So now there's no reason to keep the toy a mystery?

Just kidding.

"opponents of the shift decried what they saw as straying from clear Scriptural direction"

They did it, of course, while sporting a fresh haircut, wearing poly-cotton shirts, and nibbling on a shrimp cocktail.

"nibbling"

You're a funny man, danforth.

Lutherans to allow sexually active gays as clergy

hahahahahahahahahahahaha cough cough.... hahahahahahahahahahaha.... Brilliant!

Carry on!

Some will be upset with this decision.

Tell me of one minister who is sinless.

We all sin.

Some will then say, we are to repent in order to be forgiven.

Tell me one minister who hasn't repeated a sin they have previously committed.

There....played the devils advocate!

Just for clarity's sake, there are at least five 'Lutheran' denominations and ELCA has long been the most liberal.

It's no different than the Presbyterian Church fracturing into different denominations, nor the coming schizm in the United Methodist Church.

My friends in the more conservative branches of the Lutheran Church (Missouri-Synod and Wisconsin-Synod) say they are already getting defectors from ELCA over this issue.
----------
The three things you learn in heaven:

Q: Which wins, the irresistible force or the immovable object?
A: The irresistible force.

Q: Is wrestling real?
A: Yes

Q:What is God's favorite religion?
A: Lutheran

(This is an old Lutheran joke)

A local Universalist-Unitarian Church has a Minister, who is "trangendered, is a woman who had her body mutilated and took hormones so that she now outwardly appears to be a chubby ugly man. (In her prime - before surgical and glandular mutilation - she may have appeared to be a chubby ugly woman.)

Anyway, the church advertises it self as a haven for LGBT individuals and has a congregation that is different. I don't know how many members it has who do not suffer from some distress regarding their misdirected sexuality.

It doesn't seem like a place to bring your kids, who might then perceive what is a sort of freak show as mormality.

This move was to protect the alter boys.

Oohrah:

Yep!

I am not saying I agree or disagree with the Lutheran decision, but really Oohrah, show me Scripture that says being gay is worse than lying, stealing, adultery!

I belonged to an ELC church at one time. Waaaaay to liberal for me.

Tell me of one minister who is sinless.

We all sin.

Tell me one minister who hasn't repeated a sin they have previously committed.

There....played the devils advocate!

#5 | Posted by Lisa

You're obviously confused! No one is saying minsters are to be sinless, but they should recognize sin as sin and renounce it.

But Lisa likes to say such things because she doesn't want to offend or be rejected by the debauched ones here on DR. So she lets her insecurity and her need to be accepted by the debauched ones come between her and a biblical understanding of sin. Instead of calling out sin, Lisa comes to the defense of the debauched ones. Cuz we wouldn't want to offend anyone, now would we Lisa?

What would you think if the church ordained professing serial adulterers Lisa? That's right, "Come on in, and let's celebrate our diversity. Won't you become our minister? We have many married women in our congregation who could probably be persuaded to let you into their marriages and express yourself! Here at the 1st Church of Debauchery we affirm everyones form of sexual expression. That's right, we don't get hung up on sin. We just love everybody!"

In case you haven't figured it out airhead, homosexuality is not regarded as sin by the debauched ones on this board. Instead it is celebrated and affirmed as a good gift of God...if God happens to be acknowledged at all. And you and your stupid post simply enables them!

br />

Hello Theone!

First of all, I am not anyones judge, we have but one. I choose not to "offend" one because of Mat 7:1-5.

You have no idea who is or isn't an adulterer. You have no idea who commits what sins.

That is the point. There is no one but ONE that is sinnless.

I don't sit in judgement, if you feel comfortable playing God...knock yourself out and do it.

That's not my place.

But if you want my sincere opinion....anyone who does not repent is not truly saved.

But I'm not the one to shove that down their throat.

Happy?

Lutherans are like Catholics without the guilt.

Guess that comment is proven correct.

Homosexuality is celebrated as an affirmed. Good gift of God???

WHAT???

I assume you have Scripture to support that claim, right??

I'd like to see that, Please.

Love,

Airhead

Murph:

That's true.

I belong to a Christian BIble Church. We go strictly from the Bible, with Scripture interpreting Scripture so there is no false interpretation.

Sounds like they brainwash the parishioners.

Homosexuality is celebrated as an affirmed. Good gift of God???

WHAT???

I assume you have Scripture to support that claim, right??

I'd like to see that, Please.

Love,

Airhead

#14 | Posted by Lisa

Obviously the point went over your head!

Should a practicing homosexual be ordained as a minister Lisa? If he/she behaves in this way, refusing to acknowledge it as sin, shall he/she be ordained by the Church regardless?

Answering with, "All ministers sin" is a cop out and does not answer the question. The point is the candidate for ministry does not acknowledge the behavior as sin, but instead embraces it as part of his/her person.

So, saying, "I won't be the judge...that's for God to decide" is also a cop out. I doubt seriously you would say the same if the candidate was a pedophile? Yet when it comes to homosexuality, you and your ilk want to embrace it and then dodge the question of its sinfulness with, "Judge not lest you be judged!"

Again, a cop out...and a cowardly one at that.

So it really isn't a church anymore. Interesting.

Here's another Theone:

Rom 14:9-13

And BTW...we are SUPPOSE to love one another!

hahahahahahahahahahahaha cough cough.... hahahahahahahahahahaha.... Brilliant!

Carry on!

#4 | Posted by Tosser

FLAG: Homophobic & divisive

Be Well.

I belong to a Christian BIble Church. We go strictly from the Bible, with Scripture interpreting Scripture so there is no false interpretation.

Crap! I used to deal with born again Christians several times a week and still pay attention now and then and they have a different interpretation of every verse depending on the circumstances and their agenda.

Not that there's anything wrong with being a Christian as long as you don't wear it on your sleeve. Well kinda nothing wrong - I'd trust a Jew before I'd trust a Christian though. No I'm not and never have been a Jew but I'm half way there(wink, wink)

hahahahahahahahahahahaha cough cough.... hahahahahahahahahahaha.... Brilliant!

Carry on!

#4 | Posted by Tosser

FLAG: Homophobic & divisive

#20 | Posted by skip_wellington at 2009-08-22 11:06 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose) Boohoo boohoo

Here's another Theone:

Rom 14:9-13

And BTW...we are SUPPOSE to love one another!

#19 | Posted by Lisa

And here's one for you Lisa: 1 Corinthians 5:12-13, and you might want to read the story which comes before it in order to see the nasty sexual behavior that Paul is being so judgmental and unloving over.

And BTW...we are SUPPOSE to love one another!

#19 | Posted by Lisa

Yet you hate me. I guess you are a hypocrite.

Theone:

Do you understand what repentance is???

Do you understand that if one intentionally continues the sin, they are truly not saved?

Have I not stated that I once belonged to an ELC church but it was way to liberal???

Do you need a brick wall to fall on your head before you realize what I mean????

However, I will NOT stoop to your judgemental ways and condemn anyone when I myself am not pure of sin.

Love the sinner hate the sin.

You don't like it?

Oh well.

Christ went to the sinners.

You have no idea what I do in my life to reach out to people.

Coward?? LOL

I am well familiar with those versus, Theone.

If you read 1 Cor 6:9-10, it says "neither fornicators, nor idolitors, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God"

Therfore, what sins are worse than homosexuality???

NONE but one and it isn't any of those.

However, I will NOT stoop to your judgemental ways and condemn anyone when I myself am not pure of sin.

Love the sinner hate the sin.

You don't like it?

Oh well.

Christ went to the sinners.

You have no idea what I do in my life to reach out to people.

Coward?? LOL

#25 | Posted by Lisa

...and Paul called on the Corinthian church to judge and expel the man engaged in debauchery.

So if we're not supposed to judge those in the church, then what do you do with Paul's instruction 1 Cor 5?

Yes, Christ went to sinners...accepted them where they were in life...and told them to go and sin no more.

But because we can't do that, and continue to sin, well then let's just accept the sin and allow the behavior...even ordain it to ministry....cuz we're nice Christians and we don't want to call anyone to account and hold them responsible. That's not very nice and Jesus wants us to be nice.

I puke at your chickified Christianity. You're the perfect example of why women should not be leaders in the church.

Focus on one verse if you wish. I choose to take the Bible in it's entirity.

You choose to also ignore that I believe the ELC is too liberal.

Men are to be leaders of not only the Church but also to be the head of their households. Women are the hearts of both.
We each have our roles.

Again Theone....sit on your throne of judgement.

It's not Christianity you spread, it's hatred of gays.

Why not so angry towards liars? How about adulteres? You do know that even looking at a woman lustfully is considered adultery don't you? How about Coveters?

Find me one minister who is free from any sin.

Do you understand that a sin is a sin is a sin in the eyes of God, except one???

I puke at your chickified Christianity. You're the perfect example of why women should not be leaders in the church.

#27 | Posted by TheOneBS

I puke at your cowardice. You are not a real man.

I puke at your cowardice. You are not a real man.

#29 | Posted by jackass

Are you defending Christianity, Lisa or both?

Whichever it is it definitely belongs in Ripley's Believe It Or Not.

One more thing before I head out for the evening, Theone:

You "PUKE" at my Christianity?

You display hatred, resort to insulting a fellow "sister" in Christ.

We are instructed to pray for one another, not insult. We are to pray for those we consider our enemy, also.

Instead of your actions, you might want to replace them with that!

Have a pleasant evening.

Nite

Lisa, I hate to say this, but you do realize you sound more like Niceville lately, then Nicey ever did?

As I remember it, you used to get pissed because he talked about 'god' constantly.

I would talk about god all the time too, but I don't want to piss her off.

It's not Christianity you spread, it's hatred of gays.

Why not so angry towards liars? How about adulteres? You do know that even looking at a woman lustfully is considered adultery don't you? How about Coveters?

#28 | Posted by Lisa

Again, you refuse to see it.

Why am I not so angry towards liars? Well, I probably would be if liars suddenly began professing that lying isn't a sin, and the church decided it was going embrace lying, no longer calling it sin. And if clergy-to-be decided that lying was ok and part of who they are as God's good creation, and not to be condemned, but instead embraced. Yep, then I'd be angry.

And if the church decided it was now going to ordain self-affirmed practicing adulterers because adultery is simply just one form of the rich diversity of expression in human sexuality, then yes I'd be angry.

And when the church begins to embrace homosexuality, no longer calling it sin...even ordaining it, cuz this is how God made people, then yes I get angry.

But the Lisa's of the world just don't see what's happening around them. Indeed they lead the church further into darkness with their hairbrained interpretations of "judge not lest you be judged." They say "love the sinner, hate the sin," but really they're embracing the sin when they refuse to call it out! Wouldn't want to sound judgmental now. It's better to allow evil to purcolate into the church than to sound judgmental.

PUKE

Rex:

What bothered me about Nicey is NOT that he talked about God.

What bothered me was that he didn't walk his talk.

So many non believers have a right to be so critical of self proclaimed Christians because they do just that.

If you recall, I consistantly told Nicey that he hinders his cause, not help it!

See the difference?

I hear ya.

First of all, I am not anyones judge, we have but one. I choose not to "offend" one because of Mat 7:1-5.

I don't sit in judgement, if you feel comfortable playing God...knock yourself out and do it.

#12 | Posted by Lisa at 2009-08-22 10:46 PM | Reply | Flag:
-------

Matt. 7:1 -- "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
-------

This a frequently misunderstood passage, and the fact is that you judge people all the time, Lisa.

-Does this salesman get a commission I'm not aware of?
-Did the waiter get me a fresh drink, or just stick his finger in the same one to get out the bug?
-Is this person telling the truth?

you makes judgments all day.

The verse you cite does not say "NEVER JUDGE ANYBODY!"

It says to judge others with the same compassion and discernment that you want to be judged

Ummmm....I read the article prior to posting. Nowhere did it say that homosexuality was no longer a sin.

This just keeps going over your head doesn't it? Your hatred of gays prevents you from understanding that their sin is no different from any other minister's.

If you belong to a church where the minister states he is not a sinner, then I suggest going to a different church!!

He's proven to be a liar.

Rex I am surprised you did not like Dukes. I ate at the one in Tacoma and loved it.

"It says to judge others with the same compassion and discernment that you want to be judged"

Let us know when you want others to vote on whether you should be considered a second-class citizen.

Do you understand that a sin is a sin is a sin in the eyes of God, except one???

#28 | Posted by Lisa at 2009-08-22 11:43 PM | Reply | Flag:

Lisa is correct that there is no such thing as a 'worse' sin, but that's also not the point here.

Lutheran denominations also have rules against practicing alcoholics, practicing drug abusers, practicing adulterers, etc.

The definitive word being "practicing." These are not sins of thought but sins of behavior.

The Church accepts that its leaders are also fallible humans, and they can be restored to their positions if they repent their chronic sins and promise to cease the behavior.

The difference with ELCA today is that this sin of behavior is being openly committed.

I find myself in an odd position--defending Lisa. Theone, you are an ass. While I may fervently disagree with Lisa's beliefs, I respect her devotion to them and to degrade her beliefs because of her gender is just proof that you have a tiny prick.

As to your comment about women not being leaders in the church, I laugh. The reason women have long been kept out of any role in the Christian clergy other than nuns--who are basically slaves--it is just the long standing Christian effort to keep women in their place. One more reason I think your god is an ass. He doesn't recognize his sisters. probably because they were mean to him when he was little...lol.

That's the one I ate at JA, the chicken slider was covered in goopy cheese.

I should have got the chowder and prawns.

Vernon:

LOL

You claim to know that I have thought or said those things???

That cracks me up you would think that.

Vernon, we are speaking of spirituality and sin. I do not judge what is in ones heart regarding those matters.

Earthly actions such as the examples you gave, are far different than hating one for a sin and excluding the multitude of other sins that people like Theone like to focus on.

To think that ones minister is sinless or to think their ministers sin is less offensive to God, and therefore they have a right to preach to a congregation is ludecrious.

Now, I'm really heading to bed...church comes early.

Have a pleasant nite, Vernon.

"show me Scripture that says being gay is worse than lying, stealing, adultery!"

Well, according to Leviticus, being gay is about as bad as eating scallops.

Rex, Nog or Randy?

I had the Chowder. It was great.

Let us know when you want others to vote on whether you should be considered a second-class citizen.

#39 | Posted by Danforth at 2009-08-23 12:18 AM | Reply | Flag:

As a Christian and an American, I believe all citizens are entitled to equal protection under the law.

I don't stop anyone from voting, holding a contrary political point of view, going to school and legally avoiding taxes.

I also don't think anybody is entitled to special consideration because of their skin color, intelligence or behavior.

If an alcoholic crashes his car and kills someone, claiming innocence because he's a drunk is no defense. "It's the way God made me, your honor!"

I sin every day and I know everyone else sins every day. But I don't think it is something to celebrate and brag about.

"I also don't think anybody is entitled to special consideration because of their skin color, intelligence or behavior. "

Name one "special consideration" gays want that my wife and I didn't get the moment we said "I do".

#41 | Posted by missesmerelda

Miss Esmerelda, get back to your Wiccan coven. You don't know what the hell you're talking about!

#40

Ughhhhh...I need to get to bed...lol!

Vernon,

It is the absolute point, sweetie!!!

What if your minister does not admit to be in the practice of lying? The practice of adultery?

Does that mean he isn't practicing those things??

What reason is one against gays preaching? Because it's a sin.

Therefore, those who oppose a sinner preaching, should oppose ALL sinners from preaching.

What slays me is that Theone would rather beat me over the head with his hatred of gays, and insult my Christianity, than to see that I left this liberal church.

My entire point was, if you believe that a sinner should not preach...the pulpits would all be empty!!!!!!!!!!!

neither do you dickhead. And, i'm not wiccan. They are almost as narrow minded as the christians.

Well, according to Leviticus, being gay is about as bad as eating scallops.

#44 | Posted by Danforth at 2009-08-23 12:21 AM | Reply | Flag

Danny, Danny, Danny ..... is this a serious statement or are you just playing word games?

Leviticus is in the Old Testament (think Old Contract) and is not in force regarding Christians. It is kept in the Bible for historic and reference purposes.

The Old Testament is very tough, very harsh. It shows the judgment of God is harsh. The whole point of the death and resurrection of Jesus was to permanently satisfy this law.

Matthew 5:17 -- "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

#47 | Posted by vernon

You hit the nail on the head vernon! But she will still obfuscate for fear of sounding judgmental.

I, on the other hand, have no problem with it!

Got to go with Nog.

#44 | POSTED BY DANFORTH
"Well, according to Leviticus, being gay is about as bad as eating scallops.
"
Genius, Danforth. Pure genius.
I'm stealing that one and spreading it.

#27 | POSTED BY THEONEBS
"I puke at your chickified Christianity."

For the record, the line's a lot funnier if you do it with a bad French accent.

Seriously. Try it.

While I may fervently disagree with Lisa's beliefs, ..........

.........The reason women have long been kept out of any role in the Christian clergy other than nuns--who are basically slaves--it is just the long standing Christian effort to keep women in their place.

#41 | Posted by missesmerelda at 2009-08-23 12:18 AM | Reply | Flag:

No, Esmerelda, you do not know what you are talking about. Scriture is clear that men and women have different strengths and different assignments.

They are equally important but different.

"Leviticus is in the Old Testament (think Old Contract) and is not in force regarding Christians."

I hope you remind folks the next time they cite Leviticus as justification. Without that, all that's left is a loon who only "saw" Christ in a hallucination.

Vernon,

You have openly admitted you are a sinner. Does that make you less qualified to preach???

I read nothing about these homosexuals using the pulpit to "celebrate".

They want to preach God's word. Just like every other sinner who does!

#31 | POSTED BY LISA
"You display hatred, resort to insulting a fellow "sister" in Christ.
We are instructed to pray for one another, not insult. We are to pray for those we consider our enemy, also."

Lisa, Lisa, Lisa......I applaud your intentions and your heart, but never ever argue with a drunk or a fool.

"Leviticus is in the Old Testament (think Old Contract) and is not in force regarding Christians."

Huh? Isn't that the same half that contains the Ten Commandments?

Vernon,

We agree that God has seperate roles for men and women.

Now...give me a hug so I can go to bed!!

Name one "special consideration" gays want that my wife and I didn't get the moment we said "I do".

#48 | Posted by Danforth at 2009-08-23 12:26 AM | Reply | Flag:

I'm assuming that you are a man and your wife is a woman.

That means two guys is NOT the same thing.

Sorry!

PS: A rooster and a hen is not the same as two hens, either. Nor is a bull and a cow the same as two bulls.

See a pattern?

God doesn't 'do' anything, if you start saying god does good things, then god is responsible for all bad things.

Therefore god would cease to be good and become evil.

Now...give me a hug so I can go to bed!!

#61 | Posted by Lisa at 2009-08-23 12:36 AM | Reply | Flag:

Good night Lisa!

My wife and I have to go shopping now for the new baby -- he's three weeks out.

It's 12:30 pm Sunday afternoon in Taiwan

I read nothing about these homosexuals using the pulpit to "celebrate".

They want to preach God's word. Just like every other sinner who does!

#58 | Posted by Lisa

The church states that, "As long as they are in committed relationships...."

So, homosexuality is not a sin....as long as they are in committed relationships.

What part of "sin no longer regognized as sin" do you not understand Lisa?

Vernon:

I'm so excited for you!

How is she feeling?

"That means two guys is NOT the same thing. Sorry!"

What a ludicrous reason, the equivalent of "because I said so". Marriage is, at its root, a legal contract conferring superseding rights. Why is one group, over here, allowed to enter into those super-protective agreements, and another group, over there prohibited from doing the same?

"PS: A rooster and a hen is not the same as two hens, either. Nor is a bull and a cow the same as two bulls. See a pattern?"

Hundreds of species have been observed engaging in homosexual behavior. You'll lose that argument every time.

Earlier you posted "I believe all citizens are entitled to equal protection under the law." Obviously, you only want some citizens to have equal protection.

That hardly proves it's not considered a sin, Theone.

I'm in a committed, loving relationship. Does that mean I'm not a sinner?

Isn't that the same half that contains the Ten Commandments?

#60 | Posted by Danforth at 2009-08-23 12:36 AM | Reply | Flag:

Yes, Grasshopper, the Ten Commandments is in the Old Testament.

The Ten Commandments is a highly condensed version of the Mosaic law of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy and Numbers

But it is still the Old Testament.

Christians are not bound by the Mosaic Law. The Law is still divine and authored by God, so a practicing Christian also will not knowingly violate the Law.

The difference is that Christians have complete forgiveness. They sin and you do not cut off their hand (or whatever)

There is a big difference between religion and spirituality.

Oraganized religion is set up as a control mechanism, spirituality is belief in a power higher then self without preconditons.

How is she feeling?

#66 | Posted by Lisa at 2009-08-23 12:41 AM | Reply | Flag:

She's a very calm person. Very even keel. Just the opposite of me.

But she's excited. Not any anxiety that I can discern. Her biggest concern now is spending three days in a Taiwan hospital, eating Taiwan food.

Trust me, Chinese food is much better in the U.S. than it is in China

"The Ten Commandments is a highly condensed version of the Mosaic law of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy and Numbers. But it is still the Old Testament."

So they are "not in force regarding Christians", or do you get to pick and choose depending on the point you're trying to make?

And I'm still waiting for a list of rights gays want that my wife and I don't already have.

"Trust me, Chinese food is much better in the U.S. than it is in China"

Well, at least you can eat outside and dogs won't come up and bother you.

That's great Vernon!

Let her know she's in my prayers!

"The difference is that Christians have complete forgiveness. "

And what of those who died B.C?

#69 | Posted by Lisa

The point is that they are making exceptions for a behavior.

If the church stated that alcoholic ministers could drink themselves into a stupor, as long as they committed to turning in their car keys before doing so, would this be appropriate?

I guess so, cuz alcoholism is no different than any other sin. So let's make room for it, and offer contexts where the sin can be performed. Just as long as we acknowledge that it's sin, we can go ahead and do this.

PUKE

Christians beleive that if you don't see Jesus Christ as your one true savior, you are going to hell.

Even if you have never heard of Jesus Christ.

Doesn't sound very forgiving to me.

Oraganized religion is set up as a control mechanism, spirituality is belief in a power higher then self without preconditons.

#72 | Posted by r_zeitgeist at 2009-08-23 12:46 AM | Reply | Flag:

This is, of course, something you overheard 20 years ago. You thought it sounded insightful so you have uncritically repeated it every since.

In fact, any time you have more than one person in the room, it requires 'organization' and this includes religion. Think of it as division of labor.

In Acts 5 the apostles were doing everything, and finally sat down in Acts 6 and ironed out a plan:

Acts 6:2 -- So the Twelve gathered all the disciples together and said, "It would not be right for us to neglect the ministry of the word of God in order to wait on tables.

Zombie's latent desires are obviously getting the better of him. All these animal pictures have no doubt gotten him hot and bothered. Maybe he should go back to kissing his mirror while watching Indian condom adds, and chimpanzee sex?

Theone:

Do they not make exceptions for liars? Adulterers? Coveters? How about murderes? You do realize that according to Scripture if you hate someone you are considered a murderer, don't you??

If "exceptions" as you call them weren't made for sins....noone would be preaching because we are all sinners!!!!!
All these exceptions are made for every other sin....but your fight is against gays.

Why not just admit you hate gays and call it a night?!

Christians beleive that if you don't see Jesus Christ as your one true savior, you are going to hell.

Even if you have never heard of Jesus Christ.

#80 | Posted by r_zeitgeist at 2009-08-23 12:55 AM | Reply | Flag:

Wrong-O

Romans 7 teaches that ignorance of the Law is considered as innocence. Some kid in Tibet who never heard the Gospel and then died will not go to hell.

You, on the other hand, have heard it and will be judged accordingly.

#79

HA!

One of the priests at the catholic church I went to as a kid was an alcoholic.

He's a sinner.

Next.

"It would not be right for us to neglect the ministry of the word of God in order to wait on tables."

And that's why folks formerly in the food service industry are forbidden to preach.

If "exceptions" as you call them weren't made for sins....noone would be preaching because we are all sinners!!!!!
#83 | Posted by Lisa

Lisa, then what exceptions should the church make for candidates to ministry who are alcoholic?

Should the church provide them locked rooms where they can practice their behavior? As long as they commit themselves to these rooms, they can go ahead and drink?

Come on now, answer the question.

Vernon, help me out, what the fuck are you talking about?

Did I know you '20 years ago'?

I've studied comparative religion since I was a child, I know the genesis of every oragnized religion since before recorded history.

I know the interconnectivity, when they were written, and how each has impacted the other.

I know what religions are in every area on earth, how long they have existed, and how they are worshiped.

I have ten boxes of books on religion and philosophy, all of which I have read twice.

If you would like a class someday, ask me nicely and I might oblige.

We go strictly from the Bible, with Scripture interpreting Scripture so there is no false interpretation

False is a subjective term. Your interpretation is YOUR interpretation.

That's the problem with so many "Christians"- they swear they've got it right while everyone is wrong.

Indeed they lead the church further into darkness

I'm pretty sure they're already there without anyone's help.

"Should the church provide them locked rooms where they can practice their behavior?"

They do for Onanists.

As long as they commit themselves to these rooms, they can go ahead and drink?

How about as long as their drinking doesn't interfere with their work, no one should fucking care whether they do it or not.

Why do I get the feeling that theonebs is also for government staying out of our lives?

False is a subjective term. Your interpretation is YOUR interpretation.

That's the problem with so many "Christians"- they swear they've got it right while everyone is wrong.

#89 | Posted by jpw

You think this is true only with Christians?

STOOGE

And what of those who died B.C?

#78 | Posted by Danforth at 2009-08-23 12:52 AM | Reply | Flag:

Salvation through Christ as not available until the Day of Pentecost, so anyone who died before that is judged by the Law.

Why is that so hard for you to understand?

We pass new laws all the time that supercede old laws. This is the same thing.

If you are trying to reconcile the Old Testament with the New Testament, this is the only way you can. All of these contradictions you perceive are because you don't understand the context.

And I will anticipate your next question: Without the Gospel, God looks at the heart of the individual. That applied to people before Jesus, and it applies to people today who never hear the Gospel.

WOW Theone, that is quite the stretch you have in that post!!

Nowhere does it state they would get a room to have sex with their partners in church.

Your fear and hatred of gays is astounding!!

Why aren't you admitting you hate them so much?? You aren't afraid to "offend" them, are you??

This why I don't like talking religion, (as opposed to spirituality) there is always some smartass quoting scripture and thinking they know 'what god meant'.

What a bunch of arrogant horseshit.

Vernon,

I'm still waiting for your answers to #75.

You think this is true only with Christians?

STOOGE

No, but since that's the topic of this thread...

JPW:

When you use your Bible correctly, it interprets itself. No doubt about it!

No man made interpretations!

Just God's word!

Maybe he should go back to kissing his mirror while watching Indian condom adds, and chimpanzee sex?

Whatever gets your member standing at attention, sweetheart...

When you use your Bible correctly, it interprets itself. No doubt about it!

No man made interpretations!

Everything has man made conclusions.

I guarantee you there are other Christians somewhere, "using their Bible correctly," who have completely different views and conclusions than you do.

There's nothing wrong with this is the slightest and I mean no offense to you, it's dipshits like theone who derive their righteousness from THEIR interpretation while simultaneously demeaning others' that piss me off.

Nowhere does it state they would get a room to have sex with their partners in church.

Your fear and hatred of gays is astounding!!

Why aren't you admitting you hate them so much?? You aren't afraid to "offend" them, are you??

#94 | Posted by Lisa

You're dodging the question Lisa...and doing so like a typical Lib who uses the "racist" charge. Don't deal with the question, just label your opponent.

The ELCA allows for homosexual clergy...and allows them to practice what you, in a previous post, recognized as sin. The ELCA states that as long as homosexuals are in a committed relationship they can go on practicing their behavior.

If this isn't the church making exception for sinful behavior then what is?

You also mentioned alcoholism as being sinful. Does the church make exception for this sin too...by making special provision for the person to engage in his/her alcoholic behavior in certain contexts?

I think you see the problems, but you don't want to acknowledge them. So just tell theo he hates gays....maybe that will extricate you from your airheadedness?br />

OK...I REALLY am heading to bed now!

Sleep well eveyone!

Ciao!

Here's a band you should check out theone.

I've studied comparative religion since I was a child, I know the genesis of every oragnized religion since before recorded history.

I know the interconnectivity, when they were written, and how each has impacted the other.

I know what religions are in every area on earth, how long they have existed, and how they are worshiped.

I have ten boxes of books on religion and philosophy, all of which I have read twice.

If you would like a class someday, ask me nicely and I might oblige.

#88 | Posted by r_zeitgeist at 2009-08-23 01:03 AM | Reply | Flag:

Hmmm..... I've studied, I know, I know, I have ....

I read a book TWO times!

Blah, blah, blah. So you have a lot of knowledge but not a lick of wisdom. Who cares?

It's easy to sit in your wingback and stroke your puffed up ego about how you know a lot of stuff. Stroke, stroke, stroke. And feel smug and superior to all those 'stupid' Christians.

BTW, it doesn't change the fact that you heard (or read) that line and have been repeating it ever since to make yourself sound 'deep.'

In fact, you've posted it so many times that it's no different from Danni automatically blaming Reagan. All noise.

1 Corinthians 13:4 -- Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.

When you use your Bible correctly, it interprets itself. No doubt about it!

How so? How does a believer handle open ended/contradictory instructions (meant to be taken literally) and anecdote/imagery (meant to be taken metaphorically)?

Is there a methodical, objective process to it, or is it more subjective and intuitive.

"If this isn't the church making exception for sinful behavior then what is? "

What exception? Yes, or no, does the church allow Onanists to preach?

Vernon,

Are you purposely avoiding answering #75, or do you have no answer?

Aw man, lisa heads to bed right when I wanted to ask her a question... o well, maybe later. Goodnight.

I'm still waiting for your answers to #75.

#96 | Posted by Danforth at 2009-08-23 01:10 AM | Reply | Flag:

I already answered you in 62.

A man and a woman can get married. A man and a man cannot, unless they are expecting special treatment

OMGosh....it is YOU who is avoiding the questions!!!

As far as labling, let's see.....you have called me an airhead, a chicken Christian and now a typical lib!

I called you on your true feelings, your real reason for objecting which is plain to see by all.

I have quoted Scripture which you ignore, I have stated why I left the ELC which you ignore because that gives you permission to call me a lib, you have not answered one single question I have asked of you...you dance around every one of them, tring to put me in the hot seat.

You resort to the name calling because you have nothing.

You need to examine yourself, Theone because if you think you speak of Christianity, you are not looking in the right mirror!

Christianity teachings have been lost on you.

You are in my prayers.

Goodnight!

And feel smug and superior to all those 'stupid' Christians.

As opposed to you who acts smug and superior to 'stupid' everyone?

"A man and a man cannot, unless they are expecting special treatment"

WTF? They're asking for the same "treatment" my wife and I get. Nothing "special" about it. You lose, again.

And the other part: are the Ten Commandments still in effect? If so, why do you get to pick and choose which parts of the OT are in effect and which aren't?

#108

Go ahead Zomie

What exception? Yes, or no, does the church allow Onanists to preach?

#106 | Posted by Danforth

Given that preachers do not commit to keeping Levirate oaths to their dead brother's wives, I don't think the church really chimes in on this one.

But you really didn't understand the story of Onan anyway, so your idiotic question shows you to be the fool that you are!

Don't deal with the question, just label your opponent.

Your "questions," BS, are irrational and not worth addressing. Engaging you is about as productive as trying to convince a schizophrenic that his friends really haven't been replaced with imposters. Pose an intelligent question from a rational viewpoint and you will be met with a similar response. Pose a question based on nothing more than your particularly vile brand of superstition, and expect to be ridiculed.

You are labeled as a hater of homosexuals because... big surprise here... you hate them. If you don't want to carry that label, perhaps you shouldn't profess your hatred at every opportunity.

Lisa, I did in the post before I said goodnight. It's cool, it would probably turn into a long conversation and is best saved for another time. I'm about to crash too.

Is there a methodical, objective process to it, or is it more subjective and intuitive.

#105 | Posted by ZombieHunter at 2009-08-23 01:19 AM | Reply |

Yes, it is very methodical. One reason Bible study is to be done in groups is as a check-and-balance, to prevent people from going off into private interpretation

"Given that preachers do not commit to keeping Levirate oaths to their dead brother's wives, I don't think the church really chimes in on this one."

Too funny. The dumbshit doesn't even know what an Onanist is.

#110 | Posted by Lisa

And now the histrionics! Yep, it's a woman!

Too funny. The dumbshit doesn't even know what an Onanist is.

#118 | Posted by Danforth

au contraire, it is you that does not know the real meaning. You think it's about jacking off...cuz that's your specialty. But you really don't know what Onan's sin was, do you?

Zombie...you're right. I just saw that post. Can I answer it tomorrow since it will be lenghty? I'm fighting to keep awake, have to be up in 5 hours and the rythemic snoring from my hubby is inviting!!

Lol

I probably won't be back till tomorrow evening...church till noon, family bike ride, youth group for the little guy....but I promise I have an answer for you, OK?

WTF? They're asking for the same "treatment" my wife and I get. Nothing "special" about it. You lose, again.

And the other part: are the Ten Commandments still in effect? If so, why do you get to pick and choose which parts of the OT are in effect and which aren't?

#112 | Posted by Danforth at 2009-08-23 01:28 AM | Reply | Flag:

They are asking for 'the same treatment" but for a different configuration. You lose.

Now, I'm not going to entertain this same, old, tired gay marriage game any more. A man cannot marry another man. What part of that do you not understand?

They can buy a house together, they can bung and blow to their hearts content, they can even disagree on the drapes. But, they cannot marry.

I already addressed your confusion about the Ten Commandments. Just because you don't like the answer does not mean you can demand a Choice B.

The Old Testament is not in effect for Christians. The Mosaic Law is still divine, but its main purpose today is to understand that God's standards are absolute.

Yes, it is very methodical. One reason Bible study is to be done in groups is as a check-and-balance, to prevent people from going off into private interpretation

I can see how that would work in some cases, but in the end I don't see how consensus defines the most accurate interpretation. Until the 50's there was a consensus that humans had 48 chromosomes. I think I could find various bible study groups that would interpret certain passages very differently.

It just seems to me that you're trying to interpret something that is inherently subjective, and no matter how deliberately methodical you are, there's no way to test the accuracy of your interpretation. It's like trying to interpret finnegan's wake. I don't think you'll find two people that will have the same interpretation (finding people who have slogged through that... thing is hard enough).

The dumbshit doesn't even know what an Onanist is.

I imagine he is going to go "read" some onanist scripture before bed nevertheless.

Zombie...you're right. I just saw that post. Can I answer it tomorrow since it will be lenghty? I'm fighting to keep awake, have to be up in 5 hours and the rythemic snoring from my hubby is inviting!!

Lol

I probably won't be back till tomorrow evening...church till noon, family bike ride, youth group for the little guy....but I promise I have an answer for you, OK?

I probably won't be back till tomorrow evening...church till noon, family bike ride, youth group for the little guy....but I promise I have an answer for you, OK?

Cool. Take care.

"They are asking for 'the same treatment" but for a different configuration."

They're asking for the same legal protection as the majority gets, the exact same configuration. You still haven't come up with one right they want that my wife and I don't already get.

"A man cannot marry another man."

You're full of shit. It's already happening in several states, and will in several more by the year's end. Your proclamation is nothing but hot air.

But you really don't know what Onan's sin was, do you?

Not agreeing with the Exalted and Mighty Heirophant, TheOneBS!

"I imagine he is going to go "read" some onanist scripture before bed nevertheless."

Ooooh! My favorite is Bible hero Lot getting drunk and incestuously impregnating his two daughters!

Lisa is an evangelical nutbag now.

I imagine he is going to go "read" some onanist scripture before bed nevertheless.

#124 | Posted by ZombieHunter

And I'm sure you and Dannyboy will read Onan bedtime stories to each other. You both enjoy playing straight on the DR board, but your youtube entertainment and militant defense of the subject matter shows you both to be gayer than a handbag full of rainbows.

"and militant defense of the subject matter"

Too funny. The idiot never saw a white guy in a civil rights march, either.

You never answered, Nebs: Do churches allow Onanists to preach? Do they "provide them locked rooms where they can practice their behavior?"

Danforth, does your wife (if you really have one) know of your latent homosexual tendencies, and the vigor you use to defend homosexuality on this board?

You still haven't come up with one right they want that my wife and I don't already get.

You and your wife have a marriage.

You enjoy the civil privileges that come with such an arrangement.

Pretending some odd, sexual perversion entitles you to the same aforementioned privileges is absurd.

Danforth, does your wife (if you really have one) know of your latent homosexual tendencies, and the vigor you use to defend homosexuality on this board?

*Bingo*

"Pretending some odd, sexual perversion entitles you to the same aforementioned privileges is absurd. "

What's absurd is murderers, thieves, and adulterers get full rights, but one subset of America is denied the same legal protections and superseding rights everyone else can access because of self-loathing closet cases.

"*Bingo*"

Too funny, when a guy who fucks his cows has to pretend there is no other possible reason someone would believe in equality.

I'll lay it out for you Vernon,

You aren't talking the language of spirituality, you aren't even talking religion, you have reduced faith to reading the stats on the back of a baseball card.

Firing off one liners from the bible and acting like you know what 'god meant' isn't religion, it's not spirituality, it's not faith, it's hubris, it's arrogance.

You see, I have actually considered god and what god means, I have looked at the history of religion and understand the evolution from animism to polytheism, to monotheism, to deist.

For me it is a life long journey of understanding, not some rigid lockstep of regurgitated talking points.

You see, the difference you between you and I is I was the kid in Sunday school challenging, questioning, learning, and you were the kid nodding his head.

Wisdom isn't reciting bible verses, that's arrogance, wisdom is continuing to evolve spiritually without dogma .

Think about it.

Too funny, when a guy who fucks his cows has to pretend there is no other possible reason someone would believe in equality.

#137 | Posted by Danforth

Settle down Danny. You've been outed. No need to accuse others of deviancy just cuz you're up to your neck in it.

Danforth, does your wife (if you really have one) know of your latent homosexual tendencies, and the vigor you use to defend homosexuality on this board?

Nothing shows the hollowness of your position than a retort that basically says 'Oh yeah, well you're gay!'

What's absurd is murderers, thieves, and adulterers get full rights

Not really.

but one subset of America is denied the same legal protections and superseding rights

A.) What "legal protections" and "superseding rights" would those be?

B.) What "subset" is being denied them?

wisdom is continuing to evolve spiritually without dogma .

Think about it.

#138 | Posted by r_zeitgeist

Where's my barf bag? Did you get that off your Deepak Chopra cereal box?

Fuck, I agree with Rex about something.

Shit, say something crazy I can disagree with.

"What "legal protections" and "superseding rights" would those be?"

Study the legal aspects of the marriage contract and get back to us. I have neither the time or the inclination to educate you about subjects like tort benefits, inheritance, unlimited marital gifts, spousal privilege, or pension rights, to name a few.

or = nor

when a guy who fucks his cows

There ya go, Copernicus...

Now, let's do a critical thinking exercise.

Given my particular affinity for fucking livestock, what "legal protections" and "superseding rights" are being denied to me as we speak?

500 words or less.

Typed and double spaced.

Go....

Study the legal aspects of the marriage contract and get back to us

Evidently, this is and extremely important and personal thing for you.

That's why I asked you.

Marriage contract has to do with the institution of marriage. The institution of marriage has to do with a man and a woman uniting in the marital bond. It has been this way for thousands of years.

Legal matters that stem from the marriage contract..such things as inheritance, pension rights for the spouse...etc., are determined within the bounds of that contract.

A man marrying another man is NOT a marriage. You may not like the definition of marriage, but that's too bad! Go build your own city in another land, call it Sodom, and have at it there. But shut the hell up and keep your trash out of our yard if you're gonna live in our neighborhood.

"Given my particular affinity for fucking livestock..."

Did you catch that, Nebs?

"Evidently, this is and extremely important and personal thing for you."

Evidently, it's a subject on which you're profoundly ignorant. Educate yourself, and let me know when you're conversant on those five topics, for a start. Until then, you're not worth the bandwidth.

Evidently, it's a subject on which you're profoundly ignorant

Oh, I'm quite well versed on what is and isn't a marriage.

"The institution of marriage has to do with a man and a woman uniting in the marital bond."

Hot air. By year's end, 7 states will recognize gay marriage.

"A man marrying another man is NOT a marriage."

Keep saying it, and by year's end, 7 states will recognize gay marriage.

"But shut the hell up and keep your trash out of our yard if you're gonna live in our neighborhood."

You're a hoot. And a desperate one at that.

"Certainly, its not a "marriage""

Another idiot who never heard of Massachusetts, Iowa, or Connecticut.

Happy extinction, dinosaur.

BTW, my beliefs are panthistic and follow no structured rule system outside of the laws of thermodynmamics.

But shut the hell up and keep your trash out of our yard if you're gonna live in our neighborhood.

Problem is it's not YOUR neighborhood, dipshit.

Danforth, does your wife (if you really have one) know of your latent homosexual tendencies, and the vigor you use to defend homosexuality on this board?

Come on, Danielle...

Tax time...

Kinda late at the office....

That cute little Colorado boy that scored a gig in the local Rent production and moved to the big city.....

"What can I write off, Dan?---rent in this town is killing me!"

Another idiot who never heard of Massachusetts, Iowa, or Connecticut.

Judicial fiat doen't count.

The rest are rotting fucking blue states clinging to the coasts and scartching their heads wondering why the Great Unwashed between them can't just be more like Europe.

doesn't

scratching

"I'm quite well versed on what is and isn't a marriage."

But obviously ignorant of the legal value of superseding rights, especially if you believe they're "thin gruel". Sorry to waste both our time.

#156

I guess, using that "logic", you're a torturer.

"Judicial fiat doen't count."

Of course not. Only your proclamations count.

Bwahahahahaha!

'Nite, idiot.

Ever notice the same people who scream loudest when homo clergy abuse young boys also want gay clergy ordained?
Makes you wonder about their agenda, doesn't it?

Personally I think they should just 'close down'. Religion is either about tradition or it serves no purpose.

This why I don't like talking religion, (as opposed to spirituality) there is always some smartass quoting scripture and thinking they know 'what god meant'.

What a bunch of arrogant horseshit.

#95 | Posted by r_zeitgeist

Ain't it the truth. Someone tells me they are "christian", and I usually find some way to leave the scene, like having garbage to take out, ect...

Let's hope they also admonished god for counseling the murder of homosexuals.

"Ever notice the same people who scream loudest when homo clergy abuse young boys also want gay clergy ordained?
Makes you wonder about their agenda, doesn't it?"

All I can say is what an idiot you are.

"Religion is either about tradition or it serves no purpose."

Apparently it does for those who practice it. It's not for me but I don't judge, I also don't like to be judged.

""Ever notice the same people who scream loudest when homo clergy abuse young boys also want gay clergy ordained?"

How do you know this? Or is it just more hot air extracted from your ass?

"there is always some smartass quoting scripture and thinking they know 'what god meant'."

You have to admit, exhortations to "kill homosexuals" and "non virginal brides" are rather unambiguous.

#137 | Posted by Danforth at 2009-08-23 02:02 AM | Reply | Flag:

I'll lay it out for you Vernon,

You aren't talking the language of spirituality, you aren't even talking religion, you have reduced faith to reading the stats on the back of a baseball card.

Firing off one liners from the bible and acting like you know what 'god meant' isn't religion, it's not spirituality, it's not faith, it's hubris, it's arrogance.

You see, I have actually considered god and what god means, I have looked at the history of religion and understand the evolution from animism to polytheism, to monotheism, to deist.

For me it is a life long journey of understanding, not some rigid lockstep of regurgitated talking points.

You see, the difference you between you and I is I was the kid in Sunday school challenging, questioning, learning, and you were the kid nodding his head.

Wisdom isn't reciting bible verses, that's arrogance, wisdom is continuing to evolve spiritually without dogma .

Think about it.

#138 | Posted by r_zeitgeist at 2009-08-23 02:04 AM | Reply | Flag:

Silly rabbit, kicks are for Trids.

You continue to masturbate your ego about how you are above it all, and enlightened, and oh so very perceptive. You sit in your chair and look down at all the quivering masses of humanity, pronouncing them unworthy of you.

Of course, anybody who is clear in what they believe, and has a basis for it, must be some silly twit who sat in Sunday School and nodded.

None of that for the Great and Powerful Oz!

.... Errr.... The Great Ego ZIT

What a fucking jerk.

I hate to spoil your jerk-off, but many, many others have also worked at understanding faith.Most of the people I know who are solid in their faith have struggled mightily to get there.

They have studied many philosophies and challenged them in a quest for truth.

Your ignorance of the faithful says much about you already. You are just a sniveling, self-righteous little slime. But hey, you DID read a book TWO WHOLE TIMES!!!!!

Shazzzaaaaammmmm!

Yes, I quote Scripture. Makes you squirm, I know. Your angst is not with me. It is with God. And the Scripture I post is God's Word.

It makes you squirm because deep in your egotistical, puffed up heart, there still beats -- ever so faintly -- a desire to surrender all the phoney bullshit.

A desire to embrace real truth, instead of egotistical nonsense.

My favorite line:

"You aren't talking the language of spirituality, "

To you the 'language of spirituality' is an endless spiral of intellectual beating-off. You are terrified that there may be a conclusion, a logical terminus to all your intellectual games.

If that were true then what shall you do?

You can't possibly accept a universal truth. It would be so, oh, bourgious, and unsophisticated.

Even worse, it would require you to make a choice. Make a decision. And your entire identity is invested (not in a quest for truth but) in maintaining an intellectual aura.

You are a phoney.

America: where churches advertise.

Come join our church and we'll wave the admittence fee for the first 30 new converts.

"there is always some smartass quoting scripture and thinking they know 'what god meant'"

Job 32:13 -- Do not say, 'We have found wisdom;
let God refute him, not man.'

Yes, because it is impossible to understand what God means ..... unless we all crawl to the feet of Prof. Zit and beg for enlightenment

"Firing off one liners from the bible and acting like you know what 'god meant' isn't religion, it's not spirituality, it's not faith, it's hubris, it's arrogance."

Claiming that 'Kill X" doesn't mean "kill X" takes a rationalization and apologetics to entirely unheard of levels.

"Wisdom isn't reciting bible verses, that's arrogance, wisdom is continuing to evolve spiritually without dogma ."

I guess that's why a poll published in Nature in the 90's found that only SEVEN percent of leading scientists believed in a personal god...

It is often claimed that because so many humans believe in god, that gives the concept some credibility. In fact since no two people can agree on the meaning of the word, it could be argued that the opposite is true.

So God is OK with eating ass? That is a miracle!

I'm not homophobic, in fact, I think its a good thing that sexually active gays be preaching in pulpit rather than in airport restrooms spreading disease :)

"You need to digest that reality before you're able to contribute to any meaningful discussion on the topic."

Too funny, coming from the guy whose debating style always boils down to a requirement the world change their definitions to meet his cockamamie claims.

Yes, it is very methodical. One reason Bible study is to be done in groups is as a check-and-balance, to prevent people from going off into private interpretation
#117 | POSTED BY VERNON

Because we all know how dangerous it is to form one's own conclusions...you are such a sheep, vernon

A tribute to leftie thought process. I wrote:
"Ever notice the same people who scream loudest when homo clergy abuse young boys also want gay clergy ordained? Makes you wonder about their agenda../"

Now read these astonishing replies, obviously from steel trap minds:

"How do you know this? Or is it just more hot air extracted from your ass?"
Tom W

"All I can say is what an idiot you are."
Danni

I hate to spoil your jerk-off
#172 | Posted by vernon at 2009-08-23 09:24 AM |

"but you haffa move on!" Vermin heard someone saying, a sharp but distant voice as if from the beyond, from somewhere deep in the welcoming tits of the cosmos, perhaps even from the labial netherworld, that exotic far off place in the Andromeda Galaxy he often speculated for he was, indeed, full of it, full of speculation might not just represent but actually be the legendary axis mundi, the very center of it all, the cosmic axis, the all-worlds pillar, the long sought and always elusive sky pillar (or, as the bulbous expat fondly referred to it, the columna cereilium [though, if truth be told which it wasn't often the case in the expat's world] he should have said columna cerului, but his ignorance was his shield, just as when, for example, the kind, blind old monk (who only smiled and shook his head sadly as his fingers continued working the beads of the Rosary after Vermin chortled, "Monk? Monk? Hey, Monkey!"), an ancient friar to be sure who guided him through the Catacombs of San Pancrazio so long ago as Vermin, after determining the monk was really blind by flipping him the bird and waving his genitalia at him in a less than complimentary manner, searched in vain for the Holy Grail or any other loot worth looting.

He had found nothing, of course; had, in fact, found nothing of any or even no value since turning up that filthy dupondius at the bottom of one of the ancient privies behind the Lupanar Brothel -- Pompeii's finest, just two blocks east of the forum at the intersection of Vico del Lupanare and Vico del Balcone Pensile after three days' digging through coprolites encased in volcanic ash; yes, the very same dupondius with the profile of Emperor Vespasian on the obverse and Gawd only knows who or what heathenish (but not at all bad looking, now that he thought about it) critter on the reverse, for which he'd been able to obtain sufficient recompense from the Shylock who operated in the little shop above which were suspended the three balls imagine that! which to Vermin throughout the course of his life so often spelled the difference between survival and a close call; the tiny shop, you know the one, in the rat-infested alley just off Rome's Via della Conciliazione, where that miserable Shylock took the dupondius and, in exchange, tossed the exact amount of lira required to by a three-day-old canoli that tasted of...of...