Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs
Tuesday, July 14, 2009

House Democrats are preparing on Tuesday afternoon to unveil a full draft of their sweeping health care legislation, including an income surtax on the country's highest wage-earners to help pay the 10-year, roughly $1 trillion cost of the measure.

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The timing is pefect.

If Michale Jackson (like a great number of persons
of color) had had adequate health-care, he
likely would not have died so soon.

Hopefully this bill can be rushed through before
the selfish greedy reigh-wingers know what's up.

Health-care for all.
Health-care for free!

Be Well.

Well just bend me over and slap my ass!

Wow true efficiency, just like the post office and our national debt!

I want to point everyone here to this article:

blogs.tnr.com

It talks about an interview with the President where along with his healthcare he discusses the last few weeks his grandmother was alive. What I found shocking about this, was that he basically admits that he will create a two-tier system. Those with government insurance and those with the cash to pay for care. He's talking about how end of life care (for the elderly and the chronically sick) accounts for 80% of costs and we need to have a difficult conversation about that (basically meaning drawing a line in the sand saying "no more treatment, go and die"), and how his grandmother at the end of her life needed a hip transplant. Here is what he said:

"I don't know how much that hip replacement cost. I would have paid out of pocket for that hip replacement just because she's my grandmother."

Obama is a millionaire, he can afford to pay for what his healthcare system won't. Can you?

My one real complaint is the requirement that businesses with payrolls over 250k have to pay into a health care plan. That's not exactly a lot of money when you consider payroll taxes, unemp., etc. Depending on your business, you might only be employing 2 or 3 people on those numbers. I'd be a lot happier if that number were raised... considerably.

This had better help to lower costs or we'll all be fucked by deficits that make $1.1T look like chump change.

"This had better help to lower costs"

Does anyone honestly think it will?

Obama is a millionaire, he can afford to pay for what his healthcare system won't. Can you?

I'm a bit nihilistic, so I have no qualms with a bit of Darwinism in our medical system: keep the strong, the young, and the productive healthy; let the old and the weak pass on (in comfort, at least). Unfortunately, in this case, we're relying on fiat to make the determination as to who is "strong, healthy, and productive" vs. "old and weak". The other option is for the state to make that determination. No thanks to that.

I'm not sure that the public option will necessarily lead to a two-tiered system, where the wealthy get better treatment than your average bloke.

Sure, a wealthy person might have more access to cosmetic surgeons and specialists who work with more "optional" treatments, but for the necessities, I would hope there would be a mandatory baseline for care.

Of course, Joe Blow will still be fucked when it comes to experimental treatments... Nothing's perfect, I guess.

If they really did it right they could easily lower costs by half and still provide good healthcare. Since it's the U.S. government they'll probably fuck it up.

Does anyone honestly think it will?

Does anyone honestly cling to the nearly superstitious belief that it absolutely wont?

Wait...

"including a new government-run insurance plan".
the liberals always complain about government programs; never enough, etc.... but still wants to give them more.

welcome to socialism

"Sure, a wealthy person might have more access to cosmetic surgeons and specialists who work with more "optional" treatments, but for the necessities, I would hope there would be a mandatory baseline for care."

President Obama has already talked about cutting payments to specialists and transferring that money to Primary Care Physicians. If the public option (which I believe in time will become the only option), isn't paying the specialists then the specialists won't accept it. They'll only take cash upfront. That will create a two tier system: those with insurance and those with cash.

"And part of what I think government can do effectively is to be an honest broker in assessing and evaluating treatment options."

-President Obama

Government deciding your treatment... not the guy/gal who went to medical school. Where do I sign up for this awesomeness?

whatsleft, of course they will "fuck it up". what haven't they fucked up?

the funny thing is the definition of the "highest wage earner" will continually change.................downwar d to the middle class.

what do they call the medical student that graduates at the bottom of his/her class?
..............................
..Doctor

this plan will insure our care will be at the lowest common denominator

I dunno, greendad... seems to me that our abundance of choice with respect to medicine is financed by pipe dreams of fake capital flowing into people's bank accounts like a raging rapid.

Part of the solution to our financial woes is to figure out what our means as a country really is. Something tells me that our "means" can't really afford half the quality of medicine that our populace believes its entitled to.

Hence, tough choices as to who should get what, have to be made. Quality goes down and we're all going to have to live with it. The problem is a lot of people believe that no one individual is entitled to more care than another -- even the hippocratic oath alludes to this -- and unfortunately, the only way, currently, to determine what kind of care an individual gets, is how much money is in his pocket. Doesn't exactly seem fair when you consider the dubious means by which people come into copious amounts of cash.

This belief in equality in free-market medicine runs counter to the wildly varied bank balances held by people in this country.

Oh my. The gods of the democratic party are almost ready to unveil universal healthcare.

About damn time.


Seeing that many of you spend entire days on this site I'm sure you're all excited about an eternity here on good ole earth. Right?


That is what universal healht care is all about.

Government deciding your treatment... not the guy/gal who went to medical school.

#11 | Posted by GreenDad

Right now insurance companies and the private corporations decide your treatment, specifically by your ability to pay... "not the guy/gal who went to medical school."

"Quality goes down and we're all going to have to live with it."

WHY!?!?! Why do 250 Million+ people have to suffer (and some die) so that President Obama can say he got coverage for 47 million?

For the life of me I don't get why people are supporting him on this. what is worse, 47 million uninsured or 300 million insured with horrendous care? I voted for him, I wish to God I hadn't now.

"Right now insurance companies and the private corporations decide your treatment, specifically by your ability to pay... "not the guy/gal who went to medical school."

#16 | Posted by Whatsleft "

I've never had any treatments denied by my insurance company, and yes, I've been pretty sick before. Although I did see one specialist who only took cash. Everyone might want to get used to that idea.

I voted for him, I wish to God I hadn't now.

#17 | Posted by GreenDad at 2009-07-14 09:15 PM


I'm sure you're not alone. Not much consolation, I'm sure. But it's the best I can do.

BTW Obama throws like a girl LOL

The only way that costs will ever come down is when none of us has health insurance.

I've never had any treatments denied by my insurance company, and yes, I've been pretty sick before.

#18 | Posted by GreenDad

Oh, if we're going by personal accounts, I know several people who have been denied coverage because of pre-existing conditions or canceled altogether after an illness.

Greendad, I think you misunderstand me. The need for quality to diminish is not based on this or that policy, it is based on my understanding that, as a country, we live way beyond our means to afford such medicinal opulence. Its not Obama's fault, or Bush's fault, or any one individuals' fault; its simply a reality that we have to live with, given our collective defect -- that we all believe we're worth more, entitled to more, and deserve more than we really are.

I think our standard of living is too high, and economics shows this when you consider our trade deficits. Our consumption of global resources vs creation of value is way out of line compared to the rest of the world. One day soon, we'll all be driving fewer cars (perhaps none, for some of us), living in smaller houses, making less money, going on fewer vacations... and receiving care of less quality from our medical establishment as a result of this.

Oh my. The gods of the democrat party are almost ready to unveil universal health care.

I bet many of you just can't wait to get sick.

Free stuff is great. Eh?

"Oh, if we're going by personal accounts, I know several people who have been denied coverage because of pre-existing conditions or canceled altogether after an illness.

#22 | Posted by Whatsleft "

I've heard these stories too, but I've also heard plenty of stories like mine.

Why not just make a law that insurance companies can't do this, rather than destroy health care for the rest of America?

Many secularists believe in Darwinism, they just don't believe in it when it's their turn to die.

apparatchik I just don't have that pessimistic of an outlook at our future. I refuse to accept that a quarter of a billion people should have to accept shit healthcare so some politician can put a check mark on his "to do" list.

Appartachick is correct about health care people seem to think we're entitled to. We can't afford it.

I know an 18 year old girl who has been getting chemo for arthritis for a couple of years. Yearly cost is over 200k.

I know a couple of 50 year old males shooting insulin. Daily.

I've known 2 cancer patients that were cancer survivors until (both less than 2 years) their 2 million lifetime benefits were exhausted. My view, they'd have been better off if they only had 2,000 in lifetime benefits. I'd never go through what I watched them go through. I sure don't call it life.

I could go on but won't.

Appartachick is correct. We can't afford the health care many people think we are entitled to.

Appartachick is correct. We can't afford the health care many people think we are entitled to.

#28 | Posted by Washboard

I guess that depends on what your expectations are but yes, we can afford it. Reasonable healthcare is already being provided in several other countries around the world, for much less than it's costing us in the U.S.

"Reasonable healthcare"

Seems like a very subjective phrase

Seems like a very subjective phrase

#30 | Posted by GreenDad

Not so subjective when at least 30 countries have a better ranking for healthcare then the U.S.

Greendad: "Government deciding your treatment... not the guy/gal who went to medical school. Where do I sign up for this awesomeness?"

Dude, do you have insurance? If so, this is pretty much how it works. Not government, but private industry. Still not the guy/gal who went to medical school.

I know an 18 year old girl who has been getting chemo for arthritis for a couple of years. Yearly cost is over 200k.

Ugh... that really sucks. The point that whatsleft makes, however, is: is chemo really _worth_ $200k per year or are those costs really the result of the implementation of our system?

See, we have a huge problem:

We have a system that is based on the market:

1. You pay for services as needed. If you can't pay, you don't get services because the dollar value of the service is a function of supply and demand.

2. Regulations demand that ALL people be treated, regardless of wealth, because our morals dictate that everyone has a right to medicine (whether this is clearly defined constitutionally, is irrelevant. The reality is that the system, for the most part, acts on this premise)

3. Because demand outstrips supply, due to the rule that all must be treated, costs go up. This results in the need for insurance companies, entities that collect your cash for theoretical "safe-keeping" by tying your money up into other investment instruments and funding your care in the event you should need them.

4. The existence of insurance companies and the overhead they impose creates further price pressure, resulting in exaggerated inflationary effects over time.

5. Finally, insurance begins to become unaffordable in order to maintain profitability and payouts to claimants, so many cannot afford even basic health services -- but all the while, we're still adhering to item 2.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

So, the problem lies in one of two places:

1. The idea that an individual's health should not be impacted by his or her ability to pay for necessary medicine
2. The market-based, insurance model

It simply boils down to which one of these two things we, as a society, can live without.

Of course, the market-based insurance model will ultimately fail, mostly because its statistically stupid to attempt to "insure", at a profit, against that which is undoubtedly inevitable. Your house may or may not be destroyed in a hurricane, you may or may not wreck your car in the next 30 years, but you're damn sure going to need medical treatment at one point or another.

Problem is, while I believe the choice is obvious -- whether to deny care or to ditch the market-based insurance model -- I think, as a nation, we're so broke, we might have to give up on both.

perhaps if our monetary system was sound and not based on debt.....

Oh, and lets not even mention that our society is of the largely (no pun intended) fast food-driven, anti-exercise, hover-round (which, as the ads say, your tax dollars generously provide to the immobile) variety.

That pressure will no doubt raise prices, and we can break it down all the way down to the lower MPG of our ambulances, trying to cart away a 450 pound neighbor who just keeled over from a coronary while slurping down on a 128oz big gulp.

And notice how obesity and poor habits coincide nicely with the decline in funding for PE programs in our schools and the "everyone's a winner" mentality that allows parents to sign their kids out of such programs.

Interesting times we live in...

I suppose medicine and insurance is on my mind as I've gotta pay to get my wisdom teeth yanked on Friday. Exciting!

Glad I have dental insurance :-P

Glad I have dental insurance :-P

#35 | Posted by apparatchik

Most dental plans have a yearly maximum payout and do not cover pre-existing conditions. In the long run, dental unsurance may not be worth the money, unless it's provided by an employer as a benefit.

www.investopedia.com

Apparatchik (or whomever you used to be on here)

...I suppose medicine and insurance is on my mind as I've gotta pay to get my wisdom teeth yanked on Friday. Exciting!

Be sure and get some pain medication to tide you over for the weekend. You probably won't have any problems or much discomfort but you don't want to be stuck until Monday until you can call your dentist. Make sure he gives you Vicodin or at least something stronger than aspirin.

Most dental plans have a yearly maximum payout

no kidding,pay out is normaly about 1500 a year.My last two root canals with caps were about 1900 a piece.About 5000 fixed my teeth after years of misery.

Advice to all,save yourself the misery and be there every six months

I had mine pulled one at a time. Didn't need anything for pain.

It wasn't bad at all.

Most dental plans have a yearly maximum payout and do not cover pre-existing conditions. In the long run, dental unsurance may not be worth the money, unless it's provided by an employer as a benefit.

#36 | Posted by Whatsleft at 2009-07-14 11:53 PM

Things may have changed, but it used to be if your wisdom teeth were totally impacted (meaning the teeth were entirely under the gum) then it's considered a surgical procedure (rather than just dental) and your medical insurance will often pick up the tab.


I had mine pulled one at a time. Didn't need anything for pain.


It wasn't bad at all.

Good for you,maybe I'll check out your religion after all,just kidding,good for you!

LOL Bruce

Anytime you want.to talk about it, let me know!!

Anytime you want.to talk about it, let me know!!

#42 | Posted by Lisa


You never say this to me. Wonder why?

I never had any wisdom teeth, but I recently found out that I have somewhat advanced periodontal disease that's going to be pretty expensive to treat. Even if I had dental insurance it probably wouldn't cover 10 percent of what this is going to cost me. I never thought I had much to worry about because I brushed good, saw a dentist every couple of years and haven't needed very many fillings.

You never say this to me. Wonder why?


You wonder why?

Say it ain't so Mr. Masters Degree, please say it ain't so

califchris: I've always been apparatchik... I'm just usually very quiet. I seldom appreciate partisan bullshittery but something keeps me reading these threads.

Doc gave me percocet... Not a big fan of acetaminophen, but it should do the trick. I doubt it will be that bad though since the teeth aren't impacted and are a long way from the nerve.

My dental insurance helped somewhat. Probably 60% of my overall costs were covered last year and I had a fair amount of work done. The rest was cash since I'm fortunate enough to have a decent job that pays well. Wish I could say the same for some of my college-grad friends whose grills are deteriorating rapidly and who have no hope in sight to find better employment to fund their dental work. Many are wage slaves.

Whenever I hear someone refer to slavery in the US in the past tense, I have to laugh.

if it's not free and universal, then we're behind the curve
if it's not public and open to private options, then we're behind the curve
if doctor's still don't make house calls, then we're behind the curve
if a broken toe still costs $7,000, then we're behind the curve
if it costs money and people are FORCED to buy it, then we're behind the curve
if americans still don't understand that we should be judged by how we treat the least among us, then we're behind the curve

democrats don't want universal gov't health care
republicans don't want gov't health care at all
time for a 3rd option, people!

LOL

We have Aetna for health and dental. I pay 22 for health and 8 bucks for dental every 2 weeks. Thank God for the union getting me good insurance.


Gimme why do you hate the fact I was able to get an education. I served in the military to get the GI Bill so it's not like I was some lazy kid with rich parents.

Finally! People who vote for one party will get health care. What a relief. Those of the other party get what they deserve.
Oh. Sorry. I did not mean to blow the strategy.

Health care for everyone,WWJD

So let's see:

VA Care is gov't run -- check
Medicaid is gov't run -- check
Medicare is gov't run -- check
Indian Health Care is gov't run -- check

And so, given the gov't track record, people think the gov't can actually do better with "everybody" health care?

Ask someone on a reservation why you shouldn't get sick after June...

---

Scratch medical research...won't be nearly the same incentive anymore.

---

Do I get a choice now? Yep, even with an insurance company that "decides" on treatments...I can always change insurance plans or dip into my own pocket.

With O-care I won't get to change plans...I'll also be FORCED to have plan or pay a penalty.

Will it be free? Hell no....I actually still work for a living. It will be free for the "freeloaders" and those that don't work. But once again, "no new taxes" become "no new OBVIOUS taxes" since other costs will be going up.

WWJD? He'd tell you to take care of yourself. And for YOU to take care of your brother. Not to let your brother be taken care of by "the government."

But hey, "They won." And now we get to enjoy the ride...to hell in the handbasket.

and the line will be in 4 years"we had no idea this would by 500 billion a year more ,we didn't factor in population growth,illegal migration or inflation and those savings from medicare and medicaid what were we thinking"


So how many people are taking a bet that there will be at least a 200 page amendment on a Friday afternoon around 5 PM before the bill is passed at 7PM ?

I'd say there is a better than even money bet riding there....

All you people can go fuck yourself because my little girl needs insurance in case something happens and I really don't care how many if fucks over because crappy health care is better than no health care....


Oh and I can't get covered even if I could afford it because I have epilepsy and I have to go six months without being in a doctors care before I would be covered. Six months could mean a death sentence and since I am a single parent that would mean my little girl would be put in a dangerous situation.

And Harry Reid has the balls to say this won't cost anything? Enjoy yourselves until 2014 when the lights are turned off.

We can give Goldman-Sachs and their co-conspirators (an International Criminal Organization working in concert with our own Government) $2.55 trillion in the blink of an eye, spend more on weapons of mass destruction than the rest of the world combined, but we can't afford health care much less food for all.

Why would anybody accept such ridiculous logic. Eisenhower stood up and warned us not to do this before he retired. Everyone soon forgot.

I think it will pass the House, but the Senate is another story.

Elections have consequences.

"And Harry Reid has the balls to say this won't cost anything? Enjoy yourselves until 2014 when the lights are turned off."

Get ready...they are already playing CYA.


"Important Caveats Regarding This Preliminary Analysis:
There are several reasons why the preliminary analysis that is provided in this
letter and its attachments does not constitute a comprehensive cost estimate for
the coverage provisions of America's Affordable Health Choices Act:"

"Second, some effects of the proposal have not yet been fully captured in our
analysis. In particular, we have not yet estimated the administrative costs to
the federal government of implementing the specified policies, nor have we
accounted for all of the proposal's likely effects on spending for other federal programs."

Read the CBO report:

michellemalkin.cachefly.net

The story I read said it would cover 97% by 2019. That is still 3% uncovered or 10 million people. We are going to spend a trillion dollars and still not cover 10 million people.

Tha other thing people keep saying is it is free. We are going to spend a trillion dollars how is that free. Have you ever known a govt program to operate under budget. It will be AT LEAST a trillion.

I get it, free to you because someone else is paying for it.

Make that 1.5 Trillion.

one socialist nation, under god, income indivisible, Amen.

I get it, free to you because someone else is paying for it.

#60 | Posted by RussellO

Tack this amount on top of the Budget Deficite and Federal tax shortfall. This guy is going to make Jimmy Carter look like a fucking mastermind.

I find it stunningly unfair that he plans on paying for this by hitting the rich with a 5% surtax. That just blows my mind. If this goes thru we will have socialism in its purest form in this country, with certain people paying for other people's care. It's just not right no matter how you look at it.

I'm not rich. I'm one of the ones who would be benefiting from this and I find it disgusting. If I am able, I will still continue to pay for my personal health care account. I'm not sure if they plan on making people get out of those or not to join the government's plan.

#55

There's an objective argument. We should all submit to a policy that bankrupts the nation and lowers the standard of care because it helps ME. This country is more concerned with making emotional decisions based on personal circumstances than it is about making rational decisions based on logic. Witness the downfall of western society and the end of the age of reason.

Hey Everlong--you're already paying for someone else's care, both through work-based health insurance (if you have a job with health insurance, unless that health insurance is fully paid for) and through cost to the system of having so many people uninsured and unhealthy. Preventive care is actually a bigger deal than insurance, I think, but the two go hand in hand. My healthcare provider actually pays members for engaging in fitness plans (theirs)--it's called incentive...

Actually, VEHI, the unholy alliance of state, corporate, and school board (that's Vermont Educators Health Initiative) could be a great model for a federal plan... At least until HRAs come along and BCBS falls to that idiocy.

"I find it stunningly unfair that he plans on paying for this by hitting the rich with a 5% surtax. That just blows my mind. If this goes thru we will have socialism in its purest form in this country, with certain people paying for other people's care."

Interesting note, Truman first proposed national health insurance and tax rates at the time were as high as 90% in the highest brackets. Eisenhower, no commie, didn't lower them. Compared to today we were far more socialist in the fifties and sixties....even with that sur tax which just puts back the percentage that taxes were cut for the wealthy by Bush.

Goddman Commie that Eisenhower.

the funny thing is the definition of the "highest wage earner" will continually change.................downwar d to the middle class.


#12 | Posted by Maverick at 2009-07-14 08:59

BINGO BABY

IT ALWAYS DOES

and libs will talk about SCREWING the big corps is okay...but when they screw the big corp...THEY pass that along and it DOES dribble down in those cases and it will in these

How can I prove the previous??

EASY..

LOOK at reports coming out of MASS.......
their program that was played out even by romney
IS IN SERIOUS FISCAL TROUBLE......

and .l....OH NO>..................they are rationing health care and talking about

RAISING TAXES................and that program isnt ANYHERE as severe as the one these dems ARE wanting to throw on us

let me ask THEM A question


HEY HOUSE DEMS>>

YOU GET ON THIS PLAN AND THEN YOU CAN PUT ME ON IT.......

Compared to today we were far more socialist in the fifties and sixties....even with that sur tax which just puts back the percentage that taxes were cut for the wealthy by Bush.

#67 | Posted by danni at 2009-07-15 10:41 AM | Reply | Flag: Flag: (Choose)
FunnyNewsworthyOffensiveAbusiv
e


all those high tax rates huh???

and lets see.....congress was...democrat controlled for HOW many years??????????

"and lets see.....congress was...democrat controlled for HOW many years??????????"

Wasted effort. Don't you know Danni's ONE core belief? If not, it's...

Democrats....GOOD!
Republicans...BAD!

"Compared to today we were far more socialist in the fifties and sixties...."

Tell me, just WHEN was it that the government acquired GM, Chrysler, AIG, banks and whatever the hell else? How did they sneak it past us back in the fifties and sixties? Time to put down the bong now, Danni. Take your little nappy-poo and we'll see you later this afternoon....when your brain recovers at least a little ability to function.

THIS LINK will show you just WHERE this will be the kiss of death to some economic issues of this bill

its not the giant corps, or the government

but the REAL victims AND THE people who will ACTUALLY PAY FOR all of this democrat BULLSHIT are given to you in THIS LINK


www.newsmax.com

THATS right...

not Ge or rich dems or the AIG"S of the country or like that
but SMALL business who stuggles and who also by the way CREATES MORE JOBS THAN OTHERS........at least they do BEFORE dems get thier hands on them

AND REAL DISTURBING clip from the messiah

talked about end of life care...

said.......Maybe you would be better off if you didnt have a proceedure but were given a pain killer..

honest to God..I heard him say that.....

what an ass....hey BARRY...if michells mom had an accident and you told michelle to just give her a tynol...would THAT fly in YOUR HOUSE???

I think not

Kinda off topic, does anyone know if Skippy is for real, or does he/she just say stupid stuff to try to make liberals look ridiculous?

MORE NEWS coming about mass health care coming apart because of SAME THINGS we talk about..

He's talking about how end of life care (for the elderly and the chronically sick) accounts for 80% of costs and we need to have a difficult conversation about that (basically meaning drawing a line in the sand saying "no more treatment, go and die"), and how his grandmother at the end of her life needed a hip transplant. Here is what he said:-Greendad


This is one of the major problems with socialized health care. The old and the very young are basically fucked. The system doesn't include them. Also, for people with serious illnesses, they may not get the help they need before it's to late because, contrary to what some here say, there is a waiting list. And beaurocrats sit in an office and decide who gets care and who doesn't. Socialized health care is a nightmare. I don't care what any of you say about Canada or Britain. We have the best health care in the word when it comes to quality of treatment and the speed in which you get it. Those of you who are all gaga over this crap are flat out ignorant.


All you people can go fuck yourself because my little girl needs insurance in case something happens and I really don't care how many if fucks over because crappy health care is better than no health care....


Oh and I can't get covered even if I could afford it because I have epilepsy and I have to go six months without being in a doctors care before I would be covered. Six months could mean a death sentence and since I am a single parent that would mean my little girl would be put in a dangerous situation.

#55 | Posted by richardspirit


Well, why don't you get off your ass and get a job that offers health insurance. I know if I had a kid they would have insurance one way or another. And you could always just buy a personal policy for her. They aren't that expensive, especially for a kid. But, it sounds like you just want things given to you. Sorry about your epilepsy but people live and work with that affliction every day.

"This is one of the major problems with socialized health care"

But it's not just SHC.

With the baby boomers retiring, the demand will spike, while the supply will not. Costs will spiral upward, to the point where it will become out of reach for more and more. If we don't find a way to decrease the cost per capita of health (not just health care), we're in for more rationing than you could ever imagine.

"We have the best health care in the word when it comes to quality of treatment and the speed in which you get it."

We also have the highest percentage of uninsured of any Western Industrialized nation.

Hey Everlong--you're already paying for someone else's care, both through work-based health insurance (if you have a job with health insurance, unless that health insurance is fully paid for) and through cost to the system of having so many people uninsured and unhealthy.-Pragmatist


I mentioned that I pay for my own individual insurance policy. It is not thru work. And yes we pay indirectly for people's care thru medicare. However, Obama's plan is to pay for his plan by bilking the rich with a 5% surtax. That means that only a certain portion of the country is paying for the rest of the countries health care. It is redistribution of wealth of the worst kind. Anyone who get's upset when Obama is called a socialist is just ignorant. He is socialist thru and thru.

" It is redistribution of wealth of the worst kind."

Not very familiar with the Bush tax codes, are you?

Danforth, you actually believe that the cost of health care will decrease? It may come down some but this plan will be no savior of the system. I can't believe that people actually believe that the government is going to make this run efficiently. If this plan goes thru, health care is going to be a nightmare. This is a terrible thing for this country.

"We have the best health care in the word when it comes to quality of treatment and the speed in which you get it."



Care to back that up with facts?

congress was...democrat controlled for HOW many years??????????

So you are saying that Eisenhower was too much of a pussy to stand up to Congress??????????????????????
?????????????

"Danforth, you actually believe that the cost of health care will decrease"

I believe ultimately, it has to, or the system will break. As it is, medical inflation is pegged to equal actual inflation. Do you really believe that, with the dynamics of the BB retirement we're about to experience? I certainly don't, just based on the tenets of supply and demand. We're on an unsustainable path, i.e., we cannot afford the same type of care for the BB retirees as prior generations have received, and anyone who tells you differently has his head in the sand. Too many users and not enough workers to contribute.

" If this plan goes thru, health care is going to be a nightmare."

Point to other places in the world that spend about half as much of their GDP, cover everyone, and still have better overall health outcomes as compared to the US, and make your point again. Be sure to include the positive aspect of no medical bankruptcies, which are the #1 reason for bankruptcies in America.

This is a terrible thing for this country.

#84 | Posted by everlong at 2009-07-15 02:23 PM | Reply | Flag:

Well, this is all the Noppers seemed to be able to say, do, think, but thats OK, they never had any action unless it was to help the elite rich.

If you continue to bitch and moan without adding any ideas this is what you get.

Healthcare is a problem in this country and needs to be addressed, and since people like you thinks it working just fine, they don't feel the need for your imput.

The problem is the capitalistic medical system sucks but that issue is the elephant behind the door.

Too much demand from the old retiring boomers causing the prices to spike so high the rest of society can't afford healthcare.

The capitalistic healthcare system is great for for the elite boomers and they could careless about the rest of society and its future.

""We have the best health care in the word when it comes to quality of treatment and the speed in which you get it."

No according to WHO. They rate our system 37th.

"Anyone who get's upset when Obama is called a socialist is just ignorant. He is socialist thru and thru."

I can accept that but if so then so too were Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson and Nixon who all approved of tax rates much higher than Obama is talking about. Even Reagan's tax cuts were no lower than the rates Obama desires.

elephant behind the door.

#89 | Posted by moneywar at 2009-07-15 02:39 PM

Is that an actual idiom, or are you just an idiot?

Healthcare is a problem in this country and needs to be addressed, and since people like you thinks it working just fine, they don't feel the need for your imput.

So if all republicans claim our system is fine, would it be fair to say, all dems think our health as a nation is fine and doesn't need to be addressed? Therefor don't need their input on 60% being overweight?

Is that an actual idiom, or are you just an idiot?

#92 | Posted by JOE at 2009-07-15 02:53 PM | R


He's an idiot.

I believe he means it's "the elephant in the room".
As usual, he tries to impress people he's never met by using words and phrases he doesn't understand. I think he's read some of Pinche's posts and fell in love. The problem is Pinche knows what the words are, and Englishwar doesn't.

"I can accept that but if so then so too were Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson and Nixon who all approved of tax rates much higher than Obama is talking about. Even Reagan's tax cuts were no lower than the rates Obama desires."

Don't be so friggin' ignorant, Danni. Tax rates aren't what define socialism. Not ONE of those administrations advocated government ownership of GM, now did they? Just take a look at what socialism is and then tell us Obama is a socialist like Truman, kennedy Eisenhower and the others you named. Obama is a bona fide 100% certified socialist.


"Socialism refers to any one of various theories of economic organization advocating public or collective ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and a society characterized by equal opportunities/means for all individuals with a more egalitarian method of compensation.[1] Modern socialism originated in the late 18th-century intellectual and working class political movement that criticized the effects of industrialization and private ownership on society. Karl Marx posited that socialism would be achieved via class struggle and a proletarian revolution and become the transitional stage from capitalism to communism.[2][3]"


"We have the best health care in the word when it comes to quality of treatment and the speed in which you get it."

Care to back that up with facts? - 726

Responsivness, level... #1. Switzerland #2
whqlibdoc.who.int

What is telling in the above link is that our populations habits are unhealthy.


Here is the chart of what the health care destruction look like..


docs.house.gov

What we be needings is to be cutting more taxes fer them rich folks. Them folks be making us all a job with thems insurances and won't be no kinda problem no more. Thems rich folks don't be needing to pay no taxes cuz they needs to be studying on hiring all them folks ain't got healthy insurancing and no kinda job. Ain't no kinda way them folks needs to be paying no taxations cuz thems speciall folk be about taxed on out & be over to them White Power Tee Partays and ain't lookin so healthy on over to them Tee Partays. Them Rich Tee Partay folks be lookin all fat and pasty and needs to be all healthee to makes them jobs when ain't a paying no kinda taxations. USA USA USA!!!

What is likely to happen over time is something similar to medicare i.e. the government option will take care of the basics and people will purchase additional insurance from private insurance carriers to cover what the government option won't pay.

Unveil? They are going to ram it through!

This government takeover of your health care by the lib/dems will mean a death sentence for someone you know or love. Look at the death rates for breast cancer in the UK or other universal health care countries. Waiting months in line behind the slackers, drug addicts, and 25 million illegal aliens for rationed tests, treatments, or banned expensive medicines will destroy you or your family. Is that what you voted for with these monsters???!!! Call or email your elected officials and tell them you don't want this disasterous takeover to happen before it's too late. It's your family's health at stake...

www.nypost.com

The country will not survive until 2012. Obama and the dems are either fucking stupid or trying to destroy the country on purpose. Those are the only possibilities.

#96 | Posted by AndreaMackris

Google cancer survival rates. Google survival rates after heart attacks, etc..

#99 | Posted by TinyElvis at 2009-07-15 10:58 PM | Reply | Flag: I depend on others for my job and the government owes me.

#91 | Posted by danni at 2009-07-15 02:50 PM | Reply | Flag: I never met a tax I did not like - except on me.

Get ready...they are already playing CYA.



CORRECT JEST

houston congressman gene green whose district includes 5 refinaries already has an ad out that I heard yesterday...asked people to call him and thank him for saving the environment with his cap and trade vote.....and other CRAWFISHING statement that sound a lot like satomayor ALL DAY LONg

I have a note for you mister congressman green
I wont thank you buy I would be willing to help you empty your desk and move back home FOR GOOD......

AND AS I SAID YESTERDAY

obama keeps talking about something that should scare the shit out of everyone

he has talked twice in two days now about
"end of life care'

what does that mean...simple...if your treatment isnt cost effective when you are a certain age..
well fuck you...you would be a drain on the system and IN HIS OWN WORDS........."take a pain killer"

Enjoy that 57% tax rate you Change seeking retards...

Class warfare = ZERO

this is the first of several links giving us the REAL STORY behind obamacare..

and the LIES that they are telling to get us there...

number one...you can keep your private care provider


www.ibdeditorials.com

OBAMACARE wont lose jobs but will create jobs


www.nypost.com

no, no, no. no .no. You're not supposed to release the details until after the vote's already been taken.

-Nancy Pelosi

Oh, the lies never end. Why would the Insurance Industry spend $1.4 million a day killing Health Care reform in Congress? So they won't have to pay for any more operations?

Remember this one?

Fresh from a two-day weekend visit to Iraq, the Bush administration's top health-care official defended the $950 million that will be spent to help Iraq establish universal health care.
Congressional Democrats have criticized the administration for helping Iraq to establish universal health care without doing the same for U.S. citizens.

www.foxnews.com

Seems the CBO disagrees with the messiah - this guy won't have his job long.

We are so screwed. And these idiots don't care. I don't care who it is, I'm voting for the challenger!

he has talked twice in two days now about
"end of life care'


what does that mean...simple...if your treatment isnt cost effective when you are a certain age..
well fuck you...you would be a drain on the system and IN HIS OWN WORDS........."take a pain killer"

#108 | Posted by afkabl2 at 2009-07-16 11:25 AM | Reply |

Trust me AFK, when you get to that point you'll be more than happy to sign off anyway.

If you knew much of anything about end of life care, you'd know that this is nothing new, at all.

When your at that stage, no surgery in the world is going to save you. The best they can do is make the end go easier. Or to put it in cold-hearted facts its no longer cost effective LOL.

Why give heart transplants to people that are dead next week regardless.

But this has become a BIG deal, because this is where healthcare removes any remaining finances you might have had. End of days care is absurdly expensive. This is why its an issue.


The story I read said it would cover 97% by 2019. That is still 3% uncovered or 10 million people. We are going to spend a trillion dollars and still not cover 10 million people.


Tha other thing people keep saying is it is free. We are going to spend a trillion dollars how is that free. Have you ever known a govt program to operate under budget. It will be AT LEAST a trillion.


I get it, free to you because someone else is paying for it.

#60 | Posted by RussellO at 2009-07-15 09:40 AM | Reply |


I've read half that 3% is condsidered to be illegal aliens. And the rest people that flat out won't sign up for some reason or another. I haven't seen any aspect of the program that would exclude anyone who was willing.


Your right, definately not free. We are all going to be paying for it. But really nothing new here, unless your recieving alot of medical attention your definately paying for someone else, unless your not covered at all.


www.nypost.com


The country will not survive until 2012. Obama and the dems are either fucking stupid or trying to destroy the country on purpose. Those are the only possibilities.

#103 | Posted by ELCIDCE90 at 2009-07-16 10:35 AM | Reply |

Odd that an impartial graph would leave out the impact of existing healthcare costs... Why are all the examples assuming no current health care coverage. Your really telling me a guy smart enough to pull $115,00 year lacks the instinct of self-preservation?


And wow seriously inhale/exhale. The country has been around over 200 years and survived several wars, but you think were done by 2012 due to healthcare? Wow you NEED some healthcare I must say.

"We are all going to be paying for it. "

Absolutely true, but we're already doing that. The trick is to find where it can be delivered cheaper AND better, and attack those areas.

Where we need to hold their feet to the fire:

1. Per capita cost of health care delivery DECREASES.
2. Universal coverage available to all citizens who wish.
3. Health outcomes INCREASE overall.
4. We move folks from ERs to GPs.
5. We change the concentration from cure to prevention.
6. Most importantly, we must try to keep medical inflation apace with core inflation; if it keeps on the same current path...game over. Outpacing inflation, combined with the supply/demand spike ahead, will bury us all.

Problem is, while I believe the choice is obvious -- whether to deny care or to ditch the market-based insurance model -- I think, as a nation, we're so broke, we might have to give up on both.

#33 | Posted by apparatchik at 2009-07-14 11:07 PM | Reply |

Lol good job at shitting on our wheaties.


This government takeover of your health care by the lib/dems will mean a death sentence for someone you know or love. Look at the death rates for breast cancer in the UK or other universal health care countries. Waiting months in line behind the slackers, drug addicts, and 25 million illegal aliens for rationed tests, treatments, or banned expensive medicines will destroy you or your family. Is that what you voted for with these monsters???!!! Call or email your elected officials and tell them you don't want this disasterous takeover to happen before it's too late. It's your family's health at stake...

#102 | Posted by bumpkin44 at 2009-07-16 08:08 AM | Reply |


Thats misleading. While the numbers are right, your conclusion is at odds with the people who published those numbers. They cited improved screening as the primary cause for our lower death rates and our higher cancer rates.

Not due to waiting in some line.

The current number for illegals is thought to be about 6 million.

no kidding,pay out is normaly about 1500 a year.My last two root canals with caps were about 1900 a piece.About 5000 fixed my teeth after years of misery.


Advice to all,save yourself the misery and be there every six months

#38 | Posted by bruceaz at 2009-07-14 11:59 PM | Reply |

I gotta agree. I kinda let my teeth go for about 1 year, and I've been paying for it the last 10.

fucking obama HNIC boy politics

"fixing" the healthcare system for a few by destroying it for the rest of us is not the way to do it.

1st) Nobody in the US cannot get health care - everyone can walk into any emergency room in the country and if they are injured they will recieve treatment - the issue is paying for that treatement.

And that is only an issue if the impact to our lives is catastrophic; A child that has a rare cancer that the HMO will not cover, an accident that requires massive surgery, Open Heart surgery or a lung transplant. This is a VERY small portion of all the health care that goes on in this country but is the most damaging to a family.

So..How do we fix that?

1) Instead of a massive convoluted government health maze that adds massive costs, complexity and will remove coverage for us - fund a state run bucket of money that pays for Catastophic issues. A family having this occur to them would request payment from the fund which would be adminstered by the state Government public health group.

2) CAP the medical malpractice judgements so that insurance companies have a known potential risk - this would lower Malpractice Insurance and that would result in lower cost to the medical community across the board

3) Make a medical license national and create a web site that tracks every lawsuit that hits a doctor / Nurse PLUS shows their accrediations and any symposium or additional training that he had. This will serve to run the bad ones out and identify the good ones.

4) Illegal Aliens that have a job and can get a written support from their employeer are finger printed, given an ID card, DNA Sample taken and allowed to work in the US for 10 years unless they submit to be come a citizen - if not a citizen after 10 years they are shipped back

5)Remove the non-working illegal Aliens from this country. This country was based on the rule of law - if you get in illegally you have proven you have no respect for the law. This alone will reduce the demand significantly especially in the boarder states where they come in to have thier children so that they have citizen status

This would result in an estimated 500B in cost to the medical community that would result in lower costs for all of us.

Medicare is bankrupt BUT Obama now wants us to take on the rest of the country and force it through the same as Medicare.

Just google and see all the people that cannot get what they need in the UK or Canada or France or anyother of the socialist countries via the Health care system - and they STILL have to get private insurance coverage to fill in the gaps.

"Nobody in the US cannot get health care - everyone can walk into any emergency room in the country and if they are injured they will recieve treatment "

ALREADY the wrong approach. Unlike Bush & FOS, we should NOT be recommending those without health insurance simply go to the ER. That's the most expensive care-to-outcome ratio we have.

RE the others:
#1, a pretty good idea.
#2, another one...how much does it cost us now, as a percentage?
#3, Tough to run roughshod over state requirements, but if we can, great.
#4, Wow...good idea, but the Rs will go into conniptions.
#5, Agreed, but a bit of a contradiction with #4. They can break the law if they have a job?

"Medicare is bankrupt"

That's a lack proper funding, nothing else.

"Just google and see all the people that cannot get what they need in the UK or Canada or France or anyother of the socialist countries via the Health care system"

Whoa...no country that delivers better overall outcomes for much, MUCH less of the GDP while covering everyone should be discounted. If our per capita cost of health delivery was the same as France's, and the overall outcomes were as good, we'd be much better off. Will we all get Cadillac Care? No, but the macro numbers weren't going to give us that anyway during the boomer retirement. Not with so many more using the system and so many fewer supporting it.

Need more evidence of a market failure? Watch Bill Moyer's interview with Wendell Potter, Cigna's former Head of Corporate Communications.
#97 | Posted by policyhack

Saw that. Not surprising, but depressing.

If this is supposed to be so good for us, we need to ask the question:

Why won't congress, the president, federal workers or any of their families be on the plan? Not good enough for them?

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