Figures lie and liars figure. Go figure.

None here knows the methodology used to come up with these figures.

"None here knows the methodology"

It's called counting birthdays until they're dead.

Sure, dumbfuck. Forget about percentage of GDP, at what age these countries consider the count of life to begin. At birth? 3 months? 6 months? One year? How about who gets care and who doesn't? How long do they wait? What constitutes care? What proceedures are and aren't counted? Is private pay care counted? Etc. etc.

Yep. counting birthdays is all there is to it.

All bullshit.

America has, by far, the best health care in the universe, and anyone who's been to the emergency room lately, knows that.

Go figure. What percentage of Americans are obese and hogging up the system? Fat and stupid is no way to go through life.

America's health care system is expensive and underperforming compared to many other countries. We get less than we pay for. I can't believe the right wing has scared up so many people fighting for a broken system.

Broken or not, it's the best system in the world. Mabe Obama can weed out the less deserving, see my #5!

Come on Zatoichi, give it a break. And consider the demographics with varying longeivity attributable to other factors rather than the health care system. Are you a post hoc ergo propter hoc believer without regard to consideration of contributing extraneous factors?

What effect does the U.S. murder rate among blacks have? What effect does the exclusion of infant mortality in some European Union countries have? There are many factors which are not discounted.

Or are you just engaging in forensics without regard to securing meaningful data and devising a model more reflective of the reality.

Another propaganda piece.

Fat and stupid is no way to go through life.

#5 | Posted by Beachbuzz at 2009-08-15 06:47 PM | Reply | Flag: I still like Rush, though
###

And Johnson-I'd say the second amendmenters play a big role, too. Most countries try to disarm crazies, Righties demand more firepower for them. That and "tort reform" to protect inept and incompetent physicians.

It appears,basically, that the right hates Americans.

I can't believe the right wing has scared up so many people fighting for a broken system.

#6 | Posted by rcade

Righties scare easily, Rogers. Tell them al queda is coming to steal their cookies and they'll be wrapped in plastic and duct tape under their beds in micro-seconds.

And you, of all people, should know that reality and the right parted company in 1980.

""tort reform" to protect inept and incompetent physicians. "

Yeah who wants to be the French, and Canadians healthcare systems?

Talk about scare tactics!

Since Obama is a black racist, whose wife explicitly stated that she would devote her life to prejudicial elevation of black folks, she being a really biased race-driven person as is her husband, and as was their two decade mentor, America-hater, whitey-hater, Jew-hater Rev. Jeremiah Wright, look for the racial component in proposed legislation. How does it particularly benefit the black demographic?

Let's see. There is a garbled graphic accompanying the article which says 45.7 million Americans don't have helath insurance. Somehow, this number is converted to percentages in the article's presentation with the followng data provided for those without health insurance.

10.4% Non-Hispanic whites

19.5% Blacks

14.8% Hispanics

This totals 44.7%.

Now trying to decipher the addled report, it would seem that the percentages given are intended to represent numbers of uninsured rather than percentages, and that the differential of 1.0 between the listings is just another error attributable to poor editing.

Trying to understand the data and if these indeed represent approximations of numbers of uninsured, it would seem that the racist Obama is trying to deprive Americans, who are elderly, disabled, and suffer from orphan diseases of care now available, and transfer that care to his favored constituency, black people who comprise the plurality of the uninsured, and also by default to Hispanics, and away from white people.

This seems to be another racist actuated contrivance by the career racist street agitator Obama to give preference to his group. If Americans stand still for this, then they deserve what they get. White Americans are being deceived and disadvantaged by this racist con man.

"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time." Is push coming to shove? The racist hatred spewed forth by Obama's mentor and friend Rev. Wright is coming to fruition in policies designed to improve the situations of blacks particularly without regard to harmful consequences for others. But Americans disregarded the Wright connection and elected a black racist to the Presidency. Actions have consequences.

#9 | Posted by northguy3 at 2009-08-15 07:15 PM

Most countries try to disarm crazies, Righties demand more firepower for them. That and "tort reform" to protect inept and incompetent physicians.

It appears,basically, that the right hates Americans.

It seems that "the violence" and the street intimidation is coming from the left. It's a redux of Hitler's Brown Shirts, the SA.

Will there be a pretext for something analogous to a Reichstag fire, for ostensible justification for some sort of crackdown, a purge of enemies of the state, er, of the adminstration?

"Go figure. What percentage of Americans are obese and hogging up the system? Fat and stupid is no way to go through life."

Below is the list of the Top 20 most overweight countries in the world with the percentage of the population that's overweight.

"isn't the bulk of physical violence originating with union goon squads, and uniformed black racist thugs?"

No.

What I could read into that is that Americans are lazy, overweight and eat terribly. So they are sicker and require more medical care.

"What I could read into that is that Americans are lazy, overweight and eat terribly. So they are sicker and require more medical care."

Not really, seeing as we are also the 11th healthiest nation as well.

Here's the list of the 15 Healthiest nations in the world.

1.Iceland
2.Sweden
3.Finland
4.Germany
5.Switzerland
6.Australia
7.Denmark
8.Canada
9.Austria
10.Netherlands
11.United States
12.Israel
13.Czech Republic
14.Spain
15.France

Broken or not, it's the best system in the world. Mabe Obama can weed out the less deserving, see my #5!

#7 | Posted by Beachbuzz at 2009-08-15 06:57 PM | Reply | Flag

On what do you base your criteria that we have the best system in the world when 50 million have no coverage at all?

America--#37 in Health Care

America--#50 in longevity

America--#1 in health care expenses.

That doesn't look like the best system in the world to me. Maybe you should post some facts to support your claim or STFU---simple isn't it.

Where are the Japanese on the list? Aren't they Number 1 in longevity? What about the Okinawans?

Maybe you should post some facts to support your claim or STFU---simple isn't it.

Why? So you can ignore it and then make up some stupid hypothetical? Then when that doesn't work, go ino the Bush and Iraq costs, then when that doesn't work...

CrispeeOC

I never ignore anything---I simply note that there are no factors for such a statement as made by Beachbuzz. I guess you think you don't need no steenkeeng facts to make your point.

Even your list showing America as #11 is an indication that we aren't getting our moneys worth in health care. If we spend more money than any other nation, why are we only #11? If we spend more than any other nation, why are we #50 in longevity?

The truly amazing part about it is that the median American spends 7 or 8 years of their working life paying for health coverage. For a lifespan that isn't more than a year longer than the lifespan in Albania, Ecuador, Libya, or Costa Rica.

Fairly basic medical care gets you 90% (if not more) of the benefits of our whole damned "machines that go bing" system. We'd be better off taking the difference as 5-6 years worth of vacations, in our youths, or raising our children, over a year of extra time in pain in and out of the ICU.

I guess CrispeeOC doesn't like the facts. What a surprise. I bet he's "pro-life" too.

Buffalo Bob is proudly "pro-death."

God helps those who help themselves Bob. What are you personally willing to sacrifice of your lifetime to rid this world of unfeeling life?

God helps those who help themselves Bob.

#24 | Posted by Johnson at 2009-08-15 08:31 PM | Reply

Like you know who God helps. I guess that's why Jesus told the leper and the blind man to go fuck themselves. Even in two sentences, you fuck things up and display your lack of logic. That's why reading three or more of your sentences is torture.

#22 | Posted by lawnchair at 2009-08-15 08:09 PM

Fairly basic medical care gets you 90% (if not more) of the benefits of our whole damned "machines that go bing" system. We'd be better off taking the difference as 5-6 years worth of vacations, in our youths, or raising our children, over a year of extra time in pain in and out of the ICU.

Maybe we need to use "machines that go bing" more and earlier in the process.

...I guess that's why Jesus told the leper and the blind man to go fuck themselves....

Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2009-08-15 08

"Go fuck yourselves" so sayeth the Lord.

Hmm, I don't ever recall reading that in the Bible or my Catholic school Catechism books.

You're sure He said that, BuffaloBob? lol

I never ignore anything---
#21 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2009-08-15 08:08 PM

Of course you don't Bob. Just like you don't use the religion back hand or the family member died hypotheticals.

Strike One
LINK? Can you read? Was it too tough an instruction? First time blogger? LINK.

#152 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2009-08-12 09:34 AM

money.cnn.com

Was it too tough to read the link attached to post
#145?

#155 | Posted by crispee_oc at 2009-08-12 09:57 AM

Strike Two
That all sound fantastic to me. That it pisses you off is just a bonus. I'm looking forward to the implementation of this bill--the sooner the better.

I know you right wingers jesus freaks would rather spend the money splattering the brains of foreign women and children over the landscape rather than spending the money on their health care----but I find it refreshing to save lives rather than killing random people to keep you pants pissers feeling safe from the terrorist in your closet.

#170 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2009-08-12 10:38 AM

Strike Three

So then Bob...where does it try to cut the cost of healthcare?

#184 | Posted by mikemcdon321 at 2009-08-12 11:21 AM | Reply | Flag:

I guess you've never watched a loved one waste away to nothing along with every cent you've worked your whole life for, along with your house.

#186 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2009-08-12 11:41 AM

CrispeeOC

I guess you think you made some sort of point. You didn't. Get some logic and get back to me. Learn how to have a discussion, and let me know.

Are you prolife---are you ok with 50 million Americans at risk with no health care? Can you see a contradiction?

Considering how unhealthy the lifestyles most Americans live it's amazing how the doctors are able to keep these fat, lazy, drug and alcohol impaired folks going so long. We have the best health care system in the world.

You stupid morons that think we have the "best health care in the world" deserve a painful, slow death.

America's health care system is expensive and underperforming compared to many other countries. We get less than we pay for. I can't believe the right wing has scared up so many people fighting for a broken system.

#6 | Posted by rcade

Best health care in the world!? ROTFLMAO! It never fails to amaze me how seemingly intelligent people can be such lost rightards. Sad, pathetic, but amusing nonetheless.

Anyhoo, my knowledge of health care in Europe comes firsthand. I lived there for 12 years, mostly in Norway. I am always an American, but a spade is a spade, and that country is so superior to the United States in all facets imaginable, it's laughable. Superior health care for citizens is only one area they leave us WAY in their dust. And that's just the way it is.

Republicans claim to be pro-life defenders of babies. So why aren't they concerned that the US has the highest infant mortality rates among industrialized nations? Hypocrisy?

"America has, by far, the best health care in the universe, and anyone who's been to the emergency room lately, knows that."

Only if said person has also been to emergency rooms around the world with the same ailment and the same ER breakdown? Okay, so maybe I exaggerate, but claiming that anyone who has been to a US ER knows how our care compares to that of other countries is simply absurd. I went to high school in Maine, so I know what it was like to go to high school in Hawaii. Please.

Anyway. Why is the data questionable? I took the time so far only to look at the graphics and read the captions. Is the BBC not a credible source, or are there data omissions noted in the article? (I'll probably read it tomorrow. Too tired now.)

And for those who are posting data yourselves, I don't think I saw any links or citations. Especially if you're countering what's there, you oughtta cite.

All seven people I know in Canada praise their health care system. All seven. Therefore it's good. Well, isn't that six more than Boehner uses as examples to prove how bad Canadian health care is?

#34

Some pro lifers aren't republicans.

and not that I don't care about infant mortality rates here but there is a difference between that and intentional murder.

Btw, did you see the Biblical quotes you asked for the other evening? It was you that requested them wasn't it?

Lisa,
Yeah I saw your references to harming a baby when attacking a woman. Not quite what I asked for but it was the best you could do. You're not pro-life your pro-control of other people's decisions. I guess pro-life only applies to the fetus. Once their born, who gives a shit...right?

Didn't see my Psa or Isa quotes?

And you are incorrect. I AM pro life. I do not support the death penalty, I believe the Teri Shivo case was horrific, I believe in caring for children under every circumstance, etc.

Please refrain from assigning a position to me that I do not have.

"I believe the Teri Shivo case was horrific"

How so?

Dan:

For so many reasons!

One of them being we had a simular situation in my ex husbands family.

His uncle could have pulled his wifes feeding tubes but didn't. He visited her every day at the VA hospital, he cared for her and allowed her to die of natural causes rather than allow her to starve to death.

I believe Teri's husband just wanted her out of the way...didn't want to be bothered any more with her so he could move on.

I think her parents should have been allowed to care for her.

Singapore has a fully market-based system, and the government is almost completely out of the equation. Fact is, once Americans get to the age of 60, they live as long as anyone else, except for one key group: African Americans, who comprise a fifth of the population.

Maybe Americans spend more for health care because we value it more. In other news, we spend more on leisure and food and energy and housing and highways and just about everything else. That's what happens when you have a rich country.

"I think her parents should have been allowed to care for her." LISA

Like I said Lisa...pro-control of other people's decisions. I assume you also oppose allowing a woman to decide if she should have an abortion.

"I believe Teri's husband just wanted her out of the way"

You didn't believe him when he said they had talked about it, and that's what she wanted?

"allow her to starve to death"

That suggests she felt pain or discomfort. The doctors ALL stated she felt none, and were proven correct when they cut the skull open and liquid poured out.

"I think her parents should have been allowed to care for her."

But you're a Bible follower. Did you miss the part about leaving your family behind and cleaving to your spouse?

I mean, it was the hypocrisy of the family that stunned me: we're Bible believers, unless it tells us to do something we don't want to do; but we'll invoke the Bible anyway.

Don't get me wrong, I thought it was a tragedy regardless, but to invoke the Bible while defying it is beyond the pale.

"In other news, we spend more on leisure and food and energy and housing and highways and just about everything else."

Not as a percentage of GDP.

LOL Andy.

You are saying that because I support her parents wanting to care for their daughter instead of her husband starving her, I want to control her??

If you think about it, those who supported her husband controlled Teri right to her death!

As for abortion....I believe it is murder. I would love to see abortions end!

However...that decision is the womans. God gave us free will and ultimately, that woman will have to face God with her decision.

" I support her parents wanting to care for their daughter instead of her husband..."

Why do you eschew the Bible dictate when it's convenient? And why second-guess over twenty court decisions?

More than twenty times the Schiavo case was heard in Florida courts. Every time, the court ruled that the decision was her husband's to make, upholding the sanctity of marriage long respected by legal precedent. Schiavo's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, refused to accept this verdict, feeling in their hearts that their daughter would somehow recover. Of this struggle, Schiavo's attorney, George Felos told the Associated Press, "The real grievance is not they [the Schindlers] did not have a day in court, that they did not have due process. The real grievance is they disagree with the result." The Schindler family videotaped Schiavo for extended periods of time, discarding nearly all of the footage, and prepared a short but disingenuous "highlight" video featuring only the occasional moments when her facial expression looked vaguely like a smile, or when family members were posing where Schiavo seemed to be staring, giving the illusion of "eye contact."

Dan:

No I don't believe him.

If that were true, once the doctors had stated her condition he would have announced her so called wishes at that time instead of allowing her to have therapy, etc.

He waited many years before using that claim. I can't help but be suspicious as to why.

Whether she felt pain or not Dan, they refused her food and drink. That's starving someone to death.

I'm going to let you know next time I see her documentary on TV. Watch the video tapes of her, her facial expressions when her mother is talking to her, when someone is touching her and when she was slowly dying.

Dan, you know how spiritual I am. There is a commandment "thou shall not kill". the Bible doesn't say "thou shall not kill unless the person is an inconvinience to ones life because they can't care for themselves".

Her husband killed her Dan. He murdered her. And I believe her parents had a right to stop it, even Biblically speaking.

Not clinging to your spouse is not a sin....murder is!

Where was the living will?

It was only his word.

Teri was extremely close to her parents. Why wouldn't Teri express those wishes to her parents?

"If that were true, once the doctors had stated her condition he would have announced her so called wishes at that time instead of allowing her to have therapy, etc. "

So his hope was hateful, but her parents' hope was righteous?!?

"That's starving someone to death."

"Starving" suggests pain. She felt none.

"Watch the video tapes of her, her facial expressions when her mother is talking to her"

HER BRAIN HAD LIQUIFIED. The "expressions" were your projection, not hers.

"There is a commandment "thou shall not kill""

So do you believe NO ONE should be allowed to have advanced directives? (And it more literally translates to "Thou Shalt Not Murder".)

"Her husband killed her Dan. He murdered her."

She was dead for years. Only her corpse survived.

"And I believe her parents had a right to stop it, even Biblically speaking."

Then that would make you a Cafeteria Christian.

Dan;

An occassional moment? Have you seen all the video tapes of her?

There was a two hour documentary on CBN. There were numerous facial expressions.

As for the courts...I"m not a lawyer. I'm speaking about her husbands motives and once those motives are questionable, as a parent you bet I would step up and challenge them and as a Christian I would allow God to decide when her life would end.

"Her husband killed her Dan. He murdered her."

You're retarded.

Lisa, come on.

You would want to live like that?

Not me, I have written instruciton in case that ever happens.

"Teri was extremely close to her parents. Why wouldn't Teri express those wishes to her parents?"

Huh? There was nothing your husband knew that your parents didn't?!? My wife hasn't said a word to her mother about her advanced directives (and she lives with us!). We, however, have discussed it at great length and in great detail. And if any family member tried to interfere with her wishes, I'd stand up for her choices until my last breath...even if I refused to accept her condition at first. Anyone who told me I'd "murdered" her would get a very loud, very nasty rejoinder. And that's provided I could hold myself back.

"There were numerous facial expressions."

YOUR projection, not hers. And if you shoot enough footage, you can find all kinds of things that 'look' like life. But her brain had liquified. Any "facial expression" was the persistent vegetative state version of monkeys typing out A Tale of Two Cities.

"Her husband killed her Dan. He murdered her. And I believe her parents had a right to stop it, even Biblically speaking." LISA

My wife's mother doesn't know half as much about her daughter as I do. She loves her daughter, but she is not her confidant. Once again Lisa, you are obsessed with deciding what others should and shouldn't do. Your characterization of Shaivo's husband as a murderer who was inconvenienced by his permanently brain dead wife is the epitomy of christian hypocrisy. How dare you condemn someone for making a decision based on his understanding of his wife's wishes. You've got some damn nerve girl.

Dan:

A cafeteria Christian?

I take my spirituality very seriously, even to the point that my life is more difficult due to following the commands given to us. It would be so easy to disregard my teachings and focus on wordly ideas and possessions. But instead I do what is right according to the commands given us as Christians.

A corpse is a dead body. Her brain was dead but her heart still was beating.

If all it took to pronounce one dead was a nonfunctioning brain, she would have been pronounced dead many many years sooner...and buried.

All this was, was her husbands word. And if you think people don't lie in a court room, you are mistaken. I personally have experienced someone doing just that!

If she had something in writing, that would be one thing. There wasn't!

Does your wife have it in writing Dan?

Rex:

I will let God decide when my life ends. He is in charge of my life.

Null:

You can insult me if you wish...it makes no difference to me. I am allowed my beliefs whether you agree with them or not.

Andy:

Why not just admit you hate Christians and be done with it?

Lisa, Scatforth is a total dipshit, why you are even conversing with it is beyond me.

But god did decide, it was artifical tubes keeping Schiavo alive, not god.

Been over this a couple of times, in depth, in the past few days. It's nearly time to go out for the rest of the evening/early morning, so I leave you with this:

Rex:

I don't think badly of Dan. Although I was not happy about the cafeteria Christian comment.

God didn't decide to pull her feeding tubes...her husband did. There was nothing in writing expressing Teri's wishes.

Rex:

My ex's aunt was in the very same situation.

Feeding tubes and all, she eventually died of natural causes. On God's time.

"But instead I do what is right according to the commands given us as Christians."

Well, except for that "leave your parents and cleave to your spouse" part. You ignore that when it's not convenient to your desires.

"Her brain was dead but her heart still was beating."

And she knew neither.

"All this was, was her husbands word. "

And if he lied, that's HIS sin. But twenty courts believed him.

"If she had something in writing, that would be one thing."

Bullshit. Some other reason would have been invoked.

"Does your wife have it in writing Dan?"

No. Would that make me a murderer?

But god did decide, it was artifical tubes keeping Schiavo alive, not god.

Lisa, Rex has a point. If you are going to invoke the name of god, wouldn't it be going against god to put tubes in her and hook her up to a network of complicated machines instead of letting her die as she would have normally?

Ok Lisa, whatever.....

You lost me with the god thing.....God isn't the medical technican that hooks up the tubes..

I am pretty sure all of us here have lost someone (or many) that was hooked up to tubes...

God doesn't care if we live or die.

"why you are even conversing with it is beyond me."

Tell us again about the 5 "F"s out of 6 classes, Wrecks....you were probably passed because no one could stand the thought of putting up with you for another year.

Lisa,
I love Christians. Unfortunately I've met very few Christians, and hundreds of people who claim to be Christian. Christianity is a wonderful philosophy, more Christians should try it sometime.

One thing about the health care issue is that I cannot recall hearing from the religious community to any extent.

As an atheist I would ask why is not the concept of the question "Am I my brothers keeper?" brought up?

As an atheist I would ask why is the concept of the good Samaritan not brought out?

As an atheist I would ask why is not the story of the loaves and fishes of feeding a large crowd with only a few loaves of bread and a few fishes raised? That is, as giving to all no matter how few your resources?

In this regard I am reminded of a quote from Gandhi who said "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.".

To me as an atheist the moral position is universal health care for all.

To me as an atheist it is immoral to profit from health care issues. It is immoral to deny coverage due to preexisting conditions.

Finally it is particularly interesting to me that the Republican party which is said to be dominated by what is known as the "religious (christian) right" is apparently against these supposed christian concepts as applied to universal health care for all. And these Republicans present a narrow stingy attitude of "I got mine and let those who do not have health care or are denied coverage to "let them eat cake!".

As an atheist I do not think these (religious right) are necessarily bad or immoral people. They just are not thinking of health care, as they should put it, as I understand those perspectives via Christianity, as a 'values issue'.

As an atheist I ask is there not any room at the inn?

"Some survive with literally half a brain "

And Wrecks is living proof.

As an atheist I ask is there not any room at the inn?

#67 | Posted by GodAlmighty at 2009-08-16 01:18 AM

Not when an atheist picks "GodAlmighty" as his username on a blog.

You've really gone and pissed Him off now.

There's a big "No Vacancy" sign for you at the inn.

Actually Scat, they passed me on because I had the highest asfab scores in my class of over 200 students.

"they passed me on because I had the highest asfab scores in my class of over 200 students."

With 5 "F"s out of 6 classes?

I guess there are advantages to riding the short yellow bus.

Lisa,

What is your reaction to Terri's parents claiming that as the tube was withdrawn, Schiavo blurted, "I want to live!"...? They'd already admitted they'd do anything to keep her going, even if in meant amputating her limbs, and even if they'd heard her say she didn't want it.

BTW Lisa, do you know that Scatfroth spent two years using you as a pawn in a lie against me?

Remember when Nicey posted your real name on the PWZ? And that I deleted immediately and banned Niceville and JA for 6 months over it?

And that I apologized to you, even though I had nothing to do with it?

Somehow Scatbreath inculcated himself into something that had nothing to do with him and used it to make him seem, 'important'.

Scatmouth lied about you and I for two years, feel free to set him straight anytime you like.

It doesn't matter what she knew or didn't know Dan. You said she was dead, yet her heart was beating.

I don't "conviniently" leave out anything spiritual. Thou shall not kill is a commandment. It comes before clinging to your wife.

And you're right...that sin is on her husband.

If she had it in writing it would be different. Personally I believe only God has the right to decide when ones life on earth is over, but not everyone shares that belief.

I would rhink that after the publicity of this case, anyone with strong wishes not to be f
Kept alive by support would do everything in their power to make sure their wishes were well documented and not left up to word of mouth.

#72

I don't believe she said that and nothing in the documentary said that she did.

I don't believe Teri was capable of speaking, much less a complete phrase!

"You said she was dead, yet her heart was beating."

The Terri her husband and her family knew was dead.

"If she had it in writing it would be different. "

Not according to her family, and I have no doubt the rest of the hypocrisy crowd.

" Personally I believe only God has the right to decide when ones life on earth is over,"

Okay, so you're against advanced directives for ANYONE. Speaks volumes.

"and nothing in the documentary said that she did. "

Of course CBN wouldn't broadcast that. From my earlier link:

In 2003, a court-appointed guardian for Schiavo wrote that during the protracted legal struggle, her parents had "voiced the disturbing belief that they would keep Terri alive at any and all costs", even if that required amputation of her limbs. "As part of the hypothetical presented", the guardian's report stated, "Schindler family members stated that even if Terri had told them of her intention to have artificial nutrition withdrawn, they would not do it."

Politicians inserted themselves into the fray. The case was the catalyst for Florida's controversial "Terri's Law", which gave Gov. Jeb Bush the authority to have Schiavo's feeding tube re-inserted when a court ruled that her husband could have it removed. It was a tremendously sad family situation, undoubtedly painful for everyone involved (except, of course, the vegetable Terri Schiavo).

This circus continued for years, co-opted by the pro-life movement. Many who never met Terri Schiavo argued passionately about her fate, protested court decisions, published newsletters or websites. Among the loudest hysterics, many argued in a fundamentally dishonest way, using tactics such as referring to Schiavo as Terri Schindler (maiden name), or Terri Schiavo-Schindler (a form she never used).

Terri's doctors opinion was that Schiavo's coma had been caused by a potassium imbalance triggered by her bulimia. Nutball "save Terri" activists knew better, and claimed she suffered a violent beating at her husband's hand. Her parents eventually agreed, and said that her husband often beat Schiavo when she was healthy -- but Schiavo never called the police, apparently never mentioned it to anyone, and her parents never mentioned it either until years after Schiavo was hospitalized. There is no evidence to support such claims.

As the insanity moved to the federal level, Schiavo's feeding tube was finally removed on March 18, 2005, and her heart stopped beating 13 days later. The Schindlers claimed that as the tube was withdrawn, Schiavo blurted, "I want to live!" But just this once, they had apparently forgotten to bring the video camera.

The U.S. Congress quickly passed legislation allowing federal courts to intervene, and President George W. Bush flew back to Washington to sign the bill into law. It should be noticed that this is the same George W. Bush who, as Governor of Texas, signed into state law the power of hospitals to remove a patient (in identical situations as Terri's) from life support -- a critical factor being the family's ability to pay the hospital bills -- even if such removal was against the family's objections.

House Majority Leader Tom DeLay lied for national newscasts that Schiavo "talks and she laughs, and she expresses happiness and discomfort... It won't take a miracle to help Terri Schiavo; it will only take the medical care and therapy that all patients deserve." But in 1988, DeLay had concurred in his own family's decision to withhold care for his comatose father.

In a final postscript to Schiavo's short life, the autopsy conducted after her death established that her brain damage was even worse than experts had said while she was alive, and that virtually everything the "save Terri" activists had said was incorrect. Schiavo's brain weighed about half what a healthy human brain weighs, damage that left her unable to think, feel, see, or interact in any way with her environment. There was no chance she could have recovered, and no evidence she had ever been abused.

Andy:

We all are sinners.

"Blessed are they who mourn..." Mourn because we sin. That is one of the characteristics of being a true Christian.

I am mournful when I do something I shouldn't and more importantly I repent.

Please do not imply that in order to be considered a real Christian, we are suppose to be perfect. That would be a slap in Christ's face to imply there was something we could do to get to heaven after He suffered so horribly for our sins.

HE was the only perfect one!

"BTW Lisa, do you know that Scatfroth spent two years using you as a pawn in a lie against me?"

Lisa knows better. She was shown the evidence, you lying scum.

"Remember when Nicey posted your real name on the PWZ? And that I deleted immediately..."

Complete and total lie, yet again. You DEFENDED Niceville, you lowlife piece of shit.

"and banned Niceville and JA for 6 months over it?"

Why would you ban JA for what Niceville did? Just tripped yourself up, Wrecks. Maybe it's time to blog again from the crapper, giving us again a squirt-by-squirt description of All Things Wrecks.

"And that I apologized to you, even though I had nothing to do with it?"

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight. That's a real RZ trait!

"...lied about you and I for two years, feel free to set him straight anytime you like."

By all means, Lisa...set me straight about that.

Here goes, folks...you make the call. This was emailed to me on Friday October 6th, 2006

Hi!
It was brought to my attention that you tried defending me on PWZ tonight. I just wanted to take a moment to thank you. Rex,Jackass and Niceville have been stalking me, harassing me and as you saw, they found out my real last name and publicized it.

I never go to that site, but have friends who email me to let me know when things get out of hand talking about me. Normally, I don't do or say anything about it, but today they had me so upset with that, that they made me physically sick. The authorities are involved because I do have a six year old to protect and frankly, there is something not right with all three of them. They are scary people and I don't trust them.

Well, I just wanted to say thank you. I don't know what it was you said, but owe you some gratitude. Be very,very careful if you continue to go there. They will find out who you are if you anger them and post your info on their site.

Take care.
Lisa

Well folks, there it is.

And proof positive: Rex is a lying scum.

Dan:

It wouldn't matter what her family thought if she had her wishes in writing.

I would think that had Teri blurted out she wanted to live CBN would have been all over it.

As far as the feeding tubes and God, I believe God gave gifts to everyone...in the case of medicine as well.

Rex:

Sorry, I didn't mean to ignore your post about Dan.

Here's my take on things:

What has happened in the past, happened for a reason. I was meant to learn something.

I do not hold grudges, and I am a very forgiving person. I have forgiven everyone who I felt has hurt me as I hope those who felt hurt by my unkind words and actions, forgive me.

I may not respond to those who choose to attack me, but that doesn't mean I haven't forgiven them. I just choose to stay away from the temptation of getting down in the mud along with them.

Prior to Niceville disappearing, we had made. Peace.

You and I are all good!!!

I am living a far different life as I did then and am at peace with the past, Rex.

Life is too precious!

Ok Lisa, now is your time to set the record straight.

Roachforth has been living of this dung ball for far too long.

"I would think that had Teri blurted out she wanted to live CBN would have been all over it."

Even they thought it was bullshit. But the family claimed it all the same.

"Ok Lisa, now is your time to set the record straight."

She did two and a half years ago, you shameless shit. The fact you're still lying about it speaks volumes, and it means your apologies are worthless bursts of hot air.

Dan,

I really don't see the need to rehash the past but if you want to we will.

I believe Rex did ban someone for doing that but I don't recall which one it was.

Yes, I thanked you.

Rex, Niceville and I have all made our peace.

I don't focus on the past Rex and Dan...especially when mistakes were made all around the board.

I learn the lesson and throw away the experience.

I hold no hard feelings against anyone.

"I hold no hard feelings against anyone."

I appreciate that.

Simple question: can you confirm that was the email you sent me?

Dan:

I think her parents were very distraut.

I can't speak for them.

I don't believe Teri said that.

"I don't believe Teri said that."

Nor I, but that's what they claimed, and that was the basis for their last motion in court.

It has to be put to bed for good Lisa, Roachforth had nothing to do with it, but he put himself into it seem 'important'.

It is in the past, you and Nicey made your peace and became good friends after some scrapping when you first joined the PWZ, but that died down quick.

The point is, Dinkfart had nothing to do with it and wasn't even a peripheral player in the drama, but he has made his whole existence central to that incident and to one shit I took 3 years ago.

It's amazing what kind of sick sad people you meet on the internet.

Yes Dan, I believe I sent that email to you.

But I also want to add that there were times that Rex DID protect me. I did eventually post there. That is where Niceville and I made our peace.

Both of you have very enduring qualities. I wish you two could see that in each other!!
I love both you guys and I really don't like seeing the two of you at odds with each other.

Life is too short.

Well Rex, I agree with you that we do meet some sick people on the internet...but I don't believe Dan is one of them.

Honey, I put it to rest a very long time ago. Lol

"Yes Dan, I believe I sent that email to you."

Thanks, Lisa.

"he has made his whole existence central to that incident and to one shit I took 3 years ago."

Only when you think you can lie about me with impunity. And you take a shit every time you post here.

"It's amazing what kind of sick sad people you meet on the internet."

Too damn funny, coming from the saddest, sickest fuck on the net.

Roachfroth lied to you at the time Lisa, just like he lied for 3 years.

The dude is a nobody who seems to make up lies and pretends he is involved in things he isn't, to seem like a 'player'.

Look, instead of hurling insults, why don't you two try and find some common ground, realize it's perfectly acceptable to politely agree to disagree and put the past behind you?

The wonderful thing about life is there are many opportunities for do overs!!

"Roachfroth lied to you at the time Lisa"

Read her email, you pathological liar. And keep digging, for all to see.

"politely agree to disagree"

I don't believe someone lying about me, all the while calling ME a liar, is 'polite'. I've offered to put the past behind, provided he tells the truth. Wrecks has yet to take me up on the offer.

Rex:

If he did...no one is perfect.

Truly, If God wanted us to put our focus on the past He would have put our eyes in the back of our head instead of the front where we could see where we are GOING.

Lol... Come on you guys, PLEASE?? Let's not worry about the past anymore. It isn't productive to our future.

Nah, I have zero respect for Roachfroth Lisa, he is a lying nobody with no claim to fame of his own, I only respect bloggers of substance.

It explains a lot knowing he sent you email lying about that, and it shows a lot about his character that he would expose a private email you sent him 3 years ago to make you look bad.

I would never do that to you or anyone else.

Rex??

Dan said he would forget about. What say you?

I believe Dan put that up to prove a point...not make me look bad. I wish he would have asked me first, but...it's not that important.

Rex, you can be civil with someone you don't particularly care for! I've seen you do it!

Everyone looks at the same experience a little differently Rex and Dan. That's what I mean by agreeing to disagree.

"It explains a lot knowing he sent you email lying about that, and it shows a lot about his character that he would expose a private email you sent him 3 years ago to make you look bad."
~Wrecks

How delusional are you? I posted that because it proves you're a shameless liar, and obviously will even continue that lie in the face of the truth. It makes YOU look bad, caught red-handed making shit up, and all to stroke your bottomless pit of an ego. You opened up the box, Pandora, don't be a pussy just because you've been exposed.

"Everyone looks at the same experience a little differently"
~Lisa

And back then, it made you physically ill.

Lisa, Dinkfart is a total douche, I have no respect for him at all....

He flat out made up a lie about a situation that didn't involve him and it's not the only time he has done it.

Danforth knows he is lying.......He used your email to hurt you in case you didn't said, 'yes Rex banned Jackass and Nicey for 6 months after my name was posted.'

Doucheforth would constantly lie and leave off the end of the conversation/post between he and I, where I said I was 'glad to see him' and that 'he should come around more often to build some credibility at the PWZ.'

Ask JA about it, I banned them both because it was posted 'anon'....

I have nothing but contempt for Shartforth.

* in case you 'did' say

'You opened up the box, Pandora'

No, I am flushing the toilet, floater.....

"I have no respect for him at all...

Coming from someone who deserves none, I'll wear that like a badge of honor.

"He flat out made up a lie about a situation"

The email I posted proves otherwise.

"constantly lie and leave off the end of the conversation/post between he and I, where I said I was 'glad to see him' and that 'he should come around more often to build some credibility at the PWZ.' "

Another lie. You told me the reason you backed Nicey was I didn't come around often enough, and didn't have "cred". The principle of posting Lisa's real name didn't matter, you backed Niceville. And you still feel the need to lie about it.

What a worthless piece of shit.

"I am flushing the toilet"

Well, be sure to give us another squirt-by-squirt description of your diarrhea, you were so good the first time.

Or you could just continue your regular posting...same thing.

Yes it did Dan.

As I have stated tonight, I am a different person today than I was back then. There were people in my life that were not good influences, I didn't handle things correctly...so much has changed and I discovered what really was important in my life.

I don't get upset like I used to. I put my problems in the hands of God now where as before, I was a lukewarm if not cold Christian.

I don't sweat the small stuff.

BTW...you should see what one has posted about me on different sites! It's far worse than being called a liar, although I respect both of your wishes not to be called one. The point is, I don't let it bother me anymore. My son and I are safe, we have a wonderful man here in our lives and we are all healthy.

This is a far better place I am in now than back then.

Does that make sense?

It was posted 'anon' fuckrat, I had just logged onto the blog after work and hadn't even read the post yet, shitbird.

All of which you knew and then omitted to make up your lie.

Bottom line, it had nothing to do with you....Lisa, Niceville, and I had known each other for years already at that point and you used something that had nothing to do with you, for self aggrandizement.

What a lowlife.

Ugh...you two!!

Ok...I've got about four and a half hours of sleep I can get before we have to get ready for church.

Please try and find a way to put this all behind you.

I love ya both!

Goodnight Lisa......sleep tight

"Bottom line, it had nothing to do with you"

You mean that thing you denied ever happening?!? Now you admit it happened?

Tripped yourself up again, Barishnikov. To paraphrase AH, stupid, self-delusional, and deceitful is no way to go through life.

Especially when the truth is posted for all to see.

G'night, all.

Rex, are you sure it was Dan? I honestly thought it was someone else.

I admit that my memory isn't always the best but I thought it was another poster.

Hahahaha, Lis Lis, you must be getting punch drunk sleepy......

Always remember, I never forget anything, ever......even the moonlanding, when I was 22 months old.

yep...

I still find it difficult to believe that Rex is a middle-aged adult.

"Feeding tubes and all, she eventually died of natural causes. On God's time."
#61 | Posted by Lisa
~~~~~~
"God's time" apparently includes modern medicine, because Mrs. Schiavo would've kicked the bucket long, LONG before this became a national newsmedia spectacle if she were not afforded the luxuries of modern medicine.

Did Man affect God's Will by keeping Terri Schiavo alive?

Is God really that passive, that he is amenable to human will based on the performance of a wholly artificial and external "organ", such as those which performed and sustained the most basic homeostatic functions for Terri Schiavo in lieu of her own brain's ability to do so..?

Seems to me that such a "God" as posited is wholly epiphenominal...and thus not really worth the title of an omnipotent, omnipresent, perfect "God" at all!!!

Again, I point to the multifarious distinctions between wakefulness, consciousness, volition, emotion, etc..."consciousness" is not a monolith, despite what "common sense" has taught us...

==============

"It doesn't matter what she knew or didn't know Dan. You said she was dead, yet her heart was beating."

I don't "conviniently" leave out anything spiritual. Thou shall not kill is a commandment. It comes before clinging to your wife.
#74 | Posted by Lisa
~~~~~~

Shall we then preserve, at all costs, any beating heart, anywhere? Where's the brightline? Having a highly-developed neocortex? Emotions? Core consciousness? Nuclear technology?

what have I begun? LOL

"ure, dumbfuck. Forget about percentage of GDP, at what age these countries consider the count of life to begin. At birth? 3 months? 6 months? One year? "

More evidence that wingnuts have problems reading entire sentences.

Lisa

There is no such thing as Free Will from God. There is absolutely no foundation for that statement.

If you are given a choice, and if the entity giving you that choice puts conditions or negative results to the choices given, it isn't a Free Choice.

As an example, if I gave you a hundred dollars and said it was free and you could spend it anyway you like---I gave you Free Choice to spend that hundred dollars. However, if I gave you that hundred dollars and said you were free to spend it anyway you like, but if you didn't spend it like I wanted you to spend it I would punish you somehow, that isn't a Free Choice. It is a choice---but the choice is not Free. No Free Will from God---no God Given rights from God. You should really read the bible on your own, and not rely on what others tell you is in there. If you did that, you would know that God never promises Free Will, and never says you have Free Will. You would know that God gives no rights--no right to life from God.

Remove the shooting and traffic deaths and see what happens to the numbers. Hussian and crew will not do that as we would then be near the top and there would be no "crisis" to have to take care of.

Lets force all the idiots in DC to get honest for once. Oh, I forget, it isn't in their DNA

Her husband killed her Dan. He murdered her. And I believe her parents had a right to stop it, even Biblically speaking.

Not clinging to your spouse is not a sin....murder is!

#47 | Posted by Lisa

wrong.. that is your subjective moral opinion not based in logic. The simple fact is she could not feed herself or take care of herself and if left to her own devices would die within days.

75 years ago this wouldn't even be an issue

Christ wants us to follow Him of our own free will. He could have programmed us to follow him blindly, but beginning with Adam and Eve He gave us a free will.

Are you suggesting that the only way there can truly be "free will" is to be presented with a series of options... none containing any potentially negative consequences? If so, (and again, taking God out of it to suit you) can you look around in your life and find any decision which, if you act on it, doesn't have some trade off no matter how small/negative?

#124 | Posted by OohRah

you guys are fucking crazy.. I mean bat shit crazy. Insert the word Muhammad or Shiva or Ra for god and Jesus and see if it still makes sense.

If your think the bible is anything more than a handbook for controlling the masses.. well I truly feel sorry for you.

#124 | Posted by OohRah at 2009-08-16 08:16 AM | Reply | Flag

Respond to the points.

First Point

If there is a condition placed on the gift---it isn't FREE.

Second Point

God does not give Free Will. BIBLE LINK?

LEG-
Go ahead and take God out of the equation. Regardless, all choices have intended or unintended consequences. Yet we're free to make those choices.
As for being crazy, at the end of our life one of us will be wrong. If it's me, then I've lived for a lie. If it's you, then what? Either way, it's our free will to decide.
Aren't you glad you aren't forced to believe as I do? And vice versa.

#128 | POSTED BY OOHRAH

BS and yes I am glad our country allows people to believe as they wish which countermands all assumptions that we are spiraling into a socialist culture..

In nature there are no rewards and punishments ONLY consequences.

The problem with humanity is that we believe we are ABOVE consequences due to religion and a supposed eternal life. That belief will be crushed by the universe.. yet again.

As a Christian I endure the scorn of people like you. Wouldn't it be much easier to just be like you? It would save religious ridicule.
As a non-Christian I could set my own moral compass without regard to Scriptural teachings... sure would be a whole lot easier.

#131 | POSTED BY OOHRAH

..and yet again the religioun deluded are self gratified by the illusion of martyrdom in the face of criticism of a practice not you individually.

and no as a non-religious person ( notice that I do differentiate between form) we do not set our own moral compass which to many xtians and others as being without morality. As a society we establish rules and abide by them and also follow what is considered socially responsible.

The other day I was speaking to fellow locally who has traced his ancestory to guy that actually worked and wrote parts of the King James version of the bible. His affiliation is Gnostic. I respect his right and after he explained why I understand and can see his viewpoint which is dramatically different than the local southern baptist which all publically scorn him for his views..and I ramble.

Legio:

I'm going to expand on Oohrahs response to you regarding your belief we are crazy.

If we as Christians are wrong, we have lived a life of kindness, loving others, helping others, having patience, forgiveness, experiencing peace like non other.

I will die knowing I was the best person I could be.

By your post alone with the name calling, the anger, the hatred...you can not claim the same.

And if you are wrong....you will regret your decision.

It's laughable to me that people claim without reservation that God does not exist when they have not died to have proof positive of their claims, but then insult those of faith.

I wonder how you would explain the countless people who have had life after death experiences.

I suppose you would sum them up as crazy too.

The choice is yours to believe or not. It's always been yours.

Oohrah
Sorry you are so dense that even when simplified, you still don't get it.

Let me dumb it down even more and see if it helps.

Define FREE, and then tell me how you have a FREE Choice. If I give you a hundred dollars and tell you have a free choice to spend it any way you like, but if you don't spend it the way I like--I will shoot you in the head---does that sound like a FREE CHOICE to you?

Your answer goes here._______________

Same with your concept of FREE CHOICE from God. Sending someone to hell for not living the way you would like them to live, isnt a FREE choice---it is simply a CHOICE. Once you define FREE, MAYBE you will see the point.

In addition.

Of the two points---you still ignoerd the second point. Try to focus.

Second Point

God does not give Free Will. BIBLE LINK?

Now I will add a third point. You shouldn't speak for God. You don't know how God thinks. Putting words in His mouth pisses Him off I hear. You have Him saying humanity has Free Will---you lie about what God says---God NEVER says humanity has Free Will. I can see why it would piss Him off.

America has, by far, the best health care in the universe,
#4 | POSTED BY DAVE

Amazing.

"It's laughable to me that people claim without reservation that God does not exist when they have not died to have proof positive of their claims,"

Now there's the rub, NONE of us know. Some of the atheists here at the DR are every bit as self-righteous as the fundies. Considering how much pious anger is spewed by both believers and nonbelievers, I'm more than happy to be in the 'ignorance is bliss' club.

If you believe in an omnipotent god...a god who KNEW whether your name was in the Lamb's Book of Life, BEFORE you were even born...a god who knows the outcome to every future decision you make...you DON'T have free will. You have only the illusion of free will, as you continue to travel down your preordained road of life.

"Second, this concept of society determining morality. How does a society do that? "

Trial and error. Societies that don't outlaw murder, theft, etc. go out of business. Quickly. Thus, morality evolves. It's given the trappings of moral certitude, coming from some book called a bible, koran, etc.; that helps to enforce the socially-constructed moral code.

Or is everything - and I mean everything - subject to the whims of what society might deem acceptable at that moment?

#136 | Posted by OohRah at 2009-08-16 12:56 PM | Reply | Fla

Everything is subject to the whims of what society might deem acceptable at that moment---and most use a concept of God to promote the most heinous crimes against other humans. The Greeks would bash the brains out of babies they deemed deformed. Multiple societies have accepted human sacrifice as normal and needful of their God. Many others have accepted cannibalism. Others have accepted slavery. What else is left? Have you ever read any history to ask such a question? Are you really that uneducated?

Oohrah

Your lack of intelligence merits a big FUCK OFF dUmmY. I never realized your ignorance was as vast as you proudly display.

Here's the list of the 15 Healthiest nations in the world.

#17 | Posted by crispee_oc

Again, this country is plagued by too many Americans who eat badly and don't exercise, coupled with a medical system hobbled by government interference. It adds up to high demand with both doctor and patient not concerned for costs because a third party is paying the bills.

America may be among the 15 healthiest nations in the world, but it is also one of the 15 wealthiest nations in the world. Poorer nations don't have the means to pay for health care, nor the means to supply their people with adequate food. Hence, higher mortality and low medical costs.

You can't expect to understand statistics without understanding the context they were drawn from. If we were to compare the America of today with America at the time Medicare became law, we would see when health care prices started to take off. About that time we would see eating habits and exercise habits start to deteriorate.

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to us, NOT WILLING that any should perish but that all should come to repentance"

2Pet 3:9

"Enter ye in at the strait gate for wide is the gate and broad is the path that leads to destruction and MANY THERE BE WHICH GO IN THEREAT.

Mat 7:13

Gods will for us is that all should be saved, but he knows that some will refuse Him because he has given us free will to decide for ourselves.

If we did not have free will, all WOULD be saved according to Gods will stated in 2Pet.

The fact that God knows before we are born what we will decide to choose, does not mean He has decided for us. God is all knowing.

Oohrah:

I think that is why we are seeing more and more missionaries. Our church has and supports many missionaries in other countries. I am in the process of developing one of my own. But it's just ideas at this point.

I'm not sure how to respond to your question.

Since the only to the Father is through the Son, that would say no...however I haven't really studied completely yet on this issue so I can't comment with certainty. I just keep praying that more and more people will at least have been given the information to decide for themselves.

What are your thoughts?

Amazing that people can live their lives with such ridiculous ideas, and never see a flaw in the logic. Like, all the stories of the bible are stolen stories from older religions. If the older religions are false--the bible must be false. It is like worshipping a comic book character.

The older religious stories make far more sense than their poorly edited biblical counterparts.

LOL

Oohrah was right! He said you won't believe the Scripture YOU had requested.

I just fail to understand WHY you requested it in the first place??

Oh well...you were proven wrong regarding your claim that there is no free will so your last post doesn't suprise me!!

Have a Blessed day Bob.

Insults and name calling begin in three....two.....one.....let 'er rip, Bob!!

I agree with that Oohrah. And this topic was the next one I planned on discussing with my Pastor. It's difficult for me to give an answer on yet.

And I agree with you regarding those who try and "earn" their way to heaven thinking good deeds will get them there.

When I hear someone say they do good deeds therefore they will get into heaven, I cringe. It's as if they slapped Christ in the face and the first thing I say to them is ...if there was something you could do to get there then why did Jesus suffer and die for you? Of course...no response.

"First seek righteousness.." Obviously they haven't seeked it yet or they would have those characteristics described in the Beatitudes.

Just keep praying for them!

#149 | Posted by Lisa at 2009-08-16 02:22 PM | Reply | Flag

Free Will is not mentyioned by God in any way. You provided absolutely no scripture to support that God ever gave Free Will to humans. This is true simply because humans do not have Free Will from God. There is a Choice---but it is not a Free choice. If one of the choices has a barb in it---it isn't free. You fail the logic test yourself.

If I give you a hundred dollars and tell you have a free choice to spend it any way you like, but if you don't spend it the way I like--I will shoot you in the head---does that sound like a FREE CHOICE to you?

Don't worry---even though it is a simple yes or no answer, I don't expect a response from you. A response would require some thought. You seem incapable of such action.

If I give you a hundred dollars and tell you have a free choice to spend it any way you like, but if you don't spend it the way I like--I will shoot you in the head---does that sound like a FREE CHOICE to you?

Mr hypothetical strikes again??

Would this passage from the Bible qualify as FREE Will? Or FREE CHOICE?

19.I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Deuteronomy 30:11-20 (King James Version)

CriospeeOC

Absolutley not---define FREE and you have your answer. I see you can't respond to the hypothetical. It is the same choice you say God offers---it isn't a FREE choice is it. Can you say what the difference is between a FREE choice and a choice? I doubt it.

Saying you have FREE WILL---but if you choose against what I want you to choose leads to a severe punishement---the choice isn't FREE. Why do you have such trouble grasping such a simple concept?

But BB--

YOU are choosing even when you have the information.

That is your free will to choose.

Regardless of the outcome, I have the choice.

I don't follow God out of fear. I follow Him because I believe He exists.I live my life according to the Bible because I believe those words are there to make me a better person, living a happier life.

But you're the same guy who years ago told me I do nice things for others out of my selfishness so I would never expect you to understand what is truly in my heart.

Gods WILL is that we all are saved. Obviously if He states that broad is the road to destruction and many will take that road....it isn't His WILL for us that comes into play. Therefore, we DO have free will.

Obviously you don't care about having that "gun" to your head, you excercized your free will to decide not to believe.

Free will!!!!

I provided Scripture to prove to Bob we are given free will. I have explained it twice now. Still he can not open his mind to understand it.

He"s either that blind or too arrogant to admit he's wrong. Either way, I need to get going.

Have a great day all!!

CriospeeOC

Absolutley not---define FREE and you have your answer. I see you can't respond to the hypothetical. It is the same choice you say God offers---it isn't a FREE choice is it. Can you say what the difference is between a FREE choice and a choice? I doubt it.

Now it comes down to the definition of FREE? I see you have advanced from Free Will to Free Choice? Hypotheticals and semantics.

Seeing as you ignored the various Bible passages using the exact phrase "Free Will", how about some passages refuting the Free Will or Free Choice under your scenario?

YOU are choosing even when you have the information.

That is your free will to choose.

#156 | Posted by MURPHY at 2009-08-16 03:06 PM | Reply | Flag

That is simple CHOICE---that is not a FREE CHOICE. Do you see a difference?

Hint---one has punishment attached to it---can you guess which one?

"can you guess which one?"

Spending eternity with a bunch of religious nuts.

Seeing as you ignored the various Bible passages using the exact phrase "Free Will

#159 | Posted by crispee_oc at 2009-08-16 03:14 PM | Reply | Flag

Show me one passage using the phrase "Free Will", and I'll apologize and STFU. If you can't do so, I would expect the same from you.

LOL---Show us a passage in the Bible using the word "determinism".

You choose what consequences you prefer. It's a conscious act. ZAT, for example, has chosen not to spend eternity with religous nuts. Well, if that's what he wants, that's what he'll get. It's about as simple as it gets.

You can choose the bumper cars, or you can choose the roller coaster. The roller coaster may make you throw up, but you can't argue later the vomit wasn't a result of free will.

Bob lies through his dentures, "I'll apologize and STFU."

You've promised to 'apologize' often if someone can show you 'proof,' but then simply deny that what is provided as such ... is the 'proof' you demanded!

In this case, if someone gave an example where 'free will' is alluded to, you will deny it because it isn't the two English words, exactly, and as you demand ... you are just that stupid an example of an intransigent leftist creep ...

If never hearing of Jesus means that you won't go to hell, why do we tell anyone about him?

Seems like evangelizing is doing the devil's work for him?

Silliness. The "free will" argument ebbs and wanes and depends on the flavor favored. If it was so clear there wouldn't be such division in Christianity.

"Why do we tell anyone about him....?"

I suppose this question makes sense if you don't believe in Hell, really.

Or if you don't believe in Jesus, really. It makes a lot of sense if you firmly think what you've experienced is all there is, and if you therfore also firmly believe there is no God powerful or wise enough to punish evil while protecting the innocent.

thanks for the ad hominem, zed.

It was a sincere question.

It was a sincere response. But I apologize if it bit you.

Hagbard Celine

Don't even try--he still won't get it.

In this case, if someone gave an example where 'free will' is alluded to, you will deny it because it isn't the two English words, exactly, and as you demand ... you are just that stupid an example of an intransigent leftist creep ...

#166 | Posted by tadowe at 2009-08-16 03:43 PM | Reply | Flag

I didn't demand anything. He said that exact phrase was in the bible. Pay attention little mind.

Seeing as you ignored the various Bible passages using the exact phrase "Free Will"

#159 | Posted by crispee_oc at 2009-08-16 03:14 PM | Reply | Flag

I just asked him to back up his loud mouth. It was his claim--not my demand. Kind of makes you look as stupid as you are doesn't it. Learn to read. It's FUNdamental.

Bob proves my point, "He said that exact phrase was in the bible."

He left out the word 'meaning' in preface to that. It is obvious from his quotes that that EXACT English two words ARE NOT present, but his meaning is clear:

There is NO FREE WILL in the bible, and since it is all pre-ordained, no choice, no free will ...

Your effort is to dispute that claim/point, by misdirecting that he simply left out a word, and that you can prey on that compositional mistake to make him the subject. You are just that obvious of an intransigent anti-religious leftist that you just happen to be, and which is the proof that you are stupid, not Crispee!

Var der harget, schmuck ...

You don't have to believe in God to believe in life after death. Especially a God based on the false stories from older discarded religions.

There is no heaven, there is no hell. Christians ignore the bible completely and make up their own stories much of the time. Few have ever read more than two pages. The bible describes Heaven on the first page. Yet Christians deny what it says, and make up their own version of Heaven.

Genesis
1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

1:7 And God made the firmament and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

The bible describes heaven as a three dimensional place---not some ethereal other dimension. Yet Christian deny this, and make heaven to be some sort of magic land you go to when you die. The explanation for this passage is easily understood when you know its origins.

The origins for that passage come from Enuma Elish, the first bible of mankind, and the bible from which the Christian bible is edited. EWnuma Elish is being studied by modern scholars as a source for the beginning of the solar system, just because of passages like hose above. In Enuma Elish this passage comes up during the creation of the planet and describes the collision that formed the asteroid belt, and the Earth, from a giant planet that used to orbit where the asteroid belt is now. Not until the space age did humanity realize that there was indeed, water above the asteroid belt and water below. Of course Christians make up their own version of what heaven is--the bible doesn't really count.

There is NO FREE WILL in the bible,

#175 | Posted by tadowe at 2009-08-16 04:23 PM | Reply | Flag

That has been my point all along dumbass. Are stupid pills expensive? Do you get them from a guy on a corner? You got your moneys worth.

How many time do I have to show your stupidity? You are getting boring. If you could read, you would be much more effective. As it is---you are just another ignorant fundy with no brains--no logic--and a heart full of hate. You need your own country. Wouldn't it be great to live in a country with all people like you and no people like me?

CalifChris

I am 100% sure. The bible is false---you can buy the books and stories it was edited from on Amazon.com, and the original stories make much more sense and are much better reading than its pale biblical counterpart.

What makes an entity a God. How about an entity that had the power to destroy all mankind with a thought? Would that be classified as a God? How about an entity that could create life? Would that be a God? Does the ability to create a Universe make an entity a God? What makes an entity a God.

"You don't have to believe in God to believe in life after death...."

One of the more interesting things about modern atheism is it's penchant for borrowing religous ideas.

Of course, I'm atill getting over the idea many atheists propose that there is, after all, a God.

So, what have we got here---Depending on what atheists you speak with---An afterlife, a God---But no free wiil.

Something tells me y'all will glom to free will sooner of later. It seems to be a trend.

"The Bible is false..."

I choose it over you. Frankly, you've never been a bit of help.

Well if Bob states he's 100 percent sure the Bible is false, then I'm betting on it be true!

After all, how much stock can you take in one who believes there's smoke stacks on the moon,...just to mention one thing he thinks is true.

Sorry Bob. But you haven't proven to be a reliable source of anything true.

But I have to say that your courage in thinking you are Godlike to be all knowing, stating for 100 percent fact the Bible is false, is amazing!!

You waste your insight here if you believe you know so much.

Bob replies, "That has been my point all along dumbass. Are stupid pills expensive?"

No, your point, used to misdirect, is that there IS 'free choice,' in your 'reality,' but that it is not so stated in the bible, as 'free will.'

Crispee argues directly in quoting where you are incorrect on both counts, but all you can try to do is quibble about it, to avoid his pointed discussion of healthcare issues.

You want to mock and revile, instead of discuss the issues directly, because your puppet masters don't have any more propaganda to dispense so you can cut&paste it again-and-again, ad nauseam.

I'm not a Christian but I can understand the abstraction of destiny, and 'free will' to choose the 'out' God provided.

He knows you won't choose, Bob ...

After all, how much stock can you take in one who believes there's smoke stacks on the moon,...just to mention one thing he thinks is true.

As usual, you don't know what you are talking about. I would bet your whole life has been that way. I say it looks like a smokestack, and so does the guy narrating the video. What I say it is, is something that looks like a smokestack, but probably isn't an actual smokestack--mainly because the ejecta was so quick. But tell me Lisa---since the Smokestack is such a foolish thing to believe in---what do you think it is? How about using your giant brain to explain to little me what that thing is, and what it is doing there. If I'm so dumb to believe that there is something on the moon that shouldn't be there, how about you explain what the video shows and what rational people think it is.

free will:This is left to the person himself (Nid. 16b). The first challenge to the concept of free will came from the sphere of theology itself, from the concept of ...

No, your point, used to misdirect, is that there IS 'free choice,' in your 'reality,' but that it is not so stated in the bible, as 'free will.'

#184 | Posted by tadowe at 2009-08-16 06:01 PM | Reply | Flag:

Link up dUmmy. Poste the quote I said that prompted such a delusional statement. My point has ALWAYS been---there is no such thing as Free Will given by God. Post any quote that I made that opposes that view. What a dumbfuck you are. But---you funny.

;-)

Your argument may hold water Bob, but it is far from being the last word, as you seem to think.

#186 | Posted by crispee_oc at 2009-08-16 06:21 PM | Reply | Flag:

It'll do till something better comes along. When you find it---let me know.

...am not afraid of facts.

posted by bOoB

LOL

"Everything I say is true...."

I guess a prophet is never respected in his own land, BOB.

"There is no free will given by God..."

Sorry, can't square this with the countless times God asks for the use of free will.

The Free Will described by the religious on this thread is nothing more than ordinary choice. There is nothing free about it. It could be said that God TRULY gives dogs Free Will, and gives Free Will to virtually every living organism on the planet EXCEPT for humans. A dog could kill a human, kill its pups, and eat them, and recieve no different reception on death than a dog who saved lives and never harmed anyone or anything. THAT'S Free Will. Humans just have choice.

It'll do till something better comes along. When you find it---let me know.

#188 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2009-08-16 06:23 PM |

So you simply ignored the link provided? Why? Because there are no hypotheticals to obfiscate the opinions in the link? Including generations of scholars?

Funny thing is, Bob would not recognize anything in the Bible. Yet he continues to ask for evidence from a source he doesn't accept as real.

"Explaining reality to you...."

What you do is explain BOB to us.

Sorry, can't square this with the countless times God asks for the use of free will.

#191 | Posted by Zed at 2009-08-16 06:30 PM | Reply | Flag

Tell me the difference between Free Will, and ordinary choice?

"Humans just have choice...."

You've chosen to be confused. It's all just words to you, BOB.

"What you do is explain BOB to us."

Why don't you explain this ridiculous concept of "God" to us?

What you do is explain BOB to us.

To understand BoOb you're going to need a rag and some paint thinner...

Why don't you explain this ridiculous concept of "God" to us?

To understand god, you're going to need either a bag of shrooms or the ability to believe in an utterly ridiculous concept without any evidence.

"Tell me the difference between free will and ordinary choice...."

The actor consciously originates the decision, making it true choice. Yes, BOB--Even amoebas can choose. But no one would argue it's in the same class. Except you, perhaps. I think this is where you get bogged down.

"To understand God...."

No one understands God. You know what God tells you of Himself. If you're waiting for understanding, you'll never accept.

Then again, you don't understand yourself. So I assume you place all that in the same category.

So you simply ignored the link provided? Why? Because there are no hypotheticals to obfiscate the opinions in the link? Including generations of scholars?

I didn't ignore the link---did you even read it? The link agrees with me.

2.The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will

Then again, you don't understand yourself. So I assume you place all that in the same category.

Presuming a little much, arent you?

"To understand god, you're going to need either a bag of shrooms or the ability to believe in an utterly ridiculous concept without any evidence."

So, former atheist Zed consumed some shrooms? Cool.

The actor consciously originates the decision, making it true choice.

It's impossible to know whether the actor consciously originated the decision or the actor was destined to feel as if he had done so.

The whole free will vs. destiny issue is a ridiculous waste of time. It won't change how you live you life.

Ah, BOB first defines the universe he likes THEN tells us what free will must be.

Your stuck in this reality, BOB. You can redefine tennis tomorrow, it you like, and for all teh good it will do.

"It won't change how you live your life...."

One vote for Destiny, there.

So, former atheist Zed consumed some shrooms? Cool.

He either had too many or not enough.

"It's impossible to know whether the actor consciously originated the decision..."

Existentially, or course. But you aren't talking science right now, Mr. Wizard. How this banal statement advances anything is beyond me.

Tell me the difference between free will and ordinary choice...."

The actor consciously originates the decision, making it true choice. Yes, BOB--Even amoebas can choose. But no one would argue it's in the same class. Except you, perhaps. I think this is where you get bogged down.

#200 | Posted by Zed at 2009-08-16 06:35 PM | Reply | Flag

MMBBEEEEEEEPPPPPP

Let's try again. You gave a for instance of CHOICE.

Tell me the difference between free will and ordinary choice...."

This time try an answer that starts out---Free Will means.............. and ends with a sentence that starts out---Ordinary choice means.

Too tough a task?

One vote for Destiny, there.

?

I'm speaking from experience zed.

The number of things you can't know existentially is infinite. However, I've never seen that stop a materialist from making all manner of very flat statements concerning everything.

"I'm speaking from experience...."

So do I, my friend.

Your stuck in this reality, BOB. You can redefine tennis tomorrow, it you like, and for all teh good it will do.

#206 | Posted by Zed at 2009-08-16 06:41 PM | Reply | Flag

I'm asking for YOUR definitions---get it?

What is your definition of Free Will that differs from ordinary choice?

"Too tough a task..."

Maybe it is. I know this has been attempted with you countless times. But here's another go....

Free will allows the creation of something new not specified by mechanistic cause and effect.

Sure, variables are taken into consideration....Now consider that phrase---"Variables are taken into consideration".

Existentially, or course. But you aren't talking science right now, Mr. Wizard. How this banal statement advances anything is beyond me.

The point is that it doesn't advance anything. You have no way of answering the free will vs. destiny issue for precisely the reason I mentioned (and you accepted). "Destiny" allows for the potential that you are destined to believe you have free will... the whole issue is worthless. It is the destiny vs. free will argument that doesn't advance anything.

"You have no way of answering the free will versus destiny issue...."

Not philosophically. But that's not where I'm coming from, as you know.

"It's the desiny versus free will argument hat doesn't advance anything..."

It's important just for this reason---Many people, considering there is no freedom of will, choose to give up.

Just this simple paradox guts radical determinism.

There's free will, ZOMBIE, because God has been good enough to create it and make it's nature plain to everyone.

You aren't a rock or a droplet of water. be thankful.

Not philosophically. But that's not where I'm coming from, as you know.

Not philosophically, not empirically, not any way...

It's important just for this reason---Many people, considering there is no freedom of will, choose to give up.

I'm sure they do. People choose to believe in a lot of irrational hogwash. I'm inclined not to waste time on this or other similar issues and get on with my life.

"Not empirically in any way...."

It was you that defined the question as being beyond empiricism. Any additional thoughts you have on the matter are your religion.

"Get on with my life..."

Ah, yes---Well, I'm sure you have no choice but to do so. LOL.

Speaking of which...Destiny calls me away---To rob a bank or make a peach cobbler...I guess I'll just have to see which.

Free will is an illusion; a post-hoc confabulation.

The crew jump in to help Bob misdirect the healthcare commentary, by discussing the intangible and unknown ... as if they knew ...

Of course Bob, and whatever opposition there might be, are gratified that the main issues have been obfuscated.

In my opinion, all of it is illusion, and the most abused by that are the Democrats who try to misdirect 'it' back-and-forth to satisfy their imaginary, infantile ideology ...

I didn't ignore the link---did you even read it? The link agrees with me.

#202 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2009-08-16 06:38 PM

Then you ignored this in your haste to be right. Do I need to link the definition of "hold water"?

Your argument may hold water Bob...
186 | Posted by crispee_oc at 2009-08-16 06:21 PM |

I think this was the telling post by you Bob. Yet you continue to want proof of specific words. Why?

I am 100% sure. The bible is false---you can buy the books and stories it was edited from on Amazon.com, and the original stories make much more sense and are much better reading than its pale biblical counterpart.

#180 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob at 2009-08-16 05:18 PM

"God has been good enough to create it and make it's nature plain to everyone."

Certainly hasn't made it clear to non-theists. Maybe he just isn't very good at making things "plain to everyone".

There's free will, ZOMBIE, because God has been good enough to create it and make it's nature plain to everyone.

I'll agree that there is at least the appearance of free will. Reality, at its most basic level, is not deterministic. Systems like the human brain are currently far too complex to analyze in terms of discrete components that interact deterministicaly.

God is irrelevant to the issue. If you feel that you have to introduce an untenable concept like god in order to make "free will" more realistic, be my guest. I don't need boogeymen and flying monkeys to come to a similar conclusion. I differ from you in thinking that the whole issue of free will vs. destiny is pointless... as pointless as Krishna vs. Quetzalcotl.

You aren't a rock or a droplet of water. be thankful.

I wouldn't be a rock or a droplet of water since I exist as a sentient being solely because of my human nervous system. Who knows... chimps and dolphins might be self-aware too. The point is, I am a self aware human because if I were a rock, I wouldn't have a nervous system that would allow "me" to contemplate the issue. "I" wouldn't exist. Anthropic principle-ish.

Ah, yes---Well, I'm sure you have no choice but to do so. LOL.

Zed, I think you're rather confused. I am not a proponent of destiny. Perhaps your strawman is.

I don't fritter away the hours worrying about this issue because it's inherently untestable and unproductive.

FREE WILL:
1.The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.

CHOICE:
1.The act of choosing; selection.
2.The power, right, or liberty to choose; option.
3.One that is chosen.
4.A number or variety from which to choose: a wide choice of styles and colors.
5.The best or most preferable part.
6.Care in choosing.
7.An alternative.

Now you tell us Bob what the is fucking difference? Hence the semantics quip earlier.

The substrate of brain gives rise to the mind; of course, we know this by observing individuals with lesions or other organic damage. So much for dualism. With its billions and billions of neurons and trillions of interconnections, the human brain is the most fantastically complex product of biology presently known; however, that doesn't mean there's some magical or otherwise supernatural force at work - it's still all amenable to physics, chemistry, biology, all the way up the hierarchy, despite the fact that we don't have a perfect knowledge of any of the above presently.

Exactly.

We don't know enough about the brain to reduce human behavior to something deterministic. The interactions are likely large-scale enough that quantum mechanical uncertainties can be neglected but the complexity of the brain is still daunting. We certainly feel as if we have free will. If in reality we do not... it is a consequence of our nature as complex organic machines.

This is fundamentally different than an argument regarding a deity that "grants" us free will or imposes his "will" upon us.

#229 | Posted by crispee_oc at 2009-08-16 07:13 PM | Reply | Flag

There is absolutely no difference in the definitions you posted--except one calls it Free Will. Hence---to say Free Choice is a misdirection from common CHOICE. The religious use Free Choice as some special gift from God, yet it is clear that there is nothing Free about it, and not a bit different than ordinary choice---as your post shows.

1.The ability or discretion to choose;
1.The act of choosing; selection.

free choice:
2.The power, right, or liberty to choose; option.

There is no difference---that is my point. To say God gave us Free Will, like it is something special or some big deal--like it was something we didn't ALREADY HAVE.

Now you tell us Bob what the is fucking difference? Hence the semantics quip earlier.

How a man can believe in a fake moon landing but can't have the faith to believe in God just goes to show you how ridiculous the concept of god is. And what a moron that man is.

Null may be self-blinded, "I thought all you 'liberals' had been convinced by the God Algorithm!

???

I didn't say that.

chimps and dolphins might be self-aware too.

I'm certain dolphins are. It sounds odd and even 'new agish', but I swear you can see it in their eyes when they get up close to the rig and make deliberate eye contact.

I'm certain dolphins are. It sounds odd and even 'new agish', but I swear you can see it in their eyes when they get up close to the rig and make deliberate eye contact.

Yeah, they're pretty cool... maybe they've evolved from the former occupants of atlantis.

Yeah, they're pretty cool...

When they come around the rig, they'll stay for two or three days. There's usually three or four independent groups of 5 or so. These independent groups are usually on opposite sides of the rig for some reason. They'll be swimming along idly, but when they know they are being watched, one of those groups will start 'performing', as in all five leaping out of the water abreast simultaneously, or 'porpoising' single file in a large circle. I've only ever seen this when they know they are being watched.

The most common kind we see doesn't look like Flipper. It's larger and has 3 or 5 longitudinal dark stripes down its back. I have no idea what kind this is.

LOL

I know Bob.

You ask for links, I put up actual verses to prove that God gave us free will so now the Bible is false, I don't know what I'm talking about ...blah, blah, blah...LOL.

Besides being all knowing, you are also very predictable.

Is there a lot of sharks? I wonder if the sharks would be a good disposal method?

Zombiehunter

There is evidence than man did not land on the moon and there is evidence that he did make it to the moon. If it were before a jury, I think reasonable doubt could certainly be a factor.

They recently released photos of the landing site with the landers visible, and astronaut footprints that you could see from space.

http://www.nasa.gov/ mission_pages/LRO/multimedia/ lroimages/apollosites.html

But where were the lunar rovers, and where were the rover tracks. The rover wheels were nine inches wide and the tracks would have been continuous---which would seem to make them easier to see from space. They made a big deal as to how long the shadows were for the landers---there should have been some shadows for those rovers too.

Null says, "Certainly hasn't made it clear to non-theists. Maybe he just isn't very good at making things 'plain to everyone'."

There is evidence than man did not land on the moon

That is a logical impossibility. But of course you eschew logic just as you do basic laws of phyics and simple mathematics when presented to you in a debate.

If it were before a jury, I think reasonable doubt could certainly be a factor.

I don't think they could find 11 other jurors as loony as you, so at best it would be a hung jury with you as the holdout.

#241 | Posted by tadowe at 2009-08-16 07:44 PM

Don't fabricate quotes from me, fool.

There is evidence than man did not land on the moon and there is evidence that he did make it to the moon. If it were before a jury, I think reasonable doubt could certainly be a factor.

A jury of idiots saw reasonable doubt in the OJ trial... doesn't mean that the man isn't a murdering bastard.

LOL

I know Bob.

I'm sorry, Lisa.

#245

LOL

You know, Zombie...we rarely agree on anything but you sure make me giggle!!

I'm glad you're here!!

You ask for links, I put up actual verses to prove that God gave us free will so now the Bible is false, I don't know what I'm talking about ...blah, blah, blah...LOL.

Besides being all knowing, you are also very predictable.

#238 | Posted by Lisa at 2009-08-16 07:39 PM | Reply | Flag:

You put up nonsense links that had nothing to do with Free Will. They described simple choice---options. Nothing about Free Will.

But I must have missed your explanation as to what was in that link about the Smokestack---you aren't running from reality again are you?

While you are at it, see if you can explain the difference between Free Will---and ordinary choice. That question seems to have fried the minds of those who think there is a difference. Listen to THIS BS posted by Zed.

Free will allows the creation of something new not specified by mechanistic cause and effect.

#215 | Posted by Zed at 2009-08-16 06:47 PM | Reply | Flag

And even THEN he failed to contrast his mindless rant with the concept of ordinary CHOICE

But yours is just as weak.

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to us, NOT WILLING that any should perish but that all should come to repentance"
2Pet 3:9

"Enter ye in at the strait gate for wide is the gate and broad is the path that leads to destruction and MANY THERE BE WHICH GO IN THEREAT.
Mat 7:13

The best you can get out of that is ordinary choice. Nothing special about that. Mat 7:13 says it is easy to go to hell, and that seems OK with Jesus. Sounds like a compassionate conservative.

I could see a nasty revenge scenario on the rig. Somebody gets stabbed and tossed to the sharks.

LOL

Whatever you say Bob. LOL

It's not worth dicussing anything with you because as I see now, just as I've read you past conversations...you are always right, everyone else is wrong no matter what the subject matter.

As for responding to your smoke stack link...I've followed every conversation you had with others, looked at all your links that have been put up, but again...it does no good to disagree with you. Then I would be called names, I know nothing...you know everything and you would end up claiming victory so....you're right Bob.

There...that saves us a whole lot of wasted time, doesn't it??

I could see a nasty revenge scenario on the rig. Somebody gets stabbed and tossed to the sharks.

There are not vengeful people on my rig. Besides, knives are not allowed on board except in the galley

Lisa

Absolutely. You got nothing and admit it. Anybody who looks at your bible quotes and thinks they have anything to do with Free Will would probably be unable to form any kind of rational response to the smokestack on the moon. oh wait....

LMBO

Did I call it or what???

Sad but predictable, yet has a comical twist to it!

Lisa

And your name calling tops it off. Very Christian of you, and you wear your smugness well. Too bad you don't have the logic to back your thoughts.

ZARATHUSTRA, of course, in making the argument against free will, makes the argument against creativity.

But, to the exent he believes there is no free will, he should have the courage to model society based on his conviction.

Therefore, if and when struck comatose or dead by a drunk or simple angry driver, as one example---There should be no trial of the criminal who harmed him.

Indeed, the very word "criminal" becomes redundant. He couldn't help hitting ZARATHUSTRA any more than ZARATHUSTRA couldn't help not getting out of the way.

So much for "victims", too, then.

"But then look at this nonsense posted by ZED...."

It's OK, BOB. You can't help but insult me, deterministically speaking. It's a choice, but you didn't make it.

We understand, because we are compelled to. That is, untill we are complelled not to understand.

I do have the essence of this argument down, do I not? Gee, I hope random forces gets someone to praise science again soon.

I've never seen a group of people more eager to kill off the concept of higher order thought.

You may as well be oysters, from your own point of view.

Goat a screwdriver or a sharpened piece of metal could be used. Political debates could lead to violence at a seconds notice. After a few weeks at sea men become like caged animals.

Just as you see conspiracies that aren't there, you claim I called you a name.

I pointed out two of your characteristics...you think you know all and your predictabilituy. Hardly name calling. But, if it makes you feel better believe what you want.

My conscience is clear.

Political debates could lead to violence at a seconds notice.

Most every one here is very right wing and agree on everything politically. There are no debates except for what kind of rope to use when hanging a democrat.

After a few weeks at sea men become like caged animals.

Must be true. We hear of dozens of stabbings and act of violence every week of from men at sea.

Goat you said most not all. I guess not everyone on the rig isn't an uneducated dumbass.

I guess not everyone on the rig isn't an uneducated dumbass.

No. Only one or two percent of them are uneducated dumbasses. They clean the floors and make our beds and wash our clothes.

I have a masters degree. It's doubtful many working the rig except for mgmt have my level of education. Oh btw I interview for a mgmt position next week. If I get it our pay will be equal.

"I exist as a sentient being because of my human nervous system...."

I thought a lot about this statement. The balance of your beliefs doesn't support this conviction. You aren't the one arguing for sentience. That would be me.

It's doubtful many working the rig except for mgmt have my level of education.

You are right. I don't think any have a master's degree.

Oh btw I interview for a mgmt position next week. If I get it our pay will be equal.

Good luck. I hope you get the job.

"I live my life according to the Bible.."

You mean like killing non-virginal brides (Deuteronomy 22:20,21), disobedient sons (Deuteronomy 21:18-21) and homosexuals (Leviticus 20:13)?

You are one scary dude.

America's health care system is expensive and underperforming compared to many other countries. We get less than we pay for. I can't believe the right wing has scared up so many people fighting for a broken system.

#6 | Posted by rcade

I hate blanket statements like this to describe a major problem in this country.

It's not helping!

This is not considering that the countries listed have a much better diet than in the US. More importantly, there is much more alcohol abuse in the US than these other countries.

"More importantly, there is much more alcohol abuse in the US than these other countries."

YOu say that but I sort of seriously doubt that it is true.
How about a link???

"Starving" suggests pain. She felt none.-Danforth

How in the hell do you know if she felt pain or not? Because the doctors said so? I'm gonna let you in on a little secret, Danforth. Doctors are not always right and no one in this world knows whether Terry felt pain or not when she was being starved to death. You say that the word starving denotes pain. I think that you just don't want to admit the simple truth of the matter. That she was starved to death.

Her cortex - which is responsible for producing the autobiographical "self",

#59 | Posted by Zarathustra

I have news for you. No one knows where the "self" or the "I" comes from. Your statement reads like it is fact and it is not. One of the many theories of where the self originates is in the cortex.

#255 | Posted by Zed at 2009-08-16 09:27 PM | Reply | Flag:

Zed--you write a bunch of horseshit--get busted for it---and then whine about it.

Facts are there is absolutely no difference beteween Free Will--and regular choice as offered by the bible.

The definition of Free Will---is a choice without repercussions from the person offering the choice. If there are repercussions to a given choice---the choice is not free. That you dispute this logic with this meaningless sentence showes just how full of shit you are.

Free will allows the creation of something new not specified by mechanistic cause and effect

#215 | Posted by Zed at 2009-08-16 06:47 PM | Reply | Flag

What a load of horse shit.

But LEG... rewards and punishments ARE consequences... results.

#133 | Posted by OohRah

No.. rewards and punishments are human perceived constructs. One mans reward could be another persons punishment. A consequence..depletion of the water table or use of all of the existing oil are considered results of actions.

Take a Logic class.

That she was starved to death.

#271 | Posted by everlong at 2009-08-17 12:08 PM | Reply | Flag:

Only because people like you would prevent a simple needle. She felt no pain.

Do you think Trei Schiavo was starved to death---or was just her body involved? Do you think you are your body? When you die---will they put you in a coffin, or just your body? Will you be a corpse one day? There was absolutely no difference as far as awareness goes between Teri Schiavo and a corpse. Teri Schiavo died long before she starved to death, and keeping a the husk of a human shell "alive" is cruelty beyond imagination.

And proof positive: Rex is a lying scum.

#80 | Posted by Danforth

I think that it is more proof positive that this place is full of crazy people who are actually dangerous and should be prosecuted.

"More importantly, there is much more alcohol abuse in the US than these other countries."

YOu say that but I sort of seriously doubt that it is true.
How about a link???

#270 | Posted by danni

No, the point is that the article does not into consideration anything else that affects longevity.

Just healthcare.

This is bullshit!

There are so many things that affect longevity other than simply health care.

How convient to make a simple argument without considering the real problems.

How convient to make a simple argument without considering the real problems.

#277 | Posted by Eddie at 2009-08-17 12:25 PM | Reply | Flag

How convenient to talk out your ass with no substantiation of your bullshit.

Typical Idiot Lib spin.

"It's true that the United States spends more on health care than anyone else, and it's true that we rank below a lot of other advanced countries in life expectancy. One big reason our life expectancy lags is that Americans have an unusual tendency to perish in homicides or accidents. We are 12 times more likely than the Japanese to be murdered and nearly twice as likely to be killed in auto wrecks. In their 2006 book, "The Business of Health," economists Robert L. Ohsfeldt and John E. Schneider set out to determine where the U.S. would rank in life span among developed nations if homicides and accidents are factored out. Their answer? First place" Author at Townhall site wrotwe this. not sure his name to give credit. sorry.

#279 | Posted by phuckn_libtards at 2009-08-17 01:07 PM | Reply | Fla

"phuckn_libtards"

Well that's a good handle. I guess it's okay then to create a handle "rtards_are_cocksuckers."

Well that's a good handle. I guess it's okay then to create a handle "rtards_are_cocksuckers."

#281 | Posted by nullifidian at 2009-08-17 01:17 PM | Reply

That one is already taken by the retard formerly known as BL2.

"More importantly, there is much more alcohol abuse in the US than these other countries."

YOu say that but I sort of seriously doubt that it is true.
How about a link???

#270 | Posted by danni

"Not to mention tobacco."

Europeans smoke more than Americans.

"Not to mention tobacco."

Europeans smoke more than Americans.

Really? I bet Asians smoke more than Europeans. What's your point?

Tomacco!

"What's your point?"

My point is that you have no point. If Europeans smoke more than Americans, you can't use "tobacco" as a talking point to prove that American healthcare is superior to European healthcare. That doesn't make any sense, like most of your posts.

"My point is that you have no point. If Europeans smoke more than Americans, you can't use "tobacco" as a talking point to prove that American healthcare is superior to European healthcare. That doesn't make any sense, like most of your posts."

Of course it doesn't little nulli. I love how the inclusion of "tobacco" is some sort of talking point stretched into a position that I am trying to prove European is beter or worse than Amercias. Funny you were whining just last night about being given a position you claim was false.

Just curious how the rest of my non sense making post was pointless as well? You couldn't be stupid enough to believe alcohol, drugs and tobacco cause premature death now would you? It also would seem quite silly ignoring those lifestyles which Amercians seem to dominate when it comes to abuse.

"What's your point?"

My point is that you have no point. If Europeans smoke more than Americans, you can't use "tobacco" as a talking point to prove that American healthcare is superior to European healthcare. That doesn't make any sense, like most of your posts.

#287 | Posted by nullifidian

Null is using my logic. Hmmmmmm.

So, you finally start seeing the light even if it is subconscious.

How convient to make a simple argument without considering the real problems.

#277 | Posted by Eddie at 2009-08-17 12:25 PM | Reply | Flag

How convenient to talk out your ass with no substantiation of your bullshit.

#278 | Posted by Buffalo_Bob

Wow BoOb,

You shut me down, man.

LOL!!!!

So American Health Care costs more and provides less..??

No wonder RepuliTards have been brain mucked to want to change nothing and stay the upward course - it over rewards the wealthy!!

The RepubliTarded Nutjobs can actually get physically angry at the dare thought of "bureaucrats" controlling their health care and making decisions for them!
(despite the pesky reality the Bill is exactly not that)

Well, unless those bureaucrats are fat, rich, wealthy leaders of the Insurance industries - then they can regulate and decide coverages all the way to the Bank designed for increasing mass record profits..!!

Cause that's what the fat, rich minions who are paid-to-program lies in favor of the fat, rich bastards want you to believe

- and you suck their worms whole like hungry baby brained birdies in a nest!

So Republitarded and yet so near! - DRB

If we as Christians are wrong, we have lived a life of kindness, loving others, helping others, having patience, forgiveness, experiencing peace like non other.

I will die knowing I was the best person I could be.

By your post alone with the name calling, the anger, the hatred...you can not claim the same.

And if you are wrong....you will regret your decision.

It's laughable to me that people claim without reservation that God does not exist when they have not died to have proof positive of their claims, but then insult those of faith.

I wonder how you would explain the countless people who have had life after death experiences.

I suppose you would sum them up as crazy too.

The choice is yours to believe or not. It's always been yours.

#135 | Posted by Lisa

Most xtians are such in name only.. In my business the only ones to screw me out of money were so called "good xtians" and they wrote bad checks.

Its not hatred but scorn for the hypocrisy and condescension.

"If" I am wrong then so be it. As Twain said you go to heaven for the climate and hell for the company.

Its laughable to me that people can actually claim that a fantasy land exists beyond the current reality where you never age, get sick and wear robes 24/7 for eternity.. some would call that hell.
(see condescension in previous reply)

After life experience has been researched and it is a physical change in the brain chemistry which changes your "hard drive" due to lack of oxygen nutrients and hormones. They aren't crazy.. just high.

It will always be my choice.

Really? I bet Asians smoke more than Europeans. What's your point?

#285 | Posted by crispee_oc

Its true.. Americans don't exercise and eat way too much fucking food.