Facts are a stubborn thing.

Oregon practices this treatment--oh and it's all legal. How nice for Oregon.

Not so nice for the folks of Oregon.

And it has happened to others in Oregon--

""Indeed, Randy Stroup, a 53-year-old Dexter resident with terminal prostate cancer, learned recently that his doctor's request for the drug mitoxantrone had been rejected. The treatment, while not a cure, could ease Stroup's pain and extend his life by six months.

Playing With 'My Life'
"What is six months of life worth?" he asked in a report in the Eugene Register-Guard. "To me it's worth a lot. This is my life they're playing with."

The Oregon Health Plan was established in 1994 and the physician-assisted death law was enacted in 1997. The state was recently hailed by a University of Wisconsin study as having one of the nation's top pain-management policies.

The health plan, for those whose incomes fall under the poverty level, prioritizes coverage -- from prevention first, to chronic disease management, treatment of mental health, heart and cancer treatment. ""

"Not so nice for the folks of Oregon."

Shut up, Murphy, you idiot. The people of Oregon support that law. Why don't you attack the insurance company?

"but the insurance company refused to pay. "

It seems that people have missed the most salient part of this article...

This is occuring under the PRESENT health care system.

Unfortunately this is going to set back the cause of death with dignity. I believe it should be upto individuals whether they want to end their lives when they are terminally ill, not a government or insurance bureaucrat. And certainly if they want to stat alive force the suicide option on them is equivalent to murder.

Nothing about Palin in the article and nothing about this kind of policy in any of the health bills before Congress.

Although, any of those bills would prevent this kind of behaviour by the insurance company.

Nice try, Murphy. No points.

What makes you think it wont occur under a public option, especially if the public option becomes a de facto monopoly? Health care costs are going through the roof. Obama wants to cut costs and increase the number of people covered. Even if he raises taxes some rationing will occur, it's simple math. Rationing will lead to these kinds of cases being more frequent under a de facto single payer monopoly system.

Hey Murphy, you better watch out, they is gonna snitch you, they is gonna send your name to that withe house flag thing! Yeah! You're going to wind up in Guantanamo!

"Unfortunately this is going to set back the cause of death with dignity."

what about LIFE with diginity? That should be a law. Can Palin be euthanized under this law? If so, I'm for it. I'll even care for Trig after she's put down and then buried in some snowdrift in Wasillywalla or whatever the town's name is.

Why do you apologists of Health Care Inc. deny the current system of rationing that is in place?

Is it the fact that rationing by corporate bureacrats is acceptable?

Why the continuing attacks on Palin? She absolutely killed any future political career by being a quitter. You guys act like she was a formidable candidate who could beat Obama in 2012. Palin is irrelebant. Let up on the attacks already. No use beating a dead horse.

#10 | Posted by 726 at 2009-08-10 11:53 AM

Obviously you are not referring to my comment.

Why the continuing attacks on Palin?

Palin has become nothing more than another Internet Troll. She keeps popping up in hopes someone will attack so she can then say she is being attacked and get more press. She recently once again put Trig out to support her political point of view, yet will jump on anyone who counters her as "attacking her child."

When it comes to Sarah Palin- please don't feed the trolls.

Palin is irrelevant within the context of the larger American political picture, on that I definitely agree. However, she's not irrelevant within the much smaller, highly marginalized universe of the GOP. From a July Gallup poll:

"What makes you think it wont occur under a public option, especially if the public option becomes a de facto monopoly? Health care costs are going through the roof. Obama wants to cut costs and increase the number of people covered. Even if he raises taxes some rationing will occur, it's simple math. Rationing will lead to these kinds of cases being more frequent under a de facto single payer monopoly system."

I understand your point but you do agree that the drug companies already do deny medications such as the one mentioned in the article. So, we could put into health care reform legislation denying both them and the public option the right to deny such medications but what cost are we willing to pay for??? Are we willing to pay much larger premiums for private health care insurance or public insurance so that people like this lady can have their possible additional six months of life???
These really are questions that are not necessary in the determination of how we pay for our health care, i.e. public or private. It is a more basic question and whatever answer we decide on should also apply to either public or private health care.

It doesn't matter what you think.

I want her....errr, I'll vote for her.

Muffy.

Go ahead and flag me, sweetie ;)

I heard a rumor yesterday....
If you plant an rtard upside down, with just their legs sticking out of the ground...the legs will grow into two Democrats......

And I heard a rumor, jsut confirmed, that Frank sucks at making funny comments. They come out lame instead.

Question, smurphy....

How does a CURRENT law in Oregon prove your idiotic assertion about what's in the Health Reform Bill?

Why is the right so steadfastly silent about the obvious fact that the insurance company is the murderer here?

Murphy, your little god is going to spank you at some point for being so willfully dishonest.

Facts are a stubborn thing.

So is your insistence on justifying every foul thing that comes out of Palin's mouth.

Don't ever rip on an Obama supporter because your fanatical support of Sarah! puts you in a pretty small glass house.

#11 | POSTED BY MEMBER2586

This thread is not an attack on Palin, it was posted as an attempt to justify her idiotic comments made a few days ago. You can't blame people for responding.

"Is it the fact that rationing by corporate bureacrats is acceptable?"

You just said a mouthful.

That is the problem with health-care reform, not any moral, legal or ethical issue. It threatens too many mansions, Lexuses and country-club memberships. Corporate America wants all the rules set up in its favor - after all, it's become very accustomed to that these past few years.

Whoever wrote that letter - and those responsible for the policy behind it - should be imprisoned and put to hard labor for the rest of their natural lives. Won't happen, but it should.

A preview of obamaworld.

#23 - So, like, this would never happen now, right?

Unfortunately this is going to set back the cause of death with dignity. I believe it should be upto individuals whether they want to end their lives when they are terminally ill, not a government or insurance bureaucrat. And certainly if they want to stat alive force the suicide option on them is equivalent to murder.

#5 | Posted by member2586

This article is a little misleading about this fact. It's not like the government is saying sorry we're only going to approve the Suicide pill cause you're so sick. They still provide pallative care which happens to include a suicide pill but if this people want to keep living till the body gives out the system will provide pain meds and other pallative treatments til the end. They're just not going to pay for an expensive treatment that has less than 5% survival after 5 years. Yes it sucks that people are being denied treatment but that's going to happen in any system with limited resources.

A preview of obamaworld.

#23 | Posted by rebelnation

What-no link to the proof?
Must be another strawman/lie.......

"any of those bills would prevent this kind of behaviour by the insurance company."

Really? H.R. 3200 will pay for any life-prolonging treatment regardless of long-term outlook? Can you link to the specific provision you are referring to? I haven't seen that one.

I would think that denial of expensive medication is something we're going to continue to see even under the new public plan. It's being written in such a way that drug manufacturers will be safe, no cost cap, incentives to stay on name brands, etc... And I don't think the government will be able to justify a 4k / month medication for something that likely won't help anyway, anymore than a private insurance company.

Instead of demanding single payer and cost controls / price negotiations that could prevent this kind of denial, the Dems were too busy waving the pom-poms.

The most important passage in the article:

"It's challenging because health care is very expensive, but that's not the real essence of our priority list," said Dr. Jeanene Smith, administrator for the Office of for Oregon's Health Policy and Research staff.

"We need evidence to say it is a good use of taxpayer's dollars," she said. "It may be expensive, but if it does wonders, we cover it."

* * * *

Get used to hearing this. But instead of having it come from Salem, Oregon, it'll be issued by someone in Obamahealth, Washington.

Shut up, Murphy, you idiot. The people of Oregon support that law. Why don't you attack the insurance company?

"but the insurance company refused to pay. "

#3 | Posted by nullifidian at 2009-08-10 11:38 AM
* * * *

Look who didn't read the article, as usual.

Tell ya what. Read it, get smarter, then come back when you know who the insurance is through.

This is what I said yesterday on another thread, in reply to Johnson, about this same lady:

I'm sure she'd also be denied private insurance if she tried to get it. All you're really doing is proving that the current system is fucked up on several levels. What are YOU trying to do to fix it?

The question still stands.

I'm sure she'd also be denied private insurance if she tried to get it. All you're really doing is proving that the current system is fucked up on several levels. What are YOU trying to do to fix it?

#31 | Posted by Whatsleft at 2009-08-10 04:28 PM

--Obama

Nothing about Palin in the article and nothing about this kind of policy in any of the health bills before Congress.

Although, any of those bills would prevent this kind of behaviour by the insurance company.

Nice try, Murphy. No points.

#6 | Posted by Corky

Rcade changed the headline--what to go bro'

"Palin Might Be Right On 'Death Panel' Check Out Oregon"

Oregon's state recommended she take the suicide drugs since they were not going to pay for the 4,000 dollar pills.

That friends is the path of socialized medicine which is what Obama is trying to pass here with the Dems.

BTW--The drug company stepped in to help this woman and gave her the drugs for free.

From the article:

"The problem with the Oregon plan is it sounds like administrators, not physicians, are making treatment decisions," he said. "And if a patient can get assisted death paid for but not cancer treatment, the choice is obvious."

i think we need to get used to those $50.00 pills

"""BTW--The drug company stepped in to help this woman and gave her the drugs for free."""

Nice to see they corrected the original mistake that caused all of this uproar, so you're essentially admitting that was the problem all along, that's a step in the right direction.

Now you can go on pissing your pants over disinformation you feed on, you stupid little sock puppet.

"My reaction is pretty typical," he told ABCNews.com. "I am sick and tired of the dollar being the bottom line of everything. We need to put human life above the dollar."

And yet I wonder if this guy has ever bitched about his tax dollars going to welfare?

The problem is everyone wants the best medical care when THEY need it regardless of cost and who has to pay for it, yet those same people have trouble feeling that way when it's someone else's treatment they can't afford being paid for by the government.

"Facts are a stubborn thing.

Oregon practices this treatment--oh and it's all legal. How nice for Oregon.

Not so nice for the folks of Oregon.

#1 | Posted by MURPHY"

Bullshit, Murphy. Well, except for the "facts" part. Fact: this woman's private health insurer would not pay for the cancer drug. Fact: no federal program would pay for the cancer drug. Fact: OHP would no pay for the cancer drug. Fact: if OHP did not exist, this woman would have one option - die from cancer, probably in a slow, painful way. Fact: with OHP, this woman has two choices - die from cancer, probably in a slow, painful way, or take life-ending drugs to avoid dying in a slow, painful way.

So I ask again what no one would answer yesterday - how is this woman worse off with OHP than she would be without it?

If you want to answer the above question with the assumption/fact that this woman had no private health insurance, please do so.

"Oregon's state recommended....

#33 | Posted by MURPHY"

Recommended? How so?

That friends is the path of socialized medicine which is what Obama is trying to pass here with the Dems.

btw- you are full of shit Murphy. Obama is trying to set the course whereby Insurance companies CANNOT refuse coverage like this. Please show us WHERE in the current bill where this "is the path".

Please show us WHERE in the current bill where this "is the path".

Probably right after the section that describes Trigg's death committee.

Obama is trying to set the course whereby Insurance companies CANNOT refuse coverage like this.

#41 | Posted by donnerboy at 2009-08-10 05:40 PM

I've seen where he's making it so they can't deny coverage based on pre-existing conditions, but not where they'll have to pay for every expensive treatment out there they may have a slight chance of extending someone's life.

I think you're a dumb fuck for even suggesting it but am willing to hold judgement giving you a chance to prove your claim. Have at it.

Monte--

They--the state of Oregon who runs the medical insurance for the state and has a sideline business of assisted suicide sent the woman a friggin letter!!

Here! We won't give you the cancer drug--but it's your lucky day!!! We'll give you this tiny little pill for $50.00 --WHICH we will pay for and it will kill you --!! Hooray!!!!

Hey pancho--dont' be such a zapato stupido--

This article was 2008--the state of Oregon has been doing this for quite some time.

Grandmas and Unborn Babies Face Extermination by Obama's "Health" Care Plan

Investors Business Daily has just exposed the Achilles' heel of Obamacare, that hostile, socialist government takeover of your hospital, doctors, children, and grandparents. In an editorial entitled, "How House Bill Runs Over Grandma," the editors report how President Obama was personally confronted by a North Carolina woman asking if "everyone that's Medicare age will be visited and told they have to decide how they wish to die."

In response Obama joked that he hadn't yet hired enough bureaucrats to conduct such an operation, yet he could not deny the New York Post's discovery the House bill "compels seniors to submit to a counseling session every five years (and more often if they become sick or go into a nursing home) about alternatives for end-of-life care" (pages 425-430). In other words, your grandmother will be told, when insufficient resources are rationed to young people, that her duty to die begins with mandatory "end-of-life counseling," or as Obama explained, "encourage the use of living wills" that terminate otherwise salvageable lives prematurely through signed "do not resuscitate" (DNR) legal releases.

1) EUTHANASIA is the first result of Obama's socialist government "health" care plan.

Bankrupt state can't afford to pay for grandma's hip replacement? Obama's plan sends her a lawyer to make her sign a DNR, explaining her hastened duty to die, and obtaining her signature legally absolving him of all guilt. Euthanasia begins where capitalism ends.

CLICK HERE TO SIGN PETITION, AND WE WILL FAX ALL 52 "BLUE-DOG" DEMOCRATS IN THE HOUSE, AND ALL 100 SENATORS, TO OPPOSE OBAMACARE.

Widely respected Minister Rick Joyner wrote this week, after reviewing Mat Staver's analysis of H.R. 3200 "Health" care bill, voicing his strong opinion that this bill "is about euthanasia, the power to determine who lives or dies in America. Hitler and Stalin would have loved to have had a means such as this for dispatching the millions they killed-it would have made their job much easier, and probably given them the ability to kill many more than they did. THIS BILL IS THAT SINISTER. This is not a joke." You can read Mat Staver's line-by-line analysis of the 1000 page health care bill at the bottom of this email.

2) Tax-payer funded ABORTION on demand is another guaranteed result.

Last week several so-called "pro-life Democrats" executed a bait and switch that will fully fund abortion on demand in the new Obamacare "health" bill. Led by compromiser and ex-pro-life Congressman Tim Ryan (D-OH), who was recently booted as an advisor to Democrats for Life of America for his lack of principle, the liberal House Democrats overruled conservative Republicans 30-28 to pass the hideous "Capps Amendment" to H.R.3200 in the Energy and Commerce Committee. This amendment now deceptively creates a phony accounting scheme that gives the false impression your tax-payer dollars will not subsidize abortion, while it simultaneously nationalizes free abortions for low-income urban neighborhoods, fulfilling the dream of Margaret Sanger (and her protege Ruth Bader Ginsburg) that African American babies will be the first exterminated in the government funded ovens that weed out "Populations that we don't want to have too many of."

Rep. Chris Smith (R-NJ) explained the Capps Amendment: "It's one of the most deceptive amendments I have ever seen. The bottom line is that money is fungible, and the plan itself will be subsidizing abortion-on-demand, with taxpayer funding commingled, and the numbers of abortions will go up significantly."

BELOW IS THE DETAILED ANALYSIS OF THE 1000 PAGE HEALTH CARE PLAN BY MY FRIEND MAT STAVER, DEAN OF LIBERTY UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF LAW:

Obama Health Care Plan Details

HR 3200 currently under consideration in the House of Representatives

*HC = "Health Care"

Pg 22 of the HC Bill MANDATES the Government will audit the books of ALL EMPLOYERS that self insure!!

Pg 29 lines 4-16 in the HC Bill - YOUR HEALTH CARE IS RATIONED!!!

Pg 30 Sec 123 of HC Bill - THERE WILL BE A GOVERNMENT COMMITTEE that decides what treatments/benefits you get

Pg 42 of HC Bill - The Health Choices Commissioner will choose your benefits for you. You have no choice!

Pg 50 Section 152 in HC Bill - HC will be provided to ALL non-U.S. citizens, illegal or otherwise

Pg 58 HC Bill - Government will have real-time access to individual's finances and a National ID Health Care Card will be issued!

Pg 59 HC Bill lines 21-24 Government will have direct access to your banks accounts for electronic funds transfer.

Pg 65 Sec 164 is a payoff subsidized plan for retirees and their families in unions and community organizations (ACORN).

Pg 72 Lines 8-14 Government is creating a Health Care Exchange to bring private health care plans under government control.

Pg 84 Sec 203 HC Bill - Government mandates ALL benefit packages for private health care plans in the Exchange

Pg 85 Line 7 HC Bill - Specs for of Benefit Levels for Plans = The government will ration your health care!

Pg 91 Lines 4-7 HC Bill - Government mandates linguistic appropriate services.

Pg 95 HC Bill Lines 8-18 The government will use groups i.e., ACORN & AmeriCorps to sign up individuals for government Health Care Plan

Pg 85 Line 7 HC Bill - Specs of Ben Levels 4 Plans. #AARP members - Your health care WILL be rationed

Pg 102 Lines 12-18 HC Bill - Medicaid Eligible Individual will be automatically enrolled in Medicaid. No choice.

Pg 124 lines 24-25 HC No company can sue the government on price fixing. No "judicial review" against this government monopoly.

Pg 127 Lines 1-16 HC Bill - Doctors/ #AMA - The government will tell YOU what you can make.

Pg 145 Line 15-17 An employer MUST auto enroll employees into public option plan. NO CHOICE

Pg 126 Lines 22-25 Employers MUST pay for health care for part-time employees AND their families.

Pg 149 Lines 16-24 ANY Employer w/ payroll 400k and above who does not prov. pub opt. pays 8% tax on all payroll

Pg 150 Lines 9-13 Businesses with payroll between 251k and 400k who do not provide public opt pays 2-6% tax on all payroll

Pg 167 Lines 18-23 ANY individual who doesn't have acceptable health care according to government will be taxed 2.5% of income.

Pg 170 Lines 1-3 Any NONRESIDENT Alien is exempt from individual taxes (Americans will pay).

Pg 195 Officers & employees of HC Administration (GOVT) will have access to ALL Americans' financial and personal records.

Pg 203 Line 14-15 HC - "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax." Yes, it says that.

Pg 239 Line 14-24 HC Bill Government will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors, low income, poor affected.

Pg 241 Line 6-8 HC Bill - Doctors, it does not matter what specialty you have, you'll all be paid the same.

Pg 253 Line 10-18 Government sets value of doctors' time, prof judg, etc. Literally value of humans.

Pg 265 Sec 1131Government mandates and controls productivity for private health care industries.

Pg 268 Sec 1141 Federal Government regulates rental and purchase of power-driven wheelchairs.

Pg 272 SEC. 1145. Treatment of certain cancer hospitals - Cancer patients - welcome to rationing!

Page 280 Sec 1151 The government will penalize hospitals for what government deems preventable readmissions. (Incentives for hospital to not treat and release.)

Pg 298 Lines 9-11 Doctors that treat a patient during initial admission that results in a readmission-Government will penalize you.

Pg 317 L 13-20 PROHIBITION on ownership/investment. Government tells Doctors what/how much they can own.

Pg 317-318 lines 21-25, 1-3 PROHIBITION on expansion- Government is mandating hospitals cannot expand.

pg 321 2-13 Hospitals have opportunity to apply for exception, BUT community input required. Can you say ACORN?!!

Pg335 L 16-25 Pg 336-339 - Government mandates establishment of outcome based measures. Health Care the way they want. Rationing.

Pg 341 Lines 3-9 Government has authority to disqualify Medicare Advantage Plans (Part B), HMOs, etc. Forcing people into Government plan.

Pg 354 Sec 1177 - Government will RESTRICT enrollment of special needs people!

Pg 379 Sec 1191 Government creates more bureaucracy - Tele-health Advisory Committee. Health care by phone/Internet?

Pg 425 Lines 4-12 Government mandates Advance [Death] Care Planning Consultion. Think Senior Citizens end of life.

Pg 425 Lines 17-19 Government will instruct and consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney. Mandatory!

Pg 425 Lines 22-25, 426 Lines 1-3 Government provides approved list of end of life resources, guiding you in death.

Pg 427 Lines 15-24 Government mandates program for orders for end of life. The government has a say in how your life ends.

Pg 429 Lines 1-9 An "advanced care planning consult" will be used frequently as patient's health deteriorates.

Pg 429 Lines 10-12 " advanced care consultation" may include an ORDER for end of life plans. AN ORDER from Government.

Pg 429 Lines 13-25 - The government will specify which doctors can write an end of life order.

PG 430 Lines 11-15 The government will decide what level of treatment you will have at end of life.

Pg 469 - Community Based Home Medical Services=Non-profit orgs. Hello, ACORN Medical Services here!!?

Pg 472 Lines 14-17 PAYMENT TO COMMUNITY-BASED ORG. 1 monthly payment to a community-based org. Like ACORN?

Pg 489 Sec 1308 The government will cover Marriage and Family therapy. They will insert government into your marriage.

Pg 494-498 Government will cover Mental Health Services including defining, creating, rationing those services.

PG 502 Sec 1181 Center for Comparative Effectiveness Research Established. - Hello Big Brother - Literally.

Pg 503 Lines 13-19 Government will build registries and data networks from YOUR electronic medical records.

Pg 503 lines 21-25 Government may secure data directly from any department or agency of the U.S. who have any of your data.

Pg 504 Lines 6-10 The "Center" will collect data both published and unpublished (that means public and your private info).

PG 506 Lines 19-21 The Center will recommend policies that would allow for public access of data.

PG 518 Lines 21-25 The Commission will have input from Health Care consumer reps - Can you say unions and ACORN?

PG 524 18-22 Comparative Effectiveness Research Trust Fund set up. More taxes for ALL.

PG 621 Lines 20-25 Government will define what quality means in health care. Since when does government know about quality?

Pg 622 Lines 2-9 To pay for the Quality Standards, government will transfer money from other government Trust Funds. More Taxes.

PG 624 "Quality" measures shall be designed to assess outcomes and functional status of patients.

PG 624 "Quality" measures shall be designed to profile you including race, age, gender, place of residence, etc.

Pg 628 Sec 1443 Government will give "Multi-Stake Holders" Pre-Rule Making input into Selection of "Quality" Measures.

Pg 630 9-24/631 1-9 Those multi-stake holder groups include unions and groups like ACORN deciding health care quality.

Pg 632 Lines 14-25 The Government may implement any "Quality measure" of health care services as they see fit.

PG 633 14-25/ 634 1-9 The Secretary may issue non-endorsed "Quality Measures" for Physician Services and Dialysis Services.

Pg 635 to 653 Physicians Payments Sunshine Provision - Government wants to shine sunlight on doctor but not government.

Pg 654-659 Public Reporting on Health Care-Associated Infections - Looks okay.

PG 660-671 Doctors in Residency - Government will tell you where your residency will be, thus where you'll live.

Pg 676-686 Government will regulate hospitals in EVERY aspect of residency programs, including teaching hospitals.

Pg 686-700 Increased Funding to Fight Waste, Fraud, and Abuse. Do they mean like the government with an $18 million website?

PGs 701-704 Sec 1619 If your part of health care plan isn't in Government Health Care Exchange but you qualify for Federal aid, no payment.

PG 705-709 SEC. 1128 If Secretary gets complaints (ACORN) on health care provider or supplier, government can do background check.

PG 711 Lines 8-14 The Secretary has broad powers to deny health care providers/ suppliers admittance into Health Care Exchange. Your doctor could be thrown out of business.

Pg 719-720 Sec 1637 ANY Doctor who orders durable medical equipment or home medical services MUST be enrolled in Medicare.

PG 722 Sec 1639 Government MANDATES doctors must have face-to-face with patient to certify patient for Home Health Services.

PG 724 23-25 PG 725 1-5 The same government certifications will apply to Medicaid and CHIP (your kids).

PG 724 Lines 16-22 Government reserves right to apply face-to-face certification for patient to ANY other health care service.

Wall of text crits you for 100,000

Stop spamming, Murphy.

Liberty University will no longer recognize its campus Democratic Party club because its parent organization stands against the conservative Christian school's moral principles.

PG 724 Lines 16-22 Government reserves right to apply face-to-face certification for patient to ANY other health care service.

Pg 735 lines 16-25 For law enforcement, proposes the Secretary-HHS will give Attorney General access to ALL data.

PG 740-757 Government sets guidelines for subsidizing the uninsured (That's your tax dollars people).

Pg 757-762 Federal Government will shift burden of payments to Disproportionate Share Hospitals (DSH) to States. (Taxes)

Pg 763 1-8 No DS/EA hospitals will be paid unless they provide services without regard to national origin.

Pg 765 Sec 1711 Government will require Preventative Services including vaccines. (Choice?)

Pg 768 Sec 1713 Government - Nurse Home Visitation Services (Hello union paybacks).

Pg 769 11-14 Nurse Home Visit Services include economic self-sufficiency, employ adv, school-readiness.

Pg 769 3-5 Nurse Home Visit Services - "increasing birth intervals between pregnancies." Government ABORTIONS anyone?

Pg 770 SEC 1714 Federal Government mandates eligibility for State Family Planning Services. Abortion and State Sovereignty.

Pg 789-797 Government will set, mandate drug prices, controlling which drugs brought to market. Bye innovation.

Pgs 797-800 SEC. 1744 PAYMENTS for graduate medical education. The government will now control doctors' educations.

PG 801 Sec 1751 The government will decide which health care conditions will be paid. Can you say RATION!

Pg 810 SEC. 1759. Billing Agents, clearinghouses, etc. req. to register. Government takes over private payment system.

Pg 820-824 Sec 1801 Government will identify individuals ineligible for subsidies. Will access all personal financial information.

Pg 824-829 SEC. 1802. Government sets up Comparative Effectiveness Research Trust Fund. Another tax black hole.

PG 829-833 Government will impose a fee on ALL private health insurance plans including self-insured to pay for Trust Fund!

PG 835 11-13 fees imposed by government for Trust Fund shall be treated as if they were taxes.

Pg 838-840 Government will design and implement Home Visitation Program for families with young kids and families expecting kids.

PG 844-845 This Home Visitation Program includes government coming into your house and telling you how to parent!!!

Pg 859 Government will establish a Public Health Fund at a cost of $88,800,000,000. Yes that's billion.

#55 | Posted by MURPHY at 2009-08-10 05:54 PM | Reply | Flag: Spam

Murphy's source is a buffoon.

Time to get rid of Murphy for lying. Hopefully I can forward this to Obama and he can have Murphy locked up.

What books, magazines, and discussion forums will help me learn more about growing?

The following provide worthwhile information and insights. They are available by mail order from FS Book Co at www.fsbookco.com, Red Eye Press at www.redeyepress.com or New Moon Publishing at www.growingedge.com.

Cannabis Culture, Growing Edge, High Times, and Practical Hydroponics are magazines which provide up to date information.
[Editor's note: these books may be out of date &/or print]

Closet Cultivator - Revised Edition by Ed Rosenthal from Last Gasp.
An easy-to-handle and follow marijuana grow-guide, describing and illustrating by using examples of setting-up hidden (e.g. closet) mini-gardens. 128 pages, 55 illustrations.

Cannabis Alchemy by Daniel Gold from Ronin Publishing.
"The art of preparing extremely potent Cannabis (marijuana) products." Extraction and preparation of hashish and hash-oil. Also describes isomerization. This popular little book remains a classic from the 1970's. 96 pages, illustrated.

CO2, Temperature, & Humidity by Daniel Gold and Ed Rosenthal from Quick American Publishing.
A newly revised guide to increasing yields with simple, practical techniques for indoor and greenhouse gardens, primarily through the use of supplemental CO2 which dramatically increases plant yields. 54 pages, illustrated.

HASHISH! by Robert Connell Clarke from Red Eye Press.
Covers the history of hashish in all major hashish cultures. Describes cultivation, manufacture, legendary and contemporary hashish, the hashish market and availability. Edited by Mel Frank. 339 pages with 261 photos, charts and illustrations.

Hydroponic Food Production - 6th Edition, Hardback by Howard M. Resh, PhD
Over 500 pages long and only available in hardback. He is formerly with the Department of Plant Science at the University of British Columbia, Vancouver and is currently an international horticultural consultant and president of International Aquaponics, Inc.

Murphy,

Given the accuracy of your previous claims about the bill, why should we believe you now?

Indoor Marijuana Horticulture (The indoor bible) - Revised, by Jorge Cervantes, Interport USA.
A user-friendly, easy to understand guide to indoor growing under High Intensity lights (HID's). Revised and expanded edition with new sections by Rob Clarke and Ed Rosenthal. 384 pages, illustrated, index and glossary.

Marijuana Grower's Insider's Guide by Mel Frank, from Red Eye Press.
A complete guide to indoor, greenhouse/outdoor gardening. Hydroponics and organics, cloning, breeding, maximizing potency, nutrient deficiencies, pest control, CO2 set-up, harvesting, curing and drying. 380 pages with 200 photos, charts and illustrations.

Marijuana Grower's Guide Deluxe - Revised by Mel Frank, Red Eye Press.
This is the classic, known as the Grower's Bible. Cannabis botany, chemistry, history and cultivation indoor and outdoor. Covers it all and is an excellent reference for both novice and professional growers. 330 pages, 193 photos, charts, and illustrations.

Marijuana Botany by Robert Connell Clarke from And/Or Press.
Clearly explains marijuana propagation cloning, grafting, seeds and breeding for potency, yield, etc. Beautifully illustrated with excellent drawings. Includes cultivation tips by an expert. An author's work of love. 173 pp., glossary, index, bibliography.

Marijuana Question? Ask Ed by Ed Rosenthal from Quick American
A compendium of questions and answers by the infamous answer-man for High Times. Ed answers hundreds of reader's queries on marijuana growing, preparing, smoking, health, and legal concerns. A wealth of information clearly explained. 264 pages with 70 photos.

Marijuana Chemistry - Revised by Michael Starks from Ronin Publishing.
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Obama is trying to set the course......

Once it is law it can change at anytime and there won't be a fucking thing you can do about it.

When bureaucrats control your health care you are nothing but a dollar amount verses budget.

Guess who loses?

Anyone who thinks government health care is good is either ignorant or just plain stupid.

I'll go with just plain stupid.

Get your heads out of your asses.

"Monte--

They--the state of Oregon who runs the medical insurance for the state and has a sideline business of assisted suicide sent the woman a friggin letter!!

Here! We won't give you the cancer drug--but it's your lucky day!!! We'll give you this tiny little pill for $50.00 --WHICH we will pay for and it will kill you --!! Hooray!!!!

#44 | Posted by MURPHY"

The letter said no such thing, sMurphy. But you know that. Please answer my #38/39. (If you can - ha ha ha.)

Call Congress and tell them to vote yes on House Bill 676...Medicare for all!!!!

Cheaper
Insures everyone
Easily understandable
And tell the assholes so afraid of "socialized healthcare" to convince Grandma to give up Medicare and see what she says.
Why let private insurance only insure the young and healthy then dump the elderly on the taxpayer.
If they want to insure us then they should have to insure us when we are old and sick too.
Why do some folks care so much for milllionaire CEOs making an average of 14 million in salary???
Why do they care so much for insurance company stock holders????
They fools allow themselves to be used by the leeches.
The less money spent on health care the better off our economy will be. Private health insurance is destroying our jobs and our economy.

BTW Earth to Murphy. The final health care bill is not yet written. YOur fear tactics just make you look crazy because you don't have any way to know what will be in the fianl bill. Oh well, you like looking crazy, carry on.

Ah Oregon, a solidly blue state...

(BTW, can we take up a collection and buy Danni a one-way ticket to Oregon? Seems their laws would help her deal with whatever dignity she has left.)

"When bureaucrats control your health care you are nothing but a dollar amount verses budget."

When insurance company adjusters control your health care you are nothing but a dollar amount verses budget.

You must die with dignity drink the cyanide poison....

"You must die with dignity drink the cyanide poison...."

It puts the lotion on its skin....

"Ah Oregon, a solidly blue state..."

Before I die, it will be a blue nation, it almost already is. How many states are still red??? 7???

So sad.

I wonder, had this woman lived in France or Canada or the UK or anywhere else whose healthcare systems are supposed to be used as a model, if THEY would have paid for this treatment?

Elections have consequences. And if it means that under Obamacare that people who smoke cigarettes for 35 years don't get free drugs to extend their lives for another five months, then so be it. As long as I'm able to pay for my own care, my own doctor, and make my own decisions without the douchebag Obamites telling me what I have to do, that's fine. This woman is going to die, because there's no money. If she had any, she would be able to live longer. If Oregan had any, she would be able to live longer. Oh well.

RiR--she already died.

And Monte--you can't recognize sarcasim in my post #44.

btw- you are full of shit Murphy. Obama is trying to set the course whereby Insurance companies CANNOT refuse coverage like this. Please show us WHERE in the current bill where this "is the path".

#41 | Posted by donnerboy

Hey pony boy--go ahead and check out the list of the pages above and I'll link again the HR 3200 bill for you ro search and find the stuff you would like to discuss.

Here is the link for the bill

"When bureaucrats control your health care you are nothing but a dollar amount verses budget."

When insurance company adjusters control your health care you are nothing but a dollar amount verses budget.

#68 | Posted by truthsetyoufree

So....
You want to jump out of the frying pan right into the fire?
Right?
Is that your point?

rwd

"Is that your point?"

Apparently, to the right, it is better to be denied by an insurance company adjuster than by a "bureaucrat."

Meanwhile, Medicare/Medicaid patients, all across the country, get the health care they need.

Is that your point?

Apparently, to the right, it is better to be denied by an insurance company adjuster than by a "bureaucrat."

I've never been denied shit.

Have you? specifically tell me when and over what coverage.

"I've never been denied shit."

From your output, that is painfully obvious.

I'm sure Donnerboy will be along shortly to back up his post. Any minute now.

you are unwilling to answer the question........so STFU.

"so STFU."

I've never been denied shit.

#78 | Posted by eberly at 2009-08-10 09:08 PM

Indeed.

So, my point, as you deflect, is that neither you nor I have been denied any coverage and you think another system would be better in that regard.

Hell, you can't even cite a case you know of personally where someone has been denied coverage and here you are complaining about it.

I'm for reform but be honest about "denials".

There are plenty of things to bitch about regarding private insurance.

stick to cost, prevention, less admin/profit costs etc..

don't parrot a talking point you don't understand.

"So, my point, as you deflect, is that neither you nor I have been denied any coverage and you think another system would be better in that regard."

Like the Medicare/Medicaid system.

"Don't touch my Medicare!"

"Don't touch my Medicare!"

just an ideological deflection. nothing more.

I agree that those types of objections are stupid.

why bring that up?

unless, like all extremists libs, you have to assign a position to me that doesn't exist.

"just an ideological deflection. nothing more."

There are plenty of things to bitch about regarding private insurance.

stick to cost, prevention, less admin/profit costs etc..

Just an ideological deflection. nothing more.

you got caught lying your ass off and now you just delfect away.

everybody here sees it, you fool.

other than a pathetic attempt to assign a position to me, you have posted nothing.

We have a great issue to debate.

Your choice to participate.

Let's have it. Everyone gets healthcare through the gov. No exceptions.

Enact tort reform.

Then work on supply and demand. Create more medical schools, create levels of Doctors to make it easier to get into the field.

Let people pay for medical school by working their first 4 or 6 years in government clinics. Then they can go out and work on their own (for the gov).

But... Everyone pays. Just like social security. Set a percent, no limits everyone pays. If you make $500 you pay. If you make $5,000,000 you pay.

#49 | Posted by MURPHY

#50 | Posted by MURPHY

#51 | Posted by MURPHY

#55 | Posted by MURPHY

The record should show that Murphy pasted all of those posts from a spam email that is floating through the paranoid masses. Murphy should read the bill herself, as most of the spam she has posted from said email is a pretty severe misrepresentation/poor interpretation of what the bill actually says.

"Enact tort reform."

don't parrot a talking point you don't understand.

#83 | Posted by eberly

Why do you apologists of Health Care Inc. deny the current system of rationing that is in place?Is it the fact that rationing by corporate bureacrats is acceptable?#10 | Posted by 726 at 2009-08-10 11:53 AM | Reply |

You still have SOME DEGREE of free market competition.

Why do a majority of Britons says that they'd buy private health insurance if they won the lottery if "Sicko" is accurate?

"Why do a majority of Britons says that they'd buy private health insurance if they won the lottery if "Sicko" is accurate?"

Probably for the same reasons we would as well. Anyone believing the private insurance companies are going by the wayside is an idiot, same as those believing we can afford the same 'Cadillac Care' our parents have enjoyed as we go through the baby boomer retirement years.

#92 | Posted by Danforth

Get over yourself and Obama.

This "Obamacare" is going away.

If it passes, so will most of Congress. They will be "Passed-over" for re-election.

"This "Obamacare" is going away."

So what's your solution, or are you content staying in the cage throwing feces?

No matter what the facts are when the person on the street sees this they are going to question the Democrats proposals on health care.

I never read the bill in Oregon that describes their health care plan, but I would bet my 401k they probably generalized, and did not give a lot of specifics.

No wonder the town halls are so vocal.

A lot of the health care bills being proposed generalize on the substance, the details will be hashed out latter by committees or departments. So when you are trying to figure out the specifics you cannot just look at the bills themselves, so it's natural that people will look at places like Canada or Oregon where they have health care reform.

So when someone says were in the bill does it specify youth-in-asia, it probably not in the bill, but may be interpreted latter when the details are hashed out.

as most of the spam she has posted from said email is a pretty severe misrepresentation/poor interpretation of what the bill actually says.

It's murphy, what do you expect?

So when someone says were in the bill does it specify youth-in-asia, it probably not in the bill, but may be interpreted latter when the details are hashed out.

Ahhhh another BL2-they aren't really saying it, but clearly that's what they mean regardless of what the evidence actually suggests.

Got any other purely ideological BS arguments to make?

I'm sure Donnerboy will be along shortly to back up his post. Any minute now.

#80 | Posted by LIVE_OR_DIE at 2009-08-10 09:25 PM

Ahhhh another BL2-they aren't really saying it, but clearly that's what they mean regardless of what the evidence actually suggests.

Got any other purely ideological BS arguments to make?

#97 | Posted by jpw at 2009-08-11 11:26 AM | Reply | Flag: Failed Reading Comprehension

Got any other purely ideological BS arguments to make?

#97 | Posted by jpw
----------------
It's how government works take a civics class.

Failed Reading Comprehension

How so?

t's how government works take a civics class.

Uh huh of course. However, arguments that essentially say "I don't have a leg to stand on now but I will later because that's how government works" are worthless. Unless you have evidence that this will in fact be the case, post it. If not, you're talking out your ass.

And, yes, I am aware that often we get more than we're told we're getting from politicians. However, citing as yet unarticulated evidence to support your argument is intellectually weak.

So....
You want to jump out of the frying pan right into the fire?
Right?
Is that your point?

rwd

#76 | Posted by rightwingdon at 2009-08-10 09:03 PM | Reply |

The point is, you don't have a point and need to go find a new one.

You still have SOME DEGREE of free market competition.

Why do a majority of Britons says that they'd buy private health insurance if they won the lottery if "Sicko" is accurate?

#91 | Posted by kirk at 2009-08-10 11:08 PM | Reply |

Not when the players of the free market are colluding.

Note the fact that not everyone wants the cheapest, most economical car on the road. Same goes with health insurance.

Failed Reading Comprehension

How so?

t's how government works take a civics class.

Uh huh of course. However, arguments that essentially say "I don't have a leg to stand on now but I will later because that's how government works" are worthless. Unless you have evidence that this will in fact be the case, post it. If not, you're talking out your ass.

And, yes, I am aware that often we get more than we're told we're getting from politicians. However, citing as yet unarticulated evidence to support your argument is intellectually weak.

#101 | Posted by jpw at 2009-08-11 12:39 PM

Since you seem to disagree with 90C2CAB's assertion that congress won't be writing out the specifics of their health plan in terms of covered medications and procedures, perhaps you could point me to the portion of the bill detailing the various covered treatment options for cancer patients? Working in a radiation oncology clinic, I'd be curious to see which of our procedures are covered.

The irony... "How so?" lol

How so?

Since you seem to disagree with 90C2CAB's assertion that congress won't be writing out the specifics of their health plan in terms of covered medications and procedures, perhaps you could point me to the portion of the bill detailing the various covered treatment options for cancer patients?

Speaking of failed reading comprehension...

I've never stated that Congress won't be filling out details later, just that stating what you THINK is going to be inserted in order to justify making some bullshit hyperbolic argument about euthanasia.

But if you'd like to assign me another misunderstood (purposefully or not, I don't care...) position, be my guest.

Hell, as long as we can just make up details that we're sure Congress will include later for the sake of argument now, I'd say the answer to your question is all of your procedures will be covered. Hell, I'll bet they'll include you and your clinic as a specific example of a shining beacon of hope and integrity. Prove me wrong, I mean I'm sure Congress will add those details later.

Should be:

"just that stating what you THINK is going to be inserted in order to justify making some bullshit hyperbolic argument about euthanasia is dishonest and intellectually weak.

I've never stated that Congress won't be filling out details later, just that stating what you THINK is going to be inserted in order to justify making some bullshit hyperbolic argument about euthanasia.

#105 | Posted by jpw at 2009-08-11 02:28 PM

Since 90c2cab didn't say he/she thought it was going to be inserted into the bill, just that not being part of the bill doesn't mean it won't be added later when all the details are hashed out, you clearly show a lack of reading comprehension.

Speaking of failed reading comprehension...

If the Republicans weren't "dishonest and intellectually weak", they would not be Republicans.

"Hell, you can't even cite a case you know of personally where someone has been denied coverage and here you are complaining about it.

#83 | Posted by eberly"

Ebs, I've sued insurance companies for wrongful denial several times. Every single time they've paid for the treatment, but not until the covered person had to pay me. My favorite one was a woman who got hit in the face with a softball, breaking her jaw. The ins co tried to claim that the necessary surgery was somehow cosmetic. If you think wrongful denials by ins co.'s don't happen, you are living in a fantasy world.

Wow, you sure are stupid.
Since 90c2cab didn't say he/she thought it was going to be inserted into the bill, just that not being part of the bill doesn't mean it won't be added later when all the details are hashed out, you clearly show a lack of reading comprehension.

And my point being without any sort of indication that it WILL be inserted in the future, the argument is worthless.

I comprehended just fine what he was saying, you evidently don't get the fact that what he's saying is bullshit and not worth the bandwidth he used to post it.

And my point being without any sort of indication that it WILL be inserted in the future, the argument is worthless.

#110 | Posted by jpw at 2009-08-11 02:53 PM

I comprehended just fine what he was saying

Right... that's why you keep suggesting that he was saying euthanasia is going to be in the final bill, when he specifically said "may."

It doesn't matter what ambiguous word he uses, it's a crap statement made to back up a worse one.

What is all this talk against euthanasia? What have the young Japanese done to you?

Insurance corporations will do anything to keep from paying out on a claim...

This is why the "Public Option" is the only hope Americans have for real health care reform...

"The market will adjust in time" attitude from our friends to the right of the aisle has had what, 4 or 5 decades to "adjust"? How long do we wait for these corporate whores to provide some relief to those of us who are uninsured, or those of us "insured" but just happen to get sick...

Christ, WTF is insurance for if your coverage is denied when you get sick and/or are dying???

As I've said before: if you make less than a million/year and are Republican, you are misinformed... Or, JFS (Just F%#*ing Stupid)...

Insurance corporations will do anything to keep from paying out on a claim...

#114 | Posted by Capt_Of_Uranus at 2009-08-11 05:15 PM | Reply | Flag: Retarded Hyperbole so didn't read the rest