not a strawman at all. It's the very core of the issue AAMOF.

"Any damned thing they wanted me to say... includes the information they are looking for, I presume.

Then you admit that torture can work. Don't feel bad, it would work on me to.

Thank you

BEGALA: We -- our country executed Japanese soldiers who water- boarded American POWs. We executed them for the same crime that we are now committing ourselves. How do you defend that?

We chided Begala slightly because we thought he wasn't quite right on the facts:

Actually, Fleischer could have countered Begala by pointing out that we didn't actually execute the Japanese soldiers convicted of the war crime of waterboarding American prisoners -- we just sentenced them to 15 years' hard labor.

But now, Begala makes clear he knew whereof he spoke:

But I was not referring to Asano, nor was my source Sen. Kennedy. Instead I was referencing the statement of a different member of the Senate: John McCain. On November 29, 2007, Sen. McCain, while campaigning in St. Petersburg, Florida, said, "Following World War II war crime trials were convened. The Japanese were tried and convicted and hung for war crimes committed against American POWs. Among those charges for which they were convicted was waterboarding."

Sen. McCain was right and the National Review Online is wrong. Politifact, the St. Petersburg Times' truth-testing project (which this week was awarded a Pulitzer Prize), scrutinized Sen. McCain's statement and found it to be true. Here's the money quote from Politifact:

"McCain is referencing the Tokyo Trials, officially known as the International Military Tribunal for the Far East. After World War II, an international coalition convened to prosecute Japanese soldiers charged with torture. At the top of the list of techniques was water-based interrogation, known variously then as 'water cure,' 'water torture' and 'waterboarding,' according to the charging documents. It simulates drowning." Politifact went on to report, "A number of the Japanese soldiers convicted by American judges were hanged, while others received lengthy prison sentences or time in labor camps."

The folks at Politifact interviewed R. John Pritchard, the author of The Tokyo War Crimes Trial: The Complete Transcripts of the Proceedings of the International Military Tribunal for the Far East. They also interviewed Yuma Totani, history professor at the University of Nevada-Las Vegas, and consulted the Columbia Journal of Transnational Law, which published a law review article entitled, "Drop by Drop: Forgetting the History of Water Torture in U.S. Courts."

We apologize to Begala for the error.

We'll be waiting a long time, I expect, for all those right-wingers out there who claim waterboarding isn't torture to apologize to the world.

How about watching the Marathon Man and asking yourself "what would I do?" Personally, the horror of that movie to me is that I cannot think of a single thing I would have done differently.

How about watching the Marathon Man and asking yourself "what would I do?"

LOL. This is too funny. I was about to answer your 343 with:

"Me too. All I would have to hear are the words 'Is it safe?' and I'd be blabbering like a baby."

Then I saw your 350. LOL Great minds and all that.

goatman

HELLO??

Are you able to listen and understand that information gained from torture where people will say ANYTHING to make it stop is not reliable. Therefore my comment that your argument is strawman...of what use is unreliable info?

Secondly, information may be gained using other methods and when torture is begun, it actually STOPS that flow of info...

Here is another actual example...

Soufan: CIA torture actually hindered our intelligence gathering
An FBI agent testifies that an al-Qaida prisoner provided useful intelligence until the CIA got rough -- and casts doubt on Bush's statements about the effectiveness of harsh interrogations.

By Mark Benjamin

FBI agent Ali Soufan testifies from behind a black curtain and a room divider, right, in Washington Wednesday, during a hearing to examine the Bush administration's detention and interrogation program.

May 14, 2009 | WASHINGTON -- The testimony of a key witness at a Senate hearing Wednesday raised serious questions about the truthfulness of former President George W. Bush's own personal defense of the CIA's brutal interrogation program. Former FBI agent Ali Soufan also indicated that the harsh interrogation techniques may actually have hindered the collection of intelligence, causing a high-value prisoner to stop cooperating.

In the first congressional hearing on torture since the release of Bush administration memos that provided the legal justification for torture, Soufan told the Senate Judiciary Committee that the CIA's abusive techniques were "ineffective, slow and unreliable, and as a result harmful to our efforts to defeat al-Qaida." According to Soufan, his own nonviolent interrogation of an al-Qaida suspect was quickly yielding valuable, actionable intelligence -- until the CIA intervened.

Soufan was with the FBI on March 28, 2002, when the United States captured its first suspected al-Qaida operative after 9/11, a man named Abu Zubaydah, held at a secret location overseas. Soufan had investigated terrorism cases dating back to the East Africa embassy bombings in 1998, and he was one of the first experts called after Zubaydah's capture.

goatman, there's a possibility you could die during torturing, so, if you died, you wouldn't get the chance to blab, so therefore, if not blabbing equates to standing up to the torture (as you infer), you couldn't possibly state that you'd wouldn't be able to, because you wouldn't know for sure if you'd even survive to blab, so it is not a fact, only an opinion.

now, what do i win?

NOthing. I would be like kanrei. The second they unroll that cloth bag with rusty instruments and electrodes, I'd be blabbing away. I might die during torture, but would have already told them all they wanted to know long before then.

So you chose General Betray Us to be resounding voice of me and my brothers and sisters of the armed forces??? Betray Us has this nickname for a reason. He would stab you in the back and in the front for a free meal.. moving on...

You libs have no Idea about the intelligence gathered and the effective operations that saved 100's of soldiers...

I really have alot of respect for Mccain.. He was a soldier several decades ago. He is a politician now. Don't hold onto every voul his words are placed to secure his finances and seat in congress.