Well, it seems to me that the so-called "mob" is being heard. I hope they drop the public option now so we can get to serious health care reform.

"Senator Chuck Grassley of Iowa, top Republican on the Senate Finance Committee, said in a statement Thursday that the provision had been dropped from consideration because it could be misinterpreted or implemented incorrectly."

I hope he thoroughly chastised his colleague, Senator Johnny Isakson (R-GA) who wrote the provision and offered it in the first place.

That was awfully nice of them. We get to keep grandma and they get their 8 gulfstream jets.

A victory for the demagogues and the stupid.

Here's to the provision makes it into the final bill.

"We bought the lie, we spread the lie, we got our way."

- Ish and Murphy Kabibble

yea.. now the elderly are going to go bankrupt instead cause they have to pay to talk to the doctors now out of their own pockets.

yay to going full retard.

Full retard, how compassionate of you.

A victory for the demagogues and the stupid.

#4 | Posted by YAV

What a sore loser, emphasis on loser.

#7 | Posted by klifferd

Medicare

What a sore loser, emphasis on loser.

#9 | POSTED BY MEMBER2586 AT 2009-08-14 10:30 AM | REPLY | FLAG: Happy member of the Idiocracy.

"But it has electrolytes!"

If I knew how to do it, I would print out bumper stickers that read: "Proud Member of the Righ-Wing Mob."

Well there goes 18 pages out of the bill.

Now for the remaining 1000.

18 pages at a time is too slow.

Where can I get the bumper sticker Member?

I don't know Murphy, I don't know how to make theim, I wish someone would so we can buy them.

Wow, creating a Forum where Family Members can Discuses and Get Guidance on End of Life decisions with their Physician --- and Physicians can Get Paid for Providing this Useful Information!?

How Dumb! What a Dumb Thing to Plan for (Doink)!? Like that's Ever Going to Happen to Us (terminal illness)!

Sincerely

The "right" wing Moron Mob

Obama assured all his followers that there were no "death panels" in the bill. If that was true why did they have to take them out of the bill? Did Barry LIE AGAIN???

"The Right Wing Moron Mob...."

Well, at least now we know another thing they're frightened of---Maniacal therapists manipulating old folks into euthanasia.

It must be pretty uncomfortable to be so uncertain of other people.

"Why did they take them out of the bill...."

Case in point, sort of- a willful or just painfully stupid twisting of language causes someone to humor a few freaks and the freaks jump on the humoring as proof they were right.

a willful or just painfully stupid twisting of language causes someone to humor a few freaks and the freaks jump on the humoring as proof they were right.
#18 | Posted by Zed

Concise Flag.

When my father in law was near his death his primary doctor had this very conversation with him, my wife (his child) and I. After that discussion we realized that he was very near death and decided to bring him home. My father-in-law at that time expressed his desire to not go back into the hospital and to pass at home in a familiar loving surrounding using hospice care.

Two days later he lost his battle with COPD and passed. But he passed at home and not in a hospital. He got to spend his last hours with his family and not hospital staff. At home, his home, his pride and joy.

Those of you out there who have used this compassionate reasoned provision to claim there are death panels have no clue what you are talking about and should remember you WILL be having this conversation with your doctor or you children will be. Only now you will pay for it...

No no no no noooooo! YOU MUST DIE HOOKED UP TO A MACHINE! Clinging to that last electronic pulse that makes your heart beat. The system needs that last $30k out of you before your family can spend the final $20K or so on your funeral.

It's the AMERICAN way.

#20 | Posted by Prolix247

Very well said.

The end of life stuff is a distraction.. let's concentrate on keeping the government from taking over medicine.. that's a more worthy goal.

Oh, Those Death Panels

Posted by Amy Sullivan Thursday, August 13, 2009

You would think that if Republicans wanted to totally mischaracterize a health care provision and demagogue it like nobody's business, they would at least pick something that the vast majority of them hadn't already voted for just a few years earlier. Because that's not just shameless, it's stupid.

Yes, that's right. Remember the 2003 Medicare prescription drug bill, the one that passed with the votes of 204 GOP House members and 42 GOP Senators? Anyone want to guess what it provided funding for? Did you say counseling for end-of-life issues and care? Ding ding ding!!

Let's go to the bill text, shall we? "The covered services are: evaluating the beneficiary's need for pain and symptom management, including the individual's need for hospice care; counseling the beneficiary with respect to end-of-life issues and care options, and advising the beneficiary regarding advanced care planning." The only difference between the 2003 provision and the infamous Section 1233 that threatens the very future and moral sanctity of the Republic is that the first applied only to terminally ill patients. Section 1233 would expand funding so that people could voluntarily receive counseling before they become terminally ill.

So either Republicans were for death panels in 2003 before turning against them now--or they're lying about end-of-life counseling in order to frighten the bejeezus out of their fellow citizens and defeat health reform by any means necessary. Which is it, Mr. Grassley ("Yea," 2003)?

One thing about the health care issue is that I cannot recall hearing from the religious community to any extent.

As an atheist I would ask why is not the concept of the question "Am I my brothers keeper?" brought up?

As an atheist I would ask why is the concept of the good Samaritan not brought out?

As an atheist I would ask why is not the story of the loaves and fishes of feeding a large crowd with only a few loaves of bread and a few fishes raised? That is, as giving to all no matter how few your resources?

In this regard I am reminded of a quote from Gandhi who said "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.".

To me as an atheist the moral position is universal health care for all.

To me as an atheist it is immoral to profit from health care issues. It is immoral to deny coverage due to preexisting conditions.

Finally it is particularly interesting to me that the Republican party which is said to be dominated by what is known as the "religious (christian) right" is apparently against these supposed christian concepts as applied to universal health care for all. And these Republicans present a narrow stingy attitude of "I got mine and let those who do not have health care or are denied coverage to "let them eat cake!".

As an atheist I do not think these (religious right) are necessarily bad or immoral people. They just are not thinking of health care, as they should put it, as I understand those perspectives via Christianity, as a 'values issue'.

=====
As an atheist...

the dark side: anger, fear, aggression.

fosters ignorance.
fosters control.
fosters enslavement.

the dark side = evil.
========

If you check out early does the Dr get a little somthing extra in his paycheck at the end of the month for saving the system all those bucks for end-of-life treatment?

The elderly will not be informed by doctors about issues they face at the end of their lives! Hooray for ignorance!

The elderly will not be informed by doctors about issues they face at the end of their lives! Hooray for ignorance!

#27 | Posted by rcade

Well that cinches it then! Our elderly will now live forever, thanks to the GOP.

Huzzah!

Believe it or not the bill, if and when one is actually passed, is not written in stone. From the first day it goes into effect Congress will begin considering changes to it. Within a few years it will be nearly unrecognizable from its original version. This is all a smoke screen, so that we don't look over there....and see HB 676...Medicare for all. Simpler, cheaper, better, doctors' prefer it because they don't get jerked around by insurance company thieves....what is the question here????

Do we really want to continue giving away 30% of our health care dollars to greedy corporate CEOs, literally making millions and millions as they deny our claims, drop us if we get sick and rip us off on the price.

9 out of 10 right wingers agree, Jesus prefers ignorant sheep.

Our healthcare in the US is great! What needs tweeking is the insurance part of it.

Why can't it be run more like auto insurance?

Why can't you pick the coverage you think you need and the price be based on that?

Why can't your premiums be based on your healthcare record? Lots of visits to the doctors office, higher cost insurance.

Why don't paitents have to pay a co-pay for every visit to the doctor?

Why do state borders have anything to do with who I get insurance from?

One size insurance package doesn't fit all. I don't need maternity coverage.

I for one am quite happy this portion of the bill was removed. Pay doctors to help you fill out Living Will forms? HA! Now they can pay me my $300 an hour rate to do it. The elderly and Medicare would have saved millions. Good work, nutjobs. I owe you one.

Wow, creating a Forum where Family Members can Discuses and Get Guidance on End of Life decisions with their Physician --- and Physicians can Get Paid for Providing this Useful Information!?

How Dumb! What a Dumb Thing to Plan for (Doink)!? Like that's Ever Going to Happen to Us (terminal illness)!

Sincerely

The "right" wing Moron Mob

#15 | Posted by Redneckville

Please, please tell me how it is that a doctor is the one who is qualified to discuss end of life issues with the dying person? I would love to know how you arrive at that wonderful belief. A doctor specializes in treating patients and most of them do not give real personal attention to each of their patients. And now we are supposed to rely on them for advice on how to die? Please tell me how this makes sense?

Well, it seems to me that the so-called "mob" is being heard.

Alright, we won round 1. It doesn't matter that we did it with lies and distortions! WE WON!

-"the so-called mob"

The elderly will not be informed by doctors about issues they face at the end of their lives! Hooray for ignorance!

Posted by rcade at 2009-08-14 02:17 PM | Reply

Dear Sir,

Congratulations!

Your above application for Membership in the GNOP has been accepted!

Hurry and get to the Party website to order your Birther to Death Panel Talking Points Program, Fictional Health Care Bill, and antibiotic Shouting Formula cough syrup.

We welcome you to the Party of Nyet!

...your Birther to Death Panel Talking Points Program

#35 | Posted by Cork

LMAO!

"Please tell me how this makes sense?"

Who else can describe for you what the final stages of a terminal illness will be like for you, what drugs you will be on, what possible treatments are available and what is the liklihood that they could actually save you. You family too will need to know what to expect, they need to discuss with you what your wishes are should you become comatose, do you want to live vegetatively or do you want them to have artificial life support removed. It is actually an important discussion everyone should have and having professional advice and information is really the only way to make it possible for you to make informed choices. They get paid for their time, the bill would provide that time for you and your family. Terrible thing...right???

Do we really want to continue giving away 30% of our health care dollars to greedy corporate CEOs, literally making millions and millions as they deny our claims, drop us if we get sick and rip us off on the price.

#29 | Posted by danni at 2009-08-14 02:20 PM

--Democrats supporting the current health bill

In regards to this provision being taken out and the debate surrounding it: I don't even want to be called a conservative anymore. Absolutely fucking pathetic.

yay to going full retard.

#7 | Posted by klifferd

Check it out. Dustin Hoffman, 'Rain Man,' look retarded, act retarded, not retarded. Counted toothpicks, cheated cards. Autistic, sho'. Not retarded. You know Tom Hanks, 'Forrest Gump.' Slow, yes. Retarded, maybe. Braces on his legs. But he charmed the pants off Nixon and won a ping-pong competition. That ain't retarded. Peter Sellers, "Being There." Infantile, yes. Retarded, no. You went full retard, man. Never go full retard. You don't buy that? Ask Sean Penn, 2001, "I Am Sam." Remember? Went full retard, went home empty handed...

Kirk Lazarus

Sarah Palin 1, Democrats 0

Hooray for ignorance!

Posted by rcade at 2009-08-14 02:17 PM | Reply

Would you expect anything else from the Party of Palin?

Our healthcare in the US is great!

#31 | Posted by Sniper at 2009-08-14 02:22 PM | Reply

Likes being #37.

Please, please tell me how it is that a doctor is the one who is qualified to discuss end of life issues with the dying person? I would love to know how you arrive at that wonderful belief. A doctor specializes in treating patients and most of them do not give real personal attention to each of their patients. And now we are supposed to rely on them for advice on how to die?

Holy shit what a stupid comment.

They aren't giving you advice on "how to die." They're going to tell you what the likely course of events would be. What they could do for you and what potential options are. Who exactly do you think IS more qualified to tell patients these things?

Also, as to your contention that doctors are specialized to treat patients-while that's not entirely untrue, there are many who go on to work in the field of medical ethics and who DON'T continue to see patients.

Last year my wife's grandmother had a stroke and the Dr.s thought she was going to be in a persistent vegetative state. My father-in-law sat through hours of meetings with Dr.s, both his mother's primary care physicians AND ethicists, to discuss options and what potential outcomes could be. So yes, these discussions DO happen and NEED to happen. It's a shame most people fail to see or admit this.

#41 | POSTED BY MYSTERYTOY

#34

Holy shit what a stupid comment.

#44 | Posted by jpw at 2009-08-14 02:46 PM

Some of us are likely going to get stuck on this crappy insurance and right wingers are trying their damnedness to make it even crappier. Bunch of fucking tards.

The only thing that was done was now the people won't be reimbursed for end-of-life counseling such as preparation of ones Will.

Nice work shit-heaps!

Obama assured all his followers that there were no "death panels" in the bill. If that was true why did they have to take them out of the bill? Did Barry LIE AGAIN???

#16 | Posted by fwthom at 2009-08-14 01:48 PM | Reply | Flag:

It was done so fucktards (like yourself) who can't read a simple provision will feel all good about denying care.

This gives me chills! I'm watching over my shoulder.

The only thing that was done was now the people won't be reimbursed for end-of-life counseling such as preparation of ones Will.

Nice work shit-heaps!

#48 | Posted by COMMONSENSE

Good 'ole Commonsense the freeloader. Always looking for a handout!

Nice work shit-heaps!

#48 | Posted by COMMONSENSE at 2009-08-14 03:10 PM

" Always looking for a handout!"

You must be talking about rtard leeches who want trillion dollar wars and trillion dollar tax cuts simultaneously.

Some of us are likely going to get stuck on this crappy insurance and right wingers are trying their damnedness to make it even crappier. Bunch of fucking tards.

#47 | POSTED BY LIVE_OR_DIE AT 2009-08-14 02:58 PM | REPLY | FLAG:

Great name for this discussion.

Oh yeah, and I agree with you.

Do we really want to continue giving away 30% of our health care dollars to greedy corporate CEOs, literally making millions and millions as they deny our claims, drop us if we get sick and rip us off on the price.

on behalf of the CEOs.........thanks.

Oh yeah, and I agree with you.

#54 | Posted by YAV at 2009-08-14 03:26 PM

This is pure bull shit, all so partisan republicans can play out their little revenge game on Democrats.

Well said.

This has been nothing more for some than a chance to stick it to Obama.

I have to laugh and everyone that screams "read the bill" and then talks about the "death panels" in it.

"A doctor specializes in treating patients and most of them do not give real personal attention to each of their patients"

Yup, and do you know why?

Because Insurance doesn't Cover that as a Service!

Anyway, I guess it makes more sense to you to discuses these Options with your Attorney ------- than with your Physician.

Is that what you Want --- an Attorney Between You and Your final dose of Healthcare?

Like I have said --- Some of You Deserve what You are Gonna Get.

This gives me chills! I'm watching over my shoulder.

Because you're afraid the government might offer you optional health insurance?

"A doctor specializes in treating patients and most of them do not give real personal attention to each of their patients"

Yup, and do you know why?

Because Insurance doesn't Cover that as a Service!

what "real personal attention" is not covered that used to be in the "good ole days"?

Because you're afraid the government might offer you optional health insurance?

#59 | Posted by rcade at 2009-08-14 03:46 PM

This is pure bull shit, all so partisan republicans can play out their little revenge game on Democrats.

Well said.

This has been nothing more for some than a chance to stick it to Obama.

I have to laugh and everyone that screams "read the bill" and then talks about the "death panels" in it.

#57 | Posted by 726

I call Bullshit.

Obama picked August, the slowest month of the year to get this passed thinking that no one was paying attention.

He forcefully came out and said that this bill MUST be passed this year.

He and the Dems put together a bill that has the government getting more into Socialized Medicine, a topic that he knows Conservative will not buy into.

He set himself up for failure!

And then you come out and say shit like this thinking that no one is paying attention.

This is BULLSHIT!

Allow us THE SAME HEALTH CARE PLAN OR NO PLAN as federal employees get.

What else is there to debate?

I call Bullshit.

Obama picked August, the slowest month of the year to get this passed thinking that no one was paying attention.

He forcefully came out and said that this bill MUST be passed this year.

He and the Dems put together a bill that has the government getting more into Socialized Medicine, a topic that he knows Conservative will not buy into.

He set himself up for failure!

And then you come out and say shit like this thinking that no one is paying attention.

This is BULLSHIT!

#62 | Posted by Eddie at 2009-08-14 04:04 PM

What a bunch of incoherent drivel. There were no "death panels" included in any of the provisions.

#64 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE

incoherent because you have trouble understanding the truth when it goes against you.

726 said:
"This has been nothing more for some than a chance to stick it to Obama. "

What part do you not understand?

Because it bears repeating....

And in other late breaking news....it appears now that many of those accusing the Obama Health Reform plans of having Death Panels that will euthanize Aunt Sadie and Uncle Remus have previously been in favor of them.

The list of hypocrites includes Sen's Isakson, Grassley and....wait for it....Sarah Palin!!

It appears that the list of those making shit up grows daily and perhaps Death Panels would be a proper course....for these folks.

The list of hypocrites includes Sen's Isakson, Grassley and....wait for it....Sarah Palin!!

#66 | Posted by Reagan58

If Obama would be honest and say that he was introducing Socialized Medicine in the bill, then that would be more honest and you would see a lot less of these attacks.

What part do you not understand?

#65 | Posted by Eddie at 2009-08-14 04:11 PM | Reply | Flag:

The part where so many that claim to be Christian, conservative, right wing or any of the other perjoratives that they may choose are so determined to scream, yell and vote against their very own best interest. If these reforms are defeated or watered down to some half assed measure by this group I will take deep personal offense anytime that I hear someone state that they're a Christian. NWYJWD....not what your jesus would do.

I understand that you personally enjoy channeling Trig but I think that's just a flaw within your cranium.

The list of hypocrites includes Sen's Isakson, Grassley and....wait for it....Sarah Palin!!

It appears that the list of those making shit up grows daily and perhaps Death Panels would be a proper course....for these folks.

#66 | Posted by Reagan58

Not to mention Uncle Newtie

If Obama would be honest and say that he was introducing Socialized Medicine in the bill, then that would be more honest and you would see a lot less of these attacks.

#67 | Posted by Eddie at 2009-08-14 04:16 PM | Reply | Flag

Is that the CURRENT lie that Lush Rimjob is telling you guys to push out?

#68 | Posted by Reagan58

Again,

What part do you not understand?

Obama set himself up for failure. It was a rookie mistake.

He is being dishonest with the American people and the more he speaks the more the public support for this bill declines.

Obama picked August, the slowest month of the year to get this passed thinking that no one was paying attention.

Nothing passes in August. It's when Congress recesses. He wanted it passed in July.

SAN,

I get Nutty Newty's op-eds in our local paper, I try to blank out what that idiot has to say, hence the omission.

Is that the CURRENT lie that Lush Rimjob is telling you guys to push out?

#70 | Posted by Reagan58

LOL! nice try.

You guys are RABID today. LOL

It's common sense if you have an open mind

Common sense 1
Liberal fuckwads 0

Next up, the notion of a single-payer system. Once we remove this from the bill, we can get down to the real work of actually reforming health insurance and driving down costs for everyone.

Of course, we'll need to address illegal immigration at some point, and send them fuckers packing. That will take a HUGE strain off the system.

Sarah Palin 1, Democrats 0
#41 | Posted by mysterytoy

You mean...
Sarah Palin 1, Seniors 0.

Remember, it was the GOP who put that portion of the bill in there. And I'm sure those GOP centrists LOVE Palin and Newt right now.

But its really like:
Seniors 0, Attorneys 1.

Your seniors can now pay people like me to write those Living Wills for a mere $300 an hour or more. Thanks for the business.

Libs,

Since you're stating that you're the top in your own wide stance stall relationships, please just go contribute to something other than the santorum smell that follows you around.

LOL -

You fools ARE really worked up today. That tells me we're on the right track.

Yes, I'm pissed. We finally have a chance to do something about health care and health insurance that doesn't leave the average family starting out each year ~$10K (or more) in the hole for basic coverage that still leaves many vulnerable. We have a chance to do something right that's NOT about enriching the shareholders and because of you right wing nutters we'll end up with something half-assed like Bush's prescription plan.

LOL - suck it reagan58; you are your ilk are on the WRONG side of this debate, and are finally starting to wake up and realize that Americans are REJECTING you and your policies toward health insurance reform.

KILL the public option!!!!!!!

You fools ARE really worked up today. That tells me we're on the right track.

#78 | Posted by Libs_R_Below_Me at 2009-08-14 04:24 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

No, you fucking moron, you and your brethren are screwing all of us that don't have $millions in the bank. You're fighting against your own self interest and to me that makes you the worst sort of buttplugs around.

If these reforms are defeated or watered down to some half assed measure by this group I will take deep personal offense anytime that I hear someone state that they're a Christian. NWYJWD....not what your jesus would do.

#68 | Posted by Reagan58 at 2009-08-14 04:16 PM

With apologies to honest, hard working buttplugs across the land.

Obama will never pull it off

all of us that don't have $millions in the bank....

Class warfare on display - typical libfuck BS

Is Isakson one of the hypocrits? I thought he introduced the bill and then publicly denounced Palin's "death panel" rhetoric as nuts.

#86 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE

Yes, but then he flipped again.

You fools ARE really worked up today. That tells me we're on the right track.
#78 | Posted by Libs_R_Below_Me at 2009-08-14 04:24 PM

YEAH!

You Got Em' Right Where you Want Em'

Sincerely

John McCouldnt

Equal Opportunity Death Panels for Idiot Rightwingers

That's a bumper sticker I can get behind...

Yes, but then he flipped again.

#87 | Posted by SanAntonioRogue at 2009-08-14 04:33 PM

Republicans are such a fucking joke. What's worse is I wish we could have an alternative to vote for in '10 and '12.

It appears that the list of those making shit up grows daily and perhaps Death Panels would be a proper course....for these folks.

#66 | POSTED BY REAGAN58 AT 2009-08-14 04:11 PM | REPLY | FLAG

For those of you who are too stooopid to realize it, these changes mean nothing. The end-of-life counselors are not the same group that will be deciding whether a procedure is medically reasonable or necessary (i.e. the real death panels).

Taking out these provisions do nothing to save grandma from having to take some pain pills instead of getting the pace maker.

Gotta love the Dems, though, they give up a throw away item that, in reality, changes nothing.

LOD,

Here's languaage that he'd put into a proposed bill...OOOOPS

"an individual shall not be entitled to, or enrolled for, benefits under part A or enrolled under part B unless the individual has, in accordance with procedures established by the Secretary, provided proof to the Secretary that the individual has in effect an advance directive recognized under State lawthe term advance directive' means a living will, medical directive, health care power of attorney, advance directive, or other written statement by a competent individual that is recognized under State law and indicates the individual's wishes regarding medical treatment in the event of future incompetence. Such term includes an advance health care directive and a health care directive recognized under State law."

"People are ready to see him move beyond the rhetoric. People want to see jobs come back. We want to see the economy recover. So we're still, I think, waiting to see that," says Chris Lawson, 30, who voted for Obama last fall and says he doesn't regret it. The Littleton, Colo., resident expressed worries about health care in particular, saying: "We are clearly moving toward more government in more people's lives. ... That's not a good thing, more government."

Finally, a libfuck with some sense about him.

More Gov = BAD

Somoco,

The REAL Death Panels already exist, most in corporate bureaucrats offices, but others that are mandated by the states. GWB for instance, created a state panel in Texas when governor that basically takes the insurance providers off the hook for decidng what treatments will be denied for any of a variety of reasons. Can't have those contributors gettin' sued in Texas after all.

Nice Bush deflection, raytard.

Ok, I'm calling this week a wrap....piss off and fuck you rightards. I hope your weekend brings the discovery of a lump on your neck that your insurance carrier will dump you off the rolls 10 days after diagnosis. Seems extremely fair to me.

Yes, I'm pissed. We finally have a chance to do something about health care and health insurance ...
#79 | Posted by Reagan58

Yeah, but this is a democracy. Even your Sen. Spector aggrees that their needs to be some feedback from the people.

I'm pissed too! This is a bad bill. There needs to be reform, but it has to be done right! You can't try to pass BULLSHIT when no one is looking.

There is going to be a reform bill, but it's going to be the right one, not this one.

Go beat your wife some more, and we'll talk to you next week.

Ok, I'm calling this week a wrap....piss off and fuck you rightards. I hope your weekend brings the discovery of a lump on your neck that your insurance carrier will dump you off the rolls 10 days after diagnosis. Seems extremely fair to me.

#97 | Posted by Reagan58

Wow!!! I'm getting the same fear mongering from Obama and his team. Amazing!

Again! We need a bill to help reform Health Care, but we need something that represents the people.

84% of Americans with insurance are satisfied with what they have. That's a very large portion of folks. Can you call it a majority?

...and by "wife", I of course mean your stubby little dick, you whining piece of shit

No Eddie, that's the biggest lie of all. Because of the stances taken by the GOP and lies that have been told by the GOP and the fear that's been pushed out....by the GOP....we will get nothing or worse, some half assed piece of crap that's even worse than we have now.

There is only one purpose to politicians that write bills using lengthy but vague language. They're trying to deceive.

It truly is that simple.

When someone asks a yes or no question the only response necessary is yes or no.

We already have government/universal health care for the indigent and the elderly.

#48 | Posted by COMMONSENSE

Good 'ole Commonsense the freeloader. Always looking for a handout!

#51 | Posted by Eddie at 2009-08-14 03:23 PM | Reply | Flag:

Nope. I pay for my own insurance and the insurance of my employees (Medical/Dental/Vision)

I'm actually able to comprehend that I wont be forced to do anything and that it's not going to change anything for me or my employees.

If they want to get their own, fine by me, but I'll still offer it.

We already have government/universal health care for the indigent and the elderly.

BINGO

Let's reform the rest, not start over with a public option.

Ok, I'm calling this week a wrap....piss off and fuck you rightards. I hope your weekend brings the discovery of a lump on your neck that your insurance carrier will dump you off the rolls 10 days after diagnosis. Seems extremely fair to me.

#97 | Posted by Reagan58

hahahahaha. I'll get into see my MD on Monday, get referred on Tuesday, excision/biopsy on Wednesday. Got a group plan, so they won't dump.

If I was under govt. plan, I'd see a doctor just around the time of the matastasizing.

CBO says preventative care more expensive

GWB for instance, created a state panel in Texas when governor that basically takes the insurance providers off the hook for decidng what treatments will be denied for any of a variety of reasons. Can't have those contributors gettin' sued in Texas after all.

#95 | Posted by Reagan58

Are you talking about the panel that was set up to help bring down the ENORMOUS number of frivolous lawsuits against Providers?

Do you realize that frivolous lawsuits are a large contributor to the cost of medicine going up?

How is this going to change when the Feds take over?

It won't. It's not even being addressed.

hahahahaha. I'll get into see my MD on Monday, get referred on Tuesday, excision/biopsy on Wednesday. Got a group plan, so they won't dump.

If I was under govt. plan, I'd see a doctor just around the time of the matastasizing.

#106 | Posted by somoco

This is a true and legitimate fear. This happens all the time in Europe.

CBO says Obama care unsustainable.

Please, please tell me how it is that a doctor is the one who is qualified to discuss end of life issues with the dying person? I would love to know how you arrive at that wonderful belief. A doctor specializes in treating patients and most of them do not give real personal attention to each of their patients. And now we are supposed to rely on them for advice on how to die? Please tell me how this makes sense?

#33 | Posted by everlong at 2009-08-14 02:25 PM | Reply | Flag:

It's not just doctors, but such things as reimbursement for preparation of ones Will would be covered. THAT was the intention of what is referred to as end-of-life counseling.

This is a true and legitimate fear. This happens all the time in Europe.

#109 | Posted by Eddie at 2009-08-14 04:51 PM | Reply | Flag:

Link please!!! .....Preferably something from Europe and nothing with 'Newsmax' or WorldNutDaily' in the URL.

Should I not even bother waiting?

CBO says preventative care more expensive

blogs.abcnews.com

#107 | Posted by Washboard

You know this cost would go down if government got out of Medicine.

The cost of becoming a provider in this country is outrageous!

To increase access to medicine. Make it easier to become a basic provider of medicine.

Nurse Practitioners can take over the role of the General Practitioner and Pediatric care and then refer out to specialist when neeeded.

Most of the visits in a standard clinic can be done by an NP. This frees MDs to practice more specilized medicine.

Ok, I'm calling this week a wrap....piss off and fuck you rightards. I hope your weekend brings the discovery of a lump on your neck that your insurance carrier will dump you off the rolls 10 days after diagnosis. Seems extremely fair to me.

#97 | Posted by Reagan58

Buy a voo-doo doll and stimulate the economy. You stupid bitch.

When you can't defend your postition curses and voo-doo rhetroic is all you've got.

Should I not even bother waiting?

#112 | Posted by COMMONSENSE

The first one I found is about Canada...

I'm looking for more.

The dems are the biggest bunch of babies on this. They have enough votes in the senate, and in the house. If they can't do it, it is because of democrats. Repubs, angry white people, whatever stereotype you want to spread have nothing to do with it. It is 2 things, Obama's failure to lead, and the democrats failure to get their own members on board. The rest is just a side story.

Here's an article about increasing access to Medical Care.

The dems are the biggest bunch of babies on this.
#116 | Posted by freechoice

I don't think their babies, they just got caught at trying to pass the bill when no one was looking.

Obama was a rookie on this one. He actually thought that he had the political clout to get a Socialist package like this passed with no objections.

Boy was he wrong.

As I understand it, the "End of Life Consultation" part of the bill now reads:

"Na na naaa na, na na naaa na, hey hey, goodbye."

Much more comforting.

Intellectually dishonesty, criminally naivety or just plain stupid.

Long lines in Britain...

likes of Ezekiel Emanuel

Doesn't this guy work for Obama? Is his brother Rahm?

Those 2 seem really scary to me.

Socialism is a great idea, except it hasn't worked anywhere it's ever been tried.

#120 | Posted by zulu

Zulu! Going around spouting Facts like this wont make you many friends on the playground.

Those of you out there who have used this compassionate reasoned provision to claim there are death panels have no clue what you are talking about and should remember you WILL be having this conversation with your doctor or you children will be. Only now you will pay for it...

#20 | POSTED BY PROLIX247 AT 2009-08-14 02:00 PM | REPLY | FLAG

Prolix, the story is compelling, I do admit.

However, what if your father in law wanted to fight on despite his condition, and stay in the hospital? What then if the government told him that it was not a reasonable expenditure, and sent him home with hospice.

The choice would have no longer been his, and I think that is what people object to.

"Those are the only logical possibilities that could account for anyone not seeing how this heal care 'reform' monstrosity will not result in life and death choices being made by the likes of Ezekiel Emanuel." ZULU

Don't worry ZULU your goddess of hate - Ann Coulter - has put Ezekiel on her "death list." She's a self proclaimed christian, right?

"The choice would have no longer been his, and I think that is what people object to." SOMOCCO

Hello!! Right now some person who is not a Dr. and is not held accountable to anyone but the CEO makes the decision. Public accountability is what this reform is about.

Public accountability is what this reform is about.

#126 | POSTED BY ANDYB62 AT 2009-08-14 05:38 PM | REPLY | FLAG

Dream on Alice.

Wait a second. What about all those Democrat congressmen....this web site...saying that this was NOT in the bill...but now they are taking it out? How do you take out something that was not there?

"How do you take it out if it was never there....?"

Think of it as being your imaginary friend. Someone went "poof", and your friend was gone.
I'm sure you'll find another shortly.

Should I not even bother waiting?

#112 | Posted by COMMONSENSE

The first one I found is about Canada...

I'm looking for more.

seattletimes.nwsource.com

"In other words, 192 people either died or were too sick to have surgery before they worked their way to the front of the waiting line. Yet, the Ontario population of about 12 million is only 4 percent of the population of the United States. "

#115 | Posted by Eddie at 2009-08-14 05:02 PM | Reply | Flag:

Pssssst....I realize that in a recent pool that 12% of NC conservatives said Hawaii wasn't part of the U.S., but I think you should know that Canada isn't part of Europe.

Long lines in Britain...

www.heritage.org

"Access to cancer treatment, for example, became a major crisis in Britain when patients were having to wait a year or more after being diagnosed to begin chemotherapy. The British government now is spending a fortune to reduce that waiting time to three months by 2010, but it's unlikely to meet that goal, Pollard insists."

BTW, I didn't google this. I "Binged" it.

#121 | Posted by Eddie at 2009-08-14 05:16 PM | Reply | Fl

You really don't get it...do you?

I asked for something from Europe (not some right-wing hacks views on Europe) to back your claims.

You give me a link to the Heritage Foundation? It might as well be Limbaugh or Hanutty's own website.

Try again.

If I was under govt. plan, I'd see a doctor just around the time of the matastasizing.

#106 | Posted by somoco

This is a true and legitimate fear. This happens all the time in Europe.

#109 | Posted by Eddie at 2009-08-14 04:51 PM | Reply | Flag:

"This happens all the time in Europe."

Should be easy to find a link then, right? A link from a European source that states it "happens all the time".

So far Ive been given a link about Canada and one from the 'Heritage Foundation' (no bias there).

So far Ive been given a link about Canada and one from the 'Heritage Foundation' (no bias there).

#132 | Posted by COMMONSENSE

Are they lying?

You asked for links and I gave them to you.

Too bad you don't like them.

You need to have legitimate reason to refute it.

Commonsense,

What part of

"The British government now is spending a fortune to reduce that waiting time to three months by 2010"

Do you not understand?

I think you're full of shit and need to link to something that refutes it.

"happens all the time".

So far Ive been given a link about Canada and one from the 'Heritage Foundation' (no bias there).

#132 | Posted by COMMONSENSE

Do you really want an article that says "happens all the time"?

LOL

You're full of crap.

The ball's in your court now.

Pssssst....I realize that in a recent pool that 12% of NC conservatives said Hawaii wasn't part of the U.S., but I think you should know that Canada isn't part of Europe.

#130 | Posted by COMMONSENSE

you are just too hardheaded and brave (or stupid)

Does Canada have a Socialist system for Health Care?

BTW, Common, I gave you several links.

You need to come up with a link to refute it.

"Breast cancer rates in Europe under nationalized health care systems are significantly higher than they are here, and women are much more likely to have breast cancer there than here"

"More serious problems in Britain's health care were reported last month, when cancer researchers announced that as many as 15,000 people over age 75 were dying prematurely from cancer every year. Experts said those deaths could have been avoided if those patients had been diagnosed and treated earlier."

over age 75 were dying prematurely

oxymoron?

BTW, Common, I gave you several links.

You need to come up with a link to refute it.

#137 | Posted by Eddie

Didn't think so...

see there was never any death panel...they took it out of the bill

Does this all mean that Screaming Howard Dean will lose his job as "Doctor Death", Head of Obama's Death Panel.

Christianity is a great idea, except it hasn't worked anywhere it's ever been tried.

Christianity is a great idea, except it hasn't worked anywhere it's ever been tried.

I don't entirely agree. I am an atheist, but I still believe that the lessons and morals that Christ allegedly taught are quite successful when adhered to. As an atheist, I have no trouble with these tenets simply because they were put forth by a fictitious deity, but a real person.

LOL - suck it reagan58; you are your ilk are on the WRONG side of this debate, and are finally starting to wake up and realize that Americans are REJECTING you and your policies toward health insurance reform.

KILL the public option!!!!!!!

#80 | Posted by Libs_R_Below_Me at 2009-08-14 04:28 PM | Reply | Flag:

Loser,

Americans are not rejecting ACTUAL policy. They're simply being fed lies by you your fellow 'tards to fuel fear.

With Sara 'Quitter' Palin for a mom, perhaps Trig would be better suited facing a 'Death panel'. Yup, I said it, shit-heap.

"happens all the time".

So far Ive been given a link about Canada and one from the 'Heritage Foundation' (no bias there).

#132 | Posted by COMMONSENSE

Do you really want an article that says "happens all the time"?

LOL

You're full of crap.

The ball's in your court now.

#135 | Posted by Eddie at 2009-08-14 06:24 PM | Reply | Flag

The ball is in my court??

Really? Post some shit from the Heritage Foundation that doesnt even support your claims and now you're done?

OK, I'll take that as your White Flag.

Huh....I would have thought it would be so easy for you to find an article from the European press that backs your claim, but alas....it wasn't so.
I mean, considering it "Happens All the Time".

BTW, what does Canada have to do with this? You were expertly weighing in with your total knowledge of European healthcare....I was simply asking you to prove it. You can't.....but I can tell you tried your hardest.

FAIL!!!

Commonsense,

What part of

"The British government now is spending a fortune to reduce that waiting time to three months by 2010"

Do you not understand?

I think you're full of shit and need to link to something that refutes it.

#134 | Posted by Eddie at 2009-08-14 06:23 PM | Reply | Flag:

Right...another Heritage Foundation link.

Do you have anything from a group that isn't leading the charge to kill healthcare?

Anything from a European source Like I originally asked?

No?

This is a true and legitimate fear. This happens all the time in Europe.

#109 | Posted by Eddie at 2009-08-14 04:51 PM | Reply | Flag:

Link please!!! .....Preferably something from Europe and nothing with 'Newsmax' or WorldNutDaily' in the URL.

Should I not even bother waiting?

#112 | Posted by COMMONSENSE at 2009-08-14 04:55 PM | Reply | Flag:

I asked for something from Europe and I get Canada, then you post something from the Heritage Foundation? Forget NewsMax and WorldNutDaily....you went straight to the heart of 'crazy'.

PALIN writes on facebook

it gets changed....

and THATS what really pisses the obama lovers off more than anything...

she also just wrote about the zeke emanual bullshit about idea he has that young children and old people who have certain deseases arent worth the money..

dementia...he doesnt consider care for that to be "BASIC"...

tell that to people with mothers and fathers who have it...

and you dupes keep slurping it up.......

"Americans are not rejecting ACTUAL policy. They're simply being fed lies by you your fellow 'tards to fuel fear."

What is the ACTUAL policy they are rejecting? Nobody even knows what the final Bill will look like. Yet the dems are out there holding THM on this or these reforms? Why? They have admitted they haven't even read the Bill or can possibly know exactly what is in the 1100 pages. The fact smarter people come up with legitimate questions they can't answer only proves their ignorance and all the scorn they are getting. But does the attention focus on their inability to answer tough questions? Or does it focus on those asking the questions?

ATTENTION

MORE DEMOCRAT dirty tricks..

remember the houston congresswoman who was on the phone???

first said she was talking to her people inside
then told fox and others she was on health care hotline to have answers..

A woman named roxana mayer stood up and said she was a pediatric physician and she supported obamacare...she gushed about it and jackson lee hugged her and it made the paper

OOPS>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
mayer is NO DOCTOR and she admits it
she is a college student who WAS AN OBAMA DELGATE TO THE DNC CONVENTION

and lady WITH HER was maria isabel..you may remember her

SHE was head of OBAMA FOR PRESIDENT CAMPAIGN headquarters that was made to take down a pic there of CHE'...a murdering terrorist liberal hero..

ANOTHER DEMOCRAT FUCKIN LIE from fuckin liars.....

Christ almighty Shiela Jackson Lee sounded like Karl Malone on CNN the other day. Using her name in some bizarre rant. Of course another Houston Congressman only wants constituents from his district to attend the THM. Nobody bothered to ask him if he takes any money from others not in his district. Or if an ID will be needed to prove they are in the district. But seeing as he voted against the Voter ID Act, I can see why the media was silent.

"Alleged...Fictitious...."

But you like what was said, anyway. By something somewhere, maybe. At some point in time, you don't know when.

Somewhat confused, seems like.

AND HERE WE HAVE official confirmation of a charge we have made for some time

racist if you oppose the president...

couldnt have asked for a bettr example

and libs here slurp it up as much as ever..

"Christianity hasn't worked anywhere it's been tried...."

I guess that depends on what you mean. Christianity wasn't meant to bring in utopia from your point of view (whatever that is). You sound like the ancient Jews, disappointed there wasn't a warrior messiah, sweeping inequity away before him.

Christianity assumes the world will always be what the world is until there isn't a world anymore.

But if you think the Millenium is come when Christianity is gone, that's silly. I've seen the alternative to belief in God-millions appear to adhere to it, and no---

It's nothing like atheism as you'd like to understand it. It is cynical, mean, violent, and shallow. It's the thing you should really be complaining about, but won't until it bites you hard enough to assume personal reality.

here is an excerpt of writings of zeke emanual...a close health care advisor of the president

under the "civic republican or deliberative democratic" construct, "services provided to individuals who are irreversibly prevented from being or becoming participating citizens are not basic and should not be guaranteed. An obvious example is not guaranteeing health services to patients with dementia. A less obvious example is guaranteeing neuropsychological services to ensure children with learning disabilities can read and learn to reason."

so take your lies about no death panel and shove it up your ass because I believe that this is a comment from an evil person and a person who has the EAR OF THE president..

EAR OF THe president...sorry but no joke...too easy..LOL

The sad thing is many people need "end of life" consulting. The process is unknown to a lot of people and they also get taken advantage of. This is also one of the most fearful and confusing times of their life.

Leave it to fucktard republicans to screw this up with their fear mongering.

"under the "civic republican or deliberative democratic" construct, "services provided to individuals who are irreversibly prevented from being or becoming participating citizens are not basic and should not be guaranteed. An obvious example is not guaranteeing health services to patients with dementia. A less obvious example is guaranteeing neuropsychological services to ensure children with learning disabilities can read and learn to reason."

Show a link, shitstain (BLT) or STFU as usual.

How you doing Furio?

This is all a smoke screen, so that we don't look over there....and see HB 676...Medicare for all. Simpler, cheaper, better, doctors' prefer it because they don't get jerked around by insurance company thieves....what is the question here????

Like this Doctor Danni?

This is also one of the most fearful and confusing times of their life.

Exactly, and you don't think Doctors would be pushed for a type of "treatment" by the government like they are now with drugs?

Read pages 100-200 of the stimulus bill, as I am now, and you tell me that it is acceptable.

How to RThugs handle organ transplants? While there are waiting lists the organs are handed out by a board decision on who is best suited and would live a better life with the organ. That's right mouth breathers there are already "death boards" as you call them because there are limited medical resources available such as hearts and livers.

Seriously is you were a board who would you pick for a liver transplant?

1) A liberal lawyer who works out regularly, eats organic food, drives a Pius, doting father, donates pro bono work to help the poor and is on several arts committees who got hepatitis from some white trash republican who spat on the organic food in the market

2) White trash republican unlicensed plumber who cheats his customers (when he is not on disability), who is barely literate, fat from junk food, smokes unfiltered, alcoholic, drives a 75' Buick, beats his kids, curses minority little girls and brags about it, get hepatitis from a crack whore who he never paid. spits in the organic food sections.

Have you even read any of this stuff or are you talking out of your ass Furio?

"Exactly, and you don't think Doctors would be pushed for a type of "treatment" by the government like they are now with drugs?

Read pages 100-200 of the stimulus bill, as I am now, and you tell me that it is acceptable.

#162 | Posted by badjuju "

Doctors are already being pushed by hospitals, insurance companies and pharmas to give certain types of "treatment". Many which are not good for their patients but are profitable.

I think the current situation is worse than anything under a national health care. There is entirely too much gloom and doom gong around. Just follow Germany's, Frace, UK, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Austria, Belgium, etc a examples of how NHS provides a longer life than the private system in the US.

"Have you even read any of this stuff or are you talking out of your ass Furio?

#164 | Posted by badjuju "

And you badjuju, you reading or interpreting? You obviously went into this with a negative attitude and will take every point in the bill out of context in order to support your paranoia.

Seriously is you were a board who would you pick for a liver transplant?

Party affiliation is not a consideration when choosing transplant patients.

I don't. I know for a fact they are pushed now, you think the government and their national Healthcare Database wont start working ROI into it?

Healthcare reform is needed, but not like this.

Actually Furio, I didn't. But I wanted to see what all the fuss is about. I am finding out myself. Don't try to turn this around on me because I am fucking reading it and you are getting your talking points from a mass email or huffington post.

Have you read any of it? I figure since our corrupt politicians arent going to read it, someone should.

Zeit - stop hijacking threads! I'm in an argument here with Furio damnit!

I think Rogers should get a ventrilo server so we can argue in there.

:)

Zeit, as in the other thread, nothing you post can beat mine

"Actually Furio, I didn't. But I wanted to see what all the fuss is about. I am finding out myself. Don't try to turn this around on me because I am fucking reading it and you are getting your talking points from a mass email or huffington post.

Have you read any of it? I figure since our corrupt politicians arent going to read it, someone should.

#169 | Posted by badjuju"

Badjuju, I haven't read it but I am not getting my panties in a twist thinking they are going to stop care for the elderly or the chronic ill. That is utter bullshit, dementia actually. The current system will collapse in the near future. It has to change to a national based one. Republicans backed by pharma and insurance companies want it to stay the same and milk the profits as long as possible. 20 years down the road means nothing to them. They have a max 5 year plan for profits.

There is no alternative to an NHS for the US. The question should be how is it written. If this is your goal to see how it can be improved then great job. But if you are just trying to find some out of context bullshit to say how NHS will turn the US into a Nazi state then you are a fucking clown.

Like a random piece of dung, the Zeit floats from place to place serving no purpose...

and badjuju none of my points are from Huff or anything else. They are just common knowledge, having numerous friends who exist under NHS systems and myself having used a couple NHS systems.

I also have had private insurance in the US as well. And the clinics in the US always check out who your provider is. They will refuse service under some which do not pay out well.

Both have advantages and disadvantages but one of them is ridiculously expense and will collapse in the future.

Do you know anything about NHS systems or are you just using emailed talking points, worldnetdaily and your imagination?

"Party affiliation is not a consideration when choosing transplant patients.

#167 | Posted by goatman"

Lifestyle is.

You know what I think? THEY ALL NEED TO GO. EVERY ONE OF THEM. They are all corrupt and are moving WAY TOO FAST on these bills.

Now, as you say, the current system will collapse in the future, you mean Medicare? Because that's what is in place now. Yes, it will collapse, spending and fraud are rampant.

As for Republicans being backed by pharma and insurance, you really are that naive to lay them blame soley at their feet? Really? Think about that for a minute.

It should be how it is written, and while I am not a lawyer and am making the best I can through these bills, there are some things that just shouldn't be in there.

I do not want the government to know anything about my healthcare. It is not their business. This database that in the bill itself states "will affect every American" upsets me a tad bit.

I dont even know WTF woldnetdaily is lol

Good god, all I had to do was see the "I'd rather be waterboarding" t-shirt and closed the window.

/facedesk

Lifestyle is.

IT certainly is. So none of this is valid criteria when choosing a transplant patient:

drives a Pius, doting father, donates pro bono work to help the poor and is on several arts committees who got hepatitis from some white trash republican who spat on the organic food in the market, White trash republican unlicensed plumber who cheats his customers (when he is not on disability), who is barely literate, drives a 75' Buick, beats his kids, curses minority little girls and brags about it, get hepatitis from a crack whore who he never paid. spits in the organic food sections.

works out regularly, eats organic food, fat from junk food, smokes unfiltered, alcoholic,

"I do not want the government to know anything about my healthcare. It is not their business. This database that in the bill itself states "will affect every American" upsets me a tad bit.

#180 | Posted by badjuju"

Your information is already well known and recorded. Too late, HIPAA. There are protections against it being released publicly but it flows between insurance providers, doctors and hospitals quite regularly. Remember how the Fed needed to step in and force insurance companies to pay for pre-existing conditions? I would trust the good intent of a government directed NHS plan over insurance companies in a heartbeat.

The big companies have used the republican party to block any national health care through fears of a police state. The energy companies have always used the republican party to ease pollution controls.

This is simple stuff.

"The stuff that would be considered are:

works out regularly, eats organic food, fat from junk food, smokes unfiltered, alcoholic,

#184 | Posted by goatman "

I see you only laugh at your own jokes.

I'm the Tony Soprano of our world Furio, the one that runs the show.

I understand HIPAA, I work for a PBM. What has been approved is very different.

I see you only laugh at your own jokes.

That was a joke? Well, now that I re-read it, I should have known because a:

A liberal lawyer who works out regularly, eats organic food, drives a Pius, doting father, donates pro bono work to help the poor and is on several arts committees

My bad. So here you go:

LOL

Feel better?

Look up HIPPA, the look up HITECH. Educate yourself a little.

"I understand HIPAA, I work for a PBM. What has been approved is very different.

#189 | Posted by badjuju"

My overall perspective is the US has ended it's long run of easy growth since 1950. Bombing Japan and Germany to the stoneage gave the US a big headstart. The past 30 years have been a mix of voodoo economics and luck with the tech boom but there has been little real growth when GDP increases are offset with the growing debt since Reagan. the world is a very competitive place now and the US must remain global as it now imports most of it's natural resources such as oil and precious metals needed for industry.

The US needs to consolidate it's gains. the laizzes faire economic model does not work anymore as there are limited resources and growth which both need to be managed at a country level. Health care is one of them. Europe has always had shortages: labor, natural resources, land, etc and has adjusted accordingly to ensure they had a sustainable economy as best possible.

I understand that, and I can see that point of view, and you are apparently more educated in this respect than I am, however - we need to be aware of what is in these bills, and object to the things that have no business being in them.

I understand why FUNDING was in this stimulus bill, but why were the guildines for a National Database of all Americans health information in it?

Shouldn't that be in ... the Healthcare bill?

And I love how it was presented on the floor and passed 2 days later.

Blows my mind.

"Look up HIPPA, the look up HITECH. Educate yourself a little.

www.readthestimulus.org

news.cnet.com

We can agree Cnet is pretty neutral, correct?

#192 | Posted by badjuju "

Yeah everything is now standardized. Like HL7. Standards gear towards interoperability. It's been a steady progression toward a nationwide health registry. There are many benefits to it outside of the fear of government takeover. Sorry to spoil your fantasy but the government has already taken over. You realize Bush put the final nail in the coffin with the tracking of phone calls, cc transactions, bank transactions, internet browsing, even library books?

At least with an NHS there will be a benefit.

Unless you have a better solution?

"I understand why FUNDING was in this stimulus bill, but why were the guildines for a National Database of all Americans health information in it?

Shouldn't that be in ... the Healthcare bill?

#194 | Posted by badjuju"

Because it is absolutely ridiculously expensive to do.

But there are big benefits for it. Doctors and hospitals are notorious for going cheap on IT and information. It all needs to be better standardized. The cost of care and mistakes will go down when it is.

Fuck Bush, we all know it was BS. And if I had been old enough or aware enough then I would've said the same thing then.

Lets not get into the "Your baddies are worse than my baddies" - cause he isn't my baddie.

My solution? Repeal the Patriot Act and remove this section from the stimulus bill. It should only apply to those that opt into the Government Care plan. No one else.

Ill pay more for private heath insurance. I currently do not have healthcare, and pay out of pocket. I pay my doctor around 100.00 a year for direct access to nurses, administration fees etc.

I have no problem with that at all.

You realize Bush put the final nail in the coffin with the tracking of phone calls, cc transactions, bank transactions, internet browsing, even library books?

Actually there are still some nails to be driven into that coffin and Obama is doing just that.

"Ill pay more for private heath insurance. I currently do not have healthcare, and pay out of pocket. I pay my doctor around 100.00 a year for direct access to nurses, administration fees etc.

I have no problem with that at all.

#199 | Posted by badjuju "

And from your previous statement you are in the 20-25yo age group? The only thing you need to worry about are accidents. That is why your premium is so cheap.

No, I am in the 30-35, and do not wish to discuss any health issues I may have. I look at about 140.00 /m for insurance for a basic PPO through BCBS or UHC.

Once you hit 30 it will climb at an accelerated rate. And you will stop feeling how simple the problem is then. Add in young children and a wife? You sure will be paying heavily out of pocket then. All the while you and your wife are adding productivity to your employer and country as well as raising two more productive citizens. The general health of the population is critical for growth and stability. It is a shared problem and benefit, not an individual obligation.

I am female, so I giggled at the wife and kids thing, however females generally have more health related problems in the younger years than males. You act like I am thinking of only myself. I take all situations into account, and I am looking for a way to opt out or to only hold people in the database that opt into this program, whatever it may be.

Why is the CREATION of this in the stimulus bill?

And this is what I meant by ROI, you've just proven my earlier point.

Actually there are still some nails to be driven into that coffin and Obama is doing just that.

What do you mean? I know about the internet thing, and the CARS.GOV thing, but what does that mean?

This is the text from the "Cash for Clunkers" website privacy disclaimer:

This application provides access to the DoT CARS system. When logged on to the CARS system, your computer is considered a Federal computer system and is the property of the United States Government. It is for authorized use only. Users (authorized or unauthorized) have no explicit or implicit expectation of privacy.
Any or all uses of this system and all files on this system may be intercepted, monitored, recorded, copied, audited, inspected, and disclosed to authorized CARS, DoT, and law enforcement personnel, as well as authorized officials of other agencies, both domestic and foreign. By using this system, the user consents to such interception, monitoring, recording, copying, auditing, inspection, and disclosure at the discretion CARS or the DoT personnel.
Unauthorized or improper use of this system may result in administrative disciplinary action and civil and criminal penalties.
Unauthorized attempts to defeat or circumvent security features, to use the system for other than intended purposes, to deny service to authorized users, to access, obtain, alter, damage, or destroy information, or otherwise to interfere with the system or its operation are prohibited. Evidence of such acts may be disclosed to law enforcement authorities and result in criminal prosecution under the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act of 1986 (Public Law 99-474) and the National Information Infrastructure Protection Act of 1996 (Public Law 104-294), (18 U.S.C. 1030), or other applicable criminal laws.

I found it disturbing, to say the least.

O yeah - don't go to that website lol! Obama haz teh HAX0RZ!

What do you mean?

The increased wiretapping authorization and the "send us the fishy emails" thing jump to mind

O yeah. Forgot about that lol.

GOATMAN! YOU ARE FISHY TO ME! IM TURNING YOU IN BUDDY!

:P

"Why is the CREATION of this in the stimulus bill?

And this is what I meant by ROI, you've just proven my earlier point.

#204 | Posted by badjuju"

Again because the cost is so large it can be seen as a stimulus for the IT industry. I am sure it was also done for political expedience reasons as well. The ability to use the entire population for research data will be very beneficial to improving healthcare

well, I don't want to be in it. Take it out or opt me out.

Simple.

How many people do you think even KNOW about this?

Not many, because no one is paying attention.

What do you think of that Cars.gov disclaimer Furio?

You didn't go to the website and check did you? NO DON'T DO IT! Just watch a youtube video to verify!

"What do you think of that Cars.gov disclaimer Furio?

#212 | Posted by badjuju "

you are finally waking up to what really goes on with a government?

this is basic stuff. It is telling you the information you entered will become public record and to be respectful as the application is government property. Just like when you register your car or the deed to your home. Or if you visit a federal building.

The rest is language to convict hackers and denial of service assholes.

what's the big deal?

Ok - well - gnight Drudge. Sleep tight and sweet dreams.

Go to it then, Cowboy. I dare you.

Night!

GOATMAN! YOU ARE FISHY TO ME! IM TURNING YOU IN BUDDY!

I'm probably on every miscreant list in this country. I had to suffer the ultimate loss of privacy last month and get fingerprinted by the federal government for my TWIC card, which all offshore workers and merchant marines are now required have. This card has an RFID, so I carry it wrapped in tin foil in my wallet in case they want to track me.

"This card has an RFID, so I carry it wrapped in tin foil in my wallet in case they want to track me.

#217 | Posted by goatman"

they have an extremely limited range. they are not for tracking your movement but for ease of reading data which was either manually entered in the past or bar swiped. the concern would be someone trying to steal your information at close range since they aren't very secure.

they have an extremely limited range.

I realize that they can't be pinged by satellites or such, but I was told that it can be read by toll booth readers and those readers on the interstate that read truckers' data as they pass under or near it.

I don't want big brother knowing what roads I use

"I realize that they can't be pinged by satellites or such, but I was told that it can be read by toll booth readers and those readers on the interstate that read truckers' data as they pass under or near it.

I don't want big brother knowing what roads I use

#219 | Posted by goatman"

And you have to buy gas in cash along with every other purchase on your trip.

You also need to cover your license plate. In London they have cameras which read plates to determine if you have paid the congestion charge or not. No manual intervention needed.

You also have to turn off your cell phone. This is how the Italian police tracked FBI douches in Italy. Yes, the Italian police.

Make sure you don't have satellite nav either.

The benefits of tech have also limited our freedom as well.

I limit my CC usage to the internet and very large purchases. I don't want Visa selling my info to merchants for marketing.

Have you noticed how banks are limiting your daily cash limit to withdraw? That's because they make money each time you use your debit card both from the transaction fee and for selling your data to retailers.

You were well and truly fucked a long time before you got your RFID card.

Once you hit 30 it will climb at an accelerated rate. And you will stop feeling how simple the problem is then. Add in young children and a wife? You sure will be paying heavily out of pocket then. All the while you and your wife are adding productivity to your employer and country as well as raising two more productive citizens. The general health of the population is critical for growth and stability. It is a shared problem and benefit, not an individual obligation.

#203 | Posted by furio

When the right starts to realize that this is a national security issue coupled with one that will insure the future of this "republic" then it will become priority. As long as the Insurance companies and Health providers can manipulate the right via the false canard of individual rights, freedom and socialism then it will never be a priority for them.

As the saying goes..live together or die alone.

Oh, Legio, I thought you and Furio were brother/sister. I didn't know it was "like that" with you two. Carry on.