My headline got munched. It should be "More Work for Less Pay? Why Republicans

Nevermind..

It says it right in the article PRODUCTIVITY. Look, it may not seem fair, but how the hell do you expect the United States to remain competitive and to keep it's standard of living? We can't compete with low wage countries so we have to go up the ladder, working smarter, doing more with less, being leaner. If we attempt to compete on the same level wih China and at the same time expect bigger wages we are going to lose because the math doesn't add up. Please people, pick up Econ for Dummies at the store, it will help you understand this.

pick up Econ for Dummies at the store, it will help you understand this

No it won't. The book would be above their comprehension level.

I just want to be able to get a good paying part-time job wherever I move and I'll be a happy camper.

"I'll be a happy camper."
~CC

If you aren't part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

If you aren't part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

#6 | Posted by Zatoichi at 2009-08-13 12:35 AM

You're saying I give you some sort of chemical reaction? Hmm.

#6 | Posted by Zatoichi at 2009-08-13 12:35 AM

FF!

I love geeky humor!

The way to get back is to own your own business hire a republican and a democrat. Treat the Dem well and be a total ass to your republican employee. When the republican threatens to quit remind them you will ruin their reference. Also remind them how scarce jobs are.

You almost have it right. Hire a Republican and a Democrat. Treat the Republican well because he will work hard for you. Be a total ass to the Democrat employee and when he threatens to quit just remind him that quitting will invalidate his unemployment benefits. Also remind him how scarce jobs are and that it continues to get worse under his dream President.

The way to get back is to own your own business

Except that would pretty much preclude you from being a democrat, wouldn't it, cum-drop?

The way to get back is to own your own business

You'd be one of the large percentage of small business that fail in the first year. In the public sector you actually have to have something people want or you will fail.

Productivity went up because people want to keep their jobs and actually are working. But let's blame Republicans. Perhaps many of the firings went to unproductive employees. Now that is a novel idea.

#13 | Posted by KBM

Survival of the fittest.

In the public sector you actually have to have something people want or you will fail.

#12 | Posted by STIRSUMUP

Supply and demand is a completely foreign concept to Liberals. The only language they understand is brute force, as in taxing people and forcing people to do stuff under penalty of law.

Perhaps many of the firings went to unproductive employees. Now that is a novel idea.

#13 | Posted by KBM at 2009-08-13 08:13 AM

Not in unions shops where they keep jackasses who have been there a long time, but fire productive people who are unlucky enough to have been the last to have been hired.

I was talking to one of my clients who runs a small construction business. He has let all his employees go because of the slowdown. He is only getting smaller jobs but making more money than before. He had employees who laid out when he was slammed. They went first. His biggest problem now is the same as mine. Getting people to pay and on time.

Americans Working Harder, Earning Less

No kidding?

Did we honestly think that getting a high-school education, at best, and then working on a line performing truly mindless work; and THEN, getting compenstated $50K per year plus huge bennies AND pension was sustainable???

There is only so much wealth in the world. The end result of globalization has to be that the standard of living for poorer country increases while the standard of living for wealtheir countries decreases. There is no other way it can work. Yet, we listen when people tell us otherwise.

The end result of globalization has to be that the standard of living for poorer country increases while the standard of living for wealtheir countries decreases. There is no other way it can work. Yet, we listen when people tell us otherwise.

#19 | Posted by Sully at 2009-08-14 08:00 AM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e

BINGO!

I see it constantly. as underdeveloped nations come online we continually decrease numbers, inturn our employees have to take on more if we are to compete.

My job has grown threefold as attrition does it's thing...

you better be mean and lean if you are to survive.

A personal 25% reduction in benefits and pay this year.
10% for EVERYONE at one of my customers (30B in revenue)

Hard not to show a little "productivity" with this in play.

#21 | Posted by YAV

What are you driving at?

You completely lost me with that comment.

Meanwhile corporations that outsource jobs make out like bandits and people worry that we might change "the best (most expensive) health care system in the world" which sucks up 16% of GDP as opposed to 10% for other industrialized countries.
It isn't rocket science to see where the gains in productivity pay off....in health care costs. The insurance companies suck up any gains and will continue to do so as long as we let them.
BTW, I know more Dems who own businesses than Rethugs.

We can never compete against China's workforce when it comes to producing consumer goods at a cheap price. Our only salvation is to be the owners of the means of productions (which the Chinese Gov't will not let you do for very long). The only other salvation is for us to keep the lead in R&D aand creating new industries and not import those to other countries. But as long as jobs become more and more portable then our standard of living is bound to be diluted.

Did we honestly think that getting a high-school education, at best, and then working on a line performing truly mindless work; and THEN, getting compenstated $50K per year plus huge bennies AND pension was sustainable???

#18 | Posted by JeffJ at 2009-08-14 07:50 AM | Reply | Flag:

Golly!

It worked for 15 years -- after we bombed Europe and Japan into the stone age.

To Liberal union thugs, that is the way it was always supposed to be.

Whodathunk the Germans and the Japs would rebuild their industry and want to compete?

The casino industry blossomed in the 90s because it employed all those brain-dead Democrats who previously stapled fabric to cheap furniture.

BTW, I know more Dems who own businesses than Rethugs.

#23 | Posted by danni at 2009-08-14 08:45 AM | Reply | Flag:

Do their employees have health insurance?

Do they expense personal things to the business?

Are they honest on their taxes?

Maybe we should bomb Japan, Europe, AND China. Just an idea.

"Do their employees have health insurance?

Do they expense personal things to the business?

Are they honest on their taxes?"

The absolutely do provide health care insurance and other things, they generally treat their employees far better than the Republicans I know, though that isn't an absolute because I happen to work for a pretty decent Republican though I suspect he is wavering in his support for them these days.

"Spread the Wealth" style socialist believe that there is a limited amount of wealth, and that the important thing is to spread it 'fairly'. They focus on 'fairly' cutting a pie that they dont believe will shrink or expand.

People with functioning brains understand that 'wealth' is created by human effort. They understand that making a bigger pie means it becomes a hell of a lot easier to cut bigger slices. They also understand stupid economic policy can drasticly SHRINK the pie, making it impossible to sustain even existing pie slice sizes, let alone trying to expand slice size or add more slices.

"It worked for 15 years -- after we bombed Europe and Japan into the stone age."

We also protected our industry during those years, had a tax code that encouraged investment into domestic industry and generally were a better country before Nixon/Reagan/Bush/Clinton/
Bush.

Reaganomics destroyed America.

What are you driving at?
You completely lost me with that comment.

The title of the thread? The article?

No one I know is working less hard, but they and myself included, are working for less compensation.

The Republicans on this thread are attributing the "less pay" for output to "productivity."

Bullshit.

BTW, I know more Dems who own businesses than Rethugs.

#23 | Posted by danni

I know more Dems who have had their hands out since Jan. 20th, so there.

Only problem USAF242, the investment which should be enlarging the pie here is being invested in China and India. That one little detail derails your ideological belief system that has caused our economy to actually shrink.
Come on, do you really think outsourcing is good for this country???

Welcome to a global economy, Yav.

Did you honestly believe that an assembly-line job could result in the 'American Dream' forever?

Did you believe that other people, around the globe, would NOT under-bid this and, in the process, vastly improve their standard-of-living?

"There is only so much wealth in the world."

We may have SULLY on the DR and a socialist in the WH but Marx and his ideas died years ago. Ubama believes that the pie is only so big and he has to take from "rich white people" to give to his black ACORN buddies but all one has to do is compare the 50 year divergence of the economies of North and South Korea to see that the pie grew by a huge amount in the capatist South and shrank in the Communist North to see the fallacy of Obama's stupid socialist argument.

BTW, I know more Dems who own businesses than Rethugs.

#23 | Posted by danni
* * * *

Then maybe you need to tell them to quit being cheap bastards when it comes to bennies and pay. Did you read the headline or not? Sounds like they're the biggest part of the problem. Come on bitches! You voted for Obama! Pay up dudes!

"Welcome to a global economy, Yav."

Baloney. It is welcome to the illusion of a global economy. China, Japan, S. Korea all protect their markets from American products, it is only the U.S. who operates under the false premise of Free Trade and we only do so because transnational corporations can make huge profits buying in China and selling here. The recent economic downturn has even them considering that when you destroy the American economy you also destroy your own market for those goods. We built this country protecting our industries and we will destroy it by not doing so.

"Then maybe you need to tell them to quit being cheap bastards when it comes to bennies and pay."

The one's I know have been generous and profitable too. They are generally in industries where higher educational levels are required so they aren't competing with illegal alien labor so much.

I don't care if Republicans or Democrats are the ones to expand the economy, there by resulting in more wealth.

It does not matter to me which party does it.

Republicans talk about it, but FAILED miserably.

Prior to the republican grand FAILURE, the democrats only suggested even WORSE policy.

Now the democrats are actively trying to carry through even worse policy than the republican failure.

Given a choice between bad and worse, I'll take bad every time, but I'd leap at an electable party that would really and truely try and balance the budget and start paying down the debt.

If an expansion of the economy is the desired result, and I agree that it is, then it would seem that we should look to our history and see which periods had the greatest growth. If you do that you will see that ironicly when we had much higher tax rates on the rich and protections for American industry in place, our economy expanded at an incredible rate. If we don't learn from history then I doubt seriously we will ever solve the problems we have today. If a person has an open mind and looks at the results of Reaganomics it becomes obvious that it caused the deterioration of our manufacturing sector and increased our national debt. The fact that tax savings created by Reagan and Bush have not been invested in the United States is pretty obvious, while investments in China and India have increased tremendously. Our tax and our trade policies have caused our troubles yet so many are still chanting the same mantras that got us into this mess in the first place.

Reaganomics destroyed America.

#30 | Posted by danni

Obamanomics ain't doing a bad job either. Obamageddon is coming.

"Obamanomics ain't doing a bad job either. Obamageddon is coming."

You haven't seen any Obamanomics yet, all you have seen is emergency reaction to a crisis left at by Bush. Let things stabilize and then we'll see what he has in mind. During the campaign he did express interest in reexamining NAFTA and hopefully all of our trade policies.

BTW, I know more Dems who own businesses than Rethugs.

statistically impossible.

Ray,

This is a novel-worthy question, but please compare and contrast Reaganomics-vs-Obamanoics and relate the 2 'philosophies' to your personal beliefs.

My question has zilch to do with party - and I would hope that you could condense your opinion to a handful of paragraphs, given your undertanding of my views.

"You haven't seen any Obamanomics yet,"

What a scary statement!

There is only so much wealth in the world. The end result of globalization has to be that the standard of living for poorer country increases while the standard of living for wealtheir countries decreases. There is no other way it can work. Yet, we listen when people tell us otherwise.

#19 | Posted by Sully at 2009-08-14 08:00 AM | Reply | Flag: Lucidity.

Not only between countries, but between social classes as well. There have been huge transfers of wealth from NA to foreign countries, but also from the middle and lower classes in NA to the upper class...and, like you said, there are only so many beans to go around.

statistically impossible.

#43 | Posted by eberly

Small-business owners have long been considered reliable voters for the Republican Party. Republicans, after all, were thought more likely to give them tax breaks and not pile on burdensome regulations that cost money and time.

But there's evidence that small-business owners may have swung a little further left this election.

A recent analysis of election contribution data, reported recently by USA Today, found that Obama out-raised McCain, $20.5 million to $13.4 million, among contributors in the "miscellaneous business" sector, which includes many small businesses. (Those numbers don't include September and October, when McCain wasn't taking private donations.) What's more about 5,845 contributors who classified themselves as "CEO" or "chief executive" gave money to Obama, compared with 2,597 of McCain donors. These numbers are almost opposite what happened in the 2004 election, when a far greater number of business owners and leaders contributed to President Bush compared with Democratic Sen. John Kerry.

Some pre-election polls also showed that entrepreneurs were pretty evenly split between Obama supporters and McCain supporters again, in contrast to previous elections where the Republican candidate was clearly the favorite.

"Overall, we have seen a swing from Republican to Democrat" in this election, said Todd McCracken, president of the bipartisan National Small Business Association in an interview yesterday. One explanation could be young entrepreneurs. Younger voters tilt heavily toward Obama and the Democratic Party in general, and young entrepreneurs likely do so as well.

He also thinks the perception that small-business owners have traditionally been overwhelmingly Republican is perhaps somewhat overblown. It could be Republican business owners are more outspoken about their political beliefs. But Mr. McCracken quickly pointed out that, "You may have small-business owners who consider themselves Democrat but don't want to see their taxes go up."

Bedways is rightways.

Take care, all.

This is exactly what those with a stranglehold on Washington want. $27 trillion for us, nothing for you.

It will never change unless people take to the streets and Cheney prepared Government of, by and for the Corporation for just such an event. Truck mounted microwave machines and lotsa prisons.

"There have been huge transfers of wealth from NA to foreign countries, but also from the middle and lower classes in NA to the upper class...and, like you said, there are only so many beans to go around."

And, to make matters worse, that additional wealth has been invested in India, China, Vietnam, etc. Not only are they building factories in those countries but outsourcing the jobs from here to there while we idiotically give them more and more tax breaks. We need to repeal not just the Bush tax cuts but also the Reagan tax cuts and force that investment to either be made in the US or let them pay those same funds out in taxes. We need to totally eliminate any business deduction for any investment made overseas. Only investment here should gain any tax benefit. Trust me, our trade competitors are doing that and laughing at us for not doing it.

We need to repeal not just the Bush tax cuts but also the Reagan tax cuts and force that investment to either be made in the US or let them pay those same.......

every congress and every president has to deal with what they are handed by the previous folks who held those positions. Obama/dems have the power to do this. right???

Also, specifically what bill or what change did Reagan enact to give a tax deduction to businesses to invest overseas. seriously, not baiting...just can't find it.

"You may have small-business owners who consider themselves Democrat but don't want to see their taxes go up."

selfish bastards.

in any case, don't misinterpret it to mean that these folks in any way share the same extremist beliefs the left wing wackos on this sight share.

"The American work force produced 6.4 more in the second quarter of this year"

6.4 more WHAT? M&Ms?

Jeff asks: This is a novel-worthy question, but please compare and contrast Reaganomics-vs-Obamanoics and relate the 2 'philosophies' to your personal beliefs.

Spend, spend, spend. Borrow, borrow, borrow. The only difference is that the deficits have accumulated to a level where they can no longer be sustained. I think the Obama gang knows that. They hate capitalism and they are out to destroy it. And they will.

I am not trying to pin you down - just trying to better understand your POV.

You should know by now that I'm not shy about stating my views.

You haven't seen any Obamanomics yet, all you have seen is emergency reaction to a crisis left at by Bush. Let things stabilize and then we'll see what he has in mind. During the campaign he did express interest in reexamining NAFTA and hopefully all of our trade policies.

#42 | Posted by danni

Go right ahead and keep making excuses. Your socialist paradise is crumbling and falling apart.

"It was the Reagan administration that launched the Uruguay Round of multilateral trade negotiations in 1986 that lowered global tariffs and created the World Trade Organization. It was his administration that won approval of the U.S.-Canada Free Trade Agreement in 1988. That agreement soon expanded to include Mexico in what became the North American Free Trade Agreement, realizing a vision that Reagan first articulated in the 1980 campaign. It was Reagan who vetoed protectionist textile quota bills in 1985 and 1988.

During Reagan's eight years in office, Americans eagerly expanded their engagement in the global economy. In 1980, the year before Reagan became president, Americans spent a total of $334 billion on imported goods and services and payments on foreign investment in the United States. By 1988, his last year in office, American spending in the global economy had nearly doubled, to $663 billion. If Reagan was a "protectionist," it had no discernable effect on the ability of Americans to spend freely in the global marketplace. Fittingly, one of the major federal buildings on Pennsylvania Avenue is named the Ronald Reagan Building and International Trade Center."

Thanks for posting that Danni.

However, I wouldn't call what we have a "diaster". I know you do. I'm not saying that is is good that we send so many jobs overseas but there are always other sides in this.

Textile jobs and shoe making jobs got sent overseas. If we just focus on those jobs for a minute.......those are very low skill, very low paying jobs that, if were here today, would be occupied by illegal immigrants.

Do you want them back?

".......those are very low skill, very low paying jobs that, if were here today, would be occupied by illegal immigrants.

Do you want them back?"

Absolutely. They would be paying taxes, they would increase the number of people paying into SS, increasing wealth within this country. Every dollar that flows out of the country lessens the wealth of the country. Fact is we have millions of unemployed low skill people who would happily take those jobs, they aren't going anywhere but the jobs did. Those people are not going to go to college and become high tech workers and besides, we are now outsourcing millions of white collar jobs too. We even let government outsource white collar jobs.
American Express is outsourcing thousands right now, why they should be called "American" Express is beyond me.

Are you advocating a non-interventionalist form of global trade on the part of America and American business, and therefore also looking for a non-interventionalist form of foreign policy?

#56 | Posted by danni

In her little socialist mind, Danni is actually taking the side of the corporations she hates. They've long been advocates of protection from foreign competition, all the way back to Victoria England. It was called mercantilism then.

Free trade benefits consumers who have access to cheaper imports, those same shoppers who flock to Walmart. One in nine Americans are now depending on food stamps and Danni wants to make them poorer by forcing them to buy more expensive American goods.

Not if your at the top if your in the top 5 its less work for more pay. That is important to note. Those at the top keep cutting benefits and salaries for everyone but themselves.

WTO and NAFTA are free trade organizations in name only. In practice, they have a complicated set of trade rules and a tribunal to settle disputes between corporations. The trade rules are designed to keep domestic and foreign corporations from invading each other's market.

Keep up whining, Danni. You're only asking to be screwed and you are.

first clue, Captain Obvious, please? i'm waiting...

It is welcome to the illusion of a global economy. China, Japan, S. Korea all protect their markets from American products, it is only the U.S. who operates under the false premise of Free Trade and we only do so because .... blather, blather blather

#37 | Posted by danni at 2009-08-14 09:11 AM | Reply | Flag:

Speaking as someone who lives in Asia and travels throughout the region, I see plenty of competitive American products everywhere I go.

But they tend to be high-end products with a lot of intellectual content.

If all you do is shop at Wal-Mart, Danni, I can see how you would get a distorted sense of reality.

"Free trade benefits consumers who have access to cheaper imports, those same shoppers who flock to Walmart."

Wages create demand for goods, as we have seen of late, when wages stagnate demand falls and recessions or even depressions occur. Cheap goods will never create jobs and only jobs will create wages Ray. We are in a death spiral of outsourcing jobs and cheap foreign goods, our economy is bleeding money overseas and our wealth is dwindling. The balance of trade is s far out of balance that it takes a lunatic like you to think that there is anything except disaster in store for us if we continue down this crazy road.

BTW, you claim that corporations are advocates for protectionism are bull shit, the big players are transnational corporations who only care about where the cheapest labor is and where the most lucrative market is. Free trade allows them to profit from both but drains both countries of resources, environmental destruction, education, etc. Only the transnational corporation benefits in the long run, don't believe me, ask Mexico how free trade worked out for them. It was great until the corporations outsourced those jobs to China because it was even cheaper than Mexico, why do you think there are so many illegal immigrants in the first place. YOu lack all logic in your attempts to prove crazy Austrian economic theories that Austrians themselves would NEVER allow to be the basis for their own economy.

Textile jobs and shoe making jobs got sent overseas. If we just focus on those jobs for a minute.......those are very low skill, very low paying jobs that, if were here today, would be occupied by illegal immigrants.

Do you want them back?

#57 | Posted by eberly at 2009-08-14 10:36 AM | Reply | Flag:

Eberly, that was the beginning. AT that time everyone was harping about the future being in IT engineering and programming, because they were knowledge based careers. It only took 10 years for these jobs to also be outsourced, mainly to India, more and more to other countries. Aerospace is another good example...seattle is being whittled by outsourcing to mexico, brezil, etc.

To state that only low paying jobs are outsourced is a fallacy. As time moves on and these other countries ramp up with education and knowledge, fewer and fewer jobs will be safe.

Not if your at the top if your in the top 5 its less work for more pay. That is important to note. Those at the top keep cutting benefits and salaries for everyone but themselves.

You worry too much about what others make, banksters excepted. It's insignificant compared the damage government is doing. I think you'll see a rough correlation between outrageous CEO benefits and government largess.

What is interesting is that I never see complaints about the millions celebrities make, only what capitalists make.

"Do you want them back?"

Absolutely. They would be paying taxes, they would increase the number of people paying into SS, increasing wealth within this country.

I wholeheartedly disagree. The wealth would be increasing for the top levels only. These shitty wage jobs would be a drain on our economy, these folks would not have healthcare and folks like you would be complaining about how we can't take care of these people and their families as they would be slugging it out with illegals for these shitty jobs.

It simply wouldn't work.

Americans are gonna buy cheap goods one way or another.

this is right and the tax freedom day that we just hit where we are no longer working for the govt was 25 days later than last year

throw all the bums out

Do you want them back?"

Absolutely. They would be paying taxes, they would increase the number of people paying into SS, increasing wealth

#58 | Posted by danni at 2009-08-14 10:41 AM | Reply | Flag:

And hard working poor people could not afford to buy underwear at $17 a pair.

Danni, why do you hate hard working poor Americans?

-----------

When low skill, low-wage jobs go to other countries it means hard working poor people there can feed their families.

Danni, why do you want to starve poor children in Madagascar? Why do you hate them so much? Is it because they are just brown people? Why do you hate brown people?

"""But they tend to be high-end products with a lot of intellectual content. """

Like what for example?

Republicans sure love their slaves. Thirty years of propaganda has too many Americans unable to think. Work harder, work harder, and for what? So a few can take billions home with them that's what. What do the rest of us take home along with our fine standard of living? Stress, inability to sleep, legal drugs to keep us going, kids raised by others, etc.

Life is short. Are you sure you want to give yours to the blood suckers?

#18 | Posted by JeffJ

You have hit the nail right on the head.

If uou can be replace by a robot, you realy arn't worth very much to your employer.

It only took 10 years for these jobs to also be outsourced, mainly to India, more and more to other countries.

Manypaths is one of the most liberal posters here. (for whatever that is worth) He would argue with you as his job is placing IT folks in jobs. He claims that the jobs you are referring to are shitty low skill jobs that are offshored.

Furthermore, he contends that actual skilled IT folks are in very high demand right here.

To state that only low paying jobs are outsourced is a fallacy. As time moves on and these other countries ramp up with education and knowledge, fewer and fewer jobs will be safe.

then we are fucked either way. We can't legislate our way out of this problem.

Danni

Wages create demand for goods, as we have seen of late, when wages stagnate demand falls and recessions or even depressions occur. Cheap goods will never create jobs and only jobs will create wages Ray.

You are confusing cause with effect. Higher wages are impossible without entrepreneurship, savings and production. If you protect wages, you drive down production.

It's know as Say's Law: "Say's law, or the law of markets, is an economic proposition attributed to French businessman and economist Jean-Baptiste Say (17671832), which states that in a free market economy goods and services are produced for exchange with other goods and services, and in the process a precisely sufficient level of real income is created in order to purchase the economy's entire output. That is to say, the total supply of goods and services in a purely free market economy will exactly equal the total demand during any given time period in modern terms, "there will never be a general glut", though there may be local imbalances, with gluts in one market balanced by shortages in others."

"These shitty wage jobs would be a drain on our economy, these folks would not have healthcare and folks like you would be complaining about how we can't take care of these people and their families as they would be slugging it out with illegals for these shitty jobs."

Unfortunately Eberly, we have millions of people who can't do anything else besides low skilled jobs. Funny how we managed very well for two hundred years making those goods. What is better, having low skilled jobs for those people or having millions of them just unemployed???
When you factor in transportation costs the difference in cost to make it here isn't all that much when you consider that foreign nations are subsidizing their manufacturing sectors, which is against the rules of WTO but they do it anyway. Only the US plays fair and we are getting screwed by it.

This countries Corporations had a plan. We were to become an information Society, outsource manufacturing, union busting. Our Government is on board with this plan. Greenspan stated on the News Hour that American's make too much money even as he stashed $1 billion in the Cayman Islands.

The planned demolition of our economy is working. Only large public demonstrations will stop it. But that mechanism currently belongs to teabaggers and health care opponents, who unwittingly support the Corporate Plan.

Republicans sure love their slaves.

what? what I am seeing are democrats who want to keep slave like jobs here and inevitable creating a bigger incentive for illegals to come here.

Has it occurred to anybody that our illegal immigration problem would be even worse if we had these jobs here for them to come get?

"""Furthermore, he contends that actual skilled IT folks are in very high demand right here."""

As were many well paid manufacturing jobs during the ramp up period, then the floodgates where opened. Have you checked education figures in india or china lately? Compared them to yours? As access to education in your country becomes more and more difficult, these countries are producing a highly educated workforce in huge quantities.

Here's a bit of an analysis from an HR perspective:

Unfortunately Eberly, we have millions of people who can't do anything else besides low skilled jobs. Funny how we managed very well for two hundred years making those goods. What is better, having low skilled jobs for those people or having millions of them just unemployed???
When you factor in transportation costs the difference in cost to make it here isn't all that much when you consider that foreign nations are subsidizing their manufacturing sectors, which is against the rules of WTO but they do it anyway. Only the US plays fair and we are getting screwed by it.

#77 | Posted by danni at 2009-08-14 11

how nice on a friday to ALMOST agree with you..

so tell me...in this senario of yours..how do illegals screw it all up.........as in your first statement about we have gotten along fine for some time now..seems to me that illegals might have made a difference...whatdayasay????

Funny how we managed very well for two hundred years making those goods.

completely irrelevant. we have airplanes, computers and a global economy. Actually I'm glad you posted that. It shows why you are so unable to accept reality.

What is better, having low skilled jobs for those people or having millions of them just unemployed???

unemployment has remained very low (until recession) despite the offshoring of these jobs.

you just proved that the opposite has occurred as a result of offshoring low skill jobs.

I can't believe anybody can assert the notion that we should want sweatshop jobs back.

friggin crazy.

gotta go

"unemployment has remained very low (until recession) despite the offshoring of these jobs."

If you believe the figures that the government uses which ignore anyone out of work for more than six months or who isn't recieving unemployment benefits. And that doesn't take into account underemployment, working for minimum wage or close to it at Walmart or something is hardly a replacement for good paying manufacturing jobs.

Ironically, the cure may not necessarily be protectionism, it may just be the hated cap and trade with will make shipping expense become higher and make exporting raw materials to China just to ship them back as finished goods uneconomical.

"I can't believe anybody can assert the notion that we should want sweatshop jobs back."

Low skill manufacturing wasn't all done in "sweat shops", most of it was done in factories with labor protections in place, decent wages, etc. I can't believe that we want cheap goods so badly that we would let transnational corps have them made in sweat shops overseas and somehow that makes it morally acceptable because it isn't here.

but wouldnt the end of those cheap goods hurt the people who dems say they help the most or even factually...wouldnt that hurt the poor more than anyothers...

Jobs don't hurt poor people as much as unemployment does. If you don't want to bring back low skill manufacturing jobs then fine but don't bitch about welfare.

But that mechanism currently belongs to teabaggers and health care opponents, who unwittingly support the Corporate Plan.

#78 | Posted by nutcase

Now I know how you got your name nutsack. You seem to like the thought of them in your face.

Back to the point at hand. Why do companies send their manufacturing off shore?

1. Environemental laws
2. Cheep labor
3. Cheep taxes

What part of big government don't you understand?

The only true solution to this problem is a re-evaluation of what we consider as wealth, important and expensive.
Due to America's false sense of wealth and importance in materials and products prices are higher. If people were to live more simply, life would not be as expensive and people would be able to afford goods at a higher price, so long as those goods are at a higher quality.

The problem with good and price is that today, all goods are made to be disposable. If a good or product breaks, it is almost not worth fixing any good these days, and therefore better to buy a new one. When products get more expensive, and remain the same quality because they are made it America now, things will still be disposable and also now expensive. It will not be worth fixing, however people will not be able to get another one.

We must either:
1. Get better workers, who do a better job (we are lacking in that area)
2. Make more quality products that are worth the more expensive price (again, lacking here and everywhere)
3. Live more simply, fiscally responsible (lacking)
4. Lose the materialistic sideshow that takes place in every part of our lives (lacking)

It is not simply about jobs and where they are, we do not have the work ethic in america to get the job done that you propose Danni.

How are you going to turn lazy America into "I actually want to work for my living" America?
Welfare is not helping that
Government handouts is not helping that
Government benefits are not helping that.
People need to learn how to be more independent, not more dependent. The government cannot keep legislating our lives and our fiscal concerns, that is how we got in this lazy position the way it is.
Unions have hindered shortly after conception. Power corrupts, status corrupts, goods corrupt.

Frankly there is almost nothing we can do to absolve the situation by our means.

"It is not simply about jobs and where they are, we do not have the work ethic in america to get the job done that you propose Danni."

What an idiot. Americans are some of the most productive workers in the world.

"Why do companies send their manufacturing off shore?

1. Environemental laws
2. Cheep labor
3. Cheep taxes"

And why would they not send manufacturing off shore???

1. We don't let them bring their cheap shit here.
2. We don't let them bring their cheap shit here.
3. We don't let them bring their cheap shit here.

America doesn't have to be a victim of transnational corporations, we have a choice.

Higher productivity and less workers. Where have we seen that before? Agriculture, then manufacturing, then paper-pushing jobs, etc. The 20/80 society is coming.

20 percent of the working age population will be enough in the coming century to keep the world economy going. "More workers will not be needed", said magnate Washington SyCip. A fifth of all jobseekers will be enough to produce all the goods and perform all the top-flight services that the world society can afford. This 20 percent will actively participate in living, earning and consuming. One or two percent may be added, the discussants admit, perhaps wealthy heirs.

What about the others? Will 80 percent of those willing to work be without a job? "Certainly", says the US author Jeremy Rifkin, author of the book "The End of Work". "80 percent will have enormous problems." Sun manager Gage puts some more coal on the fire and appeals to his boss Scott McNealy: The question in the future will be "to have lunch or be lunch", to eat or be devoured.

"It is not simply about jobs and where they are, we do not have the work ethic in america to get the job done that you propose Danni."

What an idiot. Americans are some of the most productive workers in the world.

Danni, don't call me an idiot. Is that all you can come up with is personal attacks on people because it goes against you philosophy. You must face the facts that Government intercession with the people is not helping them become less lazy.

Also, the World is a BIG place. jut being SOME of the MOST workers in the world is not enough.

Americans are also SOME of the laziest people in the world. Americans are also SOME of the least educationaly capable people in the world when it comes to testing etc. Americans are also SOME of the most obese people in the world.

Americans don't like to work, that is why the jobs went overseas in the first place.

We think we need certain wages that we don't really need, because we try to hold a standard of living which is not really standard. We have too much for our own good, it has made us lazy and complacent. Every foreigner that comes to American that I know, as a citizen to work makes it a point to emphasize how shocked they are to find that American's are as lazy as they are. They see that Americans don't want to work. It is sad that you are here and you don't see that.

Americans are some of the most productive workers in the world.

#90 | Posted by danni at 2009-08-14

not for long if things keep going as they seem to be....

proof is clip from the new york giveaway

woman heard to say

Thank God for obama.,..he is looking out for us...

give me give me give me give me give me

the REAL lesson of the pilgrims is the best way to see how this could play out....

"It is sad that you are here and you don't see that."

You don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about. Blaming American workers is such a cop out for complicated issues that you have no understanding of. Thinking that our living standard is too high is exactly what the CEOs of transnational corporations want you to think. REad the article attached at the top of the thread, I don't want to call you an idiot, so I'll just let it go at uninformed and, apparen'ly, unwilling to learn.

"not for long if things keep going as they seem to be...."

Did you even read the article at the top of this thread???? American productivity has gone up almost every year for the last thirty years while wages have been stagnant and now even moving backwards. Wait a minute AFKABL2, do you even know what productivity is???

"That is to say, the total supply of goods and services in a purely free market economy will exactly equal the total demand during any given time period in modern terms, "there will never be a general glut", though there may be local imbalances, with gluts in one market balanced by shortages in others."

There is no such thing as a "purely free market" nor will there ever be. That is the core problem with some economists - they keep saying crap ;like this which has minimal reference to reality.

"Americans are also SOME of the laziest people in the world."

False. Some Americans are very lazy. But the U.S. has always lived up to its hackneyed fascination with the "Protestant ethic".

Hey Danni,

I read your article, I understand the productivity is going up in certain degrees in certain areas. However, product quality.... going down... willingness to work... going down.... personal responsibility for finances... going down. You see productivity is not just formulated by product number increasing, it takes into account all aspects of the nation. More productivity of crap just means you made more crap. Not helpful.

Secondly. I am informed plenty about what you want me to believe or think, however America is becoming lazier. I think for the past 20 years or so wages at higher levels have been going up to a point of not being deserved. People were getting paid more than what they were producing.

If pay goes up, then price goes up because people are always going to need more stuff in America. Until that changes, we are stuck in trend.

The more people demand, the more prices go up and you never gain any ground because all your extra money buys is more expensive crap that is going to fall apart and you will need to buy more.

If our wages go down a little we are unwilling to work, even if we already get paid too much for what we are doing. Live simply, we will be fine.

You just refuse to do that. We need to remove welfare, remove government subsidiary of individual fiscal responsibility. people get dependent, complacent and lazy. More government control, more handouts, more lazy people, more crap product, call for higher wages to produce higher amounts of crap and again, nothing changes.

You only choose to interact with and respond to certain aspects of a persons argument. That is no counter argument at all.

That Americans are working harder for less compensation is hardly news. This has been the trend for many years. It is the inevitable outcome of outsourcing because it creates a situation where the eligible number of workers remains the same but the supply of jobs decreases. This was previously balanced by low unemployment so the job pool would be low enough to avoid employers being able to get by with lower wages. Now the process is to simply outsource overseas and bypass the process.

This recession is only the first step in the payback for lower wages. Because workers in the U.S. make less money, they must therefore spend less. That shortfall re income for companies will _not_ be made up overseas because those workers make even less. So companies make less money and can afford even fewer American workers. And so the downward spiral continues - and the country will get fucked.

You make all sorts of claims about American workers but you ignore the FACT that productivity is up not down. You can't say American workers are lazier when their productivity is increasing. YOu don't base you idea on any facts you just make claims unsupported by facts. Sorry but you are poorly informed.

Actually Danni,
We in American are not more productive as human beings, but rather as machine operators and computer technicians.

We as a physical person in America do less work, and want more money for it. If your job is super easy, you should get the pay of a super easy job. If you have labor involved, you should get payed more for your effort.

You still fail to touch on the points of the argument that you have thus far chosen not to discuss.

I know productivity is up, but what we are producing is down in quality. Is that really wonderful? I can decrease quality and increase productivity very easily. No skin of my back. It is easy to make more of something that is easier to make and of a lower quality. That is what is happening. Although this slips your mind.

Danni,

"American productivity has gone up almost every year for the last thirty years while wages have been stagnant and now even moving backwards."

Productivity being GDP per hours worked. 50% of the GDP is financial industry. Very few people contribute to a large portion of our GDP. As of 2004 manufacturing accounts for less than government in the GDP calculation.

Unfortunately, you cannot relate productivity gains on the average manufacture worker, as thier contribution to the GDP diminishes year to year, as a percentage of GDP. Thus your statement above is both true, and logical.

""U.N.: U.S. workers are world's most productive
Americans also work longer than counterparts in rich states, report says
GENEVA - American workers stay longer in the office, at the factory or on the farm than their counterparts in Europe and most other rich nations, and they produce more per person over the year.

They also get more done per hour than everyone but the Norwegians, according to a U.N. report released Monday, which said the United States "leads the world in labor productivity."

The average U.S. worker produces $63,885 of wealth per year, more than their counterparts in all other countries, the International Labor Organization said in its report. Ireland comes in second at $55,986, followed by Luxembourg at $55,641, Belgium at $55,235 and France at $54,609.""

You just refuse to do that. We need to remove welfare, remove government subsidiary of individual fiscal responsibility. people get dependent, complacent and lazy. More government control, more handouts, more lazy people, more crap product, call for higher wages to produce higher amounts of crap and again, nothing changes.

#97 | POSTED BY EXPSREDEMPTION

What a load of shit..Let me guess your party affiliation.. Republican.

You ASSUME wrongly that all americans are lazy and that the only way to get rid of laziness is to eliminate safety nets for the weak that dwell in America.

Newsflash bunky.. Huge numbers of jobs have been shipped over seas that could have easily taken up the slack of the least educated workers in this country which is symptomatic of many issues but not "welfare" as you so state.

Do some research on the CBO website before spouting stupid shit with broad, sweeping, unfounded and incoherent statements about "American work ethic".

False. Some Americans are very lazy. But the U.S. has always lived up to its hackneyed fascination with the "Protestant ethic".

#96 | POSTED BY AILTD

ditto..

The reason that our wages are going down is because the manuf. jobs are going away and we have become a nation of "sheet changers and pillow fluffers" and "Berger flippers". The damn call centers are even going overseas and you can only understand 1/2 of what they say.

#1 Not Republican, but Libertarian
#2 Increase of production has no benefit if you are producing crappier products. Also if you are producing crappier products by working longer hours just so you can buy your expensive crap that you think you need.
#3 If people were so willing to do these low level jobs, why were they not taken? Why did they not work them? We always have a flow of people who can work the bottom, and work their way up. You must start at the bottom. It is difficult, but it must be done.

I am an American worker, I see lazy workers all around me. I work with foreign workers, their work ethic, and productivity is much higher. They also have a better attitude toward work. Their works quality is also much higher, with higher standards.

You cannot tell me that people don't ride welfare and count on the government to provide their needs. People should only be involved with social security if they need to be, if they have the difficulty. We should take care of our own retirement, we could do that if we had lesser expectations of the richness of retirment and comfortable living.

Harass me all you want. You are refusing to look at the other side of the coin. And that other side of the coin is QUALITY.

"You cannot tell me that people don't ride welfare and count on the government to provide their needs."

If there are no jobs what would you recommend. Bring back manufacturing or quit bitching about welfare.

"You are refusing to look at the other side of the coin. And that other side of the coin is QUALITY."

Many studies have found American made cars just as good as any foreign makes. Next talking point....

Oh really? Why do they get less milage? Why are they more expensive? Why do they often cost more to fix? Why are they fixed more often? I don't think that American made cars really discusses the whole of American products. Also, they are produced via an assembly line, not by hand.

Secondly, like I said, if these people were willing to take the lower level jobs, why didn't they take them, and then work their way up?

1. They wanted higher wages, to buy more things immediatly
2. They thought they were better than the job, which no one is
3. They wanted to start at the top
4. It was easier to simply stay on welfare because the pay was comparable in the early stages

If the jobs were open and the people were willing, why did they leave? People wanted too much for a base level job. You have to work hard for your name, then your name will work for you. A foreign worker from Bulgaria told me this. I worked with him for a week or two on a special project, we finished a project that was to take 4 days in a day and a half. the 4 day time span was based on 4 workers at the current production rate. We came in, just two of us and cut down the time by more than half, with half the work.

We took base level jobs with base level pay and because we worked hard at it, we moved up and continued to work hard.

You are not addressing these aspects. If they are there and willing, why didn't they work the lower level jobs?

Where has this idiot been for the last ten years... Just figuring that out now?

Sad realy...

#1 Not Republican, but Libertarian

explains it even better.

Anarchist with money.

You cannot tell me that people don't ride welfare and count on the government to provide their needs. People should only be involved with social security if they need to be, if they have the difficulty. We should take care of our own retirement, we could do that if we had lesser expectations of the richness of retirment and comfortable living.
Harass me all you want. You are refusing to look at the other side of the coin. And that other side of the coin is QUALITY.

#106 | POSTED BY EXPSREDEMPTION

idiot.. what you are experiencing is called anecdotal. It is only relevant to your experience and situation not society s a whole.

I live off of less than 27K a year in COSTS.. not what I make.. COSTS (small mortgage, no car payment, no visa payments) for a family of three. Im a farmer so don't whine to me about lazy americans. You would be dead in 4 hours doing the work I do..lazy americans my ass.

"We came in, just two of us and cut down the time by more than half, with half the work."

Oh, I see, anecdotal evidence which you then pretend is indicative of the general workforce in this country. Sorry, I work hard too but I don't use my own effort as an example, statistics prove what I say about American workers.

idiot.. what you are experiencing is called anecdotal. It is only relevant to your experience and situation not society s a whole.

I live off of less than 27K a year in COSTS.. not what I make.. COSTS (small mortgage, no car payment, no visa payments) for a family of three. Im a farmer so don't whine to me about lazy americans. You would be dead in 4 hours doing the work I do..lazy americans my ass.

#111 | Posted by Legio at 2009-08-14 01:54 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
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#1 I know this, I am simply representing the point that it does happen in America in the specific so that the argument can then broaden. that is usually how arguments develop you have to have a basis and start. It grows over time. It is a progression. Kind of like what a job is supposed to be. You start in the beginning and progress through it. You don't start at the end, you have to earn the end
#2 Thanks. I am glad that you feel you are winning the imaginary competition that is taking place. You supplied an anecdotal story in rebuttal of my andecdotal story which you dismiss as non argument? Not very consistent. this is another very important aspect of arguement, consistency

#3 Character assasination attempts will not help you win a true arguement when the ultimate goal is truth and not popularity or comedic value.

#4 I am glad you are a farmer, that is very admirable (I think that is what you are going for by mentioning it) If you are not a farmer (which is possible because this is a commen aspect of arguement that attemps to bolster your case to greater capability) I don't care either, the arguement has no relevance bacause I am not whining to you about Lazy Americans. I am discussion lazy America as a whole based on what needs to be corrected for this country to turn around.

#5 Your work is very difficult, you are correct. Most people in America wouldn't be able to do that, because they are lazy. thank you for making that point. You see, way back when, that is how people survived, they had to farm and work very hard. Work ethic has been going down in America. Productivity rises because the jobs are easier and we do less and make less quality items.

#6 You know nothing about me, you do not know my physical health, ability, work ethic, profession etc. You made an emotional arguement based on the fact that you took this personally thus your anecdotal reference to your farming prowess.

#7 I hate the competition atmosphere, but I will go along with you for a moment of this foolishness.
Job 1: I am a minister of a church... for free. I work a minimum of 30 hours a week counseling, visiting, repairing and leading the congregation in different studies, services etc.
Job 2: I work for a company moving around large boxes of files, back-up documentation, audit information etc for 25 hours a week.
Job 3: I work overnight in a warehouse, also moving, organizing, packing and shipping heavy equipment for 40 hours a week.
I still find time to work out. My average sleep cycle is 2 hours or less. My money is paying off college loans, saving for future childrens education and well being. I have a car to get me to work, I have a location to sleep.

I have done farm work before. I loved it. when I get free time, I help out with farm work. In the summers when I have vacation I help out at a camp, in my free time that I am given for breaks at this camp I move large rocks 150-200 lbs from an area that needs to be cleared to the area they need to be placed. I like to work, I like to push myself. You characterization was incorrect.

I appreciate your response, but it was all emotionally based. I woul dlove to work 16 hours a day doing the work that you do, I am looking into getting into farming when I have funds to purchase the land, and live by that and still minister. I am excited to do the work you do, I find it enjoyable and not a chore. I surely would not die. I like to live with as little technology as possible, and with as little money as possible. I do not aquire goods and unecessary things. I like to give to other people, I think it is my job to do that, not the government's.

idiot.. what you are experiencing is called anecdotal. It is only relevant to your experience and situation not society s a whole.

Thank God! Wouldn't want peoples experiences to be relevant to that thing you call society.

"We came in, just two of us and cut down the time by more than half, with half the work."

Oh, I see, anecdotal evidence which you then pretend is indicative of the general workforce in this country. Sorry, I work hard too but I don't use my own effort as an example, statistics prove what I say about American workers.

#112 | Posted by danni at 2009-08-14 02:14 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
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A little slow Danni. I explain why I used that anyway. don't respond so emotionally please. Also, please respond to post # 108

Oh, I see, anecdotal evidence which you then pretend is indicative of the general workforce in this country. Sorry, I work hard too but I don't use my own effort as an example, statistics prove what I say about American workers.

#112 | Posted by danni at 2009-08-14 02:14 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
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Also, funny thing is Danni, Statistics come from a small "representative group" to be communicated to the whole. So If I share enough anecdotes of different experiences then my anecdotes will be on par with your statistics which are just anecdotes of numbers without the explanatory story?

"So If I share enough anecdotes of different experiences then my anecdotes will be on par with your statistics...?"

Of course not, and any honest statistician will tell you the same. There are rigorous standards in a proper cross-section survey to insure the respondents DON'T all know the same person.

The numbers aren't even real.... If you fire 30% of your workers... productivity rises for the remaining workers because they ar doing more to cover for the people you tossed out the door.... Then you cut the pay rate, take away vacation days and paid holidays and your numbers are through the roof...

It's called SIX SIGMA IT SHOULD BE OUTLAWED...

Has nothing to do with productivity in reality.... It is all an illusion and it will wreck this country in the end.

What corporate America has done to the working man is nothing short of criminal... The greed is so thick in the air that you can taste it when you show up for work...

80% of the people who work for IBM are subcontractors..... They don't hire direct any more.... This means you are rented to them from an agency... You will never see a single raise... In fact IBM cut our pay by 10% this year... Then the contractor company took away all paid holidays and vacation days... Now that's productive....

This is not Capitalism This is pure greed in it's worst form... Here are the stats on IBM stock

Price
117.840 Change -1.740 % Change -1.455

52-Week High (08/14/08)128.25
52-Week Low (11/21/08)69.50

Ne reason to cut everyones pay rate by 10% when your stock is sailing along at over 100 bucks a share... The stock was well over 100 when they cut us too... It's just greed...

Almost every corporation in America and around the world that has adapted the Six Sigms system is doing almost the exact same thing...

This is also how they get around going over seas too....
They fire all their workers and rehire through a sub contractor... No benifits to pay for and no payroll tax... You will never have to give another employee a raise again...

This is what they have stooped to in business today... It has to be stopped.

Who wrote this damn article, it contradicts itself over and over.

More work...less pay....whats new, it the republican wet dream.

It is amusing how some people bash scientists and economists - then rely on anecdotes as "evidence". Any person with a modicum of scientific or philosophical knowledge knows anecdotes are illustrators which can also be used as supporting contributors. However, when the issue is millions of people (or whatever), unless you have 50% of that number in anecdotes, they are worthless.

The biggest concern we have in this country is the increasing ignorance and stupidity of people - which is inevitably coupled with dismissive arrogance.

The biggest concern we have in this country is the increasing ignorance and stupidity of people - which is inevitably coupled with dismissive arrogance.

I have to agree with that 100%...

Look, it may not seem fair, but how the hell do you expect the United States to remain competitive and to keep it's standard of living? We can't compete with low wage countries so we have to go up the ladder, working smarter, doing more with less, being leaner.

Yes you should pickup econ for dummies. Clearly you don't understand STANDARD OF LIVING. LOL!

Moving toward china and low wages is exactly what this article is showing. Wages normally make up about 11% of corporate expenses, if you remove the 11% it still wouldn't compete with china, so clearly you are barking up the wrong tree as all business in America.

It is so hard to believe why people just don't understand Henry Ford principle, it used to be taught in school...apparently not now.

It is amusing how some people bash scientists and economists - then rely on anecdotes as "evidence". Any person with a modicum of scientific or philosophical knowledge knows anecdotes are illustrators which can also be used as supporting contributors. However, when the issue is millions of people (or whatever), unless you have 50% of that number in anecdotes, they are worthless.

The biggest concern we have in this country is the increasing ignorance and stupidity of people - which is inevitably coupled with dismissive arrogance.

#121 | Posted by AILtd at 2009-08-14 02:50 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
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If you are speaking about my post of my comments, I did clarify that my anecdotes were simply part of the argument and not the whole argument. You must read all the posts to understand the flow of the argument between Danni and I . I presented information which was not addressed. I gave an anecdote to think about, not as factual or overarching evidence for the nation. I gave it simply to illustrate that it does happen, since people are acting so emotionally and patriotically about the possiblity of Americans as a whole being somewhat lazy.

Textile jobs and shoe making jobs got sent overseas. If we just focus on those jobs for a minute.......those are very low skill, very low paying jobs that

Fuck, I just got a good laugh at this.

How retarded and ignorant do these people remain before they realize that it isn't low skill and some idiotic idea of low paying is OK too.

The aviation industry is getting killed, the auto industry is getting killed, the machinist industry is getting killed, the engineering industry is getting killed but in some backassward classification because it is LABOR it is unskilled.

I always laugh at those who say Making clothes and such is unskilled....they couldn't do it if their life depended on it.

Such contemptuous willfull downing of the America people for the advent of single corporate profit is not shocking to them.

Corporation one individual.......millions of Americans losing for the one......such ignorance for a false economic worship.

ExpsRedemption, You honestly telling us you work 95 hours a week?

"I gave it simply to illustrate that it does happen, since people are acting so emotionally and patriotically about the possiblity of Americans as a whole being somewhat lazy."
#124 | Posted by ExpsRedemption

That could have been your intention. I won't even try to argue that. Unfortunately, the way you qualified it now was _not_ included in your original post about "lazy America". That it may happen is nowhere near a flat statement that "Americans are lazy". Which is what you need to establish to some degree before you fling out an anecdote. So, my observation stands.

The aviation industry is getting killed, the auto industry is getting killed, the machinist industry is getting killed, the engineering industry is getting killed but in some backassward classification because it is LABOR it is unskilled.

I knew crasswar couldn't leave this one alone.

I also knew he would grab my post and take it in the wrong direction.

I only commented on textile and clothes making jobs.

I always laugh at those who say Making clothes and such is unskilled....they couldn't do it if their life depended on it.

so by your definition, if I can't make a shirt to "save my life" then it isn't an unskilled job.

Or we can try MY definition.....some uneducated person with absolutely no skills whatsoever can work a machine that stitches a shirt....a job that virtually anybody can be trained to do.....this would qualify as "unskilled".

Engineers, aviation machinists.....I would agree that is different.

Such contemptuous willfull downing of the America people for the advent of single corporate profit is not shocking to them.

what amazes me is that it is "shocking" to you.

why? Why on earth are you failing to accept this?

It isn't happening because of anything you or I do....it's going to happen anyway.

wake up.

pick a cause worth fighting for.

this one is lost. you lost it a long time ago.

Free trade benefits consumers who have access to cheaper imports

I got a good laugh at this too. What a bunch of short term unrational crap.

You mean those consumers who lost their jobs who can no longer benefit from even the SUPPOSED cheaper imports?

You just spout "what was supposed to be rational economic thought of age gone by" like it is completely still rational now.

You mean those consumers who lost their jobs who can no longer benefit from even the SUPPOSED cheaper imports?

I can buy a pair of basketball shoes TODAY for the same price as I paid in high school 23 years ago.

And I'm pretty sure they are better shoes today.

If they were made here, then I would pay 3 times as much.

And I'll bet the shoe wouldn't even be as good.

"If they were made here, then I would pay 3 times as much."

Funny you mention basketball shoes. Nike was one of the pioneers of outsourcing, they paid next to nothing to have them made overseas, they still do, the also still charge over $100 for lots of styles.

Get a clue Eberly, price is determined by supply and demand not by costs. ONce a brand name establishes itself, as in the case with Nike, the cost of manufacturing has nothing to do with the selling price.
I wonder how many pairs of shoes anyone will sell here when we've outsourced everything and the nation is unemployed and impoverished. I think we will soon find out.

"I can buy a pair of basketball shoes TODAY for the same price as I paid in high school 23 years ago. And I'm pretty sure they are better shoes today."

Sneakers I bought 20 years ago always lasted me at least a year - under heavy use. The sneakers I buy today, even under limited use, don't last a year. So I would disagree.

Get a clue Eberly, price is determined by supply and demand not by costs.

why in the world would you think I don't understand that?

You can't refute my point. I paid $70 for a pair of shoes in 1987. I can buy a superior pair today for $65.

For all I know Nike has more margin built in to the pair today than they did in 1987. You are right, price is determined by supply and demand, not costs.

You are just so fucking angry you can't accept the truth about anything.

get a clue? what a tool.

Or we can try MY definition.....some uneducated person with absolutely no skills whatsoever can work a machine that stitches a shirt....a job that virtually anybody can be trained to do.....this would qualify as "unskilled".

I suppose you job is skilled and only a few can do your job???? LOL!

All jobs are TRAINED and the fact that you been afforded an education has convoluted your mind into thinking you're above training.

Education is just the length in which training takes place and is afforded to those who happen to have the economic standing to afford such.

Can you be trained to make clothes...yes...but could you sustain the standard and long term with doing such? These jobs are stepping stones for those who don't have the affordability to first get their education. Now they have no stone to step upon to raise their training value.

Glad to see your willing to keep America down for your willfull apathy of corporate(single individual) want. How noble of you.

Sneakers I bought 20 years ago always lasted me at least a year - under heavy use. The sneakers I buy today, even under limited use, don't last a year. So I would disagree.

I will admit that I buy 1 pair of sneakers every 6 years if that much so I won't argue quality.

ExpsRedemption, You honestly telling us you work 95 hours a week?

#126 | Posted by Salaryman at 2009-08-14 03:33 PM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
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Yes I am.
Job# 3 is night shift, that is full time. I am there from 10:45 pm until 6:45 am Sunday Night Through Thursday Night

Job# 2 is from 7:30 am until 3:30 on Mon. Tues. and Fri.

Job# 3 is throughout the rest of the week. Wednesday Felloship lunch at 12:00 pm Wednesday Bible Study from 7-9pm Preperation for Bible Study
Friday Evening Praise Band Practice 7-9pm Sunday Service 9:00 am until 11:45 pm and extra time for preperation for that. Sunday Night meeting from 7-9 pm and then other time spent organizing special events, visitation, etc.

I don't get much sleep. I do enjoy my couple days off though, when I get them.

All jobs are TRAINED and the fact that you been afforded an education has convoluted your mind into thinking you're above training.

Education is just the length in which training takes place and is afforded to those who happen to have the economic standing to afford such.

Can you be trained to make clothes...yes...but could you sustain the standard and long term with doing such? These jobs are stepping stones for those who don't have the affordability to first get their education.

Save your argument for someone born with a silver spoon in their mouth. I grew up with nothing and paid for my college 100%.
I wonder how many liberals here can say that?

Glad to see your willing to keep America down for your willfull apathy of corporate(single individual) want. How noble of you.

Sorry to see your willingness to stay in the 1950s and failure to accept global reality. How pathetic of you.

once again, you need a villian to shout at and I represent that for you crasswar.

despite your attempts to make me the villian, I am simply someone who accepts this.....along with both parties in DC and the rest of the world.

I, along with you, believe in a strong middle class and many jobs we do ship overseas are hurting the middle class.

I can buy a pair of basketball shoes TODAY for the same price as I paid in high school 23 years ago.

An there are millions today who can't afford those shoes who could have 23 years ago, if they still had those cobler jobs.

Danni is hitting the nail on the head and understands the reality and rationale behind the long term effect, why can't you.

Patriotism is more than war, it is about protecting the people too, regardless of their economic standing and educational background. Has that escaped you?

Save your argument for someone born with a silver spoon in their mouth. I grew up with nothing and paid for my college 100%.
I wonder how many liberals here can say that?

I can say that, I can also say that my education didn"t make me forget where I came from. Your so proud that those you left behind are no longer worthy of any job.....nice educational thought it does you proud.

An there are millions today who can't afford those shoes who could have 23 years ago, if they still had those cobler jobs.

we are never going to agree on that. you are full of shit that "millions today can't afford those shoes". that same shoe probably goes for $15 versus $70 in 1987 when adjusted for inflation.

which can people afford...$15 or $70?

BTW, unemployment has remained low (until very recently) without those jobs.

Patriotism is more than war, it is about protecting the people too, regardless of their economic standing and educational background. Has that escaped you?

keep assigning positions fool.

That is certainly a "skill" nobody can take away from you.

Sorry Ex, but think you are a liar.

Eberly,

I don't need a villian, I am just trying to show you that those who accept the WRONGNESS of this are contributors to it. I didn't say anything about either party...I know they both contribute and have shown my disdain here for both often.

The more people from EITHER party begin to resist and fight this downing of our people the more both parties will begin to protect the American people.

This isn't a party issue, this is an American Patriotic Pride issue.

Your so proud that those you left behind are no longer worthy of any job.....nice educational thought it does you proud.

WTF are you talking about?

Who did I leave behind? It's not like I got out of Saigon before the fall or something.

rather than see American success for what it is, you just attack the successful one.

you and danni are hopelessly lost. you are the ones full of rage and hostility. You've had your ass kicked in this world and you have to pissed at someone. might as well be an anonymous blogger.

I don't need a villian, I am just trying to show you that those who accept the WRONGNESS of this are contributors to it.

you just contradicted yourself. You DO indeed need a villian crasswar and your posts prove it. so does danni and jackass and boob.

I will not accept the wrongness of shipping a textile job elsewhere. It isn't wrong. I didn't say all jobs...but very UNSKILLED jobs like those.....yes.

blame me all you want. You don't know what else to do anyway.

"I grew up with nothing and paid for my college 100%.
I wonder how many liberals here can say that?"

I grew up with nothing. Went to college and grad school on scholarship. But I'm not a "lib", so it doesn't matter. Of course, I'm not a "con" or a "tarian" either. Oh well. Maybe I should claim to be a commie.

BTW, unemployment has remained low (until very recently) without those jobs.

And you believe this....LOL!

How many more goal posts of measure are you willing to accept before you really understand the party corruption?

A tall man cannot hide in the short grass.

Who did I leave behind? It's not like I got out of Saigon before the fall or something.

rather than see American success for what it is, you just attack the successful one.

Saigon....LOL! You lack the educational intellect to see you have made my Patriotic point. Your unable to see those in this country who didn't have the same percentage of lucky Quantums that you obtained.

I attack those who are successful and have purposely forgot about the rest of America with their educational apathy.

I will not accept the wrongness of shipping a textile job elsewhere. It isn't wrong. I didn't say all jobs...but very UNSKILLED jobs like those.....yes.

And what will those people do? You tell them to educate themselves but don't think about giving them the means to do so.

The jobs gives them the means economically to educate themselves, now you have removed that stepping stone and have said they should educate themselves. LOL!

Certainly can't stop or slow down poverty with your kind of thinking....we are living and seeing it now. Good on ya...it works.

Oh well. Maybe I should claim to be a commie.

If you take a leftist position then you will be called one. And if you take a right position then out comes the "nazi" and "facist" crap too.

you can't win here.

You lack the educational intellect...

when his ass gets sore from getting kicked, crass just busts out shit like that. It is at the same level as accusing me from posting from my mom's basement.

LOL

MS. MORNIN: That's good, because I work three jobs and I feel like I contribute.

PRESIDENT BUSH: You work three jobs?

MS. MORNIN: Three jobs, yes.

PRESIDENT BUSH: Uniquely American, isn't it? I mean, that is fantastic that you're doing that. (Applause.) Get any sleep? (Laughter.)
###
Back to the point at hand. Why do companies send their manufacturing off shore?

1. Environemental laws
2. Cheep labor
3. Cheep taxes

#88 | Posted by Sniper

I'm guessing, better spelling too.

"I wonder how many liberals here can say that?"

Well just about every single one I know with an education. My daughter, and evil lib, just graduated summa cum laude, as I've already bored everyone with the news. She works full time and pays her own way, I wish I could have helped her more but she did ok anyway, I also paid my own way and didn't actually graduate until I was nearly 50 years old. You are hardly the first and conservatives certainly have no monopoly on paying their own way through school. Most of the people I've met who had a free ride through on Daddy and Mommy ended up being conservatives and thinking themselves a bit better than the rabble. I prefer to hang with the rabble.

Danni -

...My daughter, and evil lib, just graduated summa cum laude, as I've already bored everyone with the news...

I left you a note the other week on a Nooner which you first spoke about your daughter but don't know if you had a chance to see it. Also Afkable did too. You have every right to be proud of her. Hey, brag about the kid all you want!

I do Chris, believe me I do. Thanks for that.

#153 | Posted by danni

Thats funny, most of the folks I know who rode daddy and mommys money through college are flamming libs. Those who had to work and pay their own way are conservatives. They seem to know about hard work and making it on their own.

You must read all the posts to understand the flow of the argument between Danni and I . I presented information which was not addressed. I gave an anecdote to think about, not as factual or overarching evidence for the nation. I gave it simply to illustrate that it does happen, since people are acting so emotionally and patriotically about the possiblity of Americans as a whole being somewhat lazy.

#124 | POSTED BY EXPSREDEMPTION

Why would anyone read your 16 part TOME to the high council of Vulcan?

You can't say what needs to be said clearly or conscisely but instead write a Dissertation on the meaning of anecdote and how your logic was misinterpreted.. good lord.

The simple fact is you extrapolated that Americans were lazy because of anecdotal evidence experienced by you and some how that must mean that a majority of Americans are lazy when the productivity and GNP reflect counter to your argument.

Please try again.

I cannot understand how you do not understant that higher productivity is much easier with lower quality.

If you lower quality you will have higher productivity and therefore look like you are less lazy when in actuality you are not. Also take into account that machines make most of the materials that we use today. People don't really do much in their jobs most of the time.

The people are lazy, the machines are great workers.

I ask you of quality and you keep going back to the productivity. Its all about how much you produce, not what you produce. Seems like the American way.

Expres-
re: The people are lazy, the machines are great workers.

If we just got rid of the people, we'd be much more efficient as a society.