this guy goes back a very long way!

Robert Strange McNamara - I wonder if he ever truly appreciated the human element in his equation-based universe. (Although, apparently, his longterm estrangement from his son mirrored the tensions of the time.) Too bad he never got around to apologizing and begging forgiveness for his conduct during the Vietnam War.

Too bad he never got around to apologizing and begging forgiveness for his conduct during the Vietnam War.
#2 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis

I thought he actually did do the mea culpa thing on that point?

He actually said that he considered himself a war criminal. He fully acknowledged the evil that the Vietnam War was.

may he rot in hell!

Hagbard and Danni may be right, but my memory bank just dredges up some non-apology apologies; for example, I've in mind his pullback from the brink of apology in Errol Morris's "Fog of War." And on the war criminal business, it's my recollection McNamara was referring to WW2 and a remark his commander Gen. Curtis LeMay made, to the effect that if the Japanese had won, he and McNamara -- both deeply involved in the massive fire bombing of Japanese civilian centers -- would have been tried as war criminals. I applaud much of what McNamara said in "Fog of War," by the way. But at the end he went into the old I-know-some-things-you-don't mode in evading Morris's deep-probe questions about 'Nam. That said, I think "Fog of War" is a remarkable -- and I mean that in the fullest possible sense of the word -- audio/visual historical document. At least we have that.

McNamara makes me want to be religious and believe in Heaven and Hell. May he roast if the fairy tale is true.

Most of us Viet Nam Vets have nothing but contempt for robert mcnamara. Rot in hell traitor!!!

How 'bout that, something that FWThom and I agree upon. McNamara got many of us KIA/WIA/MIA for no better reason that because he could.

The Fog of War was an intriguing self evaluation of his performance during the Vietnam War. That failure landed him in the World Bank.

Most of us Viet Nam Vets have nothing but contempt for robert mcnamara. Rot in hell traitor!!!

#9 | Posted by fwthom

The closest FourFThom ever got to VN came in a take-out bag.

"...failure landed him in the World Bank."

Me, too! Me, too! Don't forget me!
~Paul "The Iraqis'll Pay For It" Wolfowitz

wolfowith and mcnamra are two of the biggest pieces of shit this country has ever produced. disgusting

Most of us Viet Nam Vets have nothing but contempt for robert mcnamara. Rot in hell traitor!!!

#9 | Posted by fwthom

Yet you supported a party and administration that mirrored that era. Do you honestly believe that the servicemen and women dying in the Middle East right now are serving an any more honorable and just cause?

I could be wrong but that might have been the only real thing thom has ever written.

my dad is a veteran of vietnam and not a fan of this dude who died. he was drafted out of high school. lucky guy. he got a bunch of medals that he looks at every now and then. He likes to relate the story of picking up his best friend's helmet after an engagement and finding a piece of his brain in it. Its more of one of those stories you tell to see the reaction on people's face. That's how he made all his money probably-- being able to gauge people's reactions before making a business deal. he told me never to enlist in the army and if a draft ever came to move to switzerland or morocco-- his favorite vacation spots. he hates hot and swampy places naturally.

Unloading on McNamara is totally justified. That scorn should also be directed at the guy that appointed him...the deified JFK.

At least no one will ever be hung with the title, "Iraq-war-planner".

The line I remember from "Fog of War" is that sometimes you must do evil in order to do good. This doublethink line predicted torture and the whole gamut of other Bush era atrocities. herm

The line I remember from "Fog of War" is that sometimes you must do evil in order to do good.

Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

Isaiah 5:20

who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter?

Thats an interesting bit of micromanagement.

In other news, Keith Richards is still alive.

I'm proud of killing all those commie gooks. My complaint against mcnamara and lbj was that they wouldn't let us win in Vietnam because they were afraid of China and Russia. They were both cowardly democraps like jfk, carter and obama.

But you assign no blame to Nixon, the man who pulled you out and allowed Saigon to fall? Interesting narrow view of fault.

Thommy does NOT fault Repubbers, Kan. He still lives in a world of commie gooks. herm

"Fog of War" is a remarkable ... audio/visual historical document.

#6 | Posted by Doc_Sarvis

Yes it is. The movie is partly themed around eleven lessons learned from McNamara's and America's experience in Vietnam based on his 1995 book "In Retrospect". McNamara acknowledges the mistakes and regrets the loss of life but never quite gets round to apologizing for them. The movie was released in 2004 when Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld were busy repeating all or most of the mistakes but McNamara refuses to criticize any of them. His reason was that it was not proper to do so in time of war and you can't criticize him for that.

It's possible that Bush knew of McNamara but it's inlikely he knew of "In Retrospect" or the lessons of it. Not a detail man.

Rumsfeld and Cheney would have known of McNamara, his book and the lessons learned but arrogantly thought it had nothing useful to tell them. F_ You and Gee Willikers.

Eleven lessons from the Vietnam War

We misjudged then and we have since the geopolitical intentions of our adversaries and we exaggerated the dangers to the United States of their actions.

We viewed the people and leaders of South Vietnam in terms of our own experience We totally misjudged the political forces within the country.

We underestimated the power of nationalism to motivate a people to fight and die for their beliefs and values.

Our judgments of friend and foe, alike, reflected our profound ignorance of the history, culture, and politics of the people in the area, and the personalities and habits of their leaders.

We failed then and have since to recognize the limitations of modern, high-technology military equipment, forces, and doctrine.

We failed, as well, to adapt our military tactics to the task of winning the hearts and minds of people from a totally different culture.

We failed to draw Congress and the American people into a full and frank discussion and debate of the pros and cons of a large-scale military involvement before we initiated the action.

After the action got under way, and unanticipated events forced us off our planned course we did not fully explain what was happening, and why we were doing what we did.

We did not recognize that neither our people nor our leaders are omniscient. Our judgement of what is in another people's or country's best interest should be put to the test of open discussion in international forums. We do not have the God-given right to shape every nation in our image or as we choose.

We did not hold to the principle that U.S. military action should be carried out only in conjunction with multinational forces supported fully (and not merely cosmetically) by the international community.

We failed to recognize that in international affairs, as in other aspects of life, there may be problems for which there are no immediate solutions At times, we may have to live with an imperfect, untidy world.

and we never got access to the damn oil fields on the coast!!!

At least "we" did in Iraq!

Iran's next ~ folks!

GHOTI

"But you assign no blame to Nixon, the man who pulled you out and allowed Saigon to fall? Interesting narrow view of fault."

That fall couldn't have anything to do with the democrat congress cutting off all funding could it? read up on it why don't you?

If I wasn't an atheist, I would be saying that he is probably burning in hell right now.

Don't worry ~ Swedenborg is taking good care of him right now

"But you assign no blame to Nixon, the man who pulled you out and allowed Saigon to fall? Interesting narrow view of fault."

That fall couldn't have anything to do with the democrat congress cutting off all funding could it?

I think Nixon's surrender to the viet cong had more to do with it. The South was fucked the minute Nixon ran up the white flag.

Thank god he's gone. He screwed up everything he touched.

#33

He invented seat belts.

#34

Or, he was at least one of the brains behind the invention of the seat belt and in making cars safer. Too bad he couldn't at least resign after LBJ told him they were going to "stay the course" - in The Fog of War, they play some audiotapes of his conversations with Kennedy and with LBJ, and the change in attitude toward a pull-out after Kennedy was taken out.

He definitely got choked up when he admitted his regrets about the whole situation. I can never truly understand what it must have been like to be in his situation, and I don't think anyone can unless they were him. So, it didn't really anger me that he didn't totally apologize.

The most interesting thing in "Fog of War" was mickeymousekamara admitting that he and Gen Curtis Lemay were responsible for fire-bombing 55 cities in Japam and killing more civilians than we did dropping the two atomic bombs. Mickey says that it is lucky we won or Gen Lemay and mickey himse;f would have been charged with war crimes if we had lost the war against the Japs.

Mickey says that it is lucky we won or Gen Lemay and mickey himse;f would have been charged with war crimes if we had lost the war against the Japs.

I think Churchill said the same thing about the bombing of Germany.

To the victor goes the pardons.

McNamara's efforts re Nam were an example of what happens when a planner or analyst relies on numbers (and weapons capabilities) and disregards the human element. A lesson our military hadn't learned until the surge in Iraq - and I think even that hasn't sunk in.

The CIA went through a long period of reliance on such considerations, again excluding the human element. And were bitten big time by both the fall of the Soviet Union and by Iraq. I wonder how much of a lesson they've learned.

Can someone please explaon the 'Vietnam War' etiquette when it comes to questioning the War?

FWTHOM can do it but if John Kerry does it, he a traitor in FWThoms eyes?

Someone please explain who is and who is not allowed to question the motives behind the war. The flip-flopping would almost be comical if wasn't so serious.

#24 | Posted by fwthom| Flag: Delusional

Is this the guy that was killed by his 20 year old mistress? I don't follow baseball...

It would be interesting to use the technology we have today to determine exactly "who" has profited (financially speaking) from every war since WWI.

The jews!
-Manypaths

Someone please explain who is and who is not allowed to question the motives behind the war.

I agree but lets be sensible. Our govt isn't going to start making weapons and it will always have to purchase billions of $$ worth of goods and services from private suppliers.

these same suppliers are going to support someone for political office at any given time. Keep in mind that virtually all of our politicians are going to accept support from those who are willing to offer it.

the problem is that some people here think they are special because they have read too many spy novels and watched JFK pointing to the military industrial complex being behind every conspiracy.

It would be interesting to use the technology we have today to determine exactly "who" has profited (financially speaking) from every war since WWI.

The Swedes have done alright. Being neutral means you double your market.

Mostly though, the same guys have been pretty consistent in living off the military/industrial complex.

The main gun on the Abrams is manufactured by the same company that built the main gun for the WW2 Panzer. Not a major market, but nice to see the circle of death keeps rolling along....

You Libs are too funny, BMW and Mercedes made Engines for everything from Stuka Dive Bombers to Tiger Tanks, But you don't have any problem salivating over those "circle of death" items. McNamara was also instrumental in giving Kennedy sage advice during the cuban Missle crisis. I am sure He rfegrets some of his Vietnam era mistakes, But when you lefties just decide someone is EVIL becuase he made mistakes, you really show your ignorance and your failure to actually research an historical subject. Like the last fad of your 'Columbus was a mass murderer" I loved that one, Just so you could get in good with the injuns and hispanics.

whoa

remember all you folks

he was a democrat wasnt he??

doesnt that wash him of all evils

You Libs are too funny, BMW and Mercedes made Engines for everything from Stuka Dive Bombers to Tiger Tanks, But you don't have any problem salivating over those "circle of death" items.

It's mostly the righties here who worship the non-American autos, Hillbilly. Cause they don't involve nasty UAW guys.
But you are right. From SKF to BMW to Mitsubushi to Ford, win or lose, war has been good for their bottom lines...

Most of us Viet Nam Vets have nothing but contempt for robert mcnamara. Rot in hell traitor!!!

#9 | Posted by fwthom

WELL SAID.

Yet you supported a party and administration that mirrored that era.

#15 | Posted by TFDNihilist

That would be the DEMs. Johnson's big lie about the Gulf of Tonkin did it. I guess all you old farts remember good old LBJ.

Hell sure is getting crowded. Michael Jackson, MacNamara.....

"Hell sure is getting crowded. Michael Jackson, MacNamara....." ronald reagan, richard nixon, joe mccarthy...

LBJ democrap is the asshole who drafted my ass in June of 1968. I wish he would have told us that we were fighting a war that he wouldn't let us win because he was afraid of China and Russia. He is rotting in hell with McNamara. And the whole cowardly democrap Congress who didn't have the balls to declare a War in Vietnam is down there too.

Could be Partial Obituary (in his own words):
In his 1995 memoir of the war, "In Retrospect: The Tragedy and Lessons of Vietnam," McNamara said he and his senior colleagues were "wrong, terribly wrong" to pursue the war as they did. He acknowledged that he failed to force the military to produce a rigorous justification for its strategy and tactics, misunderstood Asia in general and Vietnam in particular, and kept the war going long after he realized it was futile because he lacked the courage or the ability to turn Johnson around.

He elaborated on Vietnam and the other events that shaped his life in Errol Morris's Academy Award-winning documentary "The Fog of War: Eleven Lessons From the Life of Robert S. McNamara" (2003). He described how as a young man he had analyzed bombing operations under the command of Gen. Curtis LeMay during World War II and in that job played a role in making the firebombing of dozens of Japanese cities "more efficient."

"We burned to death 100,000 Japanese civilians in Tokyo -- men, women and children," he told Morris. "LeMay recognized that what he was doing would be thought immoral if his side had lost," he added.

Let's honor one of the Fathers of US False Flag Terror operations - - Gulf of Tonkin mastermind.

Hope they Cremate you in Napalm Robbie!!!

Yes McNamara was a War Criminal but he was an "American" War Criminal and so he had total US Govt provided "Immunity" just like Henry Kissinger and Dubya Bush,Dick Cheney,Rumsfeld etc. - Wow what a Hell of a Great Country for War Mongers!!!

Johnson's big lie about the Gulf of Tonkin did it. I guess all you old farts remember good old LBJ.

#50 | Posted by Sniper

Yup. LBJ was the father of "Saddam has WMD". So does that make him as great as Dubya, or Dubya as evil as him?

I guess you forget nor. Most of the civilized world believed Sadam had the weapons. I guess you forget that he used poison gas on his own people along with the dips from Iran. I guess you forget he had terrorist training camps in Iraq. I guess you have a real selective memory.

Most of the civilized world believed Sadam had the weapons.- No, they didn't which is why they opposed invasion. Even the IAEA said he had none.

I guess you forget that he used poison gas on his own people along with the dips from Iran.- in the 80's using weapons Reagan sold him, not ones he made.

I guess you forget he had terrorist training camps in Iraq.- no, he didn't. Those were in the Kurd areas. He feared terrorists overthrowing him.

I guess you have a real selective memory.- It seems you do.

Bullshit on all of your talking points Kanrei.

The rest of the world DID believe Saddam had WMD, because he did.

And Saddam used poison gas he had aquired from the Soviets, through connections in Europe, to gas his own people.

You are reading talking points from left wingers who confuse the facts and run them together to fool people who still support Saddams regime.

And Saddam was the biggest supporter of suicide bombers in Israel killing 100's if not 1000's of innocent jews. (guess you forgot about that)

I have no idea why you still continue to raise the banner of the psychopathic serial killer Saddam Hussein.

You don't have a selective memory, you have revisionist history.

"Bullshit on all of your talking points Kanrei.

The rest of the world DID believe Saddam had WMD, because he did.

And Saddam used poison gas he had aquired from the Soviets, through connections in Europe, to gas his own people."

Bullshit right back.

Some people believed that, not "the rest of the world". And we have since learned from a number of reports that there was significant skepticism in the world intelligence community about the accuracy of those reports.

Yes, we know he had chemical weapons at one time, but no one knew if he still did.

Sorry you feel that speaking truth = "raising the banner of Saddam". That is a typical narrow-minded, partisan attitude.

"The rest of the world DID believe Saddam had WMD, because he did."

Not at the time of invasion and occupation. The shells found were a decade old and relatively useless. How can it be a WMD if it has no capabilities for the "M" or the "D"?

How sick and sad.

How eagerly you raise your facile hands while throwing out laughable conjecture in support of the genocidal killer Saddam.

Somewhere in hell Saddam is thanking you for taking up his cause, because you are acting as defacto attorneys for the dead mass murderer.

You two sick humps should be proud of yourselves.

"The rest of the world DID believe Saddam had WMD"

Amazing that this bs is still floating around. Especially since the press in most Western European countries has researched this issue and revealed it to be untrue. If one speaks to people in the street in Europe, they are amazed that we believe this at the time of the invasion. They also display amazement that we have such trouble differentiating between 1998 and 12/2002.