Drudge Retort: Red Meat for Yellow Dogs
Wednesday, July 08, 2009

Eric Phillips: Each year I guide ski expeditions across the pack ice to the North Geographic Pole and each year brings new surprises -- severe storms rarely seen in these parts, vast tracts of first-year ice where there should be years of accumulation, pack ice drifting faster and farther than ever before. The veneer of fractured ice over the Arctic Ocean is changing, disintegrating before my eyes.

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uh...yeah. Global warming packed with personality cults for scientists who tow the BS line about alleged disasters.

Yeah, what a bunch of bull. I came across the 700 club while channel surfing a day or two ago, Pat Robertson said science is bad and people who believe it are deniers. Then he healed people through the TV.

yawn

Somebody tell this dickwad alarmist the artic ice has melted several times in the last million years.

before we burned any coal, or had electricity or before we mass bred cows and livestock.

These global warming idiots think the last 20 years are the only valid times in the history of the planet.

Idiots.

Kuma I officially label you a brownshirt.

As I said, ice melting that has existed for over 100k years is either human action, or you believe that the aliens are shooting the north pole.

A basic understanding of mathematics is all that should be required to understand this.

Now that very same mathematical reasoning doesn't tell us WHAT exactly man is doing, but unless you believe that vermin and his ilk are causing it with brain farts or some-such, then it's not too hard to guess.


It's all those people hiking around on the ice that is making it melt.

Um SHawn, I hate to be your father who should have told you this when you were 5, but the earth has existed BILLIONS of years. ABout 4.5 Billion.

We have gone through many, many cycles and the earth has been as much as 10C more than it is now.

Sorry I had to fill in for your daddy. I feel sorry for you, your Daddy was a dumbfuck.

Kuma

Clearly Kuma is not familiar with the concept of rate of change.

Hey, dumbfuck, the earth has cooled in the last 10 years.

You dispute this?

Hey, dumbfuck, the earth has cooled in the last 10 years

#9 | Posted by kuma at 2009-07-08 07:17 PM

Got a link, Douchebag?

I don't know about the last 10 years, but the last 120 have most certainly been getting warmer.

www.ncdc.noaa.gov

Yes brownshirt, but as i said, for this to be occurring at THIS time in particular would be an outlier that approaches the level of statistical insignificance. Now I don't expect you to know what those words actually mean. Nor do I have any interest in educating you, but those of us who actually went to collage and graduated get it pissant.

As for the rest of your petulant noise brownshirt, I will simply inform you that you are added proof that inbreeding is not conducive to brainpower.

There are those that listen to Fox news and their pseudo science and there are those that listen to their ministers who claim the earth is only 6ooo years old and there are those that actually use their brain and find out that the combination of Human consumption of oil by burning it and the several releases of carbon dioxide by other methods by humans is actually causing a heating of the atmosphere. Now its not much, just a couple of degrees, but that is enough to upset the balance of snowfall vs melting at both the North and South Poles AND the Greenland Ice cap. We've already lost most of the glaciers in Europe, The Ice fields on the African Mt. Kilomanjaro as well as most of the Glaciers in South America AND Alaska is changing fast. All cold temp fish have moved north. Trees are disappearing which used to be permanent fixtures. Anyone who doesnt believe that we have some blame for the rising temperature of the Earths atmosphere is a Nut or a Dumb A*s. But thats just MHO.

Dues this melting Arctic ice mean those crackpot global warming scientists will go the way of the polar bear - goody goody gumdrop.

ugh. damn spellchecker. foiled again...

Kuma fail.
Kuma be extinct soon.

Science 14 December 2007:
Vol. 318. no. 5857, pp. 1737 - 1742
DOI: 10.1126/science.1152509

Review
Coral Reefs Under Rapid Climate Change and Ocean Acidification
O. Hoegh-Guldberg,1* P. J. Mumby,2 A. J. Hooten,3 R. S. Steneck,4 P. Greenfield,5 E. Gomez,6 C. D. Harvell,7 P. F. Sale,8 A. J. Edwards,9 K. Caldeira,10 N. Knowlton,11 C. M. Eakin,12 R. Iglesias-Prieto,13 N. Muthiga,14 R. H. Bradbury,15 A. Dubi,16 M. E. Hatziolos17

Atmospheric carbon dioxide concentration is expected to exceed 500 parts per million and global temperatures to rise by at least 2C by 2050 to 2100, values that significantly exceed those of at least the past 420,000 years during which most extant marine organisms evolved. Under conditions expected in the 21st century, global warming and ocean acidification will compromise carbonate accretion, with corals becoming increasingly rare on reef systems.

www.sciencemag.org

I love this reasoning.

because ice is melting, somewhere, its caused by man almost entirely.

This is genius. And I also love the answer the earth has warmed over last 120 years, I don't know about the last 10.

LOL that IS PERFECT! LOL

Hey, douchebag. If the earth has cooled over the last 10 years, and C02 levels have gone up a great deal, doesn't that mean that MAN is not the main contributing factor to climate change?

You are not smart enough to figure this out, after all your father was a retard.

Nor do I have any interest in educating you, but those of us who actually went to collage and graduated get it pissant.

How much glue did you sniff at 'collage', anyway, genius?


Dues this melting Arctic ice mean those crackpot global warming scientists will go the way of the polar bear - goody goody gumdrop.

#14 | Posted by fwthom at 2009-07-08 07:26 PM |


Yes it "dues", Thommy.

You are not smart enough to figure this out, after all your father was a retard.

#17 | Posted by Kuma at 2009-07-08 07:31 PM |


Still waiting for the link, Cumma.

Commas go inside quotation marks, you dumb catfish fry cook.

It's summer, what do you expect?

In the '70s the government wanted us all scared about global cooling. They even wanted to create a tax to reverse this so called trend.

wiki.com

We are in a natural cooling cycle and have been for 10 years. You don't have to read this to see just look at the charts. AND LOOK AT THEM BECAUSE YOU WON'T SEE THEM ON CNN.

globalresearch

Kuma is NOT a brownshirt! A brown stain maybe but not a brownshirt!

Still waiting for the link, Cumma.

#20 | Posted by jerrytarkanian


Kuma not do links. Kuma know.

Here Kuma... hit this with one of yer clubs. Maybe it will go away.

State of Knowledge

www.epa.gov

As with any field of scientific study, there are uncertainties associated with the science of climate change. This does not imply that scientists do not have confidence in many aspects of climate science. Some aspects of the science are known with virtual certainty1, because they are based on well-known physical laws and documented trends. Current understanding of many other aspects of climate change ranges from "very likely" to "uncertain."
What's Known

Scientists know with virtual certainty that:

* Human activities are changing the composition of Earth's atmosphere. Increasing levels of greenhouse gases like carbon dioxide (CO2) in the atmosphere since pre-industrial times are well-documented and understood.
* The atmospheric buildup of CO2 and other greenhouse gases is largely the result of human activities such as the burning of fossil fuels.
* An "unequivocal" warming trend of about 1.0 to 1.7F occurred from 1906-2005. Warming occurred in both the Northern and Southern Hemispheres, and over the oceans (IPCC, 2007).
* The major greenhouse gases emitted by human activities remain in the atmosphere for periods ranging from decades to centuries. It is therefore virtually certain that atmospheric concentrations of greenhouse gases will continue to rise over the next few decades.
* Increasing greenhouse gas concentrations tend to warm the planet.



One week of hot weather, which would be over 85 in my book, this year. One frigging week in Southern California and it's aready pushing mid July. The gods must be angry.

We are in a natural cooling cycle and have been for 10 years. You don't have to read this to see just look at the charts. AND LOOK AT THEM BECAUSE YOU WON'T SEE THEM ON CNN.

globalresearch

#23 | Posted by wurster at 2009-07-08 07:52 PM | Reply | Flag

In 2006 Easterbrook projected global cooling between the years 2007-2011.

en.wikipedia.org

Lets see how he did.

2006--warmer

2007--warmer

2008-- warmer

oops

Not so good---but he says what you want to hear, so what difference does reality make.

30,000 scientists, including 9,000 Ph.Ds, and the guy that founded The Weather Channel, have debunked the man made global warming myth and want to sue Al Gore for fraud. Gore refuses to debate any of them.

www.youtube.com


Have you noticed how the global warming alarmists are starting to call it "climate change" now instead of global warming? That's because of the record cold temperatures being set all over the world, which shows there is not "global warming." So instead, now they call it "climate change." LOL

Why is it, whenever you read stories like this, you find out the author is connected to the "Global Warming Business" or is a government-grant sponge?

It's muggy here today in Southern California. Why?

We aren't suppose to have muggy weather on the West Coast 'cause we never have any rain and it's a desert climate.

Could it be something to do with global warming?

Save me, Al!

The E.P.A. isn't honest. They pick and choose their facts like they pick what business busted and what doesn't.

google.com

It's muggy here today in Southern California. Why?

I don't know but global warming has been very very good to the North Coast of Ca.

Shhhhhhhhhhhhh! don't tell anyone but, it has been sunny and warm up here lately and it is not supposed to do that. It is supposed be foggy and cold.

CC maybe we got your weather?

epa dishonesty is because the science is altered by the corporations. I'm sorry you happen to be too big an imbecile to understand this.

Um SHawn, I hate to be your father who should have told you this when you were 5, but the earth has existed BILLIONS of years. ABout 4.5 Billion.

We have gone through many, many cycles and the earth has been as much as 10C more than it is now.

Sorry I had to fill in for your daddy. I feel sorry for you, your Daddy was a dumbfuck.

Kuma

#7 | Posted by Kuma

Wow, you're a fountain of knowledge. If only the thousands of scientists who study global climate change had access to this information. Then maybe they wouldn't believe that wacky theory that pumping billions of tons of CO2 into the atmosphere would affect the climate.

Hysterical. Riddle me this, warming crowd. If your most outrageous warming estimates call for only a few degrees of cooling, max, why is all this snow and ice melting where it's already way the fuck below zero?

Take your GW agenda and shove it up your collective asses, where it belongs.

Yeah, yesterday it was colder than the day before so global warming ain't happening.


Forget global warming: Welcome to the new Ice Age

www.nationalpost.com

Ahhhh, I've been gone for a year and you folks are still around arguing. Well, in case you've forgotten, global warming is merely an excuse for envirofascists to create a panic and control situation. We've cooled sharply for at least 8 years....want a website? www.sppi.org...you can read the papers there, if you can......


Record Low Temperatures in the United States

www.iceagenow.com


Record low June temperatures around the world, again.

ilovecarbondioxide.com

Website correction: scienceandpublicpolicy.org

Ahhhh, I've been gone for a year and you folks are still around arguing.

LOL!

You have been gone for probably a couple of hours....just to lazy to look for your other handles.

What a dork.

Record low June temperatures around the world, again.

So, who cares?

Here is a link to a reprint of a July 1, 2009 letter to Congress by a team of atmospheric scientists.


stopsocialism.wordpress.com

Bull. It's called the summer melt. To be followed by the winter freeze-up, which starts in early September.

Global warming? Forget it. The global climate has been cooling since 2001, quite rapidly.

Greenhouse gases the cause? No. It's solar activity, as it has been for untold millenia. We are now in a protracted and deep solar minimum and the climate is cooling accordingly. The 0.5 C rise that came in all of the last century has been reversed by a 0.7 C drop in the last eight years.

Sea-levels rising? No again. There has been almost no measurable rise in global sea levels in the past century.

The models are calibration exercises based on a flimsy hypothesis. Garbage-in, garbage-out.

How quickly you deniers forget.


R12 and R22 were burning up the ozone but R 134 came along and repaired it, saving all of us. Just ask the politicians who made a bundle creating the path for R 134.



Actually R410A is the main replacement for R22.

Somebody tell this dickwad alarmist the artic ice has melted several times in the last million years.

before we burned any coal, or had electricity or before we mass bred cows and livestock.

These global warming idiots think the last 20 years are the only valid times in the history of the planet.

Idiots.

#4 | Posted by Kuma at 2009-07-08 06:53 PM | Reply | Flag:


There also weren't 6 Billion people on earth the last time it happened.

Idiots.

why didn't you list 502, 507 blah blah blah.

I'm not impressed. But happy you are.

why didn't you list 502, 507 blah blah blah.

I'm not impressed. But happy you are.

#47 | Posted by Washboard

Because 410A is by far the most common refrigerant now in current residential/light commercial HVAC equipment.

Some links:

tinyurl.com/d49a6l

tinyurl.com/d2cpy4

These are scientists with considerable track records who actually measure what is happening. Models are no substitute for reality, unless of course you have an agenda to push.

Ah yes. The R12 freon /Ozone Hoax that everyone fell for about ten years ago. It coincidentally occurred right about the same time that the DuPont patent on R12 ran out. Good thing for DuPont freon was banned, because DuPont was going to lose a lot of money when the patent ran out. Instead, they made a bunch of dough by developing replacements. Remember how the government taxed the heck out of freon before banning it? We all paid for that one. I guess it just wasn't a big enough lesson for some people....

R12 was actually pretty damaging to the ozone layer... vastly more so than 22, which ended up getting lumped in with it in the regulations.

Temp record data.giss.nasa.gov

January through December averages 2001 to 2008.

2001 58.2F
2002 58.4F
2003 58.4F
2004 58.3F
2005 58.6F
2006 58.4F
2007 58.5F
2008 58.2F

HAHAHAHAHAHA

Does this all mean that we can forget about that hole in the ozone layer, because if it does I'm filling my A/C units up with the good black market freon.

Yes, zatoichi, fill away! And while you're enjoying your nice cool home (until the brownshirts come and adjust your thermostat for you, which, by the way, is just around the corner with the proposed climate bill) you can read the book at the following link to educate yourself :)

american_almanac.tripod.com

We all paid for that one. I guess it just wasn't a big enough lesson for some people....

#50 | Posted by YesWeCan at 2009-07-08 09:58 PM

The list is long.


Can you say DDT?

Effective, inexpensive, and safe.

But democrats used it as political fodder and rigged the science to fit their agenda and it was banned in the 70's.

How many Africans died because of its banning?


Democrats are for the little guy, the poor man. Don't ya know?

DDT safe?

Another ignorant individual spouting stupid rhetorical crap.

Hey, go eat fish everyday this month.

Scientists know with virtual certainty that:

There are in fact many things that we know with scientific certainty.. no question

But not one thing you listed falls into that category.. and that's the problem with global warming hysteria. All supposition, and no facts. Evidently, best evidence is that the earth is now cooling.. but don't let that bother anyone...

By the way.. just getting a global temp isn't as easy as one might suppose.. go read up on that.. here's an example.. if I put a pot of boiling water and block of ice in a room.. the average temp of water in the room would be 50 degrees C.. but that actually explains nothing about the reality of temperatures in the room.. Where do you insert the rectal thermometer for the planet? (OK, maybe Detroit)

The sun seems to be coming out of a low sunspot cycle.. and historically, temps have varied with those cycles..

We were just told again last week, that ice caps used to exist on Mars.. they've melted... too bad Al Gore wasn't up there to warn the martians about CO2..

Climate change is NOT science.. and neither are obscure observations by a global warming freak traveling near the north pole.

Just wait until this mini ice age really gets going. People will be cold. Our heating bills will be too expensive. It will be harder to grow crops in cold weather and people will be hungry. The masses will cry to the government: "Do something! Warm the planet up! Give us warmer weather so our crops will grow!" And the government will respond "Are you crazy? We don't have the power to control the climate! We can't make the planet warmer!" LOL Mark my words, it's coming!

We aren't suppose to have muggy weather on the West Coast 'cause we never have any rain and it's a desert climate.


Could it be something to do with global warming?


Save me, Al!



#29 | Posted by CalifChris


CC-- the community changes the local climate with all the watering.

Palm Springs used to have dry heat.

With all the golf courses, they changed the climate and it's now humid. (Much more so than 10 years ago).

Models are no substitute for reality, unless of course you have an agenda to push.

#49 | Posted by MontyPython


And so many of them do have an agenda.

Al Whore the biggest one of all.

"Global warming" is the Darwinism and eugenics of our time (really the phrenology and alchemy, but I am kind). Gee, what ever happend to Freudianism, come to think of it? It was once all the rage and indisputable.

It's gonna be another cold winter.
Thefuckingfarmersalmanac.com

#61 | Posted by Diablo at 2009-07-09 12:57 AM | Reply | Flag: still stupid

"It's gonna be another cold winter."


#62 | Posted by fishpaw at 2009-07-09 08:00 AM

data: data.giss.nasa.gov

Looking at Dec-Jan-Feb averages since 1949:
10 coldest Winters:
Year
1951 56.7
1972 56.7
1956 56.8
1969 56.8
1950 56.8
1965 56.9
1966 56.9
1967 56.9
1976 56.9
1968 57.0

10 Warmest Winters:
Year
1995 58.1
2003 58.3
1999 58.4
2009 58.4
1998 58.5
2006 58.5
2004 58.5
2002 58.5
2005 58.6
2007 58.8

Since '49 Zat?


Why start there?

How about the Middle age warming period?


Why not include that?

How about the last mini ice-age?

Let's take a broader look at this.


PS - PLEASE tell me that you acknowledge the debunking of the 'hockey stick' graph.

"Why 49?"

Because I wanted to.
You're welcome to look at the record since the beginning of the industrial revolution. That is if you can use a spreadsheet to sort numbers. That may be too difficult for you, though, so I'll do it, moron.

We already have the ten warmest winters.

Year DJF
1995 58.1
2003 58.3
1999 58.4
2009 58.4
1998 58.5
2006 58.5
2004 58.5
2002 58.5
2005 58.6
2007 58.8

The record http://data.giss.nasa.gov/ gistemp/tabledata/GLB.Ts.txt

Ten coldest Winters
Year DJF
1893 55.5
1917 56.0
1891 56.0
1918 56.1
1885 56.1
1894 56.2
1911 56.3
1904 56.3
1905 56.3
1887 56.3


"How about the Middle age warming period?"

www.usgcrp.gov

What middle age warming period?

Making shit up again?

"How about the Middle age warming period?"

Perhaps you meant the so-called "Medieval Warming Period" but it's hard to tell.

Measured by multiple, independent techniques:

upload.wikimedia.org

And 2004 (see chart) is only the 7th warmest year on record.

I don't understand the opposition to the possibility of global warming. A few righties cite randoms studies (often with proven flawed data). They cite conspiracies (which must go world wide and span three decades). And a few cite former heating and cooling processes (all much slower than now and which doesn't deny that the current process could be our fault).

I think this issue is fairly straightforward. You burn 16 million pounds of coal a day and use another 3.4 billion gallons of oil a day. What did you expect to happen?

And if Kuma is right about the earth cooling, why is the ocean still heating up, floods occuring in greater degree and force, hurriances likewise, the polar icecaps melting, and world deserts continuing to expand?

65 | Posted by Zatoichi

What are you gonna do, trot out the thoroughly debunked 'hockey-stick graph, again, asshole?

Your intolerance toward any alternative theories is an anehtema to true science.

Seriously.

Why in the fuck are you SO beholden to this theory and, in the process, so nasty toward ANYBODY with the temerity to suggest something different?

Clearly Kuma is not familiar with the concept of rate of change.

#8 | Posted by ness_gadol

Nor is Kuma, et al, seemingly aware that there are 6.5 billion plus people on the planet and despite whatever climatic changes that have occurred throughout the existence of Planet Earth, the changes that are occurring now affect us now and will lead to rather severe problems in the very near future, that is, the near-term human future, as in a few decades, not eons.

"With all the golf courses, they changed the climate and it's now humid."

Oh yeah? Wait until we turn off the tap!

Governor Bill Ritter, Colorado


"PETERMANN GLACIER, Greenland -- I'm writing this blog from Petermann Glacier in northwest Greenland, where a cold katabatic wind is blowing off the ice onto the deck of the Greenpeace ship Arctic Sunrise......"

"GREENPEACE SHIP?????!!!!!!"

How the hell can anything said by this hack be taken seriously?

All this fascination with extremely short term climate charts reminds me of the stock market chartists who never make money because of their myopia. The earth's climate moves in thousand and million years cycles because of many variables most of which are completely random.

In order to be taken at face value, anything written on climate needs to be purged of "green" contamination.

Greens, even greens with doctorates in environmental science, have been RAPING science for decades. They are Green first, and scientist a distant second.

Its as silly as taking the unsupported word of a Marlboro Cigarette company doctor on smoking.

Both may claim to be pure professionals motivated by all the good, but they are not unbiased.

Just another example of the arrogance of man.
The one constant in the earhts climate IS change. But since we are the masters of the universe, we are going to put a stop to that.

Everyone should note that the weather stations which record the temperatures were built out in the country and now are surrounded by urban sprawl concrete (there is one on USC's campus!)....no upward bias in data there! The latest, NASA satellite data shows 8 years of significant cooling, in conjunction with the end of the grand solar maximimum....look for continued cooling.....

I still cannot believe how any rational person could take any report issued from GreenPeace, or any similar group, or anyone affilated with any such organization as an "unbiased report"......

The green rape of science continues unabated, and the green contamination continues to claim that greens are science based and not religious based.

This WILL explode in the face of the green movement like Martin Luther did in the face of the Catholic Church. Heck, its already happening.

As I said, ice melting that has existed for over 100k years is either human action, or you believe that the aliens are shooting the north pole.-Shawn


Shawn, if this is the case will you please tell me how the ice melted so many times before? Long before man ever had cars or factories huge amounts of ice in the Arctic and even in North America melted completely. Ocean levels were much higher than they are today as well. Please tell me, in your infinite wisdom, how this could happen?

All this fascination with extremely short term climate charts reminds me of the stock market chartists who never make money because of their myopia. The earth's climate moves in thousand and million years cycles because of many variables most of which are completely random.

#72 | Posted by fwthom

But the problem is that we need to deal with the here and now, not what happened eons ago, or what will happen eons from now. For example, a rapid increase (over a few years that is) in the mean sea level will kill thousands, displace millions, and ruin countless business and industries. Whether this is caused but increased solar activity, directly attributable to man's activities, or some combination of the two, is irrelevant to the poor slob packing up his house or business on the ocean front and hoping he's gonna find someplace somewhere to live and work inland, along with all the countless other poor slobs who will be doing the same thing.

So while we flop about debating 5WH, events are occurring. Changes are happening. Problems are becoming greater. More people are being born requiring even more resources, and contributing to the problems because of their innate requirements (minimum: food, water, shelter, someplace to poop).

How the hell can anything said by this hack be taken seriously?

#71 | Posted by USAF242

So why don't you toddle your ass on down there and check it out for yourself. Then report back to us. Then we can throw back at you: "How the hell can anything said by this DR hack be taken seriously?"

within the next 15 to 20 years the himalyan glaciers will disappear, around 1/6th of the world's population relies on the runoff from these glaciers for their drinking water.

No problemo.

within the next 15 to 20 years the himalyan glaciers will disappear,

#80 | Posted by truthhurts

Within the next 20 to 30 years, Glacier National Park in Montana may have to be renamed because there will be no more glaciers if the trend continues.

Within the next 20 to 30 years, Glacier National Park in Montana may have to be renamed because there will be no more glaciers if the trend continues.

#81 | Posted by ZOT

What is it? Do all of you expect glaciers to just stay as they are for eternity? That's the thing about you alarmists. As soon as some ice starts melting you start screaming that the Earth is getting hotter and it's all man's fault. Isn't there even the remotest possibility that these occurrences are happening naturally? The way GW alarmists talk there is no way. You leave no room for other possibilities. It's always that the Earth is warming and man is responsible for it. No leeway. That's it.

Global Warming is the biggest piece of steaming BS ever conjured by anyone. Now we have that idiot G8 making a vow to make sure that the earth's temperature only rises "x" degrees over the next few years.


Mother Nature is laughing her ass off. Hopefully she will send something their way to show them how little they are. Al Gore.....just go away you idiot. Thanks for "creating" the internet and all but please...just go away.

1/6th of the world's population relies on the himalayan glaciers for its water supply.

over 1,000,000,000 people will have no water in 20 years.

bury your head in the sand but those 1,000,000,000 will be knocking at your door for a drink of water.

Rule #1 for rational Climate change science

Actual scientifically documentable climate change, even radical change, even change that will kill billions of people..........

.....IS NOT AUTOMATICALLY HUMAN CAUSED.

The earth has had such change REPEATEDLY.
IT
WILL
HAPPEN
AGAIN
NO
MATTER
WHAT
WE
DO.

Pointing at real climate change IS NOT proof of human caused climate change.

Rule #2

If the source of data has any link at all the green religion, assume it is a lie, or a badly twisted truth, until proven otherwise.

bury your head in the sand but those 1,000,000,000 will be knocking at your door for a drink of water.

#84 | Posted by truthhurts

And you actually believe that we have it within our power to stop nature from doing what it is going to do? This is the thing that blows me away. The absolute arrogance from GW fanatics that we can actually save the planet from itself. It is by far the most ludicrous belief I have ever heard.

So, Truthhurts, if we all stopped driving cars and shut down our refineries and got all the cows to stop farting, you're saying that it would reverse the trend of the glacial meltdown. Unbelievable.

CC-- the community changes the local climate with all the watering.

Palm Springs used to have dry heat.

With all the golf courses, they changed the climate and it's now humid. (Much more so than 10 years ago).

#59 | Posted by MURPHY at 2009-07-09 12:06 AM

What the %*#(???

Are you actually saying that humans are effecting the environment and changing the climate??????

No way!

Isn't there even the remotest possibility that these occurrences are happening naturally?

Why yes it is a REMOTE possibly. But, based on the preponderance of evidence it is more likely we are having an effect on our climate.

This is worth repeating:

Scientists know with virtual certainty that:

* Human activities are changing the composition of Earth's atmosphere. Increasing levels of greenhouse gases like carbon dioxide (CO2) in the atmosphere since pre-industrial times are well-documented and understood.
* The atmospheric buildup of CO2 and other greenhouse gases is largely the result of human activities such as the burning of fossil fuels.
* An "unequivocal" warming trend of about 1.0 to 1.7F occurred from 1906-2005. Warming occurred in both the Northern and Southern Hemispheres, and over the oceans (IPCC, 2007).

Do all of you expect glaciers to just stay as they are for eternity? That's the thing about you alarmists. As soon as some ice starts melting you start screaming that the Earth is getting hotter and it's all man's fault. Isn't there even the remotest possibility that these occurrences are happening naturally?

#82 | Posted by everlong

Alarmist? Screaming? No. I simply (re)stated some information I read about the park a few years ago.

Natural, man made, both, whatever... Things are happening, changing, not for the good. It will affect all of us to one degree or antoher.

Point out in my commentary on this thread where I was screaming, alarming, laying blame on man.

Chill.

www.msnbc.msn.com

Fresh water turtles used to live in the Canadian arctic tens of millions of years ago, when the average temperature in the arctic was 57 degrees!

I'm guessing there was no ice at all in the arctic since it was about 20 degrees too warm for that.

But now, the ice is melting, oh no we're all going to die!

How can we possibly say we are all going to die when life thrived 95 million years ago when there was no ice at all in the polar regions?

The earth has had such change REPEATEDLY.
IT
WILL
HAPPEN
AGAIN
NO
MATTER
WHAT
WE
DO.


#85 | Posted by USAF242

Well, golly, y'a think?

4 or so billion years from no, sun goes to red giant, earth all crispy fried.

But in all your former redundant repeatedlies, there weren't 6.5 billion plus people hanging about drinking and eating and screwing and pooping.

Of course, if your okay with large human die offs due to the coming eco disasters, well, all righty then. No prob.

Zot, I misread into your post that you were making a point about how bad things were getting due to GW.


bury your head in the sand but those 1,000,000,000 will be knocking at your door for a drink of water.


#84 | Posted by truthhurts


And you actually believe that we have it within our power to stop nature from doing what it is going to do? This is the thing that blows me away. The absolute arrogance from GW fanatics that we can actually save the planet from itself. It is by far the most ludicrous belief I have ever heard.


So, Truthhurts, if we all stopped driving cars and shut down our refineries and got all the cows to stop farting, you're saying that it would reverse the trend of the glacial meltdown. Unbelievable.

#86 | Posted by everlong


well, I honestly don't know. Alot of smart people seem to think we are impacting. I do know that the human race can have massive effects on the planet. 500 years ago Europe and America were covered with old growth forests, mostly all gone. So yes I think we can impact the planet. So if we can impact the planet, we can reverse those trends? Perhaps, we seem to have done a bang up job on litter over the past 30 or so years, but by being conscious of it.

The ramifications of doing nothing are so serious that I think people should err on the side of doing something.

And you actually believe that we have it within our power to stop nature from doing what it is going to do? This is the thing that blows me away.


what fascinates me is that you think that mankind has no significant impact on the planet. that boggles my mind. in relatively small instances we have caused rivers to burst into flame, we have had petroleum spills that have killed thousands of animals in an instant, we have industries that have laid waste to hundreds of acres of land, we have pollutted billions of gallons of drinking water, etc.

In many of those instances we helped mother nature by reducing or eliminating the contaminants/pollutants entering nature or removing/treating the contaminants/pollutants that are present in the environment, thus making things safer and healthier for all of us.

Anyone who believes we cannot impact nature either for the better or for the detriment is just plain ignorant..

Why are they called conservatives when all they do is take everything they can from the environment, use it all up, and not try to replace it.
Isn't erring on the side of caution being conservative? Isn't exploitation reckless and wrong? Why are the righties so reckless and wrong when it comes to the environment?


LM

If you concede that actual major and harmful climate change might be NATURAL, and not human caused,.......


......then what makes you think ruining the lives of billions of people with a MASSIVE "SPENDING" of resources on carbon emissions will help chnage the natural change?


In the past many social activists often complained about military spending, claiming that the money would be better spent feeding and educating children.

At least with the military spending, folks strong on defence could point out correctly that wars and military threats are provably real, and being unprepared costly.........

......but the climate alarmist want to spend even more resources (thus not feeding or educating even more children), and can point at NOTHING except a weak hypothesis.

In short, unless you have provable HUMAN CAUSED climate change (and NOT just "provable climate change"), then the correct cource of action is to IGNORE carbon emissions (at least for climate change purposes), and NOT to do them "just in case".

USA,
The same lack of logic is used in regards to second hand smoke and cancer: if you have people who smoke who do not develop lung cancer and people who never smoke who do, then you really cannot prove a "cause and effect" relationship, but it is politically wrong to say that so it never gets said and the myths live on.

Isn't erring on the side of caution being conservative?

It should be. Good question.


Why are the righties so reckless and wrong when it comes to the environment?

Some probably are "reckless" but I wouldn't apply that word to someone who applies scrutiny to the information coming from all sides.


Damn scientists and their crazy knowledge.

I never said that we had no impact on the environment, Truthhurts. Of course we have some effect. But then, we affect the environment, the climate is a different story. Everything you described was an impact that we have had on our environment. Now, if you want to make the leap and say that our environment goes hand in hand with our climate that's your right. Certainly it has some effect, but that's what the scientists are debating over now.

The Earth has had much more CO2 in its atmosphere before we came along. The Earth has been much hotter and colder as well. Maybe humans do have an effect on our climate but I just don't believe it's a significant one. And I damn sure don't believe that we can reverse whatever course nature is on right now.

Obviously we should all strive to be cleaner and better stewards of our planet, but most GW advocates go way too far with what they say should be done. This whole thing could turn out to be nothing and we could enter another ice age and we will have wasted billions and billions of dollars and raised taxes on people where we shouldn't have.

This planet has gone thru much worse troubles than humans and it has come out of it just fine.

"Some probably are "reckless" but I wouldn't apply that word to someone who applies scrutiny to the information coming from all sides."


Scrutiny is a greathing unless that scrutiny leads to nothing but inaction.......

LM

Food for thought...all 6.5 billion people would fit in Australia giving each person 1/4 acre of land.

Maybe humans do have an effect on our climate but I just don't believe it's a significant one.
At what point do our activities begin to have a significant impact?

Atmospheric CO2 concentration has already doubled from burning fossil fuels. You don't believe that's significant. Well then, does it ever become significant?

How about CO2 in the oceans. At what point do increasingly acidic oceans, unable to sustain as much life as the oceans of today, become "significant?"

Once we get to the point where we are having a "significant" impact on the environment, how might we mitigate that impact?

Why are the righties so reckless and wrong when it comes to the environment?
Certainly not the exclusive domain of "righties," but the all-too-obvious reason is: Because it pays well.

Certainly not the exclusive domain of "righties," but the all-too-obvious reason is: Because it pays well.

are you still going to throw that out when we start seeing billionaries crop up from green technologies?

YAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWN. You libbies can stop this by unplugging your computers and ceasing to post on the Retort. I'll wait.

are you still going to throw that out when we start seeing billionaries crop up from green technologies?

Dunno Eberly, I guess that depends on whether some clever entrepreneur can come up with a "green" way to strip-mine, lop the top off a mountain, or overfish the oceans.

Soylent green, perhaps...

I error on the side of caution.

That means treating the Human Caused Global Climate Change hypothesis as unproven (which as a Hypothesis, it is, by definition, completely unproven) and not taking provably extreme high cost measures that will likely deliver nothing except less money for medicine for the poor and less food for the starving.

Until the Human Caused Global Climate Change hypothesis moves all the way to "repeatable test fact", it would be immoral to act as if it is fact and condemn millions of already poor people to an even lower standard of living and also sharply reducing the ability of the population of planet earth to create new wealth.

Cap and Trade, Kyoto and other such nonsense will produce no benefit, and absorb TRILLIONS of dollars in wealth, much of which WILL come directly out of money that would have purchased food and medicine for the poor.

that will likely deliver nothing except less money for medicine for the poor and less food for the starving.
Bitch please. It's fine if you want to deny anthropogenic climate change, but don't pretend you're Albert fucking Schweitzer for doing so.

Until the Human Caused Global Climate Change hypothesis moves all the way to "repeatable test fact"
Great plan. Seeing as we have several earths upon which to experiment, let's do it your way.

Food for thought...all 6.5 billion people would fit in Australia giving each person 1/4 acre of land.

#102 | POSTED BY RAYMEE AT 2009-07-09 04:09 PM | REPLY | FLAG:
Someone's never been to Australia

The vast majority of Australia can't support any kind of agriculture, there's no water, and it's incredibly inhospitable. At least 80% live within 30 miles of the coast. Please do move there and live in Alice Springs or Coober Pedy if you want a life lesson.

Atmospheric CO2 concentration has already doubled from burning fossil fuels. You don't believe that's significant. Well then, does it ever become significant?

How about CO2 in the oceans. At what point do increasingly acidic oceans, unable to sustain as much life as the oceans of today, become "significant?"

Once we get to the point where we are having a "significant" impact on the environment, how might we mitigate that impact?

Why are the righties so reckless and wrong when it comes to the environment?
Certainly not the exclusive domain of "righties," but the all-too-obvious reason is: Because it pays well.

#103 | Posted by snoofy

I'm not saying that we shouldn't do things to curb our output of CO2, just not at such costs that it puts people out of business. I believe that businesses should not be allowed to pollute our waterways and should be heavily fined for doing so. There is plenty that can be done to curb output of CO2 without going to the extremes that GW advocates are calling for. Besides, it's not like CO2 is all bad. It happens to feed the trees and vegetation that allow us to breath. And water is a worse heat conductor than CO2 is. Should we start draining all the lakes and rivers so it doesn't make it to the atmosphere?

Besides, there may not be a magic point for us to reach that causes calamity. The Earth has an incredible way of doing away with things it doesn't want and uses the things it does. GW alarmists want us to basically shut down as a country, while the big wig environmentalists cruise around in their private jets. If they really thought that the burning of fossil fuel was that much of a danger to the atmosphere would they be taking those private flights? They know it isn't as harmful as some say it is. Global warming is the worlds biggest money making scam of today.

Wednesday, July 08, 2009

Explorer: Arctic Ice 'Disintegrating Before My Eyes'


well its summer you stupid shit!

"That means treating the Human Caused Global Climate Change hypothesis as unproven (which as a Hypothesis, it is, by definition, completely unproven) and not taking provably extreme high cost measures that will likely deliver nothing except less money for medicine for the poor and less food for the starving."

I thought you had to be smart to be in air force, guess not. A hypothesis does mean unproven, but it also means that enough FACTS are in to formulate a hypothesis based on research.
Secondly, what is provably expensive measures?
You mean allowing OPEC and Chavez to control our prices and amount of oil is't expensive. You mean using drilling technologies(drill baby drill) that wil not get enough oil to US and not in a quick enough time frame to impact/influence OPEC's control over the market. Using more local natural gas to fuel cars keeps money here in US, as do alternative fuels. This allows that money to be spent on food and medicine. Paying some arabic dude or chavez a ridiculous price for oil does not. Additionally the removal of more plastics and chemicals from the environment is better for crop growth, thus allowing for more bountiful harvests, more food for those poor your so concerned about. I can go on, but I think you need to be spoon fed......

LM

Cooling Down
Some aerosols, such as sulfates, reflect solar radiation and have a cooling effect on climate, while others, such as black carbon, have a warming effect because they absorb solar radiation. The preponderance of reflective aerosols causes the net effect to be one of cooling, but the amount of cooling is uncertain, owing to a large difference in estimates of the effect of aerosols in global aerosol models compared with estimates based on observations. Myhre (p. 187, published online 18 June; see the Perspective by Quaas) uses a combination of observational data and modeling to reconcile the two approaches, drawing particular attention to relative increases in the aerosol fraction of black carbon. Taken together, the results suggest a best estimate of the cooling effect of aerosols that is 60% of previous reports.


ABSTRACT

Science 10 July 2009:
Vol. 325. no. 5937, pp. 187 - 190
DOI: 10.1126/science.1174461

Reports
Consistency Between Satellite-Derived and Modeled Estimates of the Direct Aerosol Effect
Gunnar Myhre

In the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change Fourth Assessment Report, the direct aerosol effect is reported to have a radiative forcing estimate of 0.5 Watt per square meter (W m2), offsetting the warming from CO2 by almost one-third. The uncertainty, however, ranges from 0.9 to 0.1 W m2, which is largely due to differences between estimates from global aerosol models and observation-based estimates, with the latter tending to have stronger (more negative) radiative forcing. This study demonstrates consistency between a global aerosol model and adjustment to an observation-based method, producing a global and annual mean radiative forcing that is weaker than 0.5 W m2, with a best estimate of 0.3 W m2. The physical explanation for the earlier discrepancy is that the relative increase in anthropogenic black carbon (absorbing aerosols) is much larger than the overall increase in the anthropogenic abundance of aerosols.

www.sciencemag.org

Science 10 July 2009:
Vol. 325. no. 5937, pp. 153 - 154
DOI: 10.1126/science.1176991

Perspectives
Atmosphere: Smoke and Climate Change
Johannes Quaas

Anthropogenic pollution forms small liquid or solid particles in the atmosphere. These aerosols emitted directly, for example, as soot particles from smoke (see the figure), or formed from pollution gases, such as sulfate particles are of nanometer to micrometer size. Some particles absorb sunlight, contributing to climate warming; others reflect sunlight, leading to a relative cooling. The global mean effect of anthropogenic aerosols is a cooling, but the relative contributions of the different types of aerosols determine the magnitude of this cooling. On page 187 of this issue, Myhre (1) offers new insights into these aerosol effects on climate by showing that the relative increase in light absorption by anthropogenic smoke since pre-industrial times was larger than the increase in light scattering by other anthropogenic aerosols. His results substantially advance the level of scientific understanding of how aerosols affect climate.

Max Planck Institute for Meteorology, Bundesstr. 53, D-20146 Hamburg, Germany.

E-mail: johannes.quaas@zmaw.de

www.sciencemag.org

Everlong or whoever wants to field this one:

GW alarmists want us to basically shut down as a country

I haven't seen or heard anyone advocate this, outside of maybe Ted Kaczynski (who wanted to give the middle of the country back to the Injuns if memory serves.)

In point of fact the only proposals I am aware of are Kyoto, which would cap emissions at 1990 levels minus 5%, and "cap n trade" which doesn't seem to put a ceiling on emissions -- provided you can trade for someone's non-polluting allowance, the sky's the limit.

So, someone tell me, who (sane) is advocating that we end industry? This sounds like exactly the sort of fear-mongering the deniers accuse the alarmists of engaging in. (Not that that's at all surprising.)

Finally, if rolling back to 1990 levels minus five percent would deal a mortal blow to industrialized society, we need to take a look at the sustainability of such a society. If ever-accelerating consumption of natural resources is required for our civilization to continue, we're in for a rude awakening some day.

"basically shut down as a country"

That is the most pathetically stupid thing I've read in a long, long time.

Become spacefaring or die.

*speed-shift*

Earl Campbell is the best I ever saw; Last time I saw Earl I was sitting by him at Dirty's a decade or so ago.

media.decider.com

Here ...
www.about-austintx.com

I recommend the OT Special and tater tots.

You missed the point Yav, try again.

You missed the point Yav, try again.

No, I didn't. You missed mine. Mine was snarky, but it all holds true whether you choose Australia or the world. Distribution, location, redefining land rights, ownership, relocation isn't a more viable solution than what it being proposed to minimize GW's impact.

Your idea isn't thought out in the micro nor macro sense.

You missed the point yet again, one more shot at it and then I'll make it easy for you.

Zatoichi! Dirty's Cumback Burgers is still around?? I miss that place.
Earl used to go to El Carnivore before it closed years ago. That place was a trip.

but unless you believe that vermin and his ilk are causing it with brain farts or some-such, then it's not too hard to guess.

#5 | Posted by Shawn at 2009-07-08 07:07 PM | Reply

I kicked your ass and you are still whining about it. What a stupid pussy

Ancient Aztec priests made a habit of cutting the living hearts from tens of thousands of human sacrifices every year.

They did this because they believed that the Sun needed the sacrifices in order to rise each morning.

Climate Change alarmism at its finiest, with about the same amount of proof.

(I'll grant Human Caused Global Climate Change status as a WEAK hypothesis, but as far as 'proof' goes, it is LITERIALLY about the same).

The "just in case" argument simply does not cut it now anymore than it did then. The Aztecs lived on the same "we only have one earth" as we do. Please get the hypothesis at LEAST to "strong thoery" before we dump TRILLIONS of dollars of wealth on it for ZERO return other than reduced emission of carbon (not a polutant).

If we have to dump trillons of dollars, lets spend on something nice, maybe a quarter trillion each to space program, food relief, eduction, and medical charity.

#123 | Posted by USAF242 at 2009-07-10 07:27 AM | Reply | Flag: Most entertaining case of cognitive dissonance so far.

Happy extinction, stupid.

------------------
Nature Reports Climate Change
Published online: 16 October 2008 | Corrected online: 21 November 2008 | doi:10.1038/climate.2008.111

Foreboding forecast

Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciiences USA 105, 1525815262 (2008)

Even the most stringent of published climate mitigation measures may not avert dangerous climate change, shows a new analysis. An increase in global average surface temperature of 2 C above pre-industrial values is generally considered to be the level of warming that could have serious impacts and, as such, is to be avoided.

www.nature.com

Sciences

Record: data.giss.nasa.gov

We're at 1.29 C so far and it's too late to stop it.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

All revelations from the Great Gore aside, (where's he been hiding, anyway?)

When there are continents over poles, the dynamic is for ice, because the poles don't get enough sun to melt the ice back every summer, and the prospect overall is for ice growth. Within the system, there are interludes of relative warmth, but the overall prospect until Antarctica moves significantly north is for ice....

CO2 rise does not proceed warming periods, but rather, follows them....comes from lots of plants dying off...man-made CO2,even at todays level, is dwarfed by naturally-occurring co2....

H20 is a 15 times more powerful warming agent....

the globe has significantly cooled for 8 straight years, and its looking like a 9th.....

The Arctic comprises less than 10 percent of the ice on the planet....even if it were melting away, which is, at most, debatable, it wouldn't matter....

jonryker

Link to your madness, and people won't laugh at your stupid ass.

oops

Too late.

"Ancient Aztec priests"

Actually it was the Maya.
You fail Mezoamerican history, too.

In response to the "Just in case" support for action on the Human Caused Global Climate Change Hypothesis:

The "Just is case" argument is that "if true" the consequences for inaction are extreme.

The argument against this is that there is literially no proof what-so-ever, while the cost would be in the trillions.

If we want to spend trillions to save the earth from something that has a tiny chance of being catastrophy, how about spending those trillions on the space program???

Unlike Human Caused Glabal Climate Change, we know for a 100% certain fact that the Earth has suffered a number of major impacts from space, and WILL suffer them again in the future.

While one might argue (correctly) that any such trillons of dollars should be spread out over a variety of projects that promote human welfare, at least with the space program, we actually will get something the trillons, unlike if we were to spend it on Human Caused Global Climate Change.

If we spend on the Human Caused Global Climate Change, we flush our wealth down the toilet in return for NOTHING.

If we spend on the Space Program, it might not be the best place for the money, but at least we'll own a series of space stations, launch vehicles, and probably even some space based industry. Better still, rather than spending trillons to hire people to PREVENT other people from making things, we'd be spending trillons to make wealth, and creating a large number of high tech jobs.

Bob,

www.scienceandpublicpolicy.org

www.scotese.edu or org

Then again, you could simply have completed an 8th-grade earth science class....

Then again, you could simply have completed an 8th-grade earth science class....

Citing propaganda from organizations that rely on Monckton doesn't help your credibility. In fact, it makes your "8th-grade" comment quite humorous. I do have to hand it to SPPI, they've wiped any reference of who funds them off their records. You guys are wising up!

I posted a response to this claim yesterday towards the end of the Gore/Hitler thread, but the debate seems to be continuing here so I'll repost:

Hey, dumbfuck, the earth has cooled in the last 10 years.

You dispute this?

#9 | Posted by kuma at 2009-07-08 07:17 PM |

Your premise that the earth has been cooling over the last 10 years is false. If you could post a source for this claim it would be helpful.

To see that temperature has in fact been rising over the last ten years, you can look at the data from 2 surface (NASA, UKMET) and satelite (UAH, RSS) temperature records here:

sciencepolicy.colorado.edu

(Look at the section called Verification of IPCC Temperature Forecasts 1990, 1995, 2001, and 2007)


It's very clear that starting from 1999 the trend in all cases is rising temperature. To improve your argument, you could have said "the last 11 years" since you then get the benefit of the 1998 el-nino event. Even so, if you take that into account, the trend is still one of warming.

Having said all that, 10 years is not really long enough to establish a meaningful trend, but what trend there is shows warming.

Note that the person doing this analysis is Roger Piekle, who is sometimes viewed as a global warming skeptic, and he is fairly critical of the IPCC here. So I'm certainly not giving you analysis from any kind of alarmist or person with a pro-global warming agenda.

#9 | Posted by kuma at 2009-07-08 07:17

Kuma fail.
Kuma be extinct soon.

So, someone tell me, who (sane) is advocating that we end industry? This sounds like exactly the sort of fear-mongering the deniers accuse the alarmists of engaging in. (Not that that's at all surprising.)

Finally, if rolling back to 1990 levels minus five percent would deal a mortal blow to industrialized society, we need to take a look at the sustainability of such a society. If ever-accelerating consumption of natural resources is required for our civilization to continue, we're in for a rude awakening some day.

#115 | Posted by snoofy


It was a figure of speech that I made. I know no one is advocating shutting the country down but they are for severe changes that will cost tons of money. That would be okay if we knew for certain that it was necessary. With things like cap and trade it is just the beginning of taxing the American public in the name of global warming. I just happen to believe that we should be 100% certain that it is us causing the rise in heat, which isn't a rise anymore since it is now cooling, before making us pay out more of our income.

"basically shut down as a country"

That is the most pathetically stupid thing I've read in a long, long time.

Become spacefaring or die.

*speed-shift*

Earl Campbell is the best I ever saw; Last time I saw Earl I was sitting by him at Dirty's a decade or so ago.

media.decider.com

Here ...
www.about-austintx.com

#116 | Posted by Zatoichi

Jesus, you didn't even think for a second that I might be exaggerating? See above for explanation.

"I know no one is advocating shutting the country down but they are for severe changes that will cost tons of money. That would be okay if we knew for certain that it was necessary. With things like cap and trade it is just the beginning of taxing the American public in the name of global warming. I just happen to believe that we should be 100% certain that it is us causing the rise in heat, which isn't a rise anymore since it is now cooling, before making us pay out more of our income."


Ha...take a look at THIS:

"I am encouraged that Administrator Jackson agrees that unilateral action by the U.S. will be all cost for no climate gain," Sen. Inhofe said. "With China and India recently issuing statements of defiant opposition to mandatory emissions controls, acting alone through the job-killing Waxman-Markey bill would impose severe economic burdens on American consumers, businesses, and families, all without any impact on climate."

epw.senate.gov

"Kuma fail.
Kuma be extinct soon."

Poor Kuma...he's been condemned to death by Zat's scientific, peer-reviewed pool.

A great find and point, Jestgettinalong. It's what I've been saying since yesterday.

Yav,

Who, then, funds Monckton? What's that got to do with basic 8th grade earth science?

Enron was the first to lobby for carbon caps....hmmmm. Nazis as well were major environmentalists.....Now, it's T-Boone Pickens....hmmmm, a little economic motivation there?

Nevertheless, all funding aside, do you dispute the physics of what makes for ice ages? Do you dispute the patently evident lack of CO2 forcing? Do you dispute that arctic ice pack is a very small percentage of ice on Earth?

No, I suppose not. That would entail understanding and fair-minded debate...a little beyond what you're willing to do....just settle for ignorant labeling.....Go to SPPI and read the papers, many of which are not from Monckton, see if you can understand them, and then complain....

Do you dispute that by far the most diverse, healthy, and productive biomes on earth are near the equator, where it's hot and moist, sort of like your nightmare senario for the mythical global warming?

The Great Gore be praised!

HE PLAYED ON OUR FEARS!!!!!!!

Great Gore Be Praised....

Anyone who can't see that fear is behind the global warming movement is either blind or severely naive. Didn't we just recently hear several democrats admitting to using a crisis to get things accomplished. This is the scam of the century.

Again, 'global warming' is completely phony, it is made up fantasy that only the most idiotic, brainwashed or paid off fool advocates.

If you believe in Gorehogs and Prince Charles's version of global warming, you are a total moron.


97 percent of climatologists are anti-Stumpy.

For all of you that are so sure that Global Warming is man made, then answer these questions...

Q. Why did a glacier on Mars significantly melt and shrink over the past decade?

You might guess it was because of the emmissions created by the Mars Rover but you would be wrong.

A. It was because of an active cycle on the Sun, the same reason Earth was experiencing the warming trend and has now begun to cool.

Q. If CO2 is the culprit (even though we know all plants need CO2 to suvive)then why was Earth in an extreme ice age when CO2 levels were at their highest levels?

A. Even Gore doesn't have an answer to this one. Of course he refuses to debate anyone on the subject because he doesnt have answers to a lot of questions.

That is a total fabrication and lie Corkhole.

There is a system of reward and punishment set up by Gorehog and his fellow scammers. One which rewards the climatologists who fabricate and misread data that leads to helping the global warming cult, and one which punishes the climatologist that know this is a laughable and dangerous scheme.

Corky, your statement, (which you have made several times) shows you have zero idea of what 'global warming is, which of the 100 different variants you are talking about, and that you lack even the most superficial understanding of the concepts involved or the players manipulating the data. .

www.petitionproject.com

There are a lot of US PhD's not so certain about Global Warming/Climate Change being caused by man. Don't their opinions count?


I don't know, Stumpy, or should I call you "Stumphole"?

I'd say that it is you that is concerned about political ideaology and that the scientific researchers know what they are talking about.


97% of climatologists say global warming is occurring and caused by humans
mongabay.com January 22, 2009


A new poll among 3,146 earth scientists found that 90 percent believe global warming is real, while 82 percent agree that human activity been a significant factor in changing mean global temperatures.

The survey, conducted among researchers listed in the American Geological Institute's Directory of Geoscience Departments*, "found that climatologists who are active in research showed the strongest consensus on the causes of global warming, with 97 percent agreeing humans play a role". The biggest doubters were petroleum geologists (47 percent) and meteorologists (64 percent). A recent poll suggests that 58 percent of Americans believe that human activity contributes to climate change.

"The petroleum geologist response is not too surprising, but the meteorologists' is very interesting," said Peter Doran, University of Illinois at Chicago associate professor of earth and environmental sciences who conducted the survey late last year with former graduate student Maggie Kendall Zimmerman. "Most members of the public think meteorologists know climate, but most of them actually study very short-term phenomenon."

Doran said wide support among climatologists does not come as a surprise.

"They're the ones who study and publish on climate science. So I guess the take-home message is, the more you know about the field of climate science, the more you're likely to believe in global warming and humankind's contribution to it."

Writing in the publication Eos, Transactions, American Geophysical Union, Doran and Zimmerman conclude, "the debate on the authenticity of global warming and the role played by human activity is largely nonexistent among those who understand the nuances and scientific basis of long-term climate processes."

The remaining challenge, they write, "is how to effectively communicate this to policy makers and to a public that continues to mistakenly perceive debate among scientists."

*The authors contacted 10,200 scientists listed in the 2007 edition of the American Geological Institute's Directory of Geoscience Departments and received 3,146 responses to their two questions: "have mean global temperatures risen compared to pre-1800s levels?" and "Has human activity been a significant factor in changing mean global temperatures?"

news.mongabay.com

"the debate on the authenticity of global warming and the role played by human activity is largely nonexistent among those who understand the nuances and scientific basis of long-term climate processes."


Just thought I'd repeat that fer ya.

"www.petitionproject.com"

Not that tired old forgery again!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Some random hyperbolic lie is the foundation for your belief in the global warming cult?

How sad for you.

Gorehog warming is a cult, a relgion that is propogated by paid off manipulators, it is a total sham and scheme cooked up by fools and followed by sychophants.

Do yourself a favor and read some real research on this issue, instead of only injesting cult approved dogma.


"The authors contacted 10,200 scientists listed in the 2007 edition of the American Geological Institute's Directory of Geoscience Departments and received 3,146 responses to their two questions: "have mean global temperatures risen compared to pre-1800s levels?" and "Has human activity been a significant factor in changing mean global temperatures?"

Ah, the American Geological Cult, eh?

Pick up your MS in Idiocy at the back gate. Next.

"Do yourself a favor and read some real research on this issue"

Here you go Rex ... take your own advice.

From the American Institute of Physics:

Bibliography by year
aip.org

From the National Academy of Sciences:
Fifteen recent publications from the National Academies about the science and policy implications of global warming and climate change.
www.nap.edu

The Union of Concerned Scientists
Human Fingerprints
www.ucsusa.org


Zat,

Don't you know that those scientists are all, "paid cultists"?

lmfao!!

I've already posted the real research which completely destroys this scam at least ten times.

You are acting like Mooney cultists, lacking the desire or capacity to question whatever junk science is put in front of them.

Global warming is a total sham and scheme and as each 'dire' global warming projection is proven to be a a falsity and lie, the global warmers shift the bar in another direction.

The tooth fairy has more basis in fact then this ponzi scheme.

"The tooth fairy has more basis in fact then this ponzi scheme."

You need to recheck the definition of ponzi scheme.


What "real" research did you post, Stumpy?

Let's see it again. I don't suppose it is sourced in any oil industry research, eh?


No Dimforth, 'ponzi scheme' describes this Gorehog fabricated, money making scam, exactly.

Do you ever get tired of being a dumbass?

Oil industry?

What a laughable strawman.

The Gorehog industry is the one buying researchers, faking data, and punishing dissenters.

Are you that uniformed and ignorant?

Do you have any idea what is going on at all?

Just out, from Newsmax.....

In this special edition, you'll find out if all the talk about global warming points to a legitimate threat or if it's a lot of hot air.

Newsmax magazine's special report "Al Gore Spins Global Warming" debunks many widely promulgated notions about the global warming threat and finds that truth is the first casualty in Gore's apocalyptic film.

The compelling report by Lowell Ponte author of the best-selling book about changing climate, "The Cooling" and Marc Morano details the propaganda blitz about global warming and the facts it obscures.

This exclusive Newsmax report explores:

The real reason the media is hyping the dangers of global warming.
Al Gore's real agenda: 2008.
The Aral Sea and Mt. Kilimanjaro issues two glaring "convenient lies" in Al Gore's film.
The myth of a man-caused sea level rise: why Florida and California will remain dry.
How modern temperature-measuring techniques could be giving a "false positive" to global warming.
Why computer models predicting climate change are necessarily flawed.
The former Democratic senator who brazenly says he pushes the global warming theory "even if it's wrong."
What implementation of the Kyoto Protocol would really cost the U.S.
The optimistic global temperature rise projection that Gore ignored.
How a leading doomsayer admits exaggerating the global warming threat.
The increased tornado activity in the U.S. is it really linked to global warming?
An expert's four common-sense "alternative cures" for global warming.
Why a prominent MIT professor says global warming is an out-and-out fraud.
Time magazine and Newsweek's dire warnings in 1974 of another ice age!
How the global warming scare is cool in Hollywood.
What a leading U.S. expert told the Senate about the "science fiction" of a disappearing Arctic.
Why we could actually be heading for a cooler, and not warmer, period.
Vice President Gore's "reign of terror" against global warming skeptics.
Why America's top hurricane expert doubts the hurricane-warming connection.
How a clean energy source which already exists could eliminate the threat of global warming.
And the bottom line for you: How global warming policies will mean more government, higher energy prices, and more costs and taxes to you!
And much, much more.
This blockbuster edition of Newsmax magazine addresses the key questions surrounding the controversy: Is global warming caused by human activity and is it really happening at all?

Or, as Sen. James Inhofe has said, is global warming "the greatest single hoax ever perpetrated on the American people"?

Check it out Go Here Now!

The Aral Sea and Mt. Kilimanjaro issues two glaring "convenient lies" in Al Gore's film.

But if there was a lie in the middle then why should we believe the rest of it?

right Danforth??

-The Gorehog industry is the one buying researchers, faking data, and punishing dissenters.


Are you that uniformed and ignorant?


The DR Classic Self-Retorter


Ignoring truly independent scientific research in lieu of politically motivated hackery is just another lovable thing about you, Stumpy.

"Do yourself a favor and read some real research on this issue, instead of only injesting cult approved dogma."

Wow, Corky kicked your ass on this, she posted real research links to real scientist, you posted, well nothing!!

Lame brained attacks by people who's best answer to gobal warming is, "it's not that hot where I am at" aren't going anywhere. In fact the majority of rebuttals on here is pathetic. I do give props to Yeswecan for posting his link on his premise, even if it is a tiny fraction of the science community, it deserves attention.

LM

A. It was because of an active cycle on the Sun, the same reason Earth was experiencing the warming trend and has now begun to cool.

#145 | Posted by ChiTownGuy at 2009-07-10 12:43 PM | Reply | Flag


The sun is at the coolest it has been in a century. Why don't you morons ever link to your bullshit?

Sun at its Coolest in a Century.

Are you really so stupid as to think that these scientists didn't know the sun was hot? Really. Tell me you aren't that stupid.

Do you think you know more than scientists that have been studying Global Temperatures for years? You don't.

You talk about the history of temps on the planet---where do you think you got that info from you idiot---it is from the SAME SCIENTISTS that are telling us about Global Warming. They know all about the past history of climate change. You in your arrogance think you know more than them because you know the sun is hot.

So, Bob, if they know all about the Earth's past concerning temperature then why don't the scientists who advocate GW ever work that into their opinions? I have never heard a GW scientist say that the planet has gone thru heating stages before. They only talk about this warming period and CO2. It is never in any of the papers they put out. They don't even consider it a possibility that what is occurring is completely natural.

Could this be because they have an agenda? It sure sounds like it. People with agendas never point out things that could get in the way of their reasoning. One of these days, several years down the road, the Earth will be in a cooling climate and all of you believers just won't know what to do with yourselves. What are you gonna do, Bob, when the oceans don't rise and Antarctica is still there and the polar bears are still around?

"What are you gonna do, Bob, when the oceans don't rise and Antarctica is still there and the polar bears are still around?"

He's gonna go back to manufacturing assault car antennae in his factory on the moon.

Bob,

If you look at the formula the IPCC uses for projecting global temperatures, there is NO FACTOR for change in sun intensity. It is assumed to be constant.....that is a fact. Of course, I wouldn't have expected you to have actually looked at the formula and analyzed it....a little too much work....Rest assured, though. I have.

Of course, The Great Gore would consider actual analysis of The Sacred Formula to be heretical, but I haven't been able to channel him in well over a year....

Incidentally, have you gone and checked out those websites I left you?

Corky,

Which independent research would that be? The IPCC guys, who are out of a job if there is no global warming? T. Boone Pickens, who is out of billions if people don't panic and spend uncountable billions on his wind farms? The Great Gore, who won't sell any carbon caps through his company if people aren't compelled by jack-booted environazi thugs? "HE PLAYED ON OUR FEARS!"....Indeed, but only if we didn't have 8th-grade Earth Science.....

The Great Gore Be Praised!

-Which independent research would that be?

www.drudge.com

www.drudge.com

Speaking of 8th grade.....

#165 | Posted by everlong at 2009-07-10 03:17 PM |

I have never heard a GW scientist say that the planet has gone thru heating stages before. They only talk about this warming period and CO2. It is never in any of the papers they put out.

Really? How do you know? How many scientific papers on global warming have you read? Do you have any idea how many of such papers come out every year?

Even Al Gore, the person most decried by those who don't believe in global warming (who by the way is not a scientist, and shouldn't be anyone's go-to guy on this issue), showed a graph of the historical temperature record in An Inconvenient Truth. This graph explicitly showed that the planet has gone through heating cycles in the past.

They don't even consider it a possibility that what is occurring is completely natural.

Of course they do. If they didn't they wouldn't be able to have any confidence in their assertion that the current warming trend is anthropogenic.

The fact is, the usual drivers of climate, solar variability, Milankovitch cycles, and volcanic eruptions can't be held responsible for the current warming trend.

The solar activity does not correlate with the increase in temperature over the last 35 years.

Sources: N. Scafetta et al., Geophys. Res. Let, Vol. 33, L17718, 2006

S. K. Solanki et al., Nature, Vol. 431, 1084, 2004

In the current Milankovitch cycle (the 100,000 year cycle that drives climate between ice ages and interglacials) we should be gradually going towards an ice age, not warming.

Volcanic eruptions cause cooling, so obviously that's not the culprit.

Finally, no one so far has been able to create a model for climate able to accurately hindcast the temperature changes over the last hundred years that doesn't take into account human influences.

See for example www.grida.no

Could this be because they have an agenda? It sure sounds like it.

Who does? The hundreds (if not thousands) of climatologists in the world that believe in global warming?

If you look at the formula the IPCC uses for projecting global temperatures, there is NO FACTOR for change in sun intensity. It is assumed to be constant.....that is a fact. Of course, I wouldn't have expected you to have actually looked at the formula and analyzed it....a little too much work....Rest assured, though. I have.

ipcc-wg1.ucar.edu

Technical summary, mostly starting with page 30.

You are everything I expect from a denier.

Yav,

So, where's the factor? What about the science? What about any of the issues I brought up? Do you know how many scientists signed the technical summary? I do....I'll give you a hint...it isn't thousands....it's less than 10....Keep reading. You might learn something....

Gore is Great

Jonryker,

Could you please link to the formula you analyzed?

Volcanic eruptions cause cooling, so obviously that's not the culprit.-Upconvrsion

Volcano eruptions put more CO2 into the atmosphere than all of our cars combined. They may cause cooling in some fashion but if we are to believe the GW advocates then the CO2 output alone would negate that cooling.

And maybe I should have stated it better. Global warming scientists do not suggest that the recent warming could be just like all of the other warming the Earth has endured. They just say that because we put extra CO2 into the atmosphere that it is our fault for any warming. You do realize that all they have are theories, right? They have no idea for the recent warming, it's all hypothesis. Yet they claim it as fact.

You people who think that we can save the planet from whatever it may ailing from do amaze me. What absolute arrogance you have. So, let's make new legislation that reduces CO2 output in America and tax carbon output and see what kind of dent is made in straightening out the atmosphere. Never mind that countries like China will continue with business as usual, but at least our consciences will be clear. Our wallets may be lighter but we will certainly feel better about ourselves.

And never mind the fact that every pro GW study that has been done has been rebutted and shown to have flaws. Of course the ones who shun these studies are ridiculed, fired, and made out to be lunatics. If you don't buy into man made GW you are an outcast. You just aren't allowed to refute the divine findings of GW advocates. Time will tell that you are on the wrong side.

Could you please link to the formula you analyzed?

That simple question is so elegant in what it accomplishes.

Well done.

Upconversion,

I don't have a link. It's on the IPCC website, or at least it used to be. Of course, they've changed the factor for CO2 forcing 4 times, because every time they've done it, they've projected WAY too much warming...

Everlong,

Depending upon the type of eruption, volcanos can cause warming or cooling, or both in succession....In any case, more CO2 into atmosphere with healthy plants around simply means more plants and more O2 - which leads to larger plants, animals, and generally, a wonderful time...just see the dinosaur era, where CO2 was much higher and O2 much higher...

CO2 at large levels is typically a sign of huge plant killoff, usually caused by volcanos and the ensuing acid rain, as well as methane and water vapor forcing of temperature. With the plants dead, CO2 levels rise, as the plants aren't there to eat it. So, if you want to green the planet now, pump a bunch of CO2 into the air. This is, in fact, the plan NASA has for terraforming Mars....

Jonryker, tell that to Upconversion. He seems to think that volcanoes are responsible for only cooling. At least he didn't mention that they warm as well. I guess, according to him, we just need a bunch of eruptions and GW problem solved.

The ice is crumbling beneath my very feet today as well. It's summertime and it's dang hard to keep the ice in my pitcher of Margaritas from disappearing before my very eyes. Solution--drink faster... :)

We all can expect this sort of cult drivel in every media outlet and internet chat room from now until the libdems are voted out in 2010. It's all part of the master propaganda plan orchestrated by George Soros funded groups and Rahm in the White House. It got them elected and they hope the same misinformation will trick all of you dipsticks into believeing it. Don't look now but the daylight hours are SHRINKING more everyday!!!! Obamanation will help us if we just believe.....


Volcano eruptions put more CO2 into the atmosphere than all of our cars combined. They may cause cooling in some fashion but if we are to believe the GW advocates then the CO2 output alone would negate that cooling.

On average, volcanos emit 0.3 gigatons of CO2 a year, which is about 1% of the human emissions. They cause cooling because they create surface aresols which reflect incoming radiation. Large erruptions have the ability to have a profound cooling effect that can span many decades.

Sources: V. Hards, "Volcanic Contributions the the Global Carbon Cycle", British Geological Survey, 2005
G. A. Zielinski, Quaternary Science Reviews 19, 417 (2000)

And maybe I should have stated it better. Global warming scientists do not suggest that the recent warming could be just like all of the other warming the Earth has endured.

That's because it is different because there's an unprecedented amount of CO2 in the atmosphere. Furthermore, the rate that the concentration has changed is much faster than anything that is seen over the historical record. See the historical record here:

en.wikipedia.org (yes, it is wikipedia, but the sources are at the bottom of the page.)

You do realize that all they have are theories, right? They have no idea for the recent warming, it's all hypothesis. Yet they claim it as fact.

The best you can come up with in science is a theory. This is similar to when creationists say "evolution is just a theory". In a sense, they are correct, but making such a statement as a pejorative shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the scientific method.

AGW is not stated as fact. It's only stated as something that is very likely. In the IPCC's own words (from the fourth assessment report): "Most of the observed increase in globally averaged temperatures since the mid-20th century is very likely due to the observed increase in anthropogenic (human) greenhouse gas concentrations."

You people who think that we can save the planet from whatever it may ailing from do amaze me. What absolute arrogance you have.

I've maybe posted on here 8 times so far, so maybe you shouldn't presume to know about my political beliefs. Personally, I think the current attemps to do something about GW are futile for two reasons:

1. There is too much doubt surrounding the issue in the mind of the general public (as you can see from reading these boards, for example), for there to be any real political impetus to make a significant change.

2. The currently proposed schemes, even if implemented fully, won't make a significant enough change to sufficiently curb emissions.

I don't know if there is any satisfactory solution to the problem, but that has nothing to do with whether or not AGW is real.

And never mind the fact that every pro GW study that has been done has been rebutted and shown to have flaws.

You're saying each of the THOUSANDS of pro-GW peer-reviewed scientific studies have been rebutted? By who? In what forum did this happen? Do you have any conception of the sheer bulk of literature that you're claiming has been debunked?

Of course the ones who shun these studies are ridiculed, fired, and made out to be lunatics. If you don't buy into man made GW you are an outcast.

I don't accept that this is true. Maybe some examples of this would be helpful. Keep in mind that there's a difference between being unfairly shunned, and simply being wrong.

" It's all part of the master propaganda plan orchestrated by George Soros funded groups and Rahm in the White House."



In 1896?

"On the Influence of Carbonic Acid in the Air upon the Temperature of the Ground"

Arrhenius, Svante, 1896.
wiki.nsdl.org

Everlong - It was a figure of speech that I made.

You don't see how this gets you into trouble? Well, here, allow me to demonstrate. Here's another "figure of speech" of yours: Volcano eruptions put more CO2 into the atmosphere than all of our cars combined.

And... here's reality:

"Comparison of CO2 emissions from volcanoes vs. human activities.
Scientists have calculated that volcanoes emit between about 130-230 million tonnes (145-255 million tons) of CO2 into the atmosphere every year (Gerlach, 1999, 1991). This estimate includes both subaerial and submarine volcanoes, about in equal amounts. Emissions of CO2 by human activities, including fossil fuel burning, cement production, and gas flaring, amount to about 27 billion tonnes per year (30 billion tons) [ ( Marland, et al., 2006) - The reference gives the amount of released carbon (C), rather than CO2, through 2003.]. Human activities release more than 130 times the amount of CO2 emitted by volcanoes--the equivalent of more than 8,000 additional volcanoes like Kilauea (Kilauea emits about 3.3 million tonnes/year)! (Gerlach et. al., 2002)."

I don't have a link. It's on the IPCC website, or at least it used to be. Of course, they've changed the factor for CO2 forcing 4 times, because every time they've done it, they've projected WAY too much warming.

I suspect you're wrong about there being any one formula that the IPCC uses for temperature projections. My understanding is that the use an aggregate of the projections of many computer models. Which are quite complex and use many formulas.

Keep in mind that climate science, since it necessarily relies on computers because of the vast number of calculations necessary, is still a developing science. It's understandable then, that the IPCC does refine their projections every few years. However, they haven't reduced their projection of global temperature every year. In fact they increased it between the 1995 and 2001 reports.

As for their predictions, only their 1990 prediction war very far off. This was because it was immediately thrown off by the unexpected 1991 erruption of Mount Pinatubo, causing cooling.

"they've projected WAY too much warming"
[citation needed]


www.agu.org
Arctic sea ice decline: Faster than forecast

Science 26 April 2002:
Vol. 296. no. 5568, pp. 727 - 730
DOI: 10.1126/science.296.5568.727

Reports

Global Cooling After the Eruption of Mount Pinatubo: A Test of Climate Feedback by Water Vapor

www.sciencemag.org

From the paper: "Water vapor plays a key role in regulating Earth's climate. It is the dominant greenhouse gas (1) and provides the largest known feedback mechanism for amplifying climate change (2). Because the equilibrium vapor pressure of water increases rapidly with temperature, it is generally believed that the concentration of water vapor will rise as the atmosphere warms. If so, the added radiative absorption from water vapor will act to further amplify the initial warming. Current climate models suggest that this provides an important positive feedback, roughly doubling the sensitivity of the surface temperature to an increase in anthropogenic greenhouse gases (3-5). If the actual feedback by water vapor is substantially weaker than predicted by current models, both the magnitude of warming and range of uncertainty resulting from a doubling of CO2 would be substantially diminished (5)."
www.sciencemag.org

Fig. 4. Comparison of the satellite-observed (black) and model- predicted change in global-mean (90N-90S) lower tropospheric temperature for the standard GCM (blue) and the GCM without water vapor feedback (red). The observations are identical to those shown in Fig. 2. For clarity, we present only the ensemble-mean difference from each model of the three experiment pairs (Pinatubo - control). All curves are 7-month running means.
www.sciencemag.org

I don't know if there is any satisfactory solution to the problem, but that has nothing to do with whether or not AGW is real.

For me, this is where the rubber meets the road. I suspect we are closing the barn door after the carbon horse has bolted. Or, there's no way to get the carbon genie back in the bottle. Or something like that.

In our lust for cars, electricity, convenience, I would not be at all surprised if we kill the goose that's been laying the golden eggs upon which society has been built. I mean, come on, one little gold egg ain't gonna feed seven billion. What other outcome is possible in keeping with Capitalist dogma, which demands eternal growth?

To a degree this is steeped in religious tradition which indoctrinates generations with the belief that whatever is out there is ours for the taking -- and that it's been gifted to us by God. Manifest Destiny for example.

Our behavior in this regard is no different than a cancer patient who continues to smoke. (To take that analogy further, many in this thread don't even believe they have cancer.) Addictive behavior is not rational behavior. And humans, despite all their pretense and fancy words, are quite capable of forgoing rationality when it suits them. Witness the large number of people who affirmatively believe in astrology. Or think that the King James Bible is the literal word of God, when even the name of the book should be a pretty big clue that it's the agreed-upon word of men hired by King James.

Another symptom of this irrationality is a widespread belief that science and technology will always be able to invent a way out of the messes that prior science and technology created. What is it they say in the stock market? "Past performance is no guarantee of future results."

My advice? Ad astra per aspera. Or, to continue on our industrialist bent, do as the bumper sticker says: "Earth First! We can mine the other planets later."

snoofy,

when has the stock market failed to recover?

the population bomb predictions have not happened. population is stabilizing....even in growth areas, the growth rate is dropping....the culprit...prosperity....throug
hout history, wealth has brought dropping birthrates....wanna save the planet? develop, baby...develop.....

of course, greeny-animist acolytes take a different view, and are trying to use force, censorship, and "consencus" to underline the supposed legitimacy of their arguments...why won't The Great Gore debate?

The same progressives supported the "consencus" that whites were evolutionarily superior according to Darwin, everyone wanted to screw their own mother, according to Freud, communism was a viable economic theory, and that unborn babies are neither human nor alive....Well, they are consistent....but really, they don't fool me.

Nevertheless, GORE IS GREAT!

#189 - removed all doubt.

" removed all doubt "

You still had some?

"Proc. Natl Acad. Sci. USA 105, 1525815262 (2008)
Foreboding forecast

Even the most stringent of published climate mitigation measures may not avert dangerous climate change, shows a new analysis. An increase in global average surface temperature of 2 C above pre-industrial values is generally considered to be the level of warming that could have serious impacts and, as such, is to be avoided."

www.nature.com

We're at about +1.3C for now.

"A team of environmental researchers in the US has warned many effects of climate change are irreversible.

The scientists concluded global temperatures could remain high for 1,000 years, even if carbon emissions can somehow be halted. "
news.bbc.co.uk

Well duh.
As someone else alluded to: You can't put the oil back in the well.

when has the stock market failed to recover?

JonRyker, the Nikkei is about 10,000 today. They've had two decades to recover to their highs of 40,000 and it hasn't happened.

I'm not so sure that advance of technology reduces population growth. Farming, medicine, both of these have led to vast increases in human population. Were technology never exported, and its benefits extended to those without it, that might be the case. In other words, if you look at just the post-industrial age you might have a point.

Regardless, it is not the technologically backwards humans which are emitting the CO2. It is the ever-increasing number of "civilized" people who are doing it.

We've traded a population bomb for a carbon bomb.

Snoofy,

Farming itself led to a huge explosion in population. Development since has led to population decreases. Look at Japan, China, Russia, Europe, even this country. India is levelling off. People who do not farm for a living can not afford lots of children. For agrarian societies, children are like really helpful farm animals and guaranteed retirement. Once societies move past primarily agrarian, the pressure in inexorably down. Just check out the decline of classical Greece, Rome, and now Europe....

We're made of carbon. Plants eat CO2. It is not poison. In fact, from a global warming perspective, it is at least 15 times less lethal than water vapor. That's not even taking into account that the vast majority of CO2 is not human-generated. More co2 means more plants and more oxygen, which everybody likes....

Once again, this envirofascism is wrong on so many levels, it's difficult to know where to start. But, if everyone is ignorant, I guess they're easy to scare. Is this why those people are always so eagerly in favor of supporting and controlling public education?

People who do not farm for a living can not afford lots of children. For agrarian societies, children are like really helpful farm animals and guaranteed retirement.

I would say more like they don't require lots of free labor i.e. children. Given the wealth we have today, they could certainly afford them. Regardless, I agree with you.

That's not even taking into account that the vast majority of CO2 is not human-generated. More co2 means more plants and more oxygen, which everybody likes....

So you're saying doubling of atmospheric CO2 since the industrial revolution wasn't caused by humans? Or are the ice cores themselves wrong and CO2 hasn't actually increased (much)?

Snoofy,

No, CO2 is up, but temperature has not been steadily up. For 8 years now, it has dropped rather sharply. It has dropped many times along the way. CO2 is a trace gas. You can double it and its still not much. CO2 levels during the Triassic were 5 times what they are now....didn't seem to hurt life diversity or anything else...just think tropical biomes, and you will soon cease being afraid of global warming, if only it were happening....Really, water vapor and methane are much more important....

In fact, we are substantially colder than average for the last 600 million years, which is more or less the history of multi-celled life on this planet. Now, compared to the last 2 million years, which have been ice-dominated, we are a little warm...however, the dynamics are such that we are in ice mode...we've been bounced out of it by the Grand Solar Maximum and some ocean current shifts, but it's just a blip. The glaciers will return more often than not, as long as Antarctica is over a pole....quite a while yet.

If we could find a way to warm the planet, it would be good, because it is not coincidence that farming and civilization have arisen SINCE the ice last receded 10,000 years ago. It is due to return. Good luck to us then.

I've enjoyed our discussion. I appreciate your reasonable tone. Difficult to find here. Have a good weekend.

PS.. Go to www.scotese.edu or org and look at the temperature record for the last 600my and his explanation of the dynamics of it. He is just a professor, and not affiliated with anybody in particular. The site is informative and he fully lays out all his data-gathering methods....Have a nice weekend....

"For 8 years now, it has dropped rather sharply"

[citation needed]

data data.giss.nasa.gov

January through December averages last 8 years.
i179.photobucket.com

The years 1000 to 2000.

www.usgcrp.gov

last 400,000 years
www.sierraclub.ca

"Atmospheric carbon dioxide concentration is expected to exceed 500 parts per million and global temperatures to rise by at least 2C by 2050 to 2100, values that significantly exceed those of at least the past 420,000 years during which most extant marine organisms evolved."
www.sciencemag.org

Is expected...let me guess...IPCC projections based upon incorrect assumptions of CO2 forcing and a desperate need for global warming to exist...invariably straight-line extrapolations based upon short, relatively steep, cherry-picked samples....unconvincing, Zat...

source of data...

scienceandpublicpolicy.org

Zat (or anyone),

From the ice core record it's clear that higher temperatures are associated with higher levels of CO2.

What I don't see is evidence that forcing the CO2 side up drives the temperature up.

You see what I'm getting at? There hasn't been an event like the industrial revolution to double atmospheric CO2 in a few years, how much should we infer from what the ice cores say? Those give us the picture of a, ahem, "natural" oscillation, not the forced system we've got now.

(And, to stretch my spring analogy further, what happens when we drive CO2 well beyond the springy atmosphere's limits... and for that matter, what are the limits?)

Basically my question is: How good of a model do we have?

If you have a link or three which address this, I'd love to read them.

Basically my question is: How good of a model do we have?


VERY flawed and unreliable.

I guess I'll just take your word for it then, JeffJ. Glad we cleared that up.

Seriously, anyone?

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