I would be OK with this if they let atheists teach the course.

It's an elective and it is about the history of the bible, not the bible itself, bOoB.

So being an elective, once again your headline is WRONG! Elective does not mean MUST.

Hope this clears up some confusion in that cloud filled skull of yours. Hope you learn to quit lying, too, but you've proven that is not possible.

FAIL

Are they going to teach anything about other Religious texts?
No? Just the "Christian" Bible?

Buncha jeebus freaks pushin' their claptrap on everyone else.

EPIC FAIL!

Buncha jeebus freaks pushin' their claptrap on everyone else.

HOw do you figure that? The course is an elective. I see you fell for da bOoB's lying headline, too. Not surprising since you two sip from the save vat of kook-aid

History of the bible isn't about the bible.
History of the Unites States isn't about the United States.
History of music isn't about music.
History of .....you get the idea.

Texas schools MUST teach a course on the bible---I wonder if they will tell the students they MUST go to church for homework.

#5 | Posted by Big_League_Chew at 2009-08-17 02:08 AM | Reply | Flag

Making sense is frowned upon---you ain't from around these parts are you stranger.

Texas schools MUST teach a course on the bible

It is an elective, bOoB. Here is the bill in case you are interested in the truth. (laughing by butt off thinking you have any interest in real facts. LOL)

I get that a lot.

Some of the parts of the bill, bOoB:

(1) an elective course on the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) and its impact and an elective course on the New Testament and its impact;

3) understanding of how to present the Bible in an objective, academic manner that neither promotes nor disparages religion, nor is taught from a particular sectarian point of view;

(5) expertise in how to avoid devotional content or proselytizing in the classroom.

Making sense is frowned upon---

That's why da bOoB doesn't do it. He loves being the 'M' in 'S&M'

I wonder if they will tell the students they MUST go to church for homework.

If you read the bill, you'd know the answer to that, bOoB. Why don't you actually read it?

I would be OK with this if they let atheists teach the course.

According to the bill, yes they would. Why don't you read it?

Also from the bill:

(d) A course offered under this section shall follow applicable law and all federal and state guidelines in maintaining religious neutrality and accommodating the diverse religious views, traditions, and perspectives of students in their school district. A course under this section shall not endorse, favor, or promote, or disfavor or show hostility toward, any particular religion or nonreligious faith or religious perspective. Nothing in this statute is intended to violate any provision of the United
States Constitution or federal law, the Texas Constitution or any state law, or any rules or guidelines provided by the United States
Department of Education or the Texas Education Agency.

According to the bill, yes they would. Why don't you read it?

Of course according to the Bill the atheist in question would have to refrain from disparaging the religion which, if many of the atheists on the DR are an indication, would be near impossible to do.

BuffaloBob --

What's the big deal. I took a class called "Major Religions of the World" in college. It covered Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddism and a few others. You were taught the basics of each religion including an introduction to the Bible, the Koran, and other applicable books as each particular religion was being covered in class.

Would you feel the same resentment if Texas high school kids were taught about the Koran or Tipitaka (one of the books used to teach about Buddism)? Or is it the fact the Bible has to do with Christianity? which bothers you?

I am fine with this as long as they teach the great and noble traditions of the Norse Pantheon as well.

Odin the one eyed and hanged God.
Thor the Mighty Bringer of Thunder.
Loki the mischevious, God of many faces.
Valkeries and Valhallah.
and of course everyones favorite party!
Ragnarok!

And of course Scientology!
though that might get a bit pricey when they start doing labs. I mean E-meters are not cheap! Dont even get me started on Auditing!

Why not give the Church of the SubGenius a solid month?

The world's greatest salesman J. R. "Bob" Dobbs is very deep!

Though as highschool students i would imagine May 6 The Feast of St Guinness the Stout would be discussed but not practiced.

As long as they treat all fiction with the same respect and thorough consideration!

I personally have no problem with comparative religion courses. I just feel that they fall short of giving a complete trip around the world of the Divine.

As long as they treat all fiction with the same respect and thorough consideration!

Exactly. Da bOoB maintains quite strongly that religions are fiction. I wonder if he thinks the English literature should stop teaching fiction as well? No more Shakespeare, vonnegut, salinger, Pearl Buck -- right, bOoB?

History of the bible isn't about the bible.
History of the Unites States isn't about the United States.
History of music isn't about music.
History of .....you get the idea.

History of astronomy isn't about astronomy
(the sun doesn't revolve around the earth)
History of medicine isn't about medicine
(bloodletting doesn't cure anything)
History of physics isn't about physics
(larger objects do not fall faster than smaller ones)
History of ... you get the idea

Apparently a lot of people chose not to read Goat's link and call Bob on his bullshit.

There is nothing in this bill that says they must teach this course. It says they must offer this course and if fewer than 15 students sign up for this ELECTIVE then the school is not required to teach it.

From the bill

"(g) If, for a particular semester, fewer than 15 students at
a school district campus register to enroll in a course required by
this section, the district is not required to offer the course at
that campus for that semester."

This happened to me every year I was high school.
I would sign up for the elective Advanced Texas Studies. I was never able to take this class because not enough people signed up for it.

Are they going to teach anything about other Religious texts?
No? Just the "Christian" Bible?
#3 | Posted by frankf55

I see Frank chose not to read the bill before commenting.

From the bill

"(h) This section does not prohibit the board of trustees of
a school district from offering an elective course based on the
books of a religion other than Christianity."

The bill says no one is required to take this class.
If it was a requirement I would be one of the first on here to call foul.

Nice try though bob.

Makes sense if they were to teach a history/literature course about sacred texts of the world. But the Bible? Sounds too much like an end run around existing practices designed to preserve some meaningful degree of church-state separation.

#1

This is a perfect example that illistrates that Bob wants to force his athiest beliefs unto others and yet all we hear on this site is how they don't want Christians to shove our beliefs down anyones throat.

All this bill says is the course has to be offered. It's not a requirement to take this class.

No harm to anyone who doesn't believe.

I'm starting to like TX a little more. : )

...designed to preserve some meaningful degree of church-state separation.

If they ARE preserving it in a "meaningful" way as you seem to suggest... what is your beef with it?

From the article:
"The purpose of a course like this isn't even really to get kids to believe it per say. It is just to appreciate the profound impact that it has had on our history and on our government," said Keeling.

Would some one please, for the love of God, tell me what "profound impact" the Bible had on our government? Nothing in the Bible advocates freedom of speech, freedom of religion, separation of powers, bicameral congress, term limits, right to bear arms, quartering troops...do we need to go on? Again?

Want to teach it as Western history? Anthropology? Mythology?
Fine. Go for it. But "to appreciate the profound impact that it has had on...our government"??? Please.

And to actually require it be taught, elective or not? Please.

Neither democracy nor republic existed when the Old Testament was written or was countless miles away in Athens, and nonetheless was never mentioned. By the time the New Testament was written, the Roman Republic had been the Roman Empire for over a century.

Did the Bible and Christianity have a profound impact on the FOUNDERS of our government? Yes, but not NEARLY to the extent some would have us believe. Thomas Jefferson would get lynched in Texas today for his ideas regarding the Bible.

Did the Bible and Christianity have a profound impact on the FOUNDERS of our government? Yes, but not NEARLY to the extent some would have us believe. Thomas Jefferson would get lynched in Texas today for his ideas regarding the Bible.

And yet government buildings in Washington, DC that have been standing for 150 years or more have Bible passages and/or The Ten Commandments inscribed on them. That being only one of the examples.

Yeah... no evidence that the Bible had any impact.

Comparative religion - fine as an elective.
Singling out the Bible? Stupid and a waste of time. I suppose there's nothing more important in Texas to worry about. Legislating schools must offer a course on the Bible?

Texas schools MUST teach a course on the bible

It is an elective, bOoB. Here is the bill in case you are interested in the truth.

This is just too perfect.

Bob misses it by saying "MUST teach" when the law states "MUST offer"

Goatman misses it by saying "It is an elective" missing the point that the Texas Legislature singled out the Bible and MANDATED that every school must offer he course.

Good news: Oklahoma is still worse.
Bad news?
Texas is doing their damnedest to catch up.

Goatman misses it by saying "It is an elective" missing the point that the Texas Legislature singled out the Bible and MANDATED that every school must offer he course.

I missed nothing.

It is an elective. Nothing is being forced upon anyone. I'm an atheist and I see nothing wrong with it. If it was being cumpulsory, I'd be the first and most vociferous one against it.

Why are you so afraid of someone being given the opportunity to learn the history (not religion) of the bible, yav? Is your fear of religion that great? Fuck -- it's a fictitious fairy tale. Deal with it. Or should we also ban other works of fiction like Tom Sawyer?

(d) A course offered under this section shall follow applicable law and all federal and state guidelines in maintaining religious neutrality and accommodating the diverse religious views, traditions, and perspectives of students in their school district.

I think that's a key part of the provision.

Goatman misses it by saying "It is an elective" missing the point that the Texas Legislature singled out the Bible and MANDATED that every school must offer he course.

So they have to offer the course which only gets taught if enough are interested in it. The same legislation says that any other religions history maybe offered as well.

Sounds like you are just whining because nobody is interested enough to get off their ass and push for a class on other religions' history with their local school system.

Don't like it? Organize a petition to get another religion's history taught.

But no... easier to whine and try to deny other people simply because YOU don't like a class that you or your kids would probably never elect to take in the first place.

Why are you so afraid of someone being given the opportunity to learn the history (not religion) of the bible, yav?

Too funny. I'm not afraid at all.

You have no idea what my opinion on the law is except what I alluded - which you blew off. Let me recap: it's stupid and a waste of time for the Legislature. It's also intrusive and obviously political pandering at the expense of the schools - who must now prepare a course, offer a course and find someone to teach it, even if not enough sign up for it.

As far as what there is to be afraid of, let me look at the context: Texas schools and the text book fiasco, Creationism V Evolution in Science classes. Hm. Maybe you're right. There may be more to this than what first appears.

Glad you helped clear that all up, Goatman.

Have fun, I'm off to work.

It's also intrusive...

To who? Atheists that wouldn't sign up for the class anyway? To Muslims, or Buddhists, or Zoroastrians that wouldn't either? Exactly who is this intrusive to?

...and obviously political pandering at the expense of the schools...

Well considering that politicians serve the needs and desires of their constituents... I think that the people in Texas as a whole should be the ones to decide if this is onerous and too much of a burden.

Oh... I get it... it is intrusive to the whiny Atheist that immediately wets their pants and burst into tears if they see the word "Bible" in print. You know.... like on the class sign-up sheet.

Gotcha. Time to change your Depends there, Yav.

Where in the world did you get your information? I live in Houston. It simply isn't true.

the historicity contained in the bible is priceless - this will be a great experience for anyone who loves history. the ap reader classes here offer a couple of different books from the bible, and the reading of them is strictly voluntary - one of ours, however, found one of the books to be advanced in her younger years and went far out of her age group to read it - mostly for the points.

i'm with most here when i say "faith" should be taught foremost at home - not at school. funny how some athiests are scared poopless of a God they don't believe in!

Atheists ruined God for themselves and they will never rest until they try and ruin God for everybody else. They eternally fail... pardon the pun

We're coming

So being an elective, once again your headline is WRONG! Elective does not mean MUST.

The law says that schools must have information about the Bible in their curriculum. There's nothing wrong about the headline at all.

There is a big difference between must OFFER and most TEACH.

I don't see this as a problem, as long as other mythologies or organized religions are presented as well.

It is an elective. Nothing is being forced upon anyone.

Would people feel the same way if Texas passed a law requiring the Koran to be a part of the curriculum? This law favors a particular religion over others.

Why do they allow headlines to stories here that are blatant lies? I live in Texas and when I read that I was very surprised. Then, come to find out, Texas teachers are not being ordered to teach the Bible as the headline suggests. More whacky bullshit from the biggest BOOB at the DR.

"Would people feel the same way if Texas passed a law requiring the Koran to be a part of the curriculum? This law favors a particular religion over others."

They should add the Satanic Bible from Anton La Vey to the curriculum. Just to be even-handed.

This is what Republican redistricting of voters will do, elect officials that write laws that no one can understand about a subject that belongs in church, not school.

That will help those children compete in the world economy.

And if the these same so-called Christians who write this crap they call law would concentrate their effort on their churches doing their job, they wouldn't have to try to force the schools to do it.

This smacks of the same attitude that expects teachers to be parents to their classes.

"That will help those children compete in the world economy."

Posted by 726 at 2009-08-17 10:52 AM

#39 | Posted by rcade - they teach islamic studies in most, if not all, high school world history classes...one teacher had the audacity to tell one of ours that ala was the exact same God of the bible - don't play like this doesn't happen every single school day of the year in some place or another in the u.s.

Nanc is an excellent example of intellectual FAILURE.

I see that goatman is on the job spreading the truth...

please look up the definition of the word elective before you write a headline on an elective

thank you

"""they teach islamic studies in most, if not all, high school world history classes"""

Really? I find that more than surprising. Then why is christianity not just another chapter in that same history class? Why does it need a special law?

it does have a special law...something about congress shall make no law or something like that....

but then when did libs ever care about the constitution...OH YEAH...when it was bush in the WH..

nevermind

This is stupid and a waste of time...elective or not...part or US history or not doesn't really matter...

...the fact is that is this class creates more problems than it solves the only real purpose is to appease a few mouthy Christians who seem to be unable to teach the bible at home so they need the school to do it for them...

...there is no quantifiable benefit from this class either btw...

Nanc is an excellent example of intellectual FAILURE.

#47 | Posted by Zatoichi

Nanc and intellectualism go together like orangutan engineers and advanced robotics...

#49 - because people either fear or are afraid of the God of the bible - which are you? our nation is under judgment for our failure to recognize and fear the God of THE BIBLE.

"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall
come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous,
boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents,
unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection,
trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce,
despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady,
highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof:
from such turn away."
2 Timothy 3:1-5, KJV

get ready.

""I think it is a good thing because a lot of kids don't have that experience, and they already want to take prayer out of school as it is-- and you see where our kids are ending up!" said Tyler resident Laura Tucker."

Who wants to take prayer out of schools? I don't see anyone trying to ban children from praying in school as long as it is student, not school, organized.

How our kids ending up? I see a lot of them shipping out to Afghanistan and Iraq and serving the US bravely. Why doesn't Laura Tucker support our troops?

#53 | Posted by nanc at 2009-08-17 11:13 AM | Reply | Flag: idiot

islam in the classroom:

what are students learning about islam?:

what textbooks tell u.s.:

(larger objects do not fall faster than smaller ones)

correct, but more accurate if you said heavier objects don't fall faster than lighter ones.

By the way, you can win a TON of bar bets with that little factoid. Trust me.

If this happened in my state I would order a crate of bibles and burn them in front of the school.

I think they should have a course about Bigfoot, The Loch Ness Monster, New Jersey Devil, Ancient Astronauts, etc, just so all the other superstitous kids don't feel left out.

FYI: Here's my favorite bible verse:

What's the big deal. I took a class called "Major Religions of the World" in college. It covered Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddism and a few others.

So? That isn't what this course is about---apples and oranges---this course is about the bible only.

You were taught the basics of each religion including an introduction to the Bible, the Koran, and other applicable books as each particular religion was being covered in class.

You were in college, not high school, and your college was not forced to offer the course.

Would you feel the same resentment if Texas high school kids were taught about the Koran or Tipitaka (one of the books used to teach about Buddism)?

Not at all, if all were taught factually---but that isn't the case here though is it---so why bring it up?

Or is it the fact the Bible has to do with Christianity? which bothers you?

It bothers me that public schools are being force to offer classes about the bible. I guarantee you that it will not be a factual course. I doubt Enuma Elish or the Epic if Gilgamesh will be treated with the importance they deserve in the writing of the bible. However, if they actually teach the true history of the bible--I would support such a course.

Tell me---what do YOU think is the history of the bible? What was its beginning?

#16 | Posted by CalifChris at 2009-08-17 02:58 AM | Reply | Flag

"seed-bearing plant "

So much for broccoli and pineapple.

Here is my favorite Bible verse:

Not to mention potatoes.

correct, but more accurate if you said heavier objects don't fall faster than lighter ones.

#59 | Posted by briwo at 2009-08-17 11:19 AM | Reply | Flag:

Only when in a vacuum. On Earth, heavier object fall faster than lighter objects. Do you think a feather made of lead and a regular feather will fall at the same speed? Do you think a bowling ball will fall at the same speed as a balloon?

get ready.

#53 | Posted by nanc at 2009-08-17 11:13 AM | Reply | Flag:

Get real.

On Earth, heavier object fall faster than lighter objects.

Not true- objects with more mass fall faster. A feather falls slower than lead because the feather has less mass. The density of lead is what makes it fall faster. Same with a bowling ball compared to a balloon- the ball is more dense.

#69 | Posted by kanrei at 2009-08-17 11:41 AM | Reply | Flag: failed elementary physics

#45

When I was in WI I was on the school budget committee.

They voted to eliminate one full time teacher of a basic course inorder to hire two part time interpreters for the kids who didn't speak English.

I was passionately opposed to this.

The school board lowered the GPA for kids to participate in sports.

In my home, I override the school board and my children had to have a B average in order to play sports.

There will always be elective subjects, there will always be sports. The problem is that parents and school boards have become enablers and are dumbing up American kids.

There are less asshole ways to correct me.

#60 | Posted by richardspirit

"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them." - Joseph Brodsky

please look up the definition of the word elective before you write a headline on an elective

thank you

#48 | Posted by afkabl2 at 2009-08-17 11:03 AM | Reply | Flag:

The headline is accurate. The headline doesn't say students must take the course---the headline says schools must teach the course. Being elective has nothing to do with the main point---schools are being FORCED to offer bible history in their curriculum. The fact that if 15 students don't sign up for the class then it doesn't have to be taught is meaningless---the POINT is that Texas schools are being FORCED to offer bible history in every school in every district.

However, if they actually teach the true history of the bible--I would support such a course.

#63 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob

And the truth comes out. Bob's reason for being so against this is because he thinks it won't be taught correctly. If it were to be taught along the lines that HE thinks it should be then all would be well in Bob's world.

A feather falls slower than lead because the feather has less mass.

LOL.

Nanc,

I thought the bible was more than just a book to you Christians? BTW, I read it the first time when I was 11 and by the time I was 15 had concluded that it was a bunch of convoluted crap.

However, there are a few stories and passages that I do still enjoy such as the story of Samson and Delilah but not on a religious level more like mythology of the Greeks.

In the bible God creates light and separates the light from the darkness on the first day---but doesn't create the sun until the fourth day.

What was the source of the light on the first day, and what made it dark on the first day after light was created?

Since we now know the sun is about 5 billion years old, the first day must have been five billion years ago. But we also know the universe is about 14 billion years old. In God days, that is about 2 weeks. I wonder what God was doing for those two weeks before he created the sun on the first day, and why was the light from the other stars counted?

I'd like to take that Texas course.

And the truth comes out. Bob's reason for being so against this is because he thinks it won't be taught correctly. If it were to be taught along the lines that HE thinks it should be then all would be well in Bob's world.

#75 | Posted by everlong at 2009-08-17 11:45 AM | Reply | Flag:

Nope--not at all. I just deal in facts. Facts are the bible comes directly from Enuma Elish--Epic of Gilgamesh--and other ancient stories. That is not my opinion.

Christianity is in real threat of becoming a Cult...

-faithful getting more radical
-pushing for Federal Mandating of it and State
Sanctioning of it...(um...that's why our forefathers
left Europe btw)
-trying to bring in a Second Dark Age of Theology and Myth over Science and Logic...(Creationists, Intelligent Design)
-and all while their numbers are beginning to dwindle and the number of Atheists, Agnostics, and Spiritualists is on the rise...

I hate to say this because I know it will ruffle feathers. But 99% of Christians don't know the true
history of where their belief comes from. Everything
in Bible was essentially stolen from earlier pre-existing religions.

don't believe me, look up Mithras, look up Horus,
look up Krishna, Osiris, etc...

there have been at least a DOZEN saviors throughout the ages, almost all of which PREDATE Jesus...

Jesus was just the latest and the greatest such figure...and likely was made up for political reasons (a faction of the Jews were fed up with the San Hedrin)

other saviors and messiahs who, were born of virgins, had twelve disciples or close followers, were born on December the 25th, walked on water,
had the "Miracle" of loaves...etc...

go here...and learn about the 2000 year old almost certain lie you've all been sold...(if you brave enough).

Not true- objects with more mass fall faster. A feather falls slower than lead because the feather has less mass. The density of lead is what makes it fall faster. Same with a bowling ball compared to a balloon- the ball is more dense.

#69 | Posted by kanrei at 2009-08-17 11:41 AM | Reply

Damn dude, you really did fail elementary physics.

A feather9or a piece of paper) falls slower that lead because of AIR FRICTION, nothing to do with weight,size, or density.

All objects, on earth, fall at the exact same rate. if I remember right it's something like 32f/s squared.

Christianity is in real threat of becoming a Cult...

It always was. The only difference between a religion and a cult is the number of followers.

Yes Bri, I screwed up. My own fault for breaking ALL of the Retort Commandments:

1. Thou Shall Not Talk Science When Thou Knows Shit
2. Thou Shall Not Post Technical Posts in the AM
3. Thou Shall Not Respond to BoOB

#83: FF

Richard:

You are free to believe what you want to. We are free to believe as we want to.

You may call it "crap", I am free to call it a book of instruction, a book of faith and a book that shows us the greatest gift of Love.

I wish you well.

If this happened in my state I would order a crate of bibles and burn them in front of the school.

#60 | Posted by richardspirit at 2

and if you were like most hypocritical liberal bigots you would then get on a site like this and then complain about all the nazi like actions from the right and shit like that...

you liberal fucks are so easy to read..

A feather9or a piece of paper) falls slower that lead because of AIR FRICTION, nothing to do with weight,size, or density.

All objects, on earth, fall at the exact same rate. if I remember right it's something like 32f/s squared.

#81 | Posted by briwo at 2009-08-17 11:56 AM | Reply | Flag

You contradict yourself. You say a feather falls slower, then you say all objects fall at the exact same rate. Can you figure out which statement is correct?

the POINT is that Texas schools are being FORCED to offer bible history in every school in every district.

#74 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2009-08-17 11:

see your point but we know good and well your intentions and what they were..

shake things up and you did.....

not as good as me but hey...keep practicing and maybe someday................

"and all while their numbers are beginning to dwindle and the number of Atheists, Agnostics, and Spiritualists is on the rise..."

I'd say its because their numbers are dwindling that they may be becoming more radical.

Those who remain get to choose their congregation's path.

You contradict yourself. You say a feather falls slower, then you say all objects fall at the exact same rate. Can you figure out which statement is correct?

#87 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob at

let me put this into persecptive

would you rather have the proverbial safe or a feather hit you on the head at the end of the fall

and the ROADRUNNER is nowhere to be found....

Texas schoolboard rules that an elective course that teaches about the bible become mandatory?

Whaa?

A "Mandatory Elective"?

Move over "Military Intelligence" and "Jumbo Shrimp"!

Are they also making Hans Christian Anderson and the Brothers Grimm's books mandatory?

C'mon, be fair.

Be Well.

It bothers me that public schools are being force to offer classes about the bible.

It wouldn't bother you if schools were forced to offer a course in physics, because it sees it as an important part of understanding science.
It wouldn't bother you if schools were forced to offer a course in drama, because it sees it as an important part of understanding literature.
It wouldn't bother you if schools were forced to offer a course in accounting, because is sees that as an important part of understanding business.

Yet it bothers you that the schools are required to offer a bible history class because it sees that as an important aspect of understanding western culture or history.

I remember taking a medieval literature course in a public university. The students who had no understanding of the bible were completely lost.
I remember taking a renaissance history course in a public university. The students who had no understanding of the bible were at a serious disadvantage.
I remember taking a survey of art history at a public university. Students who had no understanding of the bible were unable to grasp the thematic importance of many works.

Bible literacy is essential for understanding western history, art, literature and politics.

It should be offered as part of a high school curriculum.

You know, perhaps I should contact my local school board and ask them to not teach the Pythagorean theorem and musical theory. After all, Pythagoras and the cult of Pythagoreans developed mathematical and musical concepts (same ones taught in schools today!) for metaphysical and religious reasons.

You say a feather falls slower, then you say all objects fall at the exact same rate. Can you figure out which statement is correct?

In a vacuum a feather and a lead weight fall at exactly the same rate.

Once you add atmosphere the feather falls slower than the lead due to air friction.

No contradiction.

Be Well.

In a vacuum a feather and a lead weight fall at exactly the same rate.

Check out the link below. Of course, it all hinges on whether we actually went to the moon!

"www.jimloy.com"

Posted by Jak_Se_Mao at 2009-08-17 11:46 AM

I visited Pisa in 1999. They had all sorts of cables on the Tower so it wouldn't fall over.

**********
Fudd's First Law of Opposition: If you push something hard enough, it WILL fall over.
**********

Now back to the regular battle of wits between unarmed opponents.

#93 | Posted by dethspud at 2009-08-17 12:15 PM | Reply | Flag

That isn't what he said though is it. Pay attention--maybe reading it twice will help your comprehension.

A feather9or a piece of paper) falls slower that lead because of AIR FRICTION, nothing to do with weight,size, or density.

Here he says that the feather falls slower.

All objects, on earth, fall at the exact same rate. if I remember right it's something like 32f/s squared.

Here he says that all objects fall the exact same speed.

That sounds like a contradiction to me. I don't see him mentioning a vacuum anyplace.

they teach islamic studies in most, if not all, high school world history classes...one teacher had the audacity to tell one of ours that ala was the exact same God of the bible

If you object to it when a teacher gives a religious interpretation during a class, why do you want Texas schools to teach the Bible? Wouldn't that be better suited to your home or church?

#97

I don't believe they are actually teaching the Bible. And no, I wouldn't want someone in a public school whom I know nothing about their spiritual beliefs, teaching the Bible to anyone.

Bob's reason for being so against this is because he thinks it won't be taught correctly.

What's the correct way to teach the Bible in a public classroom? Do you tell the kids that it is the literal truth authored by God? Do you tell them its human origins and the long and convoluted history of authorship? Do you teach it alongside all the other major religious texts as an equal to them -- no better or worse than the Koran or the Torah or the Book of the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

Holy rollers who think this law is a good idea seem to be missing the big picture. If a teacher can't say that it's the Word of God, you end up with a secular take on the Book that could introduce some doubt and skepticism into junior's mind.

And we can't have that.

What's the correct way to teach the Bible in a public classroom? Do you tell the kids that it is the literal truth authored by God? Do you tell them its human origins and the long and convoluted history of authorship? Do you teach it alongside all the other major religious texts as an equal to them -- no better or worse than the Koran or the Torah or the Book of the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

You say:

"This course is not out to attack your faith nor out to convert you.

While people hold these texts to be sacred and expressing spiritual truths, for the purpose of this class and course we will be looking at them as documents that provide an understanding of the culture and beliefs of the ancient Hebrews and early Christian societies.

You are more than welcome to believe or not believe what you wish to about these texts in regard to religious truths, but if you wish to discuss these texts as such, please do so within the context of your church or family.

If you think you will not be able to do so, this is probably not the course for you. Please choose another."

Lisa,

If you call slaughtering whole cities love then I would hate to be your kids.

"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall
come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous,
boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents,
unthankful, unholy, blah blah blah, quack quack quack, yadda and etc...

#53 | Posted by nanc

What? An ideology using fear to keep the flock in line? This is entirely new and different to me!!!

Spooky language intended to frighten simple minds into obedience. Working as intended, apparently.

Christianity is in real threat of becoming a Cult...
-faithful getting more radical
-pushing for Federal Mandating of it and State
Sanctioning of it...(um...that's why our forefathers
left Europe btw)
-trying to bring in a Second Dark Age of Theology and Myth over Science and Logic...(Creationists, Intelligent Design)
-and all while their numbers are beginning to dwindle and the number of Atheists, Agnostics, and Spiritualists is on the rise...

I think the Christianity meme and its followers, owing to their increasing irrelevancy, are behaving much like an old dog whose existence is in jeopardy...when trapped in a corner, the dog's best and last hope is to snarl and lash out. There's strong historical evidence for this pattern, especially in times of social, economic, political, etc. upheaval - a yearning for tradition and the "good old days" in the face of something "frightening" and new.

Even if Nanc and the other cultists got their way, our economic troubles wouldn't disappear overnight, politicians would not transform into saints, and people in general would not cease to behave monstrously toward one another. We'd have all of our current problems, and be spinning in circles, talking in tongues to the imaginary sky-wizard...

Also, I would say that pagan faiths such as Druids, Celts, American Indians etc have a just much of an impact on Western society as the bastards sons of Abraham(Jews,Christian,Muslims
)

Richard:

The NT tells of Jesus who gave his life for all.

The greatest love is laying down your life for another.

In the NT we are instructed over and over to love one another, giving us various examples.

My children are just fine. Thanks for your concen though.

#102 | Posted by Zarathustra - you apparently overlooked my first statement on this thread.

it is documented that helen keller when told by annie sullivan communicated to her they would study the bible - something helen had no way of knowing - she told annie, (paraphrased) "good, i was wondering when we'd get around to speaking about Him." God exists - whenever you're feeling that portion of you you cannot fill with things or thoughts of other people - only God can and will if you ask Him. look at this thread and tell me who among us is the most miserable, hateful and vile.

BTW Richard, don't you find it a little on the hypocritical side to say on one hand that the Bible is "crap" and on the other try to persecute me with a book that you admit you don't believe in??

Bible literacy is essential for understanding western history, art, literature and politics.

It should be offered as part of a high school curriculum.

Isn't an understanding of ALL the major religions essential for understanding western history, art, literature and politics?

The Bible does not need to be mandated to be taught separately. I remember being taught the ABOUT the Bible and ABOUT the Koran and ABOUT Buddhism and many other religions in High School but NOT as a separate course in HIGH SCHOOL. It was enough for me during High School. There are many College and University level courses being taught about the Bible (and all the major religions) and that is where it IS appropriate. Not in High School as a separate course UNLESS they are going to offer courses for EACH religion of the world as an option also.

Lisa,

so you worship Jesus and not God...is that right...

now how is that not worshiping something above God...?

I know the church has twisted the holy trinity to include Jesus but the Trinity predates Jesus or the Jews even so how is that possible?

Lisa,

i hold you to your own standard...where is hypocrisy?

Lisa,

And I am sure that your Jesus would condone all the bloodshed in his name right? Are you believer that our war in the Middle East is a holy war?

The NT tells of Jesus who gave his life for all.

Soldiers do the same for their country in every war, and they often lose their lives in for more horrific circumstances than Being beaten and naled to a cross. Facts are the bible says Jesus wasn't dead very long---so he didn't give up that much. BFD. Is Jesus dead NOW? Seems like he's had a nice long life even being dead.

The greatest love is laying down your life for another.

Often done by humans that don't come back after 15 minutes of being "dead".

In the NT we are instructed over and over to love one another, giving us various examples.

Of course that doesn't apply to health care for all humans. Then you should count your money first.

My children are just fine. Thanks for your concen though.

Right--typical--me and mine are fine---you and yours can fuck off and die.

#104 | Posted by Lisa at 2009-08-17 01:02 PM | Reply | Flag:

Isn't an understanding of ALL the major religions essential for understanding western history, art, literature and politics?

To be sure, to know something about all of these religions is important for any educated person.

However, whether one likes it or not, the Judeo-Christian tradition has been central in the development of western culture.

Keep in mind that in Western society, the separation of church and state has been around for only 230 years. In the 1700+ years of Western history prior to this, church and state were inextricably linked. The church that society was inextricably linked to was Judeo-Christian--not Muslim, buddhist, druidic, etc.

#99

RCADE:

I don't want the Bible taught in public schools but to comment on your post:

The wording used could be just like I heard from my sociology teacher..."They believed...".

I also take from your post that you don't think that Christians have never questioned what we are taught.

I was in 5th grade the first tme I questioned. My older children all questioned at one point or the other and I'm sure so will my youngest.

We don't shut our children out from the world to keep them from hearing something other than what we have learned.

We are not brainwashed. We are people of faith. We have faith that the Bible is the true word of God. We have faith in all it's teachings. We have faith that Christ will come again.

I find it hard to understand why people who are so sure that our faith is a fairy tale are the ones who appear to be more threatened by what we believe. Not you neccessarily, but many others here.

However, whether one likes it or not, the Judeo-Christian tradition has been central in the development of western culture.

I agree with this. Even thoughts that rebel against the teachings or influence of it are still influenced by it. If you go left because I said to go right, then I had an impact on your decision.

I find it hard to understand why people who are so sure that our faith is a fairy tale are the ones who appear to be more threatened by what we believe.

I feel no threat by what Christians believe, but I do fear the actions those beliefs tend to influence in some.

I agree with this. Even thoughts that rebel against the teachings or influence of it are still influenced by it. If you go left because I said to go right, then I had an impact on your decision.

Yes!

If atheists hold "a" theism, isn't it important to know what the "theism" is all about?

If I am going to be against communism, then I should have a good understanding of what it is.

If one is going to react against the Judeo-Christian tradition, at least know what you are reacting against.

Here, I am arguing simply for bible literacy, not bible belief.

#113 | Posted by Lisa - our son and son-in-law study apologetics - fascinating field. i'm of the mind our children do make up their own minds. my biggest fear is that one of ours will convert to catholicism! HA! i come from a very long line of catholics - well over a thousand years.

#116

I agree fully. To oppose something without understanding of it is to be nothing other than a follower. To be fair, most of these people don't even know their own faith and go about living their lives according to misquotes and wrong ideals.

Bob;

Your last post WILL be the last one I respond to. I prefer to have conversation with people eho are not intellectually dishonest.

We believe that Jesus died to atone for our sins.

You just ranted on about nonsense the rest of your post...not even worth commenting on.

The fact your last sentence assigns me to a position that I do not care about others and one that I have never held, shows your lack of honesty.

Carry on, Bob. Make up whatever else you feel neccessary to try and win a point.

My reward will come later.

I find it hard to understand why people who are so sure that our faith is a fairy tale are the ones who appear to be more threatened by what we believe. Not you neccessarily, but many others here.

#113 | Posted by Lisa at 2009-08-17 01:17 PM | Reply | Flag

We have seen the damage the fairy tale has done to other cultures and nations--Iraq--Iran--Pakistan-
-Israel--Palestinians--Iraq--
Saudi Arabia---and we don't want the same thing happening here. Allah is the biblical God---same deity---same OT. I think it is worth fighting for to keep that evil message from children.

It is like Punks and Mohawks really. Ask any punk who wears a Mohawk why they wear it, they can't give you a real answer other than it shows they are punk, but being punk is to be a nonconformist. If they wear a Mohawk because it is the punk thing to do, how punk are they really?

I quoted this before, but it bears repeating. I forgot who said it:

Most people learn of G-d as children and, as a result, are adults with a child's understanding of religion.

If the class honestly teaches the history of the Bible, then the result should be the next generation of Texans doesn't believe in the Bible as strongly.

Because once you know where the Bible came from and what kind of people were editing its contents, it really loses alot of its credibility.

from just above...

"Most people learn of G-d as children and, as a result, are adults with a child's understanding of religion."

#121 | Posted by kanrei at 2009-08-17 01:31 PM

EXACTLY...

Jesus is no more than Santa Claus for adults...

"he's making a list, and checking it twice,
gonna find out who's naughty and nice"...

Not really the point I was going for Earth, but if that is what you got from the quote, that may be the original point of it.

Hi Grendel! How are you?

Kan:

I wasn't refering to you either.

But I want you to think about something, and I know you will because you have always been a fair minded person.

Our Christian values are ours. I have spent my time here defending my beliefs...not forcing anyone else to share them.

As the years go by in our American history, the elimination of God in our daily lives, our historical songs, The Pledge of Allegence, currency, etc. is being forced.

I don't believe one should feel threatened by the actions that "OUR" beliefs tend to influence!

#121

I don't know about your religion Kan, but our education in our religion does not end when we are children. We continue to study well into adulthood and the rest of our lives.

Our spiritual maturity grows as we age.

Our Christian values are ours. I have spent my time here defending my beliefs...not forcing anyone else to share them.

As the years go by in our American history, the elimination of God in our daily lives, our historical songs, The Pledge of Allegiance, currency, etc. is being forced.

I don't believe one should feel threatened by the actions that "OUR" beliefs tend to influence!

You don't consciously at all, but notice you have taken references to G-d as attacks on Christianity as if no other faith had a right to G-d.

How does not having G-d on money stop your worshiping of Him exactly anyway? I can explain how forcing children from an early age to make a pledge to a flag, under G-d, does force monotheism on children, but how does not forcing it stop your worship? I can also how forcing children to make the pledge to the flag is anti-G-d's teachings really, but why?

I don't know about your religion Kan, but our education in our religion does not end when we are children.

Sadly, it does. The average person depends on someone else to read the Bible to them, at a time when they are not really paying attention, and then go about misquoting it and holding others to standards that do not exist in the Bible. Most people of all faith think they can get religion through Osmosis.

Hi Lisa,

I am okay. I hope you are doing well.

I see you have taken on a few posters here.

I have argued with a number of atheists, agnostics, etc. on the Retort over the years. I know that I will never convince them to have faith; that has never been my goal.

The only thing one can accomplish to a certain degree is disabuse people of the stereotypes associated with people of faith.

I think you do that well.

That, of course, often bothers many.

After all, one needs stereotypes in order to maintain hatred.

I didn't say it stopped me Kan.

My point was that the actions of those who don't believe are influencing our country, rather than the other way around as you implied in your post I mention.

However, my son and I were at Family Christian Book Store last week and he wanted this one particular folder and T shirt. I told him that I would get them for him but because of there religious theme, he wouldn't be able to wear it or take the folder to school.

It might offend someone.

To me....that is sad.

People can wear rock T shirts that deplict Satan but my son couldn't wear a shirt to school that says anything about his beliefs.

my very favorite fourth grade public school teacher read from the bible during class & I loved it since I had never heard it before!

Such fascinating tales...

I got my first A ever in math from my year in class with her:>)

My point was that the actions of those who don't believe are influencing our country, rather than the other way around as you implied in your post I mention.

Not at all true. The fact that we are even having the debate at all proves the influence of the religious in our lives.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

What about a law putting G-d on money?

no law respecting an establishment of religion

What about placing "Under G-d" in the pledge?

no law respecting an establishment of religion

Grendel,

We are doing very well, thank you. Glad you are doing well also!!

And thank you...I try not to be forceful, rather bring the truth of our beliefs to the table when I need to defend them.

I agree 100 percent with the rest of your post!! Nicely stated!!

In my home, I override the school board and my children had to have a B average in order to play sports.

There will always be elective subjects, there will always be sports. The problem is that parents and school boards have become enablers and are dumbing up American kids.

#71 | Posted by Lisa

Damn. That's a little rough don't ya think? I'm not telling you how to raise your kids, but there always seems to be at least one subject that kids, or people in general, are not good at. In which case making a C is very common. I graduated very high in my class and made excellent grades but algebra always got me. I could never muster more than a C in that class and I tried everything.

People can wear rock T shirts that deplict Satan but my son couldn't wear a shirt to school that says anything about his beliefs.

#130 | Posted by Lisa at 2009-08-17 01:53 PM | Reply | Flag

Can other students wear a Satan T shirt to school? No.

Is anyone stopping your child from wearing his Jesus shirt outside of school?No

What's your point? Your kid can't show off his holier than thou shirt in school?

And thank you...I try not to be forceful, rather bring the truth of our beliefs to the table when I need to defend them.

"Preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary use words."

St. Francis of Assisi

People can wear rock T shirts that deplict Satan but my son couldn't wear a shirt to school that says anything about his beliefs.

That is wrong IMHO. There is a difference between what kids wear and what the school teaches. If concert shirts and brand shirts are allowed, so should Jesus shirts.

Grendel,
Lisa and I are not fighting for the record. We have these debates often and never get mad at each other.

People can wear rock T shirts that deplict Satan but my son couldn't wear a shirt to school that says anything about his beliefs.

#130 | Posted by Lisa

good point...lately I've been wearing a lavender gemstone necklace for its therapeutic benefits, but am careful where I go in public with it. Usually I just tuck under my shirt or take it off to avoid weirding people out:>)

Lavender awakens you to your true spiritual essence. It gradually aligns and integrates all of your physical and subtle aspects. With improved alignment, energetic blockages are released, life energy moves more freely, and every part of your being becomes more receptive to the influence of Spirit. As energy flows are corrected, old issues rise to the surface for resolution, and confusing symptoms often disappear. Lavender fosters awareness of your inner dimensions as it helps you become a greater vessel for Spirit.

Kan:

When I told my in laws that I was leaving the Catholic religion, my father in law said "who is going to read the Bible and interpret it for you" so I agree with you o that point!!

I have a mouth to pray with before I start reading it, asking for wisdom. I have eyes myself to read it, and I have the Bible to interpret it because I have learned to read it correctly. That was my response to him.

I was now a rebel!! Lol

The headline is accurate. The headline doesn't say students must take the course---the headline says schools must teach the course

Then the headline is still a lie, bOoB. If you bothered to read he bill, you would see there are instances where they don't have to teach it.

They have to teach english and certain science and maths no matter what. However, there are conditions where they don't have to teach that course.

Read the bill and quit lying in your headlines.

"Preach the "word" at all times and when necessary use words."

St. Francis of Assisi

#136 | Posted by Grendel

there fix that for u!

word = tinnitus, of course:>)

Bani:

I've heard that.

My approach is different...lol...are ya shocked?!

I pray.

LOL

But I do like the smell of lavender!!!

I use prayer like a sounding board really- I use it to work through problems. It is like mediation, concentration, or deep thought- they all are the same thing as prayer really.

Amen Grendel!

And Kan is right...we never fight. We have really good discussions! I'm trying to learn more about Jewish beliefs. He's been very helpful!

I'm trying to learn more about Jewish beliefs. He's been very helpful!

I am not really good for that. I call myself "Jewish" because of tradition and heritage, and the holidays I follow are Jewish, but my religious beliefs is a mutt honestly. It is about 50% Judaism, 25% Taoism, and the rest Christianity, Islam, Buddism, etc.

"When I told my in laws that I was leaving the Catholic religion, my father in law said "who is going to read the Bible and interpret it for you" so I agree with you o that point!!

I have a mouth to pray with before I start reading it, asking for wisdom. I have eyes myself to read it, and I have the Bible to interpret it because I have learned to read it correctly. That was my response to him."

---Lisa

This is one of the biggest problems with protestants...very few have had proper instruction customs and cultures of the times that bible was written. Understanding of ancient tongues is nil and even the understanding of their father the Jews is greatly lacking...so you rely on faith to interpret for you which why it has been used to justify mass slaughter, genocide and other aborations of society.

objects with more mass fall faster.

Untrue kanrei. All objects in a vacuum fall at the same rate ~10m/sec^2 on earth

Kan:

I meditate as well.

I pray to give thanks, to request, to give praise and like you...use it as a sounding board!

The power of prayer is amazing.

#148 | Posted by goatman at 2009-08-17 02:15 PM

You missed the Dogpile. I screwed up and broke Retort Commandments, but got a FF out of it at least.

Lisa,
Richard Bach did a lot to my religious growth with Illusions. If you have not read that book, you really should.

I just deal in facts.

#79 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob

FF

My approach is different...lol...are ya shocked?!

I pray.

Lisa

no , it's really gentle & soothing & good at reducing the effects the EMR's from the computers & so forth in our hectic technological daily life...even from the vehicles we drive...so I really like it.

It was a gift from a friend of mine who passed a year ago from a heart attack at age 54. He revealed to me a year before he died that he was a walkin from age 5 on...now he shows up regularly enough in the odd ways so many we love do that have passed on to the greater realities of 'word':>)

Tadowe type of prayers work, too, you know:>)

You missed the Dogpile.

I read serially and reply as such. I guess I'll come to it. Sorry for the redundancy. I didn't mean to jump on top.

I hope you still aren't willing to trash Galileo's work though! *grin*

"at the expense of the schools - who must now prepare a course, offer a course and find someone to teach it, even if not enough sign up for it."

Okay, I think the law is silly. Even if, as I understand it, the course merely needs to be offered. Christianity is not the only religion, nor the Bible the only scripture, that has had a huge impact on history, western and otherwise. (And Nanc, if you're doing it for moral reasons, that's even more wrong. Don't the righties want us not to teach tolerance or other "leftwing" values?) But this comment displays a lack of knowledge about how schools work. (I'm not saying the poster is dumb, mind you. You mightn't know this if you don't have knowledge of how schools work.)

If the course is meant as a social studies course, history of the Bible and its impact on world religions, then any certified/licensed HS social studies should be able to teach it. (Just as any HS SS teacher can teach Civics or western history or world history.) If it's intended as a literature course, any certified/licensed English teacher should be able to teach it. (The part about what values they inflict upon it is different--it's not about ability, but about approach. If it's a public school, there should be no belief or disbelief averred by the teacher, at least not without being open to argument.)

As for preparing the course, it might mean they have to prepare it (design it); it might not. It depends on how scheduling works in a school and how the assigned (or volunteered) teacher works. If, for instance, the scheduling takes place early in the spring before the course is to be held, and not enough sign up for it, then the course is dropped and no one has to design/prepare it. And many teachers don't fully design a course before Day One. They don't necessarily have to, either. Depends on teacher, admin, and school culture. I have a course in the fall that I haven't designed fully. I know the texts; I know the skills and dispositions I want the students to have at the end; I know some of the final projects and some assignments along the way. But most of that is in my head. I haven't really begun design in earnest, and the class begins next week. (Of course, now we're approaching educational philosophy and teaching styles, and learning styles, so we'd have to start a new thread. Or talk offlist.)

Thus endeth your lesson (and quite a tangent it was).

No, it was well earned. I posted stupidly on a subject I knew nothing about at a time my brain was not awake enough to tell me to STFU.

"Preach the "word" at all times and when necessary use words."

St. Francis of Assisi

#136 | Posted by Grendel

there fix that for u!

word = tinnitus, of course:>)

Perhaps, I misunderstand the post. Do you know the original quote? I imagine it would be in Italian or Latin. If so, I don't think "tinnitus" would be the word. It means ringing--as a bell. "Verbum" is Latin for word. Of course, logos, from the Greek would be even better.

Gospel is an Old English word meaning good news--"goth spel."

Sorry if I missed the point or the joke!

Kan and Lisa,

I was not originally referring to your interesting and certainly respectful exchange. Others here seem to be a bit upset with Lisa's posts.

Just wanted to make sure Gren, because I was wrongly an asshole to you before.

Richard:

I don't know what experiences you have had but I attend a Bible Church. We go strictly from the Bible and when we study, we go to the meanings of words from their original language.

Infact, the study Bible I have is extensive that way.

Do Christians have a Talmud type book? I wonder because it could be a major difference between why Christians mainly seem to follow while Jews question and fight, even among themselves. If you notice in the OT, there is always a Jew asking G-d why every time G-d wants to do something. Noah with the flood, Moses and Exodus, Lot and Sodom.

Lisa,

And how exactly did your church determine which books to include in the bible? Or do you just use the standard that was a copy of a copy of an interpretation of a copy.

Is it the real gospel or is it memorex?

Last time Hazeltine had a golfing event like the latest PGA...several people had been stuck, one died from the lightning bolts....who lived accoss the road from me when I lived on Togo Road, Lake Minnetonka

My dream experience at the time ~ since I was working evenings at Redmond Products in Chanhassen was watching these then acquaintances making fun of my multicolored home at the time while in my driveway.

It was only later when I found out that Scot & his now deceased buddy had been struck by the bolts at that time.

It took years for Scott, now my new friend, to regain his coordination from it enough to mow his mother's yard again.

#156

Grendel,

It is never my intention to upset anyone.

I am curious why someone would get so angry at one who doesn't insult them but is just explaining their beliefs.

If they respond to me with unkindness or name calling...it's ok. I've got my heavenly armour on and just repeat Mat 5:11. *wink*

Just wanted to make sure Gren, because I was wrongly an asshole to you before.

Stop it! Over and forgotten. (And you weren't an asshole then. Saying that you were is a big overstatement.)

Must go for the afternoon.

Cheers

I have Hamlet 3:1 =D

Grendal, the 'word' can be construed to be thunder in the physical:>)

ask St. Paul:>)

Richard:

I have two different Bibles. A NIV and a KJV. I priamirly use my KJV.

Scripture says that no word of man or stroke of pen shall ever change the MEANING of these words.

And although my two Bibles may use slightly different wording from time to time...the meaning is exactly the same.

" the meaning is exactly the same "

How true.
Utterly devoid of any meaning whatsoever.

How true.
Utterly devoid of any meaning whatsoever.

#168 | Posted by Zatoichi

missing Max again?

third bourbon already?

Well Zat, that may be true for you...but not for me!

I still love ya anyway!!

How are the grandbabies?

Lisa,

This scripture that you use as the backbone of your faith...who wrote? who copied it? and who interpreted? the answers to each of these questions is man...by what do you provide that proves this is really gods word and not the inclination of a man?

Of course he is going to put passages in there to make you feel all warm and fuzzy and to not question his work so that when you come to the morally difficult passages then you can just relate back to the statement that its okay cause its gods word.

Also, if there is only one meaning and a multitude of interpretations...how do decide which one is the correct one? Oh forgot you pray on it so your subconscious can make those difficult decisions for you.

And although my two Bibles may use slightly different wording from time to time...the meaning is exactly the same.

#167 | Posted by Lisa

The bible at the Marriott I like to hang out alot has paradise instead of third heavens...never mind what the dead sea scrolls have on St. Paul's famous second Corinthian heaven quotes ...lol

Oh forgot you pray on it so your subconscious can make those difficult decisions for you.

#172 | Posted by richardspirit

good idea...we all could be better off for doing such daily contemplations on the 'word' if nothing else:>)

Richard,
I take the Bible to be the equivalent to Aesop's Fairy-tales or the Brothers Grimm. They are basically morality tales using extremes and often symbolism to convey lessons. Some people do what is right because it is the right thing to do, but others need reward or punishment to motivate them and the Bible fills that need.

I was at a funeral recently and I heard this: "Forgive us our debts..." WHAT?! Debts? What happened to trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. These are two _very_ different words. WTF? (No, I don't know what sort of church it was; I was there to support a friend, not worship.)

It was the First National Church of Christ's Savings and Loan.

It was the First National Church of Christ's Savings and Loan.

#177 | Posted by kanrei

ff & who does the Vatican's bookkeeping for the last hundred years or so? lol

"who is going to read the Bible and interpret it for you"

There really are at least three aspects to any "Bible study". One is the aspect Lisa seems to focus on, using the Bible to help her in facing the trials and tribulations of life, to give her support (sorry if I misattributed and that I oversimplified). Another aspect is to understand the Bible, the book itself, its history, its story, its creation and evolution. A third is to understand the impact of the Bible on the Western world, what role it played in Western civilization, through the religion (Christianity) associated with it.

The three are really different. The problem I have arises when people mix the three, especially when a literal application, which is fine for the first mentioned aspect, is used for the other aspects. As seems to occur frequently when fundamentalists are in the mix.

The bottom line on the Bible is that it was an integral part of Western civilization (and of the Byzantine empire) since the time of the Roman empire. And any understanding of that civilization requires at least a knowledge of the Bible's role.

" If you notice in the OT, there is always a Jew asking G-d why every time G-d wants to do something"

damn jews...

Richard:

We believe the Bible is the word of God given to the prophets by God.

Of course man translated it into English and again, I have faith that no man will change the meaning.

If you take different Bibles and open them up to the same Book, Chapter and verse...you will find that even if the wording is slightly different the meaning is the same.

I use the Bible to interpret itself.

If you take different Bibles and open them up to the same Book, Chapter and verse...you will find that even if the wording is slightly different the meaning is the same.

#181 | Posted by Lisa a

I differ...

#179

Although I do use my Bible during trials abd hardships, I agree with your post completely and ise it in the same manner.

#182

You do?

Have you tried it?

We've done it numerous times and I haven't found one instance where it didn't.

Lisa,

If that were true about the meaning...then why are there so many churches? Each disagreeing with the interpretations of these scriptures?

And what about the Mormons or the Witness'es? Where do all these fit?

#182

You do?

Have you tried it?

We've done it numerous times and I haven't found one instance where it didn't.

#184 | Posted by Lisa

U r using a methodology that can work under the assumption that the "Bible" is the truth.

Since it isn't in my world ~ never has been nor will be ~ yes, it could work, but the flaw remains the same if one assumes onlybeggottenism is flawed which, of course, I do know it is...as much as Data knows what he knows.

Christianity's greatest 'sin to the world is promoting 'Onlybegottenism' in my view, but that is okay for all of us in our past lives most likely were Christian in one lifetime or another as we unfolded to greater truths ~ usually:>)

If that were true about the meaning...then why are there so many churches? Each disagreeing with the interpretations of these scriptures?

Because all Churches are lead my man, and man has placed himself as the middleman between us and G-d. It is man who keeps man from reading the words of the Bible and fills their heads with non-teachings disquised as divine thought. Phelps is a religious leader who does not reflect a single one of the teachings of Jesus, yet proclaims himself a Christian.

KAN,

Exactly, if I were to profess a religion it would be one of direct enlightenment without the need of a proxy or even name. There are no prophets or saviours there is only me and my connection to something other than me...whatever you may call it. It has so far not failed me for the most part...which leads me to believe that it is the act of faith that makes "miracles" and not what you have faith in.

Richard:

Man formed the different church's. They have man made laws that often go against Scripture.

That's what happens with the pride of man.

Oops sorry Kan! Didn't see your post.

And you would be correct!

I were to profess a religion it would be one of direct enlightenment without the need of a proxy or even name.

There are those who feel that way. I have heard that to name a faith gives it shape, and faith with shape becomes inflexible over time. One reason Angels are not named in the OT is because, to name them separates them from G-d, and opens them up to worship.

There are no prophets or Savior's there is only me and my connection to something other than me...whatever you may call it.

Big thumbs up there too. You, me, Lisa, I think we all agree, but are fighting over what we call it. Like the gay marriage- we agree on the rights, but get hung up on if it is a marriage or a civil union. Why not just let it be and not worry about the name?

To put it into DR terms, Bush called himself a "Compassionate Conservative" and ran as a Republican, but I cannot name one "compassionate," "conservative," or "Republican" thing he did during his 8 years.

"There are no prophets or saviours there is only me and my connection to something other than me...whatever you may call it."

a true prophet & any saviour ultimately doesn't save anyone so much as he/she helps one save themselves by helping their faithfuls in their own doings & good works & daily contemplations in doing service for what commonly is perceived as the lord's works...

Kan,

Sounds good to me...i love the debate though because it forces to evaluate and re-evaluate what i believe in order to present an argument. My favorite is to play devil's advocate without telling anybody to see the reactions and changes in the way I am treated...very fascinating.

But Richard, because man had done that does not lessen God, Jesus or the Bible.

The Bible warns us of false prophets....wolves in sheeps clothing.

This is why I do not belong to a certain"religon" but go to a Community Bible Church instead.

I don't believe one should feel threatened by the actions that "OUR" beliefs tend to influence!

#125 | Posted by Lisa

Lisa you personally don't "force" anything onto anyone and I admire you for that. But, that is not always true for your brethren. For example can you explain this?

#191

I have to correct you slightly, Kan. I DO believe the prophets existed and I DO believe we have had our Savior.

Other than that, I agree.

"The Bible warns us of false prophets....wolves in sheeps clothing."

any Koran, Bible worth the price of kosher sea salt will almost always say the same...it's the products that bear fruit that determine the worthiness of said type of books

July 14, 1099 The First Crusade Christians stormed Jerusalem.

the city was sacked the following day, resulting in a massacre that was grim even by medieval standards: 40,000 Muslims & Jews were brutally murdered in a matter of a few hours.

But the First Crusade was a huge success because Muslims were stopped for awhile...

#130 | Posted by Lisa - very sad - those are the only tees ours do wear and i've told them if they're called in for being offensive to turn them inside out.

Mark 8:36-38 (KJV): For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

i pray your children as well as my own never hear the words, "I NEVER KNEW YOU." most of the tees ours wear are geared to make a person search and think for themselves what the meaning of the tee is.

p.s. - the WORD OF THE LORD is meant to be offensive.

Sorry cranc, your imaginary friend still doesn't exist.

#191

I have to correct you slightly, Kan. I DO believe the prophets existed and I DO believe we have had our Savior.

Other than that, I agree.

believe what you will, zat - my future's brighter than one who doesn't believe. i will pray for you.

Maybe the class will be able to show movies, like The Last Tempation Of Christ. I love the part where Harvey Keitel as Judas gets really frustrated with Jesus's flip-flopping, and says to Jesus, "First you say love, then you say fight. Come on, make up your mind!"

Nanc-
I hope you profoundly understand that the "I" in your quote is not you, or the egotistically pornographic and self-righteous pity-party you call your faith.

Zat-
Here's a helpful translation of Nanc's "i will pray for you ":

Jesus is gonna set you on fire and let me watch, sinner.

Nanc,

Why is the WORD OF THE LORD meant to be offensive? I heard that in a church once too...they said true Christians should be bigots and hate any other religion. Those were the exact words of the preacher...I was appalled.

don't put your words or thoughts to my name, betelg - it is THE LORD'S hope that NO ONE perish - it's my hope also - go pick a fight with someone else. trust me, i'm no fan of zat's, but i do hope he/she changes position on faith rather than attack me at every opportunity.

#208 | Posted by richardspirit - think conviction. are you ever convicted?

To put it into DR terms, Bush called himself a "Compassionate Conservative" and ran as a Republican, but I cannot name one "compassionate," "conservative," or "Republican" thing he did during his 8 years.

#192 | Posted by kanrei

he kept Cheney & his Israeli 'friends' from nuking Iran in his last year in office...of course few know of this atrocity

Kanrei--I mostly agree on Bush, but to say he entirely lacks compassion... The Africa work is widely looked upon as a Good Thing. I don't have links in front of me, but between my center-left Democratic party county vice-chair pal and my rightwing/libertarian friend, I am convinced that there was compassion manifest in those efforts.

Donner:

What I call the scenarios you have brought forth are nothing but men talking God's word out of context and applying it for their own personal gain.

I'm not sure what chapter of Psa that first quote was in...but I'll find it.

The quote about the shield of armor was to mean the spiritual war between believers and satan, not an earthly war.

Part of my disappointment and frustration with the past administration is that they preyed on God loving, God fearing people, using God to scare them into supporting their own agenda.

I pity them on judgement day when they will have to answer for it!

They are not true Christians.

And thanks for the kind words, Donner!

#208 | Posted by richardspirit - so YOU HAVE attended fred phelps' or rev. wright's church? i've never heard a sermon like that - of course i've only attended catholic, methodist, pentecostal, baptist and non-denom churches.

#208

If you heard that in a "Christian" church, I hope you walked out and never went back!!

That is NOT what true Christians teach.

one day soon, you all may see similar events here:

"I pity them on judgement day when they will have to answer for it!"

the day everyone gits out 'em caskets to follick upward to one of 'em St. Paul heavens?

-They are not true Christians.

Yeah, I try to imagine Jesus walking around with his credit card machine charging peasants for healings.....

... and then I think of him telling his followers to sell everything they own and live communally.... but then I see nanc's head exploding and I figure it was worth it.

Nanc,

Convicted of what? I was once convicted of possession but what does that have to do with scripture?

Actually, it was a Evangelical Church right in the heartland...Wichita Kansas...not far from Phelps though...and again at a Baptist church again in Wichita Kansas...

Lisa,

they are lucky that is all I did...my daughter was in Sunday school and I was afraid for her safety.

He shall cover thee with His feathers, and under His wings shalt thou trust: His TRUTH shall be thy shield and buckler.

psalm 91:4

You get paid by the word or by the post NANC?

#219 | Posted by richardspirit - the enemy of the Lord would saddle you with what is called "guilt" and we'll willingly go along with his program in spite of knowing something is amiss for rewards in the here and now - "conviction" is when we KNOW we're doing something against God and immediately repent.

#222 | Posted by Salaryman - i expect no payment in the here and now.

Good, because with the claptrap you post you'd owe money.

Nanc,

That doesn't explain why the WORD is meant to be offensive...offensive to who? the sinners? are we all sinners according to the bible? so it should be offensive to everyone? that doesn't make any sense at all.

"p.s. - the WORD OF THE LORD is meant to be offensive."

Bullshit. The entire point of "love your neighbor as you love yourself" is anti-offensive. The entire point of showing a way to salvation is to get people to follow, not to butt heads with them.

I read that some fundie idiot claimed that 70% of Americans are going to hell. That is the kind of religion and religious view that needs to disappear if humanity wants to survive and mature.

Richard,

I don't blame you for being upset over that so called sermon.

It upsets me when I hear things like that too.

Unfortunately there are men who have egos that are larger than life and they want people to worship their words instead of God's.

What you witnessed was again someone abusing their power, this time in a congregation not correctly speaking of the word of God.

My Pastor is a very humble man. He does not sit up by the altar, he sits in pews along with us. He is no better than any one of us.

If you want to know the characteristics of a true Christian ...read the Beatitudes.

"Ye shall know them from their fruit"

It's gotta be by the post, Johnson I imagine he gets paid by the word.

So how do I get hooked up with a gig like that? I'm tired of giving it away for free.

i expect no payment in the here and now.

#224 | Posted by nanc at 2009-08-17 04:13 PM | Reply | Flag:

Of course not, but you do expect "payment" later, and part of your payment is watching those who ridiculed you either suffer at the hand of the Lord, or admit that YOU (not the Lord) were right all along.

Have a good day.

#220

Richard:

When my oldest children were younger, we were Catholic and they attended a Catholic School.

My daughter who was in second grade brought home the explaination of the Ten Commandments given by her teacher.

Thou shalt keep holy the Sabbath was explained as only going to a Catholic church because going to any other church is a "mortal sin".

My children never went back to that school nor have we ever stepped foot into a Catholic church again.

That is not the only teaching of that religion that is not Scriptural.

But that doesn't mean that all Catholic people are the same way. Just like it's not fair to say that all Christians are bad because the actions of a few.

#226 | Posted by richardspirit - think in a paradox - He also said we must lose our lives in order to gain life.

thankx, betelg - backatcha!

#222 | Posted by Salaryman - i expect no payment in the here and now.

#224 | Posted by nanc

B.S.

"My Pastor is a very humble man"

is he the fellow who uses "Pastor" as his hammer?

LOL

No Bani, not the same man.

#231 | Posted by Lisa

I've been told by "Christians" that I was going to hell because I was a Catholic. That is part of why non-religious people are so scornful of "Christians".

I want to thank everyone for the nice discussion...it helped with the boredom while I have to sit with my leg elevated while everyone else is out playing in the sun!

You guys rock!!!

I've been told by "Christians" that I was going to hell because I was a Catholic.

#236 | Posted by AILtd at 2009-08-17 04:39 PM | Reply |

It's not because you're catholic, it's because you're gay.

From Nanc's post above...karma from 1099 ad sacking of Jerusalem?

Turning a Blind Eye to Murdered Christians
By: Mark D. Tooley
Monday, August 17, 2009

U.S. church groups reserve their fire for what's really important: denouncing Israel.
In June, North Korean's beastly communist dictatorship executed a 33 year old Christian woman for distributing Bibles, while also imprisoning her 3 little children, husband and parents, in conditions undoubtedly ghastly.

Several weeks ago, mobs involving hundreds, and perhaps thousands, of enraged radical Islamists destroyed several Christian villages in Pakistan, responding to incendiary rumors about Christians supposedly desecrating the Koran. Hundreds of homes were destroyed, and at least 14 Christians were murdered, including three Christian women and a child who were burned alive as the radicals torched houses and shops.

I've been told by "Christians" that I was going to hell because I was a Catholic. That is part of why non-religious people are so scornful of "Christians".

#236 | Posted by AILtd

sellin' fear has to be as old as prostitution

#233 | Posted by Bani - our family HAS been blessed and not because we expect it.

Telling somebody that they will go to hell is much worse then sawing an innocent man's head off in front of a camera. Could it be possible that some people get it a little wrong one way and other people get it really wrong in a much more violent way?

I still havent figured out why atheist lefties attack Mormons and Catholics but defend Muslims

We're coming

#236

I'm sorry someone said that to you.

Although I do have a problem with some of the Catholic teachings, God isn't going to say "you're going to hell because you're Catholic" or Lyou're going to hell because you are Baptist"...we are not judged that way. God knows what is your heart, my heart.

#238

And 101

A sin is a sin is a sin in the eyes of God...but one.

And it isn't being gay!!

the bible is very clear about who will not see the kingdom of heaven, ailtd. find out for yourself - take no person's word for it.

I use the Bible to interpret itself.--Lisa

ROFLMAO. Seriouosly? Seriously?

So, are they going to teach the history of the bible or are they going to teach history from the bible? That is my main concern here as some serious issues arise when people start looking at the bible as a legitamate historical source.

It says that no man or pen can change the meanings, so it must be true. *pissing my self laughing over this one*

The stories in the OT were told word of mouth first, then written down, then rewritten, then translated into different languages, then hand copied, then stylized, then retranslated...anyone seeing issue with continuity here? Not Lisa, but that is not a shock. And dear old Nanc just keeps spouting phrases and quotes to "scare" all of the non believers. OOOOOhhhhh...I'm so scared.

I would love to see what "rock" shirts Lisa is referring to that promote satan that kids are wearing to school. Of course, people like Lisa see satan everywhere. Maybe she is talking about Harry Potter...lol.

Oh, and careful Richard. Lisa is about 2 seconds away from not reading your posts anymore. generally, if someone disagrees with her for long enough, and especially if the have concrete eveidence and make statements that make her look like the moron that she is, she will post a long post about how she is not going to listen to them or debate them anymore, generally followed by bible quotes. It's kind of of cute in a way.

#233 | Posted by Bani - our family HAS been blessed and not because we expect it.

Posted by nanc

you were all blessed to be alive ~ religions such as Christianity, Islam & other don't bless u...

G-d does every moment in every which way ~ no matter what the outcome...to everyone! The hard part is accepting this sort of 'love'...'er blessings

Telling people "God bless u" is a form of telling God what to do...hence another fallacy at the core of most Christian teachings & prayers for the heathens.

A sin is a sin is a sin in the eyes of God...but one.

And it isn't being gay!!

#244 | Posted by Lisa

certainly Christianity's greatest sin to the world is "onlybegottenism", but I repeat myself...

he bible is very clear about who will not see the kingdom of heaven, ailtd. find out for yourself - take no person's word for it.

#245 | Posted by nanc

sellin' fear has to be as old as prostitution

#240 | Posted by Bani

certainly Christianity's greatest sin to the world is "onlybegottenism", but I repeat myself...

#248 | Posted by Bani

It's kind of of cute in a way.

#246 | Posted by missesmerelda

lol

#244 | Posted by Lisa

Lisa, he was just trying to provoke me. You should know 101 by now. Though he does hate gays.

The headline is more nefarious than the actuality if it all. BUT, it is a slippery slope and I expect that this elective will eventually be a requirement.

Either way, with Texas having one of the highest illiteracy rates, any additional reading should be embraced.

"the bible is very clear about who will not see the kingdom of heaven, ailtd. find out for yourself - take no person's word for it." - Nanc

I'm taking Christ's word that God wants us all in heaven. I am _not_ taking the word of others that we are doomed "unless we repent". I believe in the Catholic version that "hell" is a rejection of God - that is, one must unequivocally reject God and then one experiences despair, aka, hell. And I don't at all believe that someone who doesn't believe in God falls into that category.

Either way, with Texas having one of the highest illiteracy rates, any additional reading should be embraced.

It wouldn't help. A large part of Texas illiterates are the illegals here. Many are illiterate and are part of that number. It would be hard to encourage them to learn to read anything

#253

You lost me...lol.

You believe that there is or isn't an actual hell?

Catholics also believe in pergatory. Where in Scripture does there claim somewhere other than heaven or hell?

If there is a hell---the biblical god is pure evil. What kind of loving god would torture a soul forever? Who would worship such a god? Only evil people.

What evil could a person do that merits an eternity of suffering---only a god with a mind 1000 times as evil as the worst human that ever lived.

No human on earth ever did anything or conceived of anything as evil as a hell.

Therefore--there is no god. There may be an evil entity--but I wouldn't call such a POS a God---and I certainly wouldn't worship it---as stated--only evil people would worship an evil god.

"You believe that there is or isn't an actual hell?" - Lisa

Don't believe in any physical location called hell. Believe we move on to something else, some higher plane of existence, perhaps as pure energy with consciousness - don't know.

"Catholics also believe in pergatory."

Purgatory was just an invention to answer what happened to unbaptised children, people who lived before JC, people who never heard of JC, other such anomalies. Things the CC didn't have a good answer for. A place where these humans could learn about God and decide. One of the downsides of theology, of trying to explain something not totally understood.

But the core point was always that heaven/hell were really reflective of what the person/child really believed. The hell that is so popular these days is really an outcome of the belief in scaring people into "goodness". Though I'd bet conservative Catholics, like conservative Christians do believe in a literal hell.

"Therefore--there is no god." - BBob

And collapses as proof if one believes that hell is the removal from God. Because there is no reason God wouldn't allow that. And, thus, there is a God.

#257

Wow

I have never heard anything like that from a Christian. But, OK. I'm willing to learn.

Does your Catholic church read the Bible?

Do you believe in the Bible?

And collapses as proof if one believes that hell is the removal from God. Because there is no reason God wouldn't allow that. And, thus, there is a God.

#258 | Posted by AILtd at 2009-08-17 06:06 PM | Reply | Flag:

It also collapses if hell is Club Med, or a Fluffy Bunny.

But if the GIVEN is hell is eternal torture--the point stands.

Yeah, Texas is ordering an elective course in "Bible History" that won't have any Christian teaching....Right! Let the indoctrination begin.

#259 | Posted by Lisa

When you get into theological circles, you hear that kind of stuff often. Because the point of theology, just like religion, is to try to understand the universe, our place in it, how all that pertains to the afterlife, etc.

The Bible is a tool, though a very good one, for doing this. But existence does _not_ revolve around the Bible. The CC believes in tha Bible as much as any Christian religion. And CC conservatives interpret it as literally as any fundamentalists. But the CC doesn't. It does believe the Bible is the word of God. Just not the literal word. A word interpreted through fallible people. Thus, one should learn from the Bible, but not worship it.

"But if the GIVEN is hell is eternal torture--the point stands." - BBob

I'll grant you that. And feel free to use that when debating literalists. As long as you understand that it isn't a _given_ in any absolute sense.

The Bible is a tool,

I find a lot of Christians to be tools.

"No human on earth conceived of anything...As evil as Hell..."

Pish posh. Hell, for anyone who finds his way into it, is likely to be very much like this world. Because it's construction will entirely be due to human beings.

God gets flack because he judges; some of the same people give God flack because He does not judge well enough to satisfay them.

Hell is where, concerning issues such as judgment, the ball will always stop with you---Amazingly likely just like you always wanted it to.

"There may be an evil entity...?"

The osicillation of belief among some dizzys me. There are no atheists in foxholes and, more and more, I'm pretty sure there really are no atheists anywhere.

#262

I worship God, Jesus and no one or anything else

I was raised Catholic, remained Catholic until my children were young and I have to say I have never heard that before.

You believe that the Bible is Gods word, right? But not literally. So you do not believe the instructions in the Bible that we are told to follow are true instructions from God??

If the Bible is a tool, but not God's word of instruction not to be taken literally, then what is it a tool for?

I'm sorry, I'm just very confused about what you are saying.

But Lisa, if the instructions to follow are all true, then God is a bit confused. I know, that's offensive. But there are 600some commandments throughout the Bible, and some contradict, and many don't make much sense to the modern world. Read Leviticus again.

I'm not bashing you or any sincere believers. I'm really not. From what I've read are you, you're not particularly hateful or mean. You believe what you believe. As long as that doesn't lead to hate, we're all good.

I have been, in my life, Mormon, fundamentalist born-again, Quaker, and most recently I've attended the UU church near me. I find none of them perfect, and the first two distasteful. I've read a lot about Catholicism and attended a few services, and I'm not at all interested and have little good to say of the Catholic church (though I certainly know Catholics I respect). I've concluded that I'm agnostic and don't understand God, if he exists. (Listen to XTC's Dear God and you might begin to understand my beliefs. For that matter, listen to their Garden of Earthly Delights.)

We're not going to solve differences of religious belief here. I think the best we can do, as humans in the world, is to find common ground and not hate one another.

All that said, there is some interesting conversation and debate going on here. Some of it much more reasonable than what passes for debate on other threads, some of it horrifying. Oh, well. Life on DR can be fun.

I don't know much, but I know Leviticus is primarily an historical document for Christians, not a programme for life.

Prag:

I am not offended. You are very respectful.

Lev is in the OT. With the birth, suffering and death of Jesus to atone for us, we have different sets of laws to follow.

Why did orchestrate the way he did? Not sure, I don't profess to know everything.

Now, if you can give me an example within the NT in itself that you believe is a contradiction, I'm willing to look at it.

"So you do not believe the instructions in the Bible that we are told to follow are true instructions from God??" - Lisa

Depends on what "instructions" you are talking about. In general, the Bible is a guide to help you live a better life. Full of stories, etc. Showing an interplay/relationship between God and stupid humans. About how to do things, how not to do things. But guides - not play-by-play instructions.

"I was raised Catholic, remained Catholic until my children were young and I have to say I have never heard that before."

Always has been a huge problem with the CC. It has this idiotic belief (though grounded in reality) that people should be taught what "they are capable of learning". And that "real theology" should be reserved for the "real theologians".

Yeah, you'd be very surprised at the theological discussions which occur, the ideas that are bandied about. Especially among Jesuits.

#256 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob - He is a God of punishments as well as rewards - i don't give my children a hundred bucks when they disobey. people that don't like Him here sure won't like him in the hereafter. rejection of what and who He is is the greatest of sins.

#271

I'm sure I would be!

I think a course in Bible history could be a wonderfully educative thing. Having said that, probably best not to attempt it in public schools.

The majority of kids hate history in all it's forms. A minority is fanatical about it. What makes the difference is beyond me.

However, if regards to history haters---It is recorded that three generations after the fall of teh Roman Empire in the west---Locals could no longer explain the origins of huge buildings everywhere among them.

"He is a God of punishments as well as rewards ..." - Nanc

God is about love and wanting humans to be with God. So I can't help but view this focus on punishments as crap. And that's my biggest problem with people believing the Bible literally.

#273 | Posted by Lisa

I have a feeling Grendel spent time in a seminary. If you really want to know, get him to talk. He'd undoubtedly give you a different, in some ways, maybe more than some, of what is taught there than what I gave you. My reading of him is that he is a conservative Catholic. Thus different from the Jesuits who taught me.

And then you'd get a feel for the _reality_ of the CC, the interplay and "struggle" between the CC's "libs" and "cons".

#275

I'm not disagreeing with you that God is about love but what makes you say that? What have you based that opinion on?

Be patient...I have a reason for asking!

LOL

#275 | Posted by AILtd - i, personally do not focus on the punishments, but do fear for those who do not take them seriously. God is not forceful in the sense he forces you to hell - you ask to go there when you do not accept his Son as your Saviour. it is all about CHOICE.

#275 - i love my children more than air and they are good beyond measure - but, they didn't get that way because we had round heels - they have guidelines to follow - any good parent would tell you the same.

the historicity contained in the bible is priceless - this will be a great experience for anyone who loves history. the ap reader classes here offer a couple of different books from the bible, and the reading of them is strictly voluntary - one of ours, however, found one of the books to be advanced in her younger years and went far out of her age group to read it - mostly for the points.

i'm with most here when i say "faith" should be taught foremost at home - not at school. funny how some athiests are scared poopless of a God they don't believe in!

#35 | Posted by nanc

there is no historicity in the bible. that is a complete untruth.

i wonder what nanc would be saying if the world bible read koran.

"I'm not disagreeing with you that God is about love but what makes you say that? What have you based that opinion on?"

Faith. And that is the way I see God. It is the only way I can see God. Because I see God as a creator who lets reality proceed on its merry way. Intervening now and then for reasons way beyond me. But we are God's creations. And a creator invariably loves his/her creations.

I gotta run. Thanks, Lisa. If we can continue this another time, I'd be happy to lay out my "heretical" viewpoint for you.

"but do fear for those who do not take them seriously. God is not forceful in the sense he forces you to hell - you ask to go there when you do not accept his Son as your Saviour. it is all about CHOICE." - Nanc

Almost agree with you. Except that I believe God is interested in people wanting to be with God and the means is secondary, not the focus.

#39 | Posted by rcade - they teach islamic studies in most, if not all, high school world history classes...one teacher had the audacity to tell one of ours that ala was the exact same God of the bible - don't play like this doesn't happen every single school day of the year in some place or another in the u.s.

#46 | Posted by nanc

nanc suffers from deith envy syndrom.

My god is bigger than your god.

I could see history of the Quran. Of course, you'd have to teach Bible also. Again, probably not in public schools. Too bad were all too weird about such things.

#281 Have a wonderful night!

"any good parent would tell you the same." - Nanc

God isn't a parent. God is a creator and we are God's creatures. Creatures God "cherishes", not creatures God looks for ways to punish.

Nothing wrong with teaching the Bible. The Bible should be studied in all schools. It is the most important book ever written. It's affect on BILLIONS of people in the world today and throughout history is undeniable whether you believe in God or not. In God We Trust is on our money and is part of the principles in the founding of this great nation. Countless wars throughout history have been fought over its meaning. Billions of people find hope and faith in its words.

The only real issue is whether the Bible is being taught from an academic standpoint or whether it is being used a religous teaching/conversion tool that would run afoul of separation of church and state.

I find myself in general agreement with UTASTAFF.
Mirable dictu.

it is documented that helen keller when told by annie sullivan communicated to her they would study the bible - something helen had no way of knowing - she told annie, (paraphrased) "good, i was wondering when we'd get around to speaking about Him." God exists - whenever you're feeling that portion of you you cannot fill with things or thoughts of other people - only God can and will if you ask Him. look at this thread and tell me who among us is the most miserable, hateful and vile.

#105 | Posted by nanc

IknowIknowIknow!

tis you.

I have a feeling Grendel spent time in a seminary. If you really want to know, get him to talk. He'd undoubtedly give you a different, in some ways, maybe more than some, of what is taught there than what I gave you. My reading of him is that he is a conservative Catholic. Thus different from the Jesuits who taught me.

And then you'd get a feel for the _reality_ of the CC, the interplay and "struggle" between the CC's "libs" and "cons".

I was educated by Dominicans, and know a number of Dominican theologians. Some of the older ones were hard line, but most of the newer ones keep an open mind.

Here are some of the utterances I heard from Dominican mouths.

"God offers salvation to all and to those not brought up in a Christian faith; it is offered in a way understandable by them."

"We know that Hell exists; we make no claims, however, that anyone is actually there."

Always has been a huge problem with the CC. It has this idiotic belief (though grounded in reality) that people should be taught what "they are capable of learning". And that "real theology" should be reserved for the "real theologians".

I think this is an important and many ways valid criticism.

Hi Grendel! How are you?

Kan:

I wasn't refering to you either.

But I want you to think about something, and I know you will because you have always been a fair minded person.

Our Christian values are ours. I have spent my time here defending my beliefs...not forcing anyone else to share them.

As the years go by in our American history, the elimination of God in our daily lives, our historical songs, The Pledge of Allegence, currency, etc. is being forced.

I don't believe one should feel threatened by the actions that "OUR" beliefs tend to influence!

#125 | Posted by Lisa

Lisa we're trying to save you!

God isn't a parent. God is a creator and we are God's creatures. Creatures God "cherishes", not creatures God looks for ways to punish.

#286 | Posted by AILtd at 2009-08-17 07:32 PM | Reply | Flag

How do you rationalize a god that tortures the creatures it cherishes for all eternity.

Gremdel:

Did you have a chance to check out that book yet?

Grendel,

I have moved away from my Catholic up-bringing for reasons (very few of them a knock on Catholicism) that I am not going into right now.

Nevertheless, I was educated by Jesuits and, for the most part, they were humble and worked really hard at walking the walk.

God it not a Him--God is an It.

Hi Grendel! How are you?

I am doing okay. I hope you are doing well, Truthhurts.

Did you have a chance to check out that book yet?

Lisa, I did not, but I believe I am going to need to look for it soon enough.

Thanks.

NEED to look at it soon?

That doesn't sound good!

If you take different Bibles and open them up to the same Book, Chapter and verse...you will find that even if the wording is slightly different the meaning is the same.

#181 | Posted by Lisa

can a man divorce his wife if she cheats on him?

word have meanings and words can contradict

as they do in the bible.

Hey Jeff J! Where ya been?

We missed you!

Nevertheless, I was educated by Jesuits and, for the most part, they were humble and worked really hard at walking the walk.

I certainly have great respect for the order.

I have to say the Catholic teachers of my early education were far different from the Catholic teachers of my later education.

The nuns and priests of my elementary education, taught by fear, and it is little wonder that many left the faith.

Later in life I found Catholic teachers whose deep faith was matched by their deep compassion and a sophisticated understanding of the problems of the real world and trying to maintain the challenges that the Catholic faith presents.

I wish this kind of Catholic priest was more available to people.

#233 | Posted by Bani - our family HAS been blessed and not because we expect it.

#241 | Posted by nanc

remember nanc price is a deadly sin

tis a shame stupidity isnt.

Hi Truth!

Yes. Adultery is the one reason for divorce.

He can forgive her though!

However, adultery is not just the physical act, it's also adultery if one looks at another lustfully. (Paraphrased)

Please explain about the contradicting words you mentioned in your post.

Hi Lisa!

I was in Hawaii!

I know, 'poor Jeff.'

I hope all is well in Lisa-land.

I have a tub-full of 'Captain' if things are less-than exemplary.

damn that shoulld have been pride

Th - my knuckles have your teeth tatooed on them!

Sincerely,

Frank Cotton

funny cause jesus said and I paraphrase

that under no circumstances can a man divorce his wife

except one of the writers added an EXCEPT for the cheating spouse

Yes. Adultery is the one reason for divorce. - Lisa

Is that what happened with your marriage, Lisa?

(I'm simply asking, not criticizing, btw)

Grendel,

I have moved away from my religion for reasons that I'd rather not delve into...nevertheless, the anti-Christianity, and more importantly, the blatant mis-representation of such, pisses me off to no end...coming from mostly the left.

Cool! I'm sure I don't have to ask if you had fun!!

Outside of this stupid blood clot in my leg....things are outstanding in Lisa Land!!

I haven't drank in a long time Jeff...but you go right ahead. Lol

I'm suprised you left your church. I hope all is OK with you!!

Sitdown,

I am going to chuck yer ass into a picker-bush!

Sincerely,

Frank Cotton!

t wouldn't help. A large part of Texas illiterates are the illegals here. Many are illiterate and are part of that number. It would be hard to encourage them to learn to read anything

#254 | Posted by goatman at 2009-08-17 05:43 PM | Reply | Flag:

Encouraging Mexicans to read the bible is hard?

You do know they have translated that fairytale into at least a few languages (perhaps a bit more than that), no?

Actually I think a world religous history is a very valid part of curriculum.

in fact it should be mandatory along with civics.

however the syllabus must include

all of the pagan religons that judaism and christianity were developed from.

influence of religon on political systems including military conflicts including

the crusades
the muslim invasion of europe
the dark ages
israeli palestinean conflict
impact on native cultures around the world, aborigonees, african tribes, native americans (all those naturalists saved by christian preachings and resultant cultural destruction)
influence of religon on economic persecution-Irish protestant/catholics, catholic/jewish discrimination in the good old USA
the holocaust

Catholics also believe in pergatory.

#255 | Posted by Lisa at 2009-08-17 05:54 PM | Reply | Flag:

No longer true. The church changed their stance on that only with the last 5 years or so.

You do know they have translated that fairytale into at least a few languages (perhaps a bit more than that), no?

Yes, but illiterate is illiterate, no matter what language you can't read.

I don't recall Jesus mentioning scriptwriters, paraphraseable or not.

An interesting thing about the New Testament is that Christ really had much less to say than, for instance, Harry Potter.

I imagine this was because, after all, no one was writing a novel.

Lisa,

I didn't 'abandon' my church. As it turns out both sets if parents vie for time with their kids and grandkids on the weekend. Church, as cool as it is, takes away too much time.

My wife and I are truly blessed that we have both sets of granparents who not only absoultely dote on their grandchildren but are also good friends - Yes - my wife's parents and my parents REALLY like eachother. Talk about a blessing...

Sitdown;

my first husband yes.

The man I'm married to now is wonderful! I don't have to worry about that!

When I was married before, I called myself a Christian but in all honesty...I did NOT walk my talk. I was a lukewarm, if not cold Christian. I am not proud of that but have reconciled my past with God. And now, I walk my talk.

I am not perfect, however!

I should add that my first husband was abusive as well.

Th - my knuckles have your teeth tatooed on them!

Sincerely,

Frank Cotton

#306 | Posted by JeffJ

I finally found out where Frank Cotton got is name

it is the bad guy in The Hellbound Heart (made into the Hellraiser movie) by Clive Barker who called for the Golgasomething or others.

Read teh book yesterday

An interesting thing about the New Testament is that Christ really had much less to say than, for instance, Harry Potter.

I imagine this was because, after all, no one was writing a novel.

Or the authors had different styles... if all fiction was written in the same way, it would be boring as hell.

#255 | Posted by Lisa at 2009-08-17 05:54 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
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Do you follow the scripture 100% ?

Really?

Do you even know what your bible says? or just the shit you want to know?

I grow tired to people who talk to me about their faith and Really haven't a clue of what the bible actually says other than what someone "told them"

So lisa.... who told you that Pergatory wasn't in the bible?

Th,

Frank cotton is a real person - FYI.

#314

Thanks Common...I didn't know that!

Jeff:

It's nice when grandparents get along.

This might sound stupid but I was 18 before it dawned on me.. Why do .I have three sets of grandparents??

Lol

My mothers parents were divorced and both remarried. They spent every weekend and holiday together!!

It was a wonderful way to grow up!!

"Or the authors had different styles...."

This is what comes when you aren't really familiar with the subject matter. Jesus is relatively laconic in all four Gospels.

So lisa.... who told you that Pergatory wasn't in the bible?

Um... how about the bit about it simply not being in the bible... I'm not a Christian but I know this simply from having read the bible.

The Catholics took a bit of creative license with scripture when they invented purgatory.

Lisa

Matthew 5:32 (King James Version)

32But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Mark 10:11-12 (King James Version)

11And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.

12And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

BOth are quoting jesuus. I figure Matthew was saying something about his marriage.

Thanks Lisa, I appreciate your honesty, even though as you know I am completely sceptical of the God stuff. Relationships are difficult, and I wish we didn't need them as much as we seem to.

I should add that my first husband was abusive as well.

#319 | Posted by Lisa

Inexcusable.

Vocal AND/OR physical abuse is unacpetable, no matter what the background.

"Both are quoting Jesus..."

I fail to see your point.

lisa, glad you got out of that marriage but according to the bible you are an adulterer.

that is the bible not me. personally I think your ex should have had his nuts removed.

Looks like Texas is pandering again to the Christian Right. It's about that time again. Righties are out of ideas/solutions and need a power move for the next election.

I could care less if someone wants to beleive in the man in the moon, go twice a week to worship, and give selflessly of their posessions to further their cause. BUT, it seems a little suspect that that public schools MUST offer (Goat, thats for you) lemme say it again MUST OFFER a course on the bible when there are more religions out there than Carter had liver pills.

It's a waste of time and nothing more than a way to get attention...

"Both are quoting Jesus..."

I fail to see your point.

#330 | Posted by Zed

The two quotes mean two different things.

"According to the Bible you are an adulterer...."

Oh, I get it. Well, everyone's a sinner. Jesus said your status as one was beside the point as long as you're working the program.

This is what comes when you aren't really familiar with the subject matter. Jesus is relatively laconic in all four Gospels.

What does that have to do with anything? All you're doing is describing how the author(s) decided to write the story.

"The wo quotes mean different things..."

I suppose if you look at it a certain way. I just see Jesus further explaining an issue. You guys can be so rigid.

#322

I read my Bible. I study my Bible...at home on a daily basis as well as at church.

I have never seen a reference to pergatory. I have a study Bible and have cross referenced the word pergatory and there is nothing.

If you can point something out to me I would gladly take a look.

Do I follow Scripture? Yes, at times I fail but I certainly work hard at following them every day.

darn, lisa is too nice to abuse her the next 6 months for being an adulterer, wish it was nanc who posted such a personal piece of information.

"How the authors decided to write the story..."

The real interest comes in explaining why it was written that certain way.

In my mind, the writers were going on finite and very precious recollections. The text was spare out of respect for the source.

In my mind, the writers were going on finite and very precious recollections.

or more correctly recollections, of stories repeated over several generations

BOth are quoting jesuus. I figure Matthew was saying something about his marriage.

It's passages like these that are the precise reason why a good chunk of biblical "morality" is fairly useless. The majority of unique religious laws don't benefit a large, educated, non-tribal society.

The only "guideposts" a society needs to function are those that our ancestors discovered long before they invented the religions of the world.

"Of stories repeated over many generations..."

The available evidence is it began being written at an early date. Early enough, certainly, for the persons who were there to read it. Early enough in many cases for the witnesses to write it themselves.

I have never seen a reference to pergatory. I have a study Bible and have cross referenced the word pergatory and there is nothing.

They sure hammered that (purgatory) into our heads since 2nd grade confirmation at the Catholic School I attended. Still remember it to this day.

"It's passages like this that are the precise reason..."

You're being hysterical.

Truth:

You are partially correct...however, I was not truly saved at that point in my life, not understanding what I was to follow.

I would never divorce my husband now.and for the sake of argument, if I did...I would remain celibate for the rest of my life.

The apostle Paul used to kill Christians before he was saved.

Do you think he was not forgiven?

The real interest comes in explaining why it was written that certain way.

Why? For the same reason writers decide to use any literary device or story structure... to grab the reader's attention and make the narrative interesting.

2nd grade confirmation

Oops. That was 2nd Grade First Communion. Confirmation was in the 7th grade.

"Of stories repeated over many generations..."

The available evidence is it began being written at an early date. Early enough, certainly, for the persons who were there to read it. Early enough in many cases for the witnesses to write it themselves.

#343 | Posted by Zed

simply not true, post a link or recant

josephus (AD 50) had one reference that is believed to be a forgery written many centuries later, earliest was around 100 AD iirc.

the average lifespan back around 0 AD was what around 40?

You're being hysterical.

???

How is that hysterical? It's true... or perhaps you see utility in broad generalities, sweeping condemnation, and boogeymen to back them all up.

"Make the narative interesting..."

The narative is intrinsically interesting. The Gospels are intended as history.

"How is that hysterical...?"

Take a deep beath and read what you are writing.

This is just too much....

Gave me a good chuckle, though...

Do you think he was not forgiven?

#346 | Posted by Lisa

having heard one side of your case (and very little of it might I add), you have nothing to be forgiven for.

You shouldnt feel guilty in any way for leaving an abuser. his actions mentally and physically traumatized you with guilt being a side effect of that.

you did nothing meriting forgiveness.

he rescinded your marital vow by abusing you.

Truth?

Lol

You plan on harrassing me for 6 months??

Sweetie....I am a sinner. No different than anyone else.

Are you married? Ever look at another woman and think...dang, that woman is hot?

those who have, are adulterers as well, in the eyes of God.

"Simply not true..."

As I've pointed out previously, Paul quotes Mark. This is dateable to 53 A.D. This is just twenty years after the death of Christ.

I know some scholars want to put the dates of Scripture much further along in future. Let's just say they're debatable.

You are right, Lisa. Purgatory is not in the Bible. According to the Catholic Catechism book, it was formulated by the councils of Florence (1439) and Trent (1563).

These reference verses are a real stretch.

If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. (1 Cor. 3:15)

so that the genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold which though perishable is tested by fire, may redound to praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. (1 Peter 1:7)

I wonder if the course will include the following from Ezekiel...

14"But she carried her prostitution still further. She saw men portrayed on a wall, figures of Chaldeansa portrayed in red, 15with belts around their waists and flowing turbans on their heads; all of them looked like Babylonian chariot officers, natives of Chaldea.b 16As soon as she saw them, she lusted after them and sent messengers to them in Chaldea. 17Then the Babylonians came to her, to the bed of love, and in their lust they defiled her. After she had been defiled by them, she turned away from them in disgust. 18When she carried on her prostitution openly and exposed her nakedness, I turned away from her in disgust, just as I had turned away from her sister. 19Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses. 21So you longed for the lewdness of your youth, when in Egypt your bosom was caressed and your young breasts fondled.c

Truth:

I made peace with my past a long time ago.

And I have been Blessed with a wonderful man....so it's all good!

Thanks for being so nice though. I appreciate it.

You plan on harrassing me for 6 months??

TH: Nah you're too nice. But when im grumpy look out. :O)

Sweetie....I am a sinner. No different than anyone else.

TH: There is no such thing as sin.

Are you married? Ever look at another woman and think...dang, that woman is hot?

TH: I plead the fifth. a person's thoughts are generally out of his control. Actions? well that is more debatable.

those who have, are adulterers as well, in the eyes of God.

TH: god says we sin because our eyes see something, which triggers a response in our brains? Doesnt seem very fair to me.

#355 | Posted by Lisa

Take a deep beath and read what you are writing.

You act as if I'm writing out of passion... which isn't the case. How does a society need anything more than an evolutionarily stable strategy of interaction... any of the variations of "tit for tat" in the parlance of evolutionary game theory?

The Golden Rule is a concise summary one of those "evolutionary stable strategies".

All of this prattling on about sin and sinners is irrelevant.

Are you married? Ever look at another woman and think...dang, that woman is hot?

those who have, are adulterers as well, in the eyes of God.

Good thing I'm not married ;)

"You act as if I'm writing out of passion..."

Let's just say you strain for points some times. I have the same failing.

As I've pointed out previously, Paul quotes Mark. This is dateable to 53 A.D. This is just twenty years after the death of Christ.

Whaaa? Mark wasn't written in Paul's time. Mark is dated 70 CE at the earliest. Paul was before that time.

I wonder if the course will include the following

or how bout the wonderful OT dating tips like bringing 50 foreskins to get a wife

"Society" may need nothing more than what you ask, ZOMBIE---Depending on what you'd be willing to put up with in terms of society.

Christianity is only secondarily about social forms.

The narative is intrinsically interesting. The Gospels are intended as history.

So is the Michael Crichton novel Eaters of the Dead...

Paul quotes Mark, RAY. Now, he doesn't use a footnote, but it's Mark nonetheless.

But who knows? Perhaps Paul quotes the undiscovered Q Mark may have been built upon.

#358

I read the OT too.

Although I'm not sure why you posted that reference.

Ray:

Thanks for backing that up.

I have to wonder if we're all getting excited over nothing.

I'd be almost willing to lay odds, at the last minute these classes will not be scheduled.

We'll see.

Michael Crichton wrote novels. He was attempting to entertain and make a buck. It's your idea the Gospels are in this same class?

or how bout the wonderful OT dating tips like bringing 50 foreskins to get a wife

#365 | Posted by truthhurts at 2009-08-17 08:55 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
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Ouch! yeah I forgot about that. WTF were they thiking?

It's impossible, Zed. What verse?

#362

LOL

Good thing!!

He was attempting to entertain and make a buck.

The gospel writers were jewish werent they! Wouldnt put it in the impossible column that they did something to make a buck.

that was a joke btw dont get your panties in a bunch.

This is what the Lord Almighty says: I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroya everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'"

1 Sam 15

God said kill the infants too....

Now who would kill an innocent infant?

I think if I ever actually believed a religious tenet it would be that of early Jews who did not speak the name of God. Their understanding of such a "being" was so incomplete, so inadequate that it would insult the deity to even attempt to address "him" with a verbal name. If there is a deity that is how I view it, it is totally not an understandable concept for human beings and thus shouldn't be attempted by human beings. Instead, if there is a deity, I think that deity would have intended or preferred that we spend our time on Earth learning to understand the Earth and the natural laws that govern the Earth and thus, us.
I live in the physical world, right where I think, if there is really a deity, that deity would have intended I live.

#358

I read the OT too.

Although I'm not sure why you posted that reference.

Ray:

Thanks for backing that up.

#369 | Posted by Lisa at 2009-08-17 08:58 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
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Just some ideas for the public school bible class...

Paul (I Timothy 5:18) quoted as "Scripture" Matthew 10:10 and Luke 10:7.

My memory was faulty saying it was Mark. But the truth of the matter seems even more interesting

Paul (I Timothy 5:18) quoted as "Scripture" Matthew 10:10 and Luke 10:7.

My memory was faulty saying it was Mark. But the truth of the matter seems even more interesting

#380 | Posted by Zed

hmmmm that couldnt be from any later tampering of the text could it!? Nah

"Nah..."

Quite right, Nah. Tampering is ruled out in this case. We pretty much know when Paul did what he did.

Depending on what you'd be willing to put up with in terms of society.

Not much different than what we have here. A lot of "morality" deals with what you should do in a situation where cooperation brings all parties some degree of benefit but carries a risk of exploitation by a nefarious individual. Similarly, exploiting another individual carries its own risks and benefits. This same situation arises in certain "games," and there are only certain strategies that allow players to continue to come out ahead time and again. One of these strategies is a "do unto others" approach.

At a social level (since masochists aren't that numerous), all morality can be reduced to the golden rule. You don't need any of the other baggage - it's all about as nourishing as the parsley on the side of your plate.

Christianity is only secondarily about social forms.

And primarily it is about...?

It's primarily about being saved.

I've thought some about Game Theory in relation to morality. My conclusion is that it takes you to a bad place. My observation is the mass of men already live that way.

Quite right, Nah. Tampering is ruled out in this case. We pretty much know when Paul did what he did.

Of course! All of the supporting evidence is so credible...

"So credible..."

So, you even doubt the existence of Paul?

more likely the proof of what he actually wrote.

It's primarily about being saved.

If god is the benevolent god he is portrayed to be, none of us have anything to worry about. He would no more send any of his children to hell for eternity than I would roast my own child simply because he didn't believe I existed.

If god would indeed do such a thing, he's a jerk and an evil asshole and I don't want anything to do with him.

"None of us would have anything to worry about...."

Just the point, none of us do. That's why it's the Good News.

Zed

Timothy is known as one of the pastoral letters; it was written much later, not authentic Paul. That would explain any parallelm verses. Anyway, I don't see a connection with any of them?

for the scripture says, "You shall not muzzle an ox when it is treading out the grain," and, "The laborer deserves his wages." (1 Tim. 5:18)

no bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor a staff; for the laborer deserves his food. (Mat. 10:10)

And remain in the same house, eating and drinking what they provide, for the laborer deserves his wages; do not go from house to house. (Luke 10:7)

"More likely the proof of what he actually wrote..."

The amn left a body of work you can read today. It's funny, but LACK OF such a corpus is also used in an attempt to debunk the Bible.

I'm sorry Christ isn't around to mix you a daquiri. The again, if you ask sincerely....